Was thinking about making a thread about this for a while which would go into a little more detail. It was a good thing in my opinion as you… more need characters that are a driving force in the game that contribute to the drama, with the knowledge that not everyone will like them. Like Dan said - it's gonna be hard for them to make another character like Kenny. Almost impossible for season 3 I think, given the shorter episodes. The most important thing is to get a lot of audience members to care about the character. You need to do more than just have a broken, angry guy (Conrad) or some badass redneck with a beard (Tripp).
Kenny is a man who from talks with him during the 2 seasons was a man who absentmindedly loved his family, but preferred his time on his boat fishing and having his freedom. This is not to say he was not a good man, I think as a character he was. But he let work be an excuse to keep family life at a distance.
When shit went down, and one of those things tried to grab Duck, he was suddenly reminded what family was. The idea of his boy being killed awoke a strong paternal feeling in him.
FAMILY>group. This is Kenny...I have thought about this...if they had made it to a boat and gotten out to sea...say a storm hits and the ship is damaged...it can only holdsafely 4-5...I think he would actually force everyone off the ship besides himself and Kat and Duck. because FAMILY trumps all else. His family trumped Lilly's family in that meat locker...and if Lee did not back his play...there are times he would let Lee die...because Lee put FAMILY at risk.
This goes into season 2...Sarita is Kenny's FAMILY....Kenny shot people...did not care as much that hostages could be killed as long as there was a chance to save his family. He takes AJ as a replacement for family...also Clem. Once again group needs and desires do not matter if they differ to his idea on how to keep his family safe. (Understandable if a bit prickish)
Kenny is a man you can relate to because he is trying to keep his family alive....he is a man you can detest because he is wiling to hurt other people to achieve that goal. He also has a knack for thinking he is the smartest person in the group and not listening to good advice.
As my name suggests...I do not think he should have returned in S2....he had a perfect character arc in s1. S1 he was an amazing character...oh sure he was a dick to Lilly...and I gleefully beat his ass as Lee...and loved Molly getting him...but he was a great character none the less...I teared up when he lost his family and was sad when he died giving Ben a better death than he deserved.
So can they make another Kenny? Sure...but not this season...you need 5 episodes and long ones at that to build up a character like him...or like Lee...or even Clementine. Short episodes hurt your ability to create multi-layered characters. If anything I hope Telltale learns from this season that developing characters is more than showing us a 5-10 minute backstory.
To all "Kensplainers" as I've heard you called, but particularly dan290786, wdfan, OneWayNoWay, NorthStars, BroKenny, @TWDazehnuu, @TheAutis… moreticGamer, @Deltino, and @UrbanRodrik
I've heard you all praise Kenny as probably the best character, in part because he is so controversial, a scene stealer, and a “living legend.” While I don’t know if I’d say that is a good thing, personally, I couldn’t help but wonder with the way things have been playing out with recent installments, how do you guys think another character on a similar level as him could come to be? Like, I’m legitimately curious: what, from a base level, made him work the way he did and how could similar energy go into creating another character along his line?
EDIT: For what it's worth at this point, I'd like to clarify that I didn't necessarily mean a Kenny clone--Lord knows we've had way too many of those already. I meant a character that might be worth talking about in-depth and that whatever else he's known for.
Nah they won't make another like him. Like i said, Telltale are terrible now compared to then. Characters don't get enough or any character development. What do we truly know about Alvin and Rebecca? Apart from Alvin murdering a guy called George in cold blood, what do we really know about him? What did he do before the ZA? How did him and Rebecca meet? We got small background info on Nick and Luke's relationship, that they had known each other for 20 years was it? And that Luke went to college. Obviously Jane's background was all focused on her and her sister but what else do we know? Not much else apart from the story she told of a group she was with before.
The development is there to show but could have had so much more emphasis on it all.
I will bite.
First you have to look at the Kenny character.
Kenny is a man who from talks with him during the 2 seasons was a man who … moreabsentmindedly loved his family, but preferred his time on his boat fishing and having his freedom. This is not to say he was not a good man, I think as a character he was. But he let work be an excuse to keep family life at a distance.
When shit went down, and one of those things tried to grab Duck, he was suddenly reminded what family was. The idea of his boy being killed awoke a strong paternal feeling in him.
FAMILY>group. This is Kenny...I have thought about this...if they had made it to a boat and gotten out to sea...say a storm hits and the ship is damaged...it can only holdsafely 4-5...I think he would actually force everyone off the ship besides himself and Kat and Duck. because FAMILY trumps all else. His family trumped Lilly's family in that meat locker...and if Lee did not back… [view original content]
Bit late to the party, but my computer was fucked for awhile, and when I'm called out, I usually just prefer to respond than not at all.
So, anyway, I'd have to agree with what Dan and the others have said. I don't see Telltale, in their current position, writing a character as layered or as engaging as Kenny again. That's not because they're incapable of doing so. I'm sure there's plenty of very talented writers in Telltale, but It's because, since the last season of the Walking Dead, Telltale's end game has changed. They've proven that they're more interested in popping out several releases in one year, to make more money, rather than to take time and to create genuine decent material. The episodes are considerably shorter, making less time for development and their characters in general have been striped of much of what makes a character work.
That's very much evident in the characters of season 3. I've yet to play episode 3, but just from my opinion on the cast of the season thus far, they're all lacking in complexities, actual motivations and personal attachments of their own, and distinctive flaws that can create real conflict. Kenny worked so well in season 1 because we always had the ability to agree or to disagree with him, to butt heads or to form a companionship. We had the ability to work with him towards his goal or to go against it. It made him feel more real. He had his own family, people he cared about that we mightn't have the same feelings for, making him far more fleshed out then just being a background character who's only there to serve our protagonist's mission. The characters of this season are falling into that latter category. Outside of Conrad, who lacks in having developed a personality for us to care about, most of the main cast are just there to support Javier and to be allies. It makes them seem a lot more bare, more basic and less intriguing, overall.
But, that's not to say the writers couldn't write another Kenny. Telltale, when in the right mindset, can and could create excellent characters. All it takes is just a little extra dose of effort. Unfortunately, though, it appears that they're lacking in such.
To all "Kensplainers" as I've heard you called, but particularly dan290786, wdfan, OneWayNoWay, NorthStars, BroKenny, @TWDazehnuu, @TheAutis… moreticGamer, @Deltino, and @UrbanRodrik
I've heard you all praise Kenny as probably the best character, in part because he is so controversial, a scene stealer, and a “living legend.” While I don’t know if I’d say that is a good thing, personally, I couldn’t help but wonder with the way things have been playing out with recent installments, how do you guys think another character on a similar level as him could come to be? Like, I’m legitimately curious: what, from a base level, made him work the way he did and how could similar energy go into creating another character along his line?
EDIT: For what it's worth at this point, I'd like to clarify that I didn't necessarily mean a Kenny clone--Lord knows we've had way too many of those already. I meant a character that might be worth talking about in-depth and that whatever else he's known for.
Who is your favorite villain? What is it about them that makes them stand out to you? What do you like to see in villains in general? And what kind of villain would you like to see in the future?
Hey, if you got something to talk about and a good place to talk about it, might as well use what you got. Granted, no one's really discussing anyone of the questions proposed, but I'm stingy with threads anyway.
On that note, the episode rewrite thread is undoubtedly my most popular.
I recall you mentioning that one of your issues with Javier was that he is yet another emotional protagonist rather than a logical one. How does this apply to the previous characters and what would a good logical protagonist be like to you?
Hey, I know some of ya'll tired of seeing this thread get spammed to the top every once in a while, but it's tailor made of inquiring about characterization and it's effect on the audience. So here's something I wrote up on Clementine:
What makes Clementine "Clementine", and why do YOU like her?
To answer me own question, Clementine is, in a way, the heart of The Walking Dead's Game Series. Not in that she's a mascot or one of the most popular characters, mind you, but in that she represents that quality of relatively likable, but flawed human beings living in a post-apocalyptic world. Clementine was a little girl who is kindhearted, resourceful, compassionate, and very mature for her age but still somewhat prone to some of the shortcomings expected of a child like naivete, emotional weakness, "smallness," and occasional moments of immaturity. However, while she's normally very polite and soft-spoken, she is not afraid to speak her mind in matters that genuinely elicit her concern, will get involved in dangerous situation in an effort to protect those around her, and will even occasionally go against authority if it means doing what she feels is the right thing. She tends to draw line at swearing, stealing, killing when not in defense of someone's life, and turning your back on your friends and family. These traits make her a very likable member of whatever group she's in and even her enemies and those who have reason to be against her express their interest in her.
I guess this, in a way, does make her the mascot of the Walking Dead Games.
There is no such thing. A protagonist in an apocalypse story is not a logical robot...if all they did was do the logical thing all the time...there would be no conflict. Even if they started out logical..take Roland from King's Dark Tower series...he broke from doing the purely logical safe things because he was interacting with other humans...and humans are random...they get into trouble...perhaps they are inexperienced.
Sure there are always going to be times when a protagonist needs to keep cool and logical...but then there is a lack of conflict or they just become some boring asshole who watches the world burn down around them.
To @IronWoodLover, though @Auruo, @Louche, @MarijaaNo7, @BetterToSleep, @prink34320, and maybe other Lily fans may also have some input on t… morehis as well,
I recall you mentioning that one of your issues with Javier was that he is yet another emotional protagonist rather than a logical one. How does this apply to the previous characters and what would a good logical protagonist be like to you?
Okay, so this is a writing based question I've been wanting to talk about in a bigger, more focused topic, but I suppose I can post it now:
Where do you draw the line between obvious writing choices and logical conclusions where characters are concerned?
Do you think the Walking Dead's writers struggle with this distinction often or at least recently?
What are some examples of this?
Do you think the writers fully know a general idea what they want a character to be when they create/write them or do you think are afraid to define them to much in case plans change?
Remember Azula?
One of the main villains, and yet by the end of the show came off extremely sympathetic because of her need for power… more and all the pressure she felt as a child. It was relatable, interesting, and distinctive because it could happen to anyone in a large amount of power to fall under those temptations. It, of course, drove her to madness and made me genuinely sad.
But hold on, A New Frontier has a guy who grabs a child out of nowhere and threatens to kill him if you don't go along with his plan to sacrifice another child to a horrible fate cause fuck subtlety.
Azula is an interesting character. Especially how she climbs back towards sanity over time.
She has been interesting as sane and insane.
To be honest, she is probably the best character in the series.
Really? You never got that self-insert-esque vibe from her prominence and treatment?
Or are you specifically referring to my hesitance towards the whole "Bitter Chick was Raped Once" trope?
Hey, foq u, okay? It ain't my fault the executives decided to push Jane so hard at the expense of much nicer characters who'd been there longer and had more to do with the story, as well as make her embody so many stereotypes and unfortunate implications. I'm simply pointing out that the "All Bitter Women are Rape Victims" cliche is kinda cheap, overdone, and quite frankly offensive. Sometimes a bitch is just a woman in a bad mood.
Carver and Rebecca also partially bother me in that regard, bordering on Lifetime Movie of the Week shit with Walker Texas Ranger thrown in.
Kenny actually had time to have redeemable qualities for his flaws, had time to actually explain his actions and apologize to Clem about the wrong actions he did. None of the characters that people keep comparing to Kenny like David or Tripp had that or as complex as a character as he was. If telltale continues with these types of personalities there won't be another character like Kenny worth forgiving in-game.
To all "Kensplainers" as I've heard you called, but particularly dan290786, wdfan, OneWayNoWay, NorthStars, BroKenny, @TWDazehnuu, @TheAutis… moreticGamer, @Deltino, and @UrbanRodrik
I've heard you all praise Kenny as probably the best character, in part because he is so controversial, a scene stealer, and a “living legend.” While I don’t know if I’d say that is a good thing, personally, I couldn’t help but wonder with the way things have been playing out with recent installments, how do you guys think another character on a similar level as him could come to be? Like, I’m legitimately curious: what, from a base level, made him work the way he did and how could similar energy go into creating another character along his line?
EDIT: For what it's worth at this point, I'd like to clarify that I didn't necessarily mean a Kenny clone--Lord knows we've had way too many of those already. I meant a character that might be worth talking about in-depth and that whatever else he's known for.
Kenny actually had time to have redeemable qualities for his flaws, had time to actually explain his actions and apologize to Clem about the… more wrong actions he did. None of the characters that people keep comparing to Kenny like David or Tripp had that or as complex as a character as he was. If telltale continues with these types of personalities there won't be another character like Kenny worth forgiving in-game.
One of the reasons why I praise Kenny so much is because how invested Telltale got me into him. He's around for 2 seasons straight. He's by our side, even if he's determinately mad at Lee, he always stays loyal, never betrays the group, and despite the short-term consequences, all of his actions are done for the cheesy but accurate "greater good." It was Season 2 that got me so heavily attached to Kenny. I'm not blind in the fact that he was different. But, it's the apocalypse, and that man has lost a lot more than most people ever have. It wouldn't be normal for him NOT to be changing. Kenny always did his best to protect Clementine, a little girl we've basically watched grow up in a cruel world. Her parents are gone, so Kenny & Lee both have done their best to give her a father figure and protect her no matter what. I love Season 2 for the fact that in my playthroughs, my Clem sees this and doesn't give up on Kenny, no matter what.
To address your point, what's special about Kenny is, like a lot of things, hard to explain. He's not perfect, but that fact makes me love him even more. The fact that I love him as much as I do makes it nearly impossible in my mind for Telltale to make a character with the same energy and feeling about them. Sure, there have been other characters I've cared about. But, because of how long Kenny has been around, the people he has lost, and the things he's done, it's made me so attached to him that I don't believe I will ever be as attached to any other video game character.
Again, apologies for not seeing this when it was originally posted.
To all "Kensplainers" as I've heard you called, but particularly dan290786, wdfan, OneWayNoWay, NorthStars, BroKenny, @TWDazehnuu, @TheAutis… moreticGamer, @Deltino, and @UrbanRodrik
I've heard you all praise Kenny as probably the best character, in part because he is so controversial, a scene stealer, and a “living legend.” While I don’t know if I’d say that is a good thing, personally, I couldn’t help but wonder with the way things have been playing out with recent installments, how do you guys think another character on a similar level as him could come to be? Like, I’m legitimately curious: what, from a base level, made him work the way he did and how could similar energy go into creating another character along his line?
EDIT: For what it's worth at this point, I'd like to clarify that I didn't necessarily mean a Kenny clone--Lord knows we've had way too many of those already. I meant a character that might be worth talking about in-depth and that whatever else he's known for.
There is no such thing. A protagonist in an apocalypse story is not a logical robot...if all they did was do the logical thing all the time… more...there would be no conflict. Even if they started out logical..take Roland from King's Dark Tower series...he broke from doing the purely logical safe things because he was interacting with other humans...and humans are random...they get into trouble...perhaps they are inexperienced.
Sure there are always going to be times when a protagonist needs to keep cool and logical...but then there is a lack of conflict or they just become some boring asshole who watches the world burn down around them.
I doubt Jane would be that delicate...if they had gone the route of having her abused by Troy which is where her shooting him in the dick ca… moreme from...it probably would have made her disgust with Kenny another violent man more believable. Instead the writers went with...HEY...THEY FIGHT!!!
Would she try to hide her pain, put on a mask, figuratively, but you trigger her; like, if you touch her or have a kleenex, bc it remind her of chloroform?
Does getting a panic attack give one character development?
In a choice based game, that's difficult to explain, especially keeping in mind the different perceptions of logic and how it's realistic for situations to force emotional reactions out of protagonists, even when they can decide on how to react.
Although I don't recall ever complaining about Javier being an overly emotional protagonist, emotion is pretty much a necessity, no matter how logical a person is, they will still have emotions, otherwise they are dull. Personally I don't have much of a gripe with Javier since most of his actions are dependent on the player, I think one of the good things about ANF was how they handled Javier but in my opinion there's always a degree of dullness when playing a protagonist who's reactions are dictated by the player.
In terms of a generally good character who's logical, I suppose it could be one who keeps their emotions in check and thinks about the possible consequences of their actions, someone who doesn't automatically trust strangers and someone who knows how to effectively survive in an environment they've been in for several years.
To @IronWoodLover, though @Auruo, @Louche, @MarijaaNo7, @BetterToSleep, @prink34320, and maybe other Lily fans may also have some input on t… morehis as well,
I recall you mentioning that one of your issues with Javier was that he is yet another emotional protagonist rather than a logical one. How does this apply to the previous characters and what would a good logical protagonist be like to you?
Why do I like her? Well, playing the first Season of The Walking Dead Game as the protagonist Lee, I was drawn into the world, story and characters and felt Lee's responsibility over caring for Clementine, at first it was more so paternal instincts that kicked in that helped me care about her character but over the course of the game I started to like Clementine as her own character, without her attachment to Lee. In my opinion, she's the main reason that made the season emotional and it was her reactions and actions that seemed to define the course of the story, so she was also an important character. The biggest draw towards Clementine for me was that it felt like it was her story, although we played as Lee, we guided her through a zombified world, we watched her grow, become braver, more useful but most importantly, we were still reminded that she was just a child, still searching for her mommy and daddy, she's experienced traumatic events and sees the very people near and dear to her die without being able to do anything and the best part of her character is that she learns from her experiences.
Going into Season two, we see how she's learned. She no longer relies on the trust of others to ensure her own survival, she acts on her own, she's willing to risk getting killed if it meant she could live another day, in hopes to reconnect with those she had lost but best of all, she continues going through hell without purpose and with only little motivation, she's become a more saddened character who rarely smiles but she still pushes forward, she has the will to live in hopes to find happiness that I admire so much about her character. Her character felt so mature and it made sense considering everything she'd been through and it especially showed when she interacted with almost everyone else. She had little to no fear facing a menace like Carver, she manages to become more of the caretaker of the group and when people underestimate her, she uses that to her advantage. In all honesty, I feel like Clementine was more of a logical protagonist rather than an emotional one but it felt like she had penned up emotions inside of her that she wasn't sure how to express, which is why in moments like when Kenny blamed her for Sarita's death/state, we could see she felt terrible, she was the saddest she'd ever been at this point in the season and I feel like the expressed emotions weren't solely over Kenny's anger or Clementine blaming herself for Sarita's death but more so opening a wound from when Clementine unintentionally caused Lee to die and she's stated in this season that she killed Lee, which makes the whole scene all the more emotional in my opinion.
Sorry for getting a little carried away at the end lol but I felt the need to include her emotional state.
Hey, I know some of ya'll tired of seeing this thread get spammed to the top every once in a while, but it's tailor made of inquiring about … morecharacterization and it's effect on the audience. So here's something I wrote up on Clementine:
What makes Clementine "Clementine", and why do YOU like her?
To answer me own question, Clementine is, in a way, the heart of The Walking Dead's Game Series. Not in that she's a mascot or one of the most popular characters, mind you, but in that she represents that quality of relatively likable, but flawed human beings living in a post-apocalyptic world. Clementine was a little girl who is kindhearted, resourceful, compassionate, and very mature for her age but still somewhat prone to some of the shortcomings expected of a child like naivete, emotional weakness, "smallness," and occasional moments of immaturity. However, while she's normally very polite and soft-spoken, she is not afraid to speak her min… [view original content]
I would actually prefer him to be MORE emotional, if my main character isn't invested in what's going on, why should I be? Javier's actor does a good job, but he needed direction to bring it out more, or maybe it's the fault of the game's choice system where you'll have a character be really emotional for one line of dialogue then revert back to a "Default" state.
This was my main gripe with Lee, he was always way too calm and collected about what was going on. Dude was a fucking teacher, not a marine, what's with the hard-ass attitude?
To @IronWoodLover, though @Auruo, @Louche, @MarijaaNo7, @BetterToSleep, @prink34320, and maybe other Lily fans may also have some input on t… morehis as well,
I recall you mentioning that one of your issues with Javier was that he is yet another emotional protagonist rather than a logical one. How does this apply to the previous characters and what would a good logical protagonist be like to you?
I think that they generally have ideas what they want to do with a character and how certain scenarios would play out with them but as plans change they don't have much time to reinvent them, instead resorting to brand new characters (like Ralph>Mike, Luke vs Kenny>Jane vs Kenny). Telltale have never been quite sure what direction they want to take their stories since after Season 1 and it shows because you seem to think one thing about a character only for it to be changed in the next episode or forgotten about completely.
I think Luke is one of the perfect examples of this, his personality makes total sense if you factor in how he was supposed to be 'Clementine's Clementine', since he's basically a take on what the average person would think about the zombie apocalypse and he would be a source of conflict for your actions throughout the story. As is, he feels like a remnant of that storyline and doesn't have many, if any, flaws to speak of because he wasn't supposed to have flaws in the first place. Carlos is another good example who feels like he was supposed to have a Kennyesque attitude of doing anything to protect Sarah from what he viewed as harmful to point of it being unreasonable but come episode 3 that aspect seems to have disappeared completely and he just sort of slots into the background.
Do you think the writers fully know a general idea what they want a character to be when they create/write them or do you think are afraid to define them to much in case plans change?
Why do I like her? Well, playing the first Season of The Walking Dead Game as the protagonist Lee, I was drawn into the world, story and cha… moreracters and felt Lee's responsibility over caring for Clementine, at first it was more so paternal instincts that kicked in that helped me care about her character but over the course of the game I started to like Clementine as her own character, without her attachment to Lee. In my opinion, she's the main reason that made the season emotional and it was her reactions and actions that seemed to define the course of the story, so she was also an important character. The biggest draw towards Clementine for me was that it felt like it was her story, although we played as Lee, we guided her through a zombified world, we watched her grow, become braver, more useful but most importantly, we were still reminded that she was just a child, still searching for her mommy and daddy, she's experienced traumatic events… [view original content]
Yeah and I believe ANF is a case of them not really being able to hold onto that, since characters like Tripp in particular don't really seem to have that much.
That's a really good question.
I think that they generally have ideas what they want to do with a character and how certain scenarios wou… moreld play out with them but as plans change they don't have much time to reinvent them, instead resorting to brand new characters (like Ralph>Mike, Luke vs Kenny>Jane vs Kenny). Telltale have never been quite sure what direction they want to take their stories since after Season 1 and it shows because you seem to think one thing about a character only for it to be changed in the next episode or forgotten about completely.
I think Luke is one of the perfect examples of this, his personality makes total sense if you factor in how he was supposed to be 'Clementine's Clementine', since he's basically a take on what the average person would think about the zombie apocalypse and he would be a source of conflict for your actions throughout the story. As is, he feels like a remnant of that storyline and do… [view original content]
I've been meaning to respond to this for a while. For me the character has to have understandable motivations and actions. It isn't as important whether they are good or bad. I can appreciate a bad guy or girl that is written well. I'm not a fan of "I want to rule the world cuz I'm EVIL muahaha" villains. Carver and Joan are good examples of what NOT to do. They had workable motivations but Telltale half a**ed developing them to the point they come off as cartoon villains. The Stranger was a great villian because his motivation wasn't slap dashed together and you could sympathise with him even though he was an antagoinst. Conversely good people, gone wrong characters are something I enjoy. This is why Kenny and Lilly are great characters and some others had the potential to be. Last but not least is characters who I can relate to on a personal level even if I don't like them exactly. Sarah, Bonnie, and Kate are examples. Like if you've been in similar situations or have traits in common then you would recognise the nuance and realism in these characters and their actions and reactions and understand that Telltale pulled off something difficult with grace. As for characters I can't get invested in, besides the outright evil underdeveloped ones I mentioned, characters who don't have much screentime (not really their fault), or are too vanilla or are like the token badass....probably why I didn't like Molly, Jane, or this season's Clem.
I do not exactly want a 100% logical robot protagonist as Kennyshouldadiedins1 said.
I for one would just prefer that Telltale stopped with these emotional train wrecks who just charge into problems without a second thought or proper planning. For example, in Above The Law instead of just mindlessly attacking Max, Lonnie, and Badger, why not just keep hidden, wait for them to go and then figure out a plan to take Joan out - it would be literally inverting the roles and giving us the advantage over her. But what do our protagonists do instead? They charge in, attempt to kill the raiders, fail miserably at it since they chose to warn them of their presence first, and end up giving Joan the upper hand - which ultimately gets us jailed by her. It's just we don't have an option to be cunning, it's frustrating.
Furthermore, I would also like if options to prioritize ends over means appeared more often - options to be ruthless. An example of a good, ruthless, ends over means protagonist is a Renegade Commander Shepard from the Mass Effect Trilogy. Obviously, I do not want a protagonist forced onto being immoral to achieve a certain goal every single time or for this theme to be forced. It should be optional, a choice maybe. There has to be a good reason to ever be immoral, and it shouldn't be done just for our protagonist to look edgy - the protagonist should not enjoy being forced to be immoral for the greater good one bit - but I do think to have the protagonist challenged between choosing to do something despicable for the greater good would be an interesting theme to see.
Finally, the option to have a more stoic personality or at least a more quiet/introspective one rather than having this foolhardy screaming bastard trying to be funny on my screen, which was pretty much Javier. Now, players all have different tastes, I bet some people like to play someone with this warm personality, I don't and personally think they should give us a choice. Good examples of stoic/quiet/introspective protagonists are Clem in S2 (which I know many people didn't like because they felt she was too "robot-like" - I personally have no idea what this is about since I felt Clem in S2 had pretty good emotional delivery, it felt genuine and well placed) and Michonne in, well, Michonne.
Ideally, a more alpha/leading S2 Clem, tortured by the decisions the world has made her do would be my pick for a perfect protagonist.
To @IronWoodLover, though @Auruo, @Louche, @MarijaaNo7, @BetterToSleep, @prink34320, and maybe other Lily fans may also have some input on t… morehis as well,
I recall you mentioning that one of your issues with Javier was that he is yet another emotional protagonist rather than a logical one. How does this apply to the previous characters and what would a good logical protagonist be like to you?
Ah, okay, I suppose I can kinda get behind that as long as it's within reason. Part of the reason I sided with Conrad.
I for one would just prefer that Telltale stopped with these emotional train wrecks who just charge into problems without a second thought or proper planning. For example, in Above The Law instead of just mindlessly attacking Max, Lonnie, and Badger, why not just keep hidden, wait for them to go and then figure out a plan to take Joan out - it would be literally inverting the roles and giving us the advantage over her. But what do our protagonists do instead? They charge in, attempt to kill the raiders, fail miserably at it since they chose to warn them of their presence first, and end up giving Joan the upper hand - which ultimately gets us jailed by her. It's just we don't have an option to be cunning, it's frustrating.
You know what, that's a great point. As much as I liked that episode, one little oddity I was wondering about for a while was "what was the point of having Max openly state "Joan is on the warpath" if they were gonna grill him for info anyway?"
Obviously, I do not want a protagonist forced onto being immoral to achieve a certain goal every single time or for this theme to be forced. It should be optional, a choice maybe. There has to be a good reason to ever be immoral, and it shouldn't be done just for our protagonist to look edgy - the protagonist should not enjoy being forced to be immoral for the greater good one bit - but I do think to have the protagonist challenged between choosing to do something despicable for the greater good would be an interesting theme to see.
I do not exactly want a 100% logical robot protagonist as Kennyshouldadiedins1 said.
I for one would just prefer that Telltale stopped wi… moreth these emotional train wrecks who just charge into problems without a second thought or proper planning. For example, in Above The Law instead of just mindlessly attacking Max, Lonnie, and Badger, why not just keep hidden, wait for them to go and then figure out a plan to take Joan out - it would be literally inverting the roles and giving us the advantage over her. But what do our protagonists do instead? They charge in, attempt to kill the raiders, fail miserably at it since they chose to warn them of their presence first, and end up giving Joan the upper hand - which ultimately gets us jailed by her. It's just we don't have an option to be cunning, it's frustrating.
Furthermore, I would also like if options to prioritize ends over means appeared more often - options to be ruthless. An example of a… [view original content]
Comments
Ironically, those two are exactly what made me think about that, with Conrad somehow outdoing Tripp despite the obvious intent.
I will bite.
First you have to look at the Kenny character.
Kenny is a man who from talks with him during the 2 seasons was a man who absentmindedly loved his family, but preferred his time on his boat fishing and having his freedom. This is not to say he was not a good man, I think as a character he was. But he let work be an excuse to keep family life at a distance.
When shit went down, and one of those things tried to grab Duck, he was suddenly reminded what family was. The idea of his boy being killed awoke a strong paternal feeling in him.
FAMILY>group. This is Kenny...I have thought about this...if they had made it to a boat and gotten out to sea...say a storm hits and the ship is damaged...it can only holdsafely 4-5...I think he would actually force everyone off the ship besides himself and Kat and Duck. because FAMILY trumps all else. His family trumped Lilly's family in that meat locker...and if Lee did not back his play...there are times he would let Lee die...because Lee put FAMILY at risk.
This goes into season 2...Sarita is Kenny's FAMILY....Kenny shot people...did not care as much that hostages could be killed as long as there was a chance to save his family. He takes AJ as a replacement for family...also Clem. Once again group needs and desires do not matter if they differ to his idea on how to keep his family safe. (Understandable if a bit prickish)
Kenny is a man you can relate to because he is trying to keep his family alive....he is a man you can detest because he is wiling to hurt other people to achieve that goal. He also has a knack for thinking he is the smartest person in the group and not listening to good advice.
As my name suggests...I do not think he should have returned in S2....he had a perfect character arc in s1. S1 he was an amazing character...oh sure he was a dick to Lilly...and I gleefully beat his ass as Lee...and loved Molly getting him...but he was a great character none the less...I teared up when he lost his family and was sad when he died giving Ben a better death than he deserved.
So can they make another Kenny? Sure...but not this season...you need 5 episodes and long ones at that to build up a character like him...or like Lee...or even Clementine. Short episodes hurt your ability to create multi-layered characters. If anything I hope Telltale learns from this season that developing characters is more than showing us a 5-10 minute backstory.
Nah they won't make another like him. Like i said, Telltale are terrible now compared to then. Characters don't get enough or any character development. What do we truly know about Alvin and Rebecca? Apart from Alvin murdering a guy called George in cold blood, what do we really know about him? What did he do before the ZA? How did him and Rebecca meet? We got small background info on Nick and Luke's relationship, that they had known each other for 20 years was it? And that Luke went to college. Obviously Jane's background was all focused on her and her sister but what else do we know? Not much else apart from the story she told of a group she was with before.
The development is there to show but could have had so much more emphasis on it all.
Bit late to the party, but my computer was fucked for awhile, and when I'm called out, I usually just prefer to respond than not at all.
So, anyway, I'd have to agree with what Dan and the others have said. I don't see Telltale, in their current position, writing a character as layered or as engaging as Kenny again. That's not because they're incapable of doing so. I'm sure there's plenty of very talented writers in Telltale, but It's because, since the last season of the Walking Dead, Telltale's end game has changed. They've proven that they're more interested in popping out several releases in one year, to make more money, rather than to take time and to create genuine decent material. The episodes are considerably shorter, making less time for development and their characters in general have been striped of much of what makes a character work.
That's very much evident in the characters of season 3. I've yet to play episode 3, but just from my opinion on the cast of the season thus far, they're all lacking in complexities, actual motivations and personal attachments of their own, and distinctive flaws that can create real conflict. Kenny worked so well in season 1 because we always had the ability to agree or to disagree with him, to butt heads or to form a companionship. We had the ability to work with him towards his goal or to go against it. It made him feel more real. He had his own family, people he cared about that we mightn't have the same feelings for, making him far more fleshed out then just being a background character who's only there to serve our protagonist's mission. The characters of this season are falling into that latter category. Outside of Conrad, who lacks in having developed a personality for us to care about, most of the main cast are just there to support Javier and to be allies. It makes them seem a lot more bare, more basic and less intriguing, overall.
But, that's not to say the writers couldn't write another Kenny. Telltale, when in the right mindset, can and could create excellent characters. All it takes is just a little extra dose of effort. Unfortunately, though, it appears that they're lacking in such.
Who is your favorite villain? What is it about them that makes them stand out to you? What do you like to see in villains in general? And what kind of villain would you like to see in the future?
What is the difference between a One-note character, a consistent character, and a driven/directed/whatever character?
Way to bump ur own discussions....
DabigRG got that forum-swag.
Hey, if you got something to talk about and a good place to talk about it, might as well use what you got. Granted, no one's really discussing anyone of the questions proposed, but I'm stingy with threads anyway.
On that note, the episode rewrite thread is undoubtedly my most popular.
Isn't a one-note character technically defined?
To @IronWoodLover, though @Auruo, @Louche, @MarijaaNo7, @BetterToSleep, @prink34320, and maybe other Lily fans may also have some input on this as well,
I recall you mentioning that one of your issues with Javier was that he is yet another emotional protagonist rather than a logical one. How does this apply to the previous characters and what would a good logical protagonist be like to you?
Hey, I know some of ya'll tired of seeing this thread get spammed to the top every once in a while, but it's tailor made of inquiring about characterization and it's effect on the audience. So here's something I wrote up on Clementine:
What makes Clementine "Clementine", and why do YOU like her?
There is no such thing. A protagonist in an apocalypse story is not a logical robot...if all they did was do the logical thing all the time...there would be no conflict. Even if they started out logical..take Roland from King's Dark Tower series...he broke from doing the purely logical safe things because he was interacting with other humans...and humans are random...they get into trouble...perhaps they are inexperienced.
Sure there are always going to be times when a protagonist needs to keep cool and logical...but then there is a lack of conflict or they just become some boring asshole who watches the world burn down around them.
Okay, so this is a writing based question I've been wanting to talk about in a bigger, more focused topic, but I suppose I can post it now:
Where do you draw the line between obvious writing choices and logical conclusions where characters are concerned?
Do you think the Walking Dead's writers struggle with this distinction often or at least recently?
What are some examples of this?
Do you think the writers fully know a general idea what they want a character to be when they create/write them or do you think are afraid to define them to much in case plans change?
Azula is an interesting character. Especially how she climbs back towards sanity over time.
She has been interesting as sane and insane.
To be honest, she is probably the best character in the series.
Agreed, though Toph and Iroh are pretty awesome too.
No...but I do get the "bitter young man who reaches for tropes to try and explain his fear of women trope"
Hey, foq u, okay? It ain't my fault the executives decided to push Jane so hard at the expense of much nicer characters who'd been there longer and had more to do with the story, as well as make her embody so many stereotypes and unfortunate implications. I'm simply pointing out that the "All Bitter Women are Rape Victims" cliche is kinda cheap, overdone, and quite frankly offensive. Sometimes a bitch is just a woman in a bad mood.
Carver and Rebecca also partially bother me in that regard, bordering on Lifetime Movie of the Week shit with Walker Texas Ranger thrown in.
Lmao hows life in that glass house of yours?
Kenny actually had time to have redeemable qualities for his flaws, had time to actually explain his actions and apologize to Clem about the wrong actions he did. None of the characters that people keep comparing to Kenny like David or Tripp had that or as complex as a character as he was. If telltale continues with these types of personalities there won't be another character like Kenny worth forgiving in-game.
I read that in Lee's voice.
Interesting point. And very valid one, considering its one of the reasons David can get fucked.
Oh man, this reply right here is the first time I ever saw this post, I'm so sorry I never saw it when you first posted it. I shall answer you now!
One of the reasons why I praise Kenny so much is because how invested Telltale got me into him. He's around for 2 seasons straight. He's by our side, even if he's determinately mad at Lee, he always stays loyal, never betrays the group, and despite the short-term consequences, all of his actions are done for the cheesy but accurate "greater good." It was Season 2 that got me so heavily attached to Kenny. I'm not blind in the fact that he was different. But, it's the apocalypse, and that man has lost a lot more than most people ever have. It wouldn't be normal for him NOT to be changing. Kenny always did his best to protect Clementine, a little girl we've basically watched grow up in a cruel world. Her parents are gone, so Kenny & Lee both have done their best to give her a father figure and protect her no matter what. I love Season 2 for the fact that in my playthroughs, my Clem sees this and doesn't give up on Kenny, no matter what.
To address your point, what's special about Kenny is, like a lot of things, hard to explain. He's not perfect, but that fact makes me love him even more. The fact that I love him as much as I do makes it nearly impossible in my mind for Telltale to make a character with the same energy and feeling about them. Sure, there have been other characters I've cared about. But, because of how long Kenny has been around, the people he has lost, and the things he's done, it's made me so attached to him that I don't believe I will ever be as attached to any other video game character.
Again, apologies for not seeing this when it was originally posted.
That is a great point. Hence why I asked.
Still, how could such a perspective be done?
Sarah Conner in Terminator 2.
I need to sit down and watch that movie all the way through again. Been ages.
But rough memory and TVTropes will suffice.
Then I done my job.
Wait, you were talking about Jane the entire time?
This is bordering on black comedy right here.
In a choice based game, that's difficult to explain, especially keeping in mind the different perceptions of logic and how it's realistic for situations to force emotional reactions out of protagonists, even when they can decide on how to react.
Although I don't recall ever complaining about Javier being an overly emotional protagonist, emotion is pretty much a necessity, no matter how logical a person is, they will still have emotions, otherwise they are dull. Personally I don't have much of a gripe with Javier since most of his actions are dependent on the player, I think one of the good things about ANF was how they handled Javier but in my opinion there's always a degree of dullness when playing a protagonist who's reactions are dictated by the player.
In terms of a generally good character who's logical, I suppose it could be one who keeps their emotions in check and thinks about the possible consequences of their actions, someone who doesn't automatically trust strangers and someone who knows how to effectively survive in an environment they've been in for several years.
Why do I like her? Well, playing the first Season of The Walking Dead Game as the protagonist Lee, I was drawn into the world, story and characters and felt Lee's responsibility over caring for Clementine, at first it was more so paternal instincts that kicked in that helped me care about her character but over the course of the game I started to like Clementine as her own character, without her attachment to Lee. In my opinion, she's the main reason that made the season emotional and it was her reactions and actions that seemed to define the course of the story, so she was also an important character. The biggest draw towards Clementine for me was that it felt like it was her story, although we played as Lee, we guided her through a zombified world, we watched her grow, become braver, more useful but most importantly, we were still reminded that she was just a child, still searching for her mommy and daddy, she's experienced traumatic events and sees the very people near and dear to her die without being able to do anything and the best part of her character is that she learns from her experiences.
Going into Season two, we see how she's learned. She no longer relies on the trust of others to ensure her own survival, she acts on her own, she's willing to risk getting killed if it meant she could live another day, in hopes to reconnect with those she had lost but best of all, she continues going through hell without purpose and with only little motivation, she's become a more saddened character who rarely smiles but she still pushes forward, she has the will to live in hopes to find happiness that I admire so much about her character. Her character felt so mature and it made sense considering everything she'd been through and it especially showed when she interacted with almost everyone else. She had little to no fear facing a menace like Carver, she manages to become more of the caretaker of the group and when people underestimate her, she uses that to her advantage. In all honesty, I feel like Clementine was more of a logical protagonist rather than an emotional one but it felt like she had penned up emotions inside of her that she wasn't sure how to express, which is why in moments like when Kenny blamed her for Sarita's death/state, we could see she felt terrible, she was the saddest she'd ever been at this point in the season and I feel like the expressed emotions weren't solely over Kenny's anger or Clementine blaming herself for Sarita's death but more so opening a wound from when Clementine unintentionally caused Lee to die and she's stated in this season that she killed Lee, which makes the whole scene all the more emotional in my opinion.
Sorry for getting a little carried away at the end lol but I felt the need to include her emotional state.
I don't remember saying that.
I would actually prefer him to be MORE emotional, if my main character isn't invested in what's going on, why should I be? Javier's actor does a good job, but he needed direction to bring it out more, or maybe it's the fault of the game's choice system where you'll have a character be really emotional for one line of dialogue then revert back to a "Default" state.
This was my main gripe with Lee, he was always way too calm and collected about what was going on. Dude was a fucking teacher, not a marine, what's with the hard-ass attitude?
That's a really good question.
I think that they generally have ideas what they want to do with a character and how certain scenarios would play out with them but as plans change they don't have much time to reinvent them, instead resorting to brand new characters (like Ralph>Mike, Luke vs Kenny>Jane vs Kenny). Telltale have never been quite sure what direction they want to take their stories since after Season 1 and it shows because you seem to think one thing about a character only for it to be changed in the next episode or forgotten about completely.
I think Luke is one of the perfect examples of this, his personality makes total sense if you factor in how he was supposed to be 'Clementine's Clementine', since he's basically a take on what the average person would think about the zombie apocalypse and he would be a source of conflict for your actions throughout the story. As is, he feels like a remnant of that storyline and doesn't have many, if any, flaws to speak of because he wasn't supposed to have flaws in the first place. Carlos is another good example who feels like he was supposed to have a Kennyesque attitude of doing anything to protect Sarah from what he viewed as harmful to point of it being unreasonable but come episode 3 that aspect seems to have disappeared completely and he just sort of slots into the background.
Good post.
Yeah and I believe ANF is a case of them not really being able to hold onto that, since characters like Tripp in particular don't really seem to have that much.
I've been meaning to respond to this for a while. For me the character has to have understandable motivations and actions. It isn't as important whether they are good or bad. I can appreciate a bad guy or girl that is written well. I'm not a fan of "I want to rule the world cuz I'm EVIL muahaha" villains. Carver and Joan are good examples of what NOT to do. They had workable motivations but Telltale half a**ed developing them to the point they come off as cartoon villains. The Stranger was a great villian because his motivation wasn't slap dashed together and you could sympathise with him even though he was an antagoinst. Conversely good people, gone wrong characters are something I enjoy. This is why Kenny and Lilly are great characters and some others had the potential to be. Last but not least is characters who I can relate to on a personal level even if I don't like them exactly. Sarah, Bonnie, and Kate are examples. Like if you've been in similar situations or have traits in common then you would recognise the nuance and realism in these characters and their actions and reactions and understand that Telltale pulled off something difficult with grace. As for characters I can't get invested in, besides the outright evil underdeveloped ones I mentioned, characters who don't have much screentime (not really their fault), or are too vanilla or are like the token badass....probably why I didn't like Molly, Jane, or this season's Clem.
I do not exactly want a 100% logical robot protagonist as Kennyshouldadiedins1 said.
I for one would just prefer that Telltale stopped with these emotional train wrecks who just charge into problems without a second thought or proper planning. For example, in Above The Law instead of just mindlessly attacking Max, Lonnie, and Badger, why not just keep hidden, wait for them to go and then figure out a plan to take Joan out - it would be literally inverting the roles and giving us the advantage over her. But what do our protagonists do instead? They charge in, attempt to kill the raiders, fail miserably at it since they chose to warn them of their presence first, and end up giving Joan the upper hand - which ultimately gets us jailed by her. It's just we don't have an option to be cunning, it's frustrating.
Furthermore, I would also like if options to prioritize ends over means appeared more often - options to be ruthless. An example of a good, ruthless, ends over means protagonist is a Renegade Commander Shepard from the Mass Effect Trilogy. Obviously, I do not want a protagonist forced onto being immoral to achieve a certain goal every single time or for this theme to be forced. It should be optional, a choice maybe. There has to be a good reason to ever be immoral, and it shouldn't be done just for our protagonist to look edgy - the protagonist should not enjoy being forced to be immoral for the greater good one bit - but I do think to have the protagonist challenged between choosing to do something despicable for the greater good would be an interesting theme to see.
Finally, the option to have a more stoic personality or at least a more quiet/introspective one rather than having this foolhardy screaming bastard trying to be funny on my screen, which was pretty much Javier. Now, players all have different tastes, I bet some people like to play someone with this warm personality, I don't and personally think they should give us a choice. Good examples of stoic/quiet/introspective protagonists are Clem in S2 (which I know many people didn't like because they felt she was too "robot-like" - I personally have no idea what this is about since I felt Clem in S2 had pretty good emotional delivery, it felt genuine and well placed) and Michonne in, well, Michonne.
Ideally, a more alpha/leading S2 Clem, tortured by the decisions the world has made her do would be my pick for a perfect protagonist.
Ah, okay, I suppose I can kinda get behind that as long as it's within reason. Part of the reason I sided with Conrad.
You know what, that's a great point.
As much as I liked that episode, one little oddity I was wondering about for a while was "what was the point of having Max openly state "Joan is on the warpath" if they were gonna grill him for info anyway?"
This.