Am I the only one that perfectly understands why everyone was mad at clem and AJ ?
In the entire episode I accepted everyone's wrath and took every opportunity to show remorse, I wasn't mad at all at the entire group, in fact I thought that Violet was wrong and thought it was weird that she just defended us for, well no reason, and just saying Marlon was a dick. I also thought that Louis straight up admitting Marlon was bad didn't make much sense to me either. I mean we saw what happened when you refuse to make a deal right ? Marlon saved some people, perhaps not in the best way, perhaps in cowardice, but he was good towards the kids.
I thought it was sad that Mitch died too, he seemed nice.
Seriously I think I trusted more the people who were mad at me, rather than those who weren't (shows how loyal they are right ?)
Also I'm glad I did what I did cause AJ does seem to show remorse, also I was mad when he thought apologising just mean he HAD to be forgiven and treated fairly and It sucked I couldn't tell him, cause AJ didn't just apologise because he felt bad, he apologised cause he wanted to stay and used that apology as a tool. I wish I could have told him
"You apologised that's good, it doesn't mean they have to forgive us, if they don't want us here then we'll leave, it's their home, they lived longer here than we ever did."
Comments
I would want Clem kicked out too, from their perspective. She hasa knife and would choose AJ over everyone there.
A kid who's led the group for years vs two kids who showed up two days ago and killed said leader, some of the sides some kids ended up taking were really odd.
Tenn I could understand being angry, but he was able (no pun intended) to be mature enough to not disrespect Marlon during the funeral. (Aside from not drawing a picture for him I suppose) While he did vote for the duo to stay, that just goes to further show the kids good nature, kudos all around for him, even if he is a bit naive as a result.
Meanwhile Louis calls AJ a murderer, rightfully so, and presumably votes to kick them out, then feels immediate remorse for it afterwards and tries sucking up to the two afterwards, the timeskip was jarring but I'll let it explain why he was back to his old self at that point. Regardless, he's trying to get back into good favor of the main duo, one having killed his best friend he's known throughout his whole life, all because of a very tough call Marlon had to make all of that time ago. Louis is naive as well, but it's more annoying considering he should know better, act his age one could say.
I don't even know what the deal is with Violet defending the duo so vehemently, it looks like it's purely emotionally based, both her emotions against Marlon for taking away her girlfriend and her emotions towards Clementine and wanting to have a new girlfriend? Like I said, got no clue.
My boi Mitch was the only one truly acting how I'd expect one to in the wake of the situation they were thrust into, courtesy of AJ. Marlon had surrendered, had obvious regret for what he did, and AJ shot him regardless, I'd be pretty pissed too. Honestly, the kid should be glad the group didn't have guns themselves because I'm fairly certain he would've gotten a bullet to the head himself after that stunt. Both Marlon and AJ were killers but like said before, two wrongs don't make a right. They ended up with two less people to help defend against the raiders rather than one. So yeah, don't know why more people weren't backing Mitch up vocally rather than just simply voting to kick the group out. Overall, I just find the behaviour of the lot irresponsible sans Mitch for the, in my mind, the right reasons and Violet for the wrong ones.
Oddly enough, nobody else had a single good thing to say for either Brody or Marlon, again aside from the beach picture on Brody' s part. One horrifying revelation about Marlon should not scour the tons of good he must have done. The guy was being eaten alive on the inside by both responsibility and guilt and from what little we saw of him he still had time to be a caring leader in his own right, helping Willy find his weapon, personally showing Clementine around and being (mostly) level with her almost immediately, and always having time to do a card game with his friends.
Makes me curious to see who voted what in that vote, Violet and Tenn obviously voted for the duo to stay, but as far as I'm aware we got no confirmation on who the last voter on their side was.
(All in all though I'm just disappointed Aasim was hard-core thrown to the background in this espiode but that's another matter entirely.)
Marlon was a horrible person. He wasn't a threat when aj shot him and aj shouldn't have shot him because of that. However marlon saw everyone as expendable. He gave away people in the group and said he'd do it again. Aj misunderstood the situation but he was only a threat because of what marlon did. Aj does feel bad and show remorse though. Vi was right about everything she said about marlon. Clem and aj helped get food and clem helped out clearing the walkers. Clem and aj both contributed to the group. Clem didn't shoot marlon and of course clem is going to defend aj. Aj didn't understand what he did at the time and he's just a child. Marlon's at fault for provoking aj. Marlon was the toxic moron and he didn't deserve any empathy. Aj did the group a favor by killing marlon. Marlon didn't care about what he did. He played the victim role. Empathy should be given to people who deserve it. Not people who feel sorry for themselves for what they did and play the victim. It's moronic to forgive someone like marlon. It's moronic to ignore what he did, to think he was good for the group, and to think marlon being killed was a bad thing. Brody being killed was a bad thing. Brody is the one who deserves empathy. Tenn and his sisters are the ones who deserve empathy and vi deserves empathy. They're the victims. Not marlon.
Vi's reaction and response was that of someone who got over the initial shock of marlon being killed then came to their senses and realized that marlon was a horrible person and not only was he a terrible leader he was unfit to lead. Everyone else's reactions were of people who were initially shocked at seeing marlon be killed, got over it but ignored marlon's horrible actions and let their emotions blind them from seeing what marlon really was. Louis eventually came to his senses and realized what vi realized before anyone else in the group did.
Honestly the fact that they just seem to forget (or actively ignore) that Marlon gave up two of their friends to raiders is a bit ridiculous. Regardless of AJ’s actions, why are they treating him like a saint? It would have made more sense for them to acknowledge that AJ is threatening their safety while simultaneously acknowledging the messed up nature of what Marlon did instead of exempting him from all responsibility.
From a writing standpoint, Louis’ reaction is the only one that made sense to me.
The thing is, regardless of what Marlon had done, the fact that AJ just straight up murdered him is a much larger issue they needed to be concerned with. AJ is dangerous. I forget which one of the kids said it, maybe Mitch, but one of them addressed that specifically by saying something to the effect of "and what happens next time one of us does something he doesn't like? He gonna kill us, too?" They didn't have time to deal with what Marlon did because AJ showed himself to be a threat and a much bigger issue to be dealt with.
No, OP, I understood completely. You aren't alone.
Jesus christ, you really aren't gonna let this down, look we all saw what happens when you refuse to surrender people, Mitch died, did anybody died with Marlon ? No, he killed one person accidently and that's why he should have been punished someway that's all I have to say, kid had to make tough decisions and obviously we didn't know him before but he was apparently respected by his people, and also showed compassion for them.
Your relentless hate of Marlon is tiring, like try to put yourself in people's shoes from time to time, the reaction of everyone was bs to me look at the post just before yours, this guy explains it perfectly, but we already had this argument before, you're as stubborn as a mule so I know you are never gonna see things from another point of view.
They didn't treat him like a saint, And that funeral was so weird, like crazyn8ball said I don't understand how no one had anything to say about Marlon while clearly he was respected and liked by the group.
Maybe that's why I don't really like Violet, cause her reaction seemed super unrealistic to me, like what you instantly side with us and (optionally) cheat on your girlfriend ? Who you know is still alive.
Ok
AJ’s trigger-happiness is a more immediate concern to them, yes, but the fact remains that Marlon did something extremely fucked up and it’s bizarre that this revelation, which elicited such an emotional reaction from the kids at one point, is just now promptly forgotten, or swept under the rug, by everyone sans Violet. I guess they just don’t care about the twins anymore? idk.
No, Marlon deserves as much empathy because of the fact that it's the raiders fault.
You saw what happened with Clem, how they threathened AJ, obviously it's what happened with Marlon, he got blackmailed, forced into surrendering his people then got scared and was afraid to tell anybody.
You are so blinded by your hate towards Marlon you can't even understand how this type of situation is scary as hell in real life and we wouldn't all act the way we would have wanted to. Think about all the things you wish you could have done in your life, and regret not doing them.
Now add that the stress of the apocalypse and think about the things you are gonna regret doing, like I said before, you are just trying to distance Marlon from yourself by thinking you would never be able to do something like that but the fact is, Marlon saved people's lives.
Again you saw Abel put a knife under aj's neck and lilly with a rifle on Clem's head, you know what would have happened in real life ? You would have surrendered, what happened in the game, Clementine dodging bullets and shit, was completely unrealistic.
I'm just giving my input. Mitch died because he attacked lily. Marlon could've sacrificed himself but he didn't. Marlon could've tried to rescue tenn's sisters but he coward out of doing it. Marlon killed brody and gave away tenn's sisters. Two wrongs don't make a right but marlon did many wrongs to aj's one and marlon brought that on himself. Marlon also lied about what happened to tenn's sisters, tried to blame brody's death on clem, locked clem in the basement with a zombie brody and was going to give clem and aj to lily. Compared to what aj did which was kill marlon.
Again, what fucked up thing did he do ? Except killing Brody, which was an accident. He should have been punished but jesus Marlon isn't some kind of psychopath.
Not everyone is a hero, a very low percentage of people would actually "sacrifice themselves".
Marlon did what he could to save his life and those of his people.
Marlon got what he deserved, a bullet to the brain. Aj was Justified.
Ok, did you even read what I said, seems pointless to argue against you, you seem really stubborn.
I would have surrendered myself. The worst case scenario if that didn't work I would go down fighting or if I was marlon I wouldn't have chickened out of rescuing tenn's sisters.
To save his life. That's it right there. He should've thought about only saving their life. That's what a good leader does and what a good person would do.
No that's the thing you THINK you would have done this, but when your life is in danger, your back is against the wall, you have NO IDEA how you would react, also you saw what happened when you ask to surrender yourself, Lilly doesn't accept (that's what I did) saying you would go down fighting is just stupid, everyone would be scared shitless in these situations. People are capable to do terrible things just to survive, do you know about cannibal island ? Cause all of these people were normal until they went on that island, then they got out as monsters, all these people probably thought the same things you did, how they would react in dangerous situations, well look what happened, it's real, a real life event and i've got countless exemples.
You like to think you would be "heroic" and sacrifice yourself but chances are, you won't, cause it's in your nature to survive.
Now that I think about it, you’re right. They didn’t really treat him like a saint. Maybe Mitch and Willy did, but they’re not exactly renowned for their critical thinking skills.
The funeral scene was not weird at all. Marlon died as someone who lied to his people and killed one of his own. What, you want them to deliver heartfelt eulogies for someone like him? Guy’s lucky he got a burial place. It’s just not fitting at all. The scene was appropriately somber. idk about you.
As for Violet, how is her siding with us unrealistic? Marlon gave up his gf and close friend to raiders lol. There’s no love lost between them. And why would she remain in love with someone she thought dead for so long? She’s allowed to move on even after finding out she’s alive.
Ok I said to save "HIS" life on purpose, but your way of thinking seems really childish, you seem really young if you think people are able to "only think about others".
Also your way of seeing good people is also very weird and, well childish.
I always say that but, educate yourself on psychology and human nature, heck just nature in general and you will see why you are wrong.
Exchange two of his friends for safety?
Crack someone’s skull open with a flashlight when they finally decided to come clean about the whole thing?
Lock a witness to the murder inside a basement with a walker because his lies finally caught up with him?
Lie through this teeth again in front of the group, attempting to frame Clem for a murder he committed?
I dunno, bruh. Take your pick.
He killed brody and tried to blame it on clem. He gave tenn's sisters away and lied about what happened. That's what f'd up thing marlon did. And the f'd up thing marlon was going to do was give up clem and aj. What f'd thing marlon had no problem doing is sacrificing more people. What would you call someone who's screaming at the top of their lungs while waving a gun around? what would you call someone who smirks after shooting someone dead. Clem can get killed by marlon depending on what choices the player makes and marlon gives zero f's about it. One of the options for the player is clem telling aj to run marlon then shoots clem and kills her. Does all of this not say psychopath?
The thing is your are talking from YOUR point of view, but obviously Marlon took care of these people for many years long, and honestly, he seemed real friendly, like when you meet him and stuff he is really nice towards Clem and AJ.
What I mean is that these people lived with Marlon and respected him, so them just not having nice things to say about him, and not being able to be compassionate about what he did was weird.
Trading people off was not a bad thing to do, in fact when you look at the first meeting with Lilly you saw how fucked up the situation was, so Marlon was probably in that same spot but even worse considering Lilly didn't know Marlon.
The only bad thing he did was accidentaly killing Brody and lying about it, and obviously he should have been punished, but the guy was a kid, seriously he was scared shitless. And Louis just saying that his friend was bad seems really weird too cause, well his actions are explainable.
What I mean is that Violet lived with these people for a long time and suddendly Clem arrives and she sides with her and AJ super fast, not even feeling remorse for her dead friend. And yes Violet has a right to move on but I think it's weird she wouldn't have conflicted feelings after being announced her girlfriend is still alive, like she kisses Clementine like she doesn't even give a f.
I’m tapping out of this whole thing, btw. Marlon apologism is the new Kenny fanaticism and twice as annoying so this is gonna go nowhere. Toodles!
No I wouldn't like to think that. I know I would sacrifice myself to save someone else whether I'm afraid or not. It's stupid if you think that everyone's a pathetic coward like marlon. And it's insulting if you think that.
No I didn't in fact. Any threads that show sympathy to Marlon I tend to skip over the OP, because it's basically all the same stuff. "He didn't deserve death" or "What Aj did was wrong" and so on and so forth. The fact is, this is an apocalyptic situation. Clem needs people who she can trust by her side. Marlon killed Brody, tried to kill clem, gave the sisters up, didn't try to get them back, didn't tell the group about it, and was going to give Clem and Aj away also. In my book those actions deserve death. Even in today's world killing someone can be punishable by death. Marlon is a little asshole who got what he deserved, and Aj shouldn't have to apologize for putting down a monster like him. He was a coward, and I'm glad when Lilly tried to have clem do the same thing as Marlon. Clem repilies with "I'm not Marlon." That kid was not a leader. Violet shows she has way more grit then him, he should have never been the leader.
What pisses me off is the unability for people to put themselves in other people's shoes, and knowing jack shit about psychology or human nature.
Marlon was threatened, forced to surrender his friends, got scared so he didn't tell anybody, killed Brody by accident, got scared again and lied to protect himself.
What does that make him ? A coward, that's all, not a psychopath, not a monster or anything, he was the only one possible to step up and had to be a leader against his will, he was forced to take care of everyone and assume the leadership role so others wouldn't have to. It's not Marlon apologism it's just being smart and objectif, obviously he deserved some kind of justice, but not being murdered. Seriously learn about law and why criminals get to have a lawyer, cause anyone get to have a lawyer, even "good guys" which doesn't exist.
People love to qualify others as monsters just to reassure themselves they would never do anything terrible.
Well, you are either very young or really naive if you think that, just think about your short life and the stuff you did, things you wish you would have done, sometimes maybe you wished you would have been braver, done something instead of nothing.
It's so easy to say you would act a certain way but reality always kicks in.
Well ok, Seems pointless to talk to you if you are just gonna monologue and not read answers or anything.
How so? and my way of seeing good people? and I don't think that people are only able to think about others. And while it's in your nature to survive it's also in other peoples nature to put others before themselves.
Yes reality does always kick in and yes it is so easy to say you're going to do something or react a certain way doesn't mean it can't happen and that it doesn't happen though someone saying something and then making good on it. And none of this back and forth changes what marlon did nor does it give him a pass for his actions. Stop with the very young thing. No one is exempt from doing something terrible. Everyone is capable of doing something terrible doesn't mean they're free from being ridiculed or can't be despised or judged no matter who they are if they do something terrible. Aj was right when he said he killed a monster and I agree with aj's decision to do that. What I have a problem with is that aj chose to kill a monster that was unarmed and had given up. Marlon was way more in the wrong and imo committed unforgivable acts. I don't like the timing of the kill because it was wrong but I agree with the kill completely.
You never put others before yourself, empathy, while it's beautiful, is an evolutionary advantage, which means that people who had it survived more than those who didn't so now, almost everyone has empathy. Empathy is the ability to feel someone's pain, to think "this could happen to me" but it is in itself selfish, cause empathy produces pleasure to the person who acts in goodwill, and guilt if he doesn't. That's why psychopaths never help anyone cause they can't feel empathy. Now selfish doesn't mean bad, every living cell in this planet and probably the universe is selfish, your only goal is to survive and procreate, and it has been proven countless times that unfortunately, in a life or death situation, self preservation comes before empathy.
Good people would be people who were lucky enough to be born with a lot of empathy, bad people would be people who weren't lucky enough to be born with a lot of empathy.
Now to function as a society of course you have to punish people who acts wrong, cause it's for the greater good as a species, but in law we call attenuating circumstances the ability to understand people's actions, this is why even criminals get lawyers.
Marlon's actions were not those of a monster, but those of someone scared, like everyone would be, now matter how tough you are. The only thing he did wrong was killing Brody in accident, and then lying so he could get himself of the hook. Again he is guilty, but doesn't mean he should get murdered.
And I already explained why the trading was none of his fault, the raiders are to blame not Marlon.
I understood why they wanted Clementine and AJ removed from The Boarding School, but when it came to the vote I asked for them to not do it as Clementine and AJ were genuinely sorry for what happened to Marlon. I wasn't angry at Mitch or anyone for how they reacted, they just lost their friend who cared for and protected them for years and while Marlon's actions and decision to give up the twins didn't sink in all that quick it eventually did and that lead to the Boarding School group accepting Clementine and AJ and forgiving them for what happened to Marlon
Yeah I wanted to stay too but picked all the remorse actions because all of the choices that asked for Clem and AJ to stay seemed agressive to me, I understand they can't cater to everyone's needs but you know, some of thoses choices are really extreme.
Although AJ feels remorse now I kinda feel like he was feeling apologetic cause he wanted to stay, he used his "remorse" as a tool and was pissed that it didn't work. But it's ok now I feel like he has learned, in my playthrough at least.
I personally would put others before myself and I know other people would and do too. And there are people who put others before themselves because they feel it's the right thing to do and I agree with it being the right thing to do. Marlon giving away tenn's sisters, lying about what happened to them, and not trying to rescue them was horrible, wrong, and cowardly. It doesn't matter why he did it. What and how he felt when doing it and what and how he felt after doing it. The cause of it doesn't matter either. Marlon's to blame for his own horrible actions and bad decisions. Killing brody, locking clem in the basement with zombie brody, framing the kill on clem, wanting to give away aj and clem, giving away tenn's sisters who were close friends with vi and louis and the other sister being vi's former gf, lying about it, waving a loaded gun around, feeling sorry for himself and playing the victim imo are all monstrous things. People will feel differently and others will agree. Agree to disagree on whether marlon's a monster and whether marlon should've been killed.
Same but I only really disagreed with them when Mitch brought about the idea of a vote. I begged him not to do it. But I understood why they did it.
When I play these games I heavily consider every little aspect like what a character may be thinking, the situation presented and so on. I sympathised with them and understood where they were coming from when they wanted Clementine and AJ out. But I wanted to stay and to try and redeem AJ and Clementine.
Ok I feel like you didn't read anything, I basically gave you scientific facts about why I was right, in any case, you seem young and didn't discard me saying that you were young so I'm just gonna assume you are.
It's a beautiful way to think, putting yourself before others, even though you need to be careful cause there is a fine line between being heroic, and then just trying to appeal to everyone so they like you.
Every single one of your actions are selfish in nature, it doesn't mean it's bad, It's just a fact, free will doesn't exist.
I don't know you so maybe you are one of the rare people who have so much empathy that they have to endanger their lives for others cause they couldn't live with the burden of not doing it, but even if you were, you are a minority, and even saying that is way too inaccurate, probably 1% of people in the world would have the balls to sacrifice their life for that of a stranger, probably 3% for their friends, and maybe a bit more for familly. People aren't heroes, people just are.
Grow up and learn about the world, then you will understand me.
Oh yeah I think I remember the beg action but I didn't like Violet's reaction cause it felt unrealistic to me so I just put all the blame on Clem and AJ. I wanted to be as honest as possible and then hope that they would let us stay, but I was ok if they wanted us to leave.
I also tried to do everything to redeem ourselves, even letting Mitch insult Clem and Aj cause honestly he was justified, and in my game he even joked a little bit with Clem and showed some form of understanding towards Clem, he just needed to see that you weren't really a bad person.
EDIT :
Kinda weird how I switch from saying "Clem" to "I" xD
A lot of people in this place can be great but this toxic lack of empathy has been a running theme here since S1 I've heard. I think everyone just kinda forgot that since ANF had shitty characters and there wasn't much empathy that could make their actions justifiable. You remember the community's reaction to Sarah, a girl who just lost her father, was in obvious shock and was forcibly coddled by him while he was alive? Holy shit that was bad.