I think @Nikolaj-11 summed this issue up better than I could, it basically comes down to how you interpret how choices are presented. You fall under his first interpretation ("All choices are thoughts that the player character has, therefore they all make up the basis of their character and their capacity to act."), I fall under the second ("Only the choice the player picks represent the character, the other three choices as such never crossed the characters mind.") My Clem is not determined by the choices that she doesn't make, she is determined by the ones she does, and the other options are irrelevant to who she is.
I would argue that her being able to pursue Violet over Louis IS the concrete proof that she is bisexual. Unless this is an RPG where you ge… moret to choose from the beginning that this character is explicitly straight/gay/bi/etc, the choice of the player doesn't determine that aspect of her identity. It's not like Clem's past actions determine whether she's bisexual, that's just a part of her identity that isn't determined or changeable.
It could also be concrete proof that she's a lesbian (and therefore whatever sexuality you like, if you pick Louis for example), lol. The idea is that, if you choose to go for Violet, nothing in the game so far says that Clementine was ever into men. We even get to pick what she felt for Gabriel in the first episode.
I would argue that her being able to pursue Violet over Louis IS the concrete proof that she is bisexual. Unless this is an RPG where you ge… moret to choose from the beginning that this character is explicitly straight/gay/bi/etc, the choice of the player doesn't determine that aspect of her identity. It's not like Clem's past actions determine whether she's bisexual, that's just a part of her identity that isn't determined or changeable.
I like your argument better, but I still feel like it's lacking. I feel like there have definitely been instances in the game where the player has to choose between 2 options, and then has to justify later why they chose this option over the other option; thus implying that they considered both decisions. You can apply this to choosing between Violet or Louis
The choices doesn't imply anything unless Telltale says it does, they haven't stated anything so far, as far as I am aware.
When it comes… more to multiple-choice story telling there are usually two ways to interpret the way the choices are meant to represent the character: 1) All choices are thoughts that the player character has, therefore they all make up the basis of their character and their capacity to act. 2) Only the choice the player picks represent the character, the other three choices as such never crossed the characters mind. I don't recall Telltale ever confirming that it's one or the other interpretation that's correct so in reality people can imagine Clementine as defined by either way. I lean towards the second interpretation since, at least since season 2 Telltale has been pushing that our choices determine what kind of person Clementine is.
I think @Nikolaj-11 summed this issue up better than I could, it basically comes down to how you interpret how choices are presented. You fa… morell under his first interpretation ("All choices are thoughts that the player character has, therefore they all make up the basis of their character and their capacity to act."), I fall under the second ("Only the choice the player picks represent the character, the other three choices as such never crossed the characters mind.") My Clem is not determined by the choices that she doesn't make, she is determined by the ones she does, and the other options are irrelevant to who she is.
Hm, I sense a deviation towards a longer and possibly off-topic discussion here, but do you have any specifc choices that you feel are like that?
My first thought went to Lee. He's presented with the choice to save one or the other character a couple of times for example, but most memorably is Carly vs. Doug. Your interpretation is that Lee actively chooses one while still considering the other, where my interpretation was different, is that a good example?
I like your argument better, but I still feel like it's lacking. I feel like there have definitely been instances in the game where the play… moreer has to choose between 2 options, and then has to justify later why they chose this option over the other option; thus implying that they considered both decisions. You can apply this to choosing between Violet or Louis
This is a really interesting conversation! I feel like a lot of choices use this logic because this is a game that emphasizes choice, and therefore justifying choosing one option versus the other. We're (generally) rational human beings; we consider the costs and benefits of our potential actions, and choose the option that we perceive to be the best. Just to single out a few choices from the top of my head: Carley vs Doug, Shooting vs leaving Lee, Shooting Kenny vs letting him kill Jane, chopping off Sarita's arm vs not doing that
ETA: If we were to expand upon this cost-benefit calculus to the choice between Violet and Louis, the player - and Clem by extension - simply weighs the costs/benefits of romancing/befriending Violet or Louis, not whether Clem is straight or bi or gay.
Hm, I sense a deviation towards a longer and possibly off-topic discussion here, but do you have any specifc choices that you feel are like … morethat?
My first thought went to Lee. He's presented with the choice to save one or the other character a couple of times for example, but most memorably is Carly vs. Doug. Your interpretation is that Lee actively chooses one while still considering the other, where my interpretation was different, is that a good example?
Alright, so I personally think that the only of those choices that you listed that definitely presents both choices actively within the narrative, and not just externally with the player, are the shoot vs. leave Lee, and the only reason I feel that is because the world within the Walking Dead as a whole places a lot of emphasis on mercy killing and the morality of killing a person before/after they turn (that turning in itself is a horrifying fate, even if you know you'll die just after). You can for example let Duck turn before you kill him, if you stand still with the gun for a long time.
Another good example is Javier shooting or not shooting Conrad, but that's because I see the choice coming up several times. It's a stand off after all, the whole point of a scene like that is to choose to or not to react prematurely in the first place.
As for the other examples I still feel like my interpretation works, at least with all of them I had gut reactions that I feel like I reflect onto Clementine, Javier and Lee, which means that she only ever considered the option that I picked. A part of it is gameplay and story segregation. Let me list them one after the other.
Carly and Doug: I see that choice as a reaction for Lee, he went for the bag and helped Carley not because he chose her over Doug but because that's just how he reacted. He intended to save Doug as well (I also think this specific thought can be voiced by Lee later).
Kenny and Jane: This is actually a section where you have several choices. In my playthrough Clementine never picked up the gun. My interpretation is that she never considered disrupting the fight at all.
Clementine did not chop off Sarita's arm. Risking that exposure in the middle of a herd (as she could not predict Sarita's reaction) was crazy, she never considered doing it and instead killed the walker to get it off her.
As I see it, there is a difference between the choices I as a player have, and how concious my player character are of those choices.
This is a really interesting conversation! I feel like a lot of choices use this logic because this is a game that emphasizes choice, and th… moreerefore justifying choosing one option versus the other. We're (generally) rational human beings; we consider the costs and benefits of our potential actions, and choose the option that we perceive to be the best. Just to single out a few choices from the top of my head: Carley vs Doug, Shooting vs leaving Lee, Shooting Kenny vs letting him kill Jane, chopping off Sarita's arm vs not doing that
ETA: If we were to expand upon this cost-benefit calculus to the choice between Violet and Louis, the player - and Clem by extension - simply weighs the costs/benefits of romancing/befriending Violet or Louis, not whether Clem is straight or bi or gay.
No offence but that makes no sense - kisses Gabe, Goes 100% with Louis - STILL BISEXUAL
No but really, this whole thing is a sham. I think we need to stop applying modern societal contexts to a fictional character in a post-apocalyptic world; a world in which Clementine has almost absolutely ZERO clue about sexuality and what it means in today's context. To her, girls can like girls, guys can like guys and girls can like guys and vice versa. I don't think she care's enough considering the far more important survival aspects at hand. Not us though - oooh no. We need to bang on about it to the point where we need confirmation from a developer, who probably has zero clue herself, to tell us what to think. Considering we ARE Clementine in the game, I think we are all capable of working things out for ourselves when it comes to what gender Clementine likes, given the obvious scenes in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against the way relationships were done in TFS, but it all seems a bit too frivolous when were trying to stick a label on Clementine - a label which does not need to be applied.
No offence but that makes no sense - kisses Gabe, Goes 100% with Louis - STILL BISEXUAL
No but really, this whole thing is a sham. I thin… morek we need to stop applying modern societal contexts to a fictional character in a post-apocalyptic world; a world in which Clementine has almost absolutely ZERO clue about sexuality and what it means in today's context. To her, girls can like girls, guys can like guys and girls can like guys and vice versa. I don't think she care's enough considering the far more important survival aspects at hand. Not us though - oooh no. We need to bang on about it to the point where we need confirmation from a developer, who probably has zero clue herself, to tell us what to think. Considering we ARE Clementine in the game, I think we are all capable of working things out for ourselves when it comes to what gender Clementine likes, given the obvious scenes in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against the way re… [view original content]
No offence but that makes no sense - kisses Gabe, Goes 100% with Louis - STILL BISEXUAL
No but really, this whole thing is a sham. I thin… morek we need to stop applying modern societal contexts to a fictional character in a post-apocalyptic world; a world in which Clementine has almost absolutely ZERO clue about sexuality and what it means in today's context. To her, girls can like girls, guys can like guys and girls can like guys and vice versa. I don't think she care's enough considering the far more important survival aspects at hand. Not us though - oooh no. We need to bang on about it to the point where we need confirmation from a developer, who probably has zero clue herself, to tell us what to think. Considering we ARE Clementine in the game, I think we are all capable of working things out for ourselves when it comes to what gender Clementine likes, given the obvious scenes in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against the way re… [view original content]
Based on what? A writers say so? If Mary can happily tell us Clementines sexuality then I am sure she can tell us Clementines age, her parents racial background, where the story takes place... wait a minute... that's for the player to decide? Hmmm....
Bisexuals can of never of had a relationship with the same sex and still be bi. This is coming from someone who is bi and hasn't dated a woman yet and I realised my attraction towards women way before my attraction towards men. As long as we feel it, it's there and we don't need to really prove that to anyone (I can't put that in an other way, so hopefully it doesn't come across as rude)
No offence but that makes no sense - kisses Gabe, Goes 100% with Louis - STILL BISEXUAL
No but really, this whole thing is a sham. I thin… morek we need to stop applying modern societal contexts to a fictional character in a post-apocalyptic world; a world in which Clementine has almost absolutely ZERO clue about sexuality and what it means in today's context. To her, girls can like girls, guys can like guys and girls can like guys and vice versa. I don't think she care's enough considering the far more important survival aspects at hand. Not us though - oooh no. We need to bang on about it to the point where we need confirmation from a developer, who probably has zero clue herself, to tell us what to think. Considering we ARE Clementine in the game, I think we are all capable of working things out for ourselves when it comes to what gender Clementine likes, given the obvious scenes in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against the way re… [view original content]
Bisexuals can of never of had a relationship with the same sex and still be bi. This is coming from someone who is bi and hasn't dated a wom… morean yet and I realised my attraction towards women way before my attraction towards men. As long as we feel it, it's there and we don't need to really prove that to anyone (I can't put that in an other way, so hopefully it doesn't come across as rude)
There is a greater point I am trying to make here. The first part was just a joke. I'm not saying that she can't be bi regardless of player choices, but why does she HAVE to be bi?
So we have this fictional female character in a post-apocalyptic world. She has sexual and romantic attractions that can be influenced/determined by the player right? Fair enough. However, despite the fact that it is never explored, despite the fact that we can't even have something as simple as her age confirmed, despite the fact that Clementine herself from an in-game context probably doesn't know and probably doesn't care, it seems oh so important to label Clementine for certain as bisexual.
To say so much about her character is up to the player, it seems rather dubious for this to be some kind of 'confirmed canon'. I understand that it might help people relate to her but for what it's worth, Clementine can be whoever you want her to be, so it doesn't really matter.
Bisexuals can of never of had a relationship with the same sex and still be bi. This is coming from someone who is bi and hasn't dated a wom… morean yet and I realised my attraction towards women way before my attraction towards men. As long as we feel it, it's there and we don't need to really prove that to anyone (I can't put that in an other way, so hopefully it doesn't come across as rude)
There is a greater point I am trying to make here. The first part was just a joke. I'm not saying that she can't be bi regardless of player … morechoices, but why does she HAVE to be bi?
So we have this fictional female character in a post-apocalyptic world. She has sexual and romantic attractions that can be influenced/determined by the player right? Fair enough. However, despite the fact that it is never explored, despite the fact that we can't even have something as simple as her age confirmed, despite the fact that Clementine herself from an in-game context probably doesn't know and probably doesn't care, it seems oh so important to label Clementine for certain as bisexual.
To say so much about her character is up to the player, it seems rather dubious for this to be some kind of 'confirmed canon'. I understand that it might help people relate to her but for what it's worth, Clementine can be whoever you want her to be, so it doesn't really matter.
The player never sat down and chose Clem's sexuality: they never chose if she was gonna be straight, gay, bisexual, etc. We can choose her p… moreersonality but her sexuality is not included in that, just like how we can't choose her gender or her race because that's settled. That is out of our control. But the player CAN choose who she romances. The fact that Clem can romance either Louis or Violet implies that she can be attracted to boys and girls. Choosing Louis over Violet =/= Clem is straight, Choosing Violet over Louis =/= Clem is a lesbian.
"No offence but that makes no sense - kisses Gabe, Goes 100% with Louis - STILL BISEXUAL", that argument makes no sense whatsoever. I've had boyfriends but that doesn't make me straight. This comment reminds me of my mom, whenever I date a girl she says, "Oh, so you're a lesbian now" and when I date a guy she says, "So this means you're straight?".
No offence but that makes no sense - kisses Gabe, Goes 100% with Louis - STILL BISEXUAL
No but really, this whole thing is a sham. I thin… morek we need to stop applying modern societal contexts to a fictional character in a post-apocalyptic world; a world in which Clementine has almost absolutely ZERO clue about sexuality and what it means in today's context. To her, girls can like girls, guys can like guys and girls can like guys and vice versa. I don't think she care's enough considering the far more important survival aspects at hand. Not us though - oooh no. We need to bang on about it to the point where we need confirmation from a developer, who probably has zero clue herself, to tell us what to think. Considering we ARE Clementine in the game, I think we are all capable of working things out for ourselves when it comes to what gender Clementine likes, given the obvious scenes in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against the way re… [view original content]
"No offence but that makes no sense - kisses Gabe, Goes 100% with Louis - STILL BISEXUAL", that argument makes no sense whatsoever. I've had… more boyfriends but that doesn't make me straight. This comment reminds me of my mom, whenever I date a girl she says, "Oh, so you're a lesbian now" and when I date a guy she says, "So this means you're straight?".
I think their implying that if you choose these opitions that its possible for clem to be straight?? (like if you wanted her to be straight maybe?) I don't know
"No offence but that makes no sense - kisses Gabe, Goes 100% with Louis - STILL BISEXUAL", that argument makes no sense whatsoever. I've had… more boyfriends but that doesn't make me straight. This comment reminds me of my mom, whenever I date a girl she says, "Oh, so you're a lesbian now" and when I date a guy she says, "So this means you're straight?".
Fair enough. However there was a lot of uncertainty around this. A skybound reply to a message that asked the same question said that the details were up to the player. Could just he the result of a generic response but you just don't know. This is as much as i think we will get.
This is discussing I really really hate that this is even a thing I was really hoping that this would never be a thing but no they just had to do it .....I guess it was just a matter of time before they ruin one of the best characters in gaming history and I know I’m the only one but I can’t be quite about this anymore but it just keeps getting shoved in my face and I’m sick of it like HOW OUT OF NO WHERE did she just somewhat become bi I’m sorry I can’t stand this anymore I had to say something
I’m not exactly a fan of it either as I think it robs people of a choice in someway, but I fail to see how Clem’s sexuality ruins, or enhances, her character.
This is discussing I really really hate that this is even a thing I was really hoping that this would never be a thing but no they just had … moreto do it .....I guess it was just a matter of time before they ruin one of the best characters in gaming history and I know I’m the only one but I can’t be quite about this anymore but it just keeps getting shoved in my face and I’m sick of it like HOW OUT OF NO WHERE did she just somewhat become bi I’m sorry I can’t stand this anymore I had to say something
I’m not exactly a fan of it either as I think it robs people of a choice in someway, but I fail to see how Clem’s sexuality ruins, or enhances, her character.
Comments
I think @Nikolaj-11 summed this issue up better than I could, it basically comes down to how you interpret how choices are presented. You fall under his first interpretation ("All choices are thoughts that the player character has, therefore they all make up the basis of their character and their capacity to act."), I fall under the second ("Only the choice the player picks represent the character, the other three choices as such never crossed the characters mind.") My Clem is not determined by the choices that she doesn't make, she is determined by the ones she does, and the other options are irrelevant to who she is.
It could also be concrete proof that she's a lesbian (and therefore whatever sexuality you like, if you pick Louis for example), lol. The idea is that, if you choose to go for Violet, nothing in the game so far says that Clementine was ever into men. We even get to pick what she felt for Gabriel in the first episode.
I like your argument better, but I still feel like it's lacking. I feel like there have definitely been instances in the game where the player has to choose between 2 options, and then has to justify later why they chose this option over the other option; thus implying that they considered both decisions. You can apply this to choosing between Violet or Louis
Please see my response to @Nikolaj-11's post
Hm, I sense a deviation towards a longer and possibly off-topic discussion here, but do you have any specifc choices that you feel are like that?
My first thought went to Lee. He's presented with the choice to save one or the other character a couple of times for example, but most memorably is Carly vs. Doug. Your interpretation is that Lee actively chooses one while still considering the other, where my interpretation was different, is that a good example?
This is a really interesting conversation! I feel like a lot of choices use this logic because this is a game that emphasizes choice, and therefore justifying choosing one option versus the other. We're (generally) rational human beings; we consider the costs and benefits of our potential actions, and choose the option that we perceive to be the best. Just to single out a few choices from the top of my head: Carley vs Doug, Shooting vs leaving Lee, Shooting Kenny vs letting him kill Jane, chopping off Sarita's arm vs not doing that
ETA: If we were to expand upon this cost-benefit calculus to the choice between Violet and Louis, the player - and Clem by extension - simply weighs the costs/benefits of romancing/befriending Violet or Louis, not whether Clem is straight or bi or gay.
Guys she is 100% Bi. Confirmed by writer Mary Kenney.
Now we can end this discussion peacefully.
F I N A L L Y T H A N K G O D F O R M A R Y
I FEEL SO BAD NOW because I just sent a really embarrassing ask to Kent Mudle on Tumblr asking for confirmation
Well, i'm glad it's been confirmed.
At least now we know
She kinda had to be in order to get the fanservice through with the story.
Same with Javier.
Alright, so I personally think that the only of those choices that you listed that definitely presents both choices actively within the narrative, and not just externally with the player, are the shoot vs. leave Lee, and the only reason I feel that is because the world within the Walking Dead as a whole places a lot of emphasis on mercy killing and the morality of killing a person before/after they turn (that turning in itself is a horrifying fate, even if you know you'll die just after). You can for example let Duck turn before you kill him, if you stand still with the gun for a long time.
Another good example is Javier shooting or not shooting Conrad, but that's because I see the choice coming up several times. It's a stand off after all, the whole point of a scene like that is to choose to or not to react prematurely in the first place.
As for the other examples I still feel like my interpretation works, at least with all of them I had gut reactions that I feel like I reflect onto Clementine, Javier and Lee, which means that she only ever considered the option that I picked. A part of it is gameplay and story segregation. Let me list them one after the other.
As I see it, there is a difference between the choices I as a player have, and how concious my player character are of those choices.
Okay then, it's settled.
That's nice, can you link the tweet? I wanna see the follow up comments if any appear.
https://mobile.twitter.com/maryknews/status/1053441399998140416
Cheers.
No offence but that makes no sense - kisses Gabe, Goes 100% with Louis - STILL BISEXUAL
No but really, this whole thing is a sham. I think we need to stop applying modern societal contexts to a fictional character in a post-apocalyptic world; a world in which Clementine has almost absolutely ZERO clue about sexuality and what it means in today's context. To her, girls can like girls, guys can like guys and girls can like guys and vice versa. I don't think she care's enough considering the far more important survival aspects at hand. Not us though - oooh no. We need to bang on about it to the point where we need confirmation from a developer, who probably has zero clue herself, to tell us what to think. Considering we ARE Clementine in the game, I think we are all capable of working things out for ourselves when it comes to what gender Clementine likes, given the obvious scenes in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I am not against the way relationships were done in TFS, but it all seems a bit too frivolous when were trying to stick a label on Clementine - a label which does not need to be applied.
Challenge Mary then? Ask her why. Do you have a twitter account?
I was legit about to ask as well lol. Thanks for doing God's work ??
Well I am in the process of challenging her. Let's see where this goes. Not good is how I am thinking at the moment.
Good luck! Link when you post, I wanna watch with popcorn.
Take a look, the comment is already there under a different alias.
She could have hundred off boyfrIends, and she still would be bi.
Based on what? A writers say so? If Mary can happily tell us Clementines sexuality then I am sure she can tell us Clementines age, her parents racial background, where the story takes place... wait a minute... that's for the player to decide? Hmmm....
Bisexuals can of never of had a relationship with the same sex and still be bi. This is coming from someone who is bi and hasn't dated a woman yet and I realised my attraction towards women way before my attraction towards men. As long as we feel it, it's there and we don't need to really prove that to anyone (I can't put that in an other way, so hopefully it doesn't come across as rude)
I don't think bobshaw disputes that.
There is a greater point I am trying to make here. The first part was just a joke. I'm not saying that she can't be bi regardless of player choices, but why does she HAVE to be bi?
So we have this fictional female character in a post-apocalyptic world. She has sexual and romantic attractions that can be influenced/determined by the player right? Fair enough. However, despite the fact that it is never explored, despite the fact that we can't even have something as simple as her age confirmed, despite the fact that Clementine herself from an in-game context probably doesn't know and probably doesn't care, it seems oh so important to label Clementine for certain as bisexual.
To say so much about her character is up to the player, it seems rather dubious for this to be some kind of 'confirmed canon'. I understand that it might help people relate to her but for what it's worth, Clementine can be whoever you want her to be, so it doesn't really matter.
Ohmygosh, I was correct. But this was some very deep discussion
Well for whats its worth, its been confirmed by skybound that she is 16
The burden of proof lies on you. Show me.
tis pretty much sums up how I look at it but everyone makes it so difficult
"No offence but that makes no sense - kisses Gabe, Goes 100% with Louis - STILL BISEXUAL", that argument makes no sense whatsoever. I've had boyfriends but that doesn't make me straight. This comment reminds me of my mom, whenever I date a girl she says, "Oh, so you're a lesbian now" and when I date a guy she says, "So this means you're straight?".
"Let me take the joke and argue that instead of debating the actual point at hand".
Here you go: https://mobile.twitter.com/ChenClem/status/1049331636377145346
I think their implying that if you choose these opitions that its possible for clem to be straight?? (like if you wanted her to be straight maybe?) I don't know
Fair enough. However there was a lot of uncertainty around this. A skybound reply to a message that asked the same question said that the details were up to the player. Could just he the result of a generic response but you just don't know. This is as much as i think we will get.
This is discussing I really really hate that this is even a thing I was really hoping that this would never be a thing but no they just had to do it .....I guess it was just a matter of time before they ruin one of the best characters in gaming history and I know I’m the only one but I can’t be quite about this anymore but it just keeps getting shoved in my face and I’m sick of it like HOW OUT OF NO WHERE did she just somewhat become bi I’m sorry I can’t stand this anymore I had to say something
I’m not exactly a fan of it either as I think it robs people of a choice in someway, but I fail to see how Clem’s sexuality ruins, or enhances, her character.
That type of thing has become rather political and is kinda all over the place nowadays as a result.