Season 2's Original Story?
Perhaps this could've been posted on the details thread, but I figured with the lack of new threads lately, and it being a summary of the whole Season, I figured it warranted its own thread.
Ok, so I'm sure by now that most of us know that Season 2 was meant to be a lot darker than it ended up actually being. And if what this guy said is true, it goes to show just how dark Season 2 was supposed to be.
Some of the things he mentions we know from other sources. Such as:
- Clementine being shot by Winston, and falling into the river with him.
Sam the dog & Clementine's hat.
Kenny being the Carver character.
Tavia dying by falling off the roof of Howe's.
Troy being a rapist, etc. While nothing officially confirmed, Owen Thomas mentions there being unused scenes of Troy that made him "WAY worse" than he ended up actually being.
Flashbacks of Christa (refer to the 1st video above, at 11:26)
Mike being Ralph (that third scavenger that attacks Christa, and is never seen again) confirmed by Dan White, Mike's VA.
http://mixlr.com/channel-1138/showreel/channel-1138s-mixlr-56/ (Skip to 1:30)Rebecca dying of blood loss from AJ in episode 3. (refer to the 1st video above at 2:29 & the 4th video at 3:39) Luke also says in No Going Back that she died due to losing too much blood (even though that's complete BS in that version, due to not bleeding at all, and all the choices you can make to ensure that she safely delivers the baby and recovers; but let's not bother with that can of worms for now.)
Eddie appearing in Amid the Ruins. Commencing Vietnam flashbacks in
3...
2...
1...
Kenny vs. Luke, was hinted at with the whole dick-measuring contest they were having ever since they met, and by Telltale before episode 5.
Clementine being alone with AJ, as seen in episode 5's original slide, back when it was called, "Better To Sleep".
Apparently this was all too dark, and needed to "feel" more Walking Dead like, which is what the Season 2 we ended up getting supposedly is.
Link to the comment here:
He also mentions more stuff like Vince fighting Mike in In Harm's Way, and helping Clem's group with Bonnie, as well as originally being planned to appear in episode 4. Kenny & Jane's original roles in Season 3 A New Frontier. Sarita & Jane not existing in Season 2's original story (what a shocker), as well as Matthew & Walter.
Comments
Ah,an interesting thread for once
I think most of the things he said are true,wish that stuff would have made it into the game instead of what we got.
Fuckin hell I love dark shit wish it was in amazing to see all this dark shit than what we got instead
I personally don’t believe they rewrote the script because it was too “dark”. Telltale always go through rewrites because of creative differences. I’m sure many writers had different views on what they wanted Kenny to do/become. Ultimately though, I think the original story concept would’ve turned out better because of what we got... cough Amid The Ruins cough.
But was that the case though? In ANF they rewrote everything due to it "not feeling like an authentic walking dead story" (their words), so it would make sense if S2 got the same treatment - even though I would've greatly preferred the old stories in both games (judging from the info we have about the old stories).
Why did they think it was too dark? Last of Us was released even before this game was and it had all the dark things that they were talking about here and then some. Did they think overall a younger audience was playing the Walking Dead games and Last of Us attracted a more adult audience?
In my opinion many of the same people played both. As they both were about zombies (or zombies in every since of the word other than title) and both were post apocalyptic story driven games as well.
I think some of the stuff sounds a little chaotic and the changes made probably made the game flow better in certain areas. However I do think it would have made the Howe's store portion of the game make more sense if it was Kenny running the place instead of Carver. As you could buy Kenny thinking highly of Clem but not really a brand new character that didn't know Clem from Adam.
Thanks for posting this! I LOVE learning more about the cut content from season 2. The ending in the original script sounds amazing! What I would give to play the old version... : (
tbh this kinda sounds fake
Wait, is this real?
Ah, so no rematch with Winston then? Sam was Kenny's dog at one point? Pete was gonna turn originally? What was gonna happen with Carlos? Nick shooting Becca?! Troy was actually almost an earlier case of Joan? Does this imply that Troy was AJ's dad? Jane and especially Sarita being added in is no surprise, but Walter and Matthew too? And what about the Russian Group?
Overall, I do agree that this version was WAAAAAY too dark! Even if the version we got still had a large number of problems, it seems that some of them were held over with some improvements in "balancing" addition to several newer ones. The final episode in particular is a huge WtF that still cancels itself out, even if a proper goodbye with Luke would've been nice.
Also, I'm kinda mixed on Kenny doing what amounts to obstacle course shit as "Carver."
Still, some of this is indeed kinda neat.
The Cabin being burned down would've been a great, gutpunching image.
Alvin determinately shooting Wyatt, only to be killed by Kenny was clearly reworked into his canon death with Hank instead, arguably for the better.
Eddie and even Vince's presence on Amid the Ruin's menu makes more sense now.
And of course, Sarah escaping to parts unknown. As it DAMN well should've been.
And if you don't mind me asking, what was Jane's original role in ANF?
I agree.
Kenny being such a problematic prominence in the story was clearly always a factor, but the story we got just screams of being complicated towards the end.
Mm...understandable.
Interesting to say the least...I did not know half of those lol but idk what I would've felt about Kenny becoming the villain and letting troy do anything he wants with clem......
Honestly wouldn't be surprised if Carlos was originally supposed to be the one beaten by Kenny Carver, rather than Kenny in episode 3. Perhaps this was retooled in episode 2? Matthew & Walter not being originally planned also caught me off guard as well. Though they only appear in one episode, so it isn't too surprising when you think about it.
I've already expressed how I feel about the final product of Season 2, several times now. So no need for me to delve into that now. I will say this though, as someone who loves dark shit, this Season 2 would've been right up my alley. Which is why I love Young and Young at Heart so much.
He explains Jane & Kenny's ANF roles in the comments. Basically for Jane, her, Clem, & and the family were going to meet David. The family was going to be killed by The New Frontier. Kenny & Jane would've been killed off sometime around episodes 4 & 5.
FUUUUUUCK! Man I can't stand that lame lack of authenticity excuse! Noo It's the Walking Dead for christ sakes! it's suppose to be dark not sunshine and cupcakes. If your going to replace the grittiness then replace it with something even more gritty.. not less or something unreasonably light hearted.. Both Season two and A New Frontier could of been amazing were it not for the rewrites that ruined them down the shitter. It's like taking the icing off a cake because it's too sugary. That is the point of it being dessert. Lord.. If this were a comedy like Tales From The Borderlands then you edit things out for more light hearted relief.
I'm really hoping season four doesn't get the same creative abuse. I think they kept season one as dark as it was suppose to be and look how classical that game was.
Yeah, the emphasis on 400 Days shit and Sam being Kenny's dog can give off that vibe.
If it makes it feel better, I got the vibe that Troy was doing some of those things behind Kenny's back.
I love how I had to go back and add a question about Carlos for this to have proper context.
But yeah, there's a pretty good theory that most of Kenny's scenes in Episode 3 and 4 were originally meant for Carlos. And if both of these are indeed true, then it's possible that came during the earlier big rewrites, since Carlos just kinda disappears here.
They had relatively original designs(even if I think they shared animations with Luke and Carlos) and much more original establishment compared to Kenny and Sarita, who just kinda popped in and took glory from Carlos, Sarah, Luke, and possibly Christa. Plus we know from the Telltale Stream that the Cabin Group were gonna run from the Cabin while the close to turning Pete stayed behind to hold out Carver's Search Party, which would imply they'd be on the run for a while anyway.
But hey, perhaps they really were at least partially made for the purpose of solidifying that Nick screwed up. And as Jane demonstrates, you can always put a lot of detail into a character that was added later.
Damn! Actual interaction with Randy, Patricia, and Gil? Man, what a waste.
Not sure how I feel about her and especially Kenny making it to the last two episodes, though.
To be fair, darkness alone isn't a great thing. Season 1 also had plenty of downtime, resonance, and just plain fun[ny] moments to balance things out.
Also, I found the source.
Here's more info.
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Take from this what you will.
To be fair , darkness ADDED is a great thing. fixed that for ya. and my sentiments exactly. You need balance with them cutting out most of the dark elements waters down the experience.
There's always that wall twd can't surpass...the TV show can't fuck fucking say that word and the game can't have dark shit...which sucks a lot.
I would take all of this information with a grain of salt. Some of it definitely looks true but the vast majority of it is based off of very vague details that fans have found in game files and have used their wild imaginations to fill in the rest.
The 'not feeling authentic' spial was just yet another excuse to cover up creative differences with Kirkman. They had to quickly rewrite the entire story in just a few months leading up to release, similar to the situation with TWAU after episode 2
I dunno, I'm gonna need some real sources for this.
It's not impossible to imagine, I mean sequels often are darker. But I need more proof. Yes we knew Troy was going to be something of a sexual creep/rapist but a pedophile who makes leering comments at Clem? That's a jump to another level.
And all the 400 days characters getting murdered after you spent time with them in the DLC, yeesh. If that is true, I would have been horrified. I can imagine Becca trying to act all Tough and Nick going trigger-happy on her just like he did with Mathew. But, still I need some actual sources here.
What? Pete's leg was going to be cut off then reanimated? That can't happen. An appendage has to be connected to the brain to come back.
This was a while back. This stuff has since been removed from where it was posted. Even before that, he made edits that contradicted what was posted before, such as taking off to Wellington, to Wellington never existing. Things like this tell me that most of this info is fake. I never 100% believed it anyway, considering how little was said about the last two episodes.
I still firmly believe in some things such as:
Rebecca dying in episode 3
Troy being a lot worse
400 Days characters actually being relevant
Eddie returning
Luke vs. Kenny
I love S2 the way it is, but some of this stuff would've been cool, like Kenny being Carver. But a lot of it is too much, like the shit with Troy. I'm glad they made the changes they did. Like not killing off the 400 days crew, leaving them unknown, leaves them open for future consideration.
I had linked the source just a few comments above yours.
Yeah, that's part of why I don't really buy it. Might even eclipse what was said about "Season 3's" original story.
Some asshole on youtube is a source?
It makes me think that, at least, episode 3 would have been MUCH longer originally and would have contained parts of Amid the Ruins. Then again, the amid the ruins title screen shows clem putting the blood on her face, so I dunno.
The ending of episode 2 was originally supposed to be the beginning of episode 3, as confirmed in the dev commentary, so take that for what you will. Honestly, with how many unused lines there are for episode 3, I wouldn't say it's too far fetched to think that the episode was meant to be longer; though I'd argue that for all the others as well...
There is one theory that the herd scene was meant to start at the beginning of the episode, rather than resume right where it left off in the final game. The Amid the Ruins slide also replaced Vince with Kenny, in later versions. The only reason I can think of for why this was done this, is due to Kenny originally being the Carver character.
The episode slide always made me think she was intended to die in episode 3.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I think his VA confirmed this. I think he was originally molesting Jane.
Some people on here raised a good point. There’s not really much evidence of this other than him appearing as a placeholder on an episode slide. If he was never intended to return they should’ve done a better job at hiding his face.
Of course.
The common theory is that Eddie was replaced by Arvo. The gun that Jane steals from Arvo has the same model as the one that Eddie uses in Wyatt's Story.
Jane also refers to Arvo as a junkie. A name more fitting for someone like Eddie.
400 Days music also plays during the choice on whether or not to take the medicine.
I'm sure there's more, but those are the things at the top of my head.
I always felt that Lilly was suposted to be back instead of Jane, and that growing tenese between Kenny and her would start a fight at the end of the season. What a wasted potential.
Imagine, ending with Kenny or Lilly! Too perfect to be true
I doubt that was ever supposed to happen. Though I'd find that very humorous if it did, considering that in episode 5, Kenny can mention that Jane feels like another Lilly situation. Still would've made more sense though, considering their past. Unlike Jane, who just starts talking shit out of nowhere, for the sake of pissing him off.
Apparently.
I thought it was the other way around?
It definitely stood out as having moments that were likely meant to lead in to other things on the first playthrough.
That'd make the intention for Rebecca to spit in Carver's skull and Clementine to [determinately?] run through the forest with Luke fit in a little better.
True, but it was most likely evidence that they meant to have those silhouettes in the background be the Howe's [Ski] Cabin Group.
Also, it's apparently Vince with Kenny's hair attached...?
Yes. That's likely why they specifically had her shoot him in the crotch.
There was another tweet where he more or less confirms that specifically, but the search I'm using isn't picking it up.
Eh, considering Jane herself was kinda planted in there and kept getting too big for her britches, I doubt it.
That's just more of them hitting on that nostalgia to get people hopped up.
Same thing happened before Jane started talking.
Personally, I believe what he mentioned was only half of the truth. While episode 3's beginning was going to be episode 2's ending, I think it was going to play out differently. Specifically Rebecca's death. I believe Rebecca was going to give birth to AJ inside the bathroom Ski Lodge, at the very beginning of the episode, and would've died as a result.
If you brighten it up, it is Vince's face. But the final silhouette is obviously meant to represent Kenny. Why else would they go out of their way to change his hairstyle?
Probably.
...Wait, what?
Okay, that's what I thought.