In my main save i shot Conrad so didn't get the glare but in my alternate save i didn't shoot him and Clem glared at me which made me feel like a asshole.
Ehm... But that's exactly the reason why it was smarter for Javier to shoot him.
Bullet travels fast enough to give another side no chance to react. Only way Conrad could still shoot him, even when dead, would be if a gun landed on his finger. But at that point, i doubt the gun would be faced in Gabe's direction. I doubt it would be faced in anyone's direction. The odds are pretty slim for that to happen.
Besides, what's the alternative? Giving a 13 years old girl to a group of bandits? Thanks, but no. I understand it's Javier's family, but if i was in his situation, i wouldn't possibly trade a life of a person who helped not once but few times already. But i can trade a life of a fucker who points a gun at my nephew for a kid that helped me few times already. Any day of the week.
You can say that if it wasnt a game, Javier couldnt be sure they are gonna let them in. Well, that's true. I still couldn't sell out a kid like that. It doesn't matter that kid was Clem. Even if it was a fuckwit like Gabe who was with the New Frontier, i would still choose to shoot Conrad instead.
No I was implying his nephew was at gunpoint and if he didn't agree to what the gunman was saying it could potentially put his nephews life … morein danger. If someone not so close to him was the one being held at gun point I could then see him being more willing to shoot.
I accepted Conrad's plan and I don't feel bad at all.
Clementine has been nothing but trouble. She treated me (Javier) like shit when we … morefirst met, and wanted me to LIE for her after she murdered someone. Then, she waited until the worst moment to tell me that she used to be apart of the New Frontier.
She expects me to turn down a possible way for Kate to get the help she needs? No. I'm not a traitor. Javier has known her for all of one fucking day. The Clementine I knew in Season 1 is gone. Season 2 Clem didn't even have a personality, and Season 3 Clem is a bitch.
Nope. I accepted the plan, and I'll do it again.
Ah, so she is the antagonist and not fucking The New frontier?
Lol, just because I say someone is trouble, doesn't mean I say that she's the main antagonist of the season. Besides, what is so bad about the New Frontier so far? Are they assholes, yeah, probably. Badger is the one cunt who disobeys what David would want, such as destroy Prescott and murder innocent people. Until we know more, let's keep an open mind about the New Frontier as a whole, not just Badger.
Then why didn't she just shoot him? Javi told her he owned a van and she knew where the junkyard was.
That's not the point. The point was that she kept Javi tied up, and STOLE from him, and calls it "payment for saving you". She treated him like shit. The only reason she helped Javi was out of self-interest.
Do you really think she wanted to murder someone? Eli had this coming
Oh, he had it coming? What the fuck do we know about Eli? Nothing. He could have had a few faulty bullets that he didn't even know about, but the others worked obviously -- since she KILLED him with one of them. He was shocked when Clementine fired the first faulty bullet. Clementine MURDERED him, and his first thought was to LIE about it, instead of feeling guilty that she killed someone.
Do you really think Clementine would have been the same after growing up so much?
Maybe, maybe not. Season 2 Clem had zero personality, and that's not the result of growing up. Season 3 Clem though... she's mean and bitchy. And thanks to Telltale (choices matter! woo!) her behavior is the exact same no matter what.
The plan is useless and pointless anyway. Trust me, Conrad is dead anyway.
Most likely, that's true. Since Telltale just doesn't give a fuck anymore. But at the time, (before prior knowledge of David leading the New Frontier, and before we knew literally anything about the New Frontier) they were walking up to the gates of a potentially terrible group of people. The best option was to hold one of their own (or former New Frontier person, i dunno, what do you call a New Frontier person? Pioneer? I dunno) and offer a trade. Clementine for Kate. Sounded fair to me. Javier has known Clementine for all of two days(?), whereas Kate is the love of his life (fuck yeah, cuckin' David is best part) and the step-mother to Gabe, who is Javi's nephew. Gabe just lost his sister, and now he's gonna lose Kate? Nope. Since I didn't care about Clementine in season 2, and I absolutely don't care for her in season 3 thus far, I'm not gonna be biased just because "oh its clem! shes never wrong! defend her always, even though she murdered someone!"
Clementine has been nothing but trouble
Ah, so she is the antagonist and not fucking The New frontier?
She treated me (Javier)… more like shit when we first met
Then why didn't she just shoot him? Javi told her he owned a van and she knew where the junkyard was.
wanted me to LIE for her after she murdered someone.
Do you really think she wanted to murder someone? Eli had this coming
The Clementine I knew in Season 1 is gone. Season 2 Clem didn't even have a personality, and Season 3 Clem is a bitch.
Do you really think Clementine would have been the same after growing up so much?
I accepted the plan, and I'll do it again.
The plan is useless and pointless anyway. Trust me, Conrad is dead anyway.
Honestly, Clem has been more harm than good. She's done hardly anything right since Javi was taken as her hostage. Not an antagonist, but certainly doing Javi no favors.
Just because someone isn't totally depraved and awful doesn't mean they're not depraved and awful.
You can hardly call it an accident when you point a gun, pull the trigger, and something comes out the barrel. And no, selling bad bullets, even if it was intentional does not mean he "had it coming".
Didn't think she'd be the same. Didn't think she'd be a murdering, lying, extorting, all around awful human being. There's an inbetween, you know?
I mean, yeah, Conrad is absolutely gonna die, if Nick and Albert and Kenny and Jane weren't proof enough, but it doesn't make the plan any worse. It could work before he dies.
Clementine has been nothing but trouble
Ah, so she is the antagonist and not fucking The New frontier?
She treated me (Javier)… more like shit when we first met
Then why didn't she just shoot him? Javi told her he owned a van and she knew where the junkyard was.
wanted me to LIE for her after she murdered someone.
Do you really think she wanted to murder someone? Eli had this coming
The Clementine I knew in Season 1 is gone. Season 2 Clem didn't even have a personality, and Season 3 Clem is a bitch.
Do you really think Clementine would have been the same after growing up so much?
I accepted the plan, and I'll do it again.
The plan is useless and pointless anyway. Trust me, Conrad is dead anyway.
Ah, so she is the antagonist and not fucking The New frontier?
Lol, just because I say someone is trouble, doesn't mean I say that s… morehe's the main antagonist of the season. Besides, what is so bad about the New Frontier so far? Are they assholes, yeah, probably. Badger is the one cunt who disobeys what David would want, such as destroy Prescott and murder innocent people. Until we know more, let's keep an open mind about the New Frontier as a whole, not just Badger.
Then why didn't she just shoot him? Javi told her he owned a van and she knew where the junkyard was.
That's not the point. The point was that she kept Javi tied up, and STOLE from him, and calls it "payment for saving you". She treated him like shit. The only reason she helped Javi was out of self-interest.
Do you really think she wanted to murder someone? Eli had this coming
Oh, he had it coming? What the fuck do we know about Eli? Nothing. He … [view original content]
I mean, yeah, Conrad is absolutely gonna die, if Nick and Albert and Kenny and Jane weren't proof enough, but it doesn't make the plan any worse. It could work before he dies.
David was revealed to be the leader of The New Frontier. He is Javi's brother so what's the point of holding Clem as hostage?
Honestly, Clem has been more harm than good. She's done hardly anything right since Javi was taken as her hostage. Not an antagonist, but ce… morertainly doing Javi no favors.
Just because someone isn't totally depraved and awful doesn't mean they're not depraved and awful.
You can hardly call it an accident when you point a gun, pull the trigger, and something comes out the barrel. And no, selling bad bullets, even if it was intentional does not mean he "had it coming".
Didn't think she'd be the same. Didn't think she'd be a murdering, lying, extorting, all around awful human being. There's an inbetween, you know?
I mean, yeah, Conrad is absolutely gonna die, if Nick and Albert and Kenny and Jane weren't proof enough, but it doesn't make the plan any worse. It could work before he dies.
So I should be thankful that that fucking car wreck left Javi as a survivor?
Wow, you're right, leaving a candy bar totally makes her a good character. Ha, guess all that extortion and blatant hostage taking was all cool then.
Still extorted from me and took me hostage. Even if I didn't shoot that guy.
After extorting a van from me, the van that allowed me and the family to live safely for years. And just before murdering a motherfucker.
Okay. Does that make up for blatant murder? I dunno...
Nice. Does that make up for blatant murder? 100% no.
Okay. She's on my side for a minute. Does that make her a good person, for not letting people on her side die? I don't really think so. Terminus in the show didn't kill their own. But are they good people? Hell no.
Awwwwww, okay Gabe, have fun with that murderer. I'm so glad he found literally one girl his age that wasn't his sister, and immediately started crushing on her.
She was still with the New Frontier, and was about to abandon me as soon as we left that tunnel, just because it suited her interests.
* She stopped the truck, so also saved you in the process
* She didnt take the candy bar if you asked her not to
* She didnt shoot you, ev… moreen if you shot that guy
* She trusted you and gave you a weapon
* She covered your family retreating
* She dug up a grave for your niece
* If you surrendered in that whole Prescott siege thing, she shot the guy that was most likely going to shoot you
* Gabe is clearly crushing on her
* She trusted you and told you she was with the New Frontier
Quite a lot of reasons to why not give her in
I mean, if those flashbacks are any indication, probably 0, but still, going into that situation, you don't know that it's David. And even looking back at it, having a prisoner for him will probably make him at least a little more happy with you, once he finds out about you and Kate.
I mean, yeah, Conrad is absolutely gonna die, if Nick and Albert and Kenny and Jane weren't proof enough, but it doesn't make the plan any w… moreorse. It could work before he dies.
David was revealed to be the leader of The New Frontier. He is Javi's brother so what's the point of holding Clem as hostage?
The point was that she kept Javi tied up, and STOLE from him, and calls it "payment for saving you". She treated him like shit. The only reason she helped Javi was out of self-interest.
But she cut him off and gave him the gun when she had no reason to do that.
Season 3 Clem though... she's mean and bitchy
Do you even remember what she has been through? She watched people die, lost her friends, was stuck in a community and witnessed gory and some shit.
Most likely, that's true. Since Telltale just doesn't give a fuck anymore. But at the time, (before prior knowledge of David leading the New Frontier, and before we knew literally anything about the New Frontier) they were walking up to the gates of a potentially terrible group of people. The best option was to hold one of their own (or former New Frontier person, i dunno, what do you call a New Frontier person? Pioneer? I dunno) and offer a trade. Clementine for Kate. Sounded fair to me. Javier has known Clementine for all of two days(?), whereas Kate is the love of his life (fuck yeah, cuckin' David is best part) and the step-mother to Gabe, who is Javi's nephew. Gabe just lost his sister, and now he's gonna lose Kate? Nope. Since I didn't care about Clementine in season 2, and I absolutely don't care for her in season 3 thus far, I'm not gonna be biased just because "oh its clem! shes never wrong! defend her always, even though she murdered someone!"
Yeah, I see that you forgot that if it wasn't for Clem, Javier wouldn't have seen his family again.
Oh, he had it coming? What the fuck do we know about Eli? Nothing. He could have had a few faulty bullets that he didn't even know about, but the others worked obviously -- since she KILLED him with one of them. He was shocked when Clementine fired the first faulty bullet. Clementine MURDERED him, and his first thought was to LIE about it, instead of feeling guilty that she killed someone.
Did you forget that he pulled his knife off? He wanted to kill Clem
Yeah. Intentionally or not - doesn't matter - you owe her that one anyway.
Small things matter too. She could easily take it from you with no consequences. But she didn't. She cared about what a total stranger said. It doesn't prove she is on Javier's side or anything, but it proves she is at least not a bad person.
So? She didn't know you. And she didn't take you as a hostage. You were already tied up, she only pointed a gun at you and asked few questions.
But she also told you where your family is and helped you get there. She could have killed you and got the van anyway.
Some random asshole who almost got you and her killed then proceeded to charge with a knife at you? This is the guy you are talking about? I'm really glad that little accident happened. Also, you didn't know the guy. She didn't owe you anything. So there is no 'making up' to anything.
Same thing here.
Clementine wasn't on Javier's side. She was nice to him, yes, but she really didn't owe him anything - even if Javier lied for her.
Yeah. It's zombie apocalypse. Any guy in his age would instantly crush on any girl around his own age. Besides, who isn't a murdered at that point? And who said murder by itself is bad? If you ask me, it's only bad if the person killed was good. Game told us that guy was an asshole, and his actions prove so too.
Yeah, your point is? If she went with you she would put herself at danger, and for what? For just being with you? Javier is not Lee.
As far as i can see, you're saying Clementine cannot be trusted because she went a little overboard with an argument and accidentally shot a "A-rated-certified-dipshit".
I'm not saying she is full in, and she is basically Javier's companion, but i'm saying there is no reason to rat her out.
* So I should be thankful that that fucking car wreck left Javi as a survivor?
* Wow, you're right, leaving a candy bar totally makes her a… more good character. Ha, guess all that extortion and blatant hostage taking was all cool then.
* Still extorted from me and took me hostage. Even if I didn't shoot that guy.
* After extorting a van from me, the van that allowed me and the family to live safely for years. And just before murdering a motherfucker.
* Okay. Does that make up for blatant murder? I dunno...
* Nice. Does that make up for blatant murder? 100% no.
* Okay. She's on my side for a minute. Does that make her a good person, for not letting people on her side die? I don't really think so. Terminus in the show didn't kill their own. But are they good people? Hell no.
* Awwwwww, okay Gabe, have fun with that murderer. I'm so glad he found literally one girl his age that wasn't his sister, and immediately started crushing on her.
* She… [view original content]
We might actually be surprised since TTG might have realized how pissed off everyone is at determinant characters and give him the Carley / Doug treatment.
But she cut him off and gave him the gun when she had no reason to do that.
She only gave him the gun because she needed his assistance to get to Prescott. They had to clear out walkers when they arrived at the gates. Again, acting out of self-interest.
Do you even remember what she has been through? She watched people die, lost her friends, was stuck in a community and witnessed gory and some shit.
Yes, I played the last two seasons. I also witnessed those shitty flashbacks. Listen, I'm okay with her being all bitchy, but the fact that she is that way NO MATTER WHAT you do in previous seasons, is annoying. And she's just unlikable. Also, Clem has been incredibly vague on what the New Frontier did to her. Her description was, "It was bad." Yeah, okay then. You don't know that she "witnessed gory or some shit"
Yeah, I see that you forgot that if it wasn't for Clem, Javier wouldn't have seen his family again.
Maybe. Maybe not. You're not addressing any other points in that wall of text. Think of yourself as Javier, some 14 year old bitchy teenage girl is pretty much the key to getting into The New Frontier's base and get help for Kate. And your only knowledge of The New Frontier is that they murder people for pretty much nothing. Are you going to walk to the front gates, without ANY sort of advantage to get inside, just because a 14 year old girl helped you once or twice? Or are you going to do whatever you have to do to save your girlfriend?
The point was that she kept Javi tied up, and STOLE from him, and calls it "payment for saving you". She treated him like shit. The only rea… moreson she helped Javi was out of self-interest.
But she cut him off and gave him the gun when she had no reason to do that.
Season 3 Clem though... she's mean and bitchy
Do you even remember what she has been through? She watched people die, lost her friends, was stuck in a community and witnessed gory and some shit.
Most likely, that's true. Since Telltale just doesn't give a fuck anymore. But at the time, (before prior knowledge of David leading the New Frontier, and before we knew literally anything about the New Frontier) they were walking up to the gates of a potentially terrible group of people. The best option was to hold one of their own (or former New Frontier person, i dunno, what do you call a New Frontier person? Pioneer? I dunno) and offer a trade. Clementine for Kat… [view original content]
Granted, it was reckless to point a gun at someone even if the bullets were poor quality, which she and Jav find out at a pretty bad time to find out. But after finding out he's been separated from his family, she could have just as easily told him tough shit, keep walking. Javier would have been completely alone in a strange place, having woken up mid drive and having no clue where he was. She not only helps fight off the returning NF group at the junk yard, but ends up digging a grave for Mari and sticks around with him even after saying she'll only take him back to Prescott. She talks to Gabe after he pulls a gun on Conrad when he's threatening Javier, and has absolutely no reason other than trusting him to reveal who she really was and why she can't keep on with them to Richmond, not long after nearly having a panic attack when Jesus reveals its been taken over by the group.
You've literally known Conrad for less time than Clem, he's been at your throat for most of that time, and he wants to trade the girl who's not much older than Javiers niece and has looked out for him to the group that shot his niece in the head because she was standing out in the open. It has nothing to do with being a traitor, based on everything we've seen so far this group could have been just as likely to open fire as soon as they recognized them, regardless of bringing a former member they'll probably subject to the same justice as Prescott if they bargain. Even if I'm playing Javier as someone completely new to the series with no knowledge of the characters, I wouldn't play him as a guy with no loyalty to anyone but himself. I also don't get how Clem has no personality in S2, you make a lot of the decisions for her so its pretty variable defined. But then, by this logic Javier has no personality in ANF because I've chosen how he responds to situations.
Ah, so she is the antagonist and not fucking The New frontier?
Lol, just because I say someone is trouble, doesn't mean I say that s… morehe's the main antagonist of the season. Besides, what is so bad about the New Frontier so far? Are they assholes, yeah, probably. Badger is the one cunt who disobeys what David would want, such as destroy Prescott and murder innocent people. Until we know more, let's keep an open mind about the New Frontier as a whole, not just Badger.
Then why didn't she just shoot him? Javi told her he owned a van and she knew where the junkyard was.
That's not the point. The point was that she kept Javi tied up, and STOLE from him, and calls it "payment for saving you". She treated him like shit. The only reason she helped Javi was out of self-interest.
Do you really think she wanted to murder someone? Eli had this coming
Oh, he had it coming? What the fuck do we know about Eli? Nothing. He … [view original content]
So she trusted Javi after stealing from him. That doesn't sound like something a good human would do. That sounds like something a dumbass would do. Or someone who knows that fanboys will love her no matter what would do.
Sophia watched her own mother commit suicide. Carl watched his mom die, and then watched her corpse crush his baby sister. The two of them saw everyone else that died in that comic, too, and better yet, were younger and more impressionable than Clem. And what drove Carl to the edge was worse than anything Clementine has ever seen. And even then, Carl was never as awful as Clementine is right now.
Okay. She accidentally helped him. That proves nothing about anything. And even then, Rufus, the guy Javi can shoot in the back, was heading to The New Frontier anyways, where Javi would have told David about the last place his family was seen alive, and they would have gone back immediately, in a car, quicker than Clem would ever be able to do. So if you think about it, Clem still fucked Javi over.
The point was that she kept Javi tied up, and STOLE from him, and calls it "payment for saving you". She treated him like shit. The only rea… moreson she helped Javi was out of self-interest.
But she cut him off and gave him the gun when she had no reason to do that.
Season 3 Clem though... she's mean and bitchy
Do you even remember what she has been through? She watched people die, lost her friends, was stuck in a community and witnessed gory and some shit.
Most likely, that's true. Since Telltale just doesn't give a fuck anymore. But at the time, (before prior knowledge of David leading the New Frontier, and before we knew literally anything about the New Frontier) they were walking up to the gates of a potentially terrible group of people. The best option was to hold one of their own (or former New Frontier person, i dunno, what do you call a New Frontier person? Pioneer? I dunno) and offer a trade. Clementine for Kat… [view original content]
Wont happen, carley and doug worked because you could have one or the other. They could have a role because there had to be one in each game. The most we could get out of it is a ben type character whos in the background most of the time but maybe has his own scene. Though given 90+% of players killed conrad i'll be surpised if they put much effort into into it.
Im guessing .... Conrad starts flipping out at the new frontier and dies and the new frontier capture clementine if you killed conrad thus making the stories identical again.
We might actually be surprised since TTG might have realized how pissed off everyone is at determinant characters and give him the Carley / Doug treatment.
She only gave him the gun because she needed his assistance to get to Prescott. They had to clear out walkers when they arrived at the gates. Again, acting out of self-interest.
How is this making any sense?
Think of yourself as Javier, some 14 year old bitchy teenage girl is pretty much the key to getting into The New Frontier's base and get help for Kate.
That pretty much became pointless since David is convenietly the leader of The New Frontier.
Listen, I'm okay with her being all bitchy, but the fact that she is that way NO MATTER WHAT you do in previous seasons, is annoying
But she cut him off and gave him the gun when she had no reason to do that.
She only gave him the gun because she needed his assista… morence to get to Prescott. They had to clear out walkers when they arrived at the gates. Again, acting out of self-interest.
Do you even remember what she has been through? She watched people die, lost her friends, was stuck in a community and witnessed gory and some shit.
Yes, I played the last two seasons. I also witnessed those shitty flashbacks. Listen, I'm okay with her being all bitchy, but the fact that she is that way NO MATTER WHAT you do in previous seasons, is annoying. And she's just unlikable. Also, Clem has been incredibly vague on what the New Frontier did to her. Her description was, "It was bad." Yeah, okay then. You don't know that she "witnessed gory or some shit"
Yeah, I see that you forgot that if it wasn't for Clem, Javier wouldn't have seen his family again.
… [view original content]
She. Wanted. A. Helping. Hand. She didn't give him the gun because she suddenly trusted him.
That pretty much became pointless since David is convenietly the leader of The New Frontier.
As me and Harpadarpa have said several times now, in the moment, YOU DO NOT KNOW that David is the leader. The choice of accepting the plan or shooting Conrad happens BEFORE the reveal. You literally have no idea about The New Frontier's hierachy or anything.
What were you expecting? It's Telltale.
Well, I was hoping Telltale wouldn't be completely fucking lazy but apparently that's too much to ask for.
She only gave him the gun because she needed his assistance to get to Prescott. They had to clear out walkers when they arrived at the gates… more. Again, acting out of self-interest.
How is this making any sense?
Think of yourself as Javier, some 14 year old bitchy teenage girl is pretty much the key to getting into The New Frontier's base and get help for Kate.
That pretty much became pointless since David is convenietly the leader of The New Frontier.
Listen, I'm okay with her being all bitchy, but the fact that she is that way NO MATTER WHAT you do in previous seasons, is annoying
What were you expecting? It's Telltale.
But she cut him off and gave him the gun when she had no reason to do that.
She only gave him the gun because she needed his assista… morence to get to Prescott. They had to clear out walkers when they arrived at the gates. Again, acting out of self-interest.
Do you even remember what she has been through? She watched people die, lost her friends, was stuck in a community and witnessed gory and some shit.
Yes, I played the last two seasons. I also witnessed those shitty flashbacks. Listen, I'm okay with her being all bitchy, but the fact that she is that way NO MATTER WHAT you do in previous seasons, is annoying. And she's just unlikable. Also, Clem has been incredibly vague on what the New Frontier did to her. Her description was, "It was bad." Yeah, okay then. You don't know that she "witnessed gory or some shit"
Yeah, I see that you forgot that if it wasn't for Clem, Javier wouldn't have seen his family again.
… [view original content]
Wont happen, carley and doug worked because you could have one or the other. They could have a role because there had to be one in each game… more. The most we could get out of it is a ben type character whos in the background most of the time but maybe has his own scene. Though given 90+% of players killed conrad i'll be surpised if they put much effort into into it.
Im guessing .... Conrad starts flipping out at the new frontier and dies and the new frontier capture clementine if you killed conrad thus making the stories identical again.
She could have gotten Javi killed. Like seriously it was all random chance that he survived. You don't owe her jack.
She still murdered, extorted, and lied straight to your face. A chocolate bar is minor evidence compared to all that.
That just sounds like taking someone else's prisoner.
That's your strongest point, but still, not being a total depraved lunatic doesn't make you a good person. That's like saying that, because Javi didn't kill her once they were at the junkyard, to prevent the theft of his van, that makes him a good person. Not killing someone doesn't make you a good person.
And then sat unarmed, as Clementine pulled the trigger over and over again? Yeah, I am talking about that guy.
Same thing here.
Okay, so you're saying Javi owes her for a chocolate bar, but Javi lying and saving her ass doesn't mean she owes him anything? You're moving the goal post as it suits you.
Yeah, a guy his age would crush on anyone his own age, and that was my point. He hardly knows anything about her, and is already crushing on her, even despite the awful shit she's done in the first episode alone. Also, murder is bad. I didn't think I'd have to establish this, but ending another person's life, even one that you personally believe to be bad, is a bad thing. It should only be used as a last resort if anything, but there Clementine was, pushing a gun in a man's face, and pulling the trigger over and over again.
You know, you're actually right on that. She did trust Javi, and stick with him even after she didn't have to. I mean, I'd still argue that that doesn't put her safety over Kate's, but I guess that'd be a point number 10? I concede on 9.
* Yeah. Intentionally or not - doesn't matter - you owe her that one anyway.
* Small things matter too. She could easily take it from you w… moreith no consequences. But she didn't. She cared about what a total stranger said. It doesn't prove she is on Javier's side or anything, but it proves she is at least not a bad person.
* So? She didn't know you. And she didn't take you as a hostage. You were already tied up, she only pointed a gun at you and asked few questions.
* But she also told you where your family is and helped you get there. She could have killed you and got the van anyway.
* Some random asshole who almost got you and her killed then proceeded to charge with a knife at you? This is the guy you are talking about? I'm really glad that little accident happened. Also, you didn't know the guy. She didn't owe you anything. So there is no 'making up' to anything.
* Same thing here.
* Clementine wasn't on Javier's side. She was nice to … [view original content]
You don't get points for accidentally doing something good. Hitler's torture chambers, and vivisections actually gave science and medicine huge amounts of information that they wouldn't have otherwise. You don't hear anybody praising Hitler as contributing to medicine.
EDIT: Also, good job ignoring the rest of the points.
You don't get points for accidentally doing something good. Hitler's torture chambers, and vivisections actually gave science and medicine h… moreuge amounts of information that they wouldn't have otherwise. You don't hear anybody praising Hitler as contributing to medicine.
EDIT: Also, good job ignoring the rest of the points.
But in the end he did survive and she did unintentionally rescue him.
She accidentally killed some guy. She lied about it, yes, so what? I mean, technically that guy DID attack Javier, but she killed him after he did that. Not entirely a lie.
For me that sounds like being reasonably cautious.
Not killing someone doesn't make you a good person, but helping someone find their family for something like just a van that could run out of gas, lose a tire, or simply break is a really good trade, and i would say that is rather a + on your karma level.
From what i know she pulled the trigger twice.
.
Not at all. If you lied for her, you payed her back for unintentionally rescuing you. But you still owe her shooting the guy if you surrendered and covering your family.
That's what you think. She didn't actually mean to kill him. She did put a gun in his face, but she didnt kill him intentionally. Maybe for you killing somebody is always on that same level of wrong. For me it doesn't work that way. I don't see the world in black and white colors. So yeah. What she did was wrong. But it wasn't terrible. I would put that whole accident on a level of killing an animal to eat it. More or less, it's how valuable that man was for me (or how valuable i think he was for the world).
* She could have gotten Javi killed. Like seriously it was all random chance that he survived. You don't owe her jack.
* She still murdered… more, extorted, and lied straight to your face. A chocolate bar is minor evidence compared to all that.
* That just sounds like taking someone else's prisoner.
* That's your strongest point, but still, not being a total depraved lunatic doesn't make you a good person. That's like saying that, because Javi didn't kill her once they were at the junkyard, to prevent the theft of his van, that makes him a good person. Not killing someone doesn't make you a good person.
* And then sat unarmed, as Clementine pulled the trigger over and over again? Yeah, I am talking about that guy.
* Same thing here.
* Okay, so you're saying Javi owes her for a chocolate bar, but Javi lying and saving her ass doesn't mean she owes him anything? You're moving the goal post as it suits you.
* Yeah, a guy his age would crush on … [view original content]
If you decided to surrender at Prescott gates, she shot the guy to help you.
That's a somewhat fair point, but she just shot someone who was gonna kill Javi, while he was still surrounded by a bunch of New Frontier dickheads. He could have been gunned down like Francine, but plot protected him. But at least she tried, I'll give her that.
Not mentioning she was at Prescott only because she wanted to warn everybody. She had a car. She could have went anywhere else.
Did she warn them? I stayed with Clem at the end of Episode 1, she only said she'd take me back to Prescott to see Kate and Gabe.
She covered your family's retreat
I suppose so, but what else was she going to do? Run away? They were pinned down.
She dug up a grave for your niece
Alright, cool. That doesn't really make up for everything else she did.
She told Javier she was with the New Frontier (opposite of self-interest)
She could have told him way earlier, before they were nearly at the fucking place.
You do have a few good points. I will give you that.
Clem often acted out of her self-interested, but not always.
If you decided to surrender at Prescott gates, she shot the guy to help you.… more
Not mentioning she was at Prescott only because she wanted to warn everybody. She had a car. She could have went anywhere else.
She covered your family's retreat
She dug up a grave for your niece
She told Javier she was with the New Frontier (opposite of self-interest)
And we're only 2 episodes in. Two very short episodes (compared to TWD Season 1).
Overall - she is harsh, but a good person.
Well you really didn't address the whole murder thing. You said granted as if you were going to elaborate, but then moved onto different points. It wasn't reckless, it was murder of the second degree at best. People end up in prison for longer than Clementine's been alive for that. Other than that, Clem not telling Javi tough shit is probably the best thing she's done, but it doesn't come close to exonerating her for murdering a man, and for attempting to extort what's kept Javi and his family alive for so long.
As for Conrad, Conrad is definitely a loose cannon, and not someone I enjoy, but his plan was in the best interest of Kate, who is one of Javi's VIPs at this point. He wants to trade the girl who has ties to this group, and who has murdered men in cold blood in front of Javi, in order to give him a better chance at saving one of the people he loves. That choice wasn't about Conrad, tbh. It was about saving Kate. At least in my eyes. If shooting Conrad would've saved Kate, I would've thought that was the right answer as well.
Granted, it was reckless to point a gun at someone even if the bullets were poor quality, which she and Jav find out at a pretty bad time to… more find out. But after finding out he's been separated from his family, she could have just as easily told him tough shit, keep walking. Javier would have been completely alone in a strange place, having woken up mid drive and having no clue where he was. She not only helps fight off the returning NF group at the junk yard, but ends up digging a grave for Mari and sticks around with him even after saying she'll only take him back to Prescott. She talks to Gabe after he pulls a gun on Conrad when he's threatening Javier, and has absolutely no reason other than trusting him to reveal who she really was and why she can't keep on with them to Richmond, not long after nearly having a panic attack when Jesus reveals its been taken over by the group.
You've literally known Conrad for less time than Clem, he's b… [view original content]
I also don't get how Clem has no personality in S2, you make a lot of the decisions for her so its pretty variable defined. But then, by this logic Javier has no personality in ANF because I've chosen how he responds to situations.
She doesn't have any personality in Season 2 because as Lee and Javier, you can act a certain way based on dialogue options. But as Clementine, you're still the same bland characterless 11 year old. You can say a few things different, but you're more or less acting the exact same way.
Granted, it was reckless to point a gun at someone even if the bullets were poor quality, which she and Jav find out at a pretty bad time to… more find out. But after finding out he's been separated from his family, she could have just as easily told him tough shit, keep walking. Javier would have been completely alone in a strange place, having woken up mid drive and having no clue where he was. She not only helps fight off the returning NF group at the junk yard, but ends up digging a grave for Mari and sticks around with him even after saying she'll only take him back to Prescott. She talks to Gabe after he pulls a gun on Conrad when he's threatening Javier, and has absolutely no reason other than trusting him to reveal who she really was and why she can't keep on with them to Richmond, not long after nearly having a panic attack when Jesus reveals its been taken over by the group.
You've literally known Conrad for less time than Clem, he's b… [view original content]
If you decided to surrender at Prescott gates, she shot the guy to help you.
That's a somewhat fair point, but she just shot someone… more who was gonna kill Javi, while he was still surrounded by a bunch of New Frontier dickheads. He could have been gunned down like Francine, but plot protected him. But at least she tried, I'll give her that.
Not mentioning she was at Prescott only because she wanted to warn everybody. She had a car. She could have went anywhere else.
Did she warn them? I stayed with Clem at the end of Episode 1, she only said she'd take me back to Prescott to see Kate and Gabe.
She covered your family's retreat
I suppose so, but what else was she going to do? Run away? They were pinned down.
She dug up a grave for your niece
Alright, cool. That doesn't really make up for everything else she did.
She told Javier she was with the New Frontier (opposite of self-interest)
… [view original content]
Did she warn them? I stayed with Clem at the end of Episode 1, she only said she'd take me back to Prescott to see Kate and Gabe.
Ye… moreah, that happens if you go with your family instead.
I suppose so, but what else was she going to do? Run away? They were pinned down.
Well, she actually could have done that.
She could have told him way earlier, before they were nearly at the fucking place.
Apparently she didnt think she can trust him. Besides, she could have never told him, she had no reason to actually tell him.
Again, unintentionally doing something right doesn't prove anything. I'll bring up the same example I brought to the other guy. Hitler's torture chambers and vivisections gave science and medicine huge amounts of information that they never would have known otherwise. Do you ever hear people praising Hitler for contributing to medicine? Accidentally means nothing.
Can you call it an accident when you sit in front of a guy's face, pulling the trigger over and over again? You can't. That's murder in the second degree. It it entirely a lie, when you say she had to shoot.
Alright, sure. She then proceeds to extort your van from you. Not shooting you on sight gave her the chance to rob you.
When it's on your way, and the guy you're bringing along is another gun to help keep you safe? It's just what falls in her self interest. She did not go out of her way at all to help. It's basically the least possible effort "help" you could ever do. And also, a van that was last reported as perfectly in shape is huge in an apocalypse.
In rapid succession. Just to prove a point. She was interrupted, when the gun did what guns do.
Moving point 7 to point 6. Again, unintentional doesn't mean jack. And, as I argued to the other guy, had she not intervened, Kate and Gabe would've gotten saved a lot quicker.
That's still 2nd degree murder. Here. Let me define that for you.
Google defines it as:
n. a non-premeditated killing, resulting from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility. Second degree murder is different from first degree murder, which is a premeditated, intentional killing or results from a vicious crime such as arson, rape or armed robbery.
Tell me forcing a man in a chair and pulling a trigger in his face is NOT "an assault in which the death of the victim was a distinct possibility."
* But in the end he did survive and she did unintentionally rescue him.
* She accidentally killed some guy. She lied about it, yes, so what… more? I mean, technically that guy DID attack Javier, but she killed him after he did that. Not entirely a lie.
* For me that sounds like being reasonably cautious.
* Not killing someone doesn't make you a good person, but helping someone find their family for something like just a van that could run out of gas, lose a tire, or simply break is a really good trade, and i would say that is rather a + on your karma level.
* From what i know she pulled the trigger twice.
* .
* Not at all. If you lied for her, you payed her back for unintentionally rescuing you. But you still owe her shooting the guy if you surrendered and covering your family.
* That's what you think. She didn't actually mean to kill him. She did put a gun in his face, but she didnt kill him intentionally. Maybe for you killing somebody is … [view original content]
Clementine's not stupid. If she ran off on her own, she'd get fucking shot.
There was quite a lot of stuff separating them and those guys. And she is small. Making a run for it was much safer than facing them (even with Javier). I mean, seriously, i feel like those guys learned how to shoot from stormtroopers.
Well, she actually could have done that.
Clementine's not stupid. If she ran off on her own, she'd get fucking shot.
Apparentl… morey she didnt think she can trust him. Besides, she could have never told him, she had no reason to actually tell him.
Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, the timing was terrible.
Comments
I shot him, but it was only because he had my nephew. I don't let Clementine influence my decisions and will always pick my family over her.
I shot Conrad. Conrad was nothing but a troublemaker.
NoRegrets
In my main save i shot Conrad so didn't get the glare but in my alternate save i didn't shoot him and Clem glared at me which made me feel like a asshole.
I wonder how fast he will die in episode 3?
Ehm... But that's exactly the reason why it was smarter for Javier to shoot him.
Bullet travels fast enough to give another side no chance to react. Only way Conrad could still shoot him, even when dead, would be if a gun landed on his finger. But at that point, i doubt the gun would be faced in Gabe's direction. I doubt it would be faced in anyone's direction. The odds are pretty slim for that to happen.
Besides, what's the alternative? Giving a 13 years old girl to a group of bandits? Thanks, but no. I understand it's Javier's family, but if i was in his situation, i wouldn't possibly trade a life of a person who helped not once but few times already. But i can trade a life of a fucker who points a gun at my nephew for a kid that helped me few times already. Any day of the week.
You can say that if it wasnt a game, Javier couldnt be sure they are gonna let them in. Well, that's true. I still couldn't sell out a kid like that. It doesn't matter that kid was Clem. Even if it was a fuckwit like Gabe who was with the New Frontier, i would still choose to shoot Conrad instead.
He'll just have a few lines. In episode 4, he won't have any voice role and dies off-screen as a walker stuck in the fence.
Quite a lot of reasons to why not give her in
Lol, just because I say someone is trouble, doesn't mean I say that she's the main antagonist of the season. Besides, what is so bad about the New Frontier so far? Are they assholes, yeah, probably. Badger is the one cunt who disobeys what David would want, such as destroy Prescott and murder innocent people. Until we know more, let's keep an open mind about the New Frontier as a whole, not just Badger.
That's not the point. The point was that she kept Javi tied up, and STOLE from him, and calls it "payment for saving you". She treated him like shit. The only reason she helped Javi was out of self-interest.
Oh, he had it coming? What the fuck do we know about Eli? Nothing. He could have had a few faulty bullets that he didn't even know about, but the others worked obviously -- since she KILLED him with one of them. He was shocked when Clementine fired the first faulty bullet. Clementine MURDERED him, and his first thought was to LIE about it, instead of feeling guilty that she killed someone.
Maybe, maybe not. Season 2 Clem had zero personality, and that's not the result of growing up. Season 3 Clem though... she's mean and bitchy. And thanks to Telltale (choices matter! woo!) her behavior is the exact same no matter what.
Most likely, that's true. Since Telltale just doesn't give a fuck anymore. But at the time, (before prior knowledge of David leading the New Frontier, and before we knew literally anything about the New Frontier) they were walking up to the gates of a potentially terrible group of people. The best option was to hold one of their own (or former New Frontier person, i dunno, what do you call a New Frontier person? Pioneer? I dunno) and offer a trade. Clementine for Kate. Sounded fair to me. Javier has known Clementine for all of two days(?), whereas Kate is the love of his life (fuck yeah, cuckin' David is best part) and the step-mother to Gabe, who is Javi's nephew. Gabe just lost his sister, and now he's gonna lose Kate? Nope. Since I didn't care about Clementine in season 2, and I absolutely don't care for her in season 3 thus far, I'm not gonna be biased just because "oh its clem! shes never wrong! defend her always, even though she murdered someone!"
Honestly, Clem has been more harm than good. She's done hardly anything right since Javi was taken as her hostage. Not an antagonist, but certainly doing Javi no favors.
Just because someone isn't totally depraved and awful doesn't mean they're not depraved and awful.
You can hardly call it an accident when you point a gun, pull the trigger, and something comes out the barrel. And no, selling bad bullets, even if it was intentional does not mean he "had it coming".
Didn't think she'd be the same. Didn't think she'd be a murdering, lying, extorting, all around awful human being. There's an inbetween, you know?
I mean, yeah, Conrad is absolutely gonna die, if Nick and Albert and Kenny and Jane weren't proof enough, but it doesn't make the plan any worse. It could work before he dies.
Now read what @Adamiks said.
David was revealed to be the leader of The New Frontier. He is Javi's brother so what's the point of holding Clem as hostage?
Yeah, sure, ignore all my arguments
I mean, if those flashbacks are any indication, probably 0, but still, going into that situation, you don't know that it's David. And even looking back at it, having a prisoner for him will probably make him at least a little more happy with you, once he finds out about you and Kate.
No, I don't want to repeat what he said because he said what I wanted to say.
lol rip, ik that feel my man.
But she cut him off and gave him the gun when she had no reason to do that.
Do you even remember what she has been through? She watched people die, lost her friends, was stuck in a community and witnessed gory and some shit.
Yeah, I see that you forgot that if it wasn't for Clem, Javier wouldn't have seen his family again.
Did you forget that he pulled his knife off? He wanted to kill Clem
As far as i can see, you're saying Clementine cannot be trusted because she went a little overboard with an argument and accidentally shot a "A-rated-certified-dipshit".
I'm not saying she is full in, and she is basically Javier's companion, but i'm saying there is no reason to rat her out.
We might actually be surprised since TTG might have realized how pissed off everyone is at determinant characters and give him the Carley / Doug treatment.
She only gave him the gun because she needed his assistance to get to Prescott. They had to clear out walkers when they arrived at the gates. Again, acting out of self-interest.
Yes, I played the last two seasons. I also witnessed those shitty flashbacks. Listen, I'm okay with her being all bitchy, but the fact that she is that way NO MATTER WHAT you do in previous seasons, is annoying. And she's just unlikable. Also, Clem has been incredibly vague on what the New Frontier did to her. Her description was, "It was bad." Yeah, okay then. You don't know that she "witnessed gory or some shit"
Maybe. Maybe not. You're not addressing any other points in that wall of text. Think of yourself as Javier, some 14 year old bitchy teenage girl is pretty much the key to getting into The New Frontier's base and get help for Kate. And your only knowledge of The New Frontier is that they murder people for pretty much nothing. Are you going to walk to the front gates, without ANY sort of advantage to get inside, just because a 14 year old girl helped you once or twice? Or are you going to do whatever you have to do to save your girlfriend?
Granted, it was reckless to point a gun at someone even if the bullets were poor quality, which she and Jav find out at a pretty bad time to find out. But after finding out he's been separated from his family, she could have just as easily told him tough shit, keep walking. Javier would have been completely alone in a strange place, having woken up mid drive and having no clue where he was. She not only helps fight off the returning NF group at the junk yard, but ends up digging a grave for Mari and sticks around with him even after saying she'll only take him back to Prescott. She talks to Gabe after he pulls a gun on Conrad when he's threatening Javier, and has absolutely no reason other than trusting him to reveal who she really was and why she can't keep on with them to Richmond, not long after nearly having a panic attack when Jesus reveals its been taken over by the group.
You've literally known Conrad for less time than Clem, he's been at your throat for most of that time, and he wants to trade the girl who's not much older than Javiers niece and has looked out for him to the group that shot his niece in the head because she was standing out in the open. It has nothing to do with being a traitor, based on everything we've seen so far this group could have been just as likely to open fire as soon as they recognized them, regardless of bringing a former member they'll probably subject to the same justice as Prescott if they bargain. Even if I'm playing Javier as someone completely new to the series with no knowledge of the characters, I wouldn't play him as a guy with no loyalty to anyone but himself. I also don't get how Clem has no personality in S2, you make a lot of the decisions for her so its pretty variable defined. But then, by this logic Javier has no personality in ANF because I've chosen how he responds to situations.
So she trusted Javi after stealing from him. That doesn't sound like something a good human would do. That sounds like something a dumbass would do. Or someone who knows that fanboys will love her no matter what would do.
Sophia watched her own mother commit suicide. Carl watched his mom die, and then watched her corpse crush his baby sister. The two of them saw everyone else that died in that comic, too, and better yet, were younger and more impressionable than Clem. And what drove Carl to the edge was worse than anything Clementine has ever seen. And even then, Carl was never as awful as Clementine is right now.
Okay. She accidentally helped him. That proves nothing about anything. And even then, Rufus, the guy Javi can shoot in the back, was heading to The New Frontier anyways, where Javi would have told David about the last place his family was seen alive, and they would have gone back immediately, in a car, quicker than Clem would ever be able to do. So if you think about it, Clem still fucked Javi over.
Wont happen, carley and doug worked because you could have one or the other. They could have a role because there had to be one in each game. The most we could get out of it is a ben type character whos in the background most of the time but maybe has his own scene. Though given 90+% of players killed conrad i'll be surpised if they put much effort into into it.
Im guessing .... Conrad starts flipping out at the new frontier and dies and the new frontier capture clementine if you killed conrad thus making the stories identical again.
How is this making any sense?
That pretty much became pointless since David is convenietly the leader of The New Frontier.
What were you expecting? It's Telltale.
Intentionally or NOT, Clementine is the reason Javier reached his family again.
She. Wanted. A. Helping. Hand. She didn't give him the gun because she suddenly trusted him.
As me and Harpadarpa have said several times now, in the moment, YOU DO NOT KNOW that David is the leader. The choice of accepting the plan or shooting Conrad happens BEFORE the reveal. You literally have no idea about The New Frontier's hierachy or anything.
Well, I was hoping Telltale wouldn't be completely fucking lazy but apparently that's too much to ask for.
Clem often acted out of her self-interested, but not always.
If you decided to surrender at Prescott gates, she shot the guy to help you.
Not mentioning she was at Prescott only because she wanted to warn everybody. She had a car. She could have went anywhere else.
She covered your family's retreat
She dug up a grave for your niece
She told Javier she was with the New Frontier (opposite of self-interest)
And we're only 2 episodes in. Two very short episodes (compared to TWD Season 1).
Overall - she is harsh, but a good person.
I'm talking about character development, he might have some, even though most of the crowd killed him
You don't get points for accidentally doing something good. Hitler's torture chambers, and vivisections actually gave science and medicine huge amounts of information that they wouldn't have otherwise. You don't hear anybody praising Hitler as contributing to medicine.
EDIT: Also, good job ignoring the rest of the points.
That actually made me laugh LOL
That's a somewhat fair point, but she just shot someone who was gonna kill Javi, while he was still surrounded by a bunch of New Frontier dickheads. He could have been gunned down like Francine, but plot protected him. But at least she tried, I'll give her that.
Did she warn them? I stayed with Clem at the end of Episode 1, she only said she'd take me back to Prescott to see Kate and Gabe.
I suppose so, but what else was she going to do? Run away? They were pinned down.
Alright, cool. That doesn't really make up for everything else she did.
She could have told him way earlier, before they were nearly at the fucking place.
You do have a few good points. I will give you that.
Well you really didn't address the whole murder thing. You said granted as if you were going to elaborate, but then moved onto different points. It wasn't reckless, it was murder of the second degree at best. People end up in prison for longer than Clementine's been alive for that. Other than that, Clem not telling Javi tough shit is probably the best thing she's done, but it doesn't come close to exonerating her for murdering a man, and for attempting to extort what's kept Javi and his family alive for so long.
As for Conrad, Conrad is definitely a loose cannon, and not someone I enjoy, but his plan was in the best interest of Kate, who is one of Javi's VIPs at this point. He wants to trade the girl who has ties to this group, and who has murdered men in cold blood in front of Javi, in order to give him a better chance at saving one of the people he loves. That choice wasn't about Conrad, tbh. It was about saving Kate. At least in my eyes. If shooting Conrad would've saved Kate, I would've thought that was the right answer as well.
do you have any response, though?
She doesn't have any personality in Season 2 because as Lee and Javier, you can act a certain way based on dialogue options. But as Clementine, you're still the same bland characterless 11 year old. You can say a few things different, but you're more or less acting the exact same way.
Yeah, that happens if you go with your family instead.
Well, she actually could have done that.
Apparently she didnt think she can trust him. Besides, she could have never told him, she had no reason to actually tell him.
Clementine's not stupid. If she ran off on her own, she'd get fucking shot.
Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, the timing was terrible.
Google defines it as:
n. a non-premeditated killing, resulting from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility. Second degree murder is different from first degree murder, which is a premeditated, intentional killing or results from a vicious crime such as arson, rape or armed robbery.
Tell me forcing a man in a chair and pulling a trigger in his face is NOT "an assault in which the death of the victim was a distinct possibility."
There was quite a lot of stuff separating them and those guys. And she is small. Making a run for it was much safer than facing them (even with Javier). I mean, seriously, i feel like those guys learned how to shoot from stormtroopers.