We're 40% done with the season, and TTG hasn't made it a big point yet, so when are they going to start? They're well overdue.
Selling out Clem is a bad thing to do. Letting Kate, an innocent person, and one of Javi's dearly beloved, die because we had nothing to sell for her health, is worse.
At the end of the day, it's not about her being trustworthy or not. It's about the fact that, at the very least to my Javi, her life just simply isn't worth sacrificing Kate.
Maybe because her story isn't over yet, and you don't even give her a chance at redemption?
Who is Clem to Javier? Well, maybe from start… moreers - a person. And a kid. You talk about how Clem 'killed a person boohoo', and then you ignore the fact selling out Clem is a bad thing to do. She might die and not in a painless way like that guy.
I didn't forget that Clem killed that guy. I took it into the account. I still consider her a trustworthy character, even though i see that she can lose control of the situation.
Even if you dont think she is trustworthy, she is still a person, and a kid, who did nothing to you.
It's like Luke said in S2,
"Broken people get reckless"
And Conrad taking Gabe hostage was def reckless.
The moment he impulsively began shooting that shotgun in the tunnel he put everyone's life at risk b/c there may not have been a way out. I knew right then and there that he was dangerous for the group. And if left alive that that would not be the last time he would put the group in danger.
Conrad took Gabe hostage to blackmail Javi and i wasn't having that.
Yeah. I gave myself up to The New Frontier back at Prescott for Francine, seeing as how this crap was kind of Javier's fault. And then when … morethe twist of the century happens that they plan to straight up kill you, Clementine saves you and on the road Conrad flips his shit and blames you regardless, which definitely pissed me off. Him bringing up Javi's past life and ignoring the fact his niece died, his close friend was shot and his nephew was probably still grieving didn't help.
I could have forgiven that over time as an emotional outburst, fine. But him pulling that stunt in the tunnels against Clem and Gabe did it for me. I just didn't care at that point.
We're 40% done with the season, and TTG hasn't made it a big point yet, so when are they going to start? They're well overdue.
Selling ou… moret Clem is a bad thing to do. Letting Kate, an innocent person, and one of Javi's dearly beloved, die because we had nothing to sell for her health, is worse.
At the end of the day, it's not about her being trustworthy or not. It's about the fact that, at the very least to my Javi, her life just simply isn't worth sacrificing Kate.
And also Clementine can't die.
Yeah, I know it, and I'm the one making the decision. Javi certainly doesn't make that choice.
You're not directly sacrificing Kate, but put yourselves in the shoes of TNF. Someone shows up on your door begging for medicine, to treat wounds you inflicted. Or, someone shows up, asking to trade you a person of interest, in return for medicine. Which Javi are you more likely to give medicine to?
Okay. Cool. But don't act as if giving Clem away is unjustifiable. It's just as reasonable as the alternative.
I know, this season is incredibly short and shitty. But it's 40% done...
You as a player know Clem can't die, but Javier doesn't know that.
Also, you're not sacrificing Kate, you still have a chance to get in, … morewith or without Clem.
"Letting Kate, an innocent person, and one of Javi's dearly beloved, die because we had nothing to sell for her health, is worse."
That's what you think. I think i would never trade a innocent person and put them in danger just to have higher chance of saving someone i love.
'We're 40% done with the season, and TTG hasn't made it a big point yet, so when are they going to start? They're well overdue."
Well, yeah, those two episodes were ridiculously short. Few shitty decisions and that's it.
We really don't know anything New Frontier and what they are capable of.
Also, keep in mind, no matter if you trade with Clem or simply beg - they could simply kill all of you on spot.
Besides that, it's up to a person - are they willing to do something bad in order to save someone they love. You can argue killing Conrad in itself is bad, but it's less bad than trading with a kid. At least in my opinion.
"What if Duck was a cold hearted murderer, and a thief, on top of being annoying?"
She isn't cold hearted, but she is a murderer. She isn't much of a thief either. And is she annoying? No, i wouldn't say so. Gabe and Mariana are much more annoying for me than Clem. She doesn't talk much, and she isn't whining. If anything, you can call her edgy.
Right now, i see Clem like a early version of Jane. And i liked Jane. Well, at least in S2.
Lol yeah, there are freaks on the internet. A lot of freaks on the internet. Higher proportion of freaks on the internet than there are in r… moreeal life, most would say.
Yeah there'd be someone willing to do something so awful, but it's doubtful that they'd come together to make a community as strong as The New Frontier, when one of their policies is that they're okay with raping children. Murder and rape are two entirely different crimes based on different emotions. Just because someone does one does not mean they'll do the other. Ask any random thug or murderer what they think about rape. 90% of them are gonna call it the evilest shit that ever existed. Rapists don't live through prison sentences more than most other types of offenders.
I treat the situation like I'm Javier, and I can only guess what's gonna happen. We either show up with nothing and beg, or we trade them something to save one of the few people left that matters to me. Es… [view original content]
But logically, it would make less sense for TNF to be a child rape supporting culture than for it to not. And we have no reason to believe that it is. So why should we jump to that as a possible outcome? We have no reason to. Just because they're murderous assholes doesn't make them rapists.
They could. Yeah. But we didn't get the choice to sneak in and steal or something, so we might as well increase our chances.
In some ways, killing Conrad is less bad, sure. But in others, it's more bad to let the people you love die. The people you knew before are a finite resource. They're not coming back. Well David, but that's an outlier. You don't meet new ones. She's one of the few people who knows you, and can trust you entirely. You will never find another that knows you as she does. Meanwhile what are you defending by killing Conrad? A murderer, who you owe no favors. A murderer who extorted your van from you. A murderer, who probably murdered for the group that killed your niece before you even met her. Not worth Kate, in my opinion.
She is cold hearted. She murdered a man, and her first instinct was to cover it up. She showed ZERO remorse. If that's not a cold hearted murder, then tell me, what is? I also didn't mean to imply she was annoying. She's not. But I was just saying annoying because Duck was annoying as all hell. But good job avoiding the point in that paragraph.
We really don't know anything New Frontier and what they are capable of.
Also, keep in mind, no matter if you trade with Clem or simply b… moreeg - they could simply kill all of you on spot.
Besides that, it's up to a person - are they willing to do something bad in order to save someone they love. You can argue killing Conrad in itself is bad, but it's less bad than trading with a kid. At least in my opinion.
"What if Duck was a cold hearted murderer, and a thief, on top of being annoying?"
She isn't cold hearted, but she is a murderer. She isn't much of a thief either. And is she annoying? No, i wouldn't say so. Gabe and Mariana are much more annoying for me than Clem. She doesn't talk much, and she isn't whining. If anything, you can call her edgy.
Right now, i see Clem like a early version of Jane. And i liked Jane. Well, at least in S2.
Not saying it's unjustifiable. But your major point here is that Clementine is bad. And then you proceed to do something bad (in my opinion, worse than the other option) towards her. See what my point is?
I'm willing to sacrifice much to save people i care about. But possibly sacrificing other people like that, people that did nothing to me and my family? It's a little over the line for me.
And well, if i was a part of TNF? I wouldn't give two shits about Javier. I would tell them to turn back and go away.
Yeah, I know it, and I'm the one making the decision. Javi certainly doesn't make that choice.
You're not directly sacrificing Kate, but … moreput yourselves in the shoes of TNF. Someone shows up on your door begging for medicine, to treat wounds you inflicted. Or, someone shows up, asking to trade you a person of interest, in return for medicine. Which Javi are you more likely to give medicine to?
Okay. Cool. But don't act as if giving Clem away is unjustifiable. It's just as reasonable as the alternative.
I know, this season is incredibly short and shitty. But it's 40% done...
Yeah, I know it, and I'm the one making the decision. Javi certainly doesn't make that choice.
You're not directly sacrificing Kate, but … moreput yourselves in the shoes of TNF. Someone shows up on your door begging for medicine, to treat wounds you inflicted. Or, someone shows up, asking to trade you a person of interest, in return for medicine. Which Javi are you more likely to give medicine to?
Okay. Cool. But don't act as if giving Clem away is unjustifiable. It's just as reasonable as the alternative.
I know, this season is incredibly short and shitty. But it's 40% done...
My point is that Clem's life is not worth one of my own. She's a bad person, and I'm not about to kill someone to let a bad person go, just to have that come back and bite me in the ass. The bad person going away could save my good person.
"People that did nothing to me and my family", except try to extort the van from you that had kept you alive for years. And the person who asked you to cover up their legit ass murder. I'd say neither of those things are even close to "nothing".
Okay, but I'm not asking what you would do. I'm asking, which of the two Javi's would you be MORE LIKELY to help. And it's a rhetorical question. Obviously you're going to be more generous when there's something in it for you and yours. When it's a trade and not a fucking act of charity.
Not saying it's unjustifiable. But your major point here is that Clementine is bad. And then you proceed to do something bad (in my opinion,… more worse than the other option) towards her. See what my point is?
I'm willing to sacrifice much to save people i care about. But possibly sacrificing other people like that, people that did nothing to me and my family? It's a little over the line for me.
And well, if i was a part of TNF? I wouldn't give two shits about Javier. I would tell them to turn back and go away.
For me it makes a lot of sense for a bunch of deprived men to act that way.
Well, for me it's not that much of trade 'Kate Vs Clementine'. For me it's more of a 'do i kill a man who is threatening my family or risk a life of a person who did nothing to me?'
Second one increases chances of Kate's survival, sure, but it also leaves Conrad alive.
"If that's not a cold hearted murder, then tell me, what is?"
For me cold hearted murder is intentionally killing someone who did nothing to you. What Clem did wasn't intentional and the man did something to her.
"But I was just saying annoying because Duck was annoying as all hell. But good job avoiding the point in that paragraph."
I never tried to avoid any of your points. I simply thought you're describing Clem as annoying, not Duck.
Unless you mean i never answered that whole Lee/Duck thing. Well, yeah, in that situation i would kill Duck to save Clem. But point is - i don't consider Clem to be that much of a horrible person.
But logically, it would make less sense for TNF to be a child rape supporting culture than for it to not. And we have no reason to believe t… morehat it is. So why should we jump to that as a possible outcome? We have no reason to. Just because they're murderous assholes doesn't make them rapists.
They could. Yeah. But we didn't get the choice to sneak in and steal or something, so we might as well increase our chances.
In some ways, killing Conrad is less bad, sure. But in others, it's more bad to let the people you love die. The people you knew before are a finite resource. They're not coming back. Well David, but that's an outlier. You don't meet new ones. She's one of the few people who knows you, and can trust you entirely. You will never find another that knows you as she does. Meanwhile what are you defending by killing Conrad? A murderer, who you owe no favors. A murderer who extorted your van from you. A murderer, who probably murder… [view original content]
Also, Clem is by no means a danger to the group. If anything, she is a danger to people outside the group.
She traded van for a help. That's how i see it.
And she did ask you to cover her murder. But that situation didnt involve your family in anyway, nor put you in danger. So its really irrelevant.
Yeah, they are more likely to help Javi when he has something to trade. I understand that. But i'm not willing to trade a life of someone who did nothing to my family. Not even that, but she helped you few times.
My point is that Clem's life is not worth one of my own. She's a bad person, and I'm not about to kill someone to let a bad person go, just … moreto have that come back and bite me in the ass. The bad person going away could save my good person.
"People that did nothing to me and my family", except try to extort the van from you that had kept you alive for years. And the person who asked you to cover up their legit ass murder. I'd say neither of those things are even close to "nothing".
Okay, but I'm not asking what you would do. I'm asking, which of the two Javi's would you be MORE LIKELY to help. And it's a rhetorical question. Obviously you're going to be more generous when there's something in it for you and yours. When it's a trade and not a fucking act of charity.
She's not really the type to kill people in her group, doesn't mean she's a good person, and it definitely doesn't mean she isn't worth trading for Kate's life.
That "trade" was hardly a trade at all. What was Javi going to say? No? She took that van from him, and there was nothing Javi could do about it. Clem just did it in a way that made him feel somewhat obligated to defend Clem on the journey, and not shoot her when she steals his van.
It did put you in danger. What if you were found to be lying? What if Conrad spoke up and called you out on your BS? That would certainly put Kate/Mari/Gabe at risk. And even if it didn't put you in danger, it was an awful thing to do in the first place, that it needed covering up.
Also, Clem is by no means a danger to the group. If anything, she is a danger to people outside the group.
She traded van for a help. Tha… moret's how i see it.
And she did ask you to cover her murder. But that situation didnt involve your family in anyway, nor put you in danger. So its really irrelevant.
Yeah, they are more likely to help Javi when he has something to trade. I understand that. But i'm not willing to trade a life of someone who did nothing to my family. Not even that, but she helped you few times.
We also have no reason to believe that it is not.
For me it makes a lot of sense for a bunch of deprived men to act that way.
Well, fo… morer me it's not that much of trade 'Kate Vs Clementine'. For me it's more of a 'do i kill a man who is threatening my family or risk a life of a person who did nothing to me?'
Second one increases chances of Kate's survival, sure, but it also leaves Conrad alive.
"If that's not a cold hearted murder, then tell me, what is?"
For me cold hearted murder is intentionally killing someone who did nothing to you. What Clem did wasn't intentional and the man did something to her.
"But I was just saying annoying because Duck was annoying as all hell. But good job avoiding the point in that paragraph."
I never tried to avoid any of your points. I simply thought you're describing Clem as annoying, not Duck.
Unless you mean i never answered that whole Lee/Duck thing. Well, yeah, in that situation i wo… [view original content]
The reason to believe it's not, is that it is hugely unlikely to gather a group of child rapists as large as TNF has proven to be.
But Clem was one of them. They're not all "deprived men". Clem was TNF, remember?
You're simplifying the choice to it's most immediate consequences. That's not a "for me" type deal. That's ignoring the rest of what happens because of that choice. It's not just about killing Conrad, it's also about letting a murderer go free, or getting a higher chance of saving Kate.
It's debatable whether or not Eli did anything actually awful. Sure, he pulled a knife, but when you're a merchant in the apocalypse, you're going to find that a lot of people are going to try to fuck you over and get their stuff back. We have no idea whether Eli was a scumbag or not. So basically, she unintentionally (but still in an unreasonable and murderous fashion) killed a man who did nothing but defend his business.
Conrad being alive does suck, but he only posed a threat to Javi and his family when it looked like Javi was going to defend Clem. So I don't think he's going to be a threat to Javi's family in the future.
But she did the things I described Duck as doing. And even if she didn't, even if she is somehow exempt from the blatant murder she committed, take the cold hearted murderer Duck out of the equation. Let Duck die and save Clementine, or let Clementine die, and leave Duck alone. What do you do?
We also have no reason to believe that it is not.
For me it makes a lot of sense for a bunch of deprived men to act that way.
Well, fo… morer me it's not that much of trade 'Kate Vs Clementine'. For me it's more of a 'do i kill a man who is threatening my family or risk a life of a person who did nothing to me?'
Second one increases chances of Kate's survival, sure, but it also leaves Conrad alive.
"If that's not a cold hearted murder, then tell me, what is?"
For me cold hearted murder is intentionally killing someone who did nothing to you. What Clem did wasn't intentional and the man did something to her.
"But I was just saying annoying because Duck was annoying as all hell. But good job avoiding the point in that paragraph."
I never tried to avoid any of your points. I simply thought you're describing Clem as annoying, not Duck.
Unless you mean i never answered that whole Lee/Duck thing. Well, yeah, in that situation i wo… [view original content]
The reason to believe it's not, is that it is hugely unlikely to gather a group of child rapists as large as TNF has proven to be.
True, true. But that doesn't mean they won't stop others from doing that ,even if they are not child rapists themselves.
But Clem was one of them. They're not all "deprived men". Clem was TNF, remember?
Obviously not every one of them is depraved. But from what Javier saw and heard, quite a lot of them are total dickheads.
You're simplifying the choice to it's most immediate consequences. That's not a "for me" type deal. That's ignoring the rest of what happens because of that choice. It's not just about killing Conrad, it's also about letting a murderer go free, or getting a higher chance of saving Kate.
Yeah, i'm simplifying it. I have more reasons to kill Conrad than to accept his plan.
It's debatable whether or not Eli did anything actually awful. Sure, he pulled a knife, but when you're a merchant in the apocalypse, you're going to find that a lot of people are going to try to fuck you over and get their stuff back. We have no idea whether Eli was a scumbag or not. So basically, she unintentionally (but still in an unreasonable and murderous fashion) killed a man who did nothing but defend his business.
Can't disagree, but just as Eli had his reasons to be aggressive, so Clem had her reasons to be aggressive. Only difference is that Eli didn't manage to actually kill Javier. He surely tried, though.
Conrad being alive does suck, but he only posed a threat to Javi and his family when it looked like Javi was going to defend Clem. So I don't think he's going to be a threat to Javi's family in the future.
Maybe. Maybe not. He already threaten my family, so he could do it again. So in that situation, Javier has to think not only about dying Kate but also Gabe who is fine at the moment. Agreeing to his plan can possibly help Kate, killing him can possibly help Gabe.
But she did the things I described Duck as doing. And even if she didn't, even if she is somehow exempt from the blatant murder she committed, take the cold hearted murderer Duck out of the equation. Let Duck die and save Clementine, or let Clementine die, and leave Duck alone. What do you do?
Lee cared about Clem more, so he would save Clem.
Though, it's not the best comparison, because the situation we're talking about is save x or save y. There is a lot more depth to them.
Overall, both choices are reasonable and one can find many reasons to why choose that but not the other option. I think it would be smart if we stopped arguing/discussing this, because we really won't get anywhere. It all boils down to subjective perception and values.
I don't think you are right, but nonetheless, i see where are you coming from and i respect your opinion.
The reason to believe it's not, is that it is hugely unlikely to gather a group of child rapists as large as TNF has proven to be.
But Cl… moreem was one of them. They're not all "deprived men". Clem was TNF, remember?
You're simplifying the choice to it's most immediate consequences. That's not a "for me" type deal. That's ignoring the rest of what happens because of that choice. It's not just about killing Conrad, it's also about letting a murderer go free, or getting a higher chance of saving Kate.
It's debatable whether or not Eli did anything actually awful. Sure, he pulled a knife, but when you're a merchant in the apocalypse, you're going to find that a lot of people are going to try to fuck you over and get their stuff back. We have no idea whether Eli was a scumbag or not. So basically, she unintentionally (but still in an unreasonable and murderous fashion) killed a man who did nothing but defend his business.
Conrad being ali… [view original content]
A culture that doesn't approve of child rape is one that DOES NOT approve of child rape. People aren't gonna look the other way on that sort of thing, unless forceably silenced, and then we're back at the whole "that's not fucking likely" bit.
Total dickheads =/= rapists How many times will I have to say this one?
Okay. Sure. That's your opinion.
Still, two wrongs don't make a right. Clementine was in no danger when she murdered Eli. Did Lee ever indeterminately kill someone who was not a threat to him or his people?
But Conrad was offering a deal. if I accepted it, obviously he lets Gabe go. No intelligent human being goes, "oh you agree with me? Well hey, have a dead nephew. Bullet's on the house." Conrad's a lot of things, but he's not a fucking savage.
Javier cares about Kate more, so he would save Kate.
Okay, let's pretend that we're in the exact same situation we are now, but with Clementine dying, and Duck as the former Frontiersman, or whatever. Would you let Clem die, just because you didn't want to hand Duck over?
And I respect yours. Still interesting to talk about, though.
The reason to believe it's not, is that it is hugely unlikely to gather a group of child rapists as large as TNF has proven to be.
T… morerue, true. But that doesn't mean they won't stop others from doing that ,even if they are not child rapists themselves.
But Clem was one of them. They're not all "deprived men". Clem was TNF, remember?
Obviously not every one of them is depraved. But from what Javier saw and heard, quite a lot of them are total dickheads.
You're simplifying the choice to it's most immediate consequences. That's not a "for me" type deal. That's ignoring the rest of what happens because of that choice. It's not just about killing Conrad, it's also about letting a murderer go free, or getting a higher chance of saving Kate.
Yeah, i'm simplifying it. I have more reasons to kill Conrad than to accept his plan.
It's debatable whether or not Eli did anything actually awful. Sure, he pulled a kni… [view original content]
My bad, granted, what she did was reckless, but Javier was there almost the entire time. It was accidental, that doesn't excuse her actions but it doesn't make them intentional, given his actions endangered both our lives, indirectly by ripping off people who stop by to barter or directly when he lunges at them with a knife, then slices you across the face before attempting to drive said knife into your face. The entire time, while the girl with the gun using your bullets is standing right there. Almost like he was more pissed that she would have the audacity to threaten him and call his bluff than he was afraid of his bullets actually working. Top it off with Conrad being pissed about the shooting during a herd instead of the dead guy, and Tripps outright dismissal of the guy as a POS, it seems likely they knew what he was doing and tolerated his presence because of the trade he opened up. There was absolutely no reason to take sympathy on him as the player.
I also had no reason to think the people who would open fire and kill a little girl because she's standing in the open would just do the same to Clementine, or us for that matter. Taking her hostage just makes us responsible for her murder as well. Knowing she's a former member in no way equates to the assumption they're going to deal because we show up with her, we've seen how they deal with people multiple times. This whole thing very well could have been a suicide mission, but it was the only option left. Willingly placing someone, a kid especially, into danger was not the only option. Especially when they've gone beyond what they've had to helping you and putting their life in danger. But that's just a question of morals, and not having something like that on my conscience.
Well you really didn't address the whole murder thing. You said granted as if you were going to elaborate, but then moved onto different poi… morents. It wasn't reckless, it was murder of the second degree at best. People end up in prison for longer than Clementine's been alive for that. Other than that, Clem not telling Javi tough shit is probably the best thing she's done, but it doesn't come close to exonerating her for murdering a man, and for attempting to extort what's kept Javi and his family alive for so long.
As for Conrad, Conrad is definitely a loose cannon, and not someone I enjoy, but his plan was in the best interest of Kate, who is one of Javi's VIPs at this point. He wants to trade the girl who has ties to this group, and who has murdered men in cold blood in front of Javi, in order to give him a better chance at saving one of the people he loves. That choice wasn't about Conrad, tbh. It was about saving Kate. At least in my eyes… [view original content]
"Okay, let's pretend that we're in the exact same situation we are now, but with Clementine dying, and Duck as the former Frontiersman, or whatever. Would you let Clem die, just because you didn't want to hand Duck over?"
A culture that doesn't approve of child rape is one that DOES NOT approve of child rape. People aren't gonna look the other way on that sort… more of thing, unless forceably silenced, and then we're back at the whole "that's not fucking likely" bit.
Total dickheads =/= rapists How many times will I have to say this one?
Okay. Sure. That's your opinion.
Still, two wrongs don't make a right. Clementine was in no danger when she murdered Eli. Did Lee ever indeterminately kill someone who was not a threat to him or his people?
But Conrad was offering a deal. if I accepted it, obviously he lets Gabe go. No intelligent human being goes, "oh you agree with me? Well hey, have a dead nephew. Bullet's on the house." Conrad's a lot of things, but he's not a fucking savage.
Javier cares about Kate more, so he would save Kate.
Okay, let's pretend that we're in the exact same situation we are now, but with Clementine dying, and Duck as the form… [view original content]
"Okay, let's pretend that we're in the exact same situation we are now, but with Clementine dying, and Duck as the former Frontiersman, or whatever. Would you let Clem die, just because you didn't want to hand Duck over?"
Yes.
Would Lee?
Something tells me Lee wouldn't. That girl's in his care, and if anybody gets between her and him, they're gonna wind up dead.
But again, I guess we're down to opinion and speculation.
Oh yeah I like her and all but I just don't feel that much for her (compared to a lot of people here anyway). I mostly deal with Clem as I d… moreo every other character. I mostly look out for what I believe to be the best choice (in fact I decided to stay silent at first that way I wasn't saying I agreed but also not saying I disagreed with the plan but that leads to a non-canon death so I had to choose the second best option).
It doesn't make what she did intentional, but it still makes it murder. Stone hearted murder, too, once Clem responds with, "COVER THIS UP JAVI." Rather than "Oh my God I killed him"
We also don't know if Eli actually ripped them off or not. For all we know, there were 3 bad bullets in the box. Worth noting. Also, just because he was hostile before he was shoved into the chair, does not excuse his murder.
The reason to take sympathy on Eli is that he was murdered. By Clementine. For no good reason. And then Clementine expected you, a total stranger, to cover it up. That's reason enough.
That was before you knew they were even there. Having learned what we have about TNF, which, granted, isn't much, but we can safely assume that it would be much more difficult to accrue a massive group of child rapists who *also *let children into their ranks, than it would be to gather a group of thieves and murderers. And unless there's anything saying otherwise, that's an unreasonable connection to make. That's like saying that, "Because we never saw Vernon's group address the stranger, we can only assume that he was in kahoots with the stranger. He was setting us up the whole time". You simply have no evidence.
The little girl also murdered in front of me, and extorted a van from me. I owed nothing to Clementine, and think she's kind of a shitty person. Why would I *not *trade her life for Kate's?
Even then, you can't just ignore Clem's impervious plot armor. Nothing too bad is gonna happen to her that wouldn't have happened anyways. So why not give yourself the advantage?
My bad, granted, what she did was reckless, but Javier was there almost the entire time. It was accidental, that doesn't excuse her actions … morebut it doesn't make them intentional, given his actions endangered both our lives, indirectly by ripping off people who stop by to barter or directly when he lunges at them with a knife, then slices you across the face before attempting to drive said knife into your face. The entire time, while the girl with the gun using your bullets is standing right there. Almost like he was more pissed that she would have the audacity to threaten him and call his bluff than he was afraid of his bullets actually working. Top it off with Conrad being pissed about the shooting during a herd instead of the dead guy, and Tripps outright dismissal of the guy as a POS, it seems likely they knew what he was doing and tolerated his presence because of the trade he opened up. There was absolutely no reason to take sympathy on h… [view original content]
Well I don't know about that. Look at all the other things he indeterminately does to protect Clementine. He lets Kenny get away with murder. He leaves multiple people to die. He sticks with the motor inn group, even once it starts falling apart. I don't think Lee would even look at it as a choice. He would just have to protect Clementine.
Well, everyone of us is practically Lee, because Lee was pretty much a blank slate.
So yeah, my Lee wouldn't sell Duck to the bandits, even if Clem would die because of that.
Well I don't know about that. Look at all the other things he indeterminately does to protect Clementine. He lets Kenny get away with murder… more. He leaves multiple people to die. He sticks with the motor inn group, even once it starts falling apart. I don't think Lee would even look at it as a choice. He would just have to protect Clementine.
Yes, but he had good reasons to do all of what he did, besides simply protecting Clementine.
Wait, scrap that off. In that situation it wouldn't even be protecting. It would be trading with life of someone else for Clem's life.
I'll have to rewatch the scene, was she even looking at him when she fired/gun went off? She clearly panicked and asked Javier to cover for him, because he was there and attacked by him.
Again, this is the guy who's been accused of selling faulty bullets, and he literally pulls a knife charges a girl holding a gun on him, then struggles with Javier while she's still holding the gun on him. He's either an idiot or didn't expect to be shot. Tripp wasn't even pissed that he was dead, after he got done being pissed about firing a weapon with a herd outside and later makes a dismissive remark about Eli. Conrad was pissed someone started trouble in his bar.
All that aside, Javier has no idea how far he's been driven because he was unconscious. She immediately knows where it is when he mentions it, and offers to extort, I guess, him in exchange for taking him back to his family. He knows that she can lead him there, she's made a deal to do so, and he has had minimal interactions with the people in Prescott. Why would I, as Javier, risk them having no idea where I'm talking about instead of the girl who's clearly well travelled? Why would I, as a fan of hers, care that she has plot armor and just rat her out? If your choices make no difference on the outcome of the game, then all the change is how you experience it. So why make a choice because it has no impact on the outcome of the game when I can make one favorably for a favorite character.
I'm not saying you don't have to trade her life for Kate's, and I'm not sure where I called them a bunch of child rapists. I know for a fact a good deal of them have been shown to be murderers, her fear of them makes me thing if she went back it would be bad for her.
Again, this is a moral choice. I'm just not willing to barter a little girls life. I'm not willing to barter Clems life. If I have to justify it for Javier, I'm not bartering a little girls life who's helped me numerous times, saved my life when they wanted to execute me outside Prescott, or betraying the trust of a clearly damaged and lonely girl who's opening up to me. Especially not to the people who actively targeted and murdered my niece less than a day ago. I'd like to think Javier and Kate, as a mother, wouldn't be able to do that seeing what they've seen.
It doesn't make what she did intentional, but it still makes it murder. Stone hearted murder, too, once Clem responds with, "COVER THIS UP J… moreAVI." Rather than "Oh my God I killed him"
We also don't know if Eli actually ripped them off or not. For all we know, there were 3 bad bullets in the box. Worth noting. Also, just because he was hostile before he was shoved into the chair, does not excuse his murder.
The reason to take sympathy on Eli is that he was murdered. By Clementine. For no good reason. And then Clementine expected you, a total stranger, to cover it up. That's reason enough.
That was before you knew they were even there. Having learned what we have about TNF, which, granted, isn't much, but we can safely assume that it would be much more difficult to accrue a massive group of child rapists who *also *let children into their ranks, than it would be to gather a group of thieves and murderers. And unless there's anything say… [view original content]
That's fair enough, this is really the only TT game I played, the first season left a pretty big impact on me in the first episode, so she's a huge part of the reason I'm with the series. I'm not really sure how aware Kate is of her surroundings by the time they find her in the car, but I am curious if she's going to have any reaction next episode to Javier taking the girl who reunited them hostage and turning them over to the people who actually took the time to line up a killshot on her adoptive daughter, who was only a few years younger than Clem.
Even outside of my choices, Javier still comes off as a decent, loyal, protective guy, part of me doesn't want to play him differently. That's why I surrendered rather than risk full assault on my family and the people who helped me during the Prescott confrontation. It is difficult separating myself from previous seasons attachments though lol
Oh yeah I like her and all but I just don't feel that much for her (compared to a lot of people here anyway). I mostly deal with Clem as I d… moreo every other character. I mostly look out for what I believe to be the best choice (in fact I decided to stay silent at first that way I wasn't saying I agreed but also not saying I disagreed with the plan but that leads to a non-canon death so I had to choose the second best option).
That is true and if people shot Conrad for legitimate reasons such as what you explained thats fine. It's the people that just blindly play the game to solely appease Clementine i think is wrong.
Shooting him doesn't necessarily mean we have totally biased opinions. Many players, including myself, only took that option because he seem… moreed highly unstable and dangerous, in other words: a ticking time bomb. I was actually onboard with the plan until he took Gabe hostage and menaced to kill him, which isn't just an empty threat since he does it if you let the timer run out, but then I bailed and shot him. No way I'm agreeing with an overly agressive dude with an unhealthy thirst for revenge who held my innocent nephew at gunpoint.
That is true and if people shot Conrad for legitimate reasons such as what you explained thats fine. It's the people that just blindly play the game to solely appease Clementine i think is wrong.
He was freaking out when Clem pulled the trigger. He was just beaten in a physical fight, and forced back into the chair. What was he going to do? Jump up and run? Scream? Both of those make Clem more likely to instinctually shoot him.
Anyways, Clem said it was nearby, and it's perfectly reasonable to assume that people in Prescott know what's in their general vicinity. And if you're still a fan of Clem's after she murdered someone, that's your prerogative. I stopped being a fan of Clem once she murdered a helpless man.
I think I actually brought the child rapists thing in from another argument. Look at how ridiculous this thread is. I'm pretty sure I brought that in, confused as to which one of you I was arguing. That's probably my bad. I got 20 notifications in 15 minutes. I'm a little flustered at the moment. Sorry about that.
Anyways, if you're not willing to barter with Clem's life to save Kate's that's your morals. Personally, I believe Kate's life is more valuable to Javi, and so I acted accordingly. Especially considering all of the shit that Clem did.
But again, that's me. Nobody's right or wrong here. I just got into this thread because I really disliked how people were attacking TinyCarlos' opinion.
I'll have to rewatch the scene, was she even looking at him when she fired/gun went off? She clearly panicked and asked Javier to cover for … morehim, because he was there and attacked by him.
Again, this is the guy who's been accused of selling faulty bullets, and he literally pulls a knife charges a girl holding a gun on him, then struggles with Javier while she's still holding the gun on him. He's either an idiot or didn't expect to be shot. Tripp wasn't even pissed that he was dead, after he got done being pissed about firing a weapon with a herd outside and later makes a dismissive remark about Eli. Conrad was pissed someone started trouble in his bar.
All that aside, Javier has no idea how far he's been driven because he was unconscious. She immediately knows where it is when he mentions it, and offers to extort, I guess, him in exchange for taking him back to his family. He knows that she can lead him there, she's made a deal to do so,… [view original content]
Fair enough, I still don't believe she had intent so yea, I'm still a fan of hers. She was rash and reckless, but convinced the bullets wouldn't work and in shock at what happened.
But yea, these things do get out of hand, I mean I'll defend my reasoning and views, I've done it in other threads but even if I disagree with a certain choice I'm not gonna tell someone they're wrong, do it my way. It's everyone's own choice to make, you had your reasons for Conrad and I'm not gonna disrespect them. I just hate how these threads seem to devolve into "You're wrong, you only did it for Clem" because some people say they'll always side with her, and a war breaks out lol. Which sucks, because there's generally good conversation going on in the forums and its nice having other viewpoints so I can take a closer look at my own.
He was freaking out when Clem pulled the trigger. He was just beaten in a physical fight, and forced back into the chair. What was he going … moreto do? Jump up and run? Scream? Both of those make Clem more likely to instinctually shoot him.
Anyways, Clem said it was nearby, and it's perfectly reasonable to assume that people in Prescott know what's in their general vicinity. And if you're still a fan of Clem's after she murdered someone, that's your prerogative. I stopped being a fan of Clem once she murdered a helpless man.
I think I actually brought the child rapists thing in from another argument. Look at how ridiculous this thread is. I'm pretty sure I brought that in, confused as to which one of you I was arguing. That's probably my bad. I got 20 notifications in 15 minutes. I'm a little flustered at the moment. Sorry about that.
Anyways, if you're not willing to barter with Clem's life to save Kate's that's your morals. Personally, … [view original content]
Exactly. The way I refused to betray Clementine for his suggestion and then he resorts to taking his nephew hostage afterwards didn't sit well with me at all. Someone that would take one hostage than you refuse to comply and then take another person that you care more for is nothing but a piece of shit.
Especially when I already gave myself up for Francine by coming out of the gate. Clementine was the one that got me out of that jam when that Badger fuck decided he wanted to just kill Javier and Francine off.
I think my trust for Clementine and my disdain for Conrad grew from those events.
I didn't feel bad shooting Conrad. I had sympathy for him b/c of his fragile state due to Francine's death, but once he took Gabe hostage i … moresaid, "that's it. He's not going to threaten my family to get what he wants. I don't care how emotionally scarred he may right now".
Also, i thought that if i didn't kill him he might somehow kill Gabe in the process anyway.
Eh they payed to play it the way they want, if they prefer one playstyle over the other they have every right to. Their decisions don't affect you personally, try to let it go, upsetting yourself over what others do in their freetime is never healthy.
That is true and if people shot Conrad for legitimate reasons such as what you explained thats fine. It's the people that just blindly play the game to solely appease Clementine i think is wrong.
Comments
We're 40% done with the season, and TTG hasn't made it a big point yet, so when are they going to start? They're well overdue.
Selling out Clem is a bad thing to do. Letting Kate, an innocent person, and one of Javi's dearly beloved, die because we had nothing to sell for her health, is worse.
At the end of the day, it's not about her being trustworthy or not. It's about the fact that, at the very least to my Javi, her life just simply isn't worth sacrificing Kate.
And also Clementine can't die.
It's like Luke said in S2,
"Broken people get reckless"
And Conrad taking Gabe hostage was def reckless.
The moment he impulsively began shooting that shotgun in the tunnel he put everyone's life at risk b/c there may not have been a way out. I knew right then and there that he was dangerous for the group. And if left alive that that would not be the last time he would put the group in danger.
Conrad took Gabe hostage to blackmail Javi and i wasn't having that.
You as a player know Clem can't die, but Javier doesn't know that.
Also, you're not sacrificing Kate, you still have a chance to get in, with or without Clem.
"Letting Kate, an innocent person, and one of Javi's dearly beloved, die because we had nothing to sell for her health, is worse."
That's what you think. I think i would never trade a innocent person and put them in danger just to have higher chance of saving someone i love.
'We're 40% done with the season, and TTG hasn't made it a big point yet, so when are they going to start? They're well overdue."
Well, yeah, those two episodes were ridiculously short. Few shitty decisions and that's it.
Yeah, I know it, and I'm the one making the decision. Javi certainly doesn't make that choice.
You're not directly sacrificing Kate, but put yourselves in the shoes of TNF. Someone shows up on your door begging for medicine, to treat wounds you inflicted. Or, someone shows up, asking to trade you a person of interest, in return for medicine. Which Javi are you more likely to give medicine to?
Okay. Cool. But don't act as if giving Clem away is unjustifiable. It's just as reasonable as the alternative.
I know, this season is incredibly short and shitty. But it's 40% done...
We really don't know anything New Frontier and what they are capable of.
Also, keep in mind, no matter if you trade with Clem or simply beg - they could simply kill all of you on spot.
Besides that, it's up to a person - are they willing to do something bad in order to save someone they love. You can argue killing Conrad in itself is bad, but it's less bad than trading with a kid. At least in my opinion.
"What if Duck was a cold hearted murderer, and a thief, on top of being annoying?"
She isn't cold hearted, but she is a murderer. She isn't much of a thief either. And is she annoying? No, i wouldn't say so. Gabe and Mariana are much more annoying for me than Clem. She doesn't talk much, and she isn't whining. If anything, you can call her edgy.
Right now, i see Clem like a early version of Jane. And i liked Jane. Well, at least in S2.
But logically, it would make less sense for TNF to be a child rape supporting culture than for it to not. And we have no reason to believe that it is. So why should we jump to that as a possible outcome? We have no reason to. Just because they're murderous assholes doesn't make them rapists.
They could. Yeah. But we didn't get the choice to sneak in and steal or something, so we might as well increase our chances.
In some ways, killing Conrad is less bad, sure. But in others, it's more bad to let the people you love die. The people you knew before are a finite resource. They're not coming back. Well David, but that's an outlier. You don't meet new ones. She's one of the few people who knows you, and can trust you entirely. You will never find another that knows you as she does. Meanwhile what are you defending by killing Conrad? A murderer, who you owe no favors. A murderer who extorted your van from you. A murderer, who probably murdered for the group that killed your niece before you even met her. Not worth Kate, in my opinion.
She is cold hearted. She murdered a man, and her first instinct was to cover it up. She showed ZERO remorse. If that's not a cold hearted murder, then tell me, what is? I also didn't mean to imply she was annoying. She's not. But I was just saying annoying because Duck was annoying as all hell. But good job avoiding the point in that paragraph.
Not saying it's unjustifiable. But your major point here is that Clementine is bad. And then you proceed to do something bad (in my opinion, worse than the other option) towards her. See what my point is?
I'm willing to sacrifice much to save people i care about. But possibly sacrificing other people like that, people that did nothing to me and my family? It's a little over the line for me.
And well, if i was a part of TNF? I wouldn't give two shits about Javier. I would tell them to turn back and go away.
Double post ffs
RIP
My point is that Clem's life is not worth one of my own. She's a bad person, and I'm not about to kill someone to let a bad person go, just to have that come back and bite me in the ass. The bad person going away could save my good person.
"People that did nothing to me and my family", except try to extort the van from you that had kept you alive for years. And the person who asked you to cover up their legit ass murder. I'd say neither of those things are even close to "nothing".
Okay, but I'm not asking what you would do. I'm asking, which of the two Javi's would you be MORE LIKELY to help. And it's a rhetorical question. Obviously you're going to be more generous when there's something in it for you and yours. When it's a trade and not a fucking act of charity.
We also have no reason to believe that it is not.
For me it makes a lot of sense for a bunch of deprived men to act that way.
Well, for me it's not that much of trade 'Kate Vs Clementine'. For me it's more of a 'do i kill a man who is threatening my family or risk a life of a person who did nothing to me?'
Second one increases chances of Kate's survival, sure, but it also leaves Conrad alive.
"If that's not a cold hearted murder, then tell me, what is?"
For me cold hearted murder is intentionally killing someone who did nothing to you. What Clem did wasn't intentional and the man did something to her.
"But I was just saying annoying because Duck was annoying as all hell. But good job avoiding the point in that paragraph."
I never tried to avoid any of your points. I simply thought you're describing Clem as annoying, not Duck.
Unless you mean i never answered that whole Lee/Duck thing. Well, yeah, in that situation i would kill Duck to save Clem. But point is - i don't consider Clem to be that much of a horrible person.
Also, Clem is by no means a danger to the group. If anything, she is a danger to people outside the group.
She traded van for a help. That's how i see it.
And she did ask you to cover her murder. But that situation didnt involve your family in anyway, nor put you in danger. So its really irrelevant.
Yeah, they are more likely to help Javi when he has something to trade. I understand that. But i'm not willing to trade a life of someone who did nothing to my family. Not even that, but she helped you few times.
She's not really the type to kill people in her group, doesn't mean she's a good person, and it definitely doesn't mean she isn't worth trading for Kate's life.
That "trade" was hardly a trade at all. What was Javi going to say? No? She took that van from him, and there was nothing Javi could do about it. Clem just did it in a way that made him feel somewhat obligated to defend Clem on the journey, and not shoot her when she steals his van.
It did put you in danger. What if you were found to be lying? What if Conrad spoke up and called you out on your BS? That would certainly put Kate/Mari/Gabe at risk. And even if it didn't put you in danger, it was an awful thing to do in the first place, that it needed covering up.
Didn't read.
The reason to believe it's not, is that it is hugely unlikely to gather a group of child rapists as large as TNF has proven to be.
But Clem was one of them. They're not all "deprived men". Clem was TNF, remember?
You're simplifying the choice to it's most immediate consequences. That's not a "for me" type deal. That's ignoring the rest of what happens because of that choice. It's not just about killing Conrad, it's also about letting a murderer go free, or getting a higher chance of saving Kate.
It's debatable whether or not Eli did anything actually awful. Sure, he pulled a knife, but when you're a merchant in the apocalypse, you're going to find that a lot of people are going to try to fuck you over and get their stuff back. We have no idea whether Eli was a scumbag or not. So basically, she unintentionally (but still in an unreasonable and murderous fashion) killed a man who did nothing but defend his business.
Conrad being alive does suck, but he only posed a threat to Javi and his family when it looked like Javi was going to defend Clem. So I don't think he's going to be a threat to Javi's family in the future.
But she did the things I described Duck as doing. And even if she didn't, even if she is somehow exempt from the blatant murder she committed, take the cold hearted murderer Duck out of the equation. Let Duck die and save Clementine, or let Clementine die, and leave Duck alone. What do you do?
True, true. But that doesn't mean they won't stop others from doing that ,even if they are not child rapists themselves.
Obviously not every one of them is depraved. But from what Javier saw and heard, quite a lot of them are total dickheads.
Yeah, i'm simplifying it. I have more reasons to kill Conrad than to accept his plan.
Can't disagree, but just as Eli had his reasons to be aggressive, so Clem had her reasons to be aggressive. Only difference is that Eli didn't manage to actually kill Javier. He surely tried, though.
Maybe. Maybe not. He already threaten my family, so he could do it again. So in that situation, Javier has to think not only about dying Kate but also Gabe who is fine at the moment. Agreeing to his plan can possibly help Kate, killing him can possibly help Gabe.
Lee cared about Clem more, so he would save Clem.
Though, it's not the best comparison, because the situation we're talking about is save x or save y. There is a lot more depth to them.
Overall, both choices are reasonable and one can find many reasons to why choose that but not the other option. I think it would be smart if we stopped arguing/discussing this, because we really won't get anywhere. It all boils down to subjective perception and values.
I don't think you are right, but nonetheless, i see where are you coming from and i respect your opinion.
Nah. Made same decision but I wouldn't call it "death look". The real death look Clem gave me when I failed qte.
A culture that doesn't approve of child rape is one that DOES NOT approve of child rape. People aren't gonna look the other way on that sort of thing, unless forceably silenced, and then we're back at the whole "that's not fucking likely" bit.
Total dickheads =/= rapists How many times will I have to say this one?
Okay. Sure. That's your opinion.
Still, two wrongs don't make a right. Clementine was in no danger when she murdered Eli. Did Lee ever indeterminately kill someone who was not a threat to him or his people?
But Conrad was offering a deal. if I accepted it, obviously he lets Gabe go. No intelligent human being goes, "oh you agree with me? Well hey, have a dead nephew. Bullet's on the house." Conrad's a lot of things, but he's not a fucking savage.
Javier cares about Kate more, so he would save Kate.
Okay, let's pretend that we're in the exact same situation we are now, but with Clementine dying, and Duck as the former Frontiersman, or whatever. Would you let Clem die, just because you didn't want to hand Duck over?
And I respect yours. Still interesting to talk about, though.
My bad, granted, what she did was reckless, but Javier was there almost the entire time. It was accidental, that doesn't excuse her actions but it doesn't make them intentional, given his actions endangered both our lives, indirectly by ripping off people who stop by to barter or directly when he lunges at them with a knife, then slices you across the face before attempting to drive said knife into your face. The entire time, while the girl with the gun using your bullets is standing right there. Almost like he was more pissed that she would have the audacity to threaten him and call his bluff than he was afraid of his bullets actually working. Top it off with Conrad being pissed about the shooting during a herd instead of the dead guy, and Tripps outright dismissal of the guy as a POS, it seems likely they knew what he was doing and tolerated his presence because of the trade he opened up. There was absolutely no reason to take sympathy on him as the player.
I also had no reason to think the people who would open fire and kill a little girl because she's standing in the open would just do the same to Clementine, or us for that matter. Taking her hostage just makes us responsible for her murder as well. Knowing she's a former member in no way equates to the assumption they're going to deal because we show up with her, we've seen how they deal with people multiple times. This whole thing very well could have been a suicide mission, but it was the only option left. Willingly placing someone, a kid especially, into danger was not the only option. Especially when they've gone beyond what they've had to helping you and putting their life in danger. But that's just a question of morals, and not having something like that on my conscience.
"Okay, let's pretend that we're in the exact same situation we are now, but with Clementine dying, and Duck as the former Frontiersman, or whatever. Would you let Clem die, just because you didn't want to hand Duck over?"
Yes.
Would Lee?
Something tells me Lee wouldn't. That girl's in his care, and if anybody gets between her and him, they're gonna wind up dead.
But again, I guess we're down to opinion and speculation.
I mean yeah. I said that shit was accident.
I chose to kill Conrad though. That idiot had it coming...
Well, everyone of us is practically Lee, because Lee was pretty much a blank slate.
So yeah, my Lee wouldn't sell Duck to the bandits, even if Clem would die because of that.
Apparently, silence wasn't a valid option there. slaps leg
To be completely honest, I would have chosen to remain silent if that was a viable response, but instead I did the same exact thing as you.
It doesn't make what she did intentional, but it still makes it murder. Stone hearted murder, too, once Clem responds with, "COVER THIS UP JAVI." Rather than "Oh my God I killed him"
We also don't know if Eli actually ripped them off or not. For all we know, there were 3 bad bullets in the box. Worth noting. Also, just because he was hostile before he was shoved into the chair, does not excuse his murder.
The reason to take sympathy on Eli is that he was murdered. By Clementine. For no good reason. And then Clementine expected you, a total stranger, to cover it up. That's reason enough.
That was before you knew they were even there. Having learned what we have about TNF, which, granted, isn't much, but we can safely assume that it would be much more difficult to accrue a massive group of child rapists who *also *let children into their ranks, than it would be to gather a group of thieves and murderers. And unless there's anything saying otherwise, that's an unreasonable connection to make. That's like saying that, "Because we never saw Vernon's group address the stranger, we can only assume that he was in kahoots with the stranger. He was setting us up the whole time". You simply have no evidence.
The little girl also murdered in front of me, and extorted a van from me. I owed nothing to Clementine, and think she's kind of a shitty person. Why would I *not *trade her life for Kate's?
Even then, you can't just ignore Clem's impervious plot armor. Nothing too bad is gonna happen to her that wouldn't have happened anyways. So why not give yourself the advantage?
Well I don't know about that. Look at all the other things he indeterminately does to protect Clementine. He lets Kenny get away with murder. He leaves multiple people to die. He sticks with the motor inn group, even once it starts falling apart. I don't think Lee would even look at it as a choice. He would just have to protect Clementine.
Good man.
I know them feels. sad face
Yes, but he had good reasons to do all of what he did, besides simply protecting Clementine.
Wait, scrap that off. In that situation it wouldn't even be protecting. It would be trading with life of someone else for Clem's life.
Alright. That's opinion. And now we're at the bottom of the argument. we can't go further than this.
Twas a good one, my man.
Yeah, it was an interesting discussion.
Have a good night/day.
I'll have to rewatch the scene, was she even looking at him when she fired/gun went off? She clearly panicked and asked Javier to cover for him, because he was there and attacked by him.
Again, this is the guy who's been accused of selling faulty bullets, and he literally pulls a knife charges a girl holding a gun on him, then struggles with Javier while she's still holding the gun on him. He's either an idiot or didn't expect to be shot. Tripp wasn't even pissed that he was dead, after he got done being pissed about firing a weapon with a herd outside and later makes a dismissive remark about Eli. Conrad was pissed someone started trouble in his bar.
All that aside, Javier has no idea how far he's been driven because he was unconscious. She immediately knows where it is when he mentions it, and offers to extort, I guess, him in exchange for taking him back to his family. He knows that she can lead him there, she's made a deal to do so, and he has had minimal interactions with the people in Prescott. Why would I, as Javier, risk them having no idea where I'm talking about instead of the girl who's clearly well travelled? Why would I, as a fan of hers, care that she has plot armor and just rat her out? If your choices make no difference on the outcome of the game, then all the change is how you experience it. So why make a choice because it has no impact on the outcome of the game when I can make one favorably for a favorite character.
I'm not saying you don't have to trade her life for Kate's, and I'm not sure where I called them a bunch of child rapists. I know for a fact a good deal of them have been shown to be murderers, her fear of them makes me thing if she went back it would be bad for her.
Again, this is a moral choice. I'm just not willing to barter a little girls life. I'm not willing to barter Clems life. If I have to justify it for Javier, I'm not bartering a little girls life who's helped me numerous times, saved my life when they wanted to execute me outside Prescott, or betraying the trust of a clearly damaged and lonely girl who's opening up to me. Especially not to the people who actively targeted and murdered my niece less than a day ago. I'd like to think Javier and Kate, as a mother, wouldn't be able to do that seeing what they've seen.
That's fair enough, this is really the only TT game I played, the first season left a pretty big impact on me in the first episode, so she's a huge part of the reason I'm with the series. I'm not really sure how aware Kate is of her surroundings by the time they find her in the car, but I am curious if she's going to have any reaction next episode to Javier taking the girl who reunited them hostage and turning them over to the people who actually took the time to line up a killshot on her adoptive daughter, who was only a few years younger than Clem.
Even outside of my choices, Javier still comes off as a decent, loyal, protective guy, part of me doesn't want to play him differently. That's why I surrendered rather than risk full assault on my family and the people who helped me during the Prescott confrontation. It is difficult separating myself from previous seasons attachments though lol
That is true and if people shot Conrad for legitimate reasons such as what you explained thats fine. It's the people that just blindly play the game to solely appease Clementine i think is wrong.
Damn, we're playing the game wrong, guys!
He was freaking out when Clem pulled the trigger. He was just beaten in a physical fight, and forced back into the chair. What was he going to do? Jump up and run? Scream? Both of those make Clem more likely to instinctually shoot him.
Anyways, Clem said it was nearby, and it's perfectly reasonable to assume that people in Prescott know what's in their general vicinity. And if you're still a fan of Clem's after she murdered someone, that's your prerogative. I stopped being a fan of Clem once she murdered a helpless man.
I think I actually brought the child rapists thing in from another argument. Look at how ridiculous this thread is. I'm pretty sure I brought that in, confused as to which one of you I was arguing. That's probably my bad. I got 20 notifications in 15 minutes. I'm a little flustered at the moment. Sorry about that.
Anyways, if you're not willing to barter with Clem's life to save Kate's that's your morals. Personally, I believe Kate's life is more valuable to Javi, and so I acted accordingly. Especially considering all of the shit that Clem did.
But again, that's me. Nobody's right or wrong here. I just got into this thread because I really disliked how people were attacking TinyCarlos' opinion.
Fair enough, I still don't believe she had intent so yea, I'm still a fan of hers. She was rash and reckless, but convinced the bullets wouldn't work and in shock at what happened.
But yea, these things do get out of hand, I mean I'll defend my reasoning and views, I've done it in other threads but even if I disagree with a certain choice I'm not gonna tell someone they're wrong, do it my way. It's everyone's own choice to make, you had your reasons for Conrad and I'm not gonna disrespect them. I just hate how these threads seem to devolve into "You're wrong, you only did it for Clem" because some people say they'll always side with her, and a war breaks out lol. Which sucks, because there's generally good conversation going on in the forums and its nice having other viewpoints so I can take a closer look at my own.
Exactly. The way I refused to betray Clementine for his suggestion and then he resorts to taking his nephew hostage afterwards didn't sit well with me at all. Someone that would take one hostage than you refuse to comply and then take another person that you care more for is nothing but a piece of shit.
Especially when I already gave myself up for Francine by coming out of the gate. Clementine was the one that got me out of that jam when that Badger fuck decided he wanted to just kill Javier and Francine off.
I think my trust for Clementine and my disdain for Conrad grew from those events.
Eh they payed to play it the way they want, if they prefer one playstyle over the other they have every right to. Their decisions don't affect you personally, try to let it go, upsetting yourself over what others do in their freetime is never healthy.