Clementine's not stupid. If she ran off on her own, she'd get fucking shot.
There was quite a lot of stuff separating them and those… more guys. And she is small. Making a run for it was much safer than facing them (even with Javier). I mean, seriously, i feel like those guys learned how to shoot from stormtroopers.
Accident or not. it was a really huge deal for Javier. If i was him, i would be grateful and feel like i own her something.
Well, it was to be expected, but it wasnt intentional. And the definition of an accident is "an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.". So it is partially an accident.
It's a trade, not a robbery
Or another gun to put a bullet in your brain.
Hmm, really? I will check it out later, because from what i remember she only pulled it twice.
"And, as I argued to the other guy, had she not intervened, Kate and Gabe would've gotten saved a lot quicker." I don't exactly know what you mean by that.
Yeah, it is a murder. But like i said - for me murder is flexible. As in how bad or good it can be. Not to mention laws have nothing to do with this whole situation.
* Again, unintentionally doing something right doesn't prove anything. I'll bring up the same example I brought to the other guy. Hitler's t… moreorture chambers and vivisections gave science and medicine huge amounts of information that they never would have known otherwise. Do you ever hear people praising Hitler for contributing to medicine? Accidentally means nothing.
* Can you call it an accident when you sit in front of a guy's face, pulling the trigger over and over again? You can't. That's murder in the second degree. It it entirely a lie, when you say she had to shoot.
* Alright, sure. She then proceeds to extort your van from you. Not shooting you on sight gave her the chance to rob you.
* When it's on your way, and the guy you're bringing along is another gun to help keep you safe? It's just what falls in her self interest. She did not go out of her way at all to help. It's basically the least possible effort "help" you could ever do… [view original content]
Also... You say murder is bad, no matter who was a person murdered.
By that logic, it doesn't matter how awful Clem is. In the end, she is still a kid. You sell a kid to people who can possibly kill her or worse - something like a rape, for example. You really have no right to shame anyone if that's the option that you think is better.
* Again, unintentionally doing something right doesn't prove anything. I'll bring up the same example I brought to the other guy. Hitler's t… moreorture chambers and vivisections gave science and medicine huge amounts of information that they never would have known otherwise. Do you ever hear people praising Hitler for contributing to medicine? Accidentally means nothing.
* Can you call it an accident when you sit in front of a guy's face, pulling the trigger over and over again? You can't. That's murder in the second degree. It it entirely a lie, when you say she had to shoot.
* Alright, sure. She then proceeds to extort your van from you. Not shooting you on sight gave her the chance to rob you.
* When it's on your way, and the guy you're bringing along is another gun to help keep you safe? It's just what falls in her self interest. She did not go out of her way at all to help. It's basically the least possible effort "help" you could ever do… [view original content]
Okay. You can feel like that all you want. It doesn't have any impact on the argument of how good of a person Clementine is.
I refer you to point 7.
"Get the money by Tuesday, or I'll beat your head in." -A trade. Gabe, Mari, and Kate are clearly among the only things Javi cares about. "Trading" with their lives is scummy at best, and more like extortion in my eyes at the very least.
Yeah. Getting back to the original point number 4, that wasn't kind, that was stupid. She trusted the guy she just extorted a van from. That's not an act of kindness, that's an act of blind trust in a man that you (maybe) just saw shoot someone in the back.
IIRC, it misfired once outside Prescott, then it misfired twice in Eli's face, and then on the third pull, Clementine became a stone cold murderer.
Look at the other arguments. I'm not going to repeat myself all night. Just hit ctrl f, and type in "quicker", and read the context for the post.
Okay, you can be okay with murderer Clem killing a man we know next to nothing about. But Clementine deserves prison. She didn't act in self defense, and she didn't act out of necessity. She murdered a man because of a perceived slight, that, for all we know, was 3 bad bullets in a single box. I mean, we never saw anyone else giving Clem good bullets, so I guess she's been using her victim's bullets this whole time.
Also, on that point, we know next to nothing about Eli. He was implied to be "bad" when he pulled a knife on them, sure, but he was also implied to have no knowledge of these bad bullets. When Clem pulled the trigger, he was SHOCKED that he wasn't dead. To me, it sounds more like a man who doesn't like it when his customers try to fuck him on his perfectly good product.
* Accident or not. it was a really huge deal for Javier. If i was him, i would be grateful and feel like i own her something.
* Well, it wa… mores to be expected, but it wasnt intentional. And the definition of an accident is "an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.". So it is partially an accident.
* It's a trade, not a robbery
* Or another gun to put a bullet in your brain.
* Hmm, really? I will check it out later, because from what i remember she only pulled it twice.
* "And, as I argued to the other guy, had she not intervened, Kate and Gabe would've gotten saved a lot quicker." I don't exactly know what you mean by that.
* Yeah, it is a murder. But like i said - for me murder is flexible. As in how bad or good it can be. Not to mention laws have nothing to do with this whole situation.
I'm really getting fed up with all these lame extreme choices the game unconvincingly forces players to partake in...
[Kill Conrad and show no sympathy or emotional pain from killing a member of the group]
or
[Take Clementine hostage and allow Conrad his stupid fucking plan of leveraging Clem to be used most likely as a human blade sharpener]
Why in the fuck can't we be a rational, relatable person doing things that makes sense and not have ourselves constantly surrounded by people who were more than likely dropped on the head a few too many times as a baby for them to make any calculated decisions?
Con-dunk just up and grabbed some kid and shoved a gun to his head and went full mouth-breather cause he wanted to do something...? So, naturally I shot him cause why not? But I was more confused then I've ever been and didn't know what just happened.
I'm kinda done with this argument, we're beating a dead horse at this point. I'm gonna try to remember about it and come back to it once episode 3 is released.
Though, i have to point out one thing - most people we met in TWD series deserve prison. Including Lee. But fine, lets pretends society is functioning the way it was. Clementine is still a child. She would be treated lightly. You seem to forget about that fact - that she is a child. A child, most likely with emotional issues. What she did was extremely retarded. But that doesn't mean she can't be trusted.
Also, if we talk about who deserves what - Clementine didnt deserve to see what she saw. But she did - because life doesn't matter about our feel of justice.
So in the end... It boils down not what Clementine did, but to the fact that she is a kid and Conrad is a fully grown man pointing a gun at your nephew. Are you willing to risk a life of a kid and contemplate an offer of a guy who is threatening your nephew for increased chance of your girlfriend surviving? It's also worth to mention Kate got shot because of her own stupidity.
* Okay. You can feel like that all you want. It doesn't have any impact on the argument of how good of a person Clementine is.
* I refer yo… moreu to point 7.
* "Get the money by Tuesday, or I'll beat your head in." -A trade. Gabe, Mari, and Kate are clearly among the only things Javi cares about. "Trading" with their lives is scummy at best, and more like extortion in my eyes at the very least.
* Yeah. Getting back to the original point number 4, that wasn't kind, that was stupid. She trusted the guy she just extorted a van from. That's not an act of kindness, that's an act of blind trust in a man that you (maybe) just saw shoot someone in the back.
* IIRC, it misfired once outside Prescott, then it misfired twice in Eli's face, and then on the third pull, Clementine became a stone cold murderer.
* Look at the other arguments. I'm not going to repeat myself all night. Just hit ctrl f, and type in "quicker", and read the context for the post.… [view original content]
Don't see the point in sell the one that has helped you a couple of times. And even trusted you with a secret. Is not like she's one of them anymore, so why does Morgan Freeman think that his plan will work? Either way, i made my decision of killing Conrad because i believe Javier trusted more in Clem than the other guy, and because he pointed a gun to his nephew.
What in fact i wanna know of all this is how the f**k did the New Frontier knew that Javier and his family were at Prescott. They didn't have a chance to follow Tripp, so, they followed Javier and Clem? Or followed Clem? (in case you left her on her own).
This far the game to me is good. Not S1 tipe of good, but good. the only complaint i have is how d*mn short the episodes are.
Don't see the point in sell the one that has helped you a couple of times. And even trusted you with a secret. Is not like she's one of them… more anymore, so why does Morgan Freeman think that his plan will work? Either way, i made my decision of killing Conrad because i believe Javier trusted more in Clem than the other guy, and because he pointed a gun to his nephew.
What in fact i wanna know of all this is how the f**k did the New Frontier knew that Javier and his family were at Prescott. They didn't have a chance to follow Tripp, so, they followed Javier and Clem? Or followed Clem? (in case you left her on her own).
This far the game to me is good. Not S1 tipe of good, but good. the only complaint i have is how d*mn short the episodes are.
Lee did deserve prison, but that was the basis of his whole arc. He takes care of a little girl, and in the end sacrifices himself for her so he could forgive himself for what he did to that senator. When Clementine murders, though, we're supposed to just play the sad trombone and move on. That just doesn't feel right. I'd also argue that most characters don't deserve prison for the simple fact that most of the things they did were in self defense. Kenny a la season 1 had a debatable place in prison, with Larry's death, and with his attempted assault on Ben. But the brutality, and the unjustness of what Kenny did was part of the point. What Clementine did, and how awful and disgusting it was, Telltale just wants you to forget, and cover for her because she's Clementine and you love her. That's not how things work.
It also doesn't boil down to Conrad pointing a gun at Gabe. If Conrad pointed a gun at Gabe in any other context, I would have shot him without a second thought, but Conrad's deal gave Javier a better chance of saving Kate, and in exchange, all he had to do was trade in Clementine. And who is Clem to Javier? Especially when compared to Kate? Nobody. Nobody at all. It doesn't matter how Kate got shot, she is family, and Javier's whole drive throughout this game is to defend his family. So if it saves his family, yes my Javier will contemplate his offer.
I'm kinda done with this argument, we're beating a dead horse at this point. I'm gonna try to remember about it and come back to it once epi… moresode 3 is released.
Though, i have to point out one thing - most people we met in TWD series deserve prison. Including Lee. But fine, lets pretends society is functioning the way it was. Clementine is still a child. She would be treated lightly. You seem to forget about that fact - that she is a child. A child, most likely with emotional issues. What she did was extremely retarded. But that doesn't mean she can't be trusted.
Also, if we talk about who deserves what - Clementine didnt deserve to see what she saw. But she did - because life doesn't matter about our feel of justice.
So in the end... It boils down not what Clementine did, but to the fact that she is a kid and Conrad is a fully grown man pointing a gun at your nephew. Are you willing to risk a life of a kid and contemplate an offer of… [view original content]
We don't have any reason to believe that these people are child rapists. We have some reason to believe that they might kill her, but if getting a murderer killed, and yes, Clementine is past the age of responsibility (or I forget what the legal term is, but she can be held accountable for her actions) might save Javier's family, then I think it's worth doing. This is also the one spot where I might mention one small bit of meta-knowledge. They're not going to kill Clementine. Easily they're not. They're not going to hurt her that bad, and everyone knows it. Part of me picking this choice was also seeing just how far they were going to go with me actively disliking and trying to screw over Clementine, even though it is a reasonable choice in its own right. Shaming you is also not what I'm doing. I'm expressing my opinion, which just so happens to be opposite from yours, on a forum, built for discussion.
Also... You say murder is bad, no matter who was a person murdered.
By that logic, it doesn't matter how awful Clem is. In the end, she i… mores still a kid. You sell a kid to people who can possibly kill her or worse - something like a rape, for example. You really have no right to shame anyone if that's the option that you think is better.
Since episode 1, Clementine has murdered, extorted, stolen, and she hasn't batted an eye. Carl at least was a decent human being when he was edgy. He was being edgy for his dead friend. Clem is edgy for edge's sake.
Since episode 1, Clementine has murdered, extorted, stolen, and she hasn't batted an eye. Carl at least was a decent human being when he was edgy. He was being edgy for his dead friend. Clem is edgy for edge's sake.
I'm glad you brought this up. First off, Shane's death was in self defense. Shane was literally about to fill Rick with shotgun pellets.
But as for the rest of it, the brutality was the point. Kirkman wanted us to question whether Carl was still there in the head. The brutal death that happened right in front of Carl drove him to do all those things, and avenge his friend. It doesn't make me forgive him, but it at least tells me that it's part of some point. That distrust, and worry are part of the emotions we're supposed to be feeling towards him. Even that menacing light in the third panel is meant to communicate to the reader that what Carl is saying is not okay. It's an intentional part of his arc that goes somewhere. When Clementine murders a person, and literally both of your options are you defending her, with varying amounts of truth being the key difference, that tells me that TTG just expect you to love Clementine even despite the awful shit she did. Nobody's mentioned it since, and I doubt people will mention it in the future, disregarding a throwaway line or two. That's why it bothers me. It's Clem being edgy and awful for the sake of being edgy and awful.
Also worth mentioning, the people Carl murdered were literally all murderers, extortioners, and thieves.
Shane was literally about to fill Rick with shotgun pellets.
Sure, that's a good point. Eli sold Clem faulty bullets which almost got her killed and it possibly got other unknown people killed. Now, don't forget Eli tried to stab Clem and obviously Javi stopped him. Clem killing Eli wasn't self-defense per se, but he did try to stab her.
But as for the rest of it, the brutality was the point.
You're absolutely right and Clem is no exception to the brutality of this world.
The brutal death that happened right in front of Carl drove him to do all those things, and avenge his friend.
I'm forgetting what death you're talking about.
It's Clem being edgy and awful for the sake of being edgy and awful.
Same with Carl. Your point?
Also worth mentioning, the people Carl murdered were literally all murderers, extortioners, and thieves.
How do you know this? Can you be sure? Maybe they are just people trying to get by in this world and they joined the saviors in order to do so. With every single group of people in the world, not every single person in that group is bad. We can see that after the war and how the saviors (for the most part) are good people.
What if Eli was a murderer and extortionist? Clem has only technically murdered 1 person. Carl has murdered a lot more people than that yet you're defending him.
I'm glad you brought this up. First off, Shane's death was in self defense. Shane was literally about to fill Rick with shotgun pellets.
… moreBut as for the rest of it, the brutality was the point. Kirkman wanted us to question whether Carl was still there in the head. The brutal death that happened right in front of Carl drove him to do all those things, and avenge his friend. It doesn't make me forgive him, but it at least tells me that it's part of some point. That distrust, and worry are part of the emotions we're supposed to be feeling towards him. Even that menacing light in the third panel is meant to communicate to the reader that what Carl is saying is not okay. It's an intentional part of his arc that goes somewhere. When Clementine murders a person, and literally both of your options are you defending her, with varying amounts of truth being the key difference, that tells me that TTG just expect you to love Clementine even despite th… [view original content]
The thing is, should it have been possible to take Shane down another way, he would not have been killed. Eli didn't NEED the gun in his face to be shot three times. Eli was already taken down. He did try to stab them for sure. He was not in the process of trying to kill them.
If TTG were trying to make Clem's brutality the point, they would not just have Javi basically unconditionally forgive her for it. Even in the comic, Rick chastised Carl once or twice for being an edgelord. Javi can basically just say "Jesus" and move on. I mean Carl's brutality was the point when he gets framed in evil lighting, when Negan proves that the brutality is just a shield, and that Carl is actually a small, weak child. It's not the point when nobody can really call Clem out on being a straight up murderer. It's not part of the point when they expect you to forget it and move on as they have.
You forget the death I'm talking about, and you claim Saviors aren't all murderers and theives? Did you read the comic? Okay, well this is the death I'm referring to, since you've already clicked on the spoiler tag:
The Saviors DO have a decent person here and there. Dwight, Sherry, hell, Negan isn't all too bad himself, but they're all decent people who have decided that they're okay with murdering and stealing from innocent people, meaning they deserve what they get. The Saviors were also the group currently subjecting Carl's community to a slow death by attrition, so in a sense, that slaughter was self defense, too.
Carl was not being edgy for the sake of the edge. He was being edgy so he could avenge his dead compatriot, and do what he thought was right. Once his dead compatriot was avenged, Carl went back to being as normal and kind of a kid as he could be. Granted, he had serious PTSD, but he tried to be decent. Meanwhile, Clementine extorts, murders, and steals just because it suits her. For no greater cause than herself.
Shane was literally about to fill Rick with shotgun pellets.
Sure, that's a good point. Eli sold Clem faulty bullets which almost go… moret her killed and it possibly got other unknown people killed. Now, don't forget Eli tried to stab Clem and obviously Javi stopped him. Clem killing Eli wasn't self-defense per se, but he did try to stab her.
But as for the rest of it, the brutality was the point.
You're absolutely right and Clem is no exception to the brutality of this world.
The brutal death that happened right in front of Carl drove him to do all those things, and avenge his friend.
I'm forgetting what death you're talking about.
It's Clem being edgy and awful for the sake of being edgy and awful.
Same with Carl. Your point?
Also worth mentioning, the people Carl murdered were literally all murderers, extortioners, and thieves.
How do you know this? Can you be sure? Maybe they are … [view original content]
You mean the people who killed everyone in Prescott? I am sure nothing bad will happen to someone who ran away from them...keep telling yourself that. Also...didn't Carl start the Whisper War for some pussy?
We don't have any reason to believe that these people are child rapists. We have some reason to believe that they might kill her, but if get… moreting a murderer killed, and yes, Clementine is past the age of responsibility (or I forget what the legal term is, but she can be held accountable for her actions) might save Javier's family, then I think it's worth doing. This is also the one spot where I might mention one small bit of meta-knowledge. They're not going to kill Clementine. Easily they're not. They're not going to hurt her that bad, and everyone knows it. Part of me picking this choice was also seeing just how far they were going to go with me actively disliking and trying to screw over Clementine, even though it is a reasonable choice in its own right. Shaming you is also not what I'm doing. I'm expressing my opinion, which just so happens to be opposite from yours, on a forum, built for discussion.
Carl did start the Whisper War for pussy, and that's pretty close to when I stopped reading the comic. He got SHIT after the time skip for sure. I'm mostly talking about Carl during the Savior arc.
Yeah, something bad probably would happen to Clem. But there's no reason to think it's child rape. And her life is much less valuable than that of Kate's to me. Especially when one considers Clementine's impenetrable plot armor, and the fanboy army that would march if anything TOO horrific happened to her.
You mean the people who killed everyone in Prescott? I am sure nothing bad will happen to someone who ran away from them...keep telling yourself that. Also...didn't Carl start the Whisper War for some pussy?
So you concede then as I just shot your boy Carl down in flames..also when I play the game I ignore the fanboy thing and think what would actually happen.
.
Carl did start the Whisper War for pussy, and that's pretty close to when I stopped reading the comic. He got SHIT after the time skip for s… moreure. I'm mostly talking about Carl during the Savior arc.
Yeah, something bad probably would happen to Clem. But there's no reason to think it's child rape. And her life is much less valuable than that of Kate's to me. Especially when one considers Clementine's impenetrable plot armor, and the fanboy army that would march if anything TOO horrific happened to her.
I do read the comics; I'm all caught up. Telltale isn't making Clem's brutality the only point, but they are making it a point. For one, we have no clue what Clem went through in the 2-year time jump, especially while a part of The New Frontier; they may have tortured her or they might have done things worse than torture. We just don't know.
The Saviors subjected Rick's group after the Alexandrians murdered a ton of the Saviors. What would you have done? Not punish them? You might say what Negan did to Glenn was punishment enough, but was it really? I say they got off easy.
With your logic, you could say the Saviors were defending themselves against Rick's group. It doesn't even matter if Carl wanted to avenge Glenn or think it was the right thing to do, he sill committed murder(s), in what would be considered the first degree. Hell, you can even classify Carl as being a mass-murderer.
He was being edgy as shit about Eugene, was he not? What he said about Eugene was absolutely true, even if it sounds wrong to say. Just like Clem's edginess.
The thing is, should it have been possible to take Shane down another way, he would not have been killed. Eli didn't NEED the gun in his fac… moree to be shot three times. Eli was already taken down. He did try to stab them for sure. He was not in the process of trying to kill them.
If TTG were trying to make Clem's brutality the point, they would not just have Javi basically unconditionally forgive her for it. Even in the comic, Rick chastised Carl once or twice for being an edgelord. Javi can basically just say "Jesus" and move on. I mean Carl's brutality was the point when he gets framed in evil lighting, when Negan proves that the brutality is just a shield, and that Carl is actually a small, weak child. It's not the point when nobody can really call Clem out on being a straight up murderer. It's not part of the point when they expect you to forget it and move on as they have.
You forget the death I'm talking about, and you claim Saviors … [view original content]
No. I concede that current Carl is shitty. The Carl I actually liked and have been referring to and comparing Clementine to was not... I don't concede the argument.
So you concede then as I just shot your boy Carl down in flames..also when I play the game I ignore the fanboy thing and think what would actually happen.
.
They aren't making it much of a point. If they were, people would talk about it outside of the moment she's brutal. Like Kenny in S2. They made his sanity a point by having people have genuine and valid opinions on his sanity, and having them express those opinions outside of the direct moment it became relevant.
The Saviors subjected Rick's group to that death by attrition after Rick's group killed a couple of Saviors to defend themselves from a death by attrition. Also, are you defending The Saviors? Why? What does this have to do with you defending Clementine? What? Are you trying to argue that Carl didn't have reason to go and shoot up the Savior's compound? Because he did.
They attacked Rick's group first. They were defending themselves eventually, but that's because they were eventually in legit war. Caused by their actions. And before you compare that to Eli, no, Eli putting three bad bullets in his box of bullets is not an attack. He did not deserve what came to him.
Oh, he was talking about Eugene in that scene? Even then, he had more reason to be mean to Eugene than Clem had to be mean to Eli or Javi. Eugene had been leading Abraham and Rosita on a death march around the USA, and had wrapped up Rick's group in his lie as well. Eli gave Clem a box of mostly working bullets. Javi did literally nothing to Clem, and Clem extorted from him.
I do read the comics; I'm all caught up. Telltale isn't making Clem's brutality the only point, but they are making it a point. For one, we … morehave no clue what Clem went through in the 2-year time jump, especially while a part of The New Frontier; they may have tortured her or they might have done things worse than torture. We just don't know.
The Saviors subjected Rick's group after the Alexandrians murdered a ton of the Saviors. What would you have done? Not punish them? You might say what Negan did to Glenn was punishment enough, but was it really? I say they got off easy.
With your logic, you could say the Saviors were defending themselves against Rick's group. It doesn't even matter if Carl wanted to avenge Glenn or think it was the right thing to do, he sill committed murder(s), in what would be considered the first degree. Hell, you can even classify Carl as being a mass-murderer.
He was being edgy as shit about Eugene, was he n… [view original content]
Sure, it's not a huge point, but here and there it's mentioned. Well, only Javier, really. Javi says (Determinantly) "You do have a temper sometimes", after the gun went off. If you don't defend Clem, after she kills Eli, Eleanor says "there's something cold behind her eyes." Honestly, do you think people really give a shit if you kill this far into the apocalypse? Are people really going to judge you when it's extremely likely that almost everyone has at least murdered someone, in cold blood, at least once? I really don't think so.
Also, are you defending The Saviors? Why? What does this have to do with you defending Clementine? What? Are you trying to argue that Carl didn't have reason to go and shoot up the Savior's compound? Because he did.
But did he really? Yes, Negan killed Glenn, but Rick and co. killed dozens of the saviors and as much as it sucks to see Glenn go, it was a light punishment. Also, I'm not defending the saviors so much as seeing an unjustifiable mass murder and calling it out. It wasn't justified. At all.
Did they really attack Rick's group first? You sure? Rick made the deal with the Hilltop and didn't realize how in over his head he was when he made it. I'm 99% sure Rick attacked the saviors first. I agree, Carl did have every right to call out Eugene, he told the truth (at the time). Clem gave Javi a chance to leave her right when they first met but he decided he wanted her help instead. The least he can do is defend her while she is helping him.
They aren't making it much of a point. If they were, people would talk about it outside of the moment she's brutal. Like Kenny in S2. They m… moreade his sanity a point by having people have genuine and valid opinions on his sanity, and having them express those opinions outside of the direct moment it became relevant.
The Saviors subjected Rick's group to that death by attrition after Rick's group killed a couple of Saviors to defend themselves from a death by attrition. Also, are you defending The Saviors? Why? What does this have to do with you defending Clementine? What? Are you trying to argue that Carl didn't have reason to go and shoot up the Savior's compound? Because he did.
They attacked Rick's group first. They were defending themselves eventually, but that's because they were eventually in legit war. Caused by their actions. And before you compare that to Eli, no, Eli putting three bad bullets in his box of bullets is not an attac… [view original content]
I do think people give a shit if you kill an innocent person in an otherwise peaceful community like Prescott.
Again, all of those things Javi and Elanor said are pretty much right as she does those evil things. Nobody ever makes it a point to go out of their way to bring it up to you. Nobody ever reacts to her as if she's done these evil things. I am going to judge because most people are likely to have murdered in self defense, or for other reasons, but not because of a perceived in the past slight.
The Saviors were sentencing Alexandria to a slow death. They were taking half of their things every week. And Glenn's horrific death was way over the line, and heartless. The Saviors that Rick and co killed were all attempting to take half of their things. That could lead to anybody in the place dying because they didn't have supplies they would have had otherwise. Stealing is effectively an attack in this universe. It's not like in our world where you can go to the grocery store and pick up a new bottle of meds. In the apocalypse, if someone steals your food or medicine or guns or anything, they are decreasing the chance that you can save one of your own when you might need whatever it was that was stolen.
Okay, maybe Rick and co did attack first, but even if they did, it was only a matter of time before Negan and co found Alexandria, and did what they did to Hilltop. TBH I honestly don't remember which group attacked first, but I'm 100% sure that it doesn't matter. Regardless of who attacked first, Rick and co attacked knowing that the Saviors acting in the way they continued to act was a threat to Alexandria's continued survival, justifying what they did. Meanwhile, Eli living or dying did not impact Clementine's future ability to live, yet she still pulled that trigger over and over again.
Sure, it's not a huge point, but here and there it's mentioned. Well, only Javier, really. Javi says (Determinantly) "You do have a temper s… moreometimes", after the gun went off. If you don't defend Clem, after she kills Eli, Eleanor says "there's something cold behind her eyes." Honestly, do you think people really give a shit if you kill this far into the apocalypse? Are people really going to judge you when it's extremely likely that almost everyone has at least murdered someone, in cold blood, at least once? I really don't think so.
Also, are you defending The Saviors? Why? What does this have to do with you defending Clementine? What? Are you trying to argue that Carl didn't have reason to go and shoot up the Savior's compound? Because he did.
But did he really? Yes, Negan killed Glenn, but Rick and co. killed dozens of the saviors and as much as it sucks to see Glenn go, it was a light punishment. Also, I'm not defending the s… [view original content]
Obviously, people will care if you kill someone, but definitely not like today's day and age.
Evil is a strong word. She might have killed a guy in cold blood, but what she did was not evil. Especially it being an accident.
Again, and I'll keep saying this, Rick and co. attacked the Saviors first, thus Negan and his men were justified in doing what they were doing to Alexandria. Negan didn't take the Alexandrians food because he didn't want them to starve to death. I understand stealing is terrible for other survivors in this world, but it's better than just killing everyone, which Rick and co. would have done to the Saviors if they had the chance at the time.
How do you know Negan would have found Alexandria? He didn't know it existed for 2 years, what makes you think he would have found it anytime soon? Why should killing someone impact your future ability to live in an apocalypse?
I do think people give a shit if you kill an innocent person in an otherwise peaceful community like Prescott.
Again, all of those things… more Javi and Elanor said are pretty much right as she does those evil things. Nobody ever makes it a point to go out of their way to bring it up to you. Nobody ever reacts to her as if she's done these evil things. I am going to judge because most people are likely to have murdered in self defense, or for other reasons, but not because of a perceived in the past slight.
The Saviors were sentencing Alexandria to a slow death. They were taking half of their things every week. And Glenn's horrific death was way over the line, and heartless. The Saviors that Rick and co killed were all attempting to take half of their things. That could lead to anybody in the place dying because they didn't have supplies they would have had otherwise. Stealing is effectively an attack in this universe. It's not like in our wo… [view original content]
People care about innocent deaths just as much as they ever have. And that guy was innocent.
Evil is a strong word. And apt. Again, you can't call it an accident when you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. It's hard to act surprised when a bullet flies out of the gun. Even then, accidental or not, what Clem did was 2nd degree murder. Not manslaughter. Murder. And Clem didn't give a fuck. She was just immediately like, "get me out of this situation Javi. NOW."
Not when the people being killed are causing deaths by attrition to literally every other civilization in the area. Negan was keeping them alive as long as it suited him. Once they ran out of medicine to find in any place nearby, do you think that he just wouldn't have stolen anything? No, he would have eaten into their food, and he would do it again and again until Alexandria either fell or found something else to give him. He was sucking them dry.
Because Negan's scouting parties were practically outside of Rick's doors as soon as they met Hilltop.
Obviously, people will care if you kill someone, but definitely not like today's day and age.
Evil is a strong word. She might have kille… mored a guy in cold blood, but what she did was not evil. Especially it being an accident.
Again, and I'll keep saying this, Rick and co. attacked the Saviors first, thus Negan and his men were justified in doing what they were doing to Alexandria. Negan didn't take the Alexandrians food because he didn't want them to starve to death. I understand stealing is terrible for other survivors in this world, but it's better than just killing everyone, which Rick and co. would have done to the Saviors if they had the chance at the time.
How do you know Negan would have found Alexandria? He didn't know it existed for 2 years, what makes you think he would have found it anytime soon? Why should killing someone impact your future ability to live in an apocalypse?
I didn't feel bad shooting Conrad. I had sympathy for him b/c of his fragile state due to Francine's death, but once he took Gabe hostage i said, "that's it. He's not going to threaten my family to get what he wants. I don't care how emotionally scarred he may right now".
Also, i thought that if i didn't kill him he might somehow kill Gabe in the process anyway.
Javi says "She's a liar, that's what! Told us a bunch of tall-tales, tried to pull us into her shit."
Clem responds with... I don't really know what to call it. A look of guilt maybe? Distress? Hurt?
After this she looks down and stretches her lips to a sort of half-smile like she isn't really faulting him for it. I'd get a screenshot for it, but I'm not playing through an hour just to get it. Thanks again for removing the rewind, TellTale.
Yeah. I gave myself up to The New Frontier back at Prescott for Francine, seeing as how this crap was kind of Javier's fault. And then when the twist of the century happens that they plan to straight up kill you, Clementine saves you and on the road Conrad flips his shit and blames you regardless, which definitely pissed me off. Him bringing up Javi's past life and ignoring the fact his niece died, his close friend was shot and his nephew was probably still grieving didn't help.
I could have forgiven that over time as an emotional outburst, fine. But him pulling that stunt in the tunnels against Clem and Gabe did it for me. I just didn't care at that point.
I didn't feel bad shooting Conrad. I had sympathy for him b/c of his fragile state due to Francine's death, but once he took Gabe hostage i … moresaid, "that's it. He's not going to threaten my family to get what he wants. I don't care how emotionally scarred he may right now".
Also, i thought that if i didn't kill him he might somehow kill Gabe in the process anyway.
We're not even in a zombie apocalypse and people already talk about how hot Clementine is.
Trust me, there would be someone like that. If they can slaughter people, i'm sure they can also rape a 13 years old girl.
So yeah. I treat the situation like i'm Javier and i can only guess what's going to happen. Even though Kate's life is very valuable for Javier, that doesn't mean he has to walk on people's corpses just to save her. And accept a plan of a ticking bomb that is threatening your nephew.
Kate is hurt because Now Frontier shot Mariana. Your response to this? Sell a kid to them, with a chance they will kill her too.
Oh by the way, about that shaming part. I wasn't talking about me, i was talking about Clementine. I'm okay with people having different opinions.
We don't have any reason to believe that these people are child rapists. We have some reason to believe that they might kill her, but if get… moreting a murderer killed, and yes, Clementine is past the age of responsibility (or I forget what the legal term is, but she can be held accountable for her actions) might save Javier's family, then I think it's worth doing. This is also the one spot where I might mention one small bit of meta-knowledge. They're not going to kill Clementine. Easily they're not. They're not going to hurt her that bad, and everyone knows it. Part of me picking this choice was also seeing just how far they were going to go with me actively disliking and trying to screw over Clementine, even though it is a reasonable choice in its own right. Shaming you is also not what I'm doing. I'm expressing my opinion, which just so happens to be opposite from yours, on a forum, built for discussion.
Maybe because her story isn't over yet, and you don't even give her a chance at redemption?
Who is Clem to Javier? Well, maybe from starters - a person. And a kid. You talk about how Clem 'killed a person boohoo', and then you ignore the fact selling out Clem is a bad thing to do. She might die and not in a painless way like that guy.
I didn't forget that Clem killed that guy. I took it into the account. I still consider her a trustworthy character, even though i see that she can lose control of the situation.
Even if you dont think she is trustworthy, she is still a person, and a kid, who did nothing to you.
Lee did deserve prison, but that was the basis of his whole arc. He takes care of a little girl, and in the end sacrifices himself for her s… moreo he could forgive himself for what he did to that senator. When Clementine murders, though, we're supposed to just play the sad trombone and move on. That just doesn't feel right. I'd also argue that most characters don't deserve prison for the simple fact that most of the things they did were in self defense. Kenny a la season 1 had a debatable place in prison, with Larry's death, and with his attempted assault on Ben. But the brutality, and the unjustness of what Kenny did was part of the point. What Clementine did, and how awful and disgusting it was, Telltale just wants you to forget, and cover for her because she's Clementine and you love her. That's not how things work.
It also doesn't boil down to Conrad pointing a gun at Gabe. If Conrad pointed a gun at Gabe in any other context, I would have … [view original content]
Lol yeah, there are freaks on the internet. A lot of freaks on the internet. Higher proportion of freaks on the internet than there are in real life, most would say.
Yeah there'd be someone willing to do something so awful, but it's doubtful that they'd come together to make a community as strong as The New Frontier, when one of their policies is that they're okay with raping children. Murder and rape are two entirely different crimes based on different emotions. Just because someone does one does not mean they'll do the other. Ask any random thug or murderer what they think about rape. 90% of them are gonna call it the evilest shit that ever existed. Rapists don't live through prison sentences more than most other types of offenders.
I treat the situation like I'm Javier, and I can only guess what's gonna happen. We either show up with nothing and beg, or we trade them something to save one of the few people left that matters to me. Especially when what we're giving them is a murderer who tried to extort something from me which has ensured my livelihood for a good while now. I'm perfectly happy trading one life for another in those conditions. Yeah, that guy is a cunt who threatened my nephew, but I'm not buying into him. I'm buying into the plan that at least lets us show up with SOMETHING we can offer TNF, to save someone I love.
You think Lee would've said no, if he could have let Duck die, in order to save Clementine? What if Duck was a cold hearted murderer, and a thief, on top of being annoying? Lee would have dropped Duck less than a second in order to save Clem. My Javier would drop Clem to save Kate.
We're not even in a zombie apocalypse and people already talk about how hot Clementine is.
Trust me, there would be someone like that. If… more they can slaughter people, i'm sure they can also rape a 13 years old girl.
So yeah. I treat the situation like i'm Javier and i can only guess what's going to happen. Even though Kate's life is very valuable for Javier, that doesn't mean he has to walk on people's corpses just to save her. And accept a plan of a ticking bomb that is threatening your nephew.
Kate is hurt because Now Frontier shot Mariana. Your response to this? Sell a kid to them, with a chance they will kill her too.
Oh by the way, about that shaming part. I wasn't talking about me, i was talking about Clementine. I'm okay with people having different opinions.
Comments
Tru dat. They nail Mariana between the eyes, then can't shoot shit while Javier stands completely still in shock.
Also... You say murder is bad, no matter who was a person murdered.
By that logic, it doesn't matter how awful Clem is. In the end, she is still a kid. You sell a kid to people who can possibly kill her or worse - something like a rape, for example. You really have no right to shame anyone if that's the option that you think is better.
Also, on that point, we know next to nothing about Eli. He was implied to be "bad" when he pulled a knife on them, sure, but he was also implied to have no knowledge of these bad bullets. When Clem pulled the trigger, he was SHOCKED that he wasn't dead. To me, it sounds more like a man who doesn't like it when his customers try to fuck him on his perfectly good product.
I'm really getting fed up with all these lame extreme choices the game unconvincingly forces players to partake in...
[Kill Conrad and show no sympathy or emotional pain from killing a member of the group]
or
[Take Clementine hostage and allow Conrad his stupid fucking plan of leveraging Clem to be used most likely as a human blade sharpener]
Why in the fuck can't we be a rational, relatable person doing things that makes sense and not have ourselves constantly surrounded by people who were more than likely dropped on the head a few too many times as a baby for them to make any calculated decisions?
Con-dunk just up and grabbed some kid and shoved a gun to his head and went full mouth-breather cause he wanted to do something...? So, naturally I shot him cause why not? But I was more confused then I've ever been and didn't know what just happened.
I'm kinda done with this argument, we're beating a dead horse at this point. I'm gonna try to remember about it and come back to it once episode 3 is released.
Though, i have to point out one thing - most people we met in TWD series deserve prison. Including Lee. But fine, lets pretends society is functioning the way it was. Clementine is still a child. She would be treated lightly. You seem to forget about that fact - that she is a child. A child, most likely with emotional issues. What she did was extremely retarded. But that doesn't mean she can't be trusted.
Also, if we talk about who deserves what - Clementine didnt deserve to see what she saw. But she did - because life doesn't matter about our feel of justice.
So in the end... It boils down not what Clementine did, but to the fact that she is a kid and Conrad is a fully grown man pointing a gun at your nephew. Are you willing to risk a life of a kid and contemplate an offer of a guy who is threatening your nephew for increased chance of your girlfriend surviving? It's also worth to mention Kate got shot because of her own stupidity.
No, none of them look convincing
I accepted Conrad's plan and told New Frontier that Clem is a troublemaker.
Goddamn, that was so satisfying.
You goddamn traitor
Don't see the point in sell the one that has helped you a couple of times. And even trusted you with a secret. Is not like she's one of them anymore, so why does Morgan Freeman think that his plan will work? Either way, i made my decision of killing Conrad because i believe Javier trusted more in Clem than the other guy, and because he pointed a gun to his nephew.
What in fact i wanna know of all this is how the f**k did the New Frontier knew that Javier and his family were at Prescott. They didn't have a chance to follow Tripp, so, they followed Javier and Clem? Or followed Clem? (in case you left her on her own).
This far the game to me is good. Not S1 tipe of good, but good. the only complaint i have is how d*mn short the episodes are.
"Morgan Freeman"
Lmao
Lee did deserve prison, but that was the basis of his whole arc. He takes care of a little girl, and in the end sacrifices himself for her so he could forgive himself for what he did to that senator. When Clementine murders, though, we're supposed to just play the sad trombone and move on. That just doesn't feel right. I'd also argue that most characters don't deserve prison for the simple fact that most of the things they did were in self defense. Kenny a la season 1 had a debatable place in prison, with Larry's death, and with his attempted assault on Ben. But the brutality, and the unjustness of what Kenny did was part of the point. What Clementine did, and how awful and disgusting it was, Telltale just wants you to forget, and cover for her because she's Clementine and you love her. That's not how things work.
It also doesn't boil down to Conrad pointing a gun at Gabe. If Conrad pointed a gun at Gabe in any other context, I would have shot him without a second thought, but Conrad's deal gave Javier a better chance of saving Kate, and in exchange, all he had to do was trade in Clementine. And who is Clem to Javier? Especially when compared to Kate? Nobody. Nobody at all. It doesn't matter how Kate got shot, she is family, and Javier's whole drive throughout this game is to defend his family. So if it saves his family, yes my Javier will contemplate his offer.
We don't have any reason to believe that these people are child rapists. We have some reason to believe that they might kill her, but if getting a murderer killed, and yes, Clementine is past the age of responsibility (or I forget what the legal term is, but she can be held accountable for her actions) might save Javier's family, then I think it's worth doing. This is also the one spot where I might mention one small bit of meta-knowledge. They're not going to kill Clementine. Easily they're not. They're not going to hurt her that bad, and everyone knows it. Part of me picking this choice was also seeing just how far they were going to go with me actively disliking and trying to screw over Clementine, even though it is a reasonable choice in its own right. Shaming you is also not what I'm doing. I'm expressing my opinion, which just so happens to be opposite from yours, on a forum, built for discussion.
Awful? What do you mean by awful?
So you concede? Tell me why they're unconvincing, or forfeit.
SHE'S SO ADORABLE!
Since episode 1, Clementine has murdered, extorted, stolen, and she hasn't batted an eye. Carl at least was a decent human being when he was edgy. He was being edgy for his dead friend. Clem is edgy for edge's sake.
Right, ok... I can't take your argument seriously, like at all.
I'm glad you brought this up. First off, Shane's death was in self defense. Shane was literally about to fill Rick with shotgun pellets.
But as for the rest of it, the brutality was the point. Kirkman wanted us to question whether Carl was still there in the head. The brutal death that happened right in front of Carl drove him to do all those things, and avenge his friend. It doesn't make me forgive him, but it at least tells me that it's part of some point. That distrust, and worry are part of the emotions we're supposed to be feeling towards him. Even that menacing light in the third panel is meant to communicate to the reader that what Carl is saying is not okay. It's an intentional part of his arc that goes somewhere. When Clementine murders a person, and literally both of your options are you defending her, with varying amounts of truth being the key difference, that tells me that TTG just expect you to love Clementine even despite the awful shit she did. Nobody's mentioned it since, and I doubt people will mention it in the future, disregarding a throwaway line or two. That's why it bothers me. It's Clem being edgy and awful for the sake of being edgy and awful.
Also worth mentioning, the people Carl murdered were literally all murderers, extortioners, and thieves.
Sure, that's a good point. Eli sold Clem faulty bullets which almost got her killed and it possibly got other unknown people killed. Now, don't forget Eli tried to stab Clem and obviously Javi stopped him. Clem killing Eli wasn't self-defense per se, but he did try to stab her.
You're absolutely right and Clem is no exception to the brutality of this world.
I'm forgetting what death you're talking about.
Same with Carl. Your point?
How do you know this? Can you be sure? Maybe they are just people trying to get by in this world and they joined the saviors in order to do so. With every single group of people in the world, not every single person in that group is bad. We can see that after the war and how the saviors (for the most part) are good people.
What if Eli was a murderer and extortionist? Clem has only technically murdered 1 person. Carl has murdered a lot more people than that yet you're defending him.
The thing is, should it have been possible to take Shane down another way, he would not have been killed. Eli didn't NEED the gun in his face to be shot three times. Eli was already taken down. He did try to stab them for sure. He was not in the process of trying to kill them.
If TTG were trying to make Clem's brutality the point, they would not just have Javi basically unconditionally forgive her for it. Even in the comic, Rick chastised Carl once or twice for being an edgelord. Javi can basically just say "Jesus" and move on. I mean Carl's brutality was the point when he gets framed in evil lighting, when Negan proves that the brutality is just a shield, and that Carl is actually a small, weak child. It's not the point when nobody can really call Clem out on being a straight up murderer. It's not part of the point when they expect you to forget it and move on as they have.
You forget the death I'm talking about, and you claim Saviors aren't all murderers and theives? Did you read the comic? Okay, well this is the death I'm referring to, since you've already clicked on the spoiler tag:
The Saviors DO have a decent person here and there. Dwight, Sherry, hell, Negan isn't all too bad himself, but they're all decent people who have decided that they're okay with murdering and stealing from innocent people, meaning they deserve what they get. The Saviors were also the group currently subjecting Carl's community to a slow death by attrition, so in a sense, that slaughter was self defense, too.
Carl was not being edgy for the sake of the edge. He was being edgy so he could avenge his dead compatriot, and do what he thought was right. Once his dead compatriot was avenged, Carl went back to being as normal and kind of a kid as he could be. Granted, he had serious PTSD, but he tried to be decent. Meanwhile, Clementine extorts, murders, and steals just because it suits her. For no greater cause than herself.
what is her reaction if you tell them she is a traitor? I said she was a friend and that was kind of a way to redeem yourself in Clem's eyes a bit.
You mean the people who killed everyone in Prescott? I am sure nothing bad will happen to someone who ran away from them...keep telling yourself that. Also...didn't Carl start the Whisper War for some pussy?
Carl did start the Whisper War for pussy, and that's pretty close to when I stopped reading the comic. He got SHIT after the time skip for sure. I'm mostly talking about Carl during the Savior arc.
Yeah, something bad probably would happen to Clem. But there's no reason to think it's child rape. And her life is much less valuable than that of Kate's to me. Especially when one considers Clementine's impenetrable plot armor, and the fanboy army that would march if anything TOO horrific happened to her.
So you concede then as I just shot your boy Carl down in flames..also when I play the game I ignore the fanboy thing and think what would actually happen.
.
I do read the comics; I'm all caught up. Telltale isn't making Clem's brutality the only point, but they are making it a point. For one, we have no clue what Clem went through in the 2-year time jump, especially while a part of The New Frontier; they may have tortured her or they might have done things worse than torture. We just don't know.
The Saviors subjected Rick's group after the Alexandrians murdered a ton of the Saviors. What would you have done? Not punish them? You might say what Negan did to Glenn was punishment enough, but was it really? I say they got off easy.
With your logic, you could say the Saviors were defending themselves against Rick's group. It doesn't even matter if Carl wanted to avenge Glenn or think it was the right thing to do, he sill committed murder(s), in what would be considered the first degree. Hell, you can even classify Carl as being a mass-murderer.
He was being edgy as shit about Eugene, was he not? What he said about Eugene was absolutely true, even if it sounds wrong to say. Just like Clem's edginess.
No. I concede that current Carl is shitty. The Carl I actually liked and have been referring to and comparing Clementine to was not... I don't concede the argument.
They aren't making it much of a point. If they were, people would talk about it outside of the moment she's brutal. Like Kenny in S2. They made his sanity a point by having people have genuine and valid opinions on his sanity, and having them express those opinions outside of the direct moment it became relevant.
The Saviors subjected Rick's group to that death by attrition after Rick's group killed a couple of Saviors to defend themselves from a death by attrition. Also, are you defending The Saviors? Why? What does this have to do with you defending Clementine? What? Are you trying to argue that Carl didn't have reason to go and shoot up the Savior's compound? Because he did.
They attacked Rick's group first. They were defending themselves eventually, but that's because they were eventually in legit war. Caused by their actions. And before you compare that to Eli, no, Eli putting three bad bullets in his box of bullets is not an attack. He did not deserve what came to him.
Oh, he was talking about Eugene in that scene? Even then, he had more reason to be mean to Eugene than Clem had to be mean to Eli or Javi. Eugene had been leading Abraham and Rosita on a death march around the USA, and had wrapped up Rick's group in his lie as well. Eli gave Clem a box of mostly working bullets. Javi did literally nothing to Clem, and Clem extorted from him.
Sure, it's not a huge point, but here and there it's mentioned. Well, only Javier, really. Javi says (Determinantly) "You do have a temper sometimes", after the gun went off. If you don't defend Clem, after she kills Eli, Eleanor says "there's something cold behind her eyes." Honestly, do you think people really give a shit if you kill this far into the apocalypse? Are people really going to judge you when it's extremely likely that almost everyone has at least murdered someone, in cold blood, at least once? I really don't think so.
But did he really? Yes, Negan killed Glenn, but Rick and co. killed dozens of the saviors and as much as it sucks to see Glenn go, it was a light punishment. Also, I'm not defending the saviors so much as seeing an unjustifiable mass murder and calling it out. It wasn't justified. At all.
Did they really attack Rick's group first? You sure? Rick made the deal with the Hilltop and didn't realize how in over his head he was when he made it. I'm 99% sure Rick attacked the saviors first. I agree, Carl did have every right to call out Eugene, he told the truth (at the time). Clem gave Javi a chance to leave her right when they first met but he decided he wanted her help instead. The least he can do is defend her while she is helping him.
I do think people give a shit if you kill an innocent person in an otherwise peaceful community like Prescott.
Again, all of those things Javi and Elanor said are pretty much right as she does those evil things. Nobody ever makes it a point to go out of their way to bring it up to you. Nobody ever reacts to her as if she's done these evil things. I am going to judge because most people are likely to have murdered in self defense, or for other reasons, but not because of a perceived in the past slight.
The Saviors were sentencing Alexandria to a slow death. They were taking half of their things every week. And Glenn's horrific death was way over the line, and heartless. The Saviors that Rick and co killed were all attempting to take half of their things. That could lead to anybody in the place dying because they didn't have supplies they would have had otherwise. Stealing is effectively an attack in this universe. It's not like in our world where you can go to the grocery store and pick up a new bottle of meds. In the apocalypse, if someone steals your food or medicine or guns or anything, they are decreasing the chance that you can save one of your own when you might need whatever it was that was stolen.
Okay, maybe Rick and co did attack first, but even if they did, it was only a matter of time before Negan and co found Alexandria, and did what they did to Hilltop. TBH I honestly don't remember which group attacked first, but I'm 100% sure that it doesn't matter. Regardless of who attacked first, Rick and co attacked knowing that the Saviors acting in the way they continued to act was a threat to Alexandria's continued survival, justifying what they did. Meanwhile, Eli living or dying did not impact Clementine's future ability to live, yet she still pulled that trigger over and over again.
Obviously, people will care if you kill someone, but definitely not like today's day and age.
Evil is a strong word. She might have killed a guy in cold blood, but what she did was not evil. Especially it being an accident.
Again, and I'll keep saying this, Rick and co. attacked the Saviors first, thus Negan and his men were justified in doing what they were doing to Alexandria. Negan didn't take the Alexandrians food because he didn't want them to starve to death. I understand stealing is terrible for other survivors in this world, but it's better than just killing everyone, which Rick and co. would have done to the Saviors if they had the chance at the time.
How do you know Negan would have found Alexandria? He didn't know it existed for 2 years, what makes you think he would have found it anytime soon? Why should killing someone impact your future ability to live in an apocalypse?
People care about innocent deaths just as much as they ever have. And that guy was innocent.
Evil is a strong word. And apt. Again, you can't call it an accident when you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. It's hard to act surprised when a bullet flies out of the gun. Even then, accidental or not, what Clem did was 2nd degree murder. Not manslaughter. Murder. And Clem didn't give a fuck. She was just immediately like, "get me out of this situation Javi. NOW."
Not when the people being killed are causing deaths by attrition to literally every other civilization in the area. Negan was keeping them alive as long as it suited him. Once they ran out of medicine to find in any place nearby, do you think that he just wouldn't have stolen anything? No, he would have eaten into their food, and he would do it again and again until Alexandria either fell or found something else to give him. He was sucking them dry.
Because Negan's scouting parties were practically outside of Rick's doors as soon as they met Hilltop.
I didn't feel bad shooting Conrad. I had sympathy for him b/c of his fragile state due to Francine's death, but once he took Gabe hostage i said, "that's it. He's not going to threaten my family to get what he wants. I don't care how emotionally scarred he may right now".
Also, i thought that if i didn't kill him he might somehow kill Gabe in the process anyway.
Javi says "She's a liar, that's what! Told us a bunch of tall-tales, tried to pull us into her shit."
Clem responds with... I don't really know what to call it. A look of guilt maybe? Distress? Hurt?
After this she looks down and stretches her lips to a sort of half-smile like she isn't really faulting him for it. I'd get a screenshot for it, but I'm not playing through an hour just to get it. Thanks again for removing the rewind, TellTale.
Yeah. I gave myself up to The New Frontier back at Prescott for Francine, seeing as how this crap was kind of Javier's fault. And then when the twist of the century happens that they plan to straight up kill you, Clementine saves you and on the road Conrad flips his shit and blames you regardless, which definitely pissed me off. Him bringing up Javi's past life and ignoring the fact his niece died, his close friend was shot and his nephew was probably still grieving didn't help.
I could have forgiven that over time as an emotional outburst, fine. But him pulling that stunt in the tunnels against Clem and Gabe did it for me. I just didn't care at that point.
We're not even in a zombie apocalypse and people already talk about how hot Clementine is.
Trust me, there would be someone like that. If they can slaughter people, i'm sure they can also rape a 13 years old girl.
So yeah. I treat the situation like i'm Javier and i can only guess what's going to happen. Even though Kate's life is very valuable for Javier, that doesn't mean he has to walk on people's corpses just to save her. And accept a plan of a ticking bomb that is threatening your nephew.
Kate is hurt because Now Frontier shot Mariana. Your response to this? Sell a kid to them, with a chance they will kill her too.
Oh by the way, about that shaming part. I wasn't talking about me, i was talking about Clementine. I'm okay with people having different opinions.
Maybe because her story isn't over yet, and you don't even give her a chance at redemption?
Who is Clem to Javier? Well, maybe from starters - a person. And a kid. You talk about how Clem 'killed a person boohoo', and then you ignore the fact selling out Clem is a bad thing to do. She might die and not in a painless way like that guy.
I didn't forget that Clem killed that guy. I took it into the account. I still consider her a trustworthy character, even though i see that she can lose control of the situation.
Even if you dont think she is trustworthy, she is still a person, and a kid, who did nothing to you.
Lol yeah, there are freaks on the internet. A lot of freaks on the internet. Higher proportion of freaks on the internet than there are in real life, most would say.
Yeah there'd be someone willing to do something so awful, but it's doubtful that they'd come together to make a community as strong as The New Frontier, when one of their policies is that they're okay with raping children. Murder and rape are two entirely different crimes based on different emotions. Just because someone does one does not mean they'll do the other. Ask any random thug or murderer what they think about rape. 90% of them are gonna call it the evilest shit that ever existed. Rapists don't live through prison sentences more than most other types of offenders.
I treat the situation like I'm Javier, and I can only guess what's gonna happen. We either show up with nothing and beg, or we trade them something to save one of the few people left that matters to me. Especially when what we're giving them is a murderer who tried to extort something from me which has ensured my livelihood for a good while now. I'm perfectly happy trading one life for another in those conditions. Yeah, that guy is a cunt who threatened my nephew, but I'm not buying into him. I'm buying into the plan that at least lets us show up with SOMETHING we can offer TNF, to save someone I love.
You think Lee would've said no, if he could have let Duck die, in order to save Clementine? What if Duck was a cold hearted murderer, and a thief, on top of being annoying? Lee would have dropped Duck less than a second in order to save Clem. My Javier would drop Clem to save Kate.