A drug addicted doctor; he was getting high off of their medication -- it might have been a personal kill, but it drastically increased survivabilty for Richmond (no longer wasted medicine).
I think people are forgetting that Lee murdered a man (before the apocalypse) for sleeping with his wife. Why are you guys criticizing Clem for killing people for better reasons than when Lee was convicted for murder? Sure, in your eyes the people Clem has killed haven't been justified, but you guys are praising Lee like he's an angel.
I love Lee; I always will, but you need to remember the shit he did in the apocalypse to keep people alive. He would be proud of Clem, no questions asked.
i think Lee would be dissapointed in her because every time Lee killed someone in season 1 he had a reason:
Helping to kill Larry: He had a… more heart attack and they dint have any proper medicine to save him.
Andy/Danny: They were Cannibals who tried to murder the group and eat them .
The stranger: He kidnapped Clementine and tried to kill him.
The save lots Bandits: They attacked Lee s group.
while in ANF:
Eli: GIV ME BULLITS Thut Wurk BOI ´´Points gun at eli assuming that none of the bullets worked and shoots him´´.
Lingard: I WILL KILL YOU FOR INFORMATION INSTEAD OF WAITING FOR YOU TO ACTUALLY BE SOBER AND THINKING CLEARLY!
My Lee wouldn't be ashamed, but he'll be disappointed with some of the decisions Clementine makes this season (like shooting Eli and wanting to kill Dr. Lingard for information even though my Javier killed him anyway).
This question really depends on the type of Lee you developed not everybody had the same Lee. Much of Lee's personality was left open to the… more player. Many people had the soft Lee who always made the "good" choices and always said the right thing at the right time. I went a darker route for my Lee where he started as a pretty good guy trying to atone for what he did before the apocalypse but as the game went on the apocalypse messed him up a bit and he realized that sometimes it is necessary to make the hard decisions to survive and that always being the good person can be dangerous.
It annoys me how so many people view the decisions in these games as black and white "Oh this is the good choice," and "Oh this is the evil choice." "Make these choices to get the good ending."
The vast majority of the choices in these games are gray. There really isn't a right or wrong choice.
Such as whether or not to steal from the car in S1. If you ste… [view original content]
My Lee would be proud that he helped provide her the skills to have survived as long as she has. As far as her different personality/values, I think he would also understand that the things she's had to see and deal with at such a young age would more than likely have changed her especially with him not around for so long. He certainly wouldn't be happy with certain aspects of what she's become but he would understand.
Doesn't Clem kill the stranger when he gets the upper hands on Lee's upper neck?
This is her first kill though it's dependant on how Lee's scuffle with Mr. Stranger goes.
But his reasoning is determinant, I'm pretty sure that in almost every choice over a person's life, Lee is asked by a character to give a justification for his actions and the player can choose which it was, so it's not automatically good reasoning.
I'd also argue in certain cases he didn't exactly have good reason:
Chopping David's leg off, which caused him to bleed to death, after stating that he didn't want it cut off (granted, it was die or die situation).
Shooting Jolene after he and Danny trespassed and rummaged around her camp.
Helping Kenny kill Larry, only doing so out of the assumption that he was dead and not even attempting to save him.
Shooting Beatrice out of the assumption that she wants to die because of her bite.
Dropping Ben for making a deal with the bandits (which actually what ensured the group's safety for a while) or because Kenny wants him dead.
I 110% agree, especially with the "good ending & choices" part. There is no right and wrong anymore. You do what YOU think is right. YOU have your own reasoning. I'm tired of people claiming endings such as Leaving with Kenny or David & Gabe dying the "Evil" ending. Why? Because you liked them or they're family?
I liked Kenny, but in my first playthrough I killed him because he was out of control and it felt like a fitting end to his character. I had my reasonings. Maybe yours might be different, who knows?
I enjoyed the Gabe and David dying ending. In fact, it might be my most favored ending this season. Now, I didn't hate David or Gabe, I actually liked David, but I enjoyed this ending because it was emotional. That's my reasoning.
This question really depends on the type of Lee you developed not everybody had the same Lee. Much of Lee's personality was left open to the… more player. Many people had the soft Lee who always made the "good" choices and always said the right thing at the right time. I went a darker route for my Lee where he started as a pretty good guy trying to atone for what he did before the apocalypse but as the game went on the apocalypse messed him up a bit and he realized that sometimes it is necessary to make the hard decisions to survive and that always being the good person can be dangerous.
It annoys me how so many people view the decisions in these games as black and white "Oh this is the good choice," and "Oh this is the evil choice." "Make these choices to get the good ending."
The vast majority of the choices in these games are gray. There really isn't a right or wrong choice.
Such as whether or not to steal from the car in S1. If you ste… [view original content]
I enjoyed the Gabe and David dying ending. In fact, it might be my most favored ending this season. Now, I didn't hate David or Gabe, I actually liked David, but I enjoyed this ending because it was emotional. That's my reasoning.
I enjoyed a similar choice in season 2. I Actually prefer Alvin dying at the end of episode 2. I was building up a hardened Clementine like in season 3 who refuses to surrender and give up when another option for survival is available. I found Alvin's episode 2 death far more emotional and for me it built up more hatred for Carver.
I 110% agree, especially with the "good ending & choices" part. There is no right and wrong anymore. You do what YOU think is right. YOU… more have your own reasoning. I'm tired of people claiming endings such as Leaving with Kenny or David & Gabe dying the "Evil" ending. Why? Because you liked them or they're family?
I liked Kenny, but in my first playthrough I killed him because he was out of control and it felt like a fitting end to his character. I had my reasonings. Maybe yours might be different, who knows?
I enjoyed the Gabe and David dying ending. In fact, it might be my most favored ending this season. Now, I didn't hate David or Gabe, I actually liked David, but I enjoyed this ending because it was emotional. That's my reasoning.
I think people are forgetting that Lee murdered a man (before the apocalypse) for sleeping with his wife. Why are you guys criticizing Clem … morefor killing people for better reasons than when Lee was convicted for murder? Sure, in your eyes the people Clem has killed haven't been justified, but you guys are praising Lee like he's an angel.
I love Lee; I always will, but you need to remember the shit he did in the apocalypse to keep people alive. He would be proud of Clem, no questions asked.
I don’t think Clem is OOC based on what happened with Carver.
That’s part of the reason why I don’t like Season 2. It’s too cold, none of the characters are as likable, and Clem is faced with a moral dilemma as Carver’s behavior influences her own, and it’s implied that she takes a lot of inspiration from him (watching his face be smashed in, burying her hatchet in Sarita’s skull, possibly agreeing with him when he says people need to know their place, etc.)
My point is I don’t think they screwed up Clem in Season 3 based on what I saw in Season 2. She was already becoming hard and less affectionate toward other people. It’s Season 2’s fault that she took that turn.
Lee acknowledges that that was a mistake, showed some form of remorse for the entire situation, and depending on your choices, took steps to do better where he could.
Clementine immediately tries to cover it up by asking a guy she tried to rob to lie, either gets mad because "you can't trust anyone" or jokes about how she didn't peg him as someone who'd do that for her, and then it's just kinda forgotten about with little to no indication that she's consciously trying to avoid doing something like that again.
I saw this thread flying around for a while now and initially tried to avoid it. However, since it's back, I suppose I can donate something even if I don't really have the mindset for it.
Yes, Lee would probably be a little disappointed in just how reckless and even feckless she has become in conducting herself.
Lee acknowledges that that was a mistake, showed some form of remorse for the entire situation, and depending on your choices, took steps to… more do better where he could.
Clementine immediately tries to cover it up by asking a guy she tried to rob to lie, either gets mad because "you can't trust anyone" or jokes about how she didn't peg him as someone who'd do that for her, and then it's just kinda forgotten about with little to no indication that she's consciously trying to avoid doing something like that again.
Thing is, we also had the option to develop Clementine, and that was tossed aside in favor of generic protagonist who's Spanish but doesn't speak Spanish but yay. So the Lee I played as would be wondering wtf about as hard as I was throughout ANF.
I played Lee instead of seeing someone else's idea of him from the perspective of an idiot, so yea, everything I know about Lee suggests he'd be as ashamed as I am.
I don't think he'd be. We all know Lee considered Clem as his own. If you ask me, she's just going through a phase right now, trying to find herself and somewhere to belong. However, the world she's in, it's pretty hard to be comfortable and take time finding yourself. So everyone just goes with the flow and try to survive. No one really judges people based on how they look anymore, it's all about your aura and the feel you give off. So I'd imagine if Lee had the chance to see to Clem once more, she'll still be his sweet pea. He'd understand what made her this way.
Javi's a good guy. Clem's a good girl. But Clem has also been in and out of groups and she's probably lost a lot of her hope in humanity, and I don't blame her at all. Season 2 was rough as hell and everyone pretty much let her down - which is why I chose to let her go off alone. I think, after everything she's seen, she would definitely grow rougher and coarse. And that's why we need someone like Javi who is just a generic "good guy", because Clem needs to be reminded of her own goodness.
Next season you'll play as her and you can develop her the way you want, but I don't blame Telltale for trying another route just this once. Clem is the heart of the game, but that doesn't mean we have to play as her every season. We needed to see a functional family so that Clem could have hope again.
Thing is, we also had the option to develop Clementine, and that was tossed aside in favor of generic protagonist who's Spanish but doesn't speak Spanish but yay. So the Lee I played as would be wondering wtf about as hard as I was throughout ANF.
Here's my take on it:
Javi's a good guy. Clem's a good girl. But Clem has also been in and out of groups and she's probably lost a lot of… more her hope in humanity, and I don't blame her at all. Season 2 was rough as hell and everyone pretty much let her down - which is why I chose to let her go off alone. I think, after everything she's seen, she would definitely grow rougher and coarse. And that's why we need someone like Javi who is just a generic "good guy", because Clem needs to be reminded of her own goodness.
Next season you'll play as her and you can develop her the way you want, but I don't blame Telltale for trying another route just this once. Clem is the heart of the game, but that doesn't mean we have to play as her every season. We needed to see a functional family so that Clem could have hope again.
I get that, it was my first reasoning when I went through the first two episodes. Here's my thing though, the timeskip did nothing but negate all we did through the first two seasons. At least playing as her in season 2, we were able to put into action the influence we felt we would have had with the way we behaved in season 1. By relegating her to a minor side character with a predetermined demeanor rather than the one we spent two games fleshing out, it completely negates everything we've done beforehand. To say its a chance to see her from another perspective is borderline insulting when we're simply seeing someone else's interpretation of a character we supposedly shaped.
Add to the fact that she shows up halfway through the first episode, and she didn't appear until almost the end of the third episode for the majority of us, I don't even remember how much of a part she played on episode 4 but she wasn't even playable in the last episode, all of this took place over the course of days. This idiot who's too incompetent to recognize a trailer full of fresh pudding that he fucking loves, whose incompetence leads directly to the death of his niece, is the one man who can show Clementine it's ok to trust people? This entire family should have been dead long before the game even started if he was the one making the calls. And regardless of whether or not you sold her out at every chance you could, in the same way you could have played Lee as an asshole, her brief appearances with him during this period of a few days shaped her as a person? This small amount of time with Xavier influence her to the point that she now believes in people again? She shouldn't make it past the first episode of the next season if Xavier is the standard she sets for herself. Xavier was a horrible character who simply had no business being alive at this point in the timeline, the entire game played out like a bad fan fiction. Had the characters and story been handled better, it could have worked, but as it is it just comes off as lazy and a clear attempt to distance itself from the previous games so that it can appeal to a nonexistent audience.
Here's my take on it:
Javi's a good guy. Clem's a good girl. But Clem has also been in and out of groups and she's probably lost a lot of… more her hope in humanity, and I don't blame her at all. Season 2 was rough as hell and everyone pretty much let her down - which is why I chose to let her go off alone. I think, after everything she's seen, she would definitely grow rougher and coarse. And that's why we need someone like Javi who is just a generic "good guy", because Clem needs to be reminded of her own goodness.
Next season you'll play as her and you can develop her the way you want, but I don't blame Telltale for trying another route just this once. Clem is the heart of the game, but that doesn't mean we have to play as her every season. We needed to see a functional family so that Clem could have hope again.
We needed to see a functional family so that Clem could have hope again.
Which is one of the reasons the ending where Gabe dies kinda ticks me off when you really think about it.
Sure, it might be objectively be a better handled sendoff compared to Kate and maybe David for some, but when you really take the context of what the message of the game from Clementine's point of view was apparently supposed to be(according to the developers and @Huntress, at least), the glorified spinoff-esque nature of ANF, what his character arc was supposed to be about, and the really oddly timed precedence on choices/relationships over what actually makes sense in context, it's a thematic and tonal disarray in hindsight and, for some, on the offset.
And just to be blunt here, it will never not feel like a multilayered copout to me.
In S2 they gave you the option of becoming hardened and less affectionate. You got to chose how you wanted your Clementine to act. In S3 they just said "Fuck it! She had some hard times of screen sucks to suck!" What pisses me off is technically you could have it were your Clementine hasn't directly killed a single living person all the way through S1 and S2. It was cool how Telltale gave you the option of doing that, remaining that hope that theirs still a chance things could go back to the way they were. But if you wanted to continue that in S3 NOPE! "Fuck it! She had some hard times of screen sucks to suck!" After S2 everyone's Clementine should act AT LEAST a little different based on your past season's choices but telltale doesn't care.
Even if Clementine was missing and you needed to know were she was? Almost everyone would've killed Lingard if you replace Aj with Clem and replace Clem with Lee in this situation.
It's crazy how you can play through all of S1 and 2 and not kill a single person and then S3 she kills people on accident and doesn't feel bad and wants to continue shooting/killing the bandits at the end of ANF ep1.
Because instead of taking responsibility for the mistake her first reaction is to not only lie about it but then get someone else to lie for… more her.
For me, that was the first time she has ever killed a person before so her reaction is completely out of character and she feels no remorse or guilt about what she's done. That is completely unacceptable.
Comments
A drug addicted doctor; he was getting high off of their medication -- it might have been a personal kill, but it drastically increased survivabilty for Richmond (no longer wasted medicine).
I think people are forgetting that Lee murdered a man (before the apocalypse) for sleeping with his wife. Why are you guys criticizing Clem for killing people for better reasons than when Lee was convicted for murder? Sure, in your eyes the people Clem has killed haven't been justified, but you guys are praising Lee like he's an angel.
I love Lee; I always will, but you need to remember the shit he did in the apocalypse to keep people alive. He would be proud of Clem, no questions asked.
I don't care what you have to say because you're a troll.
My Lee wouldn't be ashamed, but he'll be disappointed with some of the decisions Clementine makes this season (like shooting Eli and wanting to kill Dr. Lingard for information even though my Javier killed him anyway).
So because you disagree with me I'm a troll?
My Lee would actually be proud. He was a cruel man. Kenny would be disappointed as hell though.
Yes, all you do is making nonsensical points.
Not understand why people dislike when someone murders someone else is pretty nonsensical imo
Actually when Lee killed someone he had good reasoning behind it but Clem s reasons for Killing in New frontier were just retarded.
It's just a game, dude
I don't really think Lee would have any right to judge considering he killed a man before the world went to shit.
My Lee would be proud that he helped provide her the skills to have survived as long as she has. As far as her different personality/values, I think he would also understand that the things she's had to see and deal with at such a young age would more than likely have changed her especially with him not around for so long. He certainly wouldn't be happy with certain aspects of what she's become but he would understand.
I don't think so because she is doing it fot AJ
Clem: (at some stranger) I'LL FUCKING SHOOT YOUR MOTHERFUCKING BALLS OFF
Ghost Lee: Goddammit Clem, what did I say about shooting people in the balls!?!?
Then you're getting mad at me why?
Well, I think he'd be more DISAPPOINTED that Clem's becoming more of a sociopath than ashamed.
Doesn't Clem kill the stranger when he gets the upper hands on Lee's upper neck?
This is her first kill though it's dependant on how Lee's scuffle with Mr. Stranger goes.
She only determinantly kills him if Lee doesn't win the fight, the only times Clementine can kill people are:
But his reasoning is determinant, I'm pretty sure that in almost every choice over a person's life, Lee is asked by a character to give a justification for his actions and the player can choose which it was, so it's not automatically good reasoning.
I'd also argue in certain cases he didn't exactly have good reason:
I 110% agree, especially with the "good ending & choices" part. There is no right and wrong anymore. You do what YOU think is right. YOU have your own reasoning. I'm tired of people claiming endings such as Leaving with Kenny or David & Gabe dying the "Evil" ending. Why? Because you liked them or they're family?
I liked Kenny, but in my first playthrough I killed him because he was out of control and it felt like a fitting end to his character. I had my reasonings. Maybe yours might be different, who knows?
I enjoyed the Gabe and David dying ending. In fact, it might be my most favored ending this season. Now, I didn't hate David or Gabe, I actually liked David, but I enjoyed this ending because it was emotional. That's my reasoning.
I enjoyed a similar choice in season 2. I Actually prefer Alvin dying at the end of episode 2. I was building up a hardened Clementine like in season 3 who refuses to surrender and give up when another option for survival is available. I found Alvin's episode 2 death far more emotional and for me it built up more hatred for Carver.
Exactly, Lee wasn't St. Everyman even if you try to pick the *best options.
*Subjective of course. Personally, I consider killing the cannibals to be the best and most noble option.
No, I think he’d understand. You forget that the player has the option to make Lee kind of an asshole, too.
I don’t think Clem is OOC based on what happened with Carver.
That’s part of the reason why I don’t like Season 2. It’s too cold, none of the characters are as likable, and Clem is faced with a moral dilemma as Carver’s behavior influences her own, and it’s implied that she takes a lot of inspiration from him (watching his face be smashed in, burying her hatchet in Sarita’s skull, possibly agreeing with him when he says people need to know their place, etc.)
My point is I don’t think they screwed up Clem in Season 3 based on what I saw in Season 2. She was already becoming hard and less affectionate toward other people. It’s Season 2’s fault that she took that turn.
Lee acknowledges that that was a mistake, showed some form of remorse for the entire situation, and depending on your choices, took steps to do better where he could.
Clementine immediately tries to cover it up by asking a guy she tried to rob to lie, either gets mad because "you can't trust anyone" or jokes about how she didn't peg him as someone who'd do that for her, and then it's just kinda forgotten about with little to no indication that she's consciously trying to avoid doing something like that again.
I saw this thread flying around for a while now and initially tried to avoid it. However, since it's back, I suppose I can donate something even if I don't really have the mindset for it.
Yes, Lee would probably be a little disappointed in just how reckless and even feckless she has become in conducting herself.
Yes, he would be.
Thing is, we also had the option to develop Clementine, and that was tossed aside in favor of generic protagonist who's Spanish but doesn't speak Spanish but yay. So the Lee I played as would be wondering wtf about as hard as I was throughout ANF.
I played Lee instead of seeing someone else's idea of him from the perspective of an idiot, so yea, everything I know about Lee suggests he'd be as ashamed as I am.
I don't think he'd be. We all know Lee considered Clem as his own. If you ask me, she's just going through a phase right now, trying to find herself and somewhere to belong. However, the world she's in, it's pretty hard to be comfortable and take time finding yourself. So everyone just goes with the flow and try to survive. No one really judges people based on how they look anymore, it's all about your aura and the feel you give off. So I'd imagine if Lee had the chance to see to Clem once more, she'll still be his sweet pea. He'd understand what made her this way.
Here's my take on it:
Javi's a good guy. Clem's a good girl. But Clem has also been in and out of groups and she's probably lost a lot of her hope in humanity, and I don't blame her at all. Season 2 was rough as hell and everyone pretty much let her down - which is why I chose to let her go off alone. I think, after everything she's seen, she would definitely grow rougher and coarse. And that's why we need someone like Javi who is just a generic "good guy", because Clem needs to be reminded of her own goodness.
Next season you'll play as her and you can develop her the way you want, but I don't blame Telltale for trying another route just this once. Clem is the heart of the game, but that doesn't mean we have to play as her every season. We needed to see a functional family so that Clem could have hope again.
Which is one of the reasons the ending where Gabe dies kinda ticks me off when you really think about it.
I get that, it was my first reasoning when I went through the first two episodes. Here's my thing though, the timeskip did nothing but negate all we did through the first two seasons. At least playing as her in season 2, we were able to put into action the influence we felt we would have had with the way we behaved in season 1. By relegating her to a minor side character with a predetermined demeanor rather than the one we spent two games fleshing out, it completely negates everything we've done beforehand. To say its a chance to see her from another perspective is borderline insulting when we're simply seeing someone else's interpretation of a character we supposedly shaped.
Add to the fact that she shows up halfway through the first episode, and she didn't appear until almost the end of the third episode for the majority of us, I don't even remember how much of a part she played on episode 4 but she wasn't even playable in the last episode, all of this took place over the course of days. This idiot who's too incompetent to recognize a trailer full of fresh pudding that he fucking loves, whose incompetence leads directly to the death of his niece, is the one man who can show Clementine it's ok to trust people? This entire family should have been dead long before the game even started if he was the one making the calls. And regardless of whether or not you sold her out at every chance you could, in the same way you could have played Lee as an asshole, her brief appearances with him during this period of a few days shaped her as a person? This small amount of time with Xavier influence her to the point that she now believes in people again? She shouldn't make it past the first episode of the next season if Xavier is the standard she sets for herself. Xavier was a horrible character who simply had no business being alive at this point in the timeline, the entire game played out like a bad fan fiction. Had the characters and story been handled better, it could have worked, but as it is it just comes off as lazy and a clear attempt to distance itself from the previous games so that it can appeal to a nonexistent audience.
But its the only good thing that came out of the game, dabig
Eh, not really.
Sure, it might be objectively be a better handled sendoff compared to Kate and maybe David for some, but when you really take the context of what the message of the game from Clementine's point of view was apparently supposed to be(according to the developers and @Huntress, at least), the glorified spinoff-esque nature of ANF, what his character arc was supposed to be about, and the really oddly timed precedence on choices/relationships over what actually makes sense in context, it's a thematic and tonal disarray in hindsight and, for some, on the offset.
And just to be blunt here, it will never not feel like a multilayered copout to me.
In S2 they gave you the option of becoming hardened and less affectionate. You got to chose how you wanted your Clementine to act. In S3 they just said "Fuck it! She had some hard times of screen sucks to suck!" What pisses me off is technically you could have it were your Clementine hasn't directly killed a single living person all the way through S1 and S2. It was cool how Telltale gave you the option of doing that, remaining that hope that theirs still a chance things could go back to the way they were. But if you wanted to continue that in S3 NOPE! "Fuck it! She had some hard times of screen sucks to suck!" After S2 everyone's Clementine should act AT LEAST a little different based on your past season's choices but telltale doesn't care.
Even if Clementine was missing and you needed to know were she was? Almost everyone would've killed Lingard if you replace Aj with Clem and replace Clem with Lee in this situation.
It's crazy how you can play through all of S1 and 2 and not kill a single person and then S3 she kills people on accident and doesn't feel bad and wants to continue shooting/killing the bandits at the end of ANF ep1.