Look this is coming from someone who loved John and wanted to really show the world he can change for the better, and I loved the vigilante side. I thought the first half of working with "Joker" was excellent but also knew that the John I wanted just wasn't in the cards after the first encounter with his new persona. He was rash, violent, and wanted people to suffer. The John I had hopes for wasn't there from the beginning. He was a lost cause, and yet I still wanted to try. I wanted to try so hard. I ruined relationships with allies and former allies just so I can help John become what I and (how I hoped) he wanted to be. That was a mistake from the beginning but that relationship I don't regret.
John's a broken piece to a puzzle that won't fit. No matter how hard you want it to fit and complete the picture it won't; not even mended with tape, it'll just fall apart or won't look how it should. Seeing this John fall farther and farther apart felt natural and heart breaking, and not like a rewritten character. The signs were there from the beginning, and the actions that I made only made things worse. Pouring my heart to John, and telling him that he was my friend and I really cared, and getting replied with "You're the crazy one here if you ever thought that". sting-ed. A lot. Sending him to Arkham and seeing that scene at the end, and having the loop repeat filled me with relief but also dread. That John I saw was never there to begin with, but that doesn't mean it all didn't matter. I still care and even if John says he doesn't. I gave everything up just so that I can still have a "friend" and I paid the price. I wouldn't say I'd do it all again, especially now that Batman has been retired, but I don't regret trying, and I don't think John did either.
Telltale promised 2 different episodes with 2 different Jokers. Vigilante Joker even though he became a bad guy was still a very different Joker from the one we got in villian version of the episode.
Lying and falling flatter than a pancake is claiming an episode is so big it needs to be split in two, saying there are 42 starting points, choices from the past season will carry over, and you play as 2 different protagonist when in reality the episode is too small to be split in two, there are no really starting points and that ones that are considered starting points are really only 4, past season choices didnt make an impact, and you play as primarily one protagonist, and play as the other for 3 minutes.
I know what telltale did before but this time we got screenshots and trailers and promises that fell flatter than a pancake. I thought they changed for once.That this is the breakthrough
I haven't yet read this thread or anything after finishing the vigilante route, I'll do that after I've also played the villain route. I swore I wouldn't play that but I just have to.. created a save file for the villain path while waiting for the ep 5 update, couldn't do it any other way than moving in on Harley on the bridge while John was talking to her.. still couldn't be mean to John. But now that I just minutes ago finished the vigilante route I want to gather my thoughts.
About Harley: Was surprised to see her actually working with the Agency, told her that she's Waller's puppet, because that's what she became. Was happy to see her again though, also told her John's over her.. I put her in cuffs and told her she's going to prison.
About Waller: I really loved every scene with her. We parted as enemies, but I understand her more now. How could I not, when I also went to grey area with John because of how much I still care for him. I was ready to do anything to help him..
About Gordon: Man was I happy to see him again! I love him so much! We were never in bad terms, not even when he tried to arrest Bruce, I really understood him back then. I told him I missed the old days too, because I do. I'm such a hypocrite just having smoked myself but I wasn't happy seeing him smoke again, he also had his nicotine patch on too, lol.
About Catwoman: What's there to say really.. she wasn't much in my playthrough at least, did we even really speak..? I threw her under the bus to keep my cover so she was pissed. I wasn't romantic with her this time, wanted to keep her as a friend. When the choice was given about Avesta or Catwoman I chose Avesta. I would have wanted to pick both of them but yeah, that wasn't possible. I thought she could handle herself, but now it says that she's forced to work with the Agency. I don't like that at all..
About Tiffany: I chose not to bring her with me, wanted her to stay in the Batcave because of Lucius, I wanted to keep her safe. Was surprised to find out she killed Riddler, but because I can understand her need for revenge I took her under my wing. Also because I wanted to be able to do that with John no matter what, it would have been hypocritical of me not to. So that's why I didn't want to put her in prison, and I decided to try and help her.
About Avesta: Happy to find out she was good after all! I was very skeptical of her.. I offered her a job at Wayne Enterprises and defended her against Waller, decided to call her instead of Gordon, which I also wanted to do, but I chose her because she was closer to Waller so I thought she would be able to provide more information about her. She's been so supporting all the way through anyway, following Bruce's lead, I love her!
About Alfred: Boy oh boy.. I can understand him wanting to leave but that really broke my heart. I wasn't expecting that at all. But it's his decision isn't it, he got rid of his tremor so that's good. But I'm still shocked.. I chose to be Batman because I don't think Bruce would ever be able to give that up since he really is that messed up.. he just can't give up being Batman and fighting crime. I hope Alfred will be happy.. that was so very difficult to go through.
About John: No matter how much I wanted to be able to save him I have to say, when that epic last fight was going on the more I came to realize that I was okay with how it all went down. That scene where him and Alfred were talking in the alley was awesome. And I just loved fighting beside him. But the thing still is, I was left feeling cold.. I wanted more scenes with him, the old John, that's what I'm disappointed about. Anthony Ingruber was amazing as always, but I really wanted more scenes. I wanted them to talk more, a lot more! I feel like I never really had a chance to have a proper conversation about everything with him. That Arkham scene at the end left me wanting more, what were they going to say?!? I still told him I was his friend.. and he thinks Bruce is crazy, well yeah no shit.
I saved Willy because the agent was ready to kill. I refused to hand over John to Waller. Still seems I'm struggling to call him the Joker.. going to play the villain route now!
Edit. Btw I was so hyped I played sitting on the carpet right in front of the tv, still will haha.
Anyone who thought they could genuinely turn John in to a good guy is naive. John Doe is a violent, schizophrenic psychopath, and there's nothing you can do to change that. John wanted to be a hero like Batman, but his mental inner workings were incompatible with Batman's moral code, and in the end it pushed him to the point where it completely shattered his mind and caused him to have a psychotic breakdown, giving Bruce no other choice but to bring him in.
That doesn't mean you can't sympathize with him though, and at the very least Bruce can help keep him in check so that he doesn't end up becoming a sadistic mass murderer like he is in the villain path.
I am playing through Vigilante... was always John and I.. made it all about him, never bloody Selina! Couldn't care less about a romance with her.. was all about John for me! ... and we barely got to fight together as a team before he went and nearly blew me up God damn! I just wanted us both to run off into the sunset together
I thought the writing on the wall was there all along. After all, Telltale never referred to him as a good guy or a hero, it was always vigilante-- a person operating outside of the law, taking matters into their own hands and delivering justice on their own terms. It's not necessarily bad, but the problem with vigilante justice is that it isn't weighed against anything other than what the person doing it believes in. In the world of vigilantism, justice is not universally defined, it's in the eye of the beholder. And for John, his idea of 'justice' is... definitely unique.
Anyone who thought they could genuinely turn John in to a good guy is naive. John Doe is a violent, schizophrenic psychopath, and there's no… morething you can do to change that. John wanted to be a hero like Batman, but his mental inner workings were incompatible with Batman's moral code, and in the end it pushed him to the point where it completely shattered his mind and caused him to have a psychotic breakdown, giving Bruce no other choice but to bring him in.
That doesn't mean you can't sympathize with him though, and at the very least Bruce can help keep him in check so that he doesn't end up becoming a sadistic mass murderer like he is in the villain path.
John's idea of justice was very black and white, and ultimately his methods and his views weren't in line with Batman's. As strict as Batman's code may be, his views on justice at least have some shades of grey to them, and he's potentially willing to give people a chance to redeem themselves if they're willing to take it.
I thought the writing on the wall was there all along. After all, Telltale never referred to him as a good guy or a hero, it was always vigi… morelante-- a person operating outside of the law, taking matters into their own hands and delivering justice on their own terms. It's not necessarily bad, but the problem with vigilante justice is that it isn't weighed against anything other than what the person doing it believes in. In the world of vigilantism, justice is not universally defined, it's in the eye of the beholder. And for John, his idea of 'justice' is... definitely unique.
I know players will dump on Telltale for this no matter what, but I just can't get angry with the outcome(s) of John's story. I feel there's always been an element of Greek tragedy to Batman and his rogue gallery. Regardless of your choices, Harvey Dent will become Two-Face. Regardless of your choices, John will become The Joker. It's not so much a case of "your decisions never matter," but maintaining the melancholic aura of these characters.
However, the one thing that the universe DOESN'T have power over is your personal relationship with the villains. My Bruce remained a loyal friend to Harvey right to the bitter end; the same with Joker. The stars might dictate who becomes a hero or a monster, but their eyes can't spot everything that happens beneath them. Suffice to say, my version of Bruce visited Joker at Arkham, and Joker was overjoyed to see him. I'm very grateful Telltale included that scene, if only to suggest that, even if they're enemies on the battlefield, the Joker will always have that one consolation knowing he actually had a GENUINE friend at some point in his otherwise dark and miserable life.
That's what I take from the game, anyway. I've only just finished, and I'm still processing it.
One of my problems with the route was that none of the dialogue options seemed to really... Well, confirm we're on his side quite in the way I wanted to, and not enough to stop things.
He was teetering on the edge the whole time, and he needed someone to come right up next to him to hold him steady, calm him down, and pull him back supportively, but not to stand away from the edge he was looking at and tell him how wrong the abyss is imo. Because I wanted to tell him that he was totally right, everything he was feeling was the same way I felt, and that we were both turning away from that wrong at the end of this path, together. To be better than the criminals. (Because I really hated Waller pfft.)
I also, really, really, wanted to tell him that I believe him and that I know he didn't kill Riddler, but that it wasn't Waller either and he had to step off! I picked up pretty quickly that it was Tiffany when Bane brought it up, and I wanted to calm Joker down since that seemed to have really set him off, but... It just wasn't an option! Not that I'd want him after Tiff, but things would have definitely turned out differently if he didn't have that hate over being rudely blamed for something he didn't do.
It all just felt more hostile than it had to be.
But the ending, in the office... it had me feel like tearing up. And I'm so glad that being friends was, still an option... In the end...
I never thought I could turn Joker into a goodie goodie. Honestly, I enjoyed the Vigilante route. I expected John to do bad things. I took him down, and that was the right thing to do. Doesn't make it any less heartbreaking for Bruce though. It's sad how the people he cares about and wants to help turn on him.
yeah the vigilante route was very disappointing but oh well, i should know better than to trust telltale lol. at least the other episodes were enjoyable.
Sorry guys but I'm laughing so much at how annoyed you guys are over the Joker relationship. As much as I would of liked Harley's relationship with Bruce to be developed more (cause as stated at the end of episode 5 she even trusts you based on your episode 3 final choice) it was unrealistic though and an idea a lot of you hated on lol. @Kaelthas is right this is karma for a lot of you guys.
Now you know what I felt when I saved Harvey and sided with him all the time, and he ended up as a villain anyway.
NOW YOU KNOW WHAT I FELT. There is a lesson in this. Don't befriend crazy psychopaths with tendencies to blow up things.
Sorry guys but I'm laughing so much at how annoyed you guys are over the Joker relationship. As much as I would of liked Harley's relationsh… moreip with Bruce to be developed more (cause as stated at the end of episode 5 she even trusts you based on your episode 3 final choice) it was unrealistic though and an idea a lot of you hated on lol. @Kaelthas is right this is karma for a lot of you guys.
Look this is coming from someone who loved John and wanted to really show the world he can change for the better, and I loved the vigilante … moreside. I thought the first half of working with "Joker" was excellent but also knew that the John I wanted just wasn't in the cards after the first encounter with his new persona. He was rash, violent, and wanted people to suffer. The John I had hopes for wasn't there from the beginning. He was a lost cause, and yet I still wanted to try. I wanted to try so hard. I ruined relationships with allies and former allies just so I can help John become what I and (how I hoped) he wanted to be. That was a mistake from the beginning but that relationship I don't regret.
John's a broken piece to a puzzle that won't fit. No matter how hard you want it to fit and complete the picture it won't; not even mended with tape, it'll just fall apart or won't look how it should. Seeing this John fall farther and farther apa… [view original content]
Oh my god why isn't anyone getting the point. He wasn't going to turn fully good but he flipped off a nowhere and the episode itself was terrible. My mood swinged from good to terrible
Anyone who thought they could genuinely turn John in to a good guy is naive. John Doe is a violent, schizophrenic psychopath, and there's no… morething you can do to change that. John wanted to be a hero like Batman, but his mental inner workings were incompatible with Batman's moral code, and in the end it pushed him to the point where it completely shattered his mind and caused him to have a psychotic breakdown, giving Bruce no other choice but to bring him in.
That doesn't mean you can't sympathize with him though, and at the very least Bruce can help keep him in check so that he doesn't end up becoming a sadistic mass murderer like he is in the villain path.
Then maybe we shouldn't have got advertised with two paths if both will diverge as soon as we barely get into the episode. The game was forcing me into doing things I didn't want to do. I expected the bare minimum and still got crapped on
I know players will dump on Telltale for this no matter what, but I just can't get angry with the outcome(s) of John's story. I feel there's… more always been an element of Greek tragedy to Batman and his rogue gallery. Regardless of your choices, Harvey Dent will become Two-Face. Regardless of your choices, John will become The Joker. It's not so much a case of "your decisions never matter," but maintaining the melancholic aura of these characters.
However, the one thing that the universe DOESN'T have power over is your personal relationship with the villains. My Bruce remained a loyal friend to Harvey right to the bitter end; the same with Joker. The stars might dictate who becomes a hero or a monster, but their eyes can't spot everything that happens beneath them. Suffice to say, my version of Bruce visited Joker at Arkham, and Joker was overjoyed to see him. I'm very grateful Telltale included that scene, if only to suggest that, even if the… [view original content]
Sorry guys but I'm laughing so much at how annoyed you guys are over the Joker relationship. As much as I would of liked Harley's relationsh… moreip with Bruce to be developed more (cause as stated at the end of episode 5 she even trusts you based on your episode 3 final choice) it was unrealistic though and an idea a lot of you hated on lol. @Kaelthas is right this is karma for a lot of you guys.
I was his friend to the very end and even went to visit him at Arkham
Our fight sucked and our little chat was tearjerking! I invested so much into him
I was his friend to the very end and even went to visit him at Arkham
Our fight sucked and our little chat was tearjerking! I invested so much into him
Now Ive gotta play the villian version...
That's the point. John was containing his dark, inner side (which he mentions in several ocassions) for Bruce during the episode (as opposed to the Villain ending, where he just fully gives into it since the very beginning, hence why he doesn't have a psychotic episode like vigilante John), and when that side comes out, he just can't take it. He's completely mad during the entire fight.
He even tells you this after his fight in Ace Chemicals. He tried very hard to be a hero, to follow Batman's code, but he just can't. That's the main difference between the Villain and Vigilante Joker. Vigilante Joker wants to do good, but he just knows he can't, and it pains him. Villain Joker thinks the entire world is a joke, that justice is a joke, and he just want to make Bruce's life as miserable as possible.
Regardless, it's pretty clear that John still cares for Bruce and viceversa in the ending where Bruce goes to Arkham to visit John (if you tell him you considered him your friend). This ending is impossible to get in the Villain playthrough, because there's no love left between Bruce and John. Only hatred (and some sort of twisted affection by Joker's regard).
There are A LOT of differences between the John who becomes a Vigilante and the John who turns into a Villain. I don't see why you feel you've been "crapped on".
Oh my god why isn't anyone getting the point. He wasn't going to turn fully good but he flipped off a nowhere and the episode itself was terrible. My mood swinged from good to terrible
But I think it's because you had very high expectations for the episode, that whatever headcanon and how much hype you had for it, it ended up not being what you imagined. I admit from on tumblr's tag, I was a little hyped from everyone's theories and expectations, but I sort of knew that it probably wasn't going to end happy. I was even hoping for a little Harley/Joker confrontation, but there wasn't much. ;; LOL
But Joker has trouble controlling his impulses, which is why he lashed out so much and got angry at Batman for not doing what he thought Batman should do.
I believe if he does get some actual help in the asylum, he might be able to learn how to control himself, and be able to be the hero like he wanted to be. But right now he's just too unstable.
I'm glad though that in the end; he seem to have regret what he had done(?), if you said you were his friend, at least in my ending, and Bruce even visits him on my route.
freelancepolicefan11 posted:
telling him that he was my friend and I really cared, and getting replied with "You're the crazy one here if you ever thought that". sting-ed. A lot.
As Joker calling you crazy for saying you were still his friend, I believe that was just him joking (no pun intended) around with you and not something he meant in spite or him rejecting your friendship. He probably just couldn't believe that you'd still considered him a friend after all what he did, from what I get from it(?)
Even so it happened too quickly, was poorly handled and I was forced to paint him as a villian for throwing bombs after we were cornered then game forces me to pick them up. REALLY? Also Waller was infuriarating and got no commupance. I hater so much that I was willing to let everything wrong in the episode slide if John killed her.
That's the point. John was containing his dark, inner side (which he mentions in several ocassions) for Bruce during the episode (as opposed… more to the Villain ending, where he just fully gives into it since the very beginning, hence why he doesn't have a psychotic episode like vigilante John), and when that side comes out, he just can't take it. He's completely mad during the entire fight.
He even tells you this after his fight in Ace Chemicals. He tried very hard to be a hero, to follow Batman's code, but he just can't. That's the main difference between the Villain and Vigilante Joker. Vigilante Joker wants to do good, but he just knows he can't, and it pains him. Villain Joker thinks the entire world is a joke, that justice is a joke, and he just want to make Bruce's life as miserable as possible.
Regardless, it's pretty clear that John still cares for Bruce and viceversa in the ending where Bruce goes to Arkham to visit John (if you te… [view original content]
Hopefully though I love John and don't like him evil though it was going to happen regardless... telltale have made it love the joker
Though to get villain I'll have to replay episode 4 hmmm
It's not even about the ending.
I hated everything following the first 20 minutes.
Waller
Pacing
Villian switcharoo
Waller not getting uppercutted to death then shred by blades.
Barely any choices
Getting forced to what I don't want to do.
I expected the bare minimum and got nothing. It's not like I'm looking for a reason to hate. I was shedding tears from the utter disappointment.
I understand your frustration...
But I think it's because you had very high expectations for the episode, that whatever headcanon and how… more much hype you had for it, it ended up not being what you imagined. I admit from on tumblr's tag, I was a little hyped from everyone's theories and expectations, but I sort of knew that it probably wasn't going to end happy. I was even hoping for a little Harley/Joker confrontation, but there wasn't much. ;; LOL
But Joker has trouble controlling his impulses, which is why he lashed out so much and got angry at Batman for not doing what he thought Batman should do.
I believe if he does get some actual help in the asylum, he might be able to learn how to control himself, and be able to be the hero like he wanted to be. But right now he's just too unstable.
I'm glad though that in the end; he seem to have regret what he had done(?), if you said you were his friend, at least in my ending, and Bruce … [view original content]
I do wish though that we had the chance to calm Joker down before he completely snapped and lost himself. That was a moment I wish we had choices for.
As for Waller... I don't think she derserved all of that, even though she did some shady business. All in all, she thought she was doing things to help Gotham, but took it way too far. But I don't believe she deserves to be shreded into little cubes, maybe put in jail for some time for her crimes, but not killed. If she was mass murdering people, being a complete monster towards you, and everyone else in the name of justice, then maybe.
Don't let yourself get too sad/disappointed by the game, because at the end of the day, it's just a video game you play. Geting yourself so worked up over it will just put stress on yourself.
It's not even about the ending.
I hated everything following the first 20 minutes.
Waller
Pacing
Villian switcharoo
Waller not getting … moreuppercutted to death then shred by blades.
Barely any choices
Getting forced to what I don't want to do.
I expected the bare minimum and got nothing. It's not like I'm looking for a reason to hate. I was shedding tears from the utter disappointment.
The karma is you guys hating on the Harley ship so Telltale decided to sink your John ship as well to even the score lol. And yes going off the end game descriptions mine said "Harley genuinely came to trust you after you exposed Catwoman as the thief of Riddler's Laptop."
The karma is you guys hating on the Harley ship so Telltale decided to sink your John ship as well to even the score lol. And yes going off … morethe end game descriptions mine said "Harley genuinely came to trust you after you exposed Catwoman as the thief of Riddler's Laptop."
I was pretty much a sap and just took the punishment for Catwoman instead of blaming her, because I thought they were gonna freeze her and she'd end up hating me, but I sometimes wish I did because-- yea I like Harley she's my favorite, and I want to see the part where we're all going to get the serum. Hearing that bring some relief that she wasn't just manipulating us and didn't feel anything about you.
The karma is you guys hating on the Harley ship so Telltale decided to sink your John ship as well to even the score lol. And yes going off … morethe end game descriptions mine said "Harley genuinely came to trust you after you exposed Catwoman as the thief of Riddler's Laptop."
You must really hate Waller;;
I do wish though that we had the chance to calm Joker down before he completely snapped and lost himself. … moreThat was a moment I wish we had choices for.
As for Waller... I don't think she derserved all of that, even though she did some shady business. All in all, she thought she was doing things to help Gotham, but took it way too far. But I don't believe she deserves to be shreded into little cubes, maybe put in jail for some time for her crimes, but not killed. If she was mass murdering people, being a complete monster towards you, and everyone else in the name of justice, then maybe.
Don't let yourself get too sad/disappointed by the game, because at the end of the day, it's just a video game you play. Geting yourself so worked up over it will just put stress on yourself.
I was pretty much a sap and just took the punishment for Catwoman instead of blaming her, because I thought they were gonna freeze her and s… morehe'd end up hating me, but I sometimes wish I did because-- yea I like Harley she's my favorite, and I want to see the part where we're all going to get the serum. Hearing that bring some relief that she wasn't just manipulating us and didn't feel anything about you.
I might end up playing again one day.
Vigilante and villain routes both have a lot of issues, but yeah, the problem with vigilante is
Not enough partnership time
Lame reasoning for the grudge
Too fast pacing
Words "Joker" and "justice" dosn't rhyme.
I was afraid this whole "Joker turning on me" won't look convincing, and it doesn't because:
Batman comes first, I have a hard time believing even being overwelmed by impulses Joker would choose some vendetta over his twisted realtionship with Batman. Batman is the reason he's breathing, lmao. All other versions of the Joker facepalmed so hard at the moment John attackd Batman.
It makes it even more stupid because Joker's belief in justice isn't even real. He just made himself believe in it, because he wanted to be like Batman and close to Batman. Turning against your idol over something which is not even real is... Lame to put it lightly. It's the same as with Waller - she acts stupid and out of character on the bridge shooting John just to make things moving. Same as with Gordon - he acts like a jerk no matter what you do, just so Waller could demote him. Same as with Alfred - no matter what you do, he still will say he'll leave you.
> He still says we used him(partly true but I SIDED WITH YOU). Choices matter?
That thing.
They could have handled vigilante better, and make Batman and Vigilante Joker conflict believable, but they didn't have enough time. It's hard to build all the development of such conflict in how much, 40 minutes? How much screentime Joker have? So it's not surprising.
But in the end they did allow us to stay friends, so, I guess, it's a win. + Vigilante Joker doesn't look deranged im his Arkham cell, unlike Villain.
If there is season 3, we might still have a chance to work with him in Hannibal Lecter style. Him, Harvey, etc.
If he'll break out, mb team up, even. Even classic Joker team up with Batman sometimes.
We'll see.
So, yeah - it ended in a fight, but they're still friends. So. It's ok.
Don't be upset.
Vigilante and villain routes both have a lot of issues, but yeah, the problem with vigilante is
* Not enough partnership time
* Lame r… moreeasoning for the grudge
* Too fast pacing
* Words "Joker" and "justice" dosn't rhyme.
I was afraid this whole "Joker turning on me" won't look convincing, and it doesn't because:
* Batman comes first, I have a hard time believing even being overwelmed by impulses Joker would choose some vendetta over his twisted realtionship with Batman. Batman is the reason he's breathing, lmao. All other versions of the Joker facepalmed so hard at the moment John attackd Batman.
* It makes it even more stupid because Joker's belief in justice isn't even real. He just made himself believe in it, because he wanted to be like Batman and close to Batman. Turning against your idol over something which is not even real is... Lame to put it lightly. It's the same as with Waller - she acts stupid and out of character … [view original content]
The first third was exactly what I wanted. Joker and Batman fighting together. Stopping bane. Meting up with Alfred. A struggle to teach Joker how to be a hero. Right up to the bombs. The next third is pretty weak, only being saved if you have Vigilante Tiffany (who never has a code name). ‘Tis truly lame.
Then we get to ace chemicals, that third other than Vigilante Tiffany ending was functional good but not what the whole marketing for this side lead you to believe. No matter what you do he won’t get over he’s hattered of Waller, then Tiffany says something( which is bad even if she a Vigilante) and that pushes him over the edge.
You made the choice to trust him and inspire him to be a Vigilante but while the ending is tragic for the player, it feels like it completely robs me of choice so he’ll still end up in Arkham, which would be fine if anything I said or did would stop him from killing those agents and just wanting to kill Tiffany and Waller in his anger, depression and confusion but nope, he goes kill happy for no good reason and there’s not a dam thing you can do, all because everything has to be wrapped up neatly, cause they won’t go out the neat little box and commit to having to put in a Vigilante Joker for half the people who’ll play season 3. This should have been a struggle to bring John to the light, but it’s just him falling into darkness no matter what you do.
While I like Villain path, nothing in its unique except for these versions of the characters, every action has been done before just as well or better in other versions of Batman. While commend them for trying, they really should have doubled down on Vigilante Joker, having your choices determine wether he’ll fight with you like Robin or seek to bring his own form of justice like the Punisher, while struggling to keep or bring him into the light while also making the right compromises that don’t let him or you slip away.
Also some ending scenes with Catwoman and Avesta would have been nice.
Fun fact, I ran a poll on Twitter and out of about 170, 80% would have been in some way chill if Joker had justifiably killed Waller, and a lot of the rest would’ve told him it can’t happen again.
The first third was exactly what I wanted. Joker and Batman fighting together. Stopping bane. Meting up with Alfred. A struggle to teach Jok… moreer how to be a hero. Right up to the bombs. The next third is pretty weak, only being saved if you have Vigilante Tiffany (who never has a code name). ‘Tis truly lame.
Then we get to ace chemicals, that third other than Vigilante Tiffany ending was functional good but not what the whole marketing for this side lead you to believe. No matter what you do he won’t get over he’s hattered of Waller, then Tiffany says something( which is bad even if she a Vigilante) and that pushes him over the edge.
You made the choice to trust him and inspire him to be a Vigilante but while the ending is tragic for the player, it feels like it completely robs me of choice so he’ll still end up in Arkham, which would be fine if anything I said or did would stop him from killing those agents and just wanting to kill Tiffa… [view original content]
Also like someone else said Joker's breakdown didn't just come out of nowhere, it was a culmination of him realizing his hero, Batman/Bruce was flawed and that justice wasn't perfect. He ends episode 4 laughing and saying him and Batman are going to bring The Agency to justice. But in the next episode he begins to see his ideal of justice isn't what he thought it was. It's not 100% perfect, and Batman is willing to compromise, or criticize John's methods. Like if you tell him he went too far with the agents, he gets pissed off and says he was just doing what you do, which is technically true, there have been moments where Batman's beat the shit out of people, even if you didn't play a brutal Batman. But really it's the rooftop on GDCP that sends Joker overboard.
That's where he views firsthand Batman's hypocrisy. Instead of bringing Waller to justice, Batman is willing to compromise and force a stalemate. That's where Vigilante John begins to realize that justice is pointless, and people just use the idea of justice to excuse their actions. That is the point of John's breakdown in the vigilante ending. He saw Batman/Bruce as a beacon of justice, as something that he could believe in. But he learns that Batman isn't perfect, he doesn't embody the concept of justice John was after. John even says as much when you chase him into the control room, and he says he must be an idiot for wanting to have been so much like Bruce/Batsy and idolizing him instead of just trying to be himself.
Happened way too quickly and was painted as the villain barely before the middle of the episode. I'm sorry but the way it was handled along with everything else still has me mad. I hated Batman in this. I despised Waller. Despised Tiffany. Ending too. Pacing. Everything just sucked.Everything in this pathway made me want to die because of the fustration.
Also like someone else said Joker's breakdown didn't just come out of nowhere, it was a culmination of him realizing his hero, Batman/Bruce … morewas flawed and that justice wasn't perfect. He ends episode 4 laughing and saying him and Batman are going to bring The Agency to justice. But in the next episode he begins to see his ideal of justice isn't what he thought it was. It's not 100% perfect, and Batman is willing to compromise, or criticize John's methods. Like if you tell him he went too far with the agents, he gets pissed off and says he was just doing what you do, which is technically true, there have been moments where Batman's beat the shit out of people, even if you didn't play a brutal Batman. But really it's the rooftop on GDCP that sends Joker overboard.
That's where he views firsthand Batman's hypocrisy. Instead of bringing Waller to justice, Batman is willing to compromise and force a stalemate. That's where Vigilante John begins… [view original content]
Comments
Look this is coming from someone who loved John and wanted to really show the world he can change for the better, and I loved the vigilante side. I thought the first half of working with "Joker" was excellent but also knew that the John I wanted just wasn't in the cards after the first encounter with his new persona. He was rash, violent, and wanted people to suffer. The John I had hopes for wasn't there from the beginning. He was a lost cause, and yet I still wanted to try. I wanted to try so hard. I ruined relationships with allies and former allies just so I can help John become what I and (how I hoped) he wanted to be. That was a mistake from the beginning but that relationship I don't regret.
John's a broken piece to a puzzle that won't fit. No matter how hard you want it to fit and complete the picture it won't; not even mended with tape, it'll just fall apart or won't look how it should. Seeing this John fall farther and farther apart felt natural and heart breaking, and not like a rewritten character. The signs were there from the beginning, and the actions that I made only made things worse. Pouring my heart to John, and telling him that he was my friend and I really cared, and getting replied with "You're the crazy one here if you ever thought that". sting-ed. A lot. Sending him to Arkham and seeing that scene at the end, and having the loop repeat filled me with relief but also dread. That John I saw was never there to begin with, but that doesn't mean it all didn't matter. I still care and even if John says he doesn't. I gave everything up just so that I can still have a "friend" and I paid the price. I wouldn't say I'd do it all again, especially now that Batman has been retired, but I don't regret trying, and I don't think John did either.
Telltale promised 2 different episodes with 2 different Jokers. Vigilante Joker even though he became a bad guy was still a very different Joker from the one we got in villian version of the episode.
Lying and falling flatter than a pancake is claiming an episode is so big it needs to be split in two, saying there are 42 starting points, choices from the past season will carry over, and you play as 2 different protagonist when in reality the episode is too small to be split in two, there are no really starting points and that ones that are considered starting points are really only 4, past season choices didnt make an impact, and you play as primarily one protagonist, and play as the other for 3 minutes.
I haven't yet read this thread or anything after finishing the vigilante route, I'll do that after I've also played the villain route. I swore I wouldn't play that but I just have to.. created a save file for the villain path while waiting for the ep 5 update, couldn't do it any other way than moving in on Harley on the bridge while John was talking to her.. still couldn't be mean to John. But now that I just minutes ago finished the vigilante route I want to gather my thoughts.
About Harley: Was surprised to see her actually working with the Agency, told her that she's Waller's puppet, because that's what she became. Was happy to see her again though, also told her John's over her.. I put her in cuffs and told her she's going to prison.
About Waller: I really loved every scene with her. We parted as enemies, but I understand her more now. How could I not, when I also went to grey area with John because of how much I still care for him. I was ready to do anything to help him..
About Gordon: Man was I happy to see him again! I love him so much! We were never in bad terms, not even when he tried to arrest Bruce, I really understood him back then. I told him I missed the old days too, because I do. I'm such a hypocrite just having smoked myself but I wasn't happy seeing him smoke again, he also had his nicotine patch on too, lol.
About Catwoman: What's there to say really.. she wasn't much in my playthrough at least, did we even really speak..? I threw her under the bus to keep my cover so she was pissed. I wasn't romantic with her this time, wanted to keep her as a friend. When the choice was given about Avesta or Catwoman I chose Avesta. I would have wanted to pick both of them but yeah, that wasn't possible. I thought she could handle herself, but now it says that she's forced to work with the Agency. I don't like that at all..
About Tiffany: I chose not to bring her with me, wanted her to stay in the Batcave because of Lucius, I wanted to keep her safe. Was surprised to find out she killed Riddler, but because I can understand her need for revenge I took her under my wing. Also because I wanted to be able to do that with John no matter what, it would have been hypocritical of me not to. So that's why I didn't want to put her in prison, and I decided to try and help her.
About Avesta: Happy to find out she was good after all! I was very skeptical of her.. I offered her a job at Wayne Enterprises and defended her against Waller, decided to call her instead of Gordon, which I also wanted to do, but I chose her because she was closer to Waller so I thought she would be able to provide more information about her. She's been so supporting all the way through anyway, following Bruce's lead, I love her!
About Alfred: Boy oh boy.. I can understand him wanting to leave but that really broke my heart. I wasn't expecting that at all. But it's his decision isn't it, he got rid of his tremor so that's good. But I'm still shocked.. I chose to be Batman because I don't think Bruce would ever be able to give that up since he really is that messed up.. he just can't give up being Batman and fighting crime. I hope Alfred will be happy.. that was so very difficult to go through.
About John: No matter how much I wanted to be able to save him I have to say, when that epic last fight was going on the more I came to realize that I was okay with how it all went down. That scene where him and Alfred were talking in the alley was awesome. And I just loved fighting beside him. But the thing still is, I was left feeling cold.. I wanted more scenes with him, the old John, that's what I'm disappointed about. Anthony Ingruber was amazing as always, but I really wanted more scenes. I wanted them to talk more, a lot more! I feel like I never really had a chance to have a proper conversation about everything with him. That Arkham scene at the end left me wanting more, what were they going to say?!? I still told him I was his friend.. and he thinks Bruce is crazy, well yeah no shit.
I saved Willy because the agent was ready to kill. I refused to hand over John to Waller. Still seems I'm struggling to call him the Joker.. going to play the villain route now!
Edit. Btw I was so hyped I played sitting on the carpet right in front of the tv, still will haha.
Anyone who thought they could genuinely turn John in to a good guy is naive. John Doe is a violent, schizophrenic psychopath, and there's nothing you can do to change that. John wanted to be a hero like Batman, but his mental inner workings were incompatible with Batman's moral code, and in the end it pushed him to the point where it completely shattered his mind and caused him to have a psychotic breakdown, giving Bruce no other choice but to bring him in.
That doesn't mean you can't sympathize with him though, and at the very least Bruce can help keep him in check so that he doesn't end up becoming a sadistic mass murderer like he is in the villain path.
I am playing through Vigilante... was always John and I.. made it all about him, never bloody Selina! Couldn't care less about a romance with her.. was all about John for me! ... and we barely got to fight together as a team before he went and nearly blew me up
God damn! I just wanted us both to run off into the sunset together 
I thought the writing on the wall was there all along. After all, Telltale never referred to him as a good guy or a hero, it was always vigilante-- a person operating outside of the law, taking matters into their own hands and delivering justice on their own terms. It's not necessarily bad, but the problem with vigilante justice is that it isn't weighed against anything other than what the person doing it believes in. In the world of vigilantism, justice is not universally defined, it's in the eye of the beholder. And for John, his idea of 'justice' is... definitely unique.
John's idea of justice was very black and white, and ultimately his methods and his views weren't in line with Batman's. As strict as Batman's code may be, his views on justice at least have some shades of grey to them, and he's potentially willing to give people a chance to redeem themselves if they're willing to take it.
I know players will dump on Telltale for this no matter what, but I just can't get angry with the outcome(s) of John's story. I feel there's always been an element of Greek tragedy to Batman and his rogue gallery. Regardless of your choices, Harvey Dent will become Two-Face. Regardless of your choices, John will become The Joker. It's not so much a case of "your decisions never matter," but maintaining the melancholic aura of these characters.
However, the one thing that the universe DOESN'T have power over is your personal relationship with the villains. My Bruce remained a loyal friend to Harvey right to the bitter end; the same with Joker. The stars might dictate who becomes a hero or a monster, but their eyes can't spot everything that happens beneath them. Suffice to say, my version of Bruce visited Joker at Arkham, and Joker was overjoyed to see him. I'm very grateful Telltale included that scene, if only to suggest that, even if they're enemies on the battlefield, the Joker will always have that one consolation knowing he actually had a GENUINE friend at some point in his otherwise dark and miserable life.
That's what I take from the game, anyway. I've only just finished, and I'm still processing it.
One of my problems with the route was that none of the dialogue options seemed to really... Well, confirm we're on his side quite in the way I wanted to, and not enough to stop things.
He was teetering on the edge the whole time, and he needed someone to come right up next to him to hold him steady, calm him down, and pull him back supportively, but not to stand away from the edge he was looking at and tell him how wrong the abyss is imo. Because I wanted to tell him that he was totally right, everything he was feeling was the same way I felt, and that we were both turning away from that wrong at the end of this path, together. To be better than the criminals. (Because I really hated Waller pfft.)
I also, really, really, wanted to tell him that I believe him and that I know he didn't kill Riddler, but that it wasn't Waller either and he had to step off! I picked up pretty quickly that it was Tiffany when Bane brought it up, and I wanted to calm Joker down since that seemed to have really set him off, but... It just wasn't an option! Not that I'd want him after Tiff, but things would have definitely turned out differently if he didn't have that hate over being rudely blamed for something he didn't do.
It all just felt more hostile than it had to be.
But the ending, in the office... it had me feel like tearing up. And I'm so glad that being friends was, still an option... In the end...
I thought the Vigilante route was better overall tbh.
I never thought I could turn Joker into a goodie goodie. Honestly, I enjoyed the Vigilante route. I expected John to do bad things. I took him down, and that was the right thing to do. Doesn't make it any less heartbreaking for Bruce though. It's sad how the people he cares about and wants to help turn on him.
yeah the vigilante route was very disappointing but oh well, i should know better than to trust telltale lol. at least the other episodes were enjoyable.
Sorry guys but I'm laughing so much at how annoyed you guys are over the Joker relationship. As much as I would of liked Harley's relationship with Bruce to be developed more (cause as stated at the end of episode 5 she even trusts you based on your episode 3 final choice) it was unrealistic though and an idea a lot of you hated on lol. @Kaelthas is right this is karma for a lot of you guys.
Awww, c'mon, there is still a plenty of crazy pshychopath villains to befriend, why stop now?
We barely got to do anything with him before he turned villia. I didn't expect him to turn evil that fast and have the real villain escape unharmed.
First half? Did it even reach that? Also when does John say that? Curious
Oh my god why isn't anyone getting the point. He wasn't going to turn fully good but he flipped off a nowhere and the episode itself was terrible. My mood swinged from good to terrible
Then maybe we shouldn't have got advertised with two paths if both will diverge as soon as we barely get into the episode. The game was forcing me into doing things I didn't want to do. I expected the bare minimum and still got crapped on
Cant agree but fair enough glad someone got any enjoyment out of it.
Harleu trusts Bruce after Ep 5? What?
How is it karma? Him turning evil regardless isn't exactly he problem or the only problem even.
I was his friend to the very end and even went to visit him at Arkham
and our little chat was tearjerking! I invested so much into him
Our fight sucked
Now Ive gotta play the villian version...
You'll probably enjoy yourself more with the villain one
That's the point. John was containing his dark, inner side (which he mentions in several ocassions) for Bruce during the episode (as opposed to the Villain ending, where he just fully gives into it since the very beginning, hence why he doesn't have a psychotic episode like vigilante John), and when that side comes out, he just can't take it. He's completely mad during the entire fight.
He even tells you this after his fight in Ace Chemicals. He tried very hard to be a hero, to follow Batman's code, but he just can't. That's the main difference between the Villain and Vigilante Joker. Vigilante Joker wants to do good, but he just knows he can't, and it pains him. Villain Joker thinks the entire world is a joke, that justice is a joke, and he just want to make Bruce's life as miserable as possible.
Regardless, it's pretty clear that John still cares for Bruce and viceversa in the ending where Bruce goes to Arkham to visit John (if you tell him you considered him your friend). This ending is impossible to get in the Villain playthrough, because there's no love left between Bruce and John. Only hatred (and some sort of twisted affection by Joker's regard).
There are A LOT of differences between the John who becomes a Vigilante and the John who turns into a Villain. I don't see why you feel you've been "crapped on".
I understand your frustration...
But I think it's because you had very high expectations for the episode, that whatever headcanon and how much hype you had for it, it ended up not being what you imagined. I admit from on tumblr's tag, I was a little hyped from everyone's theories and expectations, but I sort of knew that it probably wasn't going to end happy. I was even hoping for a little Harley/Joker confrontation, but there wasn't much. ;; LOL
But Joker has trouble controlling his impulses, which is why he lashed out so much and got angry at Batman for not doing what he thought Batman should do.
I believe if he does get some actual help in the asylum, he might be able to learn how to control himself, and be able to be the hero like he wanted to be. But right now he's just too unstable.
I'm glad though that in the end; he seem to have regret what he had done(?), if you said you were his friend, at least in my ending, and Bruce even visits him on my route.
As Joker calling you crazy for saying you were still his friend, I believe that was just him joking (no pun intended) around with you and not something he meant in spite or him rejecting your friendship. He probably just couldn't believe that you'd still considered him a friend after all what he did, from what I get from it(?)
Even so it happened too quickly, was poorly handled and I was forced to paint him as a villian for throwing bombs after we were cornered then game forces me to pick them up. REALLY? Also Waller was infuriarating and got no commupance. I hater so much that I was willing to let everything wrong in the episode slide if John killed her.
Hopefully though I love John and don't like him evil
though it was going to happen regardless... telltale have made it love the joker 
Though to get villain I'll have to replay episode 4 hmmm
It's not even about the ending.
I hated everything following the first 20 minutes.
Waller
Pacing
Villian switcharoo
Waller not getting uppercutted to death then shred by blades.
Barely any choices
Getting forced to what I don't want to do.
I expected the bare minimum and got nothing. It's not like I'm looking for a reason to hate. I was shedding tears from the utter disappointment.
You must really hate Waller;;
I do wish though that we had the chance to calm Joker down before he completely snapped and lost himself. That was a moment I wish we had choices for.
As for Waller... I don't think she derserved all of that, even though she did some shady business. All in all, she thought she was doing things to help Gotham, but took it way too far. But I don't believe she deserves to be shreded into little cubes, maybe put in jail for some time for her crimes, but not killed. If she was mass murdering people, being a complete monster towards you, and everyone else in the name of justice, then maybe.
Don't let yourself get too sad/disappointed by the game, because at the end of the day, it's just a video game you play. Geting yourself so worked up over it will just put stress on yourself.
The karma is you guys hating on the Harley ship so Telltale decided to sink your John ship as well to even the score lol. And yes going off the end game descriptions mine said "Harley genuinely came to trust you after you exposed Catwoman as the thief of Riddler's Laptop."
I NEVER HATED THE HARLEY SHIP.
I WAS IN FAVOR OF IT
I WAS PART OF THE CABIN CREW.
I was pretty much a sap and just took the punishment for Catwoman instead of blaming her, because I thought they were gonna freeze her and she'd end up hating me, but I sometimes wish I did because-- yea I like Harley she's my favorite, and I want to see the part where we're all going to get the serum. Hearing that bring some relief that she wasn't just manipulating us and didn't feel anything about you.
I might end up playing again one day.
Pretty much.
I dion't know why I'm taking this so hard lol.
It will only pay off if she is in a season 3 and you went the vigilante route so she doesn't get together with Joker.
Vigilante and villain routes both have a lot of issues, but yeah, the problem with vigilante is
Words "Joker" and "justice" dosn't rhyme.
I was afraid this whole "Joker turning on me" won't look convincing, and it doesn't because:
Batman comes first, I have a hard time believing even being overwelmed by impulses Joker would choose some vendetta over his twisted realtionship with Batman. Batman is the reason he's breathing, lmao. All other versions of the Joker facepalmed so hard at the moment John attackd Batman.
> He still says we used him(partly true but I SIDED WITH YOU). Choices matter?
That thing.
They could have handled vigilante better, and make Batman and Vigilante Joker conflict believable, but they didn't have enough time. It's hard to build all the development of such conflict in how much, 40 minutes? How much screentime Joker have? So it's not surprising.
But in the end they did allow us to stay friends, so, I guess, it's a win. + Vigilante Joker doesn't look deranged im his Arkham cell, unlike Villain.
If there is season 3, we might still have a chance to work with him in Hannibal Lecter style.
If he'll break out, mb team up, even. Even classic Joker team up with Batman sometimes.
We'll see.
So, yeah - it ended in a fight, but they're still friends. So. It's ok.
Don't be upset.
Pretty much my issues.
Waller not dying/not in jail is still pissing me off.
What I dislike about the Vigilante path is not that Joker turned evil, but how he turned evil.
The first third was exactly what I wanted. Joker and Batman fighting together. Stopping bane. Meting up with Alfred. A struggle to teach Joker how to be a hero. Right up to the bombs. The next third is pretty weak, only being saved if you have Vigilante Tiffany (who never has a code name). ‘Tis truly lame.
Then we get to ace chemicals, that third other than Vigilante Tiffany ending was functional good but not what the whole marketing for this side lead you to believe. No matter what you do he won’t get over he’s hattered of Waller, then Tiffany says something( which is bad even if she a Vigilante) and that pushes him over the edge.
You made the choice to trust him and inspire him to be a Vigilante but while the ending is tragic for the player, it feels like it completely robs me of choice so he’ll still end up in Arkham, which would be fine if anything I said or did would stop him from killing those agents and just wanting to kill Tiffany and Waller in his anger, depression and confusion but nope, he goes kill happy for no good reason and there’s not a dam thing you can do, all because everything has to be wrapped up neatly, cause they won’t go out the neat little box and commit to having to put in a Vigilante Joker for half the people who’ll play season 3. This should have been a struggle to bring John to the light, but it’s just him falling into darkness no matter what you do.
While I like Villain path, nothing in its unique except for these versions of the characters, every action has been done before just as well or better in other versions of Batman. While commend them for trying, they really should have doubled down on Vigilante Joker, having your choices determine wether he’ll fight with you like Robin or seek to bring his own form of justice like the Punisher, while struggling to keep or bring him into the light while also making the right compromises that don’t let him or you slip away.
Also some ending scenes with Catwoman and Avesta would have been nice.
Fun fact, I ran a poll on Twitter and out of about 170, 80% would have been in some way chill if Joker had justifiably killed Waller, and a lot of the rest would’ve told him it can’t happen again.
So do you think Joker would've just been like "oh okay, wont happen again!" and not kill again if it felt it was justified?
Also like someone else said Joker's breakdown didn't just come out of nowhere, it was a culmination of him realizing his hero, Batman/Bruce was flawed and that justice wasn't perfect. He ends episode 4 laughing and saying him and Batman are going to bring The Agency to justice. But in the next episode he begins to see his ideal of justice isn't what he thought it was. It's not 100% perfect, and Batman is willing to compromise, or criticize John's methods. Like if you tell him he went too far with the agents, he gets pissed off and says he was just doing what you do, which is technically true, there have been moments where Batman's beat the shit out of people, even if you didn't play a brutal Batman. But really it's the rooftop on GDCP that sends Joker overboard.
That's where he views firsthand Batman's hypocrisy. Instead of bringing Waller to justice, Batman is willing to compromise and force a stalemate. That's where Vigilante John begins to realize that justice is pointless, and people just use the idea of justice to excuse their actions. That is the point of John's breakdown in the vigilante ending. He saw Batman/Bruce as a beacon of justice, as something that he could believe in. But he learns that Batman isn't perfect, he doesn't embody the concept of justice John was after. John even says as much when you chase him into the control room, and he says he must be an idiot for wanting to have been so much like Bruce/Batsy and idolizing him instead of just trying to be himself.
Happened way too quickly and was painted as the villain barely before the middle of the episode. I'm sorry but the way it was handled along with everything else still has me mad. I hated Batman in this. I despised Waller. Despised Tiffany. Ending too. Pacing. Everything just sucked.Everything in this pathway made me want to die because of the fustration.