Yahtzee vs. Tales

2456

Comments

  • edited September 2009
    The only thing that I want to say on the matter is that it strikes me as curious that no one (and I mean no one) ever mentioned having any problem with the Largo-tune joke before Yahtzee talked about it. One of Yahtzee's talents is finding problems that weren't there before -- don't take him to seriously. It was a joke, and a funny joke at that. Don't get too worked up about it.

    Regarding his fame, in Monkey 2 Guybrush started to become more famous. He wasn't quite there yet, a lot of people didn't take him seriously yet, and he mainly tried to convince himself with his fancy coat and beard (not to mention all the books in the Phatt library - written by himself- detailing his 'heroic' adventures), but there certainly was a chance in the character between the two games. It's called character development. It's necessary to keep a story (certainly a series of stories) interesting over a longer period of time. More importantly, it would feel like lazy writing and bad storytelling if they didn't do anything with the character. It's not like Guybrush turned into some sort of muscly, throat-slitting pirate lord all of a sudden. He's still a dork, he's still naive, he's still Guybrush. It's more that he's convinced himself that he's some sort of awesome pirate. I think he's more like Guybrush 2 (arguably the best Guybrush) than any other, and not just because of the return of his coat and beard. I don't think there's anyone in Tales who has heard of Guybrush before expect for Morgan (and obviously Elaine, LeChuck and the Voodoo Lady, but they don't really count I suppose), and with Morgan it's clearly part of the joke -- She's treating the biggest loser in the world like David Beckham. Let's not forget that Guybrush's growth is something that was necessary according to Ron Gilbert, who missed that in Curse and Escape. I still don't completely agree with Ron's status as Monkey God (Dave Grossman (who's still working hard on the series right now!) and Tim Schafer are at least as important as him -- they wrote the bulk of the dialogue and jokes we still love today), but the fact of the matter is that Curse of Monkey Island was an excellent game that brought in more fans than any other game, and it started the Lucasarts internet-fandom boom of the late 90s. I'm starting an entirely different discussion here, a discussion that has been done to death a thousand times before, but all I want to say is this: Ron left the company. He didn't make a third game. Some other very talented guys did. And they made one of the finest adventure games in adventure history. Ron isn't the only one that made Monkey Island great. I'm sure he's a great guy, but his role in the greatness of Monkey Island is often completely exagerrated.

    I made this post way longer than I intended it to be, but my point remains: Yahtzee's job is to find problems in games. Reactions to Yahtzee can go both ways - people who take him too seriously and want to hunt him down and set his house on fire, and people who take him too seriously and start believing every little comment he has about the game is true and start seeing every (amusingly) twisted nitpick as some sort of game-destroying cataclysm. I surprisingly see more of the latter in this thread. The solution? Just don't take him too seriously.

    He's got a point about the repeated character models though.
  • edited September 2009
    I have a question to all the Yahtzee fanboys here: Why is it that anyone who mindlessly calls every Yahtzee nitpick a "valid point" and think he is the son of god not a fanboy, but anybody who has a slight disagreement with him, let alone hate his guts a fanboy?

    Yahtzee fanboys are worse than any other type of fanboy, IMHO.
  • edited September 2009
    I made this post way longer than I intended it to be, but my point remains: Yahtzee's job is to find problems in games. Reactions to Yahtzee can go both ways - people who take him too seriously and want to hunt him down and set his house on fire, and people who take him too seriously and start believing every little comment he has about the game is true and start seeing every (amusingly) twisted nitpick as some sort of game-destroying cataclysm. I surprisingly see more of the latter in this thread. The solution? Just don't take him too seriously.

    I'm more of the former. However, most of the time, I don't take him too seriously.
  • edited September 2009
    edit: Double post; delete this, mods.
  • edited September 2009
    I have a question to all the Yahtzee fanboys here: Why is it that anyone who mindlessly calls every Yahtzee nitpick a "valid point" and think he is the son of god not a fanboy, but anybody who has a slight disagreement with him, let alone hate his guts a fanboy?

    Yahtzee fanboys are worse than any other type of fanboy, IMHO.

    Chill dude, no one's a fanboy here and no one was calling anyone a fanboy until you popped in, so chill.
  • edited September 2009
    Jazzy wrote: »
    Chill dude, no one's a fanboy here and no one was calling anyone a fanboy until you popped in, so chill.

    Counterevidence:
    fajerkaos wrote:
    I can't belive that I'm so fanboyish, that I actually take slightly offence by Yahtzee. Scares even me.
    First time i watched it i took it a bit seriously and i did live up to some of the fanboy habits by moaning to my friend about this review being a joke, and of course, that the there was a third game planned... so live long, and SUCK IT, YAHTZEE!

    Also, Yahtzee gets me into a foaming rage not unlike the way some Britons think their dialect and orthography is the only one true "correct" one.
  • edited September 2009
    Counterevidence:





    Also, Yahtzee gets me into a foaming rage not unlike the way some Britons think their dialect and orthography is the only one true "correct" one.
    They were talking about themselves, they were not attacking other people in these threads like you are. But then, seeing your last sentance in your post, I realised that you are just trolling and trying to derail the thread by saying offensive things to people.

    Anyway, I like Yahtzee stuff, and I must admit that I too am horrified at how Fanboyish my innate reaction to some of his reviews are sometimes, especially the Overlord 2 one, though it's only momentary and can see where he is coming from usually.
  • edited September 2009
    But then, seeing your last sentance in your post, I realised that you are just trolling and trying to derail the thread by saying offensive things to people.

    No, I'm not trolling. I just can't stand that Yahtzee is put on a pedestal and the burden of proof always is on those criticizing Yahtzee. Also, I took offense in hearing those threads that implied that anyone who disagrees with Yahtzee is a fanboy.

    I mean, seriously, Guybrush saying "Why do I have that tune stuck in my head" is a big deal? Seriously? Yahtzee exaggerates for comic effect and his fanboys think it's a big enough deal to destroy the game, and that's what pisses me off.
  • edited September 2009
    Bah, whoever invented the word 'fanboy' should be imprisoned for life. It's as if it's a crime to actually like something! And it's especially weird how it only applies to games. If you like good art, you're a 'connoisseur', if you like great food, you're a 'gourmet'... and if you like awesome games, you're a... fanboy. Gah.
  • edited September 2009
    Haggis wrote: »
    Bah, whoever invented the word 'fanboy' should be imprisoned for life. It's as if it's a crime to actually like something! And it's especially weird how it only applies to games. If you like good art, you're a 'connoisseur', if you like great food, you're a 'gourmet'... and if you like awesome games, you're a... fanboy. Gah.

    I propose we start using the word ludophile instead :)
  • edited September 2009
    Marzhin wrote: »
    I propose we start using the word ludophile instead :)
    Hey, that's not half bad! Very well, my fellow ludophile, let's stick it to these philistines, eh? Bunch of luddites, the lot of them!
  • edited September 2009
    Guybrush did write a book about his adventure as seen in the second game in the library... So Morgan could definitely have read that.
  • edited September 2009
    Irishmile wrote: »
    Guybrush did write a book about his adventure as seen in the second game in the library... So Morgan could definitely have read that.

    Not to mention the beginning of MI2 which shows he likes to brag A LOT about his adventures (to the point the other pirates are sick ot it).
  • edited September 2009
    Tjibbbe wrote: »
    It's called character development. It's necessary to keep a story (certainly a series of stories) interesting over a longer period of time. More importantly, it would feel like lazy writing and bad storytelling if they didn't do anything with the character.

    I completely agree with you. There are two main complaints in Yahtzee's review: 1) the fact that the series had to stop after the "sad ending" of LeChuck's Revenge; 2) the fact that the fans/developers of the sequels have treated the franchise with a timorous "respect" which eventually prevented the characters and the whole monkey-lore from a true and much-needed evolution (and that's why he defines the inoffensive reference to Largo's tune an idle fan tip). While I partly agree with the first point (as he says, who loves the franchise will understand that), I honestly believe that with Telltale the saga is finally finding a genuine development: LeChuck is good (maybe), Elaine is annoying, Voodoo Lady is sexy (well, somehow...) and Guybrush is a badass (in his own way). Morgan LeFlay may be the fan/developer's fictional counterpart, true, but she's also a solid, well-written new character who's mixing up the 4 games old love triangle. Guybrush has never had a groupie before: it's unexpected simply because it's new. Yahtzee is calling for a change, but at the same time - as any old fan of the series would do - he fears it. Nothing surprising, really.

    As for the other complaints, there's nothing which hasn't been pointed at before: model reusing, some very flat puzzles, empty/crammed environments.
  • edited September 2009
    Zomantic wrote: »
    I completely agree with you. There are two main complaints in Yahtzee's review: 1) the fact that the series had to stop after the "sad ending" of LeChuck's Revenge; 2) the fact that the fans/developers of the sequels have treated the franchise with a timorous "respect" which eventually prevented the characters and the whole monkey-lore from a true and much-needed evolution (and that's why he defines the inoffensive reference to Largo's tune an idle fan tip). While I partly agree with the first point (as he says, who loves the franchise will understand that), I honestly believe that with Telltale the saga is finally finding a genuine development: LeChuck is good (maybe), Elaine is annoying, Voodoo Lady is sexy (well, somehow...) and Guybrush is a badass (in his own way). Morgan LeFlay may be the fan/developer's fictional counterpart, true, but she's also a solid, well-written new character who's mixing up the 4 games old love triangle. Guybrush has never had a groupie before: it's unexpected simply because it's new. Yahtzee is calling for a change, but at the same time - as any old fan of the series would do - he fears it. Nothing surprising, really.

    As for the other complaints, there's nothing which hasn't been pointed at before: model reusing, some very flat puzzles, empty/crammed environments.

    That's an interesting way of seeing it. It's just that in the beginning, Yahtzee wasn't that bad, he praised Portal and Psychonauts. But now he seems to criticize just for the sake of criticism, however "valid" they may be.
  • edited September 2009
    Yahtzee... I used to think you were cool, and supported indy gaming.

    I now see you to be an idiot!

    ALL RESPECT IS GONE! God, he did a positive review of Psychonauts and Portal, but honestly, TOMI is PWNAGE! It's better than most of the old ones!

    Yahtzee sucks!
  • edited September 2009
    That's an interesting way of seeing it. It's just that in the beginning, Yahtzee wasn't that bad, he praised Portal and Psychonauts. But now he seems to criticize just for the sake of criticism, however "valid" they may be.

    But I'm not implying that Yahtzee lost his edge, mind you. I actually appreciate his work a lot: ZP is always both amusing and clever; its main aim is of course criticizing and nit-picking, but never without a good reason. In this review he had to deal with the circumstance that he's always been a true lover of the first two games: that's why he chose the schizophrenic double accent approach. Anyway, I think that he underestimated the fact that, for the first time after LeChuck's Revenge (if you exclude the sometimes hilarious hysterical blasphemy of EfMI) the series truly is evolving.
    By the way, it's a pity that he hasn't waited for the end of the season. I believe that his reflections may have been more interesting then.
  • edited September 2009
    Zomantic wrote: »
    But I'm not implying that Yahtzee lost his edge, mind you.

    I'm not implying that you're implying that Yahtzee lost his edge.
    Zomantic wrote: »
    I actually appreciate his work a lot: ZP is always both amusing and clever; its main aim is of course criticizing and nit-picking, but never without a good reason. In this review he had to deal with the circumstance that he's always been a true lover of the first two games: that's why he chose the schizophrenic double accent approach. Anyway, I think that he underestimated the fact that, for the first time after LeChuck's Revenge (if you exclude the sometimes hilarious hysterical blasphemy of EfMI) the series truly is evolving.
    By the way, it's a pity that he hasn't waited for the end of the season. I believe that his reflections may have been more interesting then.

    Yeah, I wondered why he didn't wait until the end of the season. Impatience, perhaps?
  • edited September 2009
    No it wouldn't.

    I reiterate: people get songs stuck in their head without knowing why all the time. Why does it not make sense for Guybrush to have a song stuck in his head and not know why, regardless of what the song is?

    MAYBE the line drew too much attention to the reference for some people, but it was still a perfectly logical in-universe thing for Guybrush to say. If he had explicitly said "Hey, that's Largo's music!" then I could see getting annoyed. But I honestly cannot fathom why anybody would be annoyed at "Why do I have that song stuck in my head?"

    He could have been whistling Largo's Theme, "It's A Small World", or some ditty I had never heard of, and the line would still be in character.
  • edited September 2009
    doggans wrote: »
    I reiterate: people get songs stuck in their head without knowing why all the time. Why does it not make sense for Guybrush to have a song stuck in his head and not know why, regardless of what the song is?

    MAYBE the line drew too much attention to the reference for some people, but it was still a perfectly logical in-universe thing for Guybrush to say. If he had explicitly said "Hey, that's Largo's music!" then I could see getting annoyed. But I honestly cannot fathom why anybody would be annoyed at "Why do I have that song stuck in my head?"

    He could have been whistling Largo's Theme, "It's A Small World", or some ditty I had never heard of, and the line would still be in character.

    This.
  • edited September 2009
    doggans wrote: »
    I reiterate: people get songs stuck in their head without knowing why all the time. Why does it not make sense for Guybrush to have a song stuck in his head and not know why, regardless of what the song is?

    MAYBE the line drew too much attention to the reference for some people, but it was still a perfectly logical in-universe thing for Guybrush to say. If he had explicitly said "Hey, that's Largo's music!" then I could see getting annoyed. But I honestly cannot fathom why anybody would be annoyed at "Why do I have that song stuck in my head?"

    He could have been whistling Largo's Theme, "It's A Small World", or some ditty I had never heard of, and the line would still be in character.

    And in Curse of Monkey Island, wasn't there a whole lengthy story that one of the barbershop pirates tells about his shipmates being plagued with a song that they couldn't get out of their head, and the song turned out to be the Monkey Island theme song? How is it that that joke gets a pass? Because this time it's from a song from an old game?

    Really, nitpicking on this particular joke is absurd. Personally, I thought the joke worked. Others didn't like it, and that's fine. But to say it's representative of the humor (or what's wrong with the humor) in the game is a bit of a stretch.
  • edited September 2009
    salmonmax wrote: »
    And in Curse of Monkey Island, wasn't there a whole lengthy story that one of the barbershop pirates tells about his shipmates being plagued with a song that they couldn't get out of their head, and the song turned out to be the Monkey Island theme song? How is it that that joke gets a pass? Because this time it's from a song from an old game?

    Well, if I may play devil's advocate, that joke gets a pass because it's in MI3, and Yahtzee only cares about MI1 and MI2.
  • edited September 2009
    It was about seven seconds. Better fill it with something rather than just Guybrush waiting for the merthing's return.
  • edited September 2009
    Tjibbbe wrote: »
    The only thing that I want to say on the matter is that it strikes me as curious that no one (and I mean no one) ever mentioned having any problem with the Largo-tune joke before Yahtzee talked about it. One of Yahtzee's talents is finding problems that weren't there before -- don't take him to seriously. It was a joke, and a funny joke at that. Don't get too worked up about it.
    I did groan at it as a bad joke when I saw it, but it wasn't offensively bad like something else. When something is just mildly annoying, it's less likely to come up. Unless you're Yahtzee, and you bank on these things for your shtick.

    It's not something that ruins the game, it's just "Yeah, that was pretty annoying, hahahaha."
    I have a question to all the Yahtzee fanboys here: Why is it that anyone who mindlessly calls every Yahtzee nitpick a "valid point" and think he is the son of god not a fanboy, but anybody who has a slight disagreement with him, let alone hate his guts a fanboy?

    Yahtzee fanboys are worse than any other type of fanboy, IMHO.
    If you want to say calling people fanboys is bad, you shouldn't be calling the fans of Yahtzee's reviews "fanboys".

    And I haven't seen anybody say someone else was a fanboy for "disagreeing" with Yahtzee and thus their opinion was invalid.
    I mean, seriously, Guybrush saying "Why do I have that tune stuck in my head" is a big deal? Seriously? Yahtzee exaggerates for comic effect and his fanboys think it's a big enough deal to destroy the game, and that's what pisses me off.
    First of all, nobody said it was game-destroying.

    Second of all, why the hell do you care what other people think about a game? It doesn't matter. At all. I can think the game sucks for any reason I damn well please, and it won't negatively affect you in any way.
    Haggis wrote: »
    And it's especially weird how it only applies to games.
    And anime(though they also have that annoying "Otaku" word).
    And science fiction.
    And pen and paper RPGs.
    And pretty much any nerdy fictional thing.
    Oh, and Macs/PCs/Linux.
    salmonmax wrote: »
    And in Curse of Monkey Island, wasn't there a whole lengthy story that one of the barbershop pirates tells about his shipmates being plagued with a song that they couldn't get out of their head, and the song turned out to be the Monkey Island theme song? How is it that that joke gets a pass? Because this time it's from a song from an old game?
    I didn't think that was funny either. =/

    In fact, it was WORSE in Curse, because it was a lot more build-up for a really annoyingly bad joke.

    And, of course, that's kind of part of the issue. Curse was rightfully lumped in with Escape and Tales as "Games Designed By Fans". It's not like that joke was in Monkey Island 2.
    But to say it's representative of the humor (or what's wrong with the humor) in the game is a bit of a stretch.
    To say it was a bad joke isn't, though.

    "A bit of a stretch" isn't too bad when you're talking about a reviewer that trades in obtusely negative criticisms
  • edited September 2009
    doggans wrote: »
    hell, even one of Guybrush's catchphrases comes from "Get Smart"!

    Which catchphrase?
  • edited September 2009
    "That's the second biggest..."
  • edited September 2009
    MI2 has phrases like "This isn't Monkey Island 1" and "You tried to sell me the minutes of a PTA meeting in the last game, claiming it was a map.", and IIRC, those are by far no the the only ones. So much for subtle references.

    P.S. I'm fine with those examples, by the way. But I think that the matter of disagreement in this thread is a little biassed.
  • edited September 2009
    By the way, I hate this Yahtzee guy. Not because of his arguments, though, but becuase of his manner of delivering them.
  • edited September 2009
    I have a question to all the Yahtzee fanboys here: Why is it that anyone who mindlessly calls every Yahtzee nitpick a "valid point" and think he is the son of god not a fanboy, but anybody who has a slight disagreement with him, let alone hate his guts a fanboy?

    Yahtzee fanboys are worse than any other type of fanboy, IMHO.

    Stop hiperventilating. IMHO.
    Tjibbbe wrote: »
    but the fact of the matter is that
    Curse of Monkey Island was an excellent game that brought in more fans than any other game, and it started the Lucasarts internet-fandom boom of the late 90s.

    Oh boy. Should I even start? :(
  • edited September 2009
    Farlander wrote: »
    By the way, I hate this Yahtzee guy. Not because of his arguments, though, but becuase of his manner of delivering them.
    It astounds me, time and time again, how many Monkey Island fans are completely and utterly incapable of taking a joke.
    Oh boy. Should I even start? :(
    You shouldn't. As true as Curse's inherent inferiority is, and as utterly baffling its grouping in with Monkey 1 and 2 may be, that's another discussion for a dozen other threads.
  • edited September 2009
    Yahtzee is amazing. Even with the TMI review taken into account.
  • edited September 2009
    It astounds me, time and time again, how many Monkey Island fans are completely and utterly incapable of taking a joke.

    For your information, I don't know what he was saying about MI, I didn't watch that vid. I just hate his style, it not only doesn't humor me, but irritates a lot.

    EDIT: Alright, duly noted, I know some things he was saying about MI because of this thread. And as I said, I don't hate him for THAT, whatever he said (and I still don't understand what's the big fuss about sequels hinting on, well, not sequels).
  • edited September 2009
    Tales got off lightly, especially when compared to his other review. You should never take them seriously, and most of them are just funny - loved how he got the makers of Infamous & Prototype to send in images of their main characters dressed in bikinis!
  • edited September 2009
    Haggis wrote: »
    Hey, that's not half bad! Very well, my fellow ludophile, let's stick it to these philistines, eh? Bunch of luddites, the lot of them!

    Yeah!
    I wondered why he didn't wait until the end of the season. Impatience, perhaps?

    Too close to Christmas AAA title releases, there were people on The Escapist's forums complaining he reviewed such a "non-mainstream game" even in the middle of summer when nothing else is coming out, can't imagine what it would be like if there were lots of other games being released at the same time.
  • edited September 2009
    With the exception of Portal that may be the easiest a game has got off him. :p
  • edited September 2009
    I'm just sick of everyone's MI1+2 nostalgia making them think that anything after those two games is pointless franchise milking, as though Curse was tripe or something.
  • edited September 2009
    RobD wrote: »
    With the exception of Portal that may be the easiest a game has got off him. :p
    You forget Psychonauts, and Silent Hill II. And Secret of Monkey Island/LeChuck's Revenge.
    Pale Man wrote: »
    I'm just sick of everyone's MI1+2 nostalgia making them think that anything after those two games is pointless franchise milking, as though Curse was tripe or something.
    Yahtzee made half the point very well: There just is no need for Curse. It'd be like finding a way around the death of Romeo and Juliet for a sequel. Now, the resulting story can be well-written, it can be great, it can have amazing direction and acting and everything else in the world that you could want out of a stage production.

    But it would still be a bad idea.
  • edited September 2009
    If Ron had made the Monkey Island III that he claims he was planning all along, would you still think it was a bad idea?
  • edited September 2009
    Yahtzee made half the point very well: There just is no need for Curse. It'd be like finding a way around the death of Romeo and Juliet for a sequel. Now, the resulting story can be well-written, it can be great, it can have amazing direction and acting and everything else in the world that you could want out of a stage production.

    But it would still be a bad idea.

    I don't necessarily think the ending of MI2 was as clearly defined as the deaths of Romeo and Juliet, and actually it'd be pretty hilarious if they did a zombie Romeo and Juliet play... I should go get started on that right now...
  • edited September 2009
    doggans wrote: »
    If Ron had made the Monkey Island III that he claims he was planning all along, would you still think it was a bad idea?
    Depends on the execution.

    For example, if he "worked around" the ending like CMI did, it would rob the ending of its power to me. And it would have been a bad idea.

    If it felt like a natural progression of the ending, that made it matter, then it wouldn't be bad.

    We can never know if Ron's MI3 would have been a good idea. At this point it wouldn't be, at the point of CMI's release it probably wouldn't be either.
    Pale Man wrote: »
    I don't necessarily think the ending of MI2 was as clearly defined as the deaths of Romeo and Juliet, and actually it'd be pretty hilarious if they did a zombie Romeo and Juliet play... I should go get started on that right now...
    No, but it's not something that should be "reversed" lightly, and that's what it seems like Curse did. It tossed aside and explained away the whole concept, which I didn't like at all.

    ...I didn't mean to have this conversation here. :(
Sign in to comment in this discussion.