the only thing that think didnt add up in this movie was the fact that Marty's parents doent remember him. i mean sure its 30 years later (speaking of the 1st movie) but even if for only a week he was still a huge influence in both their lives right? when he started getting older wouldnt they start saying, hey wait a minute, this guy looks really familiar.
Worse yet wouldn't george suspect loraine of cheating on her with marty? i mean calvin marty in the late 60s?
just a stupid point. it might make no sence but its something that popped to my head and figure i'd share it. of course dont mean no offence to the trilogy
Who's to say they don't know?
Maybe George and Lorraine wisened up sometime early in Marty's childhood when he accidentally set fire to the living room. Maybe they suspected-- certainly a sci-fi author like George could imagine the possibility.
Maybe Lorraine one night broached the subject with George-- they laughed at first, then sat in silence for half an hour processing it.
Lorraine suggests they ask Marty about it. George, being well versed in such science fiction concepts says "No! We can't... he doesn't even know about it yet! One day, when the time is right, he'll feel the need to tell us. Until then, we can't warn Marty or acknowledge it... his very existence may depend on it!"
dun DUN DAAAAAAA DA-DA-DA-DAAAA-DA-DAAAAAaaaaaaaaa
In my heart of hearts, I always believed that the penny eventually dropped for George and Lorraine. Considering how much they'd built up their "kiss of destiny" BEFORE Marty altered the timeline, it would be weird if they completely forgot about "Calvin Klein" in the new timeline.
I figure the "WTF" moment would occur either sometime in 1977, when they go see Star Wars, or in early 1985, when Lorraine is out buying new underwear for Marty...
And yes, they WOULD keep it a secret.
Mike "'Cause the Dinner Conversations Would Be AWK-ward" Stemmle
I figure the "WTF" moment would occur either sometime in 1977, when they go see Star Wars...
Maybe George McFly meet George Lucas somewhere and told him the story of the "real" Darth Vader, and then Back to the Future is actually the source of Star Wars, in one of these funny filmic time paradox (the soldier of the future being John Connors' father, Captain Kirk pawning in Star Trek IV the glasses that Dr. McCoy give him in Star Trek II, etc...)
Maybe George McFly meet George Lucas somewhere and told him the story of the "real" Darth Vader, and then Back to the Future is actually the source of Star Wars, in one of these funny filmic time paradox (the soldier of the future being John Connors' father, Captain Kirk pawning in Star Trek IV the glasses that Dr. McCoy give him in Star Trek II, etc...)
I actually imagine that the Star Wars films were very traumatic for George. Like his friends are all, "oh man, Star Wars is such an amazing epic movie!" And George is like, "I don't like horror movies." And his friends just stare at him.
Similar... I imagine George watching Star Trek and, with wide eyes, mouthing "Planet Vulcan???"
I'm sure Marty's stunt turned out to be totally therapy worthy.
I actually imagine that the Star Wars films were very traumatic for George. Like his friends are all, "oh man, Star Wars is such an amazing epic movie!" And George is like, "I don't like horror movies." And his friends just stare at him.
Similar... I imagine George watching Star Trek and, with wide eyes, mouthing "Planet Vulcan???"
I'm sure Marty's stunt turned out to be totally therapy worthy.
Yeah I was always wondering about that...
On the other hand, I wonder if he remembered the names right while writing, considering his book getting released in 1985 (quite some time after the initial appearence of marty).
The Calvin Klein thing, I imagine, would turn out to be a nice anecdote "Maybe he was that guy from back then".
What I found strange though was how Marty was the only one who didn't change at all, while his parents and siblings did. Surely growing up with a completely different family would make you different person. But that's where Lorraine and George might come into play... knowing that Marty HAS to meet up with Doc at that night in 1985 (maybe Doc even told them before Marty was born) to even exist, they might have steered his life towards that moment.
What I found strange though was how Marty was the only one who didn't change at all, while his parents and siblings did. Surely growing up with a completely different family would make you different person. But that's where Lorraine and George might come into play... knowing that Marty HAS to meet up with Doc at that night in 1985 (maybe Doc even told them before Marty was born) to even exist, they might have steered his life towards that moment.
That's because the Marty we follow into the new 1985 never lived that life. The Marty that experienced the new and improved life jumped back to 1955 the night before, just before Doc revealed the taped up letter to our Marty.
We've discovered that the Back to the Future time travelling relies less on sciency accuracy and more on dramatic presentation.
The whole one timeline vs. multiple timelines is a particle/wave sort of theory in the movies. Sometimes you fade in and out as though you are effecting your own timeline, and sometimes you are trapped in another timeline even though the general circumstances are the same.
Consider that when Marty first goes back to 1955, he is worrying about his own future and fading in and out, suggesting that he is effecting the timeline he came from and not the new one he created.
However in BttF2, when they go back to 1985B, they some how go back to Biff's altered timeline rather than their own... then Doc goes ahead and explains a time travel theory that seems to contradict their current predicament-- they should have initially traveled back to their non-rich-Biff past rather than into 1985B, 1985B should have been a timeline inaccessible to them... in Biff's new timeline, time-travelling Marty and Doc should have been a non-issue.
...but, dramatic effect dictates otherwise.
Particle/wave.
This is something we are constantly reminding ourselves in story meetings-- It's ok that so-and-so doesn't quite gel with timelines because the dramatic payoff outweighs the tiny plot discrepancy.
That's because the Marty we follow into the new 1985 never lived that life. The Marty that experienced the new and improved life jumped back to 1955 the night before, just before Doc revealed the taped up letter to our Marty.
We've discovered that the Back to the Future time travelling relies less on sciency accuracy and more on dramatic presentation.
The whole one timeline vs. multiple timelines is a particle/wave sort of theory in the movies. Sometimes you fade in and out as though you are effecting your own timeline, and sometimes you are trapped in another timeline even though the general circumstances are the same.
Consider that when Marty first goes back to 1955, he is worrying about his own future and fading in and out, suggesting that he is effecting the timeline he came from and not the new one he created.
However in BttF2, when they go back to 1985B, they some how go back to Biff's altered timeline rather than their own... then Doc goes ahead and explains a time travel theory that seems to contradict their current predicament-- they should have initially traveled back to their non-rich-Biff past rather than into 1985B, 1985B should have been a timeline inaccessible to them... in Biff's new timeline, time-travelling Marty and Doc should have been a non-issue.
...but, dramatic effect dictates otherwise.
Particle/wave.
This is something we are constantly reminding ourselves in story meetings-- It's ok that so-and-so doesn't quite gel with timelines because the dramatic payoff outweighs the tiny plot discrepancy.
Now I'm worried! The guy designing the game doesn't seem to have a solid grasp of the "Time Ripple Effect" by which the newly created timeline gradually replaced the old timeline, expanding slowly "outward" from the point of divergence, and generally reaching the time travelers themselves last. It doesn't make real-world sense, but it makes Back to the Future sense.
And the Time Ripple Effect did eventually catch up with Marty. In his confused argument with Old Biff in the Cafe 80s in BTTF2, he agitatedly defends his father (not realizing that Biff was talking about Future Marty). He very specifically says "George McFly was never a loser," words chosen to suggest that by this point, our Marty remembers growing up in the new, cool-George timeline.
Marty's fading out in BTTF1 is the result of the Time Ripple Effect as well, as the new timeline he created when he stopped his parents from meeting, the timeline in which he was never born, began to replace the timeline that he came from, erasing him from existence. Marty and Doc faced basically the same issue in 1985A: the world had already been "replaced," and if that ripple caught up to them, the time machine itself risked eventual erasure as well. I don't quite understand why you think that Marty and Doc should have landed in the timeline that they left from... although depending on the "speed" of the time ripple they could easily have landed in 1985 before it changed or while it was changing. But the speed of the time ripple does seem to vary at the movie's convenience.
Now I'm worried! The guy designing the game doesn't seem to have a solid grasp of the "Time Ripple Effect" by which the newly created timeline gradually replaced the old timeline, expanding slowly "outward" from the point of divergence, and generally reaching the time travelers themselves last. It doesn't make real-world sense, but it makes Back to the Future sense.
Respectfully, I believe I do have a grasp... and that grasp is that the rules change based on what the story needs. There are those that argue for multiple parallel time lines, and those (like Bob Gale) who argue for just one timeline that keeps getting rewritten... even though it tends to go both ways.
And the Time Ripple Effect did eventually catch up with Marty. In his confused argument with Old Biff in the Cafe 80s in BTTF2, he agitatedly defends his father (not realizing that Biff was talking about Future Marty). He very specifically says "George McFly was never a loser," words chosen to suggest that by this point, our Marty remembers growing up in the new, cool-George timeline.
You should watch that scene again (btw, I have the movies instantly available to review... so I'm double checking everything ,) because he's getting ready do defend George McFly who just yesterday he had finished helping converting from a loser to a winner. He's still quite the original Marty who is still adjusting to his new family.
Marty's fading out in BTTF1 is the result of the Time Ripple Effect as well, as the new timeline he created when he stopped his parents from meeting, the timeline in which he was never born, began to replace the timeline that he came from, erasing him from existence. Marty and Doc faced basically the same issue in 1985A: the world had already been "replaced," and if that ripple caught up to them, the time machine itself risked eventual erasure as well.
...and by that logic, wouldn't Marty sort of fade to Switzerland, and Doc fade to an asylum? Are they separate from the timeline or part of it? There was no indication that Doc was worried about time ripples catching up with them. He just felt they had to go back to 1955 to remove the almanac from play.
I know there was supposed to be a scene where Biff fades out in 2010 and Hill Valley starts to transition as Doc and Marty flee... But in 1985B, what's taking the ripples so long to take effect? (I have this interesting idea I'll explain further down.)
I don't quite understand why you think that Marty and Doc should have landed in the timeline that they left from... although depending on the "speed" of the time ripple they could easily have landed in 1985 before it changed or while it was changing. But the speed of the time ripple does seem to vary at the movie's convenience.
When Doc explains that they are in timeline B, he states that going forward in time would result in 2010B, and so you've got to go back to 1955 just as timeline B is beginning to diverge to remove the catalyst. So, going back from 1985B, you end up in 1955-proto-B.
Therefore, if you went back in time from 2010A, you should just end up in 1985A, because 1985B is an entirely different timeline... If the timelines were highways, Marty and Doc are driving down I-10 west, while Biff drives back up I-10 east, then he turns around at the I-210 west junction. If you drive back to some intermediate mile marker to intercept Biff... you are still on I-10, while Biff is on I-210.
What I was getting at is that Doc specifically describes discrete timelines and doesn't say anything about "time ripples." However, he totally ignores the idea, when he draws his timeline diagram, that they should have time jumped back to 1985A. The simple diagram totally suggests that that would happen... he draws the skew from 1955, but doesn't draw some sort of 'ripple' showing the DeLorean leaping from timeline A to B. Watch that scene again... it is a plot hole.
4th dimensionally it makes sense to me... but then, I took a philosophy class in college devoted to the study and perception of time in media and culture... so I've been trained to overthink it. But if you have something to cite, let me know... change my mind!
Oh God why do I even know this? Carry on
So, that idea about ripples... I had brought up the idea that photos and stuff go fading in and out because the results of the photograph are based on decisions being made by people... if they are convicted to a destiny, then the photo is perfect. If they are convicted to something other than their destiny, then the photo is erased. If convictions are wishy-washy, then things fade in and out.
However, if someone does something decisive, then the future just changes-- BAM. George shoves the guy at the dance and kisses Lorraine, and BAM, Marty is 100% all of a sudden. Again-- dramatic effect.
I won't concede any of my arguments, but your ability to argue it on this level has given me a lot more faith in the project (Although your use of 2010 instead of 2015 is alternately worrying and intriguing)
I will comment on this though:
When Doc explains that they are in timeline B, he states that going forward in time would result in 2010B, and so you've got to go back to 1955 just as timeline B is beginning to diverge to remove the catalyst. So, going back from 1985B, you end up in 1955-proto-B.
I understand what you were going for, now. Thing is, you can't exactly follow any one person's timestream, you can only follow the time machine. And in that case, the issue isn't that it took Marty and Doc back to 1985-A, the issue is that it took Biff forward to 2015 Prime in the first place. It should have taken him to 2015-A, by Doc's very logic, so Marty and Doc couldn't have gotten the time machine back at all if the timelines were really split like that.
Although that does fit pretty well with the "there's only one timeline" theory, it also fits with your "when it's convenient" theory
(oh hey, that was brought up earlier in the thread. context has changed, though)
Also pretty interesting is the fact that Doc felt comfortable enough to leave Jennifer in 1985-A, believing (apparently correctly) that the world would "change around her." It's made clear that Marty-A and Doc-A are far away and unable to interfere, but no real mention is made of Jennifer-A. Her dad's car from the first movie is at the house, suggesting that it's still her house, so how weird would that be if her alternate self or alternate dad found her out there. Strange that Doc didn't even bring that up given how worried he was about her meeting her future self, but I guess he just figured that the problem would either resolve itself when they restored the timeline, or just wouldn't matter at all if they failed
Also pretty interesting is the fact that Doc felt comfortable enough to leave Jennifer in 1985-A, believing (apparently correctly) that the world would "change around her." It's made clear that Marty-A and Doc-A are far away and unable to interfere, but no real mention is made of Jennifer-A. Her dad's car from the first movie is at the house, suggesting that it's still her house, so how weird would that be if her alternate self or alternate dad found her out there. Strange that Doc didn't even bring that up given how worried he was about her meeting her future self, but I guess he just figured that the problem would either resolve itself when they restored the timeline, or just wouldn't matter at all if they failed
I know! The more you argue it, the more you find inconsistencies. This is our daily chore. :P
Also, yeah-- I meant 2015. I've got 2010 on the brain because... well... it is 2010 right now.
Also, in a deleted scene, it was shown that Old Biff seemed to collapse and then vanish after getting out of the time machine, because his changed past resulted in his death sometime before 2015, so his old self was erased from existence... but the scene was removed because it was confusing.
How you figure it's confusing? Taking that OUT & not leaving it in IS te confusing part. Dangeresque made a point ... and, had they left that in the movie, a lot LESS people would have been scratching their heads walking out of a theater years ago & still today. LOL
How you figure it's confusing? Taking that OUT & not leaving it in IS te confusing part. Dangeresque made a point ... and, had they left that in the movie, a lot LESS people would have been scratching their heads walking out of a theater years ago & still today. LOL
I didn't decide that it was confusing, the producers and test audiences apparently did.
Just one stupid question... does the Doc from BTTF 1 (the one who gets shot by the lybians and wears the bulletproff vest) already knows that he'll be end up in 1885 and that he was going to build a new time machine? (the train, of course)
Just one stupid question... does the Doc from BTTF 1 (the one who gets shot by the lybians and wears the bulletproff vest) already knows that he'll be end up in 1885 and that he was going to build a new time machine? (the train, of course)
No, he wouldn't know, because Doc and Marty (and Old Biff) haven't gone back to 1955 a second time yet.
I'm not sure it's a huge inconsistency or not, so I'm asking here, among fans .
Doc states, when they're in hell-1985, that while there are several alternate timelines, they can only go in the past, or the future, of the one they are in.
He states that going "back to the future" while being in hell-1985 would lead them to hell-future, and not the one they visited earlier, where Biff got the almanac.
So, how is it even possible that Biff went to the past, gave himself the almanac (which creates the new timeline, "hell") and then COMES BACK to the original future ?
Also, what a dumb person, obviously I wouldn't have cared about giving back the only thing that could stop my evil plan to the only people that could ever stop me, but hey ;D .
So, how is it even possible that Biff went to the past, gave himself the almanac (which creates the new timeline, "hell") and then COMES BACK to the original future ?
Whatever ramifications caused by Biff's actions that spilled into the year 2015 wouldn't necessarily be noticeable, at least not in such a way that a movie with BTTF's tone and running time restrictions could have realistically conveyed to the audience. And even if Biff giving the almanac to himself in 1985 did make Hill Valley 2015 a significantly different place visually than it was when Marty and Doc first saw it, they would never have noticed it because the timeline would have changed around them and they would only have memory of the new timeline (as Doc explains when Marty protests leaving Jennifer and Einstein behind when they realize they have to go back to 1955). Obviously, it doesn't all add up under close scrutiny, but it works in a movie logic kind of way.
The movie did address the alteration of the 2015 timeline in a deleted scene where Biff fades out of existence. In the final cut, Biff is seen collapsing in pain shortly after returning to 2015 in the Delorean. Originally, this went on a bit longer, showing Biff literally disappearing the same way Marty almost did in BTTF1. The reason was because he'd returned to a future where he didn't exist anymore, because in the timeline where he is rich and powerful, he ends up getting shot (as speculated by Bob Gale) by Lorraine in the 90s.
The movie did address the alteration of the 2015 timeline in a deleted scene where Biff fades out of existence. In the final cut, Biff is seen collapsing in pain shortly after returning to 2015 in the Delorean. Originally, this went on a bit longer, showing Biff literally disappearing the same way Marty almost did in BTTF1. The reason was because he'd returned to a future where he didn't exist anymore, because in the timeline where he is rich and powerful, he ends up getting shot (as speculated by Bob Gale) by Lorraine in the 90s.
Wow I had no idea! Thank you. It's great stuff !
Whatever ramifications caused by Biff's actions that spilled into the year 2015 wouldn't necessarily be noticeable, at least not in such a way that a movie with BTTF's tone and running time restrictions could have realistically conveyed to the audience. And even if Biff giving the almanac to himself in 1985 did make Hill Valley 2015 a significantly different place visually than it was when Marty and Doc first saw it, they would never have noticed it because the timeline would have changed around them and they would only have memory of the new timeline (as Doc explains when Marty protests leaving Jennifer and Einstein behind when they realize they have to go back to 1955). Obviously, it doesn't all add up under close scrutiny, but it works in a movie logic kind of way.
It's not really possible they couldn't notice change. If they didn't notice the future changed, that means they had knowledge of what happened in the new past too. If the future becomes their reality that means the past of this future also his (in my opinion). If, for exemple, they don't notice in the future that, Biff is all mighty, why would they in the past?
The only thing possible is, as you said, that they didn't see anything different, not that they couldn't. And that's actually a good explanation, since the second they got Jenifer out, Biff came back. They couldn't see if George was dead or something.
And now that you mention it, since Biff was affected by the changes, shouldn't Marty and Doc change too ?
As for Jennifer, I'm not really sure about that but... Letting her in an alternate timeline and going back to the past to change it...
Does that mean there aren't alternate timelines but only ONE timeline and no matter what if something changes it replaces everything ... ? O_o
They can only travel to one timeline but I wouldn't say the others just get erased or whatever ...
Now what's weird, is that if Jennifer is affected by changes in the past, why aren't Marty and Doc when Biff changed it ?
Their past selves had pretty different lives (and probably never time travelled).
We know that a past self affects the future self... So we have to guess that the past Marty and Doc aren't the real Marty and Doc but the ones from another reality, but doesn't that mean Marty also created an alternate timeline in the first movie, and didn't really go back to his ?
What puzzles me about this is that if Biff was all powerful or dead in the future, he wouldn't go back in time to give the almanac to his younger self. If his younger self didn't get the book, then wouldn't time correct itself or possibly cause a paradox?
What puzzles me about this is that if Biff was all powerful or dead in the future, he wouldn't go back in time to give the almanac to his younger self. If his younger self didn't get the book, then wouldn't time correct itself or possibly cause a paradox?
back to the future is full of paradoxes, but it works round them. If Marty had been erased from existence in the first movie he would have still been around in the past till he disappeared, the same with biff. He got killed between 1985 and 2015 so he was erased from existence but there was still a version of him in the past who altered things.
It's not really possible they couldn't notice change. If they didn't notice the future changed, that means they had knowledge of what happened in the new past too. If the future becomes their reality that means the past of this future also his (in my opinion). If, for exemple, they don't notice in the future that, Biff is all mighty, why would they in the past?
The only thing possible is, as you said, that they didn't see anything different, not that they couldn't. And that's actually a good explanation, since the second they got Jenifer out, Biff came back. They couldn't see if George was dead or something.
And now that you mention it, since Biff was affected by the changes, shouldn't Marty and Doc change too ?
As for Jennifer, I'm not really sure about that but... Letting her in an alternate timeline and going back to the past to change it...
Does that mean there aren't alternate timelines but only ONE timeline and no matter what if something changes it replaces everything ... ? O_o
They can only travel to one timeline but I wouldn't say the others just get erased or whatever ...
Now what's weird, is that if Jennifer is affected by changes in the past, why aren't Marty and Doc when Biff changed it ?
Their past selves had pretty different lives (and probably never time travelled).
We know that a past self affects the future self... So we have to guess that the past Marty and Doc aren't the real Marty and Doc but the ones from another reality, but doesn't that mean Marty also created an alternate timeline in the first movie, and didn't really go back to his ?
The future did change around them in 2015 but they were in an alleyway at the time, even the director said that was intentional. And the past self only accepts the future self if somehow they made it so their not born or their past self dies as a result of the future self. There is another Marty and Doc in 2015 with very different lives but when they went to 2015 it was an alternate version of marty and jennifer anyway, because marty had the accident and so that version of marty and jennifer never went forward in time. They were duplicated tho in 1985, as Marty was in boarding school and Doc was committed, and another Jennifer was off somewhere, no one knows. What should have happened tho was they should have added a scene where after Marty, Doc and Jennifer leave there should have been a gravestone saying when Biff was killed, because now there is no evidence that he was.
back to the future is full of paradoxes, but it works round them. If Marty had been erased from existence in the first movie he would have still been around in the past till he disappeared, the same with biff. He got killed between 1985 and 2015 so he was erased from existence but there was still a version of him in the past who altered things.
That makes sense, I never thought about it that way. Thanks:)
what we will never ever know is if doc still existed in 2015 or what he would of looked like , knowone knows doc browns age in 1955 1985 or in 2015 if he even existed untill then , id imagine if doc was still alive in 2015 he would be about 80 or 90 years old !
Well, in fact, it's weird they can meet themselves in the future.
Each time they go to the future, they disappear from the present. Indeed they will come back but they're not supposed to be able to witness that future, since the present (past) is what is changing the future. They're going in a time period where they disappeared in the present, so they should be missing in the future...
Well, in fact, it's weird they can meet themselves in the future.
Each time they go to the future, they disappear from the present. Indeed they will come back but they're not supposed to be able to witness that future, since the present (past) is what is changing the future. They're going in a time period where they disappeared in the present, so they should be missing in the future...
Yes, that issue is confusing, but the future mostly acknowledges the fact that they go back to the past in the end and go on with their lifes. Makes total sense since they still have the Delorean.
If going to the future had that kind of a problem, Doc and Marty would never be able to see the "true" future since when they're absent from a big portion of a lifetime, the chain of events would be changed and it would change itself back whenever Doc and Marty go back to the past.
That's precisely the point, they don't see the true future.
What happened in the end isn't what they saw.
If the future acknowledges they are going back to their time, shouldn't the future also acknowledge what is to come, and what they will do in the past ? Thus showing the exact future that will happen once they're done with time travel.
I understand the problem is that the whole "plot" of the movie would be ruined one way or the other, though ^^'.
That's precisely the point, they don't see the true future.
What happened in the end isn't what they saw.
If the future acknowledges they are going back to their time, shouldn't the future also acknowledge what is to come, and what they will do in the past ? Thus showing the exact future that will happen once they're done with time travel.
I understand the problem is that the whole "plot" of the movie would be ruined one way or the other, though ^^'.
It is strange, but the way I see it is the future they saw is the future that would have happened had they not gone to the future, cause doc never went to get them, so they never went to 1880 and marty never got over being called chicken, so he ended up breaking his guitar hand and ruining his career. So if they went back to the future after the events of back to the future 3 the future wouldn't be the same and marty and jennifer would be living a better life.
It's not really possible they couldn't notice change. If they didn't notice the future changed, that means they had knowledge of what happened in the new past too. If the future becomes their reality that means the past of this future also his (in my opinion). If, for exemple, they don't notice in the future that, Biff is all mighty, why would they in the past?
The only thing possible is, as you said, that they didn't see anything different, not that they couldn't. And that's actually a good explanation, since the second they got Jenifer out, Biff came back. They couldn't see if George was dead or something.
And now that you mention it, since Biff was affected by the changes, shouldn't Marty and Doc change too ?
As for Jennifer, I'm not really sure about that but... Letting her in an alternate timeline and going back to the past to change it...
Does that mean there aren't alternate timelines but only ONE timeline and no matter what if something changes it replaces everything ... ? O_o
They can only travel to one timeline but I wouldn't say the others just get erased or whatever ...
Now what's weird, is that if Jennifer is affected by changes in the past, why aren't Marty and Doc when Biff changed it ?
Their past selves had pretty different lives (and probably never time travelled).
We know that a past self affects the future self... So we have to guess that the past Marty and Doc aren't the real Marty and Doc but the ones from another reality, but doesn't that mean Marty also created an alternate timeline in the first movie, and didn't really go back to his ?
Of course he never went back to his reality, if he did then doc brown would be dead and his parents would be losers. He created an alternate reality where events were changed. Doc tho should remember a different marty who grew up differently. Jennifer should also know a different Marty, as she is from the same reality marty came back to. So Marty now has the same memories he's always had but they don't match anyone else's, so he can't talk about the past cause its not his past anymore. I wonder if anyone notices he doesn't remember his childhood properly, that he remembers a childhood a lot different from the one he should remember. The ending of back to the future is a good ending but also sad as everyone he knows are different or they knew someone else called marty and he's not the marty they knew.
That would cause an immediate paradox, since if they go to the future and see the events and want to change it, future will mirror it immediately right after they come to future. But at the same time, future will be corrected in the same moment they arrive so they won't want to change the events in the past, and then the future will be left unchanged, and so on...
...yeah let's say it's for the good of movie's plot.
Wow. This thread got really deep pretty quick! Good suggestions y'all. I had never considered before the issue that seeing/meeting one's future self, automatically assumes that the "present" self visiting the future does make it back to the present time to grow-up or age properly. Therefore it already must take into account an event which hasn't happened yet.
Oh geez - headache time. Because when you view this with Einstein's first experience in BTTF1 - Doc sends him 1 minute into the future. Marty and Doc lived that minute without Einstein's presense. Then they "caught up" to the time machine - a trip which was instantaneous to the traveller inside the car. So the "present" Einstein because the only Einstein in the future. He wasn't there to age in that minute and as far as we know - there is not a "future" Einstein for the dog to meet.
All that being said, it's really fun to discuss. I fully understand that it's just a movie and there must be some suspension of belief for it to work. Does this make us nerds?
One thing that doesn't make sense about the BTTF trilogy is that Marty avoiding the car accident at the end of 3 has no paradoxical effects.
According to 2015 Lorraine, much of 1985 Marty's future hinges on that accident happening, which suggests that Marty wouldn't live in a neighborhood that the police think is trashy (among other additional changes) which would then have changed parts of Marty and Doc's efforts to rescue Jennifer (if not the whole trip to 2015 entirely) which would possibly keep Jennifer from meeting herself (which can create a paradox) and if it changed 2015 Biff's location at one point so that he never learned the DeLorean was a time machine, it would never bring Biff to steal the DeLorean and Marty would never get stuck in time and be forced to learn how to properly deflect insults... which brings us back to it affecting whether the car accident itself would have happened or not (which creates another paradox.)
Basically Marty not having that car accident can cause several possible paradoxes, but Doc seems to just say that his future "isn't written yet."
The future isn't written yet. As far as I understand it, the future they DeLorean would travel to would be that which is more likely destination if all things continue as they are, but any given interjection (such as Marty's learning to deflect insults), can and will change the destination point as it were.
That future existed at the end of BTTF part I and into part II as Marty had yet to learn to deflect the insults, and still would've crashed the car at that point, and as such future still happened for Marty, Doc and Jennifer, just like the past happened for Marty where George was a chicken because they exist 'outside' of the flow. If they change the past so that they no longer exist (i.e. earlier than their departure point), that's when they start to get erased, but they've got free reign to do whatever the hell they like in the future. Even though that future won't happen due to the car crash not happening, Doc, Marty and Jennifer still visited it, and still have memories of it, just like they do of alt 1985.
The only real "contradiction" with changing the future, is that Doc would even bother to try to help Marty's kids in 2015, given that what happens in that iteration of the timeline could easily end up not mattering at all, as is likely the case in the no-car-crash timeline. This is one of those things that they wrote as kind of a throw-away gag for the end of the first movie, and then were kind of stuck with and just had to go with it for the sequel.
Wow. This thread got really deep pretty quick! Good suggestions y'all. I had never considered before the issue that seeing/meeting one's future self, automatically assumes that the "present" self visiting the future does make it back to the present time to grow-up or age properly. Therefore it already must take into account an event which hasn't happened yet.
Oh geez - headache time. Because when you view this with Einstein's first experience in BTTF1 - Doc sends him 1 minute into the future. Marty and Doc lived that minute without Einstein's presense. Then they "caught up" to the time machine - a trip which was instantaneous to the traveller inside the car. So the "present" Einstein because the only Einstein in the future. He wasn't there to age in that minute and as far as we know - there is not a "future" Einstein for the dog to meet.
All that being said, it's really fun to discuss. I fully understand that it's just a movie and there must be some suspension of belief for it to work. Does this make us nerds?
It definitely doesn't make us nerds. This exact problem is present in SO many medias about time travel...
BTTF is just helping us explaining it.
You are right about Einstein.
That's why people assumed that, when they go to the future, they actually go to an alternate reality.
For instance, in BTTF, the past (and future) isn't written. Which means that when they go to the future, they witness a future where they actually never went into the future to check it out.
It's also why there are their "future selves", it's not their future.
The only thing that is bothering here, is that the "time" is not a "living being" which can just choose what to consider or not. It can't just decide "ok I'm creating a timeline without the time travelling machine at this exact point". It's too arbitrary.
I just believe that Doc is wrong.
I see BTTF more like "silders" actually.
Cauz, we still didn't explain why, while Biff and Jennifer are "changed", Marty and Doc aren't.
Their past selves never time travelled, thus, they should disappear because in no way their past selves (with Doc being convicted and all) could ever time travel and become the guys they are.
That means Marty and Doc are "out of time" and are not affected by the changes, but absolutely nothing explains that.
We could think it's related to the delorean, but it's not possible since Biff used it (which means Marty and Doc were just "random people" , just like Jennifer, with no ability to time travel whatsoever)
All we can guess, besides plot holes, is that those past selves aren't their past selves. Which would contradict Doc.
Marty and Doc as we know them don't exist in this "hell timeline", and yet, they don't disappear.
And there are "doubles". Following that logic, Biff shouldn't disappear.
The exact same problem exist in BTTF 1.
Marty changed his whole life, and yet HE doesn't change. Why that ? Why would his whole existence stop if his parents don't make out ? Since changing his whole life changing doesn't seem to have any effect on him.
Also, we didn't have to see what the "new" Marty actually did in the past. (the one who left when "our" Marty went back)
The new Marty presumably did the same thing as 'our Marty' - up until the point of arrival in '55, the whole situation with Biff, George and Lorraine haven't been changed by ANY Marty. That Marty would still need to convince his old man to stick up for himself, etc etc. I still think the 2015 versions we see would be the future versions IF Marty and Doc returned there and then. Marty didn't really learn to stop reacting to being called 'chicken' until after they've left 2015.
The alt-85 is a puzzler, for sure. I guess....and this is only a guess, that it took Marty the whole length of BttF1 to fade out of existance, even though the key change took place when he pushed his dad out of the way of his maternal grandfather's motor. So if they'd stayed in '85, both Doc and Marty would've eventually faded out of existance (operating outside of the 'flow' via the DeLorean seems to mean this is a delayed reaction), but they don't because within the space of an evening they've already traveled back to 1955. I can only assume that it does take time for events to catch up to time travellers outside of the flow. The reality shift that Jen would've experienced would have happened instantaneously though, as it's the whole reality changing, and not an individual outside of that flow.
I don't think there's any alternate reality at all, just one that can be changed many times (although with each change, there's more and more risk of meeting a past version of themselves and causing an ACTUAL paradox).
It definitely doesn't make us nerds. This exact problem is present in SO many medias about time travel...
BTTF is just helping us explaining it.
You are right about Einstein.
That's why people assumed that, when they go to the future, they actually go to an alternate reality.
For instance, in BTTF, the past (and future) isn't written. Which means that when they go to the future, they witness a future where they actually never went into the future to check it out.
It's also why there are their "future selves", it's not their future.
The only thing that is bothering here, is that the "time" is not a "living being" which can just choose what to consider or not. It can't just decide "ok I'm creating a timeline without the time travelling machine at this exact point". It's too arbitrary.
I just believe that Doc is wrong.
I see BTTF more like "silders" actually.
Cauz, we still didn't explain why, while Biff and Jennifer are "changed", Marty and Doc aren't.
Their past selves never time travelled, thus, they should disappear because in no way their past selves (with Doc being convicted and all) could ever time travel and become the guys they are.
That means Marty and Doc are "out of time" and are not affected by the changes, but absolutely nothing explains that.
We could think it's related to the delorean, but it's not possible since Biff used it (which means Marty and Doc were just "random people" , just like Jennifer, with no ability to time travel whatsoever)
All we can guess, besides plot holes, is that those past selves aren't their past selves. Which would contradict Doc.
Marty and Doc as we know them don't exist in this "hell timeline", and yet, they don't disappear.
And there are "doubles". Following that logic, Biff shouldn't disappear.
The exact same problem exist in BTTF 1.
Marty changed his whole life, and yet HE doesn't change. Why that ? Why would his whole existence stop if his parents don't make out ? Since changing his whole life changing doesn't seem to have any effect on him.
Also, we didn't have to see what the "new" Marty actually did in the past. (the one who left when "our" Marty went back)
I totally agree, the Marty that went back in time and changed things actually created a different Marty, with new memories and a different life, so why would he disappear if his duplicate was never born or if his younger self died. Time travel created a new reality, a reality marty never came from, so if he was never born it shouldn't affect the Marty who time travelled cause its not the same marty anymore. Its the same for biff, he should never have died cause he created a duplicate, and it was that duplicate who died, so why did that affect the biff from an alternate future where he was alive and well? I read an article about that once and i totally agreed with it. What changes they make in the past should not affect the time travellers themselves as they are not from the new reality being created, another reality is replacing that reality, so no photos should disappear, as they are from the old reality. It makes no sense that the time travellers should disappear if they directly cause there death or cause themselves not to be born, nothing should happen, because they originally came from the reality left behind.
I totally agree, the Marty that went back in time and changed things actually created a different Marty, with new memories and a different life, so why would he disappear if his duplicate was never born or if his younger self died. Time travel created a new reality, a reality marty never came from, so if he was never born it shouldn't affect the Marty who time travelled cause its not the same marty anymore. Its the same for biff, he should never have died cause he created a duplicate, and it was that duplicate who died, so why did that affect the biff from an alternate future where he was alive and well? I read an article about that once and i totally agreed with it. What changes they make in the past should not affect the time travellers themselves as they are not from the new reality being created, another reality is replacing that reality, so no photos should disappear, as they are from the old reality. It makes no sense that the time travellers should disappear if they directly cause there death or cause themselves not to be born, nothing should happen, because they originally came from the reality left behind.
By reading you I just realized that there CAN'T be ONE timeline, as Doc thought.
Since we all agree that original Marty created a new "Marty" (who lived a different life but still time traveled), no one ever wondered WHERE this new "Marty" came back ?
Obviously not in HIS timeline (which is where our Marty comes back). The only explaination for that is that he created yet ANOTHER alternate reality (which is actually normal since he wasn't the exact same Marty, you know what the "butterfly effect" is right ? The slighest change can have dramatic impact) .
That means that no matter what, Marty can never go back to his reality. But this also means, that the timeline just doesn't erase itself, the people in it are still living it.
Cauz it's simple :
- Solution A : New Marty didn't change much things in the past, he created the same timeline. Well it's impossible, or he should have come back to his timeline at the same time as our real Marty (since Marty "never left" since he comes back only 1 second after he left)
So it's unlikely
- Solution B : He did create an alternate timeline, and since he did that AFTER our Marty, we have the proof the timeline didn't erase itself, but new Marty just went into another one.
Comments
Maybe George and Lorraine wisened up sometime early in Marty's childhood when he accidentally set fire to the living room. Maybe they suspected-- certainly a sci-fi author like George could imagine the possibility.
Maybe Lorraine one night broached the subject with George-- they laughed at first, then sat in silence for half an hour processing it.
Lorraine suggests they ask Marty about it. George, being well versed in such science fiction concepts says "No! We can't... he doesn't even know about it yet! One day, when the time is right, he'll feel the need to tell us. Until then, we can't warn Marty or acknowledge it... his very existence may depend on it!"
dun DUN DAAAAAAA DA-DA-DA-DAAAA-DA-DAAAAAaaaaaaaaa
...
I'm not sayin'-- I'm just sayin' :cool:
In my heart of hearts, I always believed that the penny eventually dropped for George and Lorraine. Considering how much they'd built up their "kiss of destiny" BEFORE Marty altered the timeline, it would be weird if they completely forgot about "Calvin Klein" in the new timeline.
I figure the "WTF" moment would occur either sometime in 1977, when they go see Star Wars, or in early 1985, when Lorraine is out buying new underwear for Marty...
And yes, they WOULD keep it a secret.
Mike "'Cause the Dinner Conversations Would Be AWK-ward" Stemmle
I actually imagine that the Star Wars films were very traumatic for George. Like his friends are all, "oh man, Star Wars is such an amazing epic movie!" And George is like, "I don't like horror movies." And his friends just stare at him.
Similar... I imagine George watching Star Trek and, with wide eyes, mouthing "Planet Vulcan???"
I'm sure Marty's stunt turned out to be totally therapy worthy.
Yeah I was always wondering about that...
On the other hand, I wonder if he remembered the names right while writing, considering his book getting released in 1985 (quite some time after the initial appearence of marty).
The Calvin Klein thing, I imagine, would turn out to be a nice anecdote "Maybe he was that guy from back then".
That's because the Marty we follow into the new 1985 never lived that life. The Marty that experienced the new and improved life jumped back to 1955 the night before, just before Doc revealed the taped up letter to our Marty.
We've discovered that the Back to the Future time travelling relies less on sciency accuracy and more on dramatic presentation.
The whole one timeline vs. multiple timelines is a particle/wave sort of theory in the movies. Sometimes you fade in and out as though you are effecting your own timeline, and sometimes you are trapped in another timeline even though the general circumstances are the same.
Consider that when Marty first goes back to 1955, he is worrying about his own future and fading in and out, suggesting that he is effecting the timeline he came from and not the new one he created.
However in BttF2, when they go back to 1985B, they some how go back to Biff's altered timeline rather than their own... then Doc goes ahead and explains a time travel theory that seems to contradict their current predicament-- they should have initially traveled back to their non-rich-Biff past rather than into 1985B, 1985B should have been a timeline inaccessible to them... in Biff's new timeline, time-travelling Marty and Doc should have been a non-issue.
...but, dramatic effect dictates otherwise.
Particle/wave.
This is something we are constantly reminding ourselves in story meetings-- It's ok that so-and-so doesn't quite gel with timelines because the dramatic payoff outweighs the tiny plot discrepancy.
Now I'm worried!
And the Time Ripple Effect did eventually catch up with Marty. In his confused argument with Old Biff in the Cafe 80s in BTTF2, he agitatedly defends his father (not realizing that Biff was talking about Future Marty). He very specifically says "George McFly was never a loser," words chosen to suggest that by this point, our Marty remembers growing up in the new, cool-George timeline.
Marty's fading out in BTTF1 is the result of the Time Ripple Effect as well, as the new timeline he created when he stopped his parents from meeting, the timeline in which he was never born, began to replace the timeline that he came from, erasing him from existence. Marty and Doc faced basically the same issue in 1985A: the world had already been "replaced," and if that ripple caught up to them, the time machine itself risked eventual erasure as well. I don't quite understand why you think that Marty and Doc should have landed in the timeline that they left from... although depending on the "speed" of the time ripple they could easily have landed in 1985 before it changed or while it was changing. But the speed of the time ripple does seem to vary at the movie's convenience.
Oh God why do I even know this? Carry on
I know there was supposed to be a scene where Biff fades out in 2010 and Hill Valley starts to transition as Doc and Marty flee... But in 1985B, what's taking the ripples so long to take effect? (I have this interesting idea I'll explain further down.) When Doc explains that they are in timeline B, he states that going forward in time would result in 2010B, and so you've got to go back to 1955 just as timeline B is beginning to diverge to remove the catalyst. So, going back from 1985B, you end up in 1955-proto-B.
Therefore, if you went back in time from 2010A, you should just end up in 1985A, because 1985B is an entirely different timeline... If the timelines were highways, Marty and Doc are driving down I-10 west, while Biff drives back up I-10 east, then he turns around at the I-210 west junction. If you drive back to some intermediate mile marker to intercept Biff... you are still on I-10, while Biff is on I-210.
What I was getting at is that Doc specifically describes discrete timelines and doesn't say anything about "time ripples." However, he totally ignores the idea, when he draws his timeline diagram, that they should have time jumped back to 1985A. The simple diagram totally suggests that that would happen... he draws the skew from 1955, but doesn't draw some sort of 'ripple' showing the DeLorean leaping from timeline A to B. Watch that scene again... it is a plot hole.
4th dimensionally it makes sense to me... but then, I took a philosophy class in college devoted to the study and perception of time in media and culture... so I've been trained to overthink it. But if you have something to cite, let me know... change my mind!
So, that idea about ripples... I had brought up the idea that photos and stuff go fading in and out because the results of the photograph are based on decisions being made by people... if they are convicted to a destiny, then the photo is perfect. If they are convicted to something other than their destiny, then the photo is erased. If convictions are wishy-washy, then things fade in and out.
However, if someone does something decisive, then the future just changes-- BAM. George shoves the guy at the dance and kisses Lorraine, and BAM, Marty is 100% all of a sudden. Again-- dramatic effect.
Particle/wave.
I will comment on this though:
I understand what you were going for, now. Thing is, you can't exactly follow any one person's timestream, you can only follow the time machine. And in that case, the issue isn't that it took Marty and Doc back to 1985-A, the issue is that it took Biff forward to 2015 Prime in the first place. It should have taken him to 2015-A, by Doc's very logic, so Marty and Doc couldn't have gotten the time machine back at all if the timelines were really split like that.
Although that does fit pretty well with the "there's only one timeline" theory, it also fits with your "when it's convenient" theory
(oh hey, that was brought up earlier in the thread. context has changed, though)
Also pretty interesting is the fact that Doc felt comfortable enough to leave Jennifer in 1985-A, believing (apparently correctly) that the world would "change around her." It's made clear that Marty-A and Doc-A are far away and unable to interfere, but no real mention is made of Jennifer-A. Her dad's car from the first movie is at the house, suggesting that it's still her house, so how weird would that be if her alternate self or alternate dad found her out there. Strange that Doc didn't even bring that up given how worried he was about her meeting her future self, but I guess he just figured that the problem would either resolve itself when they restored the timeline, or just wouldn't matter at all if they failed
I know! The more you argue it, the more you find inconsistencies. This is our daily chore. :P
Also, yeah-- I meant 2015. I've got 2010 on the brain because... well... it is 2010 right now.
How you figure it's confusing? Taking that OUT & not leaving it in IS te confusing part. Dangeresque made a point ... and, had they left that in the movie, a lot LESS people would have been scratching their heads walking out of a theater years ago & still today. LOL
I didn't decide that it was confusing, the producers and test audiences apparently did.
No, he wouldn't know, because Doc and Marty (and Old Biff) haven't gone back to 1955 a second time yet.
Doc states, when they're in hell-1985, that while there are several alternate timelines, they can only go in the past, or the future, of the one they are in.
He states that going "back to the future" while being in hell-1985 would lead them to hell-future, and not the one they visited earlier, where Biff got the almanac.
So, how is it even possible that Biff went to the past, gave himself the almanac (which creates the new timeline, "hell") and then COMES BACK to the original future ?
Also, what a dumb person, obviously I wouldn't have cared about giving back the only thing that could stop my evil plan to the only people that could ever stop me, but hey ;D .
Whatever ramifications caused by Biff's actions that spilled into the year 2015 wouldn't necessarily be noticeable, at least not in such a way that a movie with BTTF's tone and running time restrictions could have realistically conveyed to the audience. And even if Biff giving the almanac to himself in 1985 did make Hill Valley 2015 a significantly different place visually than it was when Marty and Doc first saw it, they would never have noticed it because the timeline would have changed around them and they would only have memory of the new timeline (as Doc explains when Marty protests leaving Jennifer and Einstein behind when they realize they have to go back to 1955). Obviously, it doesn't all add up under close scrutiny, but it works in a movie logic kind of way.
The movie did address the alteration of the 2015 timeline in a deleted scene where Biff fades out of existence. In the final cut, Biff is seen collapsing in pain shortly after returning to 2015 in the Delorean. Originally, this went on a bit longer, showing Biff literally disappearing the same way Marty almost did in BTTF1. The reason was because he'd returned to a future where he didn't exist anymore, because in the timeline where he is rich and powerful, he ends up getting shot (as speculated by Bob Gale) by Lorraine in the 90s.
Wow I had no idea! Thank you. It's great stuff !
It's not really possible they couldn't notice change. If they didn't notice the future changed, that means they had knowledge of what happened in the new past too. If the future becomes their reality that means the past of this future also his (in my opinion). If, for exemple, they don't notice in the future that, Biff is all mighty, why would they in the past?
The only thing possible is, as you said, that they didn't see anything different, not that they couldn't. And that's actually a good explanation, since the second they got Jenifer out, Biff came back. They couldn't see if George was dead or something.
And now that you mention it, since Biff was affected by the changes, shouldn't Marty and Doc change too ?
As for Jennifer, I'm not really sure about that but... Letting her in an alternate timeline and going back to the past to change it...
Does that mean there aren't alternate timelines but only ONE timeline and no matter what if something changes it replaces everything ... ? O_o
They can only travel to one timeline but I wouldn't say the others just get erased or whatever ...
Now what's weird, is that if Jennifer is affected by changes in the past, why aren't Marty and Doc when Biff changed it ?
Their past selves had pretty different lives (and probably never time travelled).
We know that a past self affects the future self... So we have to guess that the past Marty and Doc aren't the real Marty and Doc but the ones from another reality, but doesn't that mean Marty also created an alternate timeline in the first movie, and didn't really go back to his ?
back to the future is full of paradoxes, but it works round them. If Marty had been erased from existence in the first movie he would have still been around in the past till he disappeared, the same with biff. He got killed between 1985 and 2015 so he was erased from existence but there was still a version of him in the past who altered things.
The future did change around them in 2015 but they were in an alleyway at the time, even the director said that was intentional. And the past self only accepts the future self if somehow they made it so their not born or their past self dies as a result of the future self. There is another Marty and Doc in 2015 with very different lives but when they went to 2015 it was an alternate version of marty and jennifer anyway, because marty had the accident and so that version of marty and jennifer never went forward in time. They were duplicated tho in 1985, as Marty was in boarding school and Doc was committed, and another Jennifer was off somewhere, no one knows. What should have happened tho was they should have added a scene where after Marty, Doc and Jennifer leave there should have been a gravestone saying when Biff was killed, because now there is no evidence that he was.
That makes sense, I never thought about it that way. Thanks:)
Each time they go to the future, they disappear from the present. Indeed they will come back but they're not supposed to be able to witness that future, since the present (past) is what is changing the future. They're going in a time period where they disappeared in the present, so they should be missing in the future...
Yes, that issue is confusing, but the future mostly acknowledges the fact that they go back to the past in the end and go on with their lifes. Makes total sense since they still have the Delorean.
If going to the future had that kind of a problem, Doc and Marty would never be able to see the "true" future since when they're absent from a big portion of a lifetime, the chain of events would be changed and it would change itself back whenever Doc and Marty go back to the past.
What happened in the end isn't what they saw.
If the future acknowledges they are going back to their time, shouldn't the future also acknowledge what is to come, and what they will do in the past ? Thus showing the exact future that will happen once they're done with time travel.
I understand the problem is that the whole "plot" of the movie would be ruined one way or the other, though ^^'.
It is strange, but the way I see it is the future they saw is the future that would have happened had they not gone to the future, cause doc never went to get them, so they never went to 1880 and marty never got over being called chicken, so he ended up breaking his guitar hand and ruining his career. So if they went back to the future after the events of back to the future 3 the future wouldn't be the same and marty and jennifer would be living a better life.
Of course he never went back to his reality, if he did then doc brown would be dead and his parents would be losers. He created an alternate reality where events were changed. Doc tho should remember a different marty who grew up differently. Jennifer should also know a different Marty, as she is from the same reality marty came back to. So Marty now has the same memories he's always had but they don't match anyone else's, so he can't talk about the past cause its not his past anymore. I wonder if anyone notices he doesn't remember his childhood properly, that he remembers a childhood a lot different from the one he should remember. The ending of back to the future is a good ending but also sad as everyone he knows are different or they knew someone else called marty and he's not the marty they knew.
...yeah let's say it's for the good of movie's plot.
Oh geez - headache time. Because when you view this with Einstein's first experience in BTTF1 - Doc sends him 1 minute into the future. Marty and Doc lived that minute without Einstein's presense. Then they "caught up" to the time machine - a trip which was instantaneous to the traveller inside the car. So the "present" Einstein because the only Einstein in the future. He wasn't there to age in that minute and as far as we know - there is not a "future" Einstein for the dog to meet.
All that being said, it's really fun to discuss. I fully understand that it's just a movie and there must be some suspension of belief for it to work. Does this make us nerds?
According to 2015 Lorraine, much of 1985 Marty's future hinges on that accident happening, which suggests that Marty wouldn't live in a neighborhood that the police think is trashy (among other additional changes) which would then have changed parts of Marty and Doc's efforts to rescue Jennifer (if not the whole trip to 2015 entirely) which would possibly keep Jennifer from meeting herself (which can create a paradox) and if it changed 2015 Biff's location at one point so that he never learned the DeLorean was a time machine, it would never bring Biff to steal the DeLorean and Marty would never get stuck in time and be forced to learn how to properly deflect insults... which brings us back to it affecting whether the car accident itself would have happened or not (which creates another paradox.)
Basically Marty not having that car accident can cause several possible paradoxes, but Doc seems to just say that his future "isn't written yet."
That future existed at the end of BTTF part I and into part II as Marty had yet to learn to deflect the insults, and still would've crashed the car at that point, and as such future still happened for Marty, Doc and Jennifer, just like the past happened for Marty where George was a chicken because they exist 'outside' of the flow. If they change the past so that they no longer exist (i.e. earlier than their departure point), that's when they start to get erased, but they've got free reign to do whatever the hell they like in the future. Even though that future won't happen due to the car crash not happening, Doc, Marty and Jennifer still visited it, and still have memories of it, just like they do of alt 1985.
BTTF is just helping us explaining it.
You are right about Einstein.
That's why people assumed that, when they go to the future, they actually go to an alternate reality.
For instance, in BTTF, the past (and future) isn't written. Which means that when they go to the future, they witness a future where they actually never went into the future to check it out.
It's also why there are their "future selves", it's not their future.
The only thing that is bothering here, is that the "time" is not a "living being" which can just choose what to consider or not. It can't just decide "ok I'm creating a timeline without the time travelling machine at this exact point". It's too arbitrary.
I just believe that Doc is wrong.
I see BTTF more like "silders" actually.
Cauz, we still didn't explain why, while Biff and Jennifer are "changed", Marty and Doc aren't.
Their past selves never time travelled, thus, they should disappear because in no way their past selves (with Doc being convicted and all) could ever time travel and become the guys they are.
That means Marty and Doc are "out of time" and are not affected by the changes, but absolutely nothing explains that.
We could think it's related to the delorean, but it's not possible since Biff used it (which means Marty and Doc were just "random people" , just like Jennifer, with no ability to time travel whatsoever)
All we can guess, besides plot holes, is that those past selves aren't their past selves. Which would contradict Doc.
Marty and Doc as we know them don't exist in this "hell timeline", and yet, they don't disappear.
And there are "doubles". Following that logic, Biff shouldn't disappear.
The exact same problem exist in BTTF 1.
Marty changed his whole life, and yet HE doesn't change. Why that ? Why would his whole existence stop if his parents don't make out ? Since changing his whole life changing doesn't seem to have any effect on him.
Also, we didn't have to see what the "new" Marty actually did in the past. (the one who left when "our" Marty went back)
The alt-85 is a puzzler, for sure. I guess....and this is only a guess, that it took Marty the whole length of BttF1 to fade out of existance, even though the key change took place when he pushed his dad out of the way of his maternal grandfather's motor. So if they'd stayed in '85, both Doc and Marty would've eventually faded out of existance (operating outside of the 'flow' via the DeLorean seems to mean this is a delayed reaction), but they don't because within the space of an evening they've already traveled back to 1955. I can only assume that it does take time for events to catch up to time travellers outside of the flow. The reality shift that Jen would've experienced would have happened instantaneously though, as it's the whole reality changing, and not an individual outside of that flow.
I don't think there's any alternate reality at all, just one that can be changed many times (although with each change, there's more and more risk of meeting a past version of themselves and causing an ACTUAL paradox).
I totally agree, the Marty that went back in time and changed things actually created a different Marty, with new memories and a different life, so why would he disappear if his duplicate was never born or if his younger self died. Time travel created a new reality, a reality marty never came from, so if he was never born it shouldn't affect the Marty who time travelled cause its not the same marty anymore. Its the same for biff, he should never have died cause he created a duplicate, and it was that duplicate who died, so why did that affect the biff from an alternate future where he was alive and well? I read an article about that once and i totally agreed with it. What changes they make in the past should not affect the time travellers themselves as they are not from the new reality being created, another reality is replacing that reality, so no photos should disappear, as they are from the old reality. It makes no sense that the time travellers should disappear if they directly cause there death or cause themselves not to be born, nothing should happen, because they originally came from the reality left behind.
By reading you I just realized that there CAN'T be ONE timeline, as Doc thought.
Since we all agree that original Marty created a new "Marty" (who lived a different life but still time traveled), no one ever wondered WHERE this new "Marty" came back ?
Obviously not in HIS timeline (which is where our Marty comes back). The only explaination for that is that he created yet ANOTHER alternate reality (which is actually normal since he wasn't the exact same Marty, you know what the "butterfly effect" is right ? The slighest change can have dramatic impact) .
That means that no matter what, Marty can never go back to his reality. But this also means, that the timeline just doesn't erase itself, the people in it are still living it.
Cauz it's simple :
- Solution A : New Marty didn't change much things in the past, he created the same timeline. Well it's impossible, or he should have come back to his timeline at the same time as our real Marty (since Marty "never left" since he comes back only 1 second after he left)
So it's unlikely
- Solution B : He did create an alternate timeline, and since he did that AFTER our Marty, we have the proof the timeline didn't erase itself, but new Marty just went into another one.
Therefore, there is a lot of alternate realities.
Well, the simple answer is that it doesn't. Old Biff and '50s Biff were able to interact with one another just fine. Doc's hypothesis was wrong.