^
They never had the chance.
Doc took Marty home and travelled through time. Then the rest of the trilogy happened.
If you meant why didn't they get out of the van and run up to Doc.
The crash probably knocked them out.
Since Marty accelerated up to 88 mph and they were tailing him well enough just before that we can assume they made that crash around....considering they hit the breaks..50 mph per hours? 100 km wow that's serious...
The crash probably knocked them out.Since Marty accelerated up to 88 mph and they were tailing him well enough just before that we can assume they made that crash around....considering they hit the breaks..50 mph per hours? 100 km wow that's serious...
That wasn't the case, if that was, they should have shown it. the most logical way to do it was to make the car explode because there were dozens of explosives in it ... but they didn't do that ...
Yeah, why doesn't Biff jump out of the manure and give Marty a ritual beating?!?
XD good one Vaina! ... Wait, was he talking to me??? You will pay >:-( ... because I'm ... REMINDER OF THE FORGOTTEN! I have the power to ... remind you ... of the ... you know ... forgotten ones ... which is a very useful power ... *begins to cry* Damn you! Damn you ALLLLLL! *gets easy* ... actually, that's a good question, why didn't biff do that?
there was enough time for them to stand up afterwards, while Marty and Doc were talking. Also, they could follow them after they finished talking. What I'm saying is that we didn't see them knock out/Die. Not even in a funny way like Biff running into manure and saying his "catch phrase"
How would he be able to go back to the time shaft to retrieve Delorrean parts? That could only happen if Doc went back in time to before Marty arrived in 1885.
That would still cause a paradox if Doc travelled further into the future than 1955. Marty would need a working time machine, so it doesn;t make any difference if Doc was going to return later. Things would start to erase (similar to when Biff gave the Alimaniac to his younger self).
I do agree that the hoverboard and radio is the only logical explanation. There is no other way that Doc could obtain parts from the future.
Yeah, you're probably right about that. I think I am twisting in some "Bill & Ted" logic in there somewhere.
Actually, I remember why I thought this would ring true in Back to the Future Logic. It's the same logic that when Doc, Marty and Jennifer travel to the future, Marty and Jennifer still exist in an uninterrupted timeline.
Basically, there was no surefire way they would have returned back to 1985 to continue on with their "normal" lives, however... they still existed in the future. In theory, since they departed from 1985 and hadn't returned yet their future selves wouldn't exist because they hadn't yet returned to 1985 to restore the timeline. Basically, the Delorean could have ran out fuel and dropped out of the Sky, causing a paradox, but this didn't happen.
So, in theory, if Doc did borrow the Flux Capacitor and returned it, the Back to the Future Time travel logic would still reign true. The problem is, a lot of the BTTF time travel logic is skewed a bit to fit the story. There isn't any concrete way in which time travel works.
What I'm saying that we didn't see them knock out/Die. Not even in a funny way like Biff running into manure and saying his "catch phrase"
That's movie magic for ya. Since you see them crash and topple over, it's assumed by the audience that the threat is no longer present. But I will say this, the Libyans could still have been a threat, hence why Doc brown leaves and never tried to return to 1985/1986 permanently. Who knows? They may explore that in this game.
Actually, I remember why I thought this would ring true in Back to the Future Logic. It's the same logic that when Doc, Marty and Jennifer travel to the future, Marty and Jennifer still exist in an uninterrupted timeline.
Basically, there was no surefire way they would have returned back to 1985 to continue on with their "normal" lives, however... they still existed in the future. In theory, since they departed from 1985 and hadn't returned yet their future selves wouldn't exist because they hadn't yet returned to 1985 to restore the timeline.
I don't understand what you're saying here.
Also, I know that the BTTF DVD FAQ posits that time traveling into the future takes you to a future based precisely on events only leading up to the point that you left. I really don't like this idea because it suggests that every variable choice made by everything and everyone everywhere in the universe during the intervening years can be easily calculated based on past events without any statistical error. I also don't like for an FAQ on a DVD to be considered as irrefutable fact and the basis for all things explainable in BTTF science. As I recall the FAQ itself even says something to the effect that the answers it gives are only some possible explanations posited and not to be considered as absolute truth.
Anyway, regarding the future-of-the-exact-point-that-you-left idea. I posted my thoughts on this earlier in the thread:
That would mean that the time-continuum makes a lot of assumptions about various future events along the way. Throughout time a lot of seemingly minor events can coalesce together to create a major turn of events. In Jurassic Park, Ian Malcolm says "A butterfly can flap its wings in Peking and in Central Park you get rain instead of sunshine." When you change one thing, it has the capacity to change something else, which can change something else... there are a lot of assumptions to make about "the most likely outcome of events" and as the time-continuum itself is neither sentient nor capable of computing probability algorithms, I don't understand how it could be able to intelligently assume which choices over time would be the more likely to occur.
It sounds like you're saying that the time-continuum is capable of playing a highly elaborate guessing game. If this were true how does it assume that flying cars are practical to research and develop? How does it know which car companies would build which cars? If this were possible, would it then also be that if Doc had successfully finished the time-machine in 1955, if he travelled forward from then that the continuum's assumptions of the future he would see would be more like The Jetsons? What would the continuum assume the future would be like if someone travelled forward to 9999 A.D. using only probabilities known at 1985? How can the continuum possibly assume anything at all with so little information? The only reasonable answer at the very least pushes BTTF's interpretation of the future into the realm of intelligent design theory, which is another way of saying that Doc went forward to 2015 to witness God's Will for the universe before it actually happens. I never thought of the BTTF movies as touching on matters of spirituality, so it doesn't really fit.
Plus, how does the continuum itself decide what the "present" is? When Doc goes to 2015, since he is the first to visit it, his present at that time becomes 2015 and going back to 1985 then changes the past as he then knows it. It would be the same as if Doc had been cryogenically frozen for 30 years, reanimated and then time-travelled back to 1985. Doc travelling forward in time from 1985 to 2015 for the first time forces the continuum to lay out events, such that when Doc reaches 2015 they no longer will happen but already havehappened.
To say that Doc can visit a future that doesn't really exist yet, or merely a "projected destiny" as you put it, is to say that the time-continuum only becomes set as quickly as it takes for the fourth-dimension to march forward in time; that at the time of BTTF, whatever exists before 1985 is set and events that come afterward are only "projected" or "assumed" by the continuum even when someone goes into the future and gains significant amounts of experiences there; and that the continuum itself is capable of making intelligent choices however extraordinarily large or infinitesimally small, and is able to do so many millenia far into the future of what is considered the present, with incredibly little data to base such projections on.
I never said BTTF should follow the mechanics of predestination. What I'm saying is that the future isn't written yet unless someone already knows what it is. When someone time-travels into the future for the first time, they essentially are removed from the fourth dimension until the continuum catches up to where their destination is. When they arrive, that future then can be considered their present. Then, if they return to the previous time they came from, variations in the timeline that occur as a result of their actions overwrite the events that were recorded on the timeline previously.
Einstein at the beginning of BTTF1 skipped forward in time and when he reappeared no second Einstein was there. Also, when Doc went to 2015 at the end of BTTF1, I believe he also appeared in a 2015 where no other Doc was there because the time-continuum recorded events that occurred in his absence. Those recorded events remained until events in that 2015's past were altered. So when Marty, Doc and Jennifer went to 2015, it was the 2015 that had no other Doc. If Marty and Doc had gone together to 2015 first, the future would have been laid out without either of them just as it was laid out for one minute with no Einstein at the beginning of BTTF1.
I understand that the message Doc gives at the end of BTTF3 is "the future is whatever you make it" and "your future hasn't been written yet, no one's has," but just because Doc says these things to Marty to encourage him, it doesn't mean that the time-continuum has to agree.
And I know you really really want the Marty at the end of BTTF3 to be the one original Marty0, but it just doesn't make sense for him to be. By the nature of being able to witness his own future first-hand, it means he can't be the first ever Marty since he never makes that choice. He essentially is learning from a mistake someone else already made... and that someone else is himself, only a previous version that has already made the choice.
So basically, my thoughts are that when Doc goes to the future by himself, he finds a future in which Marty and Jen are there but Doc's other self is not. When he goes back in time, he is altering the past by taking Marty and Jen, so the Marty and Jen seen from the point that Doc shows up at the BTTF1's end/BTTF2's start are not the original versions of themselves.
I really don't think the time continuum makes assumptions. It's more like the time continuum plays out the events that would have happened after the time traveler left, and where the time traveler ends up, that would be their end result.
So when Marty, Doc and Jennifer went to 2015, it was the 2015 that had no other Doc. If Marty and Doc had gone together to 2015 first, the future would have been laid out without either of them just as it was laid out for one minute with no Einstein at the beginning of BTTF1.
While I understand what you're saying, that also is flawed. Think about it like this.
When Marty travels back to 1885 from 1955, he does so because of the Tombstone and seeing as how Doc was murdered. Now, when Marty went back in time, he altered the past and the Tombstone was then Blank, and then the tombstone disappeared. This, in itself, caused a paradox in which Marty should have no longer been in 1885 because the tombstone was no longer present, Doc wasn't murdered, and he had no real reason to return to 1885.
It seems as though, at certain points, BTTF time travelers live outside of the 4th dimension's logic and reasoning. And, if you think of time like a river, then there are some events that won't necessarily alter future events to the point where a paradox would occur.
I think, when Marty and Jennifer went to 2015, the time continuum did change, however with their pre-determined chain of events, the time continuum "knew" (for better lack of a term) that they would eventually return to 1985 and the future timeline wouldn't be interrupted. Hence why they could be in two places at the same time. Now, if 1985 Marty were to die in a horrible accident while visiting the future, a paradox would occur and the future would be erased.
So, it appears that one can travel to the future, a future where they still exist, so long as they do not do anything to endanger themselves to the point where they may alter the future, or risk not returning to the "present" at all.
So basically, my thoughts are that when Doc goes to the future by himself, he finds a future in which Marty and Jen are there but Doc's other self is not.
So, then why are 2015 Marty and Jennifer there when 1985 Marty and Jennifer go to the future? If future selves can exist when past/present selves visit the future, shouldn't a 2015 Doc be around, too (assuming he would still be alive, and even if he isn't, then in a grave somewhere), on his first future visit? Or am I just misunderstanding you? Because if 2015 Doc isn't there, then when 1985 Doc goes back to 2015 with Marty and Jennifer shouldn't there be two 1985 Docs there? And wouldn't Doc essentially be taking Marty and Jennifer into a "recording" of what he saw when he visited the first time?
It seems to me that the only way to account for both past/present selves and future selves to exist in the future simultaneously is the time ripple effect. If 1985 Marty, Doc and Jennifer were to stay in the future for more than the day they were there, their future selves would eventually disappear, but not immediately disappear.
I lean more towards the 2015 visited by 1985 M/D/J being the actual future, rather than some projection, which I think is what you're saying, right? But that doesn't mean it still can't be changed, just as 1985 is changed by visiting 1955 (since 1985 is 1955's future).
I'm sure I have something wrong in here. You seem to have a much better grasp on the logic of all this than I do, so please correct me. 2015 is by far the most confounding part of the trilogy, mainly because Gale and Zemeckis seem to have thrown several different theories about future time travel together which don't exactly jibe with each other. Figuring it all out is challenging, but fun.
So, it appears that one can travel to the future, a future where they still exist, so long as they do not do anything to endanger themselves to the point where they may alter the future, or risk not returning to the "present" at all.
Exactly. Which is why Old Biff disappears immediately upon returning to the future, but 2015 Marty and Jennifer don't disappear immediately just because 1985 Marty and Jennifer are there.
@Mark
I wasn't saying that the 2015 future is a projection, I was saying that certain other people, including the BTTF DVD FAQ, seem to say that it is and I disagree (which is why I would rather BTTF science stood on it's own feet rather than being answered by an FAQ that itself says not to be considered as fact.)
@FaM
Now that you say so, it would perhaps make sense to say that the future Marty/Jennifer are there because the ripple effect of them leaving hasn't caught up yet.
Also, I always thought the tombstone disappearing was a major paradox. The only way around it would have been if Marty and 1955 Doc had gone to the library without having seem the tombstone, and Marty had seen himself in the clock photo which would tell him he's supposed to go to 1885 anyway... but then he would have gone back without the tombstone photo and caused other paradoxes since their primary motivation to leave 1885 as quickly as they did was because of it.
@Mark
I wasn't saying that the 2015 future is a projection, I was saying that certain other people, including the BTTF DVD FAQ, seem to say that it is and I disagree (which is why I would rather BTTF science stood on it's own feet rather than being answered by an FAQ that itself says not to be considered as fact.)
I didn't say I thought you said 2015 was a projection. I agree with you that the 2015 visited is the "actual" 2015. I got confused because you said there would be no 2015 Doc in 2015 when 1985 Doc visits for the first time. But when Marty and Jennifer visit, 2015 Marty and Jennifer are there. Those two statements are mutually exclusive. Either 2015 Doc has to be there when 1985 Doc visits the first time, or 2015 M & J shouldn't be there when 1985 M & J visit. Otherwise, the 2015 that Doc takes M & J to is essentially a "projection".
Well, I hadn't previously considered (nor was it previously discussed) prior to you saying so, that if 1985 Marty had been in 2015 for too long that the ripple effect would catch up and remove his future self. It does make a certain amount of sense.
Previous discussion on the thread had us talking about the mechanics of how the BTTF time-continuum works (eg. a 5th dimension of time in which alternate timelines can be shown, which sometimes intersects with itself so different versions of a person exist at the same time) and someone was saying that 2015 was only a projection of future events based on events leading up to 1985. I disagreed with that, figuring they were only saying that to ensure that the Marty at the end of BTTF3 was always the original version of Marty. I said that it made more sense to say that 1985 Doc created a new 5th dimensional timeline by travelling back in time and bringing 1985 Marty to 2015, and that the original version of Marty was the older 2015 one, while the 1985 Marty seen in BTTF2+3 is another version of himself.
I think some people take Doc saying "the future hasn't been written yet, noone's has" to a point of saying that 1985 Marty could affect his own destiny by going to the future and learning from mistakes made by a version of himself that doesn't really exist, just so they can say that Marty could change his own destiny without creating another version of himself (in the 5th time dimension) even after seeing first-hand the effects of what it would have been.
...Which is to say it sounds like some people try to combine the science of BTTF with the philosophy of BTTF to a point that makes no sense to me.
@FaM
Now that you say so, it would perhaps make sense to say that the future Marty/Jennifer are there because the ripple effect of them leaving hasn't caught up yet.
Also, I always thought the tombstone disappearing was a major paradox. The only way around it would have been if Marty and 1955 Doc had gone to the library without having seem the tombstone, and Marty had seen himself in the clock photo which would tell him he's supposed to go to 1885 anyway... but then he would have gone back without the tombstone photo and caused other paradoxes since their primary motivation to leave 1885 as quickly as they did was because of it.
Yeah, I tend to think that sometimes Marty and Doc exist "outside of time" during certain instances, sort of like how you said the ripple hasn't caught up yet. It seems as though if they do something that directly places their existence in jeopardy, such as Marty interrupting his parents meeting, or Biff drastically altering past events, then they aren't affected by the Space-time continuum.
I think of it like the Buttefly Effect. Back to the future doesn't have the "Buttefly Effect" logic, whereas when the future changes you get flooded with the memories that you didn't directly experience. In the morning of October 26th, 1985, Marty walks from his bedroom and is in shock at how much things have changed. He'll probably have to adjust to a brand new History that he never personally experienced before. But if he were to travel back in time and shoot George, then he would create a paradox and cease to exist.
Well, I hadn't previously considered (nor was it previously discussed) prior to you saying so, that if 1985 Marty had been in 2015 for too long that the ripple effect would catch up and remove his future self. It does make a certain amount of sense.
Previous discussion on the thread had us talking about the mechanics of how the BTTF time-continuum works (eg. a 5th dimension of time in which alternate timelines can be shown, which sometimes intersects with itself so different versions of a person exist at the same time) and someone was saying that 2015 was only a projection of future events based on events leading up to 1985. I disagreed with that, figuring they were only saying that to ensure that the Marty at the end of BTTF3 was always the original version of Marty. I said that it made more sense to say that 1985 Doc changed the future by bringing 1985 Marty to 2015, and that the original version of Marty was the 2015 one, while the 1985 Marty seen in BTTF2+3 is another version of himself, created from a 5th dimensional branch that started when Doc went to pick him up at the start of BTTF2.
I think some people take Doc saying "the future hasn't been written yet, noone's has" to a point of saying that 1985 Marty could affect his own destiny by going to the future and learning from mistakes made by a version of himself that doesn't really exist, just so they can say that Marty could change his own destiny without creating another version of himself (in the 5th time dimension) even after seeing first-hand the effects of what it would have been.
...Which is to say it sounds like some people try to combine the science of BTTF with the philosophy of BTTF to a point that makes no sense to me.
If you'll allow that 2015 Doc exists in the future during 1985 Doc's first visit there (because of the ripple effect) then I think we're in complete agreement.
It seems to me in BttF the only fatal paradox is existential one, like changing your destiny or preventing yourself to be born. Uh... Well... Time travelers in BttF don't seem to be affected very much by the Ripple effect in many terms: for example, Marty doesn't remember his new family, in BttF1, because he's still another Marty (and he never DOES learn anything about his new family through the whole trilogy). Doc in 1885 doesn't remember sending Marty back to 1885, because he's not THAT Doc, and you could think that with Doc Brown from 1955 who sent Marty back in 1855 living for so long would make the ripple effect catch up with things.
On the other hand, Marty gets erased when he prevented himself from being born, Biff gets erased when he changed his destiny, and I guess that if Marty would've got rid of his 'chicken' berserk button in 2015, the future Marty would collapse right in place and some stuff around could change.
It seems to me there doesn't exist 'no reason to go somewhere' paradox in BttF, because time travellers are not affected by that.
Doc in 1885 doesn't remember sending Marty back to 1885, because he's not THAT Doc, and you could think that with Doc Brown from 1955 who sent Marty back in 1855 living for so long would make the ripple effect catch up with things.
It's funny you mention this, as the BTTF III novelisation (from memory) has Doc apologising for dressing Marty in his cartoony cowboy outfit, but only after Marty helps him 'remember'.
I just went searching Google for this line, and discovered that I was having a very similar discussion about this topic on the BTTF forum... seven years ago. Heavy.
It's funny you mention this, as the BTTF III novelisation (from memory) has Doc apologising for dressing Marty in his cartoony cowboy outfit, but only after Marty helps him 'remember'.
I always chalked this up to Doc being eccentric and his mind being jumbled from all of his time travel adventures, not to mention he is significantly older so he might have had a slight memory loss. Doc is quite absent minded in the movies.
It's funny you mention this, as the BTTF III novelisation (from memory) has Doc apologising for dressing Marty in his cartoony cowboy outfit, but only after Marty helps him 'remember'.
Well, the interesting thing, in my opinion is, is that Doc REALLY not remembering ironically brings up less paradoxes than with Doc really remembering that. Because if Marty meets with Doc from 1955 (i.e. who sent him in 1885 from 1955), then it means that Doc had to wait all his life to make the moment of him going to 1885 happen (and try to NOT change anything anymore), and then he would have to write Marty a letter so he could get back to 1885 - you know, to follow the loop. BUT. That variant makes the 'tombstone' paradox possible - because it breaks the loop, giving NO reason for Marty to go to 1885. But if the Doc whom Marty meets in 1885 is NOT the Doc who sends Marty back from 1955, but the one who got accidentally struck by a lightning (and therefore did never have an intention of sending Marty to 1885), then there is no paradox with the tombstone since there doesn't have to be a stable loop for Marty to go back in time.
Well, the interesting thing, in my opinion is, is that Doc REALLY not remembering ironically brings up less paradoxes than with Doc really remembering that. Because if Marty meets with Doc from 1955 (i.e. who sent him in 1885 from 1955), then it means that Doc had to wait all his life to make the moment of him going to 1885 happen (and try to NOT change anything anymore), and then he would have to write Marty a letter so he could get back to 1885 - you know, to follow the loop. BUT. That variant makes the 'tombstone' paradox possible - because it breaks the loop, giving NO reason for Marty to go to 1885. But if the Doc whom Marty meets in 1885 is NOT the Doc who sends Marty back from 1955, but the one who got accidentally struck by a lightning (and therefore did never have an intention of sending Marty to 1885), then there is no paradox with the tombstone since there doesn't have to be a stable loop for Marty to go back in time.
This also raises the question: With Marty interacting with 1931 Doc in the game, will 1955 Doc remember Marty from his teenage years? And if so, what potential ramifications will that have on the interactions they had in BTTF? When Doc opens the door, he doesn't think Marty's collecting donations for the coast guard, he just yells "You again!"?
This also raises the question: With Marty interacting with 1931 Doc in the game, will 1955 Doc remember Marty from his teenage years? And if so, what potential ramifications will that have on the interactions they had in BTTF? When Doc opens the door, he doesn't think Marty's from the coast guard, he just yells "You again!"?
Well. First it depends on the question: does the ending of BttF3 fully erases ALL what happened in the two movies - BttFII and III? I think it most likely does. With...
Oh my.
Does it mean that there's two Docs roaming around the timeline? With one Doc - the one who we see in the Time Train, and the other Doc - the one who leaves Marty the day before at his home with a DeLorean? (the one who would never have to come back for Marty to help his children since his future will be different? O_o )
Well. First it depends on the question: does the ending of BttF3 fully erases ALL what happened in the two movies - BttFII and III? I think it most likely does.
Well. In the end, Marty doesn't crash into the car, and the 'You're fired' disappeared, right? That means the future has changed, right? So if Marty will travel into 2015 from the ending of BttF3, at the exact same point where he travelled in BttF2, he will NOT find himself trying to help his children because there will be no children for Marty to help to - the future has changed (and most likely his education of his children).
That means Marty will never get the almanach, the 1955 timeline from the first movie will never be changed (Biff won't return, so will not Marty), and no one will get sent to 1885. (BTW, what day does Marty get home to? I remember Biff waxing Marty's car, that means that's the same night/morning when he got back from 1955 in the first movie, right?)
Yet all this doesn't really affect the Time Travellers themselves (i.e. Doc and Marty), allowing Marty to go back normally to 1985 and Doc to stay alive and unparadoxed and marry Clara.
(BTW, what day does Marty get home to? I remember Biff waxing Marty's car, that means that's the same night/morning when he got back from 1955 in the first movie, right?)
Marty arrives home the morning of October 27, the day after he returned from 1955. Biff just happens to be waxing the 4x4 again, but in a different outfit.
Yet all this doesn't really affect the Time Travellers themselves (i.e. Doc and Marty), allowing Marty to go back normally to 1985 and Doc to stay alive and unparadoxed and marry Clara.
Well, how does that work? If Doc doesn't get sent to 1885 because the events in 2015 didn't happen, he never meets Clara, but yet, there she is on the train at the end. Actually, the whole scene of the train arriving only exists if the events of II & III don't get erased.
Well, how does that work? If Doc doesn't get sent to 1885 because the events in 2015 didn't happen, he never meets Clara, but yet, there she is on the train at the end. Actually, the whole scene of the train arriving only exists if the events of II & III don't get erased.
Yeah, that makes sense. It's just that with time travellers being out of the loop (I still think they are out of the loop, so that's why there's no paradox with the tombstone) and my confusion with October 26th and 27th got me to this line of thinking.
Personally, I think the events of 1955 will remain completely untouched, but 2015 doesn't exist. While this does create a paradox, I think the only negative effect it would have would be that the 2015 that we saw no longer exists. The Doc and Marty alternates in 1955 are from an alternate timeline.
Think of it like this. Stuff happened in the 1985A timeline, but that got changed back, right? Yes. But it still happened, Marty still got trapped back in 1955 due to the events in 1985A. He didn't forget 1985A happened, nor did he forget that 1985A Biff told him when he received the almanac. So those events take place in an alternate timeline/universe.
What Farlander is saying is that at the end of BTTF1, Doc goes by himself to the future, and at some point learns of Marty's childrens' fate. Since Marty's destiny seems to have hinged on the car accident, which no longer happens, Farlander is saying that this could affect Marty's kids and never prompt Doc to have taken Marty to save them, thereby having a 1985 DeLorean Doc in the future and an 1885 Time Train Doc in the future together at the same time.
That's what he's saying. However I have to somewhat disagree with the logic of this a bit. When Biff alters his own destiny, the ripple effect removes old Biff from the then-current 2015 timeline but doesn't (appear to) cause a paradox (yet). This suggests that, if Marty avoiding the accident changed his kids' destinies as well, the effect would have removed time-travelling Doc and Marty from 2015 at some point, but still not create a paradox (somehow.)
On the other hand, BTTF movie logic suggests that altering the destiny of one person doesn't have to change their descendants' destinies. For example, Marty changing Beauford's destiny by getting him arrested for robbery of a stage coach (and murder of the Marshall) doesn't change Biff's destiny or personality at all.
TBH, I always wondered why Jennifer and Einstein could stay in 1985A while it shifts back to the normal timeline, yet remember everything that happened to them.
If I could inject some Star Trek time-continuum logic into this, it is possible that persons from each dimension of the time continuum have their own temporal signature, and given that Jen and Einey are from a different dimension, they are then not affected by the changes.
...However, this doesn't hold up with 2015 Biff, who vanished just because the other version of himself was shot. Maybe time travellers are only affected by paradoxes, and Biff vanishing was the result of an impending paradox that just hadn't taken effect by the time Marty and Doc left 2015?
That's what he's saying. However I have to somewhat disagree with the logic of this a bit. When Biff alters his own destiny, the ripple effect removes old Biff from the then-current 2015 timeline but doesn't (appear to) cause a paradox (yet). This suggests that, if Marty avoiding the accident changed his kids' destinies as well, the effect would have removed time-travelling Doc and Marty from 2015 at some point, but still not create a paradox (somehow.)
What happens is there is now an alternate 2015 timeline, call it 2015B. Since the past was changed, this timeline changed, but it technically still exists in an alternate reality. Many time travel theories suggest that when time travel occurs, universe hopping occurs as well. So, 2015B still exists somewhere. If the future would be changed somehow, such as Marty traveling back in time and getting into the car accident, 2015B could be set back into the main time continuum.
It's just as Marty and Doc's conversation states:
Marty: Right, so we go back to the future, and we stop Biff from stealing the almanac.
Doc: We can't! Because, if we travel into the future from this point in time, it will be the future of this reality! In which Biff is corrupt, and powerful, and married to your mother; and in which this has happened to me!
No, our only chance to repair the present is in the past, at the point where the timeline skewed into this tangent. In order to put the universe back as we remember it, and get back to our reality, we have to find out the exact date, and the specific circumstances of how, where and when, young Biff got his hands on that sports almanac.
So there are different timelines floating around where alternate events can take place.
Which ventures into the Star Trek time theory that "anything that can happen does happen in alternate realities," though in this case the number of dimensions may only be limited to instances of change due to time-travel.
Which ventures into the Star Trek time theory that "anything that can happen does happen in alternate realities," though in this case the number of dimensions may only be limited to instances of change due to time-travel.
I'd agree. Bob Gail and Robert Zemeckis admitted that the BTTF Universe can use alternate realities in the Blu-Ray FAQ section.
Such a theory then suggests that, since parallel time-dimensions do exist simultaneously, it begs the question whether paradoxes really can occur.
Also, though it might be a stretch, this makes me wonder if, when a time-traveller disappears as a result of an apparent paradox, whether they really are being erased from existence or rather their existence is being pushed out of the current held timeline and forced back into the one from whence they came? (which still could be very painful and/or deadly to the subject)
This would mean that the continuum wasn't obliterating Marty's molecules in 1955 but rather forcing his body out of that timeline (since it made no sense to him to exist there without parents) and back into the one where his grandpa hit his dad with the car.
....I know it's really a stretch, but it's possible.
I actually don't like that theory, especially for Back to the Future, even though that theory is quite possibly very true in popular science and I am completely behind it.
For Back to the Future it's great that there's only one real timeline and whatever you do can directly affect it and change things in the same timeline. To me, it makes the story better and the consequences that much greater. So, I think the producers try to use a hybrid of the Alternate Universe's theory, and the "Time is like a river" theory.
Here's a question. In 1985A, Doc is in an asylum and Marty is apparently in a boarding school. When Marty and Doc arrive in 1985A, what happened to the Doc and Marty that were there?
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Yeah, you're probably right about that. I think I am twisting in some "Bill & Ted" logic in there somewhere.
They never had the chance.
Doc took Marty home and travelled through time. Then the rest of the trilogy happened.
If you meant why didn't they get out of the van and run up to Doc.
The crash probably knocked them out.
Since Marty accelerated up to 88 mph and they were tailing him well enough just before that we can assume they made that crash around....considering they hit the breaks..50 mph per hours? 100 km wow that's serious...
What? They showed them crashing into the stall right, van tumbling and everything.
Highly unlikely that someone would just stand up from that 1,2,3
Actually, I remember why I thought this would ring true in Back to the Future Logic. It's the same logic that when Doc, Marty and Jennifer travel to the future, Marty and Jennifer still exist in an uninterrupted timeline.
Basically, there was no surefire way they would have returned back to 1985 to continue on with their "normal" lives, however... they still existed in the future. In theory, since they departed from 1985 and hadn't returned yet their future selves wouldn't exist because they hadn't yet returned to 1985 to restore the timeline. Basically, the Delorean could have ran out fuel and dropped out of the Sky, causing a paradox, but this didn't happen.
So, in theory, if Doc did borrow the Flux Capacitor and returned it, the Back to the Future Time travel logic would still reign true. The problem is, a lot of the BTTF time travel logic is skewed a bit to fit the story. There isn't any concrete way in which time travel works.
That's movie magic for ya. Since you see them crash and topple over, it's assumed by the audience that the threat is no longer present. But I will say this, the Libyans could still have been a threat, hence why Doc brown leaves and never tried to return to 1985/1986 permanently. Who knows? They may explore that in this game.
I don't know if it will be on that faithfull day though
I don't understand what you're saying here.
Also, I know that the BTTF DVD FAQ posits that time traveling into the future takes you to a future based precisely on events only leading up to the point that you left. I really don't like this idea because it suggests that every variable choice made by everything and everyone everywhere in the universe during the intervening years can be easily calculated based on past events without any statistical error. I also don't like for an FAQ on a DVD to be considered as irrefutable fact and the basis for all things explainable in BTTF science. As I recall the FAQ itself even says something to the effect that the answers it gives are only some possible explanations posited and not to be considered as absolute truth.
Anyway, regarding the future-of-the-exact-point-that-you-left idea. I posted my thoughts on this earlier in the thread:
So basically, my thoughts are that when Doc goes to the future by himself, he finds a future in which Marty and Jen are there but Doc's other self is not. When he goes back in time, he is altering the past by taking Marty and Jen, so the Marty and Jen seen from the point that Doc shows up at the BTTF1's end/BTTF2's start are not the original versions of themselves.
While I understand what you're saying, that also is flawed. Think about it like this.
When Marty travels back to 1885 from 1955, he does so because of the Tombstone and seeing as how Doc was murdered. Now, when Marty went back in time, he altered the past and the Tombstone was then Blank, and then the tombstone disappeared. This, in itself, caused a paradox in which Marty should have no longer been in 1885 because the tombstone was no longer present, Doc wasn't murdered, and he had no real reason to return to 1885.
It seems as though, at certain points, BTTF time travelers live outside of the 4th dimension's logic and reasoning. And, if you think of time like a river, then there are some events that won't necessarily alter future events to the point where a paradox would occur.
I think, when Marty and Jennifer went to 2015, the time continuum did change, however with their pre-determined chain of events, the time continuum "knew" (for better lack of a term) that they would eventually return to 1985 and the future timeline wouldn't be interrupted. Hence why they could be in two places at the same time. Now, if 1985 Marty were to die in a horrible accident while visiting the future, a paradox would occur and the future would be erased.
So, it appears that one can travel to the future, a future where they still exist, so long as they do not do anything to endanger themselves to the point where they may alter the future, or risk not returning to the "present" at all.
It seems to me that the only way to account for both past/present selves and future selves to exist in the future simultaneously is the time ripple effect. If 1985 Marty, Doc and Jennifer were to stay in the future for more than the day they were there, their future selves would eventually disappear, but not immediately disappear.
I lean more towards the 2015 visited by 1985 M/D/J being the actual future, rather than some projection, which I think is what you're saying, right? But that doesn't mean it still can't be changed, just as 1985 is changed by visiting 1955 (since 1985 is 1955's future).
I'm sure I have something wrong in here. You seem to have a much better grasp on the logic of all this than I do, so please correct me. 2015 is by far the most confounding part of the trilogy, mainly because Gale and Zemeckis seem to have thrown several different theories about future time travel together which don't exactly jibe with each other. Figuring it all out is challenging, but fun.
Exactly. Which is why Old Biff disappears immediately upon returning to the future, but 2015 Marty and Jennifer don't disappear immediately just because 1985 Marty and Jennifer are there.
I wasn't saying that the 2015 future is a projection, I was saying that certain other people, including the BTTF DVD FAQ, seem to say that it is and I disagree (which is why I would rather BTTF science stood on it's own feet rather than being answered by an FAQ that itself says not to be considered as fact.)
@FaM
Now that you say so, it would perhaps make sense to say that the future Marty/Jennifer are there because the ripple effect of them leaving hasn't caught up yet.
Also, I always thought the tombstone disappearing was a major paradox. The only way around it would have been if Marty and 1955 Doc had gone to the library without having seem the tombstone, and Marty had seen himself in the clock photo which would tell him he's supposed to go to 1885 anyway... but then he would have gone back without the tombstone photo and caused other paradoxes since their primary motivation to leave 1885 as quickly as they did was because of it.
Previous discussion on the thread had us talking about the mechanics of how the BTTF time-continuum works (eg. a 5th dimension of time in which alternate timelines can be shown, which sometimes intersects with itself so different versions of a person exist at the same time) and someone was saying that 2015 was only a projection of future events based on events leading up to 1985. I disagreed with that, figuring they were only saying that to ensure that the Marty at the end of BTTF3 was always the original version of Marty. I said that it made more sense to say that 1985 Doc created a new 5th dimensional timeline by travelling back in time and bringing 1985 Marty to 2015, and that the original version of Marty was the older 2015 one, while the 1985 Marty seen in BTTF2+3 is another version of himself.
I think some people take Doc saying "the future hasn't been written yet, noone's has" to a point of saying that 1985 Marty could affect his own destiny by going to the future and learning from mistakes made by a version of himself that doesn't really exist, just so they can say that Marty could change his own destiny without creating another version of himself (in the 5th time dimension) even after seeing first-hand the effects of what it would have been.
...Which is to say it sounds like some people try to combine the science of BTTF with the philosophy of BTTF to a point that makes no sense to me.
Yeah, I tend to think that sometimes Marty and Doc exist "outside of time" during certain instances, sort of like how you said the ripple hasn't caught up yet. It seems as though if they do something that directly places their existence in jeopardy, such as Marty interrupting his parents meeting, or Biff drastically altering past events, then they aren't affected by the Space-time continuum.
I think of it like the Buttefly Effect. Back to the future doesn't have the "Buttefly Effect" logic, whereas when the future changes you get flooded with the memories that you didn't directly experience. In the morning of October 26th, 1985, Marty walks from his bedroom and is in shock at how much things have changed. He'll probably have to adjust to a brand new History that he never personally experienced before. But if he were to travel back in time and shoot George, then he would create a paradox and cease to exist.
On the other hand, Marty gets erased when he prevented himself from being born, Biff gets erased when he changed his destiny, and I guess that if Marty would've got rid of his 'chicken' berserk button in 2015, the future Marty would collapse right in place and some stuff around could change.
It seems to me there doesn't exist 'no reason to go somewhere' paradox in BttF, because time travellers are not affected by that.
It's funny you mention this, as the BTTF III novelisation (from memory) has Doc apologising for dressing Marty in his cartoony cowboy outfit, but only after Marty helps him 'remember'.
I just went searching Google for this line, and discovered that I was having a very similar discussion about this topic on the BTTF forum... seven years ago. Heavy.
http://www.bttf.com/forums/topic.php?tp=18283-what+idiot+dressed+you+like+that
I always chalked this up to Doc being eccentric and his mind being jumbled from all of his time travel adventures, not to mention he is significantly older so he might have had a slight memory loss. Doc is quite absent minded in the movies.
Well, the interesting thing, in my opinion is, is that Doc REALLY not remembering ironically brings up less paradoxes than with Doc really remembering that. Because if Marty meets with Doc from 1955 (i.e. who sent him in 1885 from 1955), then it means that Doc had to wait all his life to make the moment of him going to 1885 happen (and try to NOT change anything anymore), and then he would have to write Marty a letter so he could get back to 1885 - you know, to follow the loop. BUT. That variant makes the 'tombstone' paradox possible - because it breaks the loop, giving NO reason for Marty to go to 1885. But if the Doc whom Marty meets in 1885 is NOT the Doc who sends Marty back from 1955, but the one who got accidentally struck by a lightning (and therefore did never have an intention of sending Marty to 1885), then there is no paradox with the tombstone since there doesn't have to be a stable loop for Marty to go back in time.
Well. First it depends on the question: does the ending of BttF3 fully erases ALL what happened in the two movies - BttFII and III? I think it most likely does. With...
Oh my.
Does it mean that there's two Docs roaming around the timeline? With one Doc - the one who we see in the Time Train, and the other Doc - the one who leaves Marty the day before at his home with a DeLorean? (the one who would never have to come back for Marty to help his children since his future will be different? O_o )
Well. In the end, Marty doesn't crash into the car, and the 'You're fired' disappeared, right? That means the future has changed, right? So if Marty will travel into 2015 from the ending of BttF3, at the exact same point where he travelled in BttF2, he will NOT find himself trying to help his children because there will be no children for Marty to help to - the future has changed (and most likely his education of his children).
That means Marty will never get the almanach, the 1955 timeline from the first movie will never be changed (Biff won't return, so will not Marty), and no one will get sent to 1885. (BTW, what day does Marty get home to? I remember Biff waxing Marty's car, that means that's the same night/morning when he got back from 1955 in the first movie, right?)
Yet all this doesn't really affect the Time Travellers themselves (i.e. Doc and Marty), allowing Marty to go back normally to 1985 and Doc to stay alive and unparadoxed and marry Clara.
Well, how does that work? If Doc doesn't get sent to 1885 because the events in 2015 didn't happen, he never meets Clara, but yet, there she is on the train at the end. Actually, the whole scene of the train arriving only exists if the events of II & III don't get erased.
Yeah, that makes sense. It's just that with time travellers being out of the loop (I still think they are out of the loop, so that's why there's no paradox with the tombstone) and my confusion with October 26th and 27th got me to this line of thinking.
Think of it like this. Stuff happened in the 1985A timeline, but that got changed back, right? Yes. But it still happened, Marty still got trapped back in 1955 due to the events in 1985A. He didn't forget 1985A happened, nor did he forget that 1985A Biff told him when he received the almanac. So those events take place in an alternate timeline/universe.
That's what he's saying. However I have to somewhat disagree with the logic of this a bit. When Biff alters his own destiny, the ripple effect removes old Biff from the then-current 2015 timeline but doesn't (appear to) cause a paradox (yet). This suggests that, if Marty avoiding the accident changed his kids' destinies as well, the effect would have removed time-travelling Doc and Marty from 2015 at some point, but still not create a paradox (somehow.)
On the other hand, BTTF movie logic suggests that altering the destiny of one person doesn't have to change their descendants' destinies. For example, Marty changing Beauford's destiny by getting him arrested for robbery of a stage coach (and murder of the Marshall) doesn't change Biff's destiny or personality at all.
ONE of the things I was saying, and that wasn't the most important thought.
But, your post leads me to a thought. Doc is afraid of paradoxes. But. Are paradoxes even possible in BttF-version of Time Travel? O_o
If I could inject some Star Trek time-continuum logic into this, it is possible that persons from each dimension of the time continuum have their own temporal signature, and given that Jen and Einey are from a different dimension, they are then not affected by the changes.
...However, this doesn't hold up with 2015 Biff, who vanished just because the other version of himself was shot. Maybe time travellers are only affected by paradoxes, and Biff vanishing was the result of an impending paradox that just hadn't taken effect by the time Marty and Doc left 2015?
What happens is there is now an alternate 2015 timeline, call it 2015B. Since the past was changed, this timeline changed, but it technically still exists in an alternate reality. Many time travel theories suggest that when time travel occurs, universe hopping occurs as well. So, 2015B still exists somewhere. If the future would be changed somehow, such as Marty traveling back in time and getting into the car accident, 2015B could be set back into the main time continuum.
It's just as Marty and Doc's conversation states:
So there are different timelines floating around where alternate events can take place.
I'd agree. Bob Gail and Robert Zemeckis admitted that the BTTF Universe can use alternate realities in the Blu-Ray FAQ section.
Also, though it might be a stretch, this makes me wonder if, when a time-traveller disappears as a result of an apparent paradox, whether they really are being erased from existence or rather their existence is being pushed out of the current held timeline and forced back into the one from whence they came? (which still could be very painful and/or deadly to the subject)
This would mean that the continuum wasn't obliterating Marty's molecules in 1955 but rather forcing his body out of that timeline (since it made no sense to him to exist there without parents) and back into the one where his grandpa hit his dad with the car.
....I know it's really a stretch, but it's possible.
For Back to the Future it's great that there's only one real timeline and whatever you do can directly affect it and change things in the same timeline. To me, it makes the story better and the consequences that much greater. So, I think the producers try to use a hybrid of the Alternate Universe's theory, and the "Time is like a river" theory.