so technically it never happened but its in Marty's memory?
Sort of. Just like how Marty was technically never born when he first prevents his parents' meeting. Except that he was, on the original time line. Which is why he can exist, for a short time anyway, in 1955 after he pushes George out of the way of the car.
As you can see, I am a proponent of the "multiverse" theory of how the BTTF universe works, though I hate that term. I'd rather call it "multiple time lines", with the "original" time line being the one without any time travel interventions, and a new time line splitting off (as Doc shows on the chalkboard in BTTFII) when a traveler goes back to the past and makes changes. Having everything take place on the one original time line would just create too many headaches (and paradoxes) and would involve time loops, as far as I can tell.
One thing about this movie that strikes me as odd is Doc's weird time-logic.
I mean, why travel to the future to correct wrongs that haven't yet occured? It's like he's saying, "You're son, whom you haven't had yet, is going to get arrested in 30 years! There's no time to take the truck for a spin! We're late! Hurry! We've only got 30 years!". It's ridiculuous. I mean he's got all the time he wants; he's got a time machine!
Why not take Clara with them in Part III? It's not like taking her with them would screw things up more than saving her from her fated death, right? In fact, wouldn't it kinda undo any potential damage by making her disappear from the past in around the same year she was supposed to?
The nice thing was: that oversight, also saved them from being ran over by the locomotive, which Doc failed to think might be cruising down a track that was "safe an still in use" in 1985. It's just great how things come together.
Doc won't let Marty keep the Sports Almanac, even though he said he wanted to know who won the next world series. Doc even Patronizes him, like he never thought such thoughts himself.
And then there's the whole, if you see your other self you could create a time pardox that could destroy the universe thing. That didn't ever happen...
Point is: Doc can be pretty crazy. I tend to chalk it up to his being an "absent-minded professor" or a "mad scientist". He's invented the time machine, but I'm convinced that even he's not entirely sure of exactly how time travel works. Understandable, since I imagine it would get very confusing.
Blow me down... is that Doc hanging from the clock on her badge?
Great Scott! I never noticed that before, and I've seen these movies dozens of times. BTTF truly is the series that keeps on giving. I notice something new every single time I watch.
Hm... Are you sure that's... SomeONE hanging? Looks like a blub to me. Some kind of shadowy blub, probably cause of the old photo, I don't know. It's just that, a) I don't see a generally human resemblance, b) Doc is a normal-sized humans and he's taller (or at least as tall) than the size of the clock, while that blub is barely half of it.
It was pretty clear that Lauraine thought kissing Marty tasted like her broke, and when she found out Calvin Klein was her son she started an incesteous relationship with Marty and eventually became an alcholic. In the original time line (unaltered) Biff probably beat up George at the dance before they fell in love, after BIff takes advantage of her.
The shadow in front of the clock on the flyer and on the button the lady is wearing is not Doc, its one of the gargoyles, the picture is taken from an angle so it looks like it is on the clock but its to the side of the clock.
Bob Gale and associates explain this in BTTF bluray set. The idea is they knew that because of the way a paradox would work it would be all but impossible to actually travel through time, so it was impossible to make the movies without POSSIBLE paradoxical inconsistencies. So if you think about it too much you are just being silly.
Bob Gale and associates explain this in BTTF bluray set. The idea is they knew that because of the way a paradox would work it would be all but impossible to actually travel through time, so it was impossible to make the movies without POSSIBLE paradoxical inconsistencies. So if you think about it too much you are just being silly.
"It's just a show, I should really just relax."
But, untangling the potential paradoxes is half the fun of being a BTTF fan.
When I was a child, first viewing BTTF, something troubled me: the rule in BTTF that one character can't meet his oneself. This rule has no logic, how Doc could have stated it? Actually, Doc meets himself in BTTF2 and everything is fine because his younger self doesn't realize it. Rule = two possible reactions: either both of the character versions faint, either the universe blows up . This is typically one rule (I know it's unproven, just enunciated by Doc) in BTTF that makes no sense but summarize the whole physics of BTTF: the scenarists make the rules for fun and without consistency.
The idea is they knew that because of the way a paradox would work it would be all but impossible to actually travel through time, so it was impossible to make the movies without POSSIBLE paradoxical inconsistencies.
I think this is wrong. You can make it consistent by choosing either of the deterministic approach, or the one with different time lines, but it will be more scientific and less entertaining for the public.
Deterministic: Only one time line, you can't change the future nor the past, all is already written. The Greek was great with this. Gods had no notion of time, they saw the future and the past as a whole. The Sphinx told Oedipus that he was going to murder his father and marry his mother. And that's by trying to avoid his fate that Oedipus actually did.
How to introduce a time machine with deterministic rules? Not easy. You can't make any character control it, because he, human being, wouldn't resist to try to change the past. So you have to make the time machine uncontrollable (inaccuracy or mystical will). The time machine (or plot maker) choose where to send the character. The character can't interact directly with himself. I love Twelve Monkeys, hard to find plot holes due to time travelling... The problem with deterministic approach is that there is no alternative time line, which is such a restriction for the plot.
Now the approach with time lines: When you travel back in time, you appear in a new time line. You can kill your father or even your alternative yourself without any consequences on the actual yourself. You can also clone yourself endlessly by going back 1 minute in the past and avoiding the alternate you to do it himself. You can prevent the time machine of being built. However, if someone else takes the time machine (like old Biff in BTTF2), you will never see the time machine again. A possible time line: a guy arrives in a time machine in 1980 and kill the Doc, the time machine will never be built in this time line.
BTTF is a mix between the two approaches and is totally inconsistent. A time ripple is a continuous shifting between two time lines. How can this be? In BTTF1, the photo shows Marty's family fading away. Actually, it could as well be blinking : family disappears, Marty notice that something is wrong, family appears, Marty doesn't care any more, family disappear, etc. In fact, Marty shouldn't exist at all in the second time line. Don't tell me that the personality change of George didn't change his sexual behaviour too . The time ripples are inexplicable. In 2015, every building should be morphing around Doc and Marty . Marty, Doc and the time machine should fade away too ...
Wha! This post is a mess!
But, untangling the potential paradoxes is half the fun of being a BTTF fan.
So true! Of course, I love BTTF too , but not for its consistency around the time travelling theory.
How could you kill your father without it affecting your existence? Is it just coz ur now in a new timeline?
Yes, since it's a different timeline, the other you would be like a clone of yourself. Killing your clone or your clone father wouldn't affect your existence, since you were born in a different time line...
This rule applies sometimes in BTTF, for instance when Biff went back to the past a gave the almanac, he also prevents the time machine itself of being invented.
take a look again the shadow in front of the clock on the flyer and on the badge the lady is wearing is not Doc, its one of the gargoyles that are on either side of the clock face on the clock tower, the picture is taken from an angle so it looks like it is on/in front of the clock but its to the side of the clock.
take a look again the shadow in front of the clock on the flyer and on the badge the lady is wearing is not Doc, its one of the gargoyles that are on either side of the clock face on the clock tower, the picture is taken from an angle so it looks like it is on/in front of the clock but its to the side of the clock.
Hm... didn't someone say that it's more likely a mark from the lightning bolt? (I can't find this post here anymore). It does look more like a mark than a shadow. Or a gargoyle.
Yea it was me who said it may be a mark from the lightning but i deleted the post after i took a look at the movie because there is a mark but its to small and on the wrong side of the clock face.
Well, I don't have the first BttF on me at the moment, but in BttF2 the mark on the clock towers looks alright and on the right side, and almost the right size.
Not saying it definitely IS him, but I've thought about it, and...well, why COULDN'T it be him?
Based on the picture of Red and how old the bum looks, they would appear to be about the same age in two different eras. Then again, Strickland doesn't look that much older in 1985...
Well, I don't have the first BttF on me at the moment, but in BttF2 the mark on the clock towers looks alright and on the right side, and almost the right size.
Your right, the burn mark is on the right side (just checked my DVD), When i checked last time i checked by watching a youtube video and I just rechecked that youtube video and noticed that the youtube video had been flipped (probably trying to avoid copyright laws) the burn mark is on the right side.
Is there a logical explanation? It doesn't make sense.
When future Biff went back in time and changed everything, DOC got sent to an institution therefore he never invented time travel.
Now surely if this was the case then Biff wouldn't get the opportunity to go back and change things. This would cause a huge paradox.
One thing about this movie that strikes me as odd is Doc's weird time-logic.
I mean, why travel to the future to correct wrongs that haven't yet occured? It's like he's saying, "You're son, whom you haven't had yet, is going to get arrested in 30 years! There's no time to take the truck for a spin! We're late! Hurry! We've only got 30 years!". It's ridiculuous. I mean he's got all the time he wants; he's got a time machine!
Something I wondered about--we only see Doc's return from Marty's perspective. We also know Doc often omits information from people (think of how hard he tried to avoid telling Marty and Jennifer their futures) and that he did do a little more time travelling other than 2015.
What if Doc's first return to 1985 wasn't the one we saw in the film, but say, 10 minutes later or something? Imagine during his first return he directly tells and prevents Marty from racing Needles. But this Marty still easily loses his judgment (after all, this Marty never learned the lessons from 1955/1885) and possibly gets in a state far worse than the one we saw in 2015. Maybe this is why Doc said "I can't tell you, it might make things worse" in third film?
So in that scenario, Doc goes back in time yet again, to an earlier point in 1985 (the one in the film), to prevent his screw-up and then work on the next best thing to help Marty, by helping Marty's kids.
It means that- given the multiple-universe theory that seems to keep popping up in our discussions- either it is possible for there to exist a universe where Marty went immediately to 1985 or else went to 1885 anyway without knowing Doc's fate; or else if the former holds true, then there could either be two Marty's in the current 1985 timeline (one with a possibly non-destroyed DeLorean) or else end-of-BTTF3 Marty's temporal signature caused him to be sent back to his original post-BTTF1 timeline.
Comments
As you can see, I am a proponent of the "multiverse" theory of how the BTTF universe works, though I hate that term. I'd rather call it "multiple time lines", with the "original" time line being the one without any time travel interventions, and a new time line splitting off (as Doc shows on the chalkboard in BTTFII) when a traveler goes back to the past and makes changes. Having everything take place on the one original time line would just create too many headaches (and paradoxes) and would involve time loops, as far as I can tell.
I mean, why travel to the future to correct wrongs that haven't yet occured? It's like he's saying, "You're son, whom you haven't had yet, is going to get arrested in 30 years! There's no time to take the truck for a spin! We're late! Hurry! We've only got 30 years!". It's ridiculuous. I mean he's got all the time he wants; he's got a time machine!
Why not take Clara with them in Part III? It's not like taking her with them would screw things up more than saving her from her fated death, right? In fact, wouldn't it kinda undo any potential damage by making her disappear from the past in around the same year she was supposed to?
The nice thing was: that oversight, also saved them from being ran over by the locomotive, which Doc failed to think might be cruising down a track that was "safe an still in use" in 1985. It's just great how things come together.
Doc won't let Marty keep the Sports Almanac, even though he said he wanted to know who won the next world series. Doc even Patronizes him, like he never thought such thoughts himself.
And then there's the whole, if you see your other self you could create a time pardox that could destroy the universe thing. That didn't ever happen...
Point is: Doc can be pretty crazy. I tend to chalk it up to his being an "absent-minded professor" or a "mad scientist". He's invented the time machine, but I'm convinced that even he's not entirely sure of exactly how time travel works. Understandable, since I imagine it would get very confusing.
Blow me down... is that Doc hanging from the clock on her badge?
1. Why is Doc there?
2. Why was someone taking a picture?
We call that an inside-joke.
I just noticed it's called Lou's Aerobics Fitness Centre.
EDIT: BAH! I really need to check the next page before replying to new posts.
Continuing the clock inside joke, one of Doc's clocks at the beginning had a man hanging from it.
Still haven't worked out why someone was taking a picture of Doc hanging.
It's likely he ACTUALLY was doing a weather experiment originally.
But, untangling the potential paradoxes is half the fun of being a BTTF fan.
I think this is wrong. You can make it consistent by choosing either of the deterministic approach, or the one with different time lines, but it will be more scientific and less entertaining for the public.
Deterministic: Only one time line, you can't change the future nor the past, all is already written. The Greek was great with this. Gods had no notion of time, they saw the future and the past as a whole. The Sphinx told Oedipus that he was going to murder his father and marry his mother. And that's by trying to avoid his fate that Oedipus actually did.
How to introduce a time machine with deterministic rules? Not easy. You can't make any character control it, because he, human being, wouldn't resist to try to change the past. So you have to make the time machine uncontrollable (inaccuracy or mystical will). The time machine (or plot maker) choose where to send the character. The character can't interact directly with himself. I love Twelve Monkeys, hard to find plot holes due to time travelling... The problem with deterministic approach is that there is no alternative time line, which is such a restriction for the plot.
Now the approach with time lines: When you travel back in time, you appear in a new time line. You can kill your father or even your alternative yourself without any consequences on the actual yourself. You can also clone yourself endlessly by going back 1 minute in the past and avoiding the alternate you to do it himself. You can prevent the time machine of being built. However, if someone else takes the time machine (like old Biff in BTTF2), you will never see the time machine again. A possible time line: a guy arrives in a time machine in 1980 and kill the Doc, the time machine will never be built in this time line.
BTTF is a mix between the two approaches and is totally inconsistent. A time ripple is a continuous shifting between two time lines. How can this be? In BTTF1, the photo shows Marty's family fading away. Actually, it could as well be blinking
Wha! This post is a mess! So true! Of course, I love BTTF too
No it's not him. Michael J. Fox just ad-libbed 'Red'.
Also it couldn't be him if you think about it.
This rule applies sometimes in BTTF, for instance when Biff went back to the past a gave the almanac, he also prevents the time machine itself of being invented.
Maybe the clock tower people were referencing quite another movie, so it would be Harold Lloyd on that badge, not Christopher?
Not saying it definitely IS him, but I've thought about it, and...well, why COULDN'T it be him?
Sad to say it, but that isn't Doc.
It'd be cool if it was, but it isn't.
Based on the picture of Red and how old the bum looks, they would appear to be about the same age in two different eras. Then again, Strickland doesn't look that much older in 1985...
Your right, the burn mark is on the right side (just checked my DVD), When i checked last time i checked by watching a youtube video and I just rechecked that youtube video and noticed that the youtube video had been flipped (probably trying to avoid copyright laws) the burn mark is on the right side.
That'll teach me for being to lazy to get my DVD.
This pretty much confirms it is a burn mark:
When future Biff went back in time and changed everything, DOC got sent to an institution therefore he never invented time travel.
Now surely if this was the case then Biff wouldn't get the opportunity to go back and change things. This would cause a huge paradox.
Something I wondered about--we only see Doc's return from Marty's perspective. We also know Doc often omits information from people (think of how hard he tried to avoid telling Marty and Jennifer their futures) and that he did do a little more time travelling other than 2015.
What if Doc's first return to 1985 wasn't the one we saw in the film, but say, 10 minutes later or something? Imagine during his first return he directly tells and prevents Marty from racing Needles. But this Marty still easily loses his judgment (after all, this Marty never learned the lessons from 1955/1885) and possibly gets in a state far worse than the one we saw in 2015. Maybe this is why Doc said "I can't tell you, it might make things worse" in third film?
So in that scenario, Doc goes back in time yet again, to an earlier point in 1985 (the one in the film), to prevent his screw-up and then work on the next best thing to help Marty, by helping Marty's kids.
But then this is just a theory.
And his meddling made Jennifer end up looking completely different.
He decided to get her another father, cause the original one would shoot Marty in the... uhm... let's call it, 'place', and Marty wouldn't have kids.
Are you serious?
Have you seen how old Mayor Red Thomas looked like?
Then we go 30 years in the future and he suddenly looks younger?!
It means that- given the multiple-universe theory that seems to keep popping up in our discussions- either it is possible for there to exist a universe where Marty went immediately to 1985 or else went to 1885 anyway without knowing Doc's fate; or else if the former holds true, then there could either be two Marty's in the current 1985 timeline (one with a possibly non-destroyed DeLorean) or else end-of-BTTF3 Marty's temporal signature caused him to be sent back to his original post-BTTF1 timeline.