It just now occurs to me that the continuum really does show obvious evidence of trying to prevent paradoxes if at all possible (an idea posited in the BTTF DVD FAQ), to the point of affecting the speed of the ripple effect itself; ie. altering the laws of physics.
When Marty saved his dad from being hit by the car, the continuum's paradox-creating ripple effect took place very slowly. Only after a week in real time did the consequences start to catch up with Marty. However, when his parents kissed at the dance, the second ripple effect- the one that stopped the paradox- caught up with the first one in a matter of seconds.
Makes sense. And it kinda fits with a lot of time travel theories. Even the new Star Trek movie kind of touched on this, that bringing the Enterprise's crew together when they shouldn't have been there was the timeline trying to repair itself.
The "Biff is an Idiot" theory actually holds a lot of ground. While 2015 biff was smarter than 55 biff, I don't think he would have thought his time travel through. I think he returned to 2015 expecting to reap the riches that he had given young biff. (That make since doesn't it) And the reason he went back to his 2015 was that the new timeline required the existence of the old one. No old biff, no Almanac, no new timeline.
On a completely unrelated side note, I always wondered how Biff managed to not change anything that would invalidate information in the Almanac. Of course, maybe he just stopped using it once he got rich.
I cannot believe that Doc and Marty did not notice that the LAST TIME DEPARTED display said:
NOV 12 1955 6:00am (not sure of the time of day or not) it should have said OCT 26 1985 (insert time of day in the morning when Doc arrived in 1985). before they left 2015!
I cannot believe that Doc and Marty did not notice that the LAST TIME DEPARTED display said:
NOV 12 1955 6:00am (not sure of the time of day or not) it should have said OCT 26 1985 (insert time of day in the morning when Doc arrived in 1985). before they left 2015!
Heck, I caught that in the theater in 1989!
They had no reason to check the display. Doc was rather intent on just getting back to 85, and probably wasn't thinking things through.
They had no reason to check the display. Doc was rather intent on just getting back to 85, and probably wasn't thinking things through.
Actually, any normal human would have every reason to check the display. There is a very good reason that the "Last departed" reading exists: it's there so that you know exactly which moment to return to, without having to keep the exact time, down to the last second, in your head. For normal people that would be a challenge, but of course Doc isn't normal and that explains why he didn't bother to check the display. So it isn't necessarily a mistake in the film, but it could have been.
Had Biff been smart (and familiar with how the time machinery works) you could have speculated that maybe he was smart enough to make a second stop on his way back to 2015, to ensure that the display showed the correct departure date when Doc and Marty returned to the car. But now I don't think that Biff is that smart, so we have to assume that Doc had the departure date memorized.
I'm pretty sure I've found a plot-hole in part 3, but I can't quite remember exactly what it was... I think it had something to do with the Shonash Ravine being called Clayton Ravine back in 1955, although - with 1985-Doc already back in 1885 - Clara didn't fall into the Ravine, because Doc picked her up from the train station (so that the Ravine wasn't named after her), and 1955-Doc would've never known it as the Clayton Ravine (and still he calls it that).
Of course, we never know if Clara didn't fall into the Ravine AFTER Doc's death in 1885, so it might just as well not be a plot-hole at all.
That used to confuse me. Just think of it like this: Marty is from a timeline where Doc doesn't go back to 1885, so he remembers a ravine being called Clayton ravine, that's cause without Doc in 1885 Clara would not wait for someone to pick her up and end up being thrown from her horse and thrown into the ravine, where the ravine is named after her.
Doc arrives in 1885 before those events and picks up Clara so she doesn't get thrown in the ravine and Doc is none the wiser that he's saved her life. The ravine is named Shonash ravine.
Marty goes back to 1885 before Clara is meant to die and distracts Doc by talking to Doc about getting them both back, so Clara gives up waiting for Doc and goes off and thats when Doc and Marty save her, and the ravine ends up being called Eastwood Ravine.
Doc also has memories of the ravine being called Clayton Ravine, as his memories may not change, it's still unclear whether they will.
Doc always talks about an alternate timeline being created whenever something is changed in the past. ALTERNATE, that means the original one still exists. Thus, characters shouldn't be erased out of existence whenever this happens.
That used to confuse me. Just think of it like this: Marty is from a timeline where Doc doesn't go back to 1885, so he remembers a ravine being called Clayton ravine, that's cause without Doc in 1885 Clara would not wait for someone to pick her up and end up being thrown from her horse and thrown into the ravine, where the ravine is named after her.
Doc arrives in 1885 before those events and picks up Clara so she doesn't get thrown in the ravine and Doc is none the wiser that he's saved her life. The ravine is named Shonash ravine.
Marty goes back to 1885 before Clara is meant to die and distracts Doc by talking to Doc about getting them both back, so Clara gives up waiting for Doc and goes off and thats when Doc and Marty save her, and the ravine ends up being called Eastwood Ravine.
Doc also has memories of the ravine being called Clayton Ravine, as his memories may not change, it's still unclear whether they will.
I just spent several hours reading this thread . Loved it. However, the one thing that's always bothered me has actually not been discussed in this thread yet! Check it:
It's been awhile since I've seen BTTF3 so I apologize if this is out of order, but the question still remains valid. At the end of BTTF3, Marty comes back to 1985, the DeLorean is destroyed, he runs home, sees everything is back to normal, gets the truck, picks up Jennifer...........and they JUST HAPPEN to be in the exact same location where they see Needles, Needles challenges him to a race, & Marty would've hit the Rolls Royce had he accepted???? Originally Marty's daily routine would have been VERY different.
Also, the Bobs missed the chance of a pretty big gag. I know that Needles' full name is Douglas J. Needles...but dude if you're going to have a character named Needles, at least make him a Peabody!
I just spent several hours reading this thread . Loved it. However, the one thing that's always bothered me has actually not been discussed in this thread yet! Check it:
It's been awhile since I've seen BTTF3 so I apologize if this is out of order, but the question still remains valid. At the end of BTTF3, Marty comes back to 1985, the DeLorean is destroyed, he runs home, sees everything is back to normal, gets the truck, picks up Jennifer...........and they JUST HAPPEN to be in the exact same location where they see Needles, Needles challenges him to a race, & Marty would've hit the Rolls Royce had he accepted???? Originally Marty's daily routine would have been VERY different.
Also, the Bobs missed the chance of a pretty big gag. I know that Needles' full name is Douglas J. Needles...but dude if you're going to have a character named Needles, at least make him a Peabody!
Look at what the characters plans were;
When marty returns from 1955 at the end of part I, it seems the plans are still to go to the lake saturday night. Although it's not confirmed, the crash could have happened when they were returning.
in part II, it was return to 1985 (Doc picks 9 pm, not sure why), for marty to go home for the night and pick Jennifer up in the morning. . So the accident likely still happens on the morning of October 27th (marty still hasn't learned not to lose his judgement when he's called a name at this point).
at the end of part III, doc sends marty back in the morning of October 27th for him to go back and get jennifer. He takes her to the wreck of the delorean but you could argue this is the same path to the lake.
It does seem to fit the BTTF model that the space time continum does have similar things happen in alternate timelines;
-Lorraines brother joey ends up in jail in 2 or 3 different timelines; the first timeline at the beginning of part I, the alternate timeline where biff is rich and a deleted scene where he's still in jail in 2015
-george and lorraine end up together albeit in different circumstances
-doc ends up with clara in 2 different ways; first he volunteers and meets her at the train station (in the timeline where doc is in 1885 without marty) and then he saves her.
-marty does end up with Jennifer in 2 different timelines (the first and second that we do see)
at the end of part III, doc sends marty back in the morning of October 27th for him to go back and get jennifer. He takes her to the wreck of the delorean but you could argue this is the same path to the lake.
Quite true, but my question is more about timing. The Marty setting off for the lake & the Marty returning from 1885 before setting off would have had very different routines, but both paths lead the Martys to that intersection & the exact same time? This is especially true if, like you postulated, the crash could have happened when Marty & Jennifer were returning from the lake.
Quite true, but my question is more about timing. The Marty setting off for the lake & the Marty returning from 1885 before setting off would have had very different routines, but both paths lead the Martys to that intersection & the exact same time? This is especially true if, like you postulated, the crash could have happened when Marty & Jennifer were returning from the lake.
I guess it's a similar concept to; no matter how the cookie crumbled, Lorraine and George end up kissing first at the enchantment under the sea dance, Joey ends up in jail, Doc ends up with Clara, and yes Marty ends up at the same intersection as Needles next to hilldale.
Now worthy of note, I actually believe that when the accident did occur, Jennifer was not in the truck; the rolls royce came from the right so odds are it would have affected the passenger side first but it doesn't seem that Jennifer had any serious injuries in the future.
I guess it's a similar concept to; no matter how the cookie crumbled, Lorraine and George end up kissing first at the enchantment under the sea dance, Joey ends up in jail, Doc ends up with Clara, and yes Marty ends up at the same intersection as Needles next to hilldale.
Now worthy of note, I actually believe that when the accident did occur, Jennifer was not in the truck; the rolls royce came from the right so odds are it would have affected the passenger side first but it doesn't seem that Jennifer had any serious injuries in the future.
Great points. I never thought about the royce approaching from the right! And yeah, future Lorraine refers to the accident as Marty's accident (or your father, something along those lines) when talking to Marty & Jennifer's daughter. She doesn't say "when your parents were in the accident."
Okay, these are a few time travel related issues in the trilogy which I haven't seen much discussion about on most BTTF forums. So I decided to post them here and would be glad if people here could share their views on these.
1. In the final timeline at the end of BTTF3 (the 'Eastwood' timeline), when 2015 comes around, will younger Marty, Doc and Jennifer from BTTF2 still show up? And if they do, how different will events be from what we saw in the actual movie, considering that in this timeline, the McFly family is implied to have a much better future? In particular, will Marty Jr even get INTO trouble with Griff in this timeline in the first place?
2. So, in the Hell Valley timeline, Twin Pines Marty from BTTF1 still appears in 1955, and '55 Doc sends him back to 1955. However, unknown to BTTF1 Marty, Biff has the Almanac given to him by Old Biff and uses it to get rich and create...well...'Hell Valley'. So, would the Marty who was been sent forward through time by Doc, arrive in Hell Valley 1985? Could there possibly be THREE Marty's roaming about in Hell Valley 1985-Hell Valley Marty, Twin Pines Marty from BTTF1, and 'our' Marty who has returned from 2015?
3. In the final 'Eastwood' timeline, what happens between the hours of 9:00 PM on October 26th and 2:42 AM on October 27th, 1985. Do Marty, Doc and Jennifer still return from 2015, only to find that everything is normal? Do they then deduce that they need to go back to 1955 by other means (questioning Eastwood Biff for instance, who would remember 'Calvin Klien' stealing back the Almanac from him). Or is there simply no trace of Marty and Doc during that period? In which case, do Jennifer and Einstien simply FADE into existence in the porch and lab respectively?
4. What DO 2015 Marty and Jennifer, seen in BTTF2, remember? Do they remember Doc coming back and taking them to the future? What do they remember of THEIR trip to 2015? 2015 Marty obviously doesn't remember 1985-A, or travelling back to 1885 because those events haven't 'happened' yet? So what does he remember of his return to 1985?
Now I have my own views on these...but I would be interested to hear other views on these subjects...
Okay, these are a few time travel related issues in the trilogy which I haven't seen much discussion about on most BTTF forums. So I decided to post them here and would be glad if people here could share their views on these.
1. In the final timeline at the end of BTTF3 (the 'Eastwood' timeline), when 2015 comes around, will younger Marty, Doc and Jennifer from BTTF2 still show up? And if they do, how different will events be from what we saw in the actual movie, considering that in this timeline, the McFly family is implied to have a much better future? In particular, will Marty Jr even get INTO trouble with Griff in this timeline in the first place? [quote/] It obviously still exists to some extent as we see biff from this time period in 1955. I can't imagine it would, the timeline has changed (though perhaps Marty Jr and Griff still interact the same way). Just like with alternate timelines, it's likely the time travelers would be the only ones remembering the previous timeline.
2. So, in the Hell Valley timeline, Twin Pines Marty from BTTF1 still appears in 1955, and '55 Doc sends him back to 1955. However, unknown to BTTF1 Marty, Biff has the Almanac given to him by Old Biff and uses it to get rich and create...well...'Hell Valley'. So, would the Marty who was been sent forward through time by Doc, arrive in Hell Valley 1985? Could there possibly be THREE Marty's roaming about in Hell Valley 1985-Hell Valley Marty, Twin Pines Marty from BTTF1, and 'our' Marty who has returned from 2015?
[quote/] doubt it. I think everyones timeline is sequential so that Marty would go back to LP 1985, then eventually LP 2015, back to biffhoric 1985 etc.
3. In the final 'Eastwood' timeline, what happens between the hours of 9:00 PM on October 26th and 2:42 AM on October 27th, 1985. Do Marty, Doc and Jennifer still return from 2015, only to find that everything is normal? Do they then deduce that they need to go back to 1955 by other means (questioning Eastwood Biff for instance, who would remember 'Calvin Klien' stealing back the Almanac from him). Or is there simply no trace of Marty and Doc during that period? In which case, do Jennifer and Einstien simply FADE into existence in the porch and lab respectively?
[quote/] If they return and live their normal lives then what happens at 11 AM on october 27th when marty returns from 1885? To be honest I can't come up with a rational response other than possibly similar to what we see in episode 5 from the game; eastwood marty fades out and TP Marty shows up in the delorean. It does seem Jennifer's been sleeping on the porch all night. Not sure what you can call her, Eastwood Jennifer? She likely would not remember Clayton/Shonash ravine since she wasnt part of the time travel that changed it
4. What DO 2015 Marty and Jennifer, seen in BTTF2, remember? Do they remember Doc coming back and taking them to the future? What do they remember of THEIR trip to 2015? 2015 Marty obviously doesn't remember 1985-A, or travelling back to 1885 because those events haven't 'happened' yet? So what does he remember of his return to 1985?
Now I have my own views on these...but I would be interested to hear other views on these subjects...
So 2015 marty remembers going back to 1955 in part I (theres plenty of evidence suggesting this is part of the timeline in 2015. The ledge is still broken from doc on on the clocktower, George is not a loser). I think it's the same concept as Doc in 1885 not remembering his second visit from marty in 1955 or 2015 biff not remembering getting visited by a crazy old codger in 1955. Now there is a theory that their 2015 counterparts are remembering the events as they are going along so 2015 Jennifer is gaining two sets of memories seeing herself (remember it from her 17 year old and 47 year old perspective) hence the shock happening. If you've seen the deleted/extended scene after 2015 Jennifer faints, 2015 Marty assumes she's 'tranked' even though his younger self does know that she fainted.
Thanks for your inputs. Actually your ideas and mine on these subjects are pretty similar-
1. Its true that the Old Biff of LP 2015 will still appear in Eastwood 1955 and give his younger self the Almanac. But that doesn't mean that in Eastwood 2015, Old Biff still has to steal the Delorean. From the films and the Game, one gets the impression that the arrival of time travelers from the future in the past remains intact even if the future they've arrived from is erased (which explains how Marty from TP 1985 is still around in 1955 in BTTF2, even though TP 1985 has been replaced with 1985-A).
Personally, I believe that when 2015 comes around in the new timeline, Marty, Doc and Jennifer's 1985 selves WON'T appear. Marty Jr. won't get into trouble with Griff, Griff may get into the robbery himself and get arrested, and the 2015 selves of 'our' Marty and Jennifer will likely be having a 'quiet' celebration of living this day 'again' and thanking their lucky stars that things are much better.
LP 2015, according to me, is akin to 1985-A, or even TP 1985 for that matter. Marty (and in this case, Doc and Jennifer) will remember it because he travelled to that timeline, but for all intents and purposes, it was completely erased.
2. Again, I agree with you completely. I don't believe TP Marty will show up in Hell Valley 1985. However, the only flaw in logic hear is that time travel into the future takes one to the 'most likely future', and in the Hell Valley timeline, the most likely future when the lightining bolt strikes the Delorean at 10:04 pm on November 12th 1955, at a time when Biff is in the possession of the Almanac, is Hell Valley 1985. Then again, logic doesn't really count for much in this franchise I'm afraid...
3. I personally feel that there was no sign of Marty, Doc, Jennifer OR Einstien during those late night/early morning hours in the Eastwood timeline; at 2:42 PM, Jennifer and Einstien simply 'fade back' into existence. I've inferred this based on Doc's statement that the timeline would 'transform around' them...if he meant that they would literally be able to perceive Hell Valley transforming into normal Hill Valley. If that is the case, then from the POV of anyone else in Eastwood 1985, Jennifer and Einy should literally be fading INTO existence. If the timeline did transform around them, then Jennifer should IMO remember Clayton Ravine (though of course, I believe that once the timeline transformed, she would remember Eastwood Ravine as well).
The only problem here is that the situation is supposedly similar to that at the end of BTTF2/start of BTTF3, and yet the resolution is different. Doc travels back to 1885, and Lone Pine 1955 thus 'ripples' into Shonash 1955. And yet, though 1955 has already been altered owing to a time jump made earlier back, the arrivals of time travelers from the future...such as TP Marty, LP Old Biff, and TP/LP Marty and LP Doc is 'preserved'. These time travelers arrive from the future in Shonash 1955, unaware that this isn't the 1955 they 'originally' visited on this trip. Likewise, in this situation, Marty and Doc have altered events in 1955 (and later, in 1885), such that Hell Valley 1985 'ripples' into Eastwood 1985...but why shouldn't the arrival of time travelers from the future, namely Marty, Doc and Jennifer from 2015, remain intact. They should logically arrive in 1985, not knowing that this is not the version of 1985 they were 'originally' supposed to arrive back in...Maybe their not arriving is the universe's way of avoiding a paradox!
4. This one I admit I'm completely stumped at. First of all, the question of how the future selves can even EXIST is one which the two Bobs have only halfway explained satisfactorily. As far as 2015 Marty's memory...well, I initially believe that he simply doesn't even remember traveling to 2015...from his POV, Doc never came back to pick him and Jennifer up at the end of BTTF1 and he had the accident the next day. But seeing as Old Biff remembers seeing the Delorean, the 2015 we see is clearly a world in which Marty, Doc and Jennifer DID travel to 2015 from 1985...but obviously Marty and Jen DID return to 1985 based on their presence in 2015.
I suppose the explanation that they are simultaneously gaining memories of what their 1985 selves are doing does kinda work...but still, 2015 Marty doesn't really seem much aware of his younger self's presence in Hilldale.
Nevertheless, regardless of what they remember, it is clear that in the history of the LP timeline, at some point on October 26th, Marty and Jennifer HAD to have returned, and Marty did get into the accident with Needles. I'm curious to know under what circumstances they returned to 1985, and how exactly did Marty come to be driving the truck in this timeline.
I guess, the best answer to these issues is that while BTTF operates on a single alterable timeline model...it is clear that there is some concept of 'meta-time' at play here, which allows time travelers to travel into and from erased/alternate timelines, and retain their memories of those timelines.
It would seem that BTTF uses a combination of (or perhaps something in between) both a multiple-dimension universe (where multiple timelines coexist in different dimensions) and a single-dimension universe (where one and only one timeline exists).
On a storytelling level, Bob Gale has said that the effects/consequences of time travel change depending on what is required of the story.
On a pseudo-scientific level, I would say that it seems as though the timeline is analogous to such as a VHS tape, where a time traveller can go back and "record over" past events, but the previous "data" is technically still there, just overwritten. Just as when data on a hard drive is deleted or overwritten, it's not actually gone.
This is evident by the fact that Twin Pines Marty is seen in 1955 in BTTF2 instead of Lone Pine Marty. I would hazard a bet that when Twin Pines Marty goes back to 1985 in BTTF2, he appears in the appropriate Lone Pine timeline just as he should, even though the Lone Pine timeline was overwritten by the Hell Valley timeline.
In another way of thinking, if you considered only the events of the currently visible timeline as a whole at that point, it would then appear that in BTTF2 when Twin Pines Marty went back to the future, he jumped forward into oblivion. However, it only appears that way, since you can't visibly see goings on of the previously existing timelines that are buried beneath.
If this were to hold true, I would then think that a paradox occurs when actions taken during time travel cause aspects of two or more timelines to fight to overwrite each other simultaneously.
It would seem that BTTF uses a combination of (or perhaps something in between) both a multiple-dimension universe (where multiple timelines coexist in different dimensions) and a single-dimension universe (where one and only one timeline exists).
On a storytelling level, Bob Gale has said that the effects/consequences of time travel change depending on what is required of the story.
On a pseudo-scientific level, I would say that it seems as though the timeline is analogous to such as a VHS tape, where a time traveller can go back and "record over" past events, but the previous "data" is technically still there, just overwritten. Just as when data on a hard drive is deleted or overwritten, it's not actually gone.
This is evident by the fact that Twin Pines Marty is seen in 1955 in BTTF2 instead of Lone Pine Marty. I would hazard a bet that when Twin Pines Marty goes back to 1985 in BTTF2, he appears in the appropriate Lone Pine timeline just as he should, even though the Lone Pine timeline was overwritten by the Hell Valley timeline.
In another way of thinking, if you considered only the events of the currently visible timeline as a whole at that point, it would then appear that in BTTF2 when Twin Pines Marty went back to the future, he jumped forward into oblivion. However, it only appears that way, since you can't visibly see goings on of the previously existing timelines that are buried beneath.
If this were to hold true, I would then think that a paradox occurs when actions taken during time travel cause aspects of two or more timelines to fight to overwrite each other simultaneously.
Yeah, I have a similar theory as to how BTTF time travel works and I admit you've put it much more eloquently than I would have
That said, the way I see it, there is some dimension of 'meta-time' in which all aspects of alternate/erased timelines are preserved. Time travelers who arrive from erased timelines arrive from this dimension, and those who travel TO erased or alternate timelines are shifted into this dimension. There is however only one TRUE timeline, and whatever events from the previous timeline which CAN be incorporated into this timeline are incorporated.
So, considering the Eastwood timeline...well, the events of 1955, which occurred in previous timelines, CAN logically occur in the Eastwood timeline, so they DO occur. The events of Hell Valley 1985 however CANNOT be fit into the Eastwood timeline, and so they DON'T occur and the time travelers instead disappear from the normal timeline, and are shifted into this 'meta-time' Limbo for that duration.
Now, this still doesn't explain the conundrum of the future selves, but I suppose no one can really explain THAT satisfactorily...
The future selves part (ie. old Marty existing in 2015 when young Marty has been gone for 30 years), as I recall, has been suggested by some on here to be the timeline's projection of that person's destiny.
EDIT: Then again, as I read previous posts, it has also been said that the reason why future Marty exists in 2015 is because the ripple effect hadn't caught up yet. This is to say that had Marty stayed in 2015 for a significant period of time, it would have changed to a future where he never returned to the past. I tend to believe this more.
The future selves part (ie. old Marty existing in 2015 when young Marty has been gone for 30 years), as I recall, has been suggested by some on here to be the timeline's projection of that person's destiny.
EDIT: Then again, as I read previous posts, it has also been said that the reason why future Marty exists in 2015 is because the ripple effect hadn't caught up yet. This is to say that had Marty stayed in 2015 for a significant period of time, it would have changed to a future where he never returned to the past. I tend to believe this more.
I used to believe that too...and yet, we're seeing a reality in which Marty and Jennifer DID leave for 2015 from 1985. Old Biff remembers seeing the flying Delorean. This means, logically, that 2015 Marty was in the car and traveled to the future. But this Marty did return to 1985, obviously, but he certainly did not go through the remaining adventures of 'our' Marty in BTTF2 and 3, since he had not learnt how to deal with the chicken problem and instead raced Needles and injured himself.
As far as LP 2015 goes, according to the linear chronological timeline, Marty disappears in a flying Delorean on October 26th 1985 at around 10:40 AM in the morning. He returns at some point later in the day. Presumably he and Jennifer go to the lake and spend the night there. Marty may have dropped Jennifer off at her house the next morning, October 27th 1985, and while driving away, at around 11: 30ish, encounters Needles, gets into the drag race with him, and breaks his hand. He then spends the next thirty years 'feeling sorry for himself', marrying Jennifer, raising two less than perfect kids, and ending up working in a dead-end job with Needles. Then, on October 21st 2015, he is sitting in his house getting fired while teenage Jennifer and his own younger self are roaming about, seemingly unknown to him.
But now, let us attempt to reconstruct the PERSONAL timeline of that Marty. From this Marty's POV, he's in the Delorean with Doc and Jennifer on October 26th morning, the Delorean accelerates to 88 miles per hour in mid-air and he travels to 2015. THEN what?
Okay, let us assume that just as we see in the movie, Doc explains his scheme to save Marty Jr. from being arrested. Marty takes his son's place, faces off against Griff, the hoverboard chase happens and Griff gets arrested instead. Fine, this part is clear.
But now we get to the point where, in the actual movie, Marty gets the idea to buy the Almanac. Does THIS Marty ALSO see the Almanac? Logically, assuming the events in 2015 HAVE played out exactly as we saw in the film, the Clocktower guy SHOULD inadvertently give Marty the inspiration to win at gambling with the Almanac. Nothing in this Marty's personal timeline would logically be different from that of 'our' Marty. Then, in that case, Doc would return to fetch Marty and Old Biff should see the flying Delorean and remember it disappearing thirty years ago! Just like in the movie, he would learn about the time machine and the Almanac, and get the idea to steal them. And just like in the movie, Jennifer would be found by the cops and taken to Hilldale...NOTHING could possibly be different from the timeline we see in the movie.
You see where this is going...don't you? If events progress like they do in the movie, then Old Biff would successfully steal the Delorean...which means that it would be impossible for this Marty to return to LP 1985, and get into the accident with Needles on October 27th (which, according to the linear timeline, we've established he DID get into). In fact, this Marty would go through the remaining events of BTTF2 and 3, and eventually NOT race Needles...which means he is indistinguishable from 'our' Marty. And that means, we still don't know where the Marty who returned to LP 1985 and raced Needles came from!
In order for 2015 Marty to exist, as we see him, it is necessary for the events in 2015 (which took place in HIS personal past) to in some way and at some point diverge from the events experianced by 'our' Marty in 2015. Either this Marty never got the idea to use the Almanac, or Old Biff didn't steal the Delorean...SOMETHING had to be different such that it was possible for Doc to return Jennifer and Marty to LP 1985 such that Marty got into the accident with Needles the next day and grew up to become the 2015 Marty we see in BTTF2.
Yeah but when you changed the past the future changes instantly when you return. A solution to the issue could be that Marty and Doc were still there and they were time travelers so it would make sense for a instant change just because Biff returned.
Yeah but when you changed the past the future changes instantly when you return. A solution to the issue could be that Marty and Doc were still there and they were time travelers so it would make sense for a instant change just because Biff returned.
Actually I don't believe that the future changes when the time traveler returns...logically it should change when the time traveler DEPARTS.
Think about it this way...the moment the time traveler disappears from the present and into the past, from the POV of any observer in the present, all the time travelers actions were already X number of years in the past, and therefore the present would ALREADY have become the consequences of the altered past.
I mean, look at the case of Doc going back to 1885. Doc gets sent back to 1885, and the moment he vanishes, from Marty's POV, he has already lived and died seventy years in the past...as evidenced by the fact that the Western Union man arrives just a couple of minutes later. Doc never returned to 1955...and yet the timeline transformed. So the time travelers return to the present is not necessarily in order for the timeline to change.
So I believe that the moment Old Biff went back, LP 2015 became 2015-A and transformed around Marty, Doc and Jennifer. Of course, its likely that Old Biff returned the very moment he departed, so yeah, in that case it is possible to perceive his return trip as being the cause of the changes. But fundamentally, it is the DEPARTURE that alters the timeline.
It's pretty much accepted at this point that 2015 changes around them, they just don't notice because they're carrying an unconscious Jennifer back to the car. What astounds me at times is that Doc didn't notice that the DeLorean was slightly iced, nor did he notice that his Last Time Departed was reading November 12th, 1955.
It's pretty much accepted at this point that 2015 changes around them, they just don't notice because they're carrying an unconscious Jennifer back to the car. What astounds me at times is that Doc didn't notice that the DeLorean was slightly iced, nor did he notice that his Last Time Departed was reading November 12th, 1955.
The whole icing thing was pretty much ignored in BTTF2 and 3 (an in-story rationale could be that Doc got rid of the icing problem when he first upgraded the Delorean in 2015).
Interestingly, in the original script, Doc DID notice that the Last Time Departed was different (September 20th 1967 in that version)...but he assumed that Einstien messed around with the time circuits or they were malfunctioning or something. As a result, in that script, Doc and Marty figured out the date Biff went back to easily enough...they just needed to discover the circumstances.
The icing isn't ignored. It's just less prevalent in the subsequent time travels, presumably to save money. But after each time travel, the DeLorean does have light icing on it and is "steaming".
The whole icing thing was pretty much ignored in BTTF2 and 3 (an in-story rationale could be that Doc got rid of the icing problem when he first upgraded the Delorean in 2015).
Interestingly, in the original script, Doc DID notice that the Last Time Departed was different (September 20th 1967 in that version)...but he assumed that Einstien messed around with the time circuits or they were malfunctioning or something. As a result, in that script, Doc and Marty figured out the date Biff went back to easily enough...they just needed to discover the circumstances.
Yeah that was a weak part of the script. doc assumes Einstein was touching the keypad (which is illogical because at no point is it ever indicated the last time Departed can be manually changed).
Yeah that was a weak part of the script. doc assumes Einstein was touching the keypad (which is illogical because at no point is it ever indicated the last time Departed can be manually changed).
Yeah, that's true. I was wondering about that myself when I first read the script.
That said, Doc not noticing the Last Time Departed is SOMEWHAT understandable. He is somewhat agitated as they are preparing to leave for 2015...after the whole incident with the two Jennifer's, and has just made up his mind to give up time travelling! So he's likely far too preoccupied to notice the reading.
Plus, the time circuits have been acting up anyway (he has to hit it to get it to stop flashing "Jan 01 1885") so he might have just thought it was another malfunction.
Plus, the time circuits have been acting up anyway (he has to hit it to get it to stop flashing "Jan 01 1885") so he might have just thought it was another malfunction.
That hasn't been happening yet though, that doesn't start until just before they leave biffhoric 1985 for 1955 and then again in 1955.
I used to believe that too...and yet, we're seeing a reality in which Marty and Jennifer DID leave for 2015 from 1985. Old Biff remembers seeing the flying Delorean. This means, logically, that 2015 Marty was in the car and traveled to the future. But this Marty did return to 1985, obviously, but he certainly did not go through the remaining adventures of 'our' Marty in BTTF2 and 3, since he had not learnt how to deal with the chicken problem and instead raced Needles and injured himself.
As far as LP 2015 goes, according to the linear chronological timeline, Marty disappears in a flying Delorean on October 26th 1985 at around 10:40 AM in the morning. He returns at some point later in the day. Presumably he and Jennifer go to the lake and spend the night there. Marty may have dropped Jennifer off at her house the next morning, October 27th 1985, and while driving away, at around 11: 30ish, encounters Needles, gets into the drag race with him, and breaks his hand. He then spends the next thirty years 'feeling sorry for himself', marrying Jennifer, raising two less than perfect kids, and ending up working in a dead-end job with Needles. Then, on October 21st 2015, he is sitting in his house getting fired while teenage Jennifer and his own younger self are roaming about, seemingly unknown to him.
But now, let us attempt to reconstruct the PERSONAL timeline of that Marty. From this Marty's POV, he's in the Delorean with Doc and Jennifer on October 26th morning, the Delorean accelerates to 88 miles per hour in mid-air and he travels to 2015. THEN what?
Okay, let us assume that just as we see in the movie, Doc explains his scheme to save Marty Jr. from being arrested. Marty takes his son's place, faces off against Griff, the hoverboard chase happens and Griff gets arrested instead. Fine, this part is clear.
But now we get to the point where, in the actual movie, Marty gets the idea to buy the Almanac. Does THIS Marty ALSO see the Almanac? Logically, assuming the events in 2015 HAVE played out exactly as we saw in the film, the Clocktower guy SHOULD inadvertently give Marty the inspiration to win at gambling with the Almanac. Nothing in this Marty's personal timeline would logically be different from that of 'our' Marty. Then, in that case, Doc would return to fetch Marty and Old Biff should see the flying Delorean and remember it disappearing thirty years ago! Just like in the movie, he would learn about the time machine and the Almanac, and get the idea to steal them. And just like in the movie, Jennifer would be found by the cops and taken to Hilldale...NOTHING could possibly be different from the timeline we see in the movie.
You see where this is going...don't you? If events progress like they do in the movie, then Old Biff would successfully steal the Delorean...which means that it would be impossible for this Marty to return to LP 1985, and get into the accident with Needles on October 27th (which, according to the linear timeline, we've established he DID get into). In fact, this Marty would go through the remaining events of BTTF2 and 3, and eventually NOT race Needles...which means he is indistinguishable from 'our' Marty. And that means, we still don't know where the Marty who returned to LP 1985 and raced Needles came from!
In order for 2015 Marty to exist, as we see him, it is necessary for the events in 2015 (which took place in HIS personal past) to in some way and at some point diverge from the events experianced by 'our' Marty in 2015. Either this Marty never got the idea to use the Almanac, or Old Biff didn't steal the Delorean...SOMETHING had to be different such that it was possible for Doc to return Jennifer and Marty to LP 1985 such that Marty got into the accident with Needles the next day and grew up to become the 2015 Marty we see in BTTF2.
its complicated but the way i see it is marty goes forward to 2015, buys the almanac then biff takes it from the rubbish bin, then goes back in time, marty then finds out by going to hell valley, then him and Doc changes the biff timeline to the original timeline by travelling to 1955. Now back in 2015 nothing changes because biff fails in his mission to rewrite his history, so marty and doc return to 1985 and find nothing has changed, also not expecting anything to change, then marty lives his life, breaks his hand due to his chicken complex, gets depressed and doesn't remember when his past self will go to the future or even cares because hes depressed. The fact now is there is a marty in 1955 who travelled back there because the future was messed up, then changes the future back to how it should be, then goes to 1885 to follow doc, gets over his chicken complex, goes back to 1985 and replaces the marty that originally comes back from 2015, and doesn't race with needles, hence he doesn't break his hand, then he meets doc again and the future is changed for the better, but doc leaves for 6 months and the games begin
Then again, as I read previous posts, it has also been said that the reason why future Marty exists in 2015 is because the ripple effect hadn't caught up yet. This is to say that had Marty stayed in 2015 for a significant period of time, it would have changed to a future where he never returned to the past. I tend to believe this more.
Actually, I still believe that. I think, if they had stayed in the future for more than 24 hours, then their older selves (and children) would disappear - and the timeline would be as if they were missing for thirty years. I actually got that idea from Mike Mahoney, and I think it makes sense.
As for Biff '15 remembering the DeLorean, that is the confusing part. The best explanation I can come up with is, if you had asked him about a flying DeLorean from thirty years ago prior to the event, he would think you were crazy. However, the moment he saw the DeLorean, I think it was a convergence of the two timelines.
I just don't like the idea that Marty's life would still end up in ruins, even after having gone to the future.
Of course, the whole thing could've been avoided - if Doc had just told Marty about what he saw. Then Marty would have thirty years to change things. But, I understand the out-of-universe reason of why they did it that way. The Bobs had ended the first film with no plans for a sequel.
Actually, I still believe that. I think, if they had stayed in the future for more than 24 hours, then their older selves (and children) would disappear - and the timeline would be as if they were missing for thirty years. I actually got that idea from Mike Mahoney, and I think it makes sense.
As for Biff '15 remembering the DeLorean, that is the confusing part. The best explanation I can come up with is, if you had asked him about a flying DeLorean from thirty years ago prior to the event, he would think you were crazy. However, the moment he saw the DeLorean, I think it was a convergence of the two timelines.
I just don't like the idea that Marty's life would still end up in ruins, even after having gone to the future.
Of course, the whole thing could've been avoided - if Doc had just told Marty about what he saw. Then Marty would have thirty years to change things. But, I understand the out-of-universe reason of why they did it that way. The Bobs had ended the first film with no plans for a sequel.
I've recently come up with a longer slightly more complex explanation for the presence of the future selves.
This is the way I see it. When Marty, Doc and Jennifer 'first' go to 2015, they end up in a reality where they've been missing for thirty years. Realizing there's nothing they can do about this, they return to 1985, and then Marty breaks his hand in the accident with Needles, Marty Jr. gets into trouble etc.
So now that a 'precedent' has been established and the space-time continuum 'knows' that there is a high probability that Marty, Doc and Jennifer WILL return to 2015 and lead pretty much the same lives Doc had originally seen them lead, the 'final version' of future they arrive in is one where their future selves are present and appropriately aged, having returned to 1985.
This theory would provide an explanation not only for the future self's presence, but also their memories...the future selves would remember arriving in a future where they were missing.
Actually, I still believe that. I think, if they had stayed in the future for more than 24 hours, then their older selves (and children) would disappear - and the timeline would be as if they were missing for thirty years. I actually got that idea from Mike Mahoney, and I think it makes sense.
As for Biff '15 remembering the DeLorean, that is the confusing part. The best explanation I can come up with is, if you had asked him about a flying DeLorean from thirty years ago prior to the event, he would think you were crazy. However, the moment he saw the DeLorean, I think it was a convergence of the two timelines.
I just don't like the idea that Marty's life would still end up in ruins, even after having gone to the future.
Of course, the whole thing could've been avoided - if Doc had just told Marty about what he saw. Then Marty would have thirty years to change things. But, I understand the out-of-universe reason of why they did it that way. The Bobs had ended the first film with no plans for a sequel.
Once Biff sees the DeLorean in 1985 that event is now part of the space time continuum.
I've recently come up with a longer slightly more complex explanation for the presence of the future selves.
This is the way I see it. When Marty, Doc and Jennifer 'first' go to 2015, they end up in a reality where they've been missing for thirty years. Realizing there's nothing they can do about this, they return to 1985, and then Marty breaks his hand in the accident with Needles, Marty Jr. gets into trouble etc.
So now that a 'precedent' has been established and the space-time continuum 'knows' that there is a high probability that Marty, Doc and Jennifer WILL return to 2015 and lead pretty much the same lives Doc had originally seen them lead, the 'final version' of future they arrive in is one where their future selves are present and appropriately aged, having returned to 1985.
This theory would provide an explanation not only for the future self's presence, but also their memories...the future selves would remember arriving in a future where they were missing.
The timeline must know the characters intentions. I think the timeline stays the way it was unless a junction point is changed or something happens threatening it. For instance the timeline of 2015 seems to be the same with 1985 Marty showing up there until he actually changes something. Something would have to happen to threaten to change it for it to start changing; for instance if the delorean gets damaged or let's say Marty finds out about his car accident then we'd see it changing.
Once Biff sees the DeLorean in 1985 that event is now part of the space time continuum.
The timeline must know the characters intentions. I think the timeline stays the way it was unless a junction point is changed or something happens threatening it. For instance the timeline of 2015 seems to be the same with 1985 Marty showing up there until he actually changes something. Something would have to happen to threaten to change it for it to start changing; for instance if the delorean gets damaged or let's say Marty finds out about his car accident then we'd see it changing.
You know, that's actually interesting. In BTTF3, the photograph of the tombstone kept changing based on Marty's intentions in 1885. For instance, when he decides to fight Bufford Tannen, the photograph 'ripples' into the Clint Eastwood tombstone.
Now if the reality of 2015 is, like the photograph, the projection of the 'most likely future', then ideally, a change in Marty's intentions while in 2015 should bring about a change in reality. So, for instance, if Marty and Jennifer broke up while they were in 2015, then the reality should morph around them to one where Marty and Jennifer broke up thirty years ago, and are probably married to different people.
This idea was reflected to a small extent in the original script for BTTF2, where, any pain felt by the past self who was in the future was 'transferred' to the future self as well. So, when Young Jennifer pricked her thumb, we see Old Jennifer suddenly reacting to a pain in her thumb! (Strangely enough, the memories don't get 'transferred'...)
I'm still going with the 24-hour theory. If Marty was to go, "Screw it! I'm staying here in 2015!" - I don't think the timeline would change right away. Also, if Marty was to suggest spending a week's vacation in the year 2015, it seems a bit too far-fetched to think the timeline would remain intact for that long.
You know, that's actually interesting. In BTTF3, the photograph of the tombstone kept changing based on Marty's intentions in 1885. For instance, when he decides to fight Bufford Tannen, the photograph 'ripples' into the Clint Eastwood tombstone.
Now if the reality of 2015 is, like the photograph, the projection of the 'most likely future', then ideally, a change in Marty's intentions while in 2015 should bring about a change in reality. So, for instance, if Marty and Jennifer broke up while they were in 2015, then the reality should morph around them to one where Marty and Jennifer broke up thirty years ago, and are probably married to different people.
This idea was reflected to a small extent in the original script for BTTF2, where, any pain felt by the past self who was in the future was 'transferred' to the future self as well. So, when Young Jennifer pricked her thumb, we see Old Jennifer suddenly reacting to a pain in her thumb! (Strangely enough, the memories don't get 'transferred'...)
In the original script 2015 Jennifer does leave Marty but I can't recall if 1985 Jennifer sees it. Would be interesting if she did and figures she may as well break up with Marty seeing what he becomes. The pain transferrance was silly, it also happened in 1967, 67 doc had a window fall on his hand and 1985 Doc grabbed his.
Clarification though; the tombstomb doesn't immediately change from 'Emmet Brown' to 'Clint eastwood', Emmets name disappears after the festival (as we find out, this is when he originally gets shot but Marty averts this hence why the name is removed). Marty is carrying his gun and likely prepared to go through with the gun fight until he sees his alias on the tombstomb (somewhat of a paradox as this is likely when he changes it).
I'm still going with the 24-hour theory. If Marty was to go, "Screw it! I'm staying here in 2015!" - I don't think the timeline would change right away. Also, if Marty was to suggest spending a week's vacation in the year 2015, it seems a bit too far-fetched to think the timeline would remain intact for that long.
I think there simply has to be a junction point preventing 1985 Marty from eventually becoming 2015 marty. It's not so much how long he stays as he can always return when he left but what happens when he does stay. Let's say marty decides to stay, the timeline would likely fast forward to see what happens; if it finds 1985 marty does in fact stay time displaced, 2015 marty would disappear but if it finds marty eventually decides to return to 1985, it would keep itself intact.
Comments
It just now occurs to me that the continuum really does show obvious evidence of trying to prevent paradoxes if at all possible (an idea posited in the BTTF DVD FAQ), to the point of affecting the speed of the ripple effect itself; ie. altering the laws of physics.
When Marty saved his dad from being hit by the car, the continuum's paradox-creating ripple effect took place very slowly. Only after a week in real time did the consequences start to catch up with Marty. However, when his parents kissed at the dance, the second ripple effect- the one that stopped the paradox- caught up with the first one in a matter of seconds.
On a completely unrelated side note, I always wondered how Biff managed to not change anything that would invalidate information in the Almanac. Of course, maybe he just stopped using it once he got rich.
NOV 12 1955 6:00am (not sure of the time of day or not) it should have said OCT 26 1985 (insert time of day in the morning when Doc arrived in 1985). before they left 2015!
Heck, I caught that in the theater in 1989!
They had no reason to check the display. Doc was rather intent on just getting back to 85, and probably wasn't thinking things through.
Had Biff been smart (and familiar with how the time machinery works) you could have speculated that maybe he was smart enough to make a second stop on his way back to 2015, to ensure that the display showed the correct departure date when Doc and Marty returned to the car. But now I don't think that Biff is that smart, so we have to assume that Doc had the departure date memorized.
That used to confuse me. Just think of it like this: Marty is from a timeline where Doc doesn't go back to 1885, so he remembers a ravine being called Clayton ravine, that's cause without Doc in 1885 Clara would not wait for someone to pick her up and end up being thrown from her horse and thrown into the ravine, where the ravine is named after her.
Doc arrives in 1885 before those events and picks up Clara so she doesn't get thrown in the ravine and Doc is none the wiser that he's saved her life. The ravine is named Shonash ravine.
Marty goes back to 1885 before Clara is meant to die and distracts Doc by talking to Doc about getting them both back, so Clara gives up waiting for Doc and goes off and thats when Doc and Marty save her, and the ravine ends up being called Eastwood Ravine.
Doc also has memories of the ravine being called Clayton Ravine, as his memories may not change, it's still unclear whether they will.
This is answered in this FAQ
It's been awhile since I've seen BTTF3 so I apologize if this is out of order, but the question still remains valid. At the end of BTTF3, Marty comes back to 1985, the DeLorean is destroyed, he runs home, sees everything is back to normal, gets the truck, picks up Jennifer...........and they JUST HAPPEN to be in the exact same location where they see Needles, Needles challenges him to a race, & Marty would've hit the Rolls Royce had he accepted???? Originally Marty's daily routine would have been VERY different.
Also, the Bobs missed the chance of a pretty big gag. I know that Needles' full name is Douglas J. Needles...but dude if you're going to have a character named Needles, at least make him a Peabody!
Look at what the characters plans were;
When marty returns from 1955 at the end of part I, it seems the plans are still to go to the lake saturday night. Although it's not confirmed, the crash could have happened when they were returning.
in part II, it was return to 1985 (Doc picks 9 pm, not sure why), for marty to go home for the night and pick Jennifer up in the morning. . So the accident likely still happens on the morning of October 27th (marty still hasn't learned not to lose his judgement when he's called a name at this point).
at the end of part III, doc sends marty back in the morning of October 27th for him to go back and get jennifer. He takes her to the wreck of the delorean but you could argue this is the same path to the lake.
It does seem to fit the BTTF model that the space time continum does have similar things happen in alternate timelines;
-Lorraines brother joey ends up in jail in 2 or 3 different timelines; the first timeline at the beginning of part I, the alternate timeline where biff is rich and a deleted scene where he's still in jail in 2015
-george and lorraine end up together albeit in different circumstances
-doc ends up with clara in 2 different ways; first he volunteers and meets her at the train station (in the timeline where doc is in 1885 without marty) and then he saves her.
-marty does end up with Jennifer in 2 different timelines (the first and second that we do see)
Quite true, but my question is more about timing. The Marty setting off for the lake & the Marty returning from 1885 before setting off would have had very different routines, but both paths lead the Martys to that intersection & the exact same time? This is especially true if, like you postulated, the crash could have happened when Marty & Jennifer were returning from the lake.
I guess it's a similar concept to; no matter how the cookie crumbled, Lorraine and George end up kissing first at the enchantment under the sea dance, Joey ends up in jail, Doc ends up with Clara, and yes Marty ends up at the same intersection as Needles next to hilldale.
Now worthy of note, I actually believe that when the accident did occur, Jennifer was not in the truck; the rolls royce came from the right so odds are it would have affected the passenger side first but it doesn't seem that Jennifer had any serious injuries in the future.
Great points. I never thought about the royce approaching from the right! And yeah, future Lorraine refers to the accident as Marty's accident (or your father, something along those lines) when talking to Marty & Jennifer's daughter. She doesn't say "when your parents were in the accident."
1. In the final timeline at the end of BTTF3 (the 'Eastwood' timeline), when 2015 comes around, will younger Marty, Doc and Jennifer from BTTF2 still show up? And if they do, how different will events be from what we saw in the actual movie, considering that in this timeline, the McFly family is implied to have a much better future? In particular, will Marty Jr even get INTO trouble with Griff in this timeline in the first place?
2. So, in the Hell Valley timeline, Twin Pines Marty from BTTF1 still appears in 1955, and '55 Doc sends him back to 1955. However, unknown to BTTF1 Marty, Biff has the Almanac given to him by Old Biff and uses it to get rich and create...well...'Hell Valley'. So, would the Marty who was been sent forward through time by Doc, arrive in Hell Valley 1985? Could there possibly be THREE Marty's roaming about in Hell Valley 1985-Hell Valley Marty, Twin Pines Marty from BTTF1, and 'our' Marty who has returned from 2015?
3. In the final 'Eastwood' timeline, what happens between the hours of 9:00 PM on October 26th and 2:42 AM on October 27th, 1985. Do Marty, Doc and Jennifer still return from 2015, only to find that everything is normal? Do they then deduce that they need to go back to 1955 by other means (questioning Eastwood Biff for instance, who would remember 'Calvin Klien' stealing back the Almanac from him). Or is there simply no trace of Marty and Doc during that period? In which case, do Jennifer and Einstien simply FADE into existence in the porch and lab respectively?
4. What DO 2015 Marty and Jennifer, seen in BTTF2, remember? Do they remember Doc coming back and taking them to the future? What do they remember of THEIR trip to 2015? 2015 Marty obviously doesn't remember 1985-A, or travelling back to 1885 because those events haven't 'happened' yet? So what does he remember of his return to 1985?
Now I have my own views on these...but I would be interested to hear other views on these subjects...
1. Its true that the Old Biff of LP 2015 will still appear in Eastwood 1955 and give his younger self the Almanac. But that doesn't mean that in Eastwood 2015, Old Biff still has to steal the Delorean. From the films and the Game, one gets the impression that the arrival of time travelers from the future in the past remains intact even if the future they've arrived from is erased (which explains how Marty from TP 1985 is still around in 1955 in BTTF2, even though TP 1985 has been replaced with 1985-A).
Personally, I believe that when 2015 comes around in the new timeline, Marty, Doc and Jennifer's 1985 selves WON'T appear. Marty Jr. won't get into trouble with Griff, Griff may get into the robbery himself and get arrested, and the 2015 selves of 'our' Marty and Jennifer will likely be having a 'quiet' celebration of living this day 'again' and thanking their lucky stars that things are much better.
LP 2015, according to me, is akin to 1985-A, or even TP 1985 for that matter. Marty (and in this case, Doc and Jennifer) will remember it because he travelled to that timeline, but for all intents and purposes, it was completely erased.
2. Again, I agree with you completely. I don't believe TP Marty will show up in Hell Valley 1985. However, the only flaw in logic hear is that time travel into the future takes one to the 'most likely future', and in the Hell Valley timeline, the most likely future when the lightining bolt strikes the Delorean at 10:04 pm on November 12th 1955, at a time when Biff is in the possession of the Almanac, is Hell Valley 1985. Then again, logic doesn't really count for much in this franchise I'm afraid...
3. I personally feel that there was no sign of Marty, Doc, Jennifer OR Einstien during those late night/early morning hours in the Eastwood timeline; at 2:42 PM, Jennifer and Einstien simply 'fade back' into existence. I've inferred this based on Doc's statement that the timeline would 'transform around' them...if he meant that they would literally be able to perceive Hell Valley transforming into normal Hill Valley. If that is the case, then from the POV of anyone else in Eastwood 1985, Jennifer and Einy should literally be fading INTO existence. If the timeline did transform around them, then Jennifer should IMO remember Clayton Ravine (though of course, I believe that once the timeline transformed, she would remember Eastwood Ravine as well).
The only problem here is that the situation is supposedly similar to that at the end of BTTF2/start of BTTF3, and yet the resolution is different. Doc travels back to 1885, and Lone Pine 1955 thus 'ripples' into Shonash 1955. And yet, though 1955 has already been altered owing to a time jump made earlier back, the arrivals of time travelers from the future...such as TP Marty, LP Old Biff, and TP/LP Marty and LP Doc is 'preserved'. These time travelers arrive from the future in Shonash 1955, unaware that this isn't the 1955 they 'originally' visited on this trip. Likewise, in this situation, Marty and Doc have altered events in 1955 (and later, in 1885), such that Hell Valley 1985 'ripples' into Eastwood 1985...but why shouldn't the arrival of time travelers from the future, namely Marty, Doc and Jennifer from 2015, remain intact. They should logically arrive in 1985, not knowing that this is not the version of 1985 they were 'originally' supposed to arrive back in...Maybe their not arriving is the universe's way of avoiding a paradox!
4. This one I admit I'm completely stumped at. First of all, the question of how the future selves can even EXIST is one which the two Bobs have only halfway explained satisfactorily. As far as 2015 Marty's memory...well, I initially believe that he simply doesn't even remember traveling to 2015...from his POV, Doc never came back to pick him and Jennifer up at the end of BTTF1 and he had the accident the next day. But seeing as Old Biff remembers seeing the Delorean, the 2015 we see is clearly a world in which Marty, Doc and Jennifer DID travel to 2015 from 1985...but obviously Marty and Jen DID return to 1985 based on their presence in 2015.
I suppose the explanation that they are simultaneously gaining memories of what their 1985 selves are doing does kinda work...but still, 2015 Marty doesn't really seem much aware of his younger self's presence in Hilldale.
Nevertheless, regardless of what they remember, it is clear that in the history of the LP timeline, at some point on October 26th, Marty and Jennifer HAD to have returned, and Marty did get into the accident with Needles. I'm curious to know under what circumstances they returned to 1985, and how exactly did Marty come to be driving the truck in this timeline.
I guess, the best answer to these issues is that while BTTF operates on a single alterable timeline model...it is clear that there is some concept of 'meta-time' at play here, which allows time travelers to travel into and from erased/alternate timelines, and retain their memories of those timelines.
It would seem that BTTF uses a combination of (or perhaps something in between) both a multiple-dimension universe (where multiple timelines coexist in different dimensions) and a single-dimension universe (where one and only one timeline exists).
On a storytelling level, Bob Gale has said that the effects/consequences of time travel change depending on what is required of the story.
On a pseudo-scientific level, I would say that it seems as though the timeline is analogous to such as a VHS tape, where a time traveller can go back and "record over" past events, but the previous "data" is technically still there, just overwritten. Just as when data on a hard drive is deleted or overwritten, it's not actually gone.
This is evident by the fact that Twin Pines Marty is seen in 1955 in BTTF2 instead of Lone Pine Marty. I would hazard a bet that when Twin Pines Marty goes back to 1985 in BTTF2, he appears in the appropriate Lone Pine timeline just as he should, even though the Lone Pine timeline was overwritten by the Hell Valley timeline.
In another way of thinking, if you considered only the events of the currently visible timeline as a whole at that point, it would then appear that in BTTF2 when Twin Pines Marty went back to the future, he jumped forward into oblivion. However, it only appears that way, since you can't visibly see goings on of the previously existing timelines that are buried beneath.
If this were to hold true, I would then think that a paradox occurs when actions taken during time travel cause aspects of two or more timelines to fight to overwrite each other simultaneously.
Yeah, I have a similar theory as to how BTTF time travel works and I admit you've put it much more eloquently than I would have
That said, the way I see it, there is some dimension of 'meta-time' in which all aspects of alternate/erased timelines are preserved. Time travelers who arrive from erased timelines arrive from this dimension, and those who travel TO erased or alternate timelines are shifted into this dimension. There is however only one TRUE timeline, and whatever events from the previous timeline which CAN be incorporated into this timeline are incorporated.
So, considering the Eastwood timeline...well, the events of 1955, which occurred in previous timelines, CAN logically occur in the Eastwood timeline, so they DO occur. The events of Hell Valley 1985 however CANNOT be fit into the Eastwood timeline, and so they DON'T occur and the time travelers instead disappear from the normal timeline, and are shifted into this 'meta-time' Limbo for that duration.
Now, this still doesn't explain the conundrum of the future selves, but I suppose no one can really explain THAT satisfactorily...
EDIT: Then again, as I read previous posts, it has also been said that the reason why future Marty exists in 2015 is because the ripple effect hadn't caught up yet. This is to say that had Marty stayed in 2015 for a significant period of time, it would have changed to a future where he never returned to the past. I tend to believe this more.
I used to believe that too...and yet, we're seeing a reality in which Marty and Jennifer DID leave for 2015 from 1985. Old Biff remembers seeing the flying Delorean. This means, logically, that 2015 Marty was in the car and traveled to the future. But this Marty did return to 1985, obviously, but he certainly did not go through the remaining adventures of 'our' Marty in BTTF2 and 3, since he had not learnt how to deal with the chicken problem and instead raced Needles and injured himself.
As far as LP 2015 goes, according to the linear chronological timeline, Marty disappears in a flying Delorean on October 26th 1985 at around 10:40 AM in the morning. He returns at some point later in the day. Presumably he and Jennifer go to the lake and spend the night there. Marty may have dropped Jennifer off at her house the next morning, October 27th 1985, and while driving away, at around 11: 30ish, encounters Needles, gets into the drag race with him, and breaks his hand. He then spends the next thirty years 'feeling sorry for himself', marrying Jennifer, raising two less than perfect kids, and ending up working in a dead-end job with Needles. Then, on October 21st 2015, he is sitting in his house getting fired while teenage Jennifer and his own younger self are roaming about, seemingly unknown to him.
But now, let us attempt to reconstruct the PERSONAL timeline of that Marty. From this Marty's POV, he's in the Delorean with Doc and Jennifer on October 26th morning, the Delorean accelerates to 88 miles per hour in mid-air and he travels to 2015. THEN what?
Okay, let us assume that just as we see in the movie, Doc explains his scheme to save Marty Jr. from being arrested. Marty takes his son's place, faces off against Griff, the hoverboard chase happens and Griff gets arrested instead. Fine, this part is clear.
But now we get to the point where, in the actual movie, Marty gets the idea to buy the Almanac. Does THIS Marty ALSO see the Almanac? Logically, assuming the events in 2015 HAVE played out exactly as we saw in the film, the Clocktower guy SHOULD inadvertently give Marty the inspiration to win at gambling with the Almanac. Nothing in this Marty's personal timeline would logically be different from that of 'our' Marty. Then, in that case, Doc would return to fetch Marty and Old Biff should see the flying Delorean and remember it disappearing thirty years ago! Just like in the movie, he would learn about the time machine and the Almanac, and get the idea to steal them. And just like in the movie, Jennifer would be found by the cops and taken to Hilldale...NOTHING could possibly be different from the timeline we see in the movie.
You see where this is going...don't you? If events progress like they do in the movie, then Old Biff would successfully steal the Delorean...which means that it would be impossible for this Marty to return to LP 1985, and get into the accident with Needles on October 27th (which, according to the linear timeline, we've established he DID get into). In fact, this Marty would go through the remaining events of BTTF2 and 3, and eventually NOT race Needles...which means he is indistinguishable from 'our' Marty. And that means, we still don't know where the Marty who returned to LP 1985 and raced Needles came from!
In order for 2015 Marty to exist, as we see him, it is necessary for the events in 2015 (which took place in HIS personal past) to in some way and at some point diverge from the events experianced by 'our' Marty in 2015. Either this Marty never got the idea to use the Almanac, or Old Biff didn't steal the Delorean...SOMETHING had to be different such that it was possible for Doc to return Jennifer and Marty to LP 1985 such that Marty got into the accident with Needles the next day and grew up to become the 2015 Marty we see in BTTF2.
Yeah but when you changed the past the future changes instantly when you return. A solution to the issue could be that Marty and Doc were still there and they were time travelers so it would make sense for a instant change just because Biff returned.
Actually I don't believe that the future changes when the time traveler returns...logically it should change when the time traveler DEPARTS.
Think about it this way...the moment the time traveler disappears from the present and into the past, from the POV of any observer in the present, all the time travelers actions were already X number of years in the past, and therefore the present would ALREADY have become the consequences of the altered past.
I mean, look at the case of Doc going back to 1885. Doc gets sent back to 1885, and the moment he vanishes, from Marty's POV, he has already lived and died seventy years in the past...as evidenced by the fact that the Western Union man arrives just a couple of minutes later. Doc never returned to 1955...and yet the timeline transformed. So the time travelers return to the present is not necessarily in order for the timeline to change.
So I believe that the moment Old Biff went back, LP 2015 became 2015-A and transformed around Marty, Doc and Jennifer. Of course, its likely that Old Biff returned the very moment he departed, so yeah, in that case it is possible to perceive his return trip as being the cause of the changes. But fundamentally, it is the DEPARTURE that alters the timeline.
The whole icing thing was pretty much ignored in BTTF2 and 3 (an in-story rationale could be that Doc got rid of the icing problem when he first upgraded the Delorean in 2015).
Interestingly, in the original script, Doc DID notice that the Last Time Departed was different (September 20th 1967 in that version)...but he assumed that Einstien messed around with the time circuits or they were malfunctioning or something. As a result, in that script, Doc and Marty figured out the date Biff went back to easily enough...they just needed to discover the circumstances.
Yeah that was a weak part of the script. doc assumes Einstein was touching the keypad (which is illogical because at no point is it ever indicated the last time Departed can be manually changed).
Yeah, that's true. I was wondering about that myself when I first read the script.
That said, Doc not noticing the Last Time Departed is SOMEWHAT understandable. He is somewhat agitated as they are preparing to leave for 2015...after the whole incident with the two Jennifer's, and has just made up his mind to give up time travelling! So he's likely far too preoccupied to notice the reading.
That hasn't been happening yet though, that doesn't start until just before they leave biffhoric 1985 for 1955 and then again in 1955.
its complicated but the way i see it is marty goes forward to 2015, buys the almanac then biff takes it from the rubbish bin, then goes back in time, marty then finds out by going to hell valley, then him and Doc changes the biff timeline to the original timeline by travelling to 1955. Now back in 2015 nothing changes because biff fails in his mission to rewrite his history, so marty and doc return to 1985 and find nothing has changed, also not expecting anything to change, then marty lives his life, breaks his hand due to his chicken complex, gets depressed and doesn't remember when his past self will go to the future or even cares because hes depressed. The fact now is there is a marty in 1955 who travelled back there because the future was messed up, then changes the future back to how it should be, then goes to 1885 to follow doc, gets over his chicken complex, goes back to 1985 and replaces the marty that originally comes back from 2015, and doesn't race with needles, hence he doesn't break his hand, then he meets doc again and the future is changed for the better, but doc leaves for 6 months and the games begin
Actually, I still believe that. I think, if they had stayed in the future for more than 24 hours, then their older selves (and children) would disappear - and the timeline would be as if they were missing for thirty years. I actually got that idea from Mike Mahoney, and I think it makes sense.
As for Biff '15 remembering the DeLorean, that is the confusing part. The best explanation I can come up with is, if you had asked him about a flying DeLorean from thirty years ago prior to the event, he would think you were crazy. However, the moment he saw the DeLorean, I think it was a convergence of the two timelines.
I just don't like the idea that Marty's life would still end up in ruins, even after having gone to the future.
Of course, the whole thing could've been avoided - if Doc had just told Marty about what he saw. Then Marty would have thirty years to change things. But, I understand the out-of-universe reason of why they did it that way. The Bobs had ended the first film with no plans for a sequel.
I've recently come up with a longer slightly more complex explanation for the presence of the future selves.
This is the way I see it. When Marty, Doc and Jennifer 'first' go to 2015, they end up in a reality where they've been missing for thirty years. Realizing there's nothing they can do about this, they return to 1985, and then Marty breaks his hand in the accident with Needles, Marty Jr. gets into trouble etc.
So now that a 'precedent' has been established and the space-time continuum 'knows' that there is a high probability that Marty, Doc and Jennifer WILL return to 2015 and lead pretty much the same lives Doc had originally seen them lead, the 'final version' of future they arrive in is one where their future selves are present and appropriately aged, having returned to 1985.
This theory would provide an explanation not only for the future self's presence, but also their memories...the future selves would remember arriving in a future where they were missing.
The timeline must know the characters intentions. I think the timeline stays the way it was unless a junction point is changed or something happens threatening it. For instance the timeline of 2015 seems to be the same with 1985 Marty showing up there until he actually changes something. Something would have to happen to threaten to change it for it to start changing; for instance if the delorean gets damaged or let's say Marty finds out about his car accident then we'd see it changing.
You know, that's actually interesting. In BTTF3, the photograph of the tombstone kept changing based on Marty's intentions in 1885. For instance, when he decides to fight Bufford Tannen, the photograph 'ripples' into the Clint Eastwood tombstone.
Now if the reality of 2015 is, like the photograph, the projection of the 'most likely future', then ideally, a change in Marty's intentions while in 2015 should bring about a change in reality. So, for instance, if Marty and Jennifer broke up while they were in 2015, then the reality should morph around them to one where Marty and Jennifer broke up thirty years ago, and are probably married to different people.
This idea was reflected to a small extent in the original script for BTTF2, where, any pain felt by the past self who was in the future was 'transferred' to the future self as well. So, when Young Jennifer pricked her thumb, we see Old Jennifer suddenly reacting to a pain in her thumb! (Strangely enough, the memories don't get 'transferred'...)
In the original script 2015 Jennifer does leave Marty but I can't recall if 1985 Jennifer sees it. Would be interesting if she did and figures she may as well break up with Marty seeing what he becomes. The pain transferrance was silly, it also happened in 1967, 67 doc had a window fall on his hand and 1985 Doc grabbed his.
Clarification though; the tombstomb doesn't immediately change from 'Emmet Brown' to 'Clint eastwood', Emmets name disappears after the festival (as we find out, this is when he originally gets shot but Marty averts this hence why the name is removed). Marty is carrying his gun and likely prepared to go through with the gun fight until he sees his alias on the tombstomb (somewhat of a paradox as this is likely when he changes it).
I think there simply has to be a junction point preventing 1985 Marty from eventually becoming 2015 marty. It's not so much how long he stays as he can always return when he left but what happens when he does stay. Let's say marty decides to stay, the timeline would likely fast forward to see what happens; if it finds 1985 marty does in fact stay time displaced, 2015 marty would disappear but if it finds marty eventually decides to return to 1985, it would keep itself intact.
well he does; the timeline suggests he goes through with the duel so he amends things.