Traditional animation vs. 3D animation...

edited July 2011 in Kings Quest Game
I am not that big of King's quest, but I have seen bits of pieces of the games. The only game of King's quest that I remember playing was the 7th one, and that one was the Princeless Bride. I'm not that big into the animation of that one(Since I dislike it when people mimic the Disney style) but my sister likes it and it reminds her of Don Bluth's style. I know the game is likely to be done in 3D but will there be certain parts of the game that will use 2D? Or even better, used for the cutscenes of the game? It would be sweet if that would happen.
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Comments

  • edited February 2011
    Hmm, maybe.. It would give the game that little pazzaz! (or however you spell it. :p)
  • edited February 2011
    I'm sure the game will use the Telltale Tool, like all the other Telltale games. So no, I don't think the game will incorporate any 2D.
  • edited February 2011
    Woodsyblue wrote: »
    I'm sure the game will use the Telltale Tool, like all the other Telltale games. So no, I don't think the game will incorporate any 2D.

    SBCG4AP had some 2D effects and it was made with the Telltale Tool, too. And all of Puzzle Agent is in 2D.
  • edited February 2011
    I just sincerely hope Telltale do not go with the same caricaturish cartoon look as with Tales of Monkey Island et al. That would be so disheartening. King's Quest deserves a look all its own.
  • edited February 2011
    SBCG4AP had some 2D effects and it was made with the Telltale Tool, too. And all of Puzzle Agent is in 2D.

    This is true. I guess I just don't imagine that's the direction they'll take KQ, but I guess only time will tell.
  • edited February 2011
    The graphics should look like this:

    http://kyucon.com/qblock/#/16396
  • edited February 2011
    It would be nice, as long as it doesn't look like Disney or bluth.
  • edited February 2011
    King's Quest was always a bit cartoony to me (especially V with all the talking animals), so the move to the full animation style in VII seemed a logical step. And saying in can't look too much like disney or bluth is almost like saying it shouldn't be an animated style at all.

    A realistic look would make for a jarring change of tone in the series. You can't get away with some of the things in KQ in an Elder Scrolls like hyper real game. Just TRY to imagine cedric flying in Oblivion (it is not recommended to do this more than three times in one day as it can cause insanity).

    It would be interesting though for Telltale to try a new artistic style with this one, but I would much rather have it be somewhat cartoony and have them focus more on making the gameplay more like a Sierra game and less like Lucas Arts. (i.e. the heavy exploration and open world feel Sierra game tended to have)
  • edited February 2011
    joek86 wrote: »
    Just TRY to imagine cedric flying in Oblivion (it is not recommended to do this more than three times in one day as it can cause insanity).
    Somebody should make a mod like this. And when you enter a cave Cedric will say Hoo- I will wait for you here graham. A rabbit almost killed me once in one of these caves.
  • edited February 2011
    der_ketzer wrote: »
    Somebody should make a mod like this. And when you enter a cave Cedric will say Hoo- I will wait for you here graham. A rabbit almost killed me once in one of these caves.

    No just a rabbit, a POISONOUS rabbit!
  • edited February 2011
    No just a rabbit, a POISONOUS rabbit!

    You mean like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg
  • edited February 2011

    exactely.
  • edited February 2011
    The graphics should look like this:

    http://kyucon.com/qblock/#/16396

    that would be cool
  • edited February 2011
    They should make it all in the style of the Peasant's Quest sequence in SBCG4AP
  • edited March 2011
    Am I the only person who would love to see the game done in traditional artwork with a point and click interface rather than 3D graphics? Puzzle Agent has shown that the Telltale Engine can be adapted to hand drawn animated games

    When I say traditional artwork I'm not directly referring to King's Quest VII... It wouldn't necessarily have to be cartoony, it could look visually realistic but hand drawn rather than CG'ish.

    Opinions? They'll have to be just that, because Telltale will likely opt for CGI rather than animation rather than hire different animators.
  • edited March 2011
    G.byrne wrote: »
    Am I the only person who would love to see the game done in traditional artwork with a point and click interface rather than 3D graphics?

    Yes, you are. In my entire life, I have never seen an adventure game fan preferring 2d artwork to 3d. Ever. What a weird individual you are.
  • edited March 2011
    My parents always told me I was weird. I used to ask them why they would say such things...

    They never explained... Now I understand why.
  • edited March 2011
    G.byrne wrote: »
    Puzzle Agent has shown that the Telltale Engine can be adapted to hand drawn animated games
    No it didn't. That's a 3D game in a 3D engine right there, made to look very similar to a 2-dimensional cartoon style. It's no more 2D than Strong Bad's Cool Game.
  • edited March 2011
    It's no more 2D than Strong Bad's Cool Game.

    Well... first of, the main player character isn't modeled and rendered in 3D... And there is no cruising, and it does not make use of 3D camera angles. True, there are some 3D animations in the background sometimes but it's done to make fluent animations (which is funny since Grickle was never known for its fluent animations). Overall it's a 2D game.
  • edited March 2011
    But it's still done in 3D. Everything but the characters and user interface are in 3D. Not to say that the Telltale Tool is incapable of doing Puzzle Agent using only illustrations (on a 3D axis). The difference is that whereas Puzzle Agent is generally fixed camera, I can't imagine King's Quest, with the cinematic notion that Telltale has taken to, staying fixed all the time. That would complicate things for the 2D backgrounds.
  • edited March 2011
    Giant Tope wrote: »
    But it's still done in 3D. Everything but the characters and user interface are in 3D. Not to say that the Telltale Tool is incapable of doing Puzzle Agent using only illustrations (on a 3D axis). The difference is that whereas Puzzle Agent is generally fixed camera, I can't imagine King's Quest, with the cinematic notion that Telltale has taken to, staying fixed all the time. That would complicate things for the 2D backgrounds.

    If I was mistaken about the game being 3D I apologize, but my intention was to point out that the game appears to be more hand drawn than 3D CGI. There aren't lots of 3D camera angles, there isn't a lot of wide open environments with CG animations... The game looks like it was drawn by hand where the other games look like they were sculpted on a computer.
  • edited March 2011
    I'd be thrilled if it looked like The Whispered World.
  • edited March 2011
    G.byrne wrote: »
    If I was mistaken about the game being 3D I apologize, but my intention was to point out that the game appears to be more hand drawn than 3D CGI.

    I got that your real question was more about the look, rather than the technology behind it. So, no, you're not the only one -- I would like KQ to have more of a hand-drawn look. But it's not a huge issue for me, not nearly as important as getting the gameplay right.
  • edited March 2011
    I don't really care as long as it looks nice. I'd much rather see good 2D than bad 3D.
  • edited March 2011
    I have downloaded and played both Monkey Island and BTTF games from TT, both I ended up stopping half way through the first episode because the 3D engine is simply not suitable for adventure games. Adventure games are best designed with a 2D background and preferably a 2D character animation.

    I just pretended Monkey Island Tales weren't part of the real franchise and left it alone, just like I did with Monkey Island 4 for mostly the same reason. Then you came out with BTTF, I was excited to hear the news, but that 3D engine kept nagging at the back of my head, I played BTTF and I was right, it's frustrating as hell.

    Now TT, you are stepping into fierce territory, you can't just pick up Kings Quest and make it the way you think it's best to. You will be up against the most hardcore of adventure game fans of all time. Kings Quest is meant to be in 2D, it's best in 2D and not only that but you should consider a hard-option by where players have to type in everything, these two should save your arse, if you use your silly 3D engine to make this game, I will have lost any hope for TT. It IS important, it sets the mood, the scene, the users connection with the game. Your puzzles are OK, your stories are fairly good but your engine doesn't work.

    I'm not the biggest Kings Quest fan out there, but I am one of the biggest Space Quest and Leisure Suit Larry fans out there and I fear if you take Kings Quest down the path of BTTF or MI Tales, then I'll be pissed if you ever take on the likes of LSL and Space Quest. Please do it right.
  • edited March 2011
    Lol. No way they're ever going to work in 2D, dude. Ever.
  • edited March 2011
    Lol. No way they're ever going to work in 2D, dude. Ever.

    If we don't speak out, then there's no hope for change. I don't think they are even aware how bad their engine is compared to a simple 2D adventure game.
  • edited March 2011
    Pretty much all video game genres have had to move into 3D to survive, some were more successful at this than others. It was called the '90s. I see no reason why an adventure games aren't suitable for 3D.

    Grim Fandango is one of the greatest adventure games of all time and it was 3D with pre-rendered backgrounds. I'd like to hear some of your reasons why you believe 'Adventure games are best designed with a flat 2D background.' I can't think of single thing a 2D adventure game can do that a 3D one can't.
  • edited March 2011
    Woodsyblue wrote: »
    Pretty much all video game genres have had to move into 3D to survive, some were more successful at this than others. It was called the '90s. I see no reason why an adventure games aren't suitable for 3D.

    Grim Fandango is one of the greatest adventure games of all time and it was 3D with pre-rendered backgrounds. I'd like to hear some of your reasons why you believe 'Adventure games are best designed with a flat 2D background.' I can't think of single thing a 2D adventure game can do that a 3D one can't.

    Grim Fandango, as you said, has pre-rendered 2D Backgrounds, it never got frustrating. Same goes for The Longest Journey. It's ok if its pre-rendered.

    Maybe others here can help me, but off the top of my head:

    1. A LOT of detail can be put into the scenes.
    2. Detail adds to the gameplay value, there's a sense of adventure and exploration.
    3. It looks better.
    4. It's easier to navigate when you can see where everything is at once and know where all your exits are, I found in TT games, it wasn't always clear where the other rooms are or where exactly you are standing in a particular room (the Doc's house in BTTF comes to mind).
    5. Moving the character around in 3D space can get very frustrating, I can't imagine how frustrating it would be for those who are not experienced with moving in 3D, it would totally alienate them.
  • edited March 2011
    Let's compare some scenes:

    Flat World:
    600full-the-longest-journey-screenshot.jpg

    3D World:
    4491019549_bdd516c3f0.jpg

    Flat World:
    1285533265480.jpeg

    3D World:
    wanted-a-wild-western-adventure-20040921022643077_640w.jpg
    Can you see where all the exits are in this screen?
  • edited March 2011
    Modern realtime 3D can be just as detailed, or even more so, than old pre-rendered graphics. It's just the qustion of the style and what the engine used can do. The comparision shots you've chosen aren't really fair, as the art style in them is very different. The pre-rendered ones try to approach realism, in where the realtime ones are more cartoony.
  • edited March 2011
    You need to convince me with some evidence tomimt. I know adventure games well, I like to make adventure games and as an artist focus on background and character art as well as the overall design. If there are adventure games out there that play in real-time 3D world with more detail than a 2D game, I'd REALLY like to see it, not because I think it would be better (because you still have to contend with the navigation problems).
  • edited March 2011
    The Longest Journey is every bit as 3D as Escape from Monkey Island. What were you thinking?
  • edited March 2011
    Radogol wrote: »
    The Longest Journey is every bit as 3D as Escape from Monkey Island. What were you thinking?

    Yeah, that was a really bad comparison. I was just thinking the same thing. They both use 3D characters on 2D backgrounds.

    It seems to me what you dislike more than 3D vs. 2D is a cartoon aesthetic vs. a realistic one. The only difference in "detail" in the examples you've shown has to do with the art direction, not the engine.

    Granted, I'd love to see a KQ game with hand-painted 2D backgrounds in 1080p. That would be a dream come true. But no one will ever do it, unfortunately. It just doesn't fit the current model for what a video game is supposed to be.
  • edited March 2011
    The Longest Journey's background are pre-rendered, not real-time. There is a huge difference in the way the viewing angle is presented, the navigation controls of the main character and you can touch up still images in photoshop.

    I don't care if it's cartooned (although I prefer it not to be), but you've missed the point if you think that's why I dislike 3D.
  • edited March 2011
    icedan wrote: »
    The Longest Journey's background are pre-rendered, not real-time.

    So are Escape's.
    icedan wrote: »
    There is a huge difference in the way the viewing angle is presented, the navigation controls of the main character.

    All right, but that's a design choice, not something that results from using real-time graphics over pre-baked ones.
  • edited March 2011
    Radogol wrote: »
    So are Escape's.

    Are you serious? *mind blown*.
  • edited March 2011
    This brings back memories as I had the discussion if 3D is suitable for adventure games back in the 90s. And I actually preferred 3D compared to FMV (which was hot back then), because for example in GK3 it gave much greater feeling of exploring and direct control than FMV of GK2.

    It's true that 3D of 90's hasn't aged particularly well, although it looked nice back then. However many more recent adventures which use 3D graphics don't look that badly aged, I still think that, for example, Syberia II (2004) has pretty graphics.

    Besides these days most adventure games are either 3D or use 3D graphics which are disguised to look like 2D and real 2D is rarity. So I don't see why KQ should use real 2D.

    Also I would find it suitable that new game would use similar style as first four KQ games, which were advertised as 3D games, although this time with real 3D graphics.
  • edited March 2011
    Being popular doesn't make it right. I've dealt with both 3D and 2D engines for different genres, in the beginning I was fighting for 3D because back in the 90's it seemed like the next thing. But I have come to the strong conclusion that in some cases, 2D is just better. 3D is good if you want to move around the world quickly. It's not good if you are going from one scene to another that contains many puzzles using many objects lying around.


    btw, 3D graphics these days are still as terrible as they have been for a long time. I have a strong feeling most graphic designers do not want to use 3D to make their games because they know it downgrades the overall quality, in other words, it has no feeling, no character, art requires finer touches than modeled shapes and rendered textures.
  • edited March 2011
    icedan wrote: »
    Being popular doesn't make it right. I've dealt with both 3D and 2D engines for different genres, in the beginning I was fighting for 3D because back in the 90's it seemed like the next thing. But I have come to the strong conclusion that in some cases, 2D is just better. 3D is good if you want to move around the world quickly. It's not good if you are going from one scene to another that contains many puzzles using many objects lying around.


    btw, 3D graphics these days are still as terrible as they have been for a long time. I have a strong feeling most graphic designers do not want to use 3D to make their games because they know it downgrades the overall quality, in other words, it has no feeling, no character, art requires finer touches than modeled shapes and rendered textures.

    Modern 3D looks fine to me and IMO works well in the adventure games. I think that if you're trying to create illusion of three dimensional space (which most adventures try to do, no matter if those games are 2D or 3D games) you might as well use real 3D environment. Only problems which come to my mind are that sometimes when game uses 3D characters and 2D backgrounds those characters don't quite fit, but luckily there are plenty of games which have solved that problem. And sometimes games with full 3D graphics are rather heavy and need lot of resources.
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