I hear immersion factor all the time, but I never had a problem with it. I never lost immersion factor when I had to put a book down because I didn't read it in one sitting.
Saving the game was always just something you did. I suppose it was because that's how technology worked in the early days. Sure, you can do it differently now - but just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. Constant auto-saving and retry buttons water down the gaming experience - it's something that appeals to the lowest common denominator in my eyes. You have to have some standards somewhere. It's all up to the designers, really.
Ok, if menus take you out of 'immersion"... That WTH are menus doing in 'death messages' (a death message is a type of 'menu')? The "menus" arguement can be used to strip out almost everything that made the old Sierra games interesting, including 'deaths'...
BTW, the only game I think of that had a 'no menu' death sequences was Shadows of Destiny, in that a death would bring you before the Homunculus who would describe how you died, the mistake you made, and the give you a another chance to change things. It was all fairly organic (and fairly non-linear) as choices could lead to the six endings (and 2 more in the "new game +")...
As I mentioned before, the new adventures that have removed death (or any alternative paths), and put 'adventures' on linear rails... Have pretty much removed any need to have any save games (other than as a 'bookmark')... This has made many of them less compelling in my opinion.
I always felt like the ability to save anywhere was just another tool in my adventure game box, like the hand or talk icons. It was an integral part of the experience for me.
If you think about it, didn't Roberta, and other designers, that 'simplified' game menus, down to a single icon (KQ7) or menuless games, in order to 'improve immersion' ironically strip much of the 'immersion' that previous games had? With simplified controls/menus, removed all the interesting extra information given through 'eye', 'hand' (in most sierra games), 'smell', 'taste' (space quest!) could offer a player...
If you go back further, the advanced parser in the middle to late AGI and early SCI games offered even more immersion in games than the mouse/icon system did, as it offered for even more 'actions' (all sorts of verbs) for the player, only limited by the player's, and designer's own imagination.
Think for example, in SQ2, one of the puzzles involved "hold breath". But when Infamous Adventures redesigned the puzzle in their remake, they couldn't figure out how to implement that same 'action' with the more limited icon system!
Likewise many of the other remakes and fan remakes stripped out some of the extra messages that could be achieved by trying to use more imaginative verb noun combinations! Like for example trying to type 'dig' on various screens, or 'jump', 'kill', etc.
Think for example, in SQ2, one of the puzzles involved "hold breath". But when Infamous Adventures redesigned the puzzle in their remake, they couldn't figure out how to implement that same 'action' with the more limited icon system!
I'd like to chime in here...it's not that we "couldn't figure out" how to make this puzzle work in point and click, it's that we all agreed it was a stupid puzzle in the first place--one of those needlessly obscure things designed to sell hintbooks--and decided to take it out. We talked about making the player use the mouth icon before diving, but it just seemed pointless, as no real person in their right mind would dive under water without holding their breath. It was a stupid, stupid puzzle.
I agree with everything else you've said, by the way.
Also, as a music enthusiast, you should be well aware that the two most important parts of any experience are the first impression and the last impression. To give [KQ5's] last significant puzzle a moon logic solution as well as to make it dead-endable is a bad design choice.
Further, the cheese is in a dark hole inside a dark room, and as I recall there are unimportant mice that randomly run out of rooms as you enter them when you navigate the catacombs in KQ6. It makes some sense to overlook a dark hole in a dark room even with a random mouse when you didn't even intend to get caught in the first place. (Also, in KQ6, you can get caught in the castle once and nothing of importance is in your cell.)
The bridle is inside a big ruined boat on a bright, sunny island you try to get to on purpose, rather than in a dungeon cell which you did not. Also, it makes sense to not be able to look into the boat if it's big enough that you couldn't see into it if you were standing in a place where the hull is blocking your view.
But whether or not you think the cheese is in an obvious location, anyone should know that they need some method of control for the unicorn, while there is no reason whatsoever to indicate you need cheese to power a magic-transference machine. So, if you are at the machine without the cheese, you're screwed. If you're at the unicorn without the bridle, at least you have some idea what the heck you're looking for.
Did I mention that the last impression given of KQ5 is a dead-endable puzzle with an entirely illogical solution, and that the last impression is one of the two most important parts of an experience? Yes. I did. (the spells don't count as they're only 4-option multiple choice, which requires no significant cognitive ability.)
In KQ4: object is found in completely random location with absolutely no in-game clues to look in said location. And on top of that, looking in that location only reveals the object if the player is standing in a very specific spot on the screen.
In KQ5: object is found in logical location with strong visual clues pointing you to look in said location. Clicking the Hand icon on the rat hole can be done from anywhere on the screen, and the player character will walk over and reach in the hole.
No contest.
Also, the little island is NOT something you were "trying to get to," as you describe it. You get there by getting swallowed by the whale while swimming out to Genesta's island. It's just as random as getting caught by the blue beast while exploring Mordack's castle.
No one's arguing that the cheese powering the wand machine isn't ridiculous (it totally is.) Just that at least with that one, if you've got the cheese in your inventory, it's only a matter of trial and error (still bad design) before you will eventually solve it. The KQ4 bridle thing is just SO obscure, and on top of that is in such a specific area of the screen in such a specific area of the game that you can't get to once you've left it--it's just terrible.
But yeah, they're both pretty bad. For my money, having to wait in the library for Mordack is even worse than the cheese machine though.
No, seriously, can someone ask Roberta that the next time they get the chance of interviewing her! Inquiring minds wanna know! Maybe, someone could ask Ken, maybe he could find out?
My last impression of KQ5 was the spectacular magic battle. The cheese thing was just a stepping stone (or stumbling block, to some). I had a fantastic last impression on the game. I also did not have a problem finding the cheese, which is the main issue. I'm not arguing that throwing it in the machine is is retarded. But at least you have it in your inventory and acquiring it isn't a big issue. The bridle, on the other hand, is kind of the opposite problem. You know what you have to do with it once you get it but acquiring it or even knowing it's there on the island is an assumption the game shouldn't have made about the player. It's (slightly) better to have it and not know what it's for than to not have something you need that can only be found in an incredibly obscure placement with no logical sensibility as to why it is there. But both are bad.
I'm quite surprised nobody has asked Roberta about the cheese, actually.
The magic battle was forgettable, imo. All you have to do is use common sense and if that doesn't work out for you then just save, pick one, restore, repeat. It's a no-brainer really so I just thought of it as an action sequence more than a puzzle. Similarly, I don't think of the sword fight at the end of KQ6 really as a puzzle either.
I'm not saying those sequences are stupid. I'm saying I don't consider them as puzzles. ...more like interactive portions of the endgame cutscene.
While the bridle in KQ4 IS remarkably easy to miss and impossible to get back to, I wouldn't say it's the worst. That you have to GET a bridle, at least, is clear in the game--it is possible to use Cupid's arrow on the unicorn prior to getting eaten by the whale, so you can know you need something to ride the unicorn prior to ending up on the island.
There should have been an easier clue to actually find the bridle, though, yes.
The cheese, on the other hand--as pointed out, there is nothing pointing to it. If you missed it once, you're done (same as the bridle--Cassima only rescues you from the dungeon once, after all), you don't know you need it beforehand, and you get no clues at any point later that you do, either. At least the bridle makes sense and you know you need one.
My vote for worst puzzle still goes to honey and emeralds, however.
These arguments between the cheese and the bridle make no sense.
Yes, you knew you needed a bridle, but how does that help at all? Knowing you need a bridle does nothing to make it any more apparent that you need to search for it in such a specific place and in such a specific manner.
If I can type "Look at ground" and that works in every other bloody screen in the game, then why would I continue typing this phrase in multiple places on the same screen expecting a different result?
The thing that makes the bridle suck as a puzzle is not knowing you need it, or knowing when to use kit - it is finding it in the first place.... which shouldn't really be a puzzle to begin with.
As lambonious pointed out, at least you could see the mouse hole. It isn't hidden behind something else with no clue it exists. If your going to complain about the mouse hole, you might as well complain about every pixel hunt puzzle that ever existed in an adventure game.
Secondly - if I miss the cheese in the mouse hole, and I read the solution - I am going to blame myself for not being thorough enough. When I read that I had to be standing INSIDE a wrecked boat and type exactly what I had already tried.... well, I don't blame myself one bit for that. That is quite simply bad design.
Typing look on ANY other screen details the entire surroundings, whether Rosella can see them for her point of view or not. This is the only example of the parser selectively deciding that it will not reveal information about an object because it doesn't believe you can see it unless your standing on top of it.
Ultimately though, the bridle is ridiculously hard to find - but once you have it, you know what to do with it. The cheese has clues to find it, but once you have it you aren't clear on the point.... much like the damned yeti+ pie puzzle.
And if anyone is going to criticize puzzles that don't make sense, then holy hell, how are they a fan of KQ in the first place? Yeti-pie face? jewels in honey to catch an elf (that only works in ONE specific spot)? Not only saying Rumplestiltskin backwards, but actually having to transcribe the alphabet in reverse? Having to save a rat from a cat, only getting one chance to do it, and specifically accomplishing this by throwing a shoe?
Those are just a few of the strange ass requirements. There were quite a few other questionable "moon logic" puzzles as well.
To put it quite plainly, it is sad when a nerdy 12 year old (myself) was able to beat leisure Suit Larry with no problems, but King's Quest sent me on several hunts for a hint. Scoring as a loser from the 70's should not come more naturally to a kid then solving riddles in a fairy tale .
You know if the game had given the player the chance to find the bridle in the stable near Lolotte's castle, it would have made more logistical sense...
is nothing pointing to it.
Again, there is plenty of evidence to pointing to the cheese, once you get to the Dungeon... You are shown an animation of a rat/mouse going into a hole, even before the blue beast throws you into the room from his magic portal. You are given a minute or two look around the room, before Cassima shows up...
Most people will have the sense to use the eye and hand on various points in the screen... Looking for stuff to pick up or look at... Looking at mouse hole, which people should have the sense of trying to look at, brings up a large close up of the mouse hole with a chunk of cheese in it... That's pretty blatant!
The thing about rats in KQ6, they leave the screen, so there is no way to interact with them (other than look at them)! But in KQ5, the mouse disappears into a hole in the wall, that you can definitely look at.
Cheese and 'mice/rats' have a sense of logic to them! Cheese is often associated with mouse/rat traps, and mice and rats are often shown nibbling cheese in cartoon pictures.
Beyond that, the use of the cheese in the machine makes little sense...
Having to save a rat from a cat, only getting one chance to do it, and specifically accomplishing this by throwing a shoe?
You can throw a stick too (the stick or the shoe can be used against the dog as well, btw)... But there is some logic to this... In cartoons, whenever a cat or cats starts 'serenading' on the fence around someone's house, the first thing that the owner house does, is toss boots at the the cat!
Also I can't see why people have such a problem realizing they need to save the rat... The whole purpose of most of the puzzles is to do good deeds... and there are several similar puzzles, saving the bees from the bear, saving the ants from the dog... The rat and the cat is an extension to the 'vermin' puzzle line...
Plus to even activate the rat and the cat, you have to walk to a certain point in the screen at which point the game pauses, the narrator alerts you that a mangy cat is chasing a terrified rat (just before the rat and cat come onto the screen). At which point you are given the chance to save it.
It's all rather obvious... Anyone who ignores it, just isn't thinking...
Scoring as a loser from the 70's should not come more naturally to a kid then solving riddles in a fairy tale
Keep in mind that some puzzles, people complain about in the series, are actually rooted in obscure fairy tales or mythology... Unless you know the mythology, those can be stumpers as well...
LSL was more tied more into 'reality' and pop culture... So by nature its going to have less 'fantastical', more real-world logical puzzles.
Yeti-pie face?
Well, even it has a since of logic too it... Since 'pie to the face' is one of the oldest comedy tropes of the 20th century... considering at that point in the game you have no physical weapons (unless you count the tiny hammer), their isn't much you could actually try to use on the yeti...
The only way you can possibly screw that up, is eat the pie... But their is enough in the game to warn you that's not the right decision... For example the fact you don't receive any points if you eat the pie... While eating the half a lamb leg gives you points.
...jewels in honey to catch an elf (that only works in ONE specific spot)?
You can be standing anywhere in the scene and click the emeralds on either pair of eyes to trigger the puzzle, with Graham automatically walking over to where he needs to be.
That you have to GET a bridle, at least, is clear in the game [...] The cheese, on the other hand--as pointed out, there is nothing pointing to it. [...] you don't know you need it beforehand, and you get no clues at any point later that you do, either. At least the bridle makes sense and you know you need one.
These arguments between the cheese and the bridle make no sense.
Yes, you knew you needed a bridle, but how does that help at all? Knowing you need a bridle does nothing to make it any more apparent that you need to search for it in such a specific place and in such a specific manner.
And how do you know in KQ1 that pushing on a rock from the wrong side will get you killed? Welcome to the world of the parser interface. There are various parser games where you get a different response for "look"ing around depending on where you are standing, not to mention various things the game won't let you look at because it says "you're not close enough." KQ4 is no different. If you don't like not being able to see a bridle while it's on the other side of a wooden barrier, then don't blame the game. Blame the nature of parser.
Again, there is plenty of evidence to pointing to the cheese, once you get to the Dungeon... You are shown an animation of a rat/mouse going into a hole, even before the blue beast throws you into the room from his magic portal. You are given a minute or two look around the room, before Cassima shows up...
Mice leave the screen in the catacombs in KQ6. Mice leave the screen in the dungeon in KQ5. Alexander can get caught, thrown in a dungeon cell and is rescued after a time in KQ6. Graham can get caught, thrown in a dungeon cell and is rescued after a time in KQ5. There is nothing of interest or value in Alexander's cell in KQ6.
It is logical to see a correlation.
If you reach the island, the only thing of value there (besides the means to leave, which you are able to do at any time) is the bridle, and the whale only starts appearing after Lollotte tells you to obtain the unicorn. Not before. It follows that you need to use the whale to get at what you're looking for if the whale never appeared before you were ever looking for it. The same goes for the ogre/ogress after she tells you to obtain the hen. There is no evidence at the associated puzzle or anywhere leading up to it pointing to the fact that you need cheese, and you get captured before you ever are given any hint that you need it. You might think the cheese's presence is obvious, but if it is missed there is nothing to suggest what it is that you needed. If you don't have the bridle, then you can make the unicorn like you but you can't ride on it, and you knew you were looking for the bridle when you get to where it is located; not so with the cheese.
Further, getting out of the whale is a puzzle on its own, so you know that you're supposed to have reached that point. In KQ6 there is no need to ever be captured and thrown in the dungeon and to do so serves no purpose, so it follows that one might overlook it happening in KQ5.
Mice leave the screen in the catacombs in KQ6. Mice leave the screen in the dungeon in KQ5.
Big difference, the rats leave the side of the screens, or into doors in KQ6. In KQ5 the mouse enters a hole.
A astute and smart player would use the 'eye' and/or 'hand' on the the hole (and any other object on the screen). In KQ6 the average player would try looking at the 'passage ways' the rat went through. You are given several minutes to look around the screen for 2things to pick up... Anyone who has played a King's Quest game should know, always search high and low, inside, outside, underneath, behind...
"When in doubt, or in trouble, pick up anything that is not nailed down, and if it is, look for loose nails or boards. Check carefully into, under, above, below, and behind things. Read everything; you might learn something...and always remember: nothing is as it appears."
The big difference is in KQ5 (if you followed the major Adventure games mantra), you will be given a close up. "don't just assume' that because you got trapped in a seemingly useless room that there isn't something that you can't do to interact within it...
As stated in the KQ5 manual, and is the standard rule in most adventure games, especially the early ones;
1. "Look everywhere. Thouroughly explore your surroundings. Open doors and drawers. Look closely at objects you encounter or you may miss important clues.
2. Explore each area of the game carefully, and draw a map as you progress through the game. Make a note of each area you visit, and include information about objects found there and dangerous areas nearby. If you miss an area, you may miss an important clue!
3. Get objects you think will need...
4. Use the items you have picked up to solve problems in the game. Different approaches to the puzzle may bring about a different outcome.
5. Be careful, and remain alert at all times -- Disaster may strike in the most unlikely places!
6. Save your game often, especially if you are about to try something new or potentially dangerous. This way, if the worst should happen, you won't have to start all over again from the beginning. Save games at different points, so you will be able to return to a desired point in the game. In effect, this will enable you to travel back through time and do things differently if you wish.
7. Don't be discouraged. If you come to an obstacle that seems insurmountable, don't despair. Spend some time exploring in another area, and come back later. Every problem in the game has at least one solution, and some have more than one. Sometimes solving a problem one way will make it harder to solve the next, and sometimes it will make it easier. If you get stuck, you might try backtracking to an earlier point in the game, then choosing a different path...
Anyone who missed the rather obvious 'mouse hole' clearly didn't follow the repeated rule to 'explore all surroundings', 'look at everything', or the 'pick up everything' not nailed down rules...
Seriously a player that doesn't use the 'eye' and 'hand' icons, on everything in every screen, clearly doesn't know how to play a Sierra adventure game.
Alexander can get caught, thrown in a dungeon cell and is rescued after a time in KQ6. Graham can get caught, thrown in a dungeon cell and is rescued after a time in KQ5. There is nothing of interest or value in Alexander's cell in KQ6.
In KQ6 if you are captured in a cell, Jollo will rescue almost instantly (after the guards conversation). If you have the key, on the second lock in you can escape (after the guard's conversation). The third attempt will lead to automatic death scene, after the guards conversation.
In all three instances the game pauses during the 'guards' conversation. In which you can't do anything but 'skip' the conversation by pushing any buttons.
Also infact, there is something of value in the cells! The child ghost puzzle! You must give the hankerchief to the ghost, or the ghost will alert the guards to your presence! Woe betide you, if you never got the hankerchief from its mother.
The cell you thrown into in KQ6, is random actually. I've tested this many times.
The cell you end up will always be locked, by the guards...
However, if you don't help the ghost, it will alert the guards.
Edit: Also tested, and the ghost can randomly appear in all three cells! Or at least seems to primarily choose to haunt the north and middle cells the most.
In anycase, you don't just assume a place is 'useless' or 'has nothing'. The rules in these games, was to check everything you could, explore everything, try to pick up everything. The developers intended players to be thourough. Once a player had finished investigation that was the point they could decide if they had been found everything or not.
The boy ghost to me is a bit of Fridge Horror. It implies that Caliphim (or possibly one of his ancestors) locked a little boy in a dungeon, possibly along with his mother, to die. I don't think Alhazred did it, although I suppose it is possible.
All I have to say is, if you're going to defend one puzzle you must defend the other. They're both on equal playing fields.
And comparing cell capture rooms between games isn't really fair. For one thing KQ6 came after KQ5.
Yeah but....
KQ6 IS TEH BEST THING EVER IT HAZ NO FLAWZ OR ANYTHING LACKING IN IT IT IS AMAZING AND JANE JENSEN IS A ROCK GOD HER GAMES ARE TOTALLY DARK AND EPIC LIKE TWILIGHT, WHICH IS THE BEST BOOK EVA, OK MR. LIGHTHEARTED FANTASY LIKING PERSON? LIGHTHEARTED FANTASZY IS LIKE TOTALLY 1990, ITS FOR PEOPLE WITH MULLETS, YOU KNOW, IT'S OLD, IT DOESN'T WORK NOW WE LIVE IN 2012, ITS THE END OF THE WORLD, GET WITH THE TIMES, OLD MAN. GRITTY DARK STUFF LIKE CHRIS NOLAN MAKES IS ALL THAT MATTERS NOW.
KQ6 IS TEH BEST THING EVER IT HAZ NO FLAWZ OR ANYTHING LACKING IN IT IT IS AMAZING AND JANE JENSEN IS A ROCK GOD HER GAMES ARE TOTALLY DARK AND EPIC LIKE TWILIGHT, WHICH IS THE BEST BOOK EVA, OK MR. LIGHTHEARTED FANTASY LIKING PERSON? LIGHTHEARTED FANTASZY IS LIKE TOTALLY 1990, ITS FOR PEOPLE WITH MULLETS, YOU KNOW, IT'S OLD, IT DOESN'T WORK NOW WE LIVE IN 2012, ITS THE END OF THE WORLD, GET WITH THE TIMES, OLD MAN. GRITTY DARK STUFF LIKE CHRIS NOLAN MAKES IS ALL THAT MATTERS NOW.
OMG we should get Jane Jensen to write a movie, Chris Nolan to direct it, George Lucas to produce it, and Robert Pattinson can be the star. It would be AWESOME!!
Graham and Alexander have mullets? Coincidence or conspiracy?
That was in the vision of Roberta Williams, a hack who copied off a great man who we all know and love. She went back in time and stole his vision and made it with her small mind into a stupid fairy tale for all ages rather than into a dark, depressing, preachy, but OMGZ AWESOMEZ epic for teens who cut themselves.
In reality, Alexander loves Final Fantasy and Graham has cornrows.
OMG we should get Jane Jensen to write a movie, Chris Nolan to direct it, George Lucas to produce it, and Robert Pattinson can be the star. It would be AWESOME!!
Anything George Lucas has touched since 1997 or so is crappy, we all know this.
Ah, I was going to ask, what does Andrew Lang have to with mullets...
Then I remembered that one of the stories in his "collections" (an obvious term that means he must have 'plagiarized' other writers and story tellers himself) is;
"The Battle of the Mullets and the Dolphins"...!
Apparently its a story he took from "Pliny".
But based on that title it must be about disgruntled Miami Dolphins fans.
So, because mice run around in a cell in KQ6, a game that hadn't been released yet, and don't lead me to any items, I should have automatically assumed that the mouse in KQ5 also wasn't leading me to any items.
Anyone else see the flaw in this logic?
BTW, are there really even mice in the cell in KQ6? I only remember the spider in the foreground.
EDIT: Looks like several people already beat me to this comment. Lol--oh well. I do enjoy the debate, for what it's worth.
So, because mice run around in a cell in KQ6, a game that hadn't been released yet, and don't lead me to any items, I should have automatically assumed that the mouse in KQ5 also wasn't leading me to any items.
No mice run around in the cell in KQ6... A giant spider thing can appear in the foreground wall though!
The boy ghost to me is a bit of Fridge Horror. It implies that Caliphim (or possibly one of his ancestors) locked a little boy in a dungeon, possibly along with his mother, to die. I don't think Alhazred did it, although I suppose it is possible.
Haha...I never thought of that, but you're totally right. Caliphim was a cold-hearted bastard! Alexander only rescued him because he wanted to get into Cassima's knickers.
At least, that would be the "realistically psychological" take on it.
Maybe the castle was built on top of an indian graveyard? Ironically when I built a castle replica in Minecraft there turned out to be a zombie spawner directly below that exact cell.
Comments
Didn't break my immersion. Of course, I've developed the saving procedure to a 0.5 second event.
Saving the game was always just something you did. I suppose it was because that's how technology worked in the early days. Sure, you can do it differently now - but just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. Constant auto-saving and retry buttons water down the gaming experience - it's something that appeals to the lowest common denominator in my eyes. You have to have some standards somewhere. It's all up to the designers, really.
Bt
BTW, the only game I think of that had a 'no menu' death sequences was Shadows of Destiny, in that a death would bring you before the Homunculus who would describe how you died, the mistake you made, and the give you a another chance to change things. It was all fairly organic (and fairly non-linear) as choices could lead to the six endings (and 2 more in the "new game +")...
As I mentioned before, the new adventures that have removed death (or any alternative paths), and put 'adventures' on linear rails... Have pretty much removed any need to have any save games (other than as a 'bookmark')... This has made many of them less compelling in my opinion.
If you think about it, didn't Roberta, and other designers, that 'simplified' game menus, down to a single icon (KQ7) or menuless games, in order to 'improve immersion' ironically strip much of the 'immersion' that previous games had? With simplified controls/menus, removed all the interesting extra information given through 'eye', 'hand' (in most sierra games), 'smell', 'taste' (space quest!) could offer a player...
If you go back further, the advanced parser in the middle to late AGI and early SCI games offered even more immersion in games than the mouse/icon system did, as it offered for even more 'actions' (all sorts of verbs) for the player, only limited by the player's, and designer's own imagination.
Think for example, in SQ2, one of the puzzles involved "hold breath". But when Infamous Adventures redesigned the puzzle in their remake, they couldn't figure out how to implement that same 'action' with the more limited icon system!
Likewise many of the other remakes and fan remakes stripped out some of the extra messages that could be achieved by trying to use more imaginative verb noun combinations! Like for example trying to type 'dig' on various screens, or 'jump', 'kill', etc.
I'd like to chime in here...it's not that we "couldn't figure out" how to make this puzzle work in point and click, it's that we all agreed it was a stupid puzzle in the first place--one of those needlessly obscure things designed to sell hintbooks--and decided to take it out. We talked about making the player use the mouth icon before diving, but it just seemed pointless, as no real person in their right mind would dive under water without holding their breath. It was a stupid, stupid puzzle.
I agree with everything else you've said, by the way.
Did you forget when I said:
Further, the cheese is in a dark hole inside a dark room, and as I recall there are unimportant mice that randomly run out of rooms as you enter them when you navigate the catacombs in KQ6. It makes some sense to overlook a dark hole in a dark room even with a random mouse when you didn't even intend to get caught in the first place. (Also, in KQ6, you can get caught in the castle once and nothing of importance is in your cell.)
The bridle is inside a big ruined boat on a bright, sunny island you try to get to on purpose, rather than in a dungeon cell which you did not. Also, it makes sense to not be able to look into the boat if it's big enough that you couldn't see into it if you were standing in a place where the hull is blocking your view.
But whether or not you think the cheese is in an obvious location, anyone should know that they need some method of control for the unicorn, while there is no reason whatsoever to indicate you need cheese to power a magic-transference machine. So, if you are at the machine without the cheese, you're screwed. If you're at the unicorn without the bridle, at least you have some idea what the heck you're looking for.
Did I mention that the last impression given of KQ5 is a dead-endable puzzle with an entirely illogical solution, and that the last impression is one of the two most important parts of an experience? Yes. I did. (the spells don't count as they're only 4-option multiple choice, which requires no significant cognitive ability.)
So to recap:
In KQ4: object is found in completely random location with absolutely no in-game clues to look in said location. And on top of that, looking in that location only reveals the object if the player is standing in a very specific spot on the screen.
In KQ5: object is found in logical location with strong visual clues pointing you to look in said location. Clicking the Hand icon on the rat hole can be done from anywhere on the screen, and the player character will walk over and reach in the hole.
No contest.
Also, the little island is NOT something you were "trying to get to," as you describe it. You get there by getting swallowed by the whale while swimming out to Genesta's island. It's just as random as getting caught by the blue beast while exploring Mordack's castle.
I maintain my point about the solutions to said puzzles and the need for a good last impression.
But yeah, they're both pretty bad. For my money, having to wait in the library for Mordack is even worse than the cheese machine though.
http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/The_Royal_Scribe
No, seriously, can someone ask Roberta that the next time they get the chance of interviewing her! Inquiring minds wanna know! Maybe, someone could ask Ken, maybe he could find out?
I'm quite surprised nobody has asked Roberta about the cheese, actually.
I'm not saying those sequences are stupid. I'm saying I don't consider them as puzzles. ...more like interactive portions of the endgame cutscene.
There should have been an easier clue to actually find the bridle, though, yes.
The cheese, on the other hand--as pointed out, there is nothing pointing to it. If you missed it once, you're done (same as the bridle--Cassima only rescues you from the dungeon once, after all), you don't know you need it beforehand, and you get no clues at any point later that you do, either. At least the bridle makes sense and you know you need one.
My vote for worst puzzle still goes to honey and emeralds, however.
Yes, you knew you needed a bridle, but how does that help at all? Knowing you need a bridle does nothing to make it any more apparent that you need to search for it in such a specific place and in such a specific manner.
If I can type "Look at ground" and that works in every other bloody screen in the game, then why would I continue typing this phrase in multiple places on the same screen expecting a different result?
The thing that makes the bridle suck as a puzzle is not knowing you need it, or knowing when to use kit - it is finding it in the first place.... which shouldn't really be a puzzle to begin with.
As lambonious pointed out, at least you could see the mouse hole. It isn't hidden behind something else with no clue it exists. If your going to complain about the mouse hole, you might as well complain about every pixel hunt puzzle that ever existed in an adventure game.
Secondly - if I miss the cheese in the mouse hole, and I read the solution - I am going to blame myself for not being thorough enough. When I read that I had to be standing INSIDE a wrecked boat and type exactly what I had already tried.... well, I don't blame myself one bit for that. That is quite simply bad design.
Typing look on ANY other screen details the entire surroundings, whether Rosella can see them for her point of view or not. This is the only example of the parser selectively deciding that it will not reveal information about an object because it doesn't believe you can see it unless your standing on top of it.
Ultimately though, the bridle is ridiculously hard to find - but once you have it, you know what to do with it. The cheese has clues to find it, but once you have it you aren't clear on the point.... much like the damned yeti+ pie puzzle.
And if anyone is going to criticize puzzles that don't make sense, then holy hell, how are they a fan of KQ in the first place? Yeti-pie face? jewels in honey to catch an elf (that only works in ONE specific spot)? Not only saying Rumplestiltskin backwards, but actually having to transcribe the alphabet in reverse? Having to save a rat from a cat, only getting one chance to do it, and specifically accomplishing this by throwing a shoe?
Those are just a few of the strange ass requirements. There were quite a few other questionable "moon logic" puzzles as well.
To put it quite plainly, it is sad when a nerdy 12 year old (myself) was able to beat leisure Suit Larry with no problems, but King's Quest sent me on several hunts for a hint. Scoring as a loser from the 70's should not come more naturally to a kid then solving riddles in a fairy tale
Again, there is plenty of evidence to pointing to the cheese, once you get to the Dungeon... You are shown an animation of a rat/mouse going into a hole, even before the blue beast throws you into the room from his magic portal. You are given a minute or two look around the room, before Cassima shows up...
Most people will have the sense to use the eye and hand on various points in the screen... Looking for stuff to pick up or look at... Looking at mouse hole, which people should have the sense of trying to look at, brings up a large close up of the mouse hole with a chunk of cheese in it... That's pretty blatant!
The thing about rats in KQ6, they leave the screen, so there is no way to interact with them (other than look at them)! But in KQ5, the mouse disappears into a hole in the wall, that you can definitely look at.
Cheese and 'mice/rats' have a sense of logic to them! Cheese is often associated with mouse/rat traps, and mice and rats are often shown nibbling cheese in cartoon pictures.
Beyond that, the use of the cheese in the machine makes little sense...
You can throw a stick too (the stick or the shoe can be used against the dog as well, btw)... But there is some logic to this... In cartoons, whenever a cat or cats starts 'serenading' on the fence around someone's house, the first thing that the owner house does, is toss boots at the the cat!
Also I can't see why people have such a problem realizing they need to save the rat... The whole purpose of most of the puzzles is to do good deeds... and there are several similar puzzles, saving the bees from the bear, saving the ants from the dog... The rat and the cat is an extension to the 'vermin' puzzle line...
Plus to even activate the rat and the cat, you have to walk to a certain point in the screen at which point the game pauses, the narrator alerts you that a mangy cat is chasing a terrified rat (just before the rat and cat come onto the screen). At which point you are given the chance to save it.
It's all rather obvious... Anyone who ignores it, just isn't thinking...
Keep in mind that some puzzles, people complain about in the series, are actually rooted in obscure fairy tales or mythology... Unless you know the mythology, those can be stumpers as well...
LSL was more tied more into 'reality' and pop culture... So by nature its going to have less 'fantastical', more real-world logical puzzles.
Well, even it has a since of logic too it... Since 'pie to the face' is one of the oldest comedy tropes of the 20th century... considering at that point in the game you have no physical weapons (unless you count the tiny hammer), their isn't much you could actually try to use on the yeti...
The only way you can possibly screw that up, is eat the pie... But their is enough in the game to warn you that's not the right decision... For example the fact you don't receive any points if you eat the pie... While eating the half a lamb leg gives you points.
You can be standing anywhere in the scene and click the emeralds on either pair of eyes to trigger the puzzle, with Graham automatically walking over to where he needs to be.
Mice leave the screen in the catacombs in KQ6. Mice leave the screen in the dungeon in KQ5. Alexander can get caught, thrown in a dungeon cell and is rescued after a time in KQ6. Graham can get caught, thrown in a dungeon cell and is rescued after a time in KQ5. There is nothing of interest or value in Alexander's cell in KQ6.
It is logical to see a correlation.
If you reach the island, the only thing of value there (besides the means to leave, which you are able to do at any time) is the bridle, and the whale only starts appearing after Lollotte tells you to obtain the unicorn. Not before. It follows that you need to use the whale to get at what you're looking for if the whale never appeared before you were ever looking for it. The same goes for the ogre/ogress after she tells you to obtain the hen. There is no evidence at the associated puzzle or anywhere leading up to it pointing to the fact that you need cheese, and you get captured before you ever are given any hint that you need it. You might think the cheese's presence is obvious, but if it is missed there is nothing to suggest what it is that you needed. If you don't have the bridle, then you can make the unicorn like you but you can't ride on it, and you knew you were looking for the bridle when you get to where it is located; not so with the cheese.
Further, getting out of the whale is a puzzle on its own, so you know that you're supposed to have reached that point. In KQ6 there is no need to ever be captured and thrown in the dungeon and to do so serves no purpose, so it follows that one might overlook it happening in KQ5.
Big difference, the rats leave the side of the screens, or into doors in KQ6. In KQ5 the mouse enters a hole.
A astute and smart player would use the 'eye' and/or 'hand' on the the hole (and any other object on the screen). In KQ6 the average player would try looking at the 'passage ways' the rat went through. You are given several minutes to look around the screen for 2things to pick up... Anyone who has played a King's Quest game should know, always search high and low, inside, outside, underneath, behind...
The big difference is in KQ5 (if you followed the major Adventure games mantra), you will be given a close up. "don't just assume' that because you got trapped in a seemingly useless room that there isn't something that you can't do to interact within it...
As stated in the KQ5 manual, and is the standard rule in most adventure games, especially the early ones;
Anyone who missed the rather obvious 'mouse hole' clearly didn't follow the repeated rule to 'explore all surroundings', 'look at everything', or the 'pick up everything' not nailed down rules...
Seriously a player that doesn't use the 'eye' and 'hand' icons, on everything in every screen, clearly doesn't know how to play a Sierra adventure game.
In KQ6 if you are captured in a cell, Jollo will rescue almost instantly (after the guards conversation). If you have the key, on the second lock in you can escape (after the guard's conversation). The third attempt will lead to automatic death scene, after the guards conversation.
In all three instances the game pauses during the 'guards' conversation. In which you can't do anything but 'skip' the conversation by pushing any buttons.
Also infact, there is something of value in the cells! The child ghost puzzle! You must give the hankerchief to the ghost, or the ghost will alert the guards to your presence! Woe betide you, if you never got the hankerchief from its mother.
The child ghost is in a different cell than the one you are thrown into, and that cell is never locked. You don't need to be captured to enter it.
The cell you end up will always be locked, by the guards...
However, if you don't help the ghost, it will alert the guards.
Edit: Also tested, and the ghost can randomly appear in all three cells! Or at least seems to primarily choose to haunt the north and middle cells the most.
In anycase, you don't just assume a place is 'useless' or 'has nothing'. The rules in these games, was to check everything you could, explore everything, try to pick up everything. The developers intended players to be thourough. Once a player had finished investigation that was the point they could decide if they had been found everything or not.
All I have to say is, if you're going to defend one puzzle you must defend the other. They're both on equal playing fields.
And comparing cell capture rooms between games isn't really fair. For one thing KQ6 came after KQ5.
Yeah but....
KQ6 IS TEH BEST THING EVER IT HAZ NO FLAWZ OR ANYTHING LACKING IN IT IT IS AMAZING AND JANE JENSEN IS A ROCK GOD HER GAMES ARE TOTALLY DARK AND EPIC LIKE TWILIGHT, WHICH IS THE BEST BOOK EVA, OK MR. LIGHTHEARTED FANTASY LIKING PERSON? LIGHTHEARTED FANTASZY IS LIKE TOTALLY 1990, ITS FOR PEOPLE WITH MULLETS, YOU KNOW, IT'S OLD, IT DOESN'T WORK NOW WE LIVE IN 2012, ITS THE END OF THE WORLD, GET WITH THE TIMES, OLD MAN. GRITTY DARK STUFF LIKE CHRIS NOLAN MAKES IS ALL THAT MATTERS NOW.
Also, what does light-hearted fantasy vs gritty fantasy have to do with what we were discussing, anyways?
OMG we should get Jane Jensen to write a movie, Chris Nolan to direct it, George Lucas to produce it, and Robert Pattinson can be the star. It would be AWESOME!!
So?
Graham and Alexander have mullets? Coincidence or conspiracy?
That was in the vision of Roberta Williams, a hack who copied off a great man who we all know and love. She went back in time and stole his vision and made it with her small mind into a stupid fairy tale for all ages rather than into a dark, depressing, preachy, but OMGZ AWESOMEZ epic for teens who cut themselves.
In reality, Alexander loves Final Fantasy and Graham has cornrows.
Anything George Lucas has touched since 1997 or so is crappy, we all know this.
Andrew Lang, duh.
Ah, I was going to ask, what does Andrew Lang have to with mullets...
Then I remembered that one of the stories in his "collections" (an obvious term that means he must have 'plagiarized' other writers and story tellers himself) is;
"The Battle of the Mullets and the Dolphins"...!
Apparently its a story he took from "Pliny".
But based on that title it must be about disgruntled Miami Dolphins fans.
Anyone else see the flaw in this logic?
BTW, are there really even mice in the cell in KQ6? I only remember the spider in the foreground.
EDIT: Looks like several people already beat me to this comment. Lol--oh well. I do enjoy the debate, for what it's worth.
No mice run around in the cell in KQ6... A giant spider thing can appear in the foreground wall though!
Yes!
Haha...I never thought of that, but you're totally right. Caliphim was a cold-hearted bastard! Alexander only rescued him because he wanted to get into Cassima's knickers.
At least, that would be the "realistically psychological" take on it.
She later had regrets!
Murder/suicide maybe?
In anycase, the kid was 'lost', and couldn't find his way to the Realm of the Dead...
Or perhaps, he got lost (he said liked to play in the secret passages), and no one found him! He died, and his spirit stayed lost..
The mother died of grief, and hoped he could find his way back to her... But since she never found him, her own grief left her trapped on the surface.
You do get a few comments that apparently, they have been dead for ages 'long past' or some such.
That is a funny implication, though lol.