Mor, the real villain in episode 5? Someone needs to introduce Mordred, Morgause and Morganna (Morgan Le Fey/Morgaine) into KQ , lol.
Actually I'd kinda blame KQ5 for introducing organized wizards and villains.
On one side you have the Society of Wizards. On the other the connection between Mordack, Manannan and the Vizier...
It also existed in the King's Quest Companion with its evil family idea and the Magician's Guild. I suppose that those ideas developed in part, pre-KQ5...
Still I think the fan games and fan stories over do it, when they incorporate every single villain the series has ever known! Way too much Legion of Doom, for my tastes.
Of course it's overdone. But that's the point. It's fun. No harm done. It's not canon or anything. It was really neat for me personally when I first played KQ2+ back in 2002. I really enjoyed it and thought it was spectacular. 10 years later it stands the test of time as a great game and I still enjoy it.
I was talking about organizing good guys vs. bad guys. I.E. organizations of wizards and villains!
Not all who are organized are 'wizards'.
Society of Wizards is more of a 'good guy' organization, thus why Mordack was tossed out. Some fan fiction writers see it as kind of the Good Society that stands up to the Black Cloak Society.
The Vizier (who is connected to Mordack, and by proxy to Manannan in KQ5), as we learn in the next game KQ6, is a member of the Society of the Black Cloaks.
Techie, the idea was serious, but pay attention to the narration. There are alot of break the fourth wall style humor in it. Very silly stuff... It was also the last of the games to play the narration as 'you as the character'. 2nd Person narration..., and later games pushed more towards more of a 3rd Person style of narration.
Look at some of the stuff said during the few conversations... Incuding the whole 'tattoo' remark, or the 'twincest' comments (milky white skin, sweeet cherry lips, bountiful assets, you'd kiss/date her if she wasn't your sister")!
For all intents and purposes the game has a relatively bright and cheery artstyle, and atmosphere throughout...
Baggins, I agree with you that KQ3 was very silly and lighthearted in areas. But Techie is also right to say it was very dark. Let's face, a wizard kidnapping babies, making slaves of them, and then murdering them on their 18th birthday is still pretty dark.
Ya, and you really only get that story out of the manual! It's barely touched on in the game itself (in all but a single line of narration, if at all).
Even if you get the wizard to kill you in the game, its done in a kind of tongue and cheek 'Batman' sort of way (ZAP! Pow!Bzzt!). Even Manannan's punishments are 'cute'.
The chores? Even that is done in a humorous way, as we learn that Gwydion isn't actually very good at actually 'cleaning'. Sweeping dust under the rug, rather than actually sweeping it up and tossing it. The narrator pokes fun at that fact.
There is a certain level of 'danger' and foreboding to the game, set by the timer, and having to beat the clock to avoid manannan. But that's not quite the same thing as 'dark'.
While I agree the 'concept' in the story are dark, and there are some 'dark spots', it never really gets that dark in execution... Almost everything is filled with self-referential humor, and even the game's various deaths are played for laughs.
Now, I would say the introduction theme is certainly moody and sad! Although most of the music in the main game itself is pretty generic, quite a bit of stock 'happy' music... Some are childhood hits like Teddy Bear's Picnic, IIRC....
That being said Roberta did consider it to be one of her darkest KQ games. She may have even argued it was darker than KQ8.
I was talking about organizing good guys vs. bad guys. I.E. organizations of wizards and villains!
Not all who are organized are 'wizards'.
Society of Wizards is more of a 'good guy' organization, thus why Mordack was tossed out. Some fan fiction writers see it as kind of the Good Society that stands up to the Black Cloak Society.
The Vizier (who is connected to Mordack, and by proxy to Manannan in KQ5), as we learn in the next game KQ6, is a member of the Society of the Black Cloaks.
I hate the whole organized villain society found in the KQ series despite that QfG, a game I love, technically does it as well. However, with QFG, I think it is executed better; rather than an organization of evil wizards, it is a wizard (Ad Advis) who tends to be somehow involved in most of the QFG games (direct involvement in tof and sod, but an indirect involvement in QG3)
I'm less annoyed at the "organized villain society" thing (a la AGDI; I do not include TSL and refuse to play it) but what I find myself more annoyed at is the blaming of the fan games' story embellishments on a few off-hand and (plot-wise) entirely unimportant mentions in one of the canon games.
Although this is unlikely, but I would love to see TT do a remake of Kq1 through 4. I want to see them being remade with a more in-depth storyline, but at the same time, have ties to other myths and fairytales like the old games. I would imagine the opening of a KQ1 remake opening up like one of those fairytale cartoons where it starts with a book opening up and the narrator saying "Once upon a time.." we then see Graham on horseback rushing to the castle to meet his dying king. The ailing king then tells Garaham to find the three treasures. One reason or another Graham has no shield and sword (maybe Graham has just came home from an ongoing war, and his weapons are all battered and worn.)
IMO, I think the kQ games (especially the older titles) should be done with a balance between a serious and humorou atmospheres. I don't think a really serious and dark Kq game, if heavily refers to the kq1-3 games) would work.
Would you shut up about this? KQ6 did not "open the door" for the plot devices the fan-games made. The Society of the Black Cloak was only given one mention in that game, and it was only on an inventory item that showed proof that Cassima was in danger. That's it. If you hate the fan games, then you do. Now, stop bitching about KQ6, and start talking about something productive toward making TTG's game better (as blueskirt suggested.)
I somewhat agree with you there because fanfiction, no matter what franchise it is based on, tends to ship (romantically pair up) characters together or introduce some sort of family connection. I am no English professor, but I think fanfic authors do this as a means to link one character, whether he/she is a fan made character or not, to the overall story universe. Ppl love making or reading connections.
I do think, however, that the mentioning of the Black Cloak society in one of the KQ6 cutscenes did "open a door" for the evil wizard organization plot devices found in KQ fan fiction. While the mentioning of the Black Cloak society is brief in the game, it is one of the most talked about subjects in the KQ community.
The Black Cloak Society is mentioned several times in KQ6 as such;
1. During the oracle prophecy. Somewhat cryptically.
2. During Alhazred's letter to Shadrack, you eavesdrop on.
3. On a letter discovered written by Shadrack, contains several mentions, and related correspondence going back several months to years in the chest.
4. A bunch of black cloaks are seen in Alhazred's closet/armoir, and on a hook in his study.
5. The Genie wears the black cloaks at least two of his guises, one of the more important of these guises as the evil old man that spies on you in the shops in town, and in which you trick into thinking Alexander died.
6. Indirectly, both Cassima and Saladin comment on the letter. The letter can also be clicked on a couple of other characters for some 'narrative' comments as well in the end game, IIRC as well.
There might be a reference, albeit somewhat more indirectly when you speak to the ghosts of the king and queen.
In no way did that mentions connect all the baddies from the entire series... At the most it connected Shadrack, Abdul Alhazred, the Genie, and Mordack.
KQ5 connected Mordack, Manannan and the Vizier, but not necessarily to the Black Cloaks. KQ5 only briefly discussed Vizier and Mordack's plans for Cassima.
In no way did KQ6 imply that Shadrack was the leader of the Black Cloaks. The actual hiearchy is not really known.
So while the fan games and other fan fiction 'went' off of these references... They actually embellished on the reference way beyond anything the canon games did themselves... By basically pulling in every one from Hagatha, Manannan, Lolotte and Malicia. In some cases Dahlia, and Lucreto into the membership of the Black Cloaks... and/or creating new members or leaders, I.E. Caldaur and Morgeillen, Valanice, Alexander and Pandora. These aren't just embellishments but the basis for entire central plot lines in the fan stories... The funny thing is that fan interpretations of the Black Cloaks all share much of the same ideas in alot of ways... Usually some prophecy tied to the black cloaks and the royal family through its lineage... Sometimes these prophecies are 1000 years in the making... They both concern or usually concern some ancient artifact that villains are after, that will give them ultimate power... They both involve some plot line of the Black Cloaks manipulating the magic mirror to draw Graham to Kolyma in order to manipulate his life...
Scratch that its really the plot line of saturday morning cartoons, the Scooby Doo/Superfriends, 'Legion of Doom' type plots... All pretty cliched... That's not to say even the canon games are filled with cliches themselves (they are based directly off fairy tales are they not?)... But sometimes it seems the fan stories are even more so...
The Black Cloak Society is mentioned several times in KQ6 as such;
1. During the oracle prophecy. Somewhat cryptically.
2. During Alhazred's letter to Shadrack, you eavesdrop on.
3. On a letter discovered written by Shadrack, contains several mentions, and related correspondence going back several months to years in the chest.
4. A bunch of black cloaks are seen in Alhazred's closet/armoir, and on a hook in his study.
5. The Genie wears the black cloaks at least two of his guises, one of the more important of these guises as the evil old man that spies on you in the shops in town, and in which you trick into thinking Alexander died.
6. Indirectly, both Cassima and Saladin comment on the letter. The letter can also be clicked on a couple of other characters for some 'narrative' comments as well in the end game, IIRC as well.
There might be a reference, albeit somewhat more indirectly when you speak to the ghosts of the king and queen.
In no way did that mentions connect all the baddies from the entire series... At the most it connected Shadrack, Abdul Alhazred, the Genie, and Mordack.
KQ5 connected Mordack, Manannan and the Vizier, but not necessarily to the Black Cloaks. KQ5 only briefly discussed Vizier and Mordack's plans for Cassima.
In no way did KQ6 imply that Shadrack was the leader of the Black Cloaks. The actual hiearchy is not really known.
So while the fan games and other fan fiction 'went' off of these references... They actually embellished on the reference way beyond anything the canon games did themselves... By basically pulling in every one from Hagatha, Manannan, Lolotte and Malicia. In some cases Dahlia, and Lucreto into the membership of the Black Cloaks... and/or creating new members or leaders, I.E. Caldaur and Morgeillen, Valanice, Alexander and Pandora. These aren't just embellishments but the basis for entire central plot lines in the fan stories... The funny thing is that fan interpretations of the Black Cloaks all share much of the same ideas in alot of ways... Usually some prophecy tied to the black cloaks and the royal family through its lineage... Sometimes these prophecies are 1000 years in the making... They both concern or usually concern some ancient artifact that villains are after, that will give them ultimate power... They both involve some plot line of the Black Cloaks manipulating the magic mirror to draw Graham to Kolyma in order to manipulate his life...
Scratch that its really the plot line of saturday morning cartoons, the Scooby Doo/Superfriends, 'Legion of Doom' type plots... All pretty cliched... That's not to say even the canon games are filled with cliches themselves (they are based directly off fairy tales are they not?)... But sometimes it seems the fan stories are even more so....
When I was younger, I thought the Black Cloak Society was a neat addition. However, when I have gotten older, it seems too cliche (like you said.). I think the problem with the Black Cloak Society subplot is that it is left unanswered. There was so much build up in KQ6 that one would expect there would be some mention of it. If Jansen was allowed to do the later KQ games, I am sure she would pull off the Black Cloak Society plot nicely. If one thinks about it, games like Broken Sword(Neo Templars) and books (Harry Potter) with an evil organization are written well. I think how the fanfic handles the cloaks tied up to the Daventry lineage and having every villain tied to the society is what killed it for me. Like the secret of MI is to the creator of MI, I think the Black Cloak Society should only be handled by Jansen.
I read about the Black Cloak Society on the KQ wiki, and IMO, it appears that the Society is just a society where Evil Wizards hang out and share their evil plans with over chess - That would be an interesting take on the society -I would love to see the society handled that way in a canon game
I always felt Shadrack should appear in an official game. He is a loose end. But he should be fairly stand alone villain. Much in the way for the most part villains were stand alone in each game of the series. If there are other black cloaks in the game they should be original villains. I'd rather see black cloaks as something of its own entity.
That is to say, most villains in previous KQ games except for those already confirmed in KQ6 and possibly KQ5 (Roberta had said Manannan may possibly be a member), have nothing to do with the organization. Please.
Maybe toss in a bit of a classic mystery style story. So a kind of investigation is required. Shade doesn't necessarily have to be the leader (he probably isn't), he could just be another cultist in the ranks.
Ultimately the game ends with the destruction of the cult, or at least sets up for the hunt of the real leader in a later game.
I personally wouldn't mind Jane Jensen coming back to help with the ideas, or get it closer to the ideas as she originally envisioned. Unless her idea was for full series Legion of Doom, then I'd rather she stay away, as that's way too predictable.
I'd equally be fine (and prefer) with the ideas of stopping Shadrack in the confines of a standard KQ plot, just another wizard with a plan to take/over conquer a new land. The story could have very little information on the black cloaks except for a few cryptic references. Maybe explain a few more things but still leave the organization fairly open ended. While still avoiding the Legion of Doom cliche.
I read about the Black Cloak Society on the KQ wiki, and IMO, it appears that the Society is just a society where Evil Wizards hang out and share their evil plans with over chess - That would be an interesting take on the society -I would love to see the society handled that way in a canon game
LOL, just a mere men's club, with no nefarious plans to conquer the entire world. Just individual wizards and magicians concerned with their own lands to conquer . Maybe they don't just play chess, a little 'dice' (Alhazred has a pair of ivory dice in his belongings), some blackjack, backgammon, checkers, othello, cribbage... etc! That would be so ironically funny
Btw, i've expanded the informationon the canonical Society of the Black Cloak, within the article on the KQ wiki. I've added more information from the games and KQ companion. The new information added a discussion of hiearchy and modes of communication, as well as the correspondence between Shadrack and Alhazred.
Oh, and btw, "The Father". Roberta Williams came up or used the concept of The Father before AGDI did... In her games, Lucreto is referred to as The Father.
Obviously AGDI's 'The Father', has no connection. It's also not very original, Roberta beat them to it!
I always felt Shadrack should appear in an official game. He is a loose end. But he should be fairly stand alone villain. Much in the way for the most part villains were stand alone in each game of the series. If there are other black cloaks in the game they should be original villains. I'd rather see black cloaks as something of its own entity.
That is to say, most villains in previous KQ games except for those already confirmed in KQ6 and possibly KQ5 (Roberta had said Manannan may possibly be a member), have nothing to do with the organization. Please.
Maybe toss in a bit of a classic mystery style story. So a kind of investigation is required. Shade doesn't necessarily have to be the leader (he probably isn't), he could just be another cultist in the ranks.
Ultimately the game ends with the destruction of the cult, or at least sets up for the hunt of the real leader in a later game.
I personally wouldn't mind Jane Jensen coming back to help with the ideas, or get it closer to the ideas as she originally envisioned. Unless her idea was for full series Legion of Doom, then I'd rather she stay away, as that's way too predictable.
I'd equally be fine (and prefer) with the ideas of stopping Shadrack in the confines of a standard KQ plot, just another wizard with a plan to take/over conquer a new land. The story could have very little information on the black cloaks except for a few cryptic references. Maybe explain a few more things but still leave the organization fairly open ended. While still avoiding the Legion of Doom cliche.
LOL, just a mere men's club, with no nefarious plans to conquer the entire world. Just individual wizards and magicians concerned with their own lands to conquer . Maybe they don't just play chess, a little 'dice' (Alhazred has a pair of ivory dice in his belongings), some blackjack, backgammon, checkers, othello, cribbage... etc! That would be so ironically funny
Btw, i've expanded the informationon the canonical Society of the Black Cloak, within the article on the KQ wiki. I've added more information from the games and KQ companion. The new information added a discussion of hiearchy and modes of communication, as well as the correspondence between Shadrack and Alhazred.
Haha it is funny, yet i wouldn't be surprised if Jansen was heading in that direction. From reading the letters posted on the wiki site, it sounds as if Alhazred is merely giving Shadrack updated progress on his attempt in taking over the Crown. Being an evil wizard must be lonely, so having a club where other wizards share their evil plot with one another would be beneficial for them. It sure beats sharing the evil plot to the enemy before his/her demise. I think IA's version of KQ3 has Manannan visiting his brother to play chess and to talk about the Dragon.
I would love to see a canonical or a fan fiction game to depict the society as just social club. It would certainly be better than an evil organization with some grudge to the Daventry lineage. Prehaps having a fan game where Shadrack is writing letters to cat Manannan or to Alhazred. If the latter, the letters could be about Shadrack hearing of Alhazred's imprisonment. The letters could also imply that Shadrack is taking care of cat Manannan as a dying wish from Mordok. For instance, the letter could be something to the likes of "Dear Alhazred, I am sorry that your plans in taking over the Isles didn't go as planned. Cheer up! It is rare for anyone in our society to successfully take over a kingdom. At least you weren't turned into a cat like Manannan.
Speaking of Manannan, Mordok left me as sole guardian of his brother in his will. I am not too fond of removing fur from my furniture on a daily basis, but at least now I have a friend to talk to.
Have faith, brother of the cloak. I will come up with a plan to break you out of prison.
What about a satirical adventure game where you play as a lonely and lowly new initiate member of the club? Just starting to try to develop your own plan to conquer a kingdom? But what ends up happening, is you end up helping everyone else (the other members) with their plans instead! Just to get a little advice from them!
Wizard's Quest I: Rise of the Black Cloak!
The sequel could actually lead to your character finally having enough information to put his own plan into fruition!
What about a satirical adventure game where you play as a lonely and lowly new initiate member of the club? Just starting to try to develop your own plan to conquer a kingdom? But what ends up happening, is you end up helping everyone else (the other members) with their plans instead! Just to get a little advice from them!
Wizard's Quest I: Rise of the Black Cloak!
The sequel could actually lead to your character finally having enough information to put his own plan into fruition!
Haha. That would be funny! We(as in the tt forum community) should make that game! We can even avoid all the copyright mumble jumbo by not mentioning any of the existing wizards by name. For example, Mananann can be Manny and Shadrack can be referred to his nickname "Shade."
The end twist could be that the main protagonist is really a long lost member of the Royal family. Haha.
Made a few more edits, and observations, and comparisons between the game and novelized versions of the green isles conspiracy.
Primarily the differences in who is involved.
The game making it primarily Alhazred's plan. It is "My" (from Alhazred's prespective); "My long preparations", "my power and my crown" (from Alhazred's) and "yours" (from Shadrack's POV); "your way", "your crown", "kingdom of yours"). Whereas the companion makes it both of their plans, "Our plans", though Shadrack acknowledges that Alhazred is doing most of the work!
I think one thing to take note, in the game, that Shadrack seems to acknowledge Mordack of being at least an equal to him, if not more (all though not so much in chess), as he calls him the 'great Mordack'.
From the Companion perspective he seems to treat Alhazred as a lesser to him. Noting that while he does compliment Alhazred a bit, at the same time he ribs him a bit by pointing out Alhazred's success at causing the islands to turn on each other, and eliminating the parents is a 'strategem worthy of even himself'.
I'm still not sure how much Mordack was involved in the plans... Was he fully in on it? Or did Alhazred (and/or Shadrack) just take advantage of Alhazred's friendship/insubordination to Mordack, in an attempt to get rid of a loose end. We know in both versions of the letter, the idea was at least Shadrack's idea to get rid of Cassima (...i.e. "recommended/advised").
Also Shadrack seems to see cassima as actively 'meddling' into his own plans in the Companion (whereas in the game, he seems to just warn that she could pose a threat to Alhazred if not dealt with).
The end twist could be that the main protagonist is really a long lost member of the Royal family. Haha
Cousin (or evil Uncle) Ralphy, everyone calls him Bob... He could be Graham's long lost brother?
Made a few more edits, and observations, and comparisons between the game and novelized versions of the green isles conspiracy.
Primarily the differences in who is involved.
The game making it primarily Alhazred's plan. It is "My" (from Alhazred's prespective); "My long preparations", "my power and my crown" (from Alhazred's) and "yours" (from Shadrack's POV); "your way", "your crown", "kingdom of yours"). Whereas the companion makes it both of their plans, "Our plans", though Shadrack acknowledges that Alhazred is doing most of the work!
I think one thing to take note, in the game, that Shadrack seems to acknowledge Mordack of being at least an equal to him, if not more (all though not so much in chess), as he calls him the 'great Mordack'.
From the Companion perspective he seems to treat Alhazred as a lesser to him. Noting that while he does compliment Alhazred a bit, at the same time he ribs him a bit by pointing out Alhazred's success at causing the islands to turn on each other, and eliminating the parents is a 'strategem worthy of even himself'.
I'm still not sure how much Mordack was involved in the plans... Was he fully in on it? Or did Alhazred (and/or Shadrack) just take advantage of Alhazred's friendship/insubordination to Mordack, in an attempt to get rid of a loose end. We know in both versions of the letter, the idea was at least Shadrack's idea to get rid of Cassima (...i.e. "recommended/adviced").
Also Shadrack seems to see cassima as actively 'meddling' into his own plans in the Companion (whereas in the game, he seems to just warn that she could pose a threat to Alhazred if not dealt with).
Cousin (or evil Uncle) Ralphy, everyone calls him Bob... He could be Graham's long lost brother?
Ralphy is actually Larry Loveage's counterpart - I was looking for info on a street fighter porn parody after reading about it on one of the comments at Kotaku. However, i ended up finding info on a new LSL porn parody entitled "Leisure Suit Ralphy.".
Anyway, what goes with well with graham crackers? That should be Graham's long lost brother or sister's (to mirror Prince Alexander's and Princess Rosella's origin) name.
I was messing around with ScummVM and DOSBox earlier, and subsequently farting around in King's Quest VI... and I realize just how many hotspots the game has. I'm not sure TTG would do their KQ game justice if they don't have a bazillion unnecessary hotspots.
Take this screen for example:
What's it's purpose? It's a crossroads between four other screens (2 outside, and 2 shops), and one NPC to talk to. Yet there are a ton of things which the examine cursor gives separate and unique responses for. Among some I may have missed, there are:
the northern archway,
the door of the bookstore,
the door of the pawn shop,
the bookstore sign,
the pawn shop sign,
the bookstore window,
the pawn shop window,
the bookstore building,
the pawn shop building
the shutters,
the trees,
the bookstore's second floor windows,
the hanging red pants ,
a villager when seen at a second floor window,
the short fat pot,
the tall thin vase,
the short round pot on the box,
the big box which has the pot on it,
the gourd-shaped jugs,
the lamp peddler,
the lamp peddler's pole of lamps,
the general vicinity,
and Alexander, himself.
Now, I could have chosen to use the inside of the pawn shop as an example (as it surely has more to look at) but this particular screen--aside from having the lamp peddler and (eventually) the invisible ink bottle--is of no real consequence besides to get from one screen to another. The fact that it still has a bunch of different stuff to click on says something about the quality of Sierra's games, imo... and I've only listed what you can examine, and have not included what you can interact with using the other cursors.
I was messing around with ScummVM and DOSBox earlier, and subsequently farting around in King's Quest VI... and I realize just how many hotspots the game has. I'm not sure TTG would do their KQ game justice if they don't have a bazillion unnecessary hotspots.
Take this screen for example:
What's it's purpose? It's a crossroads between four other screens (2 outside, and 2 shops), and one NPC to talk to. Yet there are a ton of things which the examine cursor gives separate and unique responses for. Among some I may have missed, there are:
the northern archway,
the door of the bookstore,
the door of the pawn shop,
the bookstore sign,
the pawn shop sign,
the bookstore window,
the pawn shop window,
the bookstore building,
the pawn shop building
the shutters,
the trees,
the bookstore's second floor windows,
the hanging red pants ,
a villager when seen at a second floor window,
the short fat pot,
the tall thin vase,
the short round pot on the box,
the big box which has the pot on it,
the gourd-shaped jugs,
the lamp peddler,
the lamp peddler's pole of lamps,
the general vicinity,
and Alexander, himself.
Now, I could have chosen to use the inside of the pawn shop as an example (as it surely has more to look at) but this particular screen--aside from having the lamp peddler and (eventually) the invisible ink bottle--is of no real consequence besides to get from one screen to another. The fact that it still has a bunch of different stuff to click on says something about the quality of Sierra's games, imo... and I've only listed what you can examine, and have not included what you can interact with using the other cursors.
Yeah having a lot to look at, do, examine, etc was one of the best points of the KQ series. It adds replayability to the first 6 games, to go back and look at and listen to descriptions of stuff you never bothered with your first time around. I'd argue SQ did it better, though, at least SQ4.
Although KQ6 is actually somewhat of the exception to most KQ games. Most hardly contain as much extra narrative stuff.
KQ5 had nearly the same (5 or more things to look at, and a generic screen description ) it just wasn't implemented as nicely (don't look at the exact spot you might get a red x instead).
KQ1 remake also was the last of the KQ games with good amount of extra narration. Right clicking was similar to using eye cursor in that game. Though like KQ5 there are blank spots.
SQ4 unfortunately also has the same issue as in KQ5 with blank spots and red X.
Although KQ6 is actually somewhat of the exception to most KQ games. Most hardly contain as much extra narrative stuff.
KQ5 had nearly the same (5 or more things to look at, and a generic screen description ) it just wasn't implemented as nicely (don't look at the exact spot you might get a red x instead).
KQ1 remake also was the last of the KQ games with good amount of extra narration. Right clicking was similar to using eye cursor in that game. Though like KQ5 there are blank spots.
SQ4 unfortunately also has the same issue as in KQ5 with blank spots and red X.
Yes but with SQ4 you had the extra options of being able to taste and smell tons of things on any particular screen.
How was KQ1SCI the last to have a good amount of extra narration?
I actually don't mind the lack of a narrator in KQ7 btw. I consider the narrator a bonus, and as graphics were becoming more and more detailed, a narrator was becoming vestigial. I mean in 1984 when "graphics" were simple pixels, a narrator was a necessity because it gave you an idea of what these tiny pixels were supposed to be. But in 1994 when they were using SVGA graphics, a narrator really wasn't necessary and probably seemed a bit archaic.
I think the use of a narrator (along with the lack of action) would turn off potential new players who are used to modern games.
I would have liked more detailed narrative in KQ5 in places as well... Like ability to get a description of the little village the Roc takes you over etc...
I consider the narrator a bonus, and as graphics were becoming more and more detailed, a narrator was becoming vestigial. I mean in 1984 when "graphics" were simple pixels, a narrator was a necessity because it gave you an idea of what these tiny pixels were supposed to be. But in 1994 when they were using SVGA graphics, a narrator really wasn't necessary and probably seemed a bit archaic.
I think the use of a narrator (along with the lack of action) would turn off potential new players who are used to modern games.
If by narrator you mean a voice distinct from the character you're playing, I would agree. But I think one or the other is usually necessary to give feedback and other information, not always straight-up descriptions but just to add to the game's atmosphere, no matter how "modern" the game is. In fact I believe the idea of the voiceless protagonist works well in some cases, eg. Myst, but was adopted too widely for the good of the genre, as if there was some rule that the playable character in a first-person perspective game had to be silent. A good example is Sierra's Lighthouse, a game in which there is no pretense that you're playing yourself or a purposefully anonymous person -- I think it would have been a much better game if the character was speaking throughout. I guess I played too many Myst-clones I thought would have been a little less boring if I'd just had someone to talk to, LOL.
If by narrator you mean a voice distinct from the character you're playing, I would agree. But I think one or the other is usually necessary to give feedback and other information, not always straight-up descriptions but just to add to the game's atmosphere, no matter how "modern" the game is. In fact I believe the idea of the voiceless protagonist works well in some cases, eg. Myst, but was adopted too widely for the good of the genre, as if there was some rule that the playable character in a first-person perspective game had to be silent. A good example is Sierra's Lighthouse, a game in which there is no pretense that you're playing yourself or a purposefully anonymous person -- I think it would have been a much better game if the character was speaking throughout. I guess I played too many Myst-clones I thought would have been a little less boring if I'd just had someone to talk to, LOL.
I suppose narration would work (in a modern game) if done differently. For example instead of a simple description of whatever you're looking at, IE, "Nestled among the woods sits the wizard Crispin's little house", it could be a description sort of from the character's POV--The character's take on what he/she is seeing, IE "Graham thinks that the wizard Crispin's house, while not a castle, is a charming, inviting little cottage." Something like that albeit better written.
I suppose narration would work (in a modern game) if done differently. For example instead of a simple description of whatever you're looking at, IE, "Nestled among the woods sits the wizard Crispin's little house", it could be a description sort of from the character's POV--The character's take on what he/she is seeing, IE "Graham thinks that the wizard Crispin's house, while not a castle, is a charming, inviting little cottage." Something like that albeit better written.
Then we could get a nice description of how badly Graham really wants to beat Cedric to death.
EDIT: Ooh. I have another idea. KQ5, narrated by Cedric!
Cedric often acted as the narrator in KQ5... He was the one who did the general room descriptions in many of the screens he was on (whereas when you left to places he wouldn't follow, the narrator would take up those descriptions instead)...
Some of those include the 'It's a poisonous snake"...
sort of from the character's POV--The character's take on what he/she is seeing, IE "Graham thinks that the wizard Crispin's house, while not a castle, is a charming, inviting little cottage." Something like that albeit better written.
That's basically how the original King's Quest games did it, especially the first 3 (although it was more 'you think that blah blah'). Some of the ones in KQ5 (Graham thinks of his missing family as he stares at the little blue bird, blah blah) are also from that perspective...
Actually that's one of the reasons why I wanted KQ7 to have narration, just to give the player more insight from character's perspectives on what they thought they were seeing... You were stuck with just hotspots on what the characters 'found interesting', and that they offer a hint or clue that something else was needed...
Even Connor, tended to offer even more detailed descriptions of things that he saw, than the "I find this interesting' style comments that were all too common in KQ7... Not to mention if you turn on cheats, you could basically get a short description of nearly every item, character, place in the game!
Also narration often gives more insight into the culture, history, and other things in the lands... Without that it makes the story somewhat more dry... Especially if you want to know a little more about what you are seeing... Yes, it might be in greater hi-res detail, and I know what I'm seeing... But what else can we learn from it about local customs, history, etc.
Has anyone played Phoenix Wright/Ace Attorney series? Even that series while looking at things is optional (other than finding evidence), you can look at almost everything in the 'investigation' sequences in the game... There is often some interesting thoughts on what is seen.
So Replay Games is talking about how they want to do King's Quest titles. Does ANYONE at Telltale know anything about this? If the game is canceled let us know! It's been so long! :-(
Comments
Actually I'd kinda blame KQ5 for introducing organized wizards and villains.
On one side you have the Society of Wizards. On the other the connection between Mordack, Manannan and the Vizier...
It also existed in the King's Quest Companion with its evil family idea and the Magician's Guild. I suppose that those ideas developed in part, pre-KQ5...
Still I think the fan games and fan stories over do it, when they incorporate every single villain the series has ever known! Way too much Legion of Doom, for my tastes.
But we've gone off topic again.
Oh and look for someone to sacrifice...To the almighty god Cthulhu...
I know where you're coming from but the Vizier really wasn't a Wizard. He just controlled a Genie which allowed him to use magic.
Not all who are organized are 'wizards'.
Society of Wizards is more of a 'good guy' organization, thus why Mordack was tossed out. Some fan fiction writers see it as kind of the Good Society that stands up to the Black Cloak Society.
The Vizier (who is connected to Mordack, and by proxy to Manannan in KQ5), as we learn in the next game KQ6, is a member of the Society of the Black Cloaks.
http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Abdul_Alhazred
[url]http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Society of the Black Cloak[/url]
Baggins, I agree with you that KQ3 was very silly and lighthearted in areas. But Techie is also right to say it was very dark. Let's face, a wizard kidnapping babies, making slaves of them, and then murdering them on their 18th birthday is still pretty dark.
Even if you get the wizard to kill you in the game, its done in a kind of tongue and cheek 'Batman' sort of way (ZAP! Pow!Bzzt!). Even Manannan's punishments are 'cute'.
The chores? Even that is done in a humorous way, as we learn that Gwydion isn't actually very good at actually 'cleaning'. Sweeping dust under the rug, rather than actually sweeping it up and tossing it. The narrator pokes fun at that fact.
There is a certain level of 'danger' and foreboding to the game, set by the timer, and having to beat the clock to avoid manannan. But that's not quite the same thing as 'dark'.
While I agree the 'concept' in the story are dark, and there are some 'dark spots', it never really gets that dark in execution... Almost everything is filled with self-referential humor, and even the game's various deaths are played for laughs.
Now, I would say the introduction theme is certainly moody and sad! Although most of the music in the main game itself is pretty generic, quite a bit of stock 'happy' music... Some are childhood hits like Teddy Bear's Picnic, IIRC....
That being said Roberta did consider it to be one of her darkest KQ games. She may have even argued it was darker than KQ8.
I hate the whole organized villain society found in the KQ series despite that QfG, a game I love, technically does it as well. However, with QFG, I think it is executed better; rather than an organization of evil wizards, it is a wizard (Ad Advis) who tends to be somehow involved in most of the QFG games (direct involvement in tof and sod, but an indirect involvement in QG3)
IMO, I think the kQ games (especially the older titles) should be done with a balance between a serious and humorou atmospheres. I don't think a really serious and dark Kq game, if heavily refers to the kq1-3 games) would work.
I somewhat agree with you there because fanfiction, no matter what franchise it is based on, tends to ship (romantically pair up) characters together or introduce some sort of family connection. I am no English professor, but I think fanfic authors do this as a means to link one character, whether he/she is a fan made character or not, to the overall story universe. Ppl love making or reading connections.
I do think, however, that the mentioning of the Black Cloak society in one of the KQ6 cutscenes did "open a door" for the evil wizard organization plot devices found in KQ fan fiction. While the mentioning of the Black Cloak society is brief in the game, it is one of the most talked about subjects in the KQ community.
1. During the oracle prophecy. Somewhat cryptically.
2. During Alhazred's letter to Shadrack, you eavesdrop on.
3. On a letter discovered written by Shadrack, contains several mentions, and related correspondence going back several months to years in the chest.
4. A bunch of black cloaks are seen in Alhazred's closet/armoir, and on a hook in his study.
5. The Genie wears the black cloaks at least two of his guises, one of the more important of these guises as the evil old man that spies on you in the shops in town, and in which you trick into thinking Alexander died.
6. Indirectly, both Cassima and Saladin comment on the letter. The letter can also be clicked on a couple of other characters for some 'narrative' comments as well in the end game, IIRC as well.
There might be a reference, albeit somewhat more indirectly when you speak to the ghosts of the king and queen.
In no way did that mentions connect all the baddies from the entire series... At the most it connected Shadrack, Abdul Alhazred, the Genie, and Mordack.
KQ5 connected Mordack, Manannan and the Vizier, but not necessarily to the Black Cloaks. KQ5 only briefly discussed Vizier and Mordack's plans for Cassima.
In no way did KQ6 imply that Shadrack was the leader of the Black Cloaks. The actual hiearchy is not really known.
So while the fan games and other fan fiction 'went' off of these references... They actually embellished on the reference way beyond anything the canon games did themselves... By basically pulling in every one from Hagatha, Manannan, Lolotte and Malicia. In some cases Dahlia, and Lucreto into the membership of the Black Cloaks... and/or creating new members or leaders, I.E. Caldaur and Morgeillen, Valanice, Alexander and Pandora. These aren't just embellishments but the basis for entire central plot lines in the fan stories... The funny thing is that fan interpretations of the Black Cloaks all share much of the same ideas in alot of ways... Usually some prophecy tied to the black cloaks and the royal family through its lineage... Sometimes these prophecies are 1000 years in the making... They both concern or usually concern some ancient artifact that villains are after, that will give them ultimate power... They both involve some plot line of the Black Cloaks manipulating the magic mirror to draw Graham to Kolyma in order to manipulate his life...
Scratch that its really the plot line of saturday morning cartoons, the Scooby Doo/Superfriends, 'Legion of Doom' type plots... All pretty cliched... That's not to say even the canon games are filled with cliches themselves (they are based directly off fairy tales are they not?)... But sometimes it seems the fan stories are even more so...
http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Cloak_Society_(unofficial)
Thanks for the detailed comment.
When I was younger, I thought the Black Cloak Society was a neat addition. However, when I have gotten older, it seems too cliche (like you said.). I think the problem with the Black Cloak Society subplot is that it is left unanswered. There was so much build up in KQ6 that one would expect there would be some mention of it. If Jansen was allowed to do the later KQ games, I am sure she would pull off the Black Cloak Society plot nicely. If one thinks about it, games like Broken Sword(Neo Templars) and books (Harry Potter) with an evil organization are written well. I think how the fanfic handles the cloaks tied up to the Daventry lineage and having every villain tied to the society is what killed it for me. Like the secret of MI is to the creator of MI, I think the Black Cloak Society should only be handled by Jansen.
That is to say, most villains in previous KQ games except for those already confirmed in KQ6 and possibly KQ5 (Roberta had said Manannan may possibly be a member), have nothing to do with the organization. Please.
Maybe toss in a bit of a classic mystery style story. So a kind of investigation is required. Shade doesn't necessarily have to be the leader (he probably isn't), he could just be another cultist in the ranks.
Ultimately the game ends with the destruction of the cult, or at least sets up for the hunt of the real leader in a later game.
I personally wouldn't mind Jane Jensen coming back to help with the ideas, or get it closer to the ideas as she originally envisioned. Unless her idea was for full series Legion of Doom, then I'd rather she stay away, as that's way too predictable.
I'd equally be fine (and prefer) with the ideas of stopping Shadrack in the confines of a standard KQ plot, just another wizard with a plan to take/over conquer a new land. The story could have very little information on the black cloaks except for a few cryptic references. Maybe explain a few more things but still leave the organization fairly open ended. While still avoiding the Legion of Doom cliche.
LOL, just a mere men's club, with no nefarious plans to conquer the entire world. Just individual wizards and magicians concerned with their own lands to conquer
Btw, i've expanded the informationon the canonical Society of the Black Cloak, within the article on the KQ wiki. I've added more information from the games and KQ companion. The new information added a discussion of hiearchy and modes of communication, as well as the correspondence between Shadrack and Alhazred.
Obviously AGDI's 'The Father', has no connection. It's also not very original, Roberta beat them to it!
Haha it is funny, yet i wouldn't be surprised if Jansen was heading in that direction. From reading the letters posted on the wiki site, it sounds as if Alhazred is merely giving Shadrack updated progress on his attempt in taking over the Crown. Being an evil wizard must be lonely, so having a club where other wizards share their evil plot with one another would be beneficial for them. It sure beats sharing the evil plot to the enemy before his/her demise. I think IA's version of KQ3 has Manannan visiting his brother to play chess and to talk about the Dragon.
I would love to see a canonical or a fan fiction game to depict the society as just social club. It would certainly be better than an evil organization with some grudge to the Daventry lineage. Prehaps having a fan game where Shadrack is writing letters to cat Manannan or to Alhazred. If the latter, the letters could be about Shadrack hearing of Alhazred's imprisonment. The letters could also imply that Shadrack is taking care of cat Manannan as a dying wish from Mordok. For instance, the letter could be something to the likes of "Dear Alhazred, I am sorry that your plans in taking over the Isles didn't go as planned. Cheer up! It is rare for anyone in our society to successfully take over a kingdom. At least you weren't turned into a cat like Manannan.
Speaking of Manannan, Mordok left me as sole guardian of his brother in his will. I am not too fond of removing fur from my furniture on a daily basis, but at least now I have a friend to talk to.
Have faith, brother of the cloak. I will come up with a plan to break you out of prison.
Your brother of the cloak,
Shade"
Wizard's Quest I: Rise of the Black Cloak!
The sequel could actually lead to your character finally having enough information to put his own plan into fruition!
Haha. That would be funny! We(as in the tt forum community) should make that game! We can even avoid all the copyright mumble jumbo by not mentioning any of the existing wizards by name. For example, Mananann can be Manny and Shadrack can be referred to his nickname "Shade."
The end twist could be that the main protagonist is really a long lost member of the Royal family. Haha.
Primarily the differences in who is involved.
The game making it primarily Alhazred's plan. It is "My" (from Alhazred's prespective); "My long preparations", "my power and my crown" (from Alhazred's) and "yours" (from Shadrack's POV); "your way", "your crown", "kingdom of yours"). Whereas the companion makes it both of their plans, "Our plans", though Shadrack acknowledges that Alhazred is doing most of the work!
I think one thing to take note, in the game, that Shadrack seems to acknowledge Mordack of being at least an equal to him, if not more (all though not so much in chess), as he calls him the 'great Mordack'.
From the Companion perspective he seems to treat Alhazred as a lesser to him. Noting that while he does compliment Alhazred a bit, at the same time he ribs him a bit by pointing out Alhazred's success at causing the islands to turn on each other, and eliminating the parents is a 'strategem worthy of even himself'.
I'm still not sure how much Mordack was involved in the plans... Was he fully in on it? Or did Alhazred (and/or Shadrack) just take advantage of Alhazred's friendship/insubordination to Mordack, in an attempt to get rid of a loose end. We know in both versions of the letter, the idea was at least Shadrack's idea to get rid of Cassima (...i.e. "recommended/advised").
Also Shadrack seems to see cassima as actively 'meddling' into his own plans in the Companion (whereas in the game, he seems to just warn that she could pose a threat to Alhazred if not dealt with).
Cousin (or evil Uncle) Ralphy, everyone calls him Bob... He could be Graham's long lost brother?
Ralphy is actually Larry Loveage's counterpart - I was looking for info on a street fighter porn parody after reading about it on one of the comments at Kotaku. However, i ended up finding info on a new LSL porn parody entitled "Leisure Suit Ralphy.".
Anyway, what goes with well with graham crackers? That should be Graham's long lost brother or sister's (to mirror Prince Alexander's and Princess Rosella's origin) name.
Smore? Marshmellow? Chocolate?
Saltine sounds good
He becomes the Captain known as Salty Bob...
In part 4, he is wisked away to another land where he has to aid a wicked witch in getting a unicorn. He is known as the salty horse.
Take this screen for example:
What's it's purpose? It's a crossroads between four other screens (2 outside, and 2 shops), and one NPC to talk to. Yet there are a ton of things which the examine cursor gives separate and unique responses for. Among some I may have missed, there are:
- the northern archway,
- the door of the bookstore,
- the door of the pawn shop,
- the bookstore sign,
- the pawn shop sign,
- the bookstore window,
- the pawn shop window,
- the bookstore building,
- the pawn shop building
- the shutters,
- the trees,
- the bookstore's second floor windows,
- the hanging red pants ,
- a villager when seen at a second floor window,
- the short fat pot,
- the tall thin vase,
- the short round pot on the box,
- the big box which has the pot on it,
- the gourd-shaped jugs,
- the lamp peddler,
- the lamp peddler's pole of lamps,
- the general vicinity,
- and Alexander, himself.
Now, I could have chosen to use the inside of the pawn shop as an example (as it surely has more to look at) but this particular screen--aside from having the lamp peddler and (eventually) the invisible ink bottle--is of no real consequence besides to get from one screen to another. The fact that it still has a bunch of different stuff to click on says something about the quality of Sierra's games, imo... and I've only listed what you can examine, and have not included what you can interact with using the other cursors.Yeah having a lot to look at, do, examine, etc was one of the best points of the KQ series. It adds replayability to the first 6 games, to go back and look at and listen to descriptions of stuff you never bothered with your first time around. I'd argue SQ did it better, though, at least SQ4.
KQ5 had nearly the same (5 or more things to look at, and a generic screen description ) it just wasn't implemented as nicely (don't look at the exact spot you might get a red x instead).
KQ1 remake also was the last of the KQ games with good amount of extra narration. Right clicking was similar to using eye cursor in that game. Though like KQ5 there are blank spots.
SQ4 unfortunately also has the same issue as in KQ5 with blank spots and red X.
Yes but with SQ4 you had the extra options of being able to taste and smell tons of things on any particular screen.
How was KQ1SCI the last to have a good amount of extra narration?
I actually don't mind the lack of a narrator in KQ7 btw. I consider the narrator a bonus, and as graphics were becoming more and more detailed, a narrator was becoming vestigial. I mean in 1984 when "graphics" were simple pixels, a narrator was a necessity because it gave you an idea of what these tiny pixels were supposed to be. But in 1994 when they were using SVGA graphics, a narrator really wasn't necessary and probably seemed a bit archaic.
I think the use of a narrator (along with the lack of action) would turn off potential new players who are used to modern games.
Both have less than KQ6.
KQ4 and earlier KQ titles have even less narrative.
The increased narration is a perk of KQ6. KQ5's world was more wider and more interesting and I'd have enjoyed more narrative boxes describing it.
If by narrator you mean a voice distinct from the character you're playing, I would agree. But I think one or the other is usually necessary to give feedback and other information, not always straight-up descriptions but just to add to the game's atmosphere, no matter how "modern" the game is. In fact I believe the idea of the voiceless protagonist works well in some cases, eg. Myst, but was adopted too widely for the good of the genre, as if there was some rule that the playable character in a first-person perspective game had to be silent. A good example is Sierra's Lighthouse, a game in which there is no pretense that you're playing yourself or a purposefully anonymous person -- I think it would have been a much better game if the character was speaking throughout. I guess I played too many Myst-clones I thought would have been a little less boring if I'd just had someone to talk to, LOL.
I suppose narration would work (in a modern game) if done differently. For example instead of a simple description of whatever you're looking at, IE, "Nestled among the woods sits the wizard Crispin's little house", it could be a description sort of from the character's POV--The character's take on what he/she is seeing, IE "Graham thinks that the wizard Crispin's house, while not a castle, is a charming, inviting little cottage." Something like that albeit better written.
EDIT: Ooh. I have another idea. KQ5, narrated by Cedric!
Some of those include the 'It's a poisonous snake"...
That's basically how the original King's Quest games did it, especially the first 3 (although it was more 'you think that blah blah'). Some of the ones in KQ5 (Graham thinks of his missing family as he stares at the little blue bird, blah blah) are also from that perspective...
Actually that's one of the reasons why I wanted KQ7 to have narration, just to give the player more insight from character's perspectives on what they thought they were seeing... You were stuck with just hotspots on what the characters 'found interesting', and that they offer a hint or clue that something else was needed...
Even Connor, tended to offer even more detailed descriptions of things that he saw, than the "I find this interesting' style comments that were all too common in KQ7... Not to mention if you turn on cheats, you could basically get a short description of nearly every item, character, place in the game!
Also narration often gives more insight into the culture, history, and other things in the lands... Without that it makes the story somewhat more dry... Especially if you want to know a little more about what you are seeing... Yes, it might be in greater hi-res detail, and I know what I'm seeing... But what else can we learn from it about local customs, history, etc.
Has anyone played Phoenix Wright/Ace Attorney series? Even that series while looking at things is optional (other than finding evidence), you can look at almost everything in the 'investigation' sequences in the game... There is often some interesting thoughts on what is seen.