Lamb is just being Lamb. Roll it off your back. But how was Thom rude?
You obviously never developed the same adventure puzzle sense that a lot of other adventure players have developed from playing classic adventure games. That's not a knock at you it's just the truth. But just because you had problems with puzzles doesn't mean everyone else did. I've said this already, but that's the simplest way I can put it.
Also, we're here because we once did like Telltale to a degree and were hoping they'd get better after time and practice working and refining their products within their business model. Instead they got worse and they're just churning out crap after crap gameplay experiences focusing more on story and cinematic camera angles. Which are all GREAT! But worth absolutely SQUAT if the gameplay is lacking. The puzzles are dirt easy and the games ridiculously short. Their business model was not made for me or for other classic adventure players and certainly not made with the KING'S QUEST game design style in mind, arguably the mother of all classic graphic adventures. King's Quest was always more about the gameplay experience than the story. I'm fairly certain they're going to screw it up and make it a shallow empty shell of what it once was, I don't care how good or bad the story is (I actually believe that Telltale has some skilled writers). I'm still here because I'm waiting to see just how King's Quest is going to turn out and if I'll be wrong. I seriously doubt it, though. And if it fails to meet my expectations I'm outta here. Honestly, if KQ wasn't on the horizon I'd already be gone after playing BTTF for the first time.
Perhaps we need a separate discussion for things like "what puzzles did you find overly complex?" or "what did you feel was easier than other parts?" Because apparently I have been unable to gleam this information from previous messages in this thread.
We've already had a nice handful of those threads. They all ended up in arguments because the Telltale fanboys who accept everything they throw at them can't accept or understand that some people want more challenge. Basically, even if we told you you wouldn't get it. Your side of the fence seems incapable of comprehending our reasoning of the issue.
Again, I'm not attempting to be insulting at all, I'm just relating my experience with this debate here in the past. That just seems to be the way it is.
I started with Infocom... and other early text adventures... (my cousin had an old Apple IIGS with a few of the games), and some others on a C64...
King's Quest V was the first Sierra adventure game I played I think (there might have been one other but I can't remember which)... I was playing with it with a friend at his house...
Those games were challenging...
KQ1-4 were easy in comparison when I got around to them... Dead Ends? Eh, not that bad, just restart from an early save... or restart completely if I was stupid enough to forget to save enough...
The games aren't really all that long, to get back to the point where you left off...
Eh, I think the story is often more important than the puzzles, in fact it's one of the reasons I have issues with some western RPGs because their storylines are spread so thin it's hard to keep interested. I'll always weigh how I felt about a game's storyline first and foremost, followed by gameplay. A good storyline can keep me interested if the gameplay isn't that great, and likewise a game that's really fun may hold my interest even without a good storyline, but I definitely put the storyline first most of the time.
And you're right, I probably didn't develop that adventure game puzzle sense. Not unlike how I don't have super sharp reflexes when it comes to "skill" games, nor do I have much "luck" in games where that's a factor.
In a sense, Roberta's notion of having the game replace the movie or the book is sometimes what I look for in a gaming experience, and it's why sometimes I prefer an easier game with a great storyline than a hard game with little narrative. When I replay games like Blazing Dragons, Discworld, LA Noire, and Gabriel Knight, I'm not necessarily doing it for a challenge or to test my puzzle solving, I'm playing them so I can enjoy the story, the characters, and the adventure.
It could just be that I have a different idea of what adventure means than others. Maybe that's why I don't really care if Telltale's games are a bit easy compared to stuff like Simon the Sorcerer and Curse of Monkey Island. I do enjoy solving puzzles and feeling good when I figure out a tricky one, but I don't really like being stuck on something for more than an hour (a puzzle, I mean, not a game). I just don't have the time to devote a whole day to figuring out what to do next in a given situation. I'd suspect that is true for a lot of people.
Doesn't mean I speed through, I certainly enjoy playing at my own leisurely pace.
You know, both you and Thom seem to be very rude. I know I was a bit rude in my original post in here but a lot of that was frustration at what I was reading lashing out.
...
What's your excuse?
I confess I am more than a little perplexed as to how to respond to a statement that includes both an apology and a demand for a reciprocal apology, and then concludes with such an antagonistic statement.
I apologize for my rudeness. I am always willing to agree to disagree on matters of opinion or perspective. But I refuse to accept that questioning the conclusions of arguments based on overstatement, flawed reasoning and, especially, mischaracterization of my views, is the equivalent of being rude.
In his first response to you Lamb explained quite reasonably that the views to which you were reacting in your initial post are not as extreme as you implied. In my second response I tried to demonstrate that they're not as inflexible as they might seem. I tried to clarify my position and posed some questions I hoped would encourage clarification of yours. But you have never directly addressed any of the points we've raised or given any indication that you're willing to consider anything except your own personal experiences. I don't know how you can expect to have rational communication -- whether discussion or argument -- on that basis. As such, I'll end my response here.
This is why Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert are gaming gods.
Thanks for linking that. I think I cried a little when Gilbert said, "I love crafting the puzzles," and Schafer said much the same later. It's a welcome change from hearing game designers talk about composing camera shots and creating dramatic tension.
Eh, I think the story is often more important than the puzzles, in fact it's one of the reasons I have issues with some western RPGs because their storylines are spread so thin it's hard to keep interested. I'll always weigh how I felt about a game's storyline first and foremost, followed by gameplay. A good storyline can keep me interested if the gameplay isn't that great, and likewise a game that's really fun may hold my interest even without a good storyline, but I definitely put the storyline first most of the time.
So, as long as Call of Duty has a great story you'd enjoy the game? What about Duke Nukem 3D? Or how about Tetris? Games are games for a reason. They are first and foremost about INTERACTIVITY. Otherwise it might as well be a movie. Watch a Let's Play. There's very little difference if all you care about is the story.
It could just be that I have a different idea of what adventure means than others.
Most definitely. And this is the biggest difference between those that love BTTF and JP by Telltale and those who don't and are dreading King's Quest, because King's Quest was never first and foremost about drama. Like it or not the original King's Quest games were designed the way they were and as such garnered a fan community who appreciates generally most of the design choices throughout the series. If Telltale "Telltale-ifies" it than it ceases to be what it was. We'd rather leave King's Quest dead. I really don't care about what goes on in Graham's mind and what emotional turmoil he's going through at a given moment in the game. I care about what goes on in my mind while playing the game. Roberta's mantra was always that YOU are the player. It matters how the game makes you feel in your interaction with it. That can be a fine line, granted, but the line is easily distinguishable by the fact that YOU are Graham, you don't merely CONTROL Graham, which is the approach Telltale takes.
I just don't have the time to devote a whole day to figuring out what to do next in a given situation. I'd suspect that is true for a lot of people.
Who says you have to figure it all out in one day? Spread it out. Leave the game and think about it and come back later. That's how they were meant to be played. No classic adventure was meant to be played through in one sitting. Like I said earlier, people have a problem with instant gratification. Ron and Tim brought this point out in the interview video very well.
Doesn't mean I speed through, I certainly enjoy playing at my own leisurely pace.
Thanks for linking that. I think I cried a little when Gilbert said, "I love crafting the puzzles," and Schafer said much the same later. It's a welcome change from hearing game designers talk about composing camera shots and creating dramatic tension.
There are some discussions within the movie industry that it might actually be dieing! Not alot of people going out to buy tickets anymore... Alot of big name movies are losing alot of money, or just breaking even...
The game industry might actually be surpassing the movie industry...
There are some discussions within the movie industry that it might actually be dieing! Not alot of people going out to buy tickets anymore... Alot of big name movies are losing alot of money, or just breaking even...
The game industry might actually be surpassing the movie industry...
That happens every once in a while though...People stop going to the movies generally, and then it restarts again. It's kinda cyclic.
I for one am not damning TT's game before it comes out. I think it will be good. At least give the game a chance before you see a screenshot. It's almost like some (embittered by their group not being given the license) want to kill the game before it's even out of the gate and ensure it's cancelled or given bad word of mouth. The people who have decided they're going to hate this game, and they know who they are, are truly bizarre in still posting here.
I for one am not damning TT's game before it comes out. I think it will be good. At least give the game a chance before you see a screenshot. It's almost like some (embittered by their group not being given the license) want to kill the game before it's even out of the gate and ensure it's cancelled or given bad word of mouth. The people who have decided they're going to hate this game, and they know who they are, are truly bizarre in still posting here.
Oh, good. More overstatement, faulty logic, and mischaracterization of others' views.
1. Nobody in this forum has the power to kill the game before it's out.
2. I am confident that my fellow adventure gamers will judge the game for themselves (as will I), even if I badmouth it from here to kingdom come.
3. Nobody hates a game that doesn't exist yet; we hate the design philosophy espoused by the company making the game.
4. I am not a member of any group involved in game development.
Oh, good. More overstatement, faulty logic, and mischaracterization of others' views.
1. Nobody in this forum has the power to kill the game before it's out.
2. I am confident that my fellow adventure gamers will judge the game for themselves (as will I), even if I badmouth it from here to kingdom come.
3. Nobody hates a game that doesn't exist yet; we hate the design philosophy espoused by the company making the game.
4. I am not a member of any group involved in game development.
My statement was not directed at you.
1) No, but if enough negative word of mouth is built up before the game's release, pressure could be applied to the point that cancelling the game seems better than risking it.
2) I think there is a large contingent of people who have already for the most part made up their minds about this game, given 1) Their feelings on TT and 2) That their team/group wasn't picked. They feel since they were involved in fan projects, THEIR GROUP and not TT deserved the license, and these people will do what they can to spread bad word of mouth before it's out to dampen enthusiasm and sales among less die hard fans.
3) I've seen a lot of negativity directed toward even the very concept of this game simply because of who is making it. It is odd. I doubt if an action game company were given the license that there would be this much hostility.
4) Again, was not directed at you.
1) No, but if enough negative word of mouth is built up before the game's release, pressure could be applied to the point that cancelling the game seems better than risking it.
2) I think there is a large contingent of people who have already for the most part made up their minds about this game, given 1) Their feelings on TT and 2) That their team/group wasn't picked. They feel since they were involved in fan projects, THEIR GROUP and not TT deserved the license, and these people will do what they can to spread bad word of mouth before it's out to dampen enthusiasm and sales among less die hard fans.
3) I've seen a lot of negativity directed toward even the very concept of this game simply because of who is making it. It is odd. I doubt if an action game company were given the license that there would be this much hostility.
4) Again, was not directed at you.
1. I seriously doubt that.
2. See 3 and 4.
3. I don't find that odd at all -- the negativity is directed toward the company, not a game that doesn't exist yet.
4. But I am a counter-example to your theory about motivations. If one person could arrive at these views without having any involvement in other game groups, you should consider that those who are involved might have arrived at their views independently of their involvement.
1. I seriously doubt that.
2. See 3 and 4.
3. I don't find that odd at all -- the negativity is directed toward the company, not a game that doesn't exist yet.
4. But I am a counter-example to your theory about motivations. If one person could arrive at these views without having any involvement in other game groups, you should consider that those who are involved might have arrived at their views independently of their involvement.
Oh, believe me, I understand that fan developer bitterness is not the cause of most peoples' unease. I have my own worries with regard to this game, but expect (and hope) for it to be good. I can understand totally arguments for why we should be worried, but I prefer to remain optimistic until we see at least a screenshot or a preview of the game.
But I do think that a least SOME (a loud minority, perhaps) of the complainers are complaining because TT (a company many seem to dislike to begin with) was picked over their group.
But I do think that a least SOME (a loud minority, perhaps) of the complainers are complaining because TT (a company many seem to dislike to begin with) was picked over their group.
You're entitled to think what you want about other people's motivations (I certainly have all kinds of ideas along those lines ), but speculating about them on public forums is only asking for pushback. It doesn't really matter what people's motivations are anyway -- they're not prohibited from posting their views (within forum rules), and their statements can be judged on their own merits.
Oh, and if Activision was looking for a reason to cancel this game, I hardly think they'd care about comments on this forum when all they'd need to do is read the reviews of Jurassic Park, ROTFL.
Despite the reviews, I don't think Jurassic Park lost money has it? Isn't Telltale still making a 'stealing' so to speak? These aren't high budget releases to begin with? Built upon a standardized and quickly modifiable engine...
When it all comes down to it, that's what business people want, the moolah...
But I do think that a least SOME (a loud minority, perhaps) of the complainers are complaining because TT (a company many seem to dislike to begin with) was picked over their group.
I certainly hope you're not referring to me. Especially considering I thought you knew full well that IA has never had any aspirations towards anything commercial with regards to Sierra IPs.
The only person who ever exhibited anything even approaching "license jealousy" was AGC2 on the AGDI forums, and that was quite some time ago. I don't even know if he's ever posted here.
Despite the reviews, I don't think Jurassic Park lost money has it?
I doubt it lost money; it's Jurassic Park after all. All I know is they were quick to post when BTTF became their best-selling game, but I haven't seen anything about JP so far.
Isn't Telltale still making a 'stealing' so to speak? These aren't high budget releases to begin with? Built upon a standardized and quickly modifiable engine...
When it all comes down to it, that's what business people want, the moolah...
But Activision would assess it not just for whether it was Telltale's most profitable game, but against some estimate of the possible profit a JP title could hypothetically generate. And I would have to guess that Telltale's JP didn't come anywhere near that.
Anakin, nobody here involved with a fangame group is upset at TTG for being picked over them, and even if they were saying that they hate the game for that reason that would be incredibly childish. I resent the insinuation you're making in this regard. I have my reservations about Telltale's games AS A WHOLE, not just King's Quest. I'm upset about King's Quest because it's incredibly more valuable to me than anything else Telltale would ever pick up (save for Space Quest) and stands to be damaged the most by Telltale's CURRENT business model and game design philosophy.
Yes, since I've spent some time in fangame development with people who have loved Sierra games all their lives and put all the attention, love, and dedication into doing the series justice then I of course have reservations and doubts about Telltale's ability to pull off something worthy of the King's Quest name. But it has absolutely nothing to do with Telltale being "picked over me or some other team". At all.
And if you're not talking about me either, my point still stands. You're assuming people are immature and childish in dealing with their feelings on this issue and you're bound to get a lot of pushback as Thom has said. It also makes you out to be incredibly condescending and snobbish. So stop it.
I'm just gonna drop out of this entire discussion. I've apologized multiple times yet it still doesn't seem good enough. It's pretty clear my opinions are unwelcome here. And apparently if someone has even the slightest trouble wording their sentences, it's going to be picked apart by somebody with far too much time on their hands.
I've got enough stress in my life without more being piled on by silly internet discussions with people aren't even trying to see things from my perspective or worse, couldn't care less about opinions that don't align with their own. If some of you can't accept that there are actually people 1) like Telltale's games, 2) thought the later KQ games were better than the earlier ones, and/or 3) that challenge isn't everything.. then I'm sorry but there's nothing I can do or say that'll make any difference.
Granted, some or all of those things may be inaccurate "generalizations" which I apparently make without realizing it. But you know what? I'm leaving this section altogether, so why not just go out the way I came in, I suppose. I tried to be nice after that first post but I guess nobody cares. I'm sorry to Baggins cause he was really fun to talk to and other had interesting insight and stuff, but I just don't want anymore of this. I don't want to feel like I have to constantly be on the defensive every gods-damned time I say something.
Hell, I'm in such a stirred up defensive "panic" cause I have issues with unnecessary confrontations, I'm pretty much saying whatever comes to my mind at this point. It was so bad the other day I couldn't even sleep. Gods, sometimes I wish I'd never found the internet..
I'm just gonna drop out of this entire discussion. I've apologized multiple times yet it still doesn't seem good enough. It's pretty clear my opinions are unwelcome here. And apparently if someone has even the slightest trouble wording their sentences, it's going to be picked apart by somebody with far too much time on their hands.
I've got enough stress in my life without more being piled on by silly internet discussions with people aren't even trying to see things from my perspective or worse, couldn't care less about opinions that don't align with their own. If some of you can't accept that there are actually people 1) like Telltale's games, 2) thought the later KQ games were better than the earlier ones, and/or 3) that challenge isn't everything.. then I'm sorry but there's nothing I can do or say that'll make any difference.
Granted, some or all of those things may be inaccurate "generalizations" which I apparently make without realizing it. But you know what? I'm leaving this section altogether, so why not just go out the way I came in, I suppose. I tried to be nice after that first post but I guess nobody cares. I'm sorry to Baggins cause he was really fun to talk to and other had interesting insight and stuff, but I just don't want anymore of this. I don't want to feel like I have to constantly be on the defensive every gods-damned time I say something.
Ah. And there we have it, folks. The old "reverse victimhood" troll. He's an elusive little bugger, isn't he? Note the telltale refusal to acknowledge the existence of reasonably explained counterpoints to his arguments, and the classic waiting until the conversation has moved on to drop back in and dramatically announce both victimhood status and ostentatious exit. Isn't nature grand?
When did anyone say that they didn't accept that people who like Telltale existed? I'm just going to speak my mind about what I believe. The only reason I'm talking about it here is because you asked and I'm trying to explain. That's all. No need to take anything personal. Nobody is being as hostile as you're making us out to be. We're just having a debate.
Hiroshi - you never said anything worht a damn the entire time you were here. Don't apologize to anyone for leaving, no one really cares.
There ya go lambonius, now your not the only dick.
And in regards to Anakin's statement that so many of us are pre-biased:
I sort of enjoyed the Sam N Max games. I found them short and easy, but it was nice to have some new Sam N Max after all those years. I happened to be a fan of strongbad's online site, so when that game came out I picked it up as well. By this time I was thinking that even though they aren't making my favorite type of adventure games, they are of decent enough quality to own. So I started blindly buying the seasons by preorder, and upgrading to the box set with all the little extras.
I continued that process until BttF arrived and I realized I had just paid $40 for a ridiculous cardboard box and every extra was some scrap of paper. A flux capacitor diagram? really? Someguy spent 2 minutes sketching out a flux capacitor and someone at Telltale deemed that good enough to throw in a box and charge extra cash for?
It became clear to me at this point they were selling special editions before they even knew what they were going to put in them. This doesn't even touch on my disappointment with the game itself.
But where it really falls apart for me is I could have downloaded the whole series for free on my playstation a few months back. Or bought it during their sale for $10. What a waste of my money.
So I sat out JP, and it looks like I'll be sitting out Walking Dead as well at this point even though I read all the comics and enjoy the show.
Based on this track record, why the hell should I, or anyone else, be giving ANYTHING at telltale the benefit of the doubt?
Blaming it on bitter fan game developers is just moronic, and frankly it blindly ignores the shortcomings of telltales recent track record.
When a company gets licenses to things I really enjoy, like Walking Dead nad King's Quest, yet at the same time can make me extremely leery of wanting to play them... well hell, that takes some real talent.
Hiroshi - you never said anything worht a damn the entire time you were here. Don't apologize to anyone for leaving, no one really cares.
There ya go lambonius, now your not the only dick.
And in regards to Anakin's statement that so many of us are pre-biased:
I sort of enjoyed the Sam N Max games. I found them short and easy, but it was nice to have some new Sam N Max after all those years. I happened to be a fan of strongbad's online site, so when that game came out I picked it up as well. By this time I was thinking that even though they aren't making my favorite type of adventure games, they are of decent enough quality to own. So I started blindly buying the seasons by preorder, and upgrading to the box set with all the little extras.
I continued that process until BttF arrived and I realized I had just paid $40 for a ridiculous cardboard box and every extra was some scrap of paper. A flux capacitor diagram? really? Someguy spent 2 minutes sketching out a flux capacitor and someone at Telltale deemed that good enough to throw in a box and charge extra cash for?
It became clear to me at this point they were selling special editions before they even knew what they were going to put in them. This doesn't even touch on my disappointment with the game itself.
But where it really falls apart for me is I could have downloaded the whole series for free on my playstation a few months back. Or bought it during their sale for $10. What a waste of my money.
So I sat out JP, and it looks like I'll be sitting out Walking Dead as well at this point even though I read all the comics and enjoy the show.
Based on this track record, why the hell should I, or anyone else, be giving ANYTHING at telltale the benefit of the doubt?
Blaming it on bitter fan game developers is just moronic, and frankly it blindly ignores the shortcomings of telltales recent track record.
When a company gets licenses to things I really enjoy, like Walking Dead nad King's Quest, yet at the same time can make me extremely leery of wanting to play them... well hell, that takes some real talent.
The question is then, if you're not willing to give the company or game the benefit of the doubt, why come here? If you've already pretty much made up your mind that the company sucks, or the game is going to suck, why stick around?
Yep. You know, I have some sympathy for people who think that arguments about ideas are the equivalent of personal attacks. My mother was like that. She'd have the same reaction to two adult relatives debating politics from opposite sides as she would to two children fighting over a toy. Conflict and confrontation -- she just couldn't have it.
But I don't know what I'm supposed to do when someone comes to a public discussion forum with an incredibly antagonistic diatribe and then refuses to address the individual points rationally, thinking that generic apologies obligate rivals to immediately concede. I tried to back off after an admittedly dickish bitchy response. But I don't see that I should just sit around and let repeated misrepresentations of my views go unanswered.
The question is then, if you're not willing to give the company or game the benefit of the doubt, why come here? If you've already pretty much made up your mind that the company sucks, or the game is going to suck, why stick around?
A: I never said the company sucked. I said their recent games have not been something I feel is worth my money.
B: Why I am here? Pretty simple. There aren't any other official Kings Quest games coming out. So like it or not, this is the place to talk about it. Also, I post here because some people on these boards are worth talking to and have interesting opinions (rather than simply making ridiculous posts every other day asking what flavor of ice cream sandwich is grahams favorite).
C: I'm not the one making ridiculous assumptions about why people aren't happy with the game. So far it seems your assumptions about why people here aren't excited about the game have been wrong.
If you don't like me or my opinions, good. I'm sure you'll loose your cool again and get banned again anyways.
Pretty sad when the telltale fanboy gets banned while those who are critical of the game's potential are doing just fine.
Next time you are looking for a topic to start, why not poll everyone on why they think the game is going to have problems. It would be a lot more productive then assuming we are all bitter fan game developers.
Yes, but that is just sort of your default state. Without the absence of dickery, can dickery really exist? :eek:
Though to be fair you are actually being fairly restrained in this thread as compared to others. Perhaps we are witnessing the birth of a new and gentler Lambonius.
The question is then, if you're not willing to give the company or game the benefit of the doubt, why come here? If you've already pretty much made up your mind that the company sucks, or the game is going to suck, why stick around?
You continually bring up this point every time this discussion comes up and it's annoying the gray matter straight out of my ear canals. I have said continuously to this point that if King's Quest by Telltale does not satisfy my expectations then I'm gone.
Besides that, I still have some friends and acquaintances here that I like to have interesting discussions with. And I still have hope that Telltale can turn around, which is why I choose to continually voice my opinions on the matter instead of just sitting there believing that they'll do a spectacular job without any evidence to the contrary at all, especially after their most recent track record. But King's Quest will be the final deciding factor here.
Despite what you think, game dev forums do not exist solely for fans to come and worship them and everything they do or say.
Eh, bitching or praising - at this point, either is useless because there's no game yet. Hell, there's not even a fucking screenshot, a shred of information about the game or story.... there's just a title and the fact that TellTale is supposedly developing a King's Quest game. Even that's up for grabs, because we haven't seen a thing!
Thanks, Lamb. Backatcha. Have you played Gemini Rue?
Have any of you played Ben There Dan That and it's excellent sequel Time Gentlemen Please?
It got bucket loads of humor and nods to LucasArts adventure games, multiple puzzles to tackle at the same time, inventory puzzles like they made in the days (the puzzles in the sequel are on par with the brilliant puzzle design of Day Of The Tentacle) and last but not least, you have five icons to interact with your surrounding and a unique response was written for every icon/hotspot possibility, plus several more for all items on items possibilities.
The first game is freeware, the sequel is sold for the lowly price of five bucks.
Have any of you played Ben There Dan That and it's excellent sequel Time Gentlemen Please?
No, I've seen these but wasn't crazy about the art style. If the gameplay is good and the story entertaining, though... I think I'll toss these in the cart the next time I make a purchase on Steam.
Then there’s King’s Quest. Obviously classic Sierra titles have big pull with fans of adventure games. What motivated that IP pick-up? Was it a move to really get back to the roots of where adventure games were born?
I think the LucasArts experience [that we had with Monkey Island] was a good one, so we thought it would be similar. It’s certainly got a lot of hardcore fans. We’re really just trying to get our brains around the stuff that’s currently the focus right now.
It sounds like they're still in the "research" phase, and no serious design work has been done yet.
There's also some interesting stuff in there about Telltale's views on game design and the notion of a "Telltale" genre distinct from the pure adventure genre.
I sort of enjoyed the Sam N Max games. I found them short and easy, but it was nice to have some new Sam N Max after all those years. I happened to be a fan of strongbad's online site, so when that game came out I picked it up as well. By this time I was thinking that even though they aren't making my favorite type of adventure games, they are of decent enough quality to own. So I started blindly buying the seasons by preorder, and upgrading to the box set with all the little extras.
I continued that process until BttF arrived and I realized I had just paid $40 for a ridiculous cardboard box and every extra was some scrap of paper. A flux capacitor diagram? really? Someguy spent 2 minutes sketching out a flux capacitor and someone at Telltale deemed that good enough to throw in a box and charge extra cash for?
It became clear to me at this point they were selling special editions before they even knew what they were going to put in them. This doesn't even touch on my disappointment with the game itself.
But where it really falls apart for me is I could have downloaded the whole series for free on my playstation a few months back. Or bought it during their sale for $10. What a waste of my money.
So I sat out JP, and it looks like I'll be sitting out Walking Dead as well at this point even though I read all the comics and enjoy the show.
Based on this track record, why the hell should I, or anyone else, be giving ANYTHING at telltale the benefit of the doubt?
Hang on, exo. I just re-read your post a couple of times, and it doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe you've already expressed your opinion elsewhere on this forum, but this post alone doesn't give me any reason to be wary of Telltale, except maybe buying their collectors boxes.
Your argument is basically this:
1. Sam & Max was okay -- not your preferred style, but still fun.
2. Strong Bad was okay -- not your preferred style, but still fun.
3. Back to the Future collector's edition didn't have any interesting extra material.
4. Later, Back to the Future was on sale, and by that point you had already bought it.
5. Therefore, Telltale should not be given the benefit of the doubt.
Did I miss something? You don't seem to have had any bad experience with the games themselves, just with the packaging and pricing. You had better get used to it: collectors editions often come with useless drawings, and games regularly go on sale and it's easy to miss them. Was there anything you actually disliked about the games?
I personally played Sam & Max, Strong Bad and Jurassic Park, and all of them were "okay" for me, but Back to the Future was absolutely brilliant in my opinion. So I am super hopeful for King's Quest.
Was there anything you actually disliked about the games?
At the risk of beating a dead horse, let me explain...
It's a matter of progression:
-- As TTG's production line has progressed, each successive game has had more and more bugs and and glitches--some annoying, some game-breaking.
-- Tales of Monkey Island often (and noticeably) uses the same four base character models for various characters.
-- Certain episodes of The Devil's Playhouse are notably (though, perhaps not annoyingly) easy.
-- Hector has ben said to have various problems in it's PC port (though I have not personally confirmed this), and TTG was responsible for the PC port.
-- Poker Night at the Inventory, though only a Texas Hold 'Em poker game, has extremely high hardware requirements to even get the game running at a reasonable graphics quality without making the mouse lag; it also had so many bugs at launch that TTG was forced to release a patch very shortly afterward.
-- BTTF's difficulty level is extremely low; has a hint system that, though it can be limited, can not be turned off entirely; has no ability to combine inventory items (meaning there are no puzzles that require doing so); the game gives you a choice of what name people should call you, but they don't always call you the correct one (which falls under "bugs" but since this is a story-driven game, it is extremely frequent); numbers of hotspots are very sparse, and exploration of the environment beyond driving the plot forward is extremely limited.
-- Jurassic Park is a QTE game, which is self-explanatory. Also, certain TTG employees were found, under the guise of average users, to have been spamming the Metacritic page for this game with numerous misleadingly-high ratings in an attempt to artificially inflate its perceived quality.
--The Walking Dead was first reported by TTG devs to be a QTE game; lately it seems that while it is no longer QTE-based, it is still slated to be different (ie. easier) than most adventure game fans would likely prefer:
The game is also really not about skill as a puzzle solver, though there are puzzles, too. The game's about exploring the story, and about making choices which have an impact on the people close to you. [...] there aren't that many deep mechanics, there is the story and the world and the characters to explore and figure out how they work, and overcoming obstacles in the narrative to advance.
In effect, there is no reason to suspect The Walking Dead as being any more difficult than BTTF.
On top of this, recent deluxe edition sets are sub-par: the TOMI Deluxe Edition includes a map which looks like a cropped screenshot printed on a restaurant cloth napkin, and a DVD slipcover that is mostly white with cardboard cutout-dolls printed on the back; and the BTTF deluxe edition is said to be worse (though I haven't investigated precisely why.)
So you can see why we are suspicious about decline in quality of TTG's products.
On top of this, recent deluxe edition sets are sub-par: the TOMI Deluxe Edition includes a map which looks like a cropped screenshot printed on a restaurant cloth napkin, and a DVD slipcover that is mostly white with cardboard cutout-dolls printed on the back; and the BTTF deluxe edition is said to be worse (though I haven't investigated precisely why.)
The Jurassic Park Deluxe Edition was pretty damned amazing. Way better than the ones for ToMI and BttF, and fancier and more ambitious than the Sam and Max case files. Way better than it had any right to be, considering the game it was for. Lots of really cool, believable props that seem to have fallen right out the world of the films, a really clever and creative "new InGen employee kit" theme, and nary a cheap, slapped-on logo in sight.
Except for that one huge, horrible thing with the shipping labels being slapped right onto the game box and mailing it as-is and not in another box, it was pretty great.
Comments
Lamb is just being Lamb. Roll it off your back. But how was Thom rude?
You obviously never developed the same adventure puzzle sense that a lot of other adventure players have developed from playing classic adventure games. That's not a knock at you it's just the truth. But just because you had problems with puzzles doesn't mean everyone else did. I've said this already, but that's the simplest way I can put it.
Also, we're here because we once did like Telltale to a degree and were hoping they'd get better after time and practice working and refining their products within their business model. Instead they got worse and they're just churning out crap after crap gameplay experiences focusing more on story and cinematic camera angles. Which are all GREAT! But worth absolutely SQUAT if the gameplay is lacking. The puzzles are dirt easy and the games ridiculously short. Their business model was not made for me or for other classic adventure players and certainly not made with the KING'S QUEST game design style in mind, arguably the mother of all classic graphic adventures. King's Quest was always more about the gameplay experience than the story. I'm fairly certain they're going to screw it up and make it a shallow empty shell of what it once was, I don't care how good or bad the story is (I actually believe that Telltale has some skilled writers). I'm still here because I'm waiting to see just how King's Quest is going to turn out and if I'll be wrong. I seriously doubt it, though. And if it fails to meet my expectations I'm outta here. Honestly, if KQ wasn't on the horizon I'd already be gone after playing BTTF for the first time.
We've already had a nice handful of those threads. They all ended up in arguments because the Telltale fanboys who accept everything they throw at them can't accept or understand that some people want more challenge. Basically, even if we told you you wouldn't get it. Your side of the fence seems incapable of comprehending our reasoning of the issue.
Again, I'm not attempting to be insulting at all, I'm just relating my experience with this debate here in the past. That just seems to be the way it is.
King's Quest V was the first Sierra adventure game I played I think (there might have been one other but I can't remember which)... I was playing with it with a friend at his house...
Those games were challenging...
KQ1-4 were easy in comparison when I got around to them... Dead Ends? Eh, not that bad, just restart from an early save... or restart completely if I was stupid enough to forget to save enough...
The games aren't really all that long, to get back to the point where you left off...
And you're right, I probably didn't develop that adventure game puzzle sense. Not unlike how I don't have super sharp reflexes when it comes to "skill" games, nor do I have much "luck" in games where that's a factor.
In a sense, Roberta's notion of having the game replace the movie or the book is sometimes what I look for in a gaming experience, and it's why sometimes I prefer an easier game with a great storyline than a hard game with little narrative. When I replay games like Blazing Dragons, Discworld, LA Noire, and Gabriel Knight, I'm not necessarily doing it for a challenge or to test my puzzle solving, I'm playing them so I can enjoy the story, the characters, and the adventure.
It could just be that I have a different idea of what adventure means than others. Maybe that's why I don't really care if Telltale's games are a bit easy compared to stuff like Simon the Sorcerer and Curse of Monkey Island. I do enjoy solving puzzles and feeling good when I figure out a tricky one, but I don't really like being stuck on something for more than an hour (a puzzle, I mean, not a game). I just don't have the time to devote a whole day to figuring out what to do next in a given situation. I'd suspect that is true for a lot of people.
Doesn't mean I speed through, I certainly enjoy playing at my own leisurely pace.
I confess I am more than a little perplexed as to how to respond to a statement that includes both an apology and a demand for a reciprocal apology, and then concludes with such an antagonistic statement.
I apologize for my rudeness. I am always willing to agree to disagree on matters of opinion or perspective. But I refuse to accept that questioning the conclusions of arguments based on overstatement, flawed reasoning and, especially, mischaracterization of my views, is the equivalent of being rude.
In his first response to you Lamb explained quite reasonably that the views to which you were reacting in your initial post are not as extreme as you implied. In my second response I tried to demonstrate that they're not as inflexible as they might seem. I tried to clarify my position and posed some questions I hoped would encourage clarification of yours. But you have never directly addressed any of the points we've raised or given any indication that you're willing to consider anything except your own personal experiences. I don't know how you can expect to have rational communication -- whether discussion or argument -- on that basis. As such, I'll end my response here.
Thanks for linking that.
So, as long as Call of Duty has a great story you'd enjoy the game? What about Duke Nukem 3D? Or how about Tetris? Games are games for a reason. They are first and foremost about INTERACTIVITY. Otherwise it might as well be a movie. Watch a Let's Play. There's very little difference if all you care about is the story.
Most definitely. And this is the biggest difference between those that love BTTF and JP by Telltale and those who don't and are dreading King's Quest, because King's Quest was never first and foremost about drama. Like it or not the original King's Quest games were designed the way they were and as such garnered a fan community who appreciates generally most of the design choices throughout the series. If Telltale "Telltale-ifies" it than it ceases to be what it was. We'd rather leave King's Quest dead. I really don't care about what goes on in Graham's mind and what emotional turmoil he's going through at a given moment in the game. I care about what goes on in my mind while playing the game. Roberta's mantra was always that YOU are the player. It matters how the game makes you feel in your interaction with it. That can be a fine line, granted, but the line is easily distinguishable by the fact that YOU are Graham, you don't merely CONTROL Graham, which is the approach Telltale takes.
Who says you have to figure it all out in one day? Spread it out. Leave the game and think about it and come back later. That's how they were meant to be played. No classic adventure was meant to be played through in one sitting. Like I said earlier, people have a problem with instant gratification. Ron and Tim brought this point out in the interview video very well.
So which is it?
No doubt!
The game industry might actually be surpassing the movie industry...
That happens every once in a while though...People stop going to the movies generally, and then it restarts again. It's kinda cyclic.
I for one am not damning TT's game before it comes out. I think it will be good. At least give the game a chance before you see a screenshot. It's almost like some (embittered by their group not being given the license) want to kill the game before it's even out of the gate and ensure it's cancelled or given bad word of mouth. The people who have decided they're going to hate this game, and they know who they are, are truly bizarre in still posting here.
Oh, good. More overstatement, faulty logic, and mischaracterization of others' views.
1. Nobody in this forum has the power to kill the game before it's out.
2. I am confident that my fellow adventure gamers will judge the game for themselves (as will I), even if I badmouth it from here to kingdom come.
3. Nobody hates a game that doesn't exist yet; we hate the design philosophy espoused by the company making the game.
4. I am not a member of any group involved in game development.
My statement was not directed at you.
1) No, but if enough negative word of mouth is built up before the game's release, pressure could be applied to the point that cancelling the game seems better than risking it.
2) I think there is a large contingent of people who have already for the most part made up their minds about this game, given 1) Their feelings on TT and 2) That their team/group wasn't picked. They feel since they were involved in fan projects, THEIR GROUP and not TT deserved the license, and these people will do what they can to spread bad word of mouth before it's out to dampen enthusiasm and sales among less die hard fans.
3) I've seen a lot of negativity directed toward even the very concept of this game simply because of who is making it. It is odd. I doubt if an action game company were given the license that there would be this much hostility.
4) Again, was not directed at you.
1. I seriously doubt that.
2. See 3 and 4.
3. I don't find that odd at all -- the negativity is directed toward the company, not a game that doesn't exist yet.
4. But I am a counter-example to your theory about motivations. If one person could arrive at these views without having any involvement in other game groups, you should consider that those who are involved might have arrived at their views independently of their involvement.
Oh, believe me, I understand that fan developer bitterness is not the cause of most peoples' unease. I have my own worries with regard to this game, but expect (and hope) for it to be good. I can understand totally arguments for why we should be worried, but I prefer to remain optimistic until we see at least a screenshot or a preview of the game.
But I do think that a least SOME (a loud minority, perhaps) of the complainers are complaining because TT (a company many seem to dislike to begin with) was picked over their group.
You're entitled to think what you want about other people's motivations (I certainly have all kinds of ideas along those lines
Oh, and if Activision was looking for a reason to cancel this game, I hardly think they'd care about comments on this forum when all they'd need to do is read the reviews of Jurassic Park, ROTFL.
When it all comes down to it, that's what business people want, the moolah...
I certainly hope you're not referring to me. Especially considering I thought you knew full well that IA has never had any aspirations towards anything commercial with regards to Sierra IPs.
The only person who ever exhibited anything even approaching "license jealousy" was AGC2 on the AGDI forums, and that was quite some time ago. I don't even know if he's ever posted here.
I doubt it lost money; it's Jurassic Park after all. All I know is they were quick to post when BTTF became their best-selling game, but I haven't seen anything about JP so far.
But Activision would assess it not just for whether it was Telltale's most profitable game, but against some estimate of the possible profit a JP title could hypothetically generate. And I would have to guess that Telltale's JP didn't come anywhere near that.
Anakin, nobody here involved with a fangame group is upset at TTG for being picked over them, and even if they were saying that they hate the game for that reason that would be incredibly childish. I resent the insinuation you're making in this regard. I have my reservations about Telltale's games AS A WHOLE, not just King's Quest. I'm upset about King's Quest because it's incredibly more valuable to me than anything else Telltale would ever pick up (save for Space Quest) and stands to be damaged the most by Telltale's CURRENT business model and game design philosophy.
Yes, since I've spent some time in fangame development with people who have loved Sierra games all their lives and put all the attention, love, and dedication into doing the series justice then I of course have reservations and doubts about Telltale's ability to pull off something worthy of the King's Quest name. But it has absolutely nothing to do with Telltale being "picked over me or some other team". At all.
And if you're not talking about me either, my point still stands. You're assuming people are immature and childish in dealing with their feelings on this issue and you're bound to get a lot of pushback as Thom has said. It also makes you out to be incredibly condescending and snobbish. So stop it.
I've got enough stress in my life without more being piled on by silly internet discussions with people aren't even trying to see things from my perspective or worse, couldn't care less about opinions that don't align with their own. If some of you can't accept that there are actually people 1) like Telltale's games, 2) thought the later KQ games were better than the earlier ones, and/or 3) that challenge isn't everything.. then I'm sorry but there's nothing I can do or say that'll make any difference.
Granted, some or all of those things may be inaccurate "generalizations" which I apparently make without realizing it. But you know what? I'm leaving this section altogether, so why not just go out the way I came in, I suppose. I tried to be nice after that first post but I guess nobody cares. I'm sorry to Baggins cause he was really fun to talk to and other had interesting insight and stuff, but I just don't want anymore of this. I don't want to feel like I have to constantly be on the defensive every gods-damned time I say something.
Hell, I'm in such a stirred up defensive "panic" cause I have issues with unnecessary confrontations, I'm pretty much saying whatever comes to my mind at this point. It was so bad the other day I couldn't even sleep. Gods, sometimes I wish I'd never found the internet..
Ah. And there we have it, folks. The old "reverse victimhood" troll. He's an elusive little bugger, isn't he? Note the telltale refusal to acknowledge the existence of reasonably explained counterpoints to his arguments, and the classic waiting until the conversation has moved on to drop back in and dramatically announce both victimhood status and ostentatious exit. Isn't nature grand?
Well, to be fair, I am kind of being a dick.
There ya go lambonius, now your not the only dick.
And in regards to Anakin's statement that so many of us are pre-biased:
I sort of enjoyed the Sam N Max games. I found them short and easy, but it was nice to have some new Sam N Max after all those years. I happened to be a fan of strongbad's online site, so when that game came out I picked it up as well. By this time I was thinking that even though they aren't making my favorite type of adventure games, they are of decent enough quality to own. So I started blindly buying the seasons by preorder, and upgrading to the box set with all the little extras.
I continued that process until BttF arrived and I realized I had just paid $40 for a ridiculous cardboard box and every extra was some scrap of paper. A flux capacitor diagram? really? Someguy spent 2 minutes sketching out a flux capacitor and someone at Telltale deemed that good enough to throw in a box and charge extra cash for?
It became clear to me at this point they were selling special editions before they even knew what they were going to put in them. This doesn't even touch on my disappointment with the game itself.
But where it really falls apart for me is I could have downloaded the whole series for free on my playstation a few months back. Or bought it during their sale for $10. What a waste of my money.
So I sat out JP, and it looks like I'll be sitting out Walking Dead as well at this point even though I read all the comics and enjoy the show.
Based on this track record, why the hell should I, or anyone else, be giving ANYTHING at telltale the benefit of the doubt?
Blaming it on bitter fan game developers is just moronic, and frankly it blindly ignores the shortcomings of telltales recent track record.
When a company gets licenses to things I really enjoy, like Walking Dead nad King's Quest, yet at the same time can make me extremely leery of wanting to play them... well hell, that takes some real talent.
The question is then, if you're not willing to give the company or game the benefit of the doubt, why come here? If you've already pretty much made up your mind that the company sucks, or the game is going to suck, why stick around?
Yep. You know, I have some sympathy for people who think that arguments about ideas are the equivalent of personal attacks. My mother was like that. She'd have the same reaction to two adult relatives debating politics from opposite sides as she would to two children fighting over a toy. Conflict and confrontation -- she just couldn't have it.
But I don't know what I'm supposed to do when someone comes to a public discussion forum with an incredibly antagonistic diatribe and then refuses to address the individual points rationally, thinking that generic apologies obligate rivals to immediately concede. I tried to back off after an admittedly dickish bitchy response. But I don't see that I should just sit around and let repeated misrepresentations of my views go unanswered.
Oh, well...
A: I never said the company sucked. I said their recent games have not been something I feel is worth my money.
B: Why I am here? Pretty simple. There aren't any other official Kings Quest games coming out. So like it or not, this is the place to talk about it. Also, I post here because some people on these boards are worth talking to and have interesting opinions (rather than simply making ridiculous posts every other day asking what flavor of ice cream sandwich is grahams favorite).
C: I'm not the one making ridiculous assumptions about why people aren't happy with the game. So far it seems your assumptions about why people here aren't excited about the game have been wrong.
Pretty sad when the telltale fanboy gets banned while those who are critical of the game's potential are doing just fine.
Next time you are looking for a topic to start, why not poll everyone on why they think the game is going to have problems. It would be a lot more productive then assuming we are all bitter fan game developers.
As opposed to its its most outspoken critics? Some who are quite vocal about their distrust of specific Telltale employees!
Yes, but that is just sort of your default state. Without the absence of dickery, can dickery really exist? :eek:
Though to be fair you are actually being fairly restrained in this thread as compared to others. Perhaps we are witnessing the birth of a new and gentler Lambonius.
You continually bring up this point every time this discussion comes up and it's annoying the gray matter straight out of my ear canals. I have said continuously to this point that if King's Quest by Telltale does not satisfy my expectations then I'm gone.
Besides that, I still have some friends and acquaintances here that I like to have interesting discussions with. And I still have hope that Telltale can turn around, which is why I choose to continually voice my opinions on the matter instead of just sitting there believing that they'll do a spectacular job without any evidence to the contrary at all, especially after their most recent track record. But King's Quest will be the final deciding factor here.
Despite what you think, game dev forums do not exist solely for fans to come and worship them and everything they do or say.
Eh, bitching or praising - at this point, either is useless because there's no game yet. Hell, there's not even a fucking screenshot, a shred of information about the game or story.... there's just a title and the fact that TellTale is supposedly developing a King's Quest game. Even that's up for grabs, because we haven't seen a thing!
Bt
Have any of you played Ben There Dan That and it's excellent sequel Time Gentlemen Please?
It got bucket loads of humor and nods to LucasArts adventure games, multiple puzzles to tackle at the same time, inventory puzzles like they made in the days (the puzzles in the sequel are on par with the brilliant puzzle design of Day Of The Tentacle) and last but not least, you have five icons to interact with your surrounding and a unique response was written for every icon/hotspot possibility, plus several more for all items on items possibilities.
The first game is freeware, the sequel is sold for the lowly price of five bucks.
No, I've seen these but wasn't crazy about the art style. If the gameplay is good and the story entertaining, though... I think I'll toss these in the cart the next time I make a purchase on Steam.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/discussing-the-walking-dead-fables-and-the-rebirth-of-adventure-games-with-telltales-ceo/
It sounds like they're still in the "research" phase, and no serious design work has been done yet.
There's also some interesting stuff in there about Telltale's views on game design and the notion of a "Telltale" genre distinct from the pure adventure genre.
You mean adventure games stripped of everything that made classic adventure games fun?
Bt
Hang on, exo. I just re-read your post a couple of times, and it doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe you've already expressed your opinion elsewhere on this forum, but this post alone doesn't give me any reason to be wary of Telltale, except maybe buying their collectors boxes.
Your argument is basically this:
1. Sam & Max was okay -- not your preferred style, but still fun.
2. Strong Bad was okay -- not your preferred style, but still fun.
3. Back to the Future collector's edition didn't have any interesting extra material.
4. Later, Back to the Future was on sale, and by that point you had already bought it.
5. Therefore, Telltale should not be given the benefit of the doubt.
Did I miss something? You don't seem to have had any bad experience with the games themselves, just with the packaging and pricing. You had better get used to it: collectors editions often come with useless drawings, and games regularly go on sale and it's easy to miss them. Was there anything you actually disliked about the games?
I personally played Sam & Max, Strong Bad and Jurassic Park, and all of them were "okay" for me, but Back to the Future was absolutely brilliant in my opinion. So I am super hopeful for King's Quest.
Yeah, that.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, let me explain...
It's a matter of progression:
-- As TTG's production line has progressed, each successive game has had more and more bugs and and glitches--some annoying, some game-breaking.
-- Tales of Monkey Island often (and noticeably) uses the same four base character models for various characters.
-- Certain episodes of The Devil's Playhouse are notably (though, perhaps not annoyingly) easy.
-- Hector has ben said to have various problems in it's PC port (though I have not personally confirmed this), and TTG was responsible for the PC port.
-- Poker Night at the Inventory, though only a Texas Hold 'Em poker game, has extremely high hardware requirements to even get the game running at a reasonable graphics quality without making the mouse lag; it also had so many bugs at launch that TTG was forced to release a patch very shortly afterward.
-- BTTF's difficulty level is extremely low; has a hint system that, though it can be limited, can not be turned off entirely; has no ability to combine inventory items (meaning there are no puzzles that require doing so); the game gives you a choice of what name people should call you, but they don't always call you the correct one (which falls under "bugs" but since this is a story-driven game, it is extremely frequent); numbers of hotspots are very sparse, and exploration of the environment beyond driving the plot forward is extremely limited.
-- Jurassic Park is a QTE game, which is self-explanatory. Also, certain TTG employees were found, under the guise of average users, to have been spamming the Metacritic page for this game with numerous misleadingly-high ratings in an attempt to artificially inflate its perceived quality.
--The Walking Dead was first reported by TTG devs to be a QTE game; lately it seems that while it is no longer QTE-based, it is still slated to be different (ie. easier) than most adventure game fans would likely prefer: In effect, there is no reason to suspect The Walking Dead as being any more difficult than BTTF.
On top of this, recent deluxe edition sets are sub-par: the TOMI Deluxe Edition includes a map which looks like a cropped screenshot printed on a restaurant cloth napkin, and a DVD slipcover that is mostly white with cardboard cutout-dolls printed on the back; and the BTTF deluxe edition is said to be worse (though I haven't investigated precisely why.)
So you can see why we are suspicious about decline in quality of TTG's products.
The Jurassic Park Deluxe Edition was pretty damned amazing. Way better than the ones for ToMI and BttF, and fancier and more ambitious than the Sam and Max case files. Way better than it had any right to be, considering the game it was for. Lots of really cool, believable props that seem to have fallen right out the world of the films, a really clever and creative "new InGen employee kit" theme, and nary a cheap, slapped-on logo in sight.
Except for that one huge, horrible thing with the shipping labels being slapped right onto the game box and mailing it as-is and not in another box, it was pretty great.