It's what puts you into the corner of either liking what KQ was pre 1992 (Simple, fun, fairy tale inspired), or liking KQ6 and everything that comes as a result of it: All of it's smaller universe, Father, Black Society "everything is tied together" crap. It's the game that opened the door for all of the fan fanfiction crapola.
Oh, so that's yooou sitting all the way over there in the corner. *waves*
Me, I'm milling around the vast open middle of the room liking all the KQ games (some more, some less, of course), feeling no need to choose between your two extremes, even though I have a preference toward one end.
I'd be willing to consider your criticisms of KQ6, even sarcastically/facetiously stated, but you go beyond plausible. I have to suspect that anyone who would call KQ6 "gritty" -- even in caricature -- doesn't really know from gritty. I don't even think of Gabriel Knight as gritty; dark, sure, but the GK stories were still fairly romanticized. (I only played the first two, so if the third was indeed dark and gritty, then ignore what I just said, LOL.)
And while I agree that some of the fanfiction is crapola, I really don't see why KQ6 should take heat for that. Blame the authors if it's crap.
KQ6 was totally fun and fairy tale inspired as much as any other King's Quest before it was. Also, I don't like a story TOO simple. KQ1 and KQ2, for instance, were way to simple. KQ3 was getting better but still could have been a lot more fleshed out. KQ4 is when it finally started getting there. KQ5 and KQ6 were the pinnacle.
Even KQ7 has that feeling of a great adventure/journey, the same as KQ5 has. And not only that, we get to experience TWO characters' journeys instead of just one! Yeah, some of the areas were visited twice over, but it was still interesting to see how the two of them finally ended up on the same path again. It just wasn't done nearly as well as KQ5. And the horrible animation was just annoying and distracting. So it lost points.
MOE had one of the best adventure premises of them all! So many areas and locales to visit! If it didn't have so much combat and contained more puzzles it'd be right up there with KQ5 for me. I still enjoy it, however. And more than KQ7.
MOE had one of the best adventure premises of them all!
See, this is where you lose me. If this is were true, then the premise and implementation are still so disparate from each other that I just can't come anywhere close to agreeing that MoE is a proper adventure (nor King's Quest) game.
I never said it was an adventure. I said it had great potential as an adventure PREMISE (as in the story set up). And I even explained it. You go on a journey to many different locations on this vast quest which culminates into a showdown with the most powerful nemesis the world of King's Quest has ever seen. If the game WAS developed as an adventure it would have been a great one. I'm not arguing that the implementation wasn't equally great. But it could have been. Just because it wasn't doesn't mean the potential wasn't there. That's all I'm saying.
It's what puts you into the corner of either liking what KQ was pre 1992 (Simple, fun, fairy tale inspired), or liking KQ6 and everything that comes as a result of it: All of it's smaller universe, Father, Black Society "everything is tied together" crap. It's the game that opened the door for all of the fan fanfiction crapola.
That would have happened even without King's Quest VI.
That would have happened even without King's Quest VI.
Not really. KQVI introduced the "Black Cloak Society" and "Shadrack". It introduced the slim possibility that all the villains and thus all the games could be tied together. That inclination made the KQ universe much smaller. It's like saying Darth Vader invented C-3PO or Boba Fett's father was killed by the Jedi or Greedo and Anakin Skywalker were friends as kids. It makes the game universe and all the potentials much more limited. Why does every bad event and character have to be tied together? Are there no villains who are just standalone villains? And the fans have run with the "Black Cloak Society/Shadrack was behind everything" idea ever since despite neither the BCS nor Shadrack even being mentioned in the last two games nor being part of Roberta's conception of the series.
Basically, KQ6 is a game that really isn't a Roberta Williams KQ. It had only a basic storyline provided by her with bare minimum oversight as she was on vacation in Spain for much of it's development. She didn't even know the idea of a Black Cloak Society or any organization like it had made it past idle discussion before she left for Spain. She didn't know it made it into the final game. When KQVI was in development, Roberta at first felt she was done with KQ, and wanted to only be a creative consultant.
KQ7 is credited to Lorelei Shannon, but Roberta was apparently working on both KQ7 and Phantas at once and also was the driving force behind the game's entire concept (two heroines, Disney direction, art direction, bringing Edgar back, etc). KQ8 despite corporate meddling was still enough of her vision that Roberta after negotiations put her name on it, because all the basic and important ingredients she wanted were there, just with some parts cut out for budget and time.
I just view KQ6 as "KQ meets Jane Jensen", similar to the way TT's KQ will be "TT meets KQ." Basically Jane Jensen's take on the KQ series. I don't like it just as some won't like TT's take on the series. If you want to be REALLY technical about it, KQ5 was the last "pure" KQ game in that it was the last KQ game which was a 100% Roberta product with no co-designer nor any executive meddling.
KQ5 was the last "pure" KQ game in that it was the last KQ game which was a 100% Roberta product with no co-designer nor any executive meddling.
By this standard, neither Empire Strikes Back, nor Return of the Jedi are "pure" Star Wars movies because they have different directors who are not George Lucas himself. Again, stupid.
edit: Also, My Little Pony:FiM isn't "pure" MLP; the new Thundercats show isn't pure ThunderCats; all Star Trek beyond what Rodenberry was directly (and only) involved in making is not "pure" Star Trek; and Curse of Monkey Island is not Monkey Island 3...
I could go on, but I think I made my point how stupid you are sound.
Why are you blaming fan-made games' additions on KQ6??
The fan-games would do whatever they wanted to "augment" the franchise for themselves, no matter what KQ6 had or had not introduced.
It's not like blaming the prequels on the Original Trilogy. It's like blaming the books on the Original Trilogy.
Oh, sure. Let's blame George Lucas because some author writes something preposterous in their books when Lucas had no part in writing it. Stupid.
By this standard, neither Empire Strikes Back, nor Return of the Jedi are "pure" Star Wars movies because they have different directors who are not George Lucas himself. Again, stupid.
edit: Also, My Little Pony:FiM isn't "pure" MLP; the new Thundercats show isn't pure ThunderCats; all Star Trek beyond what Rodenberry was directly (and only) involved in making is not "pure" Star Trek; and Curse of Monkey Island is not Monkey Island 3...
I could go on, but I think I made my point how stupid you are sound.
The whole concept of all the fan games is that every single game is tied tightly together via Shadrack/The Black Cloak Society. All of the fan games being of darker tone, with a more grounded storyline and smaller universe stems from KQ6's interpretation of the series in that it has a tighter storyline and is darker and has the conspiracy element with the Vizier and from the offhand mentions of Shadrack and the Black Cloak Society. It comes directly from there.
Also, It's not really stupid if you've ever read anything about how Star Wars was conceived. Originally George wanted Star Wars to be a fun, light sort of adventure serial--Like Flash Gordon. Nothing more or less. He thought the series could go on as a bunch of loosely connected adventures forever. He wrote and directed the first film, and it was a terrible, stressful experience, so he handed the writing and directing duties to others. Over the next few years, working with several writers, he came to realize he had painted himself into a corner with Luke's father and Vader. Having Luke's father be separate from Darth Vader became redundant from a narrative perspective, because in essence, Luke's father (before his father became Vader) was just another noble older Jedi. In the original script for Empire, you have Yoda teaching Luke with the ghosts of Obi Wan and his father aiding him. And he realized that was redundant and so created the dramatic twist of Vader being Father Skywalker.
The rest of the stuff he left up to the script writer and the director; He had a very hands off approach with Empire. Less so with Jedi but again he was forced into a corner. His original loose idea was for 12 films: The prequel trilogy, the middle trilogy (Luke's adventures) and a sequel trilogy. In the sixth film, Vader would be killed. In the prequel trilogy, the Emperor would be introduced and defeated and "The other" mentioned at the end of Empire Strikes Back would turn out to be another Jedi who was in hiding. Lucas realized he couldn't do twelve episodes. He was worn out, his marriage was collapsing, most of the principal actors were worn out, so he condensed the 12 movies into six and shoehorned Leia in as Luke's sister. She was NEVER intended to be his sister.
As to the other examples you gave, I don't watch any of them and never really could get into Monkey Island so I can't comment. I just think Roberta was the heart of KQ. The only person who I feel could take the reigns fully from her is Josh Mandel. Lorelei Shannon pretty much followed Roberta's direction to the letter so it's basically the same product we would've gotten anyway. I just don't like Jane Jensen's conception of KQ and I'm glad it only lasted for a single game.
Yes really. This crap happens all the time, every time, everywhere, in every universe that has fanboys and fangirls. Fans don't need a sliver of possibility to tie everything up, invent crackpot theories and get things wrong, they do it all the time, if you think otherwise, you clearly haven't visited enough fan communities.
I fucking hate this conversation.
So do I, and believe me, if I could poop a new screenshot or gameplay preview, I'd do it just for you. But I can't. Maybe it'd be better if we just remove this forums from our bookmarks and come back when the real news are posted.
How about we engage in some friendly thread sabotage?
The question is - If you derail a thread that was already derailed does that get it back on track? Not to be confused with two wrongs making a right however.
Yeah, I tried to thread sabotage this by getting it back on track, instead of this stupid, redundant debate about King's Quest VI, VII... yada yada......
I guess we've just speculated for over a year now, and I have absolutely no inkling as to how Tell Tale is going to proceed on this one. Will it be much like their own previous adventure games, or are they going to try something different with King's Quest?
Telltale aren't idiots, they know King's Quest's fanbase consist primarily of adventure games fan, not movies or TV fans and they'll give us that. Gameplay wise, I suspect it will be a lot like Tales of Monkey Island, with the possibility of dying.
I suspect a deeper gameplay might be possible if we talk less about Jurassic Park and Walking Dead and more about Tales Of Monkey Island, what it did right and wrong, what we'd like to see more of and what was missing from that game. Otherwise, I fear Telltale will settle for Tales gameplay rather than aim for the better gameplay of Secret of Monkey Island.
So yeah, from now on, more analysis of Tales Of Monkey Island, and less stupid debates about King's Quest VI, Jane Jensen, dead ends, Graham's jim jams color or which King's Quest has the stupidest puzzle. Time to enlighten Telltale about what made adventure games great, before they're done with The Walking Dead and start working on King's Quest. If we're lucky they'll work on Fable next and we'll have more time to steer their design in the right direction.
You'll end up getting a game with BTTF's game play and Jane Jensen inspired storytelling. Expect Mordack to be Graham's half brother or something and characters like Morgelien or whatever.
Jane Jensen storytelling doesn't bother me. But I think Telltale has enough sense not to go tying stuff together. They didn't do that with Tales or any of the other franchises. That's not their problem.
So yeah, from now on, more analysis of Tales Of Monkey Island, and less stupid debates about King's Quest VI, Jane Jensen, dead ends, Graham's jim jams color or which King's Quest has the stupidest puzzle. Time to enlighten Telltale about what made adventure games great, before they're done with The Walking Dead and start working on King's Quest. If we're lucky they'll work on Fable next and we'll have more time to steer their design in the right direction.
I had a post but I'm not sure what happened to it. Here it is again.
I'm sorry, but none of those games (TMI or SMI) match King's Quest's style at all. I hope it's nothing like Tales. Basically, I'm hoping that King's Quest will be different from everything they've done so far.
What TMI did that wouldn't match King's Quest:
An extreme overuse of conversation puzzles
Lack of dying
Extreme overdose of Telltale-style humourous dialogue (which most of the time isn't really that funny). King's Quest is not a comedy
Exaggerated caricature style character design (though I suspect we'll get this regardless)
Not enough locales
Easy-peasy puzzles
Annoying hint system (we're getting this either way)
A world that's completely safe and not dangerous (to your life or game progress) at all. For instance, the dwarf in KQ2. He could steal your equipment and slow you down, you could always get your stuff back again, however, by raiding his chest in his house.
Too much talking (exposition, story, character/plot development), not enough puzzle solving
Not enough wide shots to explore everything in a given game "room"/Too much "cinematic camera angles"
Too short.
Also, I think we can safely assume that King's Quest will be coming last and we'll be seeing Fables after Walking Dead.
Time to enlighten Telltale about what made adventure games great, before they're done with The Walking Dead and start working on King's Quest. If we're lucky they'll work on Fable next and we'll have more time to steer their design in the right direction.
To be fair, we have had several threads along those lines. But I'm up for talking about it again and will look up my previous posts and think some more before writing. I do agree with MI, though, that Tales might not be the best jumping off point.
Jane Jensen storytelling doesn't bother me. But I think Telltale has enough sense not to go tying stuff together. They didn't do that with Tales or any of the other franchises. That's not their problem.
Also, stop trolling.
We have nothing else to talk about besides:
1) The possibility that TT's KQ will either be great, good, mediocre or horrible.
2) That TT's games are very different from Sierra's games, and many feel that TT's style is not compatible with KQ.
We have not seen a screenshot, or a piece of concept art, or a trailer, or ANYTHING for this game. As of now, it's an utterly unknown quantity. A phantom game for all intents and purposes. As such, I just enjoy talking about the KQ games that DO exist. There's only so many ways one can say: "Don't make the KQ game like BTTF or Jurassic Park". Granted, the same could well be said for me talking about KQ6...But when you have literally nothing new or of substance to talk about, the conversation can tend to go around in circles.
It tends to go around in circles if you don't regulate yourself. And you don't enjoy talking about KQ games. You enjoy berating the ones you hate. Why don't you ACTUALLY talk about the ones you like?
I suspect a deeper gameplay might be possible if we talk less about Jurassic Park and Walking Dead and more about Tales Of Monkey Island, what it did right and wrong, what we'd like to see more of and what was missing from that game. Otherwise, I fear Telltale will settle for Tales gameplay rather than aim for the better gameplay of Secret of Monkey Island.
So yeah, from now on, more analysis of Tales Of Monkey Island, and less stupid debates about King's Quest VI, Jane Jensen, dead ends, Graham's jim jams color or which King's Quest has the stupidest puzzle. Time to enlighten Telltale about what made adventure games great, before they're done with The Walking Dead and start working on King's Quest. If we're lucky they'll work on Fable next and we'll have more time to steer their design in the right direction.
You'll end up getting a game with BTTF's game play and Jane Jensen inspired storytelling. Expect Mordack to be Graham's half brother or something and characters like Morgelien or whatever.
Would you shut up about this? KQ6 did not "open the door" for the plot devices the fan-games made. The Society of the Black Cloak was only given one mention in that game, and it was only on an inventory item that showed proof that Cassima was in danger. That's it. If you hate the fan games, then you do. Now, stop bitching about KQ6, and start talking about something productive toward making TTG's game better (as blueskirt suggested.)
To be fair, we have had several threads along those lines. But I'm up for talking about it again and will look up my previous posts and think some more before writing. I do agree with MI, though, that Tales might not be the best jumping off point.
I know but since Jurassic Park, these kind of convos somewhat turned into "Don't make King's Quest an interactive movie". And realistically, I think Tales is most likely where Telltale will start when they'll design the gameplay of King's Quest.
You mean characters from the fan games that had nothing to do with Jane Jensen?
Society of the Black Cloak was only given one mention in that game, and it was only on an inventory item that showed proof that Cassima was in danger. That's it.
Actually three mentions... An inventory item found in Alhazred's bedroom, overhearing a letter being written Alhazred in his study, and a cryptic mention by the Oracle...
KQ5 is my favorite KQ game and if TT's KQ has the same adventurous, journey-type feel, with that charm and magic that seems to appeal to all ages, I'll love it. I don't mind dead ends or even "Moon Logic" puzzles; It actually makes the game all the more challenging, and thus, for me, stimulating and fun.
I want a game that has a simplistic, but not utterly vague storyline (IE, KQ5's plot is to the point and moves with a good flow, whereas KQ1 pretty much has nothing in the way of a story besides the overarching plot of finding the Treasures). I want colorful characters and I want cheesy-ness and cheesy puns (King Anthony the Great, Queen Icebella).
I want Graham to be the protagonist.
I would love a return to more of a fairy tale inspired atmosphere, with lots of very very different mythological and fairy tale characters and creatures thrown in the mix together. I want a sense of urgency that wasn't present in any game but KQ4. I want creatures to pop out of nowhere trying to get you and you have to escape off screen. I want some of the Occult/Lovecraft influence present in KQ5 in Mordack's Castle.
I want a large, very open world, that by the end of the game you feel like you've been on a long journey. But I want areas which are titillating to the eyes, but areas which you can never reach (IE the tiny islands in KQ5, or the village by the Roc's nest in KQ5--Areas which look interesting which have nothing to do with the game).
I want the ability to die, and I want funny deaths. I don't want the gameplay to feel locked in or repetitive as it does in Back to the Future. I don't want to have to keep coming back to the same areas over and over. Once one area or land has no further use, it should be left behind.
I don't want any hint system or any hand holding. I want to be stumped--I don't want the game to guide me to the right conclusion, I want to reach it myself.
I'd love a game that would take all the best parts of KQ1SCI, KQ5 and KQ7 and put them together, with something of a more Arthurian plot ala KQ8--but done with the tone and formant of KQ5-7. Basically, what KQ8 could've been if it had remained faithful to the series' "rules".
I know but since Jurassic Park, these kind of convos somewhat turned into "Don't make King's Quest an interactive movie". And realistically, I think Tales is most likely where Telltale will start when they'll design the gameplay of King's Quest.
A question: Can an "interactive movie" be done where it is still challenging? Where it is an equal balance of "Movie" and "Game"? I always thought the idea of a '90s Sierra style Interactive Movie KQ (but with animation, not live actors at all) could be interesting, if it was challenging.
I'm sorry, but none of those games (TMI or SMI) match King's Quest's style at all. I hope it's nothing like Tales. Basically, I'm hoping that King's Quest will be different from everything they've done so far.
What TMI did that wouldn't match King's Quest:
An extreme overuse of conversation puzzles
Lack of dying
Extreme overdose of Telltale-style humourous dialogue (which most of the time isn't really that funny). King's Quest is not a comedy
Exaggerated caricature style character design (though I suspect we'll get this regardless)
Not enough locales
Easy-peasy puzzles
Annoying hint system (we're getting this either way)
A world that's completely safe and not dangerous (to your life or game progress) at all. For instance, the dwarf in KQ2. He could steal your equipment and slow you down, you could always get your stuff back again, however, by raiding his chest in his house.
Too much talking (exposition, story, character/plot development), not enough puzzle solving
Not enough wide shots to explore everything in a given game "room"/Too much "cinematic camera angles"
Too short.
Good list.
I've been thinking, however, about it being "too short." Now, I know that time played during a single playthrough is significantly shorter when one already knows the solutions to puzzles, and I haven't exactly timed myself lately, but I'm not sure the time it takes to beat KQ4, 5 or 6 is that much longer (or shorter) than the time it takes to beat Tales.
I'm not arguing your other points. I do think that Tales didn't have enough to interact with; too much dialogue and not enough puzzles; and caricature character models.
One thing about KQ games that I'm not sure how TTG can replicate is the variation between sizes of different areas. What I mean is, the starting area of KQ5 and 3 are the largest explorable areas of those games, and I'm not sure how that could be replicated in an episodic game series.
I want cheesy-ness and cheesy puns (King Anthony the Great, Queen Icebella).
I know there are cheesy moments in KQ games, but I really detested the ant and bee characters in that game, and ESPECIALLY the dumb ant song while they search for the needle.
I don't want to have to keep coming back to the same areas over and over. Once one area or land has no further use, it should be left behind.
I'm not sure about the implementation of this. in KQ3 you spend most of the game in Llewdor; in KQ4 you spend the whole game on Tamir, with the time of day changing; in KQ5, the largest explorable area is the open area of Serenia before passing the snake.
I know but since Jurassic Park, these kind of convos somewhat turned into "Don't make King's Quest an interactive movie". And realistically, I think Tales is most likely where Telltale will start when they'll design the gameplay of King's Quest.
They've turned into that because not everybody agrees with your delineation of what's realistic. I have a different opinion on that. I can't just accept someone imposing an arbitrary assumption and suggesting that conversation has to be confined to what follows from it when I believe there are important issues arising from debate on the assumption itself. It's hard to avoid these kinds of problems in forums when people think what's self-obvious to them should be self-obvious to everyone else. No matter how self-obvious it is.
---
Back to the current sub-topic...
First and foremost, I want multiple modes of interaction -- look, touch, talk, etc. I don't really care how it's implemented, a row of icons at the top, cursor-cycling, a popup menu, whatever.
I agree with most everything Anakin said. Except I would not say I want the plot to be "simplistic". I would rather say simple, as in non-convoluted, but I have no problem with the idea that a KQ plot could be as detailed as KQ6's. Not only should the gameplay genre be adventure but so should the fictional genre -- as others have said, a journey or quest, with no psychological drama.
I agree with Chyron that cheesiness taken too far is not a good thing.
Not enough wide shots to explore everything in a given game "room"/Too much "cinematic camera angles"
This is an interesting issue I'd like to talk about more, except I'm not exactly sure what I want to say . If I could untangle my own thinking on it and write something coherent, maybe I'll do it as a new thread.
I wouldn't even consider KQ7 as the same tone and format of KQ4-6 (and KQ1 remake)... KQ4 is loosely same tone and format as the later 2 games... When the series started to turn more serious, more dramatic, and had less humor (though the humor in the narrative dialogue is still there, but to a lesser degree than previous games)...
KQ7 was more over the top, and silly...
KQ8 moved back more towards the more serious/dramatic style of KQ4-6 (and KQ1 remake)... But went out of its way to add things the series was not previously known for...
Musically, I was thinking of Morowyn, the Wizard from The Floating Castle... Was obviously tired and misread his post, and typed that, LOL...
Too many wizards starting with the "Mor" title ...
However, my point still stands... I don't consider the The Father (who in this case originates out of a Fan Game) to have anything to do with Jane Jensen... Anymore than I would blame her for any characters from the novels (although KQ6 did inspire the The Floating Castle artwork)!
KQ8 moved back more towards the more serious/dramatic style of KQ4-6 (and KQ1 remake)... But went out of its way to add things the series was not previously known for...
KQ3 wasn't serious or dramatic? The whole game is basically Gwydion escaping from Mannannan and trying to get home. Sure we got a few light hearted moments, but most of the game is pretty determined.
Techie, the idea was serious, but pay attention to the narration. There are alot of break the fourth wall style humor in it. Very silly stuff... It was also the last of the games to play the narration as 'you as the character'. 2nd Person narration..., and later games pushed more towards more of a 3rd Person style of narration.
Look at some of the stuff said during the few conversations... Incuding the whole 'tattoo' remark, or the 'twincest' comments (milky white skin, sweeet cherry lips, bountiful assets, you'd kiss/date her if she wasn't your sister")!
For all intents and purposes the game has a relatively bright and cheery artstyle, and atmosphere throughout...
Comments
Oh, so that's yooou sitting all the way over there in the corner. *waves*
Me, I'm milling around the vast open middle of the room liking all the KQ games (some more, some less, of course), feeling no need to choose between your two extremes, even though I have a preference toward one end.
I'd be willing to consider your criticisms of KQ6, even sarcastically/facetiously stated, but you go beyond plausible. I have to suspect that anyone who would call KQ6 "gritty" -- even in caricature -- doesn't really know from gritty. I don't even think of Gabriel Knight as gritty; dark, sure, but the GK stories were still fairly romanticized. (I only played the first two, so if the third was indeed dark and gritty, then ignore what I just said, LOL.)
And while I agree that some of the fanfiction is crapola, I really don't see why KQ6 should take heat for that. Blame the authors if it's crap.
Even KQ7 has that feeling of a great adventure/journey, the same as KQ5 has. And not only that, we get to experience TWO characters' journeys instead of just one! Yeah, some of the areas were visited twice over, but it was still interesting to see how the two of them finally ended up on the same path again. It just wasn't done nearly as well as KQ5. And the horrible animation was just annoying and distracting. So it lost points.
MOE had one of the best adventure premises of them all! So many areas and locales to visit! If it didn't have so much combat and contained more puzzles it'd be right up there with KQ5 for me. I still enjoy it, however. And more than KQ7.
See, this is where you lose me. If this is were true, then the premise and implementation are still so disparate from each other that I just can't come anywhere close to agreeing that MoE is a proper adventure (nor King's Quest) game.
That would have happened even without King's Quest VI.
Bt
Not really. KQVI introduced the "Black Cloak Society" and "Shadrack". It introduced the slim possibility that all the villains and thus all the games could be tied together. That inclination made the KQ universe much smaller. It's like saying Darth Vader invented C-3PO or Boba Fett's father was killed by the Jedi or Greedo and Anakin Skywalker were friends as kids. It makes the game universe and all the potentials much more limited. Why does every bad event and character have to be tied together? Are there no villains who are just standalone villains? And the fans have run with the "Black Cloak Society/Shadrack was behind everything" idea ever since despite neither the BCS nor Shadrack even being mentioned in the last two games nor being part of Roberta's conception of the series.
Basically, KQ6 is a game that really isn't a Roberta Williams KQ. It had only a basic storyline provided by her with bare minimum oversight as she was on vacation in Spain for much of it's development. She didn't even know the idea of a Black Cloak Society or any organization like it had made it past idle discussion before she left for Spain. She didn't know it made it into the final game. When KQVI was in development, Roberta at first felt she was done with KQ, and wanted to only be a creative consultant.
KQ7 is credited to Lorelei Shannon, but Roberta was apparently working on both KQ7 and Phantas at once and also was the driving force behind the game's entire concept (two heroines, Disney direction, art direction, bringing Edgar back, etc). KQ8 despite corporate meddling was still enough of her vision that Roberta after negotiations put her name on it, because all the basic and important ingredients she wanted were there, just with some parts cut out for budget and time.
I just view KQ6 as "KQ meets Jane Jensen", similar to the way TT's KQ will be "TT meets KQ." Basically Jane Jensen's take on the KQ series. I don't like it just as some won't like TT's take on the series. If you want to be REALLY technical about it, KQ5 was the last "pure" KQ game in that it was the last KQ game which was a 100% Roberta product with no co-designer nor any executive meddling.
The fan-games would do whatever they wanted to "augment" the franchise for themselves, no matter what KQ6 had or had not introduced.
It's not like blaming the prequels on the Original Trilogy. It's like blaming the books on the Original Trilogy.
Oh, sure. Let's blame George Lucas because some author writes something preposterous in their books when Lucas had no part in writing it. Stupid.
By this standard, neither Empire Strikes Back, nor Return of the Jedi are "pure" Star Wars movies because they have different directors who are not George Lucas himself. Again, stupid.
edit: Also, My Little Pony:FiM isn't "pure" MLP; the new Thundercats show isn't pure ThunderCats; all Star Trek beyond what Rodenberry was directly (and only) involved in making is not "pure" Star Trek; and Curse of Monkey Island is not Monkey Island 3...
I could go on, but I think I made my point how stupid you are sound.
BALLS.
How about we engage in some friendly thread sabotage?
The whole concept of all the fan games is that every single game is tied tightly together via Shadrack/The Black Cloak Society. All of the fan games being of darker tone, with a more grounded storyline and smaller universe stems from KQ6's interpretation of the series in that it has a tighter storyline and is darker and has the conspiracy element with the Vizier and from the offhand mentions of Shadrack and the Black Cloak Society. It comes directly from there.
Also, It's not really stupid if you've ever read anything about how Star Wars was conceived. Originally George wanted Star Wars to be a fun, light sort of adventure serial--Like Flash Gordon. Nothing more or less. He thought the series could go on as a bunch of loosely connected adventures forever. He wrote and directed the first film, and it was a terrible, stressful experience, so he handed the writing and directing duties to others. Over the next few years, working with several writers, he came to realize he had painted himself into a corner with Luke's father and Vader. Having Luke's father be separate from Darth Vader became redundant from a narrative perspective, because in essence, Luke's father (before his father became Vader) was just another noble older Jedi. In the original script for Empire, you have Yoda teaching Luke with the ghosts of Obi Wan and his father aiding him. And he realized that was redundant and so created the dramatic twist of Vader being Father Skywalker.
The rest of the stuff he left up to the script writer and the director; He had a very hands off approach with Empire. Less so with Jedi but again he was forced into a corner. His original loose idea was for 12 films: The prequel trilogy, the middle trilogy (Luke's adventures) and a sequel trilogy. In the sixth film, Vader would be killed. In the prequel trilogy, the Emperor would be introduced and defeated and "The other" mentioned at the end of Empire Strikes Back would turn out to be another Jedi who was in hiding. Lucas realized he couldn't do twelve episodes. He was worn out, his marriage was collapsing, most of the principal actors were worn out, so he condensed the 12 movies into six and shoehorned Leia in as Luke's sister. She was NEVER intended to be his sister.
As to the other examples you gave, I don't watch any of them and never really could get into Monkey Island so I can't comment. I just think Roberta was the heart of KQ. The only person who I feel could take the reigns fully from her is Josh Mandel. Lorelei Shannon pretty much followed Roberta's direction to the letter so it's basically the same product we would've gotten anyway. I just don't like Jane Jensen's conception of KQ and I'm glad it only lasted for a single game.
Yes really. This crap happens all the time, every time, everywhere, in every universe that has fanboys and fangirls. Fans don't need a sliver of possibility to tie everything up, invent crackpot theories and get things wrong, they do it all the time, if you think otherwise, you clearly haven't visited enough fan communities.
So do I, and believe me, if I could poop a new screenshot or gameplay preview, I'd do it just for you. But I can't. Maybe it'd be better if we just remove this forums from our bookmarks and come back when the real news are posted.
The question is - If you derail a thread that was already derailed does that get it back on track? Not to be confused with two wrongs making a right however.
lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swine_influenza
Yeah, I tried to thread sabotage this by getting it back on track, instead of this stupid, redundant debate about King's Quest VI, VII... yada yada......
I guess we've just speculated for over a year now, and I have absolutely no inkling as to how Tell Tale is going to proceed on this one. Will it be much like their own previous adventure games, or are they going to try something different with King's Quest?
I just don't know, and it's driving me bonkers.
Bt
I suspect a deeper gameplay might be possible if we talk less about Jurassic Park and Walking Dead and more about Tales Of Monkey Island, what it did right and wrong, what we'd like to see more of and what was missing from that game. Otherwise, I fear Telltale will settle for Tales gameplay rather than aim for the better gameplay of Secret of Monkey Island.
So yeah, from now on, more analysis of Tales Of Monkey Island, and less stupid debates about King's Quest VI, Jane Jensen, dead ends, Graham's jim jams color or which King's Quest has the stupidest puzzle. Time to enlighten Telltale about what made adventure games great, before they're done with The Walking Dead and start working on King's Quest. If we're lucky they'll work on Fable next and we'll have more time to steer their design in the right direction.
Also, stop trolling.
I had a post but I'm not sure what happened to it. Here it is again.
I'm sorry, but none of those games (TMI or SMI) match King's Quest's style at all. I hope it's nothing like Tales. Basically, I'm hoping that King's Quest will be different from everything they've done so far.
What TMI did that wouldn't match King's Quest:
Also, I think we can safely assume that King's Quest will be coming last and we'll be seeing Fables after Walking Dead.
To be fair, we have had several threads along those lines. But I'm up for talking about it again
We have nothing else to talk about besides:
1) The possibility that TT's KQ will either be great, good, mediocre or horrible.
2) That TT's games are very different from Sierra's games, and many feel that TT's style is not compatible with KQ.
We have not seen a screenshot, or a piece of concept art, or a trailer, or ANYTHING for this game. As of now, it's an utterly unknown quantity. A phantom game for all intents and purposes. As such, I just enjoy talking about the KQ games that DO exist. There's only so many ways one can say: "Don't make the KQ game like BTTF or Jurassic Park". Granted, the same could well be said for me talking about KQ6...But when you have literally nothing new or of substance to talk about, the conversation can tend to go around in circles.
This sounds like a wonderful idea. I like it.
Would you shut up about this? KQ6 did not "open the door" for the plot devices the fan-games made. The Society of the Black Cloak was only given one mention in that game, and it was only on an inventory item that showed proof that Cassima was in danger. That's it. If you hate the fan games, then you do. Now, stop bitching about KQ6, and start talking about something productive toward making TTG's game better (as blueskirt suggested.)
Best advice I heard all day.
Keeping my eye on this thread. Be nice, Anakin.
...or I'll send Obi-Wan to get you
I know but since Jurassic Park, these kind of convos somewhat turned into "Don't make King's Quest an interactive movie". And realistically, I think Tales is most likely where Telltale will start when they'll design the gameplay of King's Quest.
You mean characters from the fan games that had nothing to do with Jane Jensen?
Actually three mentions... An inventory item found in Alhazred's bedroom, overhearing a letter being written Alhazred in his study, and a cryptic mention by the Oracle...
I want a game that has a simplistic, but not utterly vague storyline (IE, KQ5's plot is to the point and moves with a good flow, whereas KQ1 pretty much has nothing in the way of a story besides the overarching plot of finding the Treasures). I want colorful characters and I want cheesy-ness and cheesy puns (King Anthony the Great, Queen Icebella).
I want Graham to be the protagonist.
I would love a return to more of a fairy tale inspired atmosphere, with lots of very very different mythological and fairy tale characters and creatures thrown in the mix together. I want a sense of urgency that wasn't present in any game but KQ4. I want creatures to pop out of nowhere trying to get you and you have to escape off screen. I want some of the Occult/Lovecraft influence present in KQ5 in Mordack's Castle.
I want a large, very open world, that by the end of the game you feel like you've been on a long journey. But I want areas which are titillating to the eyes, but areas which you can never reach (IE the tiny islands in KQ5, or the village by the Roc's nest in KQ5--Areas which look interesting which have nothing to do with the game).
I want the ability to die, and I want funny deaths. I don't want the gameplay to feel locked in or repetitive as it does in Back to the Future. I don't want to have to keep coming back to the same areas over and over. Once one area or land has no further use, it should be left behind.
I don't want any hint system or any hand holding. I want to be stumped--I don't want the game to guide me to the right conclusion, I want to reach it myself.
I'd love a game that would take all the best parts of KQ1SCI, KQ5 and KQ7 and put them together, with something of a more Arthurian plot ala KQ8--but done with the tone and formant of KQ5-7. Basically, what KQ8 could've been if it had remained faithful to the series' "rules".
A question: Can an "interactive movie" be done where it is still challenging? Where it is an equal balance of "Movie" and "Game"? I always thought the idea of a '90s Sierra style Interactive Movie KQ (but with animation, not live actors at all) could be interesting, if it was challenging.
I've been thinking, however, about it being "too short." Now, I know that time played during a single playthrough is significantly shorter when one already knows the solutions to puzzles, and I haven't exactly timed myself lately, but I'm not sure the time it takes to beat KQ4, 5 or 6 is that much longer (or shorter) than the time it takes to beat Tales.
I'm not arguing your other points. I do think that Tales didn't have enough to interact with; too much dialogue and not enough puzzles; and caricature character models.
One thing about KQ games that I'm not sure how TTG can replicate is the variation between sizes of different areas. What I mean is, the starting area of KQ5 and 3 are the largest explorable areas of those games, and I'm not sure how that could be replicated in an episodic game series.
I know there are cheesy moments in KQ games, but I really detested the ant and bee characters in that game, and ESPECIALLY the dumb ant song while they search for the needle.
I'm not sure about the implementation of this. in KQ3 you spend most of the game in Llewdor; in KQ4 you spend the whole game on Tamir, with the time of day changing; in KQ5, the largest explorable area is the open area of Serenia before passing the snake.
They've turned into that because not everybody agrees with your delineation of what's realistic. I have a different opinion on that. I can't just accept someone imposing an arbitrary assumption and suggesting that conversation has to be confined to what follows from it when I believe there are important issues arising from debate on the assumption itself. It's hard to avoid these kinds of problems in forums when people think what's self-obvious to them should be self-obvious to everyone else. No matter how self-obvious it is.
---
Back to the current sub-topic...
First and foremost, I want multiple modes of interaction -- look, touch, talk, etc. I don't really care how it's implemented, a row of icons at the top, cursor-cycling, a popup menu, whatever.
I agree with most everything Anakin said. Except I would not say I want the plot to be "simplistic". I would rather say simple, as in non-convoluted, but I have no problem with the idea that a KQ plot could be as detailed as KQ6's. Not only should the gameplay genre be adventure but so should the fictional genre -- as others have said, a journey or quest, with no psychological drama.
I agree with Chyron that cheesiness taken too far is not a good thing.
This is an interesting issue I'd like to talk about more, except I'm not exactly sure what I want to say
KQ7 was more over the top, and silly...
KQ8 moved back more towards the more serious/dramatic style of KQ4-6 (and KQ1 remake)... But went out of its way to add things the series was not previously known for...
Wow. Can't believe you got that wrong. Morgeilen isn't from the novels. He's The Father in AGDI's games.
Anxiously awaiting Baggins' wall-of-text, citation filled post explaining why it is YOU who, in fact, are wrong, and he was right all along.
Too many wizards starting with the "Mor" title
However, my point still stands... I don't consider the The Father (who in this case originates out of a Fan Game) to have anything to do with Jane Jensen... Anymore than I would blame her for any characters from the novels (although KQ6 did inspire the The Floating Castle artwork)!
KQ3 wasn't serious or dramatic? The whole game is basically Gwydion escaping from Mannannan and trying to get home. Sure we got a few light hearted moments, but most of the game is pretty determined.
Look at some of the stuff said during the few conversations... Incuding the whole 'tattoo' remark, or the 'twincest' comments (milky white skin, sweeet cherry lips, bountiful assets, you'd kiss/date her if she wasn't your sister")!
For all intents and purposes the game has a relatively bright and cheery artstyle, and atmosphere throughout...