If you reach the island, the only thing of value there (besides the means to leave, which you are able to do at any time) is the bridle, and the whale only starts appearing after Lollotte tells you to obtain the unicorn. Not before. It follows that you need to use the whale to get at what you're looking for if the whale never appeared before you were ever looking for it. The same goes for the ogre/ogress after she tells you to obtain the hen. There is no evidence at the associated puzzle or anywhere leading up to it pointing to the fact that you need cheese...
First of all, you are using hindsight to make your argument. How, as a first time player, am I supposed to realize that a whale out in the ocean is only showing up because my character realized she needed a bridle? You assume that the desert island exists to provide the bridle, when there are several locations in Kings Quest games that exist solely as a puzzle to escape the screen. Not every screen in every kings quest game provides a useful item, so arguing that the island HAD to be important is absolute crap. Every argument you have made in regards to the bridle is based on hindsite and analyzing the specific events in the game which you would only know after you had beaten it AND read up on it. And as for your little rant about the parsar interface, that is bull too. Tell me a single instance in another KQ game where the parsar LOOK command doesn't work for the entire room, and opts to hide descriptions for items that are laying out in the open (not behind doors or in cabinets, but out in the open). Yea, that is what I thought. You can't.
Secondly, you are arguing that you didn't know you needed the cheese. Want me to list all the puzzles where you needed an item and didn't know? Half the time you pick up an item and you don't use it until later. Kings Quest was NEVER about knowing what item you needed, it was about picking up every thing that isn't nailed down and trying to use it in every situation.
As others have said, you are reaching and at this point you sound like you are desperately clinging to any excuse you can dig up.
Mice leave the screen in the catacombs in KQ6. Mice leave the screen in the dungeon in KQ5. Alexander can get caught, thrown in a dungeon cell and is rescued after a time in KQ6. Graham can get caught, thrown in a dungeon cell and is rescued after a time in KQ5. There is nothing of interest or value in Alexander's cell in KQ6.
It is logical to see a correlation.
Seriously? You just argued that there HAD to be something of value on the island, and now you are arguing that you had no indication there was anything of value in the cell. Do you realize the double standard you have set yourself up for here?
First of all, you are using hindsight to make your argument. How, as a first time player, am I supposed to realize that a whale out in the ocean is only showing up because my character realized she needed a bridle?
because if you swim out into the ocean before Lolotte tells you to get the unicorn, you will never encounter the whale. You only encounter it after you begin to need something to help you get the unicorn. It's not hard to associate one with the other. It's not hindsight. It's how my family knew they were supposed to be on the island when they got there.
Tell me a single instance in another KQ game where the parser LOOK command doesn't work for the entire room, and opts to hide descriptions for items that are laying out in the open (not behind doors or in cabinets, but out in the open).
I said "parser games" not just KQ games. And why does it constitute "out in the open" for the item to be behind a wooden barrier that is not on a hinge where it is not for a wooden barrier that is on a hinge (ie. a door) even if said door is already open?
I'm not going to go through every room of every parser game (nor every parser KQ game) I've ever played and test it out. For example, I'm not sure if when you open the closet door in the ogre's house and walk into it without closing the door (ie. the perspective doesn't change) it describes the inside of the closet if I told it to look around, but I would understand completely if it did. Are you wanting me to play through KQ4 just to see if it does?
Secondly, you are arguing that you didn't know you needed the cheese.
I am arguing that if you missed it, there is nothing anywhere to indicate that the cheese is what you needed, so there is no way to determine what it is that you're looking for if you reload and start searching the castle for something you missed to use on the machine.
Seriously? You just argued that there HAD to be something of value on the island, and now you are arguing that you had no indication there was anything of value in the cell. Do you realize the double standard you have set yourself up for here?
It's not a double standard to say that you can't get onto the island until you need what is there so that when you do get there you should know there is something there that you need; whereas when you reach the cell in KQ5 and are rescued, if you had played KQ6 beforehand (which I did), you may recall uninteresting mice running out of rooms in the catacombs as well as remember being captured and thrown into an apparently empty cell and released with nothing to gain by it.
Well, I just hope that Tell Tale's King's Quest doesn't have a puzzle like the magic cheese OR the Island Bridle. Those were both just pretty poorly designed puzzles. There was definitely some more refinement that could have been put on both to make them better.
Well, I just hope that Tell Tale's King's Quest doesn't have a puzzle like the magic cheese OR the Island Bridle. Those were both just pretty poorly designed puzzles. There was definitely some more refinement that could have been put on both to make them better.
Bt
Well, at least we know Chyron's "family" won't have any problems finding obtuse crap laying around. But hopefully they don't hide something in a place he has already been to in Kings Quest 6, or he will assume there was nothing there last time and so he better just keep on moving this time.
And as for you Chyron - your on your own here. No one agrees with you. I, and several others, have shown how retarded your logic is.
because if you swim out into the ocean before Lolotte tells you to get the unicorn, you will never encounter the whale. You only encounter it after you begin to need something to help you get the unicorn. It's not hard to associate one with the other. It's not hindsight. It's how my family knew they were supposed to be on the island when they got there.
It is so hindsight! How is a first time player supposed to know that the whale only shows up after the unicorn puzzle is launched? These game events were meant to appear random. For all a first time player knows it could appear at any point in the game. Nice to know your gene pool is capable of clairvoyance, though. Good on ya. At best your family was lucky to come to that conclusion and be correct. Just because they got Sierra's programmer logic on the first try doesn't mean everybody does.
Basically, most of King's Quest revolves around hindsight. The dead ends, the deaths, etc. They all show solutions to puzzles by presenting themselves when they end your quest. At least most of them do. Nowadays people don't like hindsight puzzles, though. It's all here-and-now "silver platter" logic.
Second, TTG's KQ isn't coming out for a long time so not a whole lot of people have been visiting this forum.
Third, have you ever considered that there are people who agree with me and have nothing to add, or people who just don't care to continue the argument?
Besides, my logic is not flawed, you just don't agree with it, no matter how sound it is.
It is so hindsight! How is a first time player supposed to know that the whale only shows up after the unicorn puzzle is launched?
Because you can swim back and forth between the mainland and Genesta's island, and the whale never appears before you meet Lolotte. My parents were first time players of adventure games in general and encountered this. At a later time, I tried to get the whale to appear beforehand and only ever encountered sharks. After you speak with Lolotte, the appearance of the whale is highly likely to happen, whereas I tried for 5 minutes straight to try to get it to appear before and it wouldn't.
Nice to know your gene pool is capable of clairvoyance, though.
How is it clairvoyance to swim out into the sea to find where Genesta flew off to, explore her island, swim back, die a few times to sharks or drowning while doing this, and then later discover that when you swim out to sea again after talking to Lolotte you encounter a whale when before you were told to get the unicorn you didn't?
I think his comment is 'true' in that yes, several us do not necessarily agree with all your points... Some even find some of your points 'hypocritical', 'contradictory', or 'contrarian'...
But that doesn't mean that because we disagree with you, that we are trolls! Nor does it mean that because you might disagree with us, that you are a 'troll'...
First of all, you are using hindsight to make your argument. How, as a first time player, am I supposed to realize that a whale out in the ocean is only showing up because my character realized she needed a bridle? You assume that the desert island exists to provide the bridle, when there are several locations in Kings Quest games that exist solely as a puzzle to escape the screen. Not every screen in every kings quest game provides a useful item, so arguing that the island HAD to be important is absolute crap. Every argument you have made in regards to the bridle is based on hindsite and analyzing the specific events in the game which you would only know after you had beaten it AND read up on it. And as for your little rant about the parsar interface, that is bull too. Tell me a single instance in another KQ game where the parsar LOOK command doesn't work for the entire room, and opts to hide descriptions for items that are laying out in the open (not behind doors or in cabinets, but out in the open). Yea, that is what I thought. You can't.
Yes, a new player isn't likely to realize that;
1. he needs a bridle to ride a unicorn...
Considering that in mythology and fairy tales, unicorns generally let maidens ride them without any bridles. Infact they tend to hate bridles... Instead they are ridden bareback and their manes are used as a means of holding on.
But for sake of arguement, someone might assume the boxart holds a clue (as it shows Rosella holding on to a terrified unicorn via a bridle). Although it doesn't really accurately show any event or even Rosella's appearance during the game!
2. likely to discover that he needs the bridle after shooting the Unicorn. Oops, first dead end created! Or rather moving the game towards one of the 'bad endings' death scenes.
3. Maybe assume the bridle would be in a logical place such as the castle Stable! As opposed to 'out at sea'. Will quickly realize this doesn't work, as the monkeys, will capture her again...
4. There is next to nothing telling the player to 'go explore the ocean'. The whale is completely random encounter at that point. Since a player would have to physically decide, 'oh I think I'll go swim out at sea, and see what's out there.' Perhaps, thinking they need to go check on Genesta on her island again? Even if they think that, there is no guerrentee that they will encounter the whale... They might run into the shark, or see nothing at all!
5. You must have first been to Genesta's island to get the 'feather'. Or the player will be stuck in a dead-end/death inside the whale! Suffocation/digestion! There may also be a few other items needed for inside the whale (lantern?), or it becomes a dead end?
6. There are a few things that can be done on the island, other than finding the bridle... For example preparing the escape, to get the whistle from the bird (perhaps making the player think that the 'whistle' is the important item to get on the island)!
7. Oh, but did you forget the fish, so that he can get the whistle? Uhoh, another dead end, and timed death (exposure and dehydration!).
Like the dungeon in KQ5, if a player isn't being careful he might just assume its a 'trap' (choosing to ignore the rules of adventure games to explore all new locations thoroughly, and try to pick up everything)! But he doesn't have the luxury of an automatic eye cursor/hand cursor taking him to the interactive spots as in KQ5. Unlike the dungeon, the player will come off the island with at least one new item, the 'whistle'!
There are so many factors that have to be running perfect for the player to figure out that he needs the bridle, or even escape from the predicament.
The 'dungeon' is actually somewhat less complicated, in that to escape, you only really needed to have solved one previous puzzle (befriending Cassima), and there is only one puzzle involved with finding the special item (using a hook). It's quite similar, but somewhat simpler (less complicated) in construction.
Whereas in KQ4, you really have to have several things prepared (2-3 items collected) in advance to even escape, both the whale, and the island! As well as not screw up the end-game by shooting the Unicorn too early!
The whale is located in a 'non-linear' location with no clues pointing to its existence (the dungeon beast appears on a linear path through Mordack's castle, that you know you have to explore to reach your family's location)...
-.- You must not have picked up on the tone of his post, how he basically is telling me that no one likes me so I should shut the hell up, and also saying that my parents and I are uniquely observant yet stupid at the same time.
Thanks for making all those wonderful points BagginsKQ and MusicallyInspired.
And thanks for not addressing any of them Chyron8472, and instead harping on your insistence that I'm a troll that has it out for you and your clairvoyant family.
How about to go back and address all of BagginsKQ's nicely organized points, or simply drop your insistence that
<deep breath>
just because a unicorn is walking around that it is somehow blatantly obvious that one needs a bridle from an island because a whale didn't show up earlier and you apparently like to take swims out to sea every time you accomplish anything (or have a conversation) which allows you to know that the SPECIFIC event that triggered the whale MUST have been the unicorn and not anything else you might have seen or done which in turn means anyplace you find due to the whale MUST contain the solve for the unicorn (in which case one could just as easily assume the bridle is under the whales tongue) and therefor when you arrive on the island even though a cursory examination (LOOK) reveals nothing and even a further examination reveals nothing (LOOK AT GROUND), you had the forsight (not hindsight apparently) to repeat the process of looking at the ground behind the bird, by the ship wreck, and every other onscreen object in the slight chance that rosella is not able to see something as massive as a bloody bridle over the top of the wooden ship EVEN THOUGH the command LOOK AT GROUND reveals everything on the ground in every other scene in that game, and all three games leading up to it.
<deep breath>
If you and your family stumbled upon it accidentally, then good for you. Don't mistake coincidence and circumstance for a standard puzzle design. And don't even try and convince me that you swam in the ocean so much that you knew exactly why the whale had appeared, and therefor, upon arriving at the island, where 100% clear that the means by which you could mount the unicorn must be hidden here somewhere. That is an absolutely ridiculous claim for anyone to make, and even more of a stretch when it becomes the crux of your argument that it is not an obtuse turn of events in the first place.
And if you would like to continue discussing this, I will remind you that there is no precedence for items being hidden behind things (that are laying on the ground), and yet you cling to "precedence" like a life preserver in terms of trying to convince everyone here that you had absolutely NO REASON WHAT-SO-EVER to try looking in the obviously drawn mouse hole.
You aren't convincing anyone here, and the more you go on and on the more contrary your arguments seem to get. As far as the "quality" or number of the KQ fans currently on this board, it is no accident that most of the people here are either extremely well versed in the lore and run fan sites or somehow involved with the production of fan made KQ games. IE: The most diehard of diehard KQ fans are here for the most part. BagginsKQ here is giving you a step by step list of the problems with your logic, and the best you can do is try to convince him that I am a troll.
If you would like to point out precedence for me being a troll, then you might be able to tie it into your original argument. Or maybe you can identify the exact point in this conversation where the troll appeared, in which case you could then derive that the following post contains the solution to ridding yourself of the troll. Or maybe it is all much simpler than that and if you were to only ask the troll to leave you be using the correct parser terminology (and from the correct room in the forum), it would then leave you be.
I rest my case, unless you would like to continue this farce of hind sighted nonsense, in which case I shall continue and taunt you a second time.
Another place a person might search and hi and low for 'bridles' might be the various houses... There is alot of junk in the Fisherman's house... The manor is a pretty big place... Rich people often own horses! ...or even try to get past the scary forest! Whose to say that someone hadn't lost their horse, while trying ride through the woods!
There is clearly no 'logical' explanation for why a bridle would be 'out at sea' (horses are land mammals)... or that you would need to be eaten by a whale to find it!
Whereas, 'cheese found in a mouse hole' makes perfect sense... It just breaks down from there (once you have found it)...
Encountering the whale is dumb luck, 'non-linear randomness', in a out of the way location... That also requires so many other factors to even get out of the predicament. A player has to assume, that finding the 'whistle' isn't the only reason he ended upon the island!
The two puzzles have the same problem of lack of logic at different ends.
There's no logical reason to look for a bridle on an island you only reach by being swallowed by a whale. However, once you have it, it's pretty clear what to do with it.
It's no great leap of logic that cheese will be in a mouse's hole. However, once you get it, there's no logical reason to use it to jumpstart a wand machine.
All this madness over a piece of cheese.
Look, King's Quest is CHEESY. Therefore, it is only logical that machines in the series be powered by Cheese. Simple.
Exo's post did come off as insulting, in a "Nobody here agrees with you so shut up and go away already" kind of way. I would not call him a troll, but "Agree to disagree?" would have been a much better and polite way to voice what he wanted to say. Just saying.
Back on topic, I'm with Blackthorne and Katie on this one, both puzzles are retarded and their only purpose was to incite people to buy hint books or dial the Sierra's hint line. Telltale will hopefully not pull off something this retarded in their game.
Back on on topic, walking deads or dead ends are hardly a generational thing. The Secret Of Monkey Island was released a year after King's Quest V. It, and the many dead end free LucasArts games that followed it were damn hard none-the-less, it was regarded as a breath of fresh air when it was released and I cannot think of a single post-Loom LucasArts game that would be improved if dead ends were included.
I also disagree that it only takes thirty minutes to restart from the start when you encounter a dead end in an adventure game. When you know where you screwed up or where the item you need is, sure, it takes thirty minutes, but when you don't know the exact moment where you screwed up, and that was the case in many old school adventure games, you have to double and triple check every rooms looking for something you didn't pick up or didn't do correctly, hardly something you can do under thirty minutes.
But the more I think about it, the more I think that dead ends, like death, are not inherently frustrating, it's just that more often than not they have been badly implemented, and if it's possible to make dying in adventure games a logical, fair and non frustrating process that add to the immersion and realism, or in the case of some Sierra games, is part of the fun, maybe the same could be done with dead ends.
What if dead ends were fair, logical and not tied to moon logic puzzles, if the solutions were located in the same chapter as the dead ends and you only had to replay a small portion of the game, not the whole thing, if the game warned you that you are currently in an unwinnable state, hinted where exactly you screwed up, didn't not force you to replay maze or action sequences, warned you beforehand that you had to be prepared before entering an area you cannot come back from, provided automatic saves, that could not be overwritten, at specific moments in the game like the beginning of each chapters, or what if the game was still completable, if only with a sub-par ending... well, maybe dead ends could be tolerable.
I do not believe dead ends will get a revival in commercial projects, there is simply too much stigmata linked to them, doing so would simply drive away everyone but a minority of ultra hardcore players, it would be a financial suicidal move. But in freeware indie adventure games? Who knows. Maybe designing a game where dead ends are present, tolerable and a welcome feature could be a project Infamous Adventures could try to tackle.
I kind of like dead ends, if the objective is pretty clearly given to you earlier in the game. I don't like them when they come out of nowhere, but the idea that you didn't accomplish something earlier can bite you in the ass later appeals to me.
Dead ends can be used, but they must be handled with a lot of planning and care, for sure. In the end, no game is perfect - it's entertainment, and sometime what seems to work well for a designer doesn't end up working well out in practice. I'd rather designers take a risk like that - far too often (but not always, I cannot stress that enough) clinging to a no-dead ends philosophy leads to bland and safe game design.
I agree. However, it seems to be standard procedure for TTG to not give very many details about their projects until they're almost at the release date.
For the record, I don't condone exo's tone and I have nothing against Chyron. My comments about clairvoyance were more in jest than anything. But I stand by what I said. It was luck that you guessed the whale appeared only after the unicorn puzzle was launched. Like I said, one could assume that the whale's appearance is an extremely rare random event. It's not that far fetched. Especially in King's Quest. And what about the people that don't spend most of their game time swimming back and forth between Tamir's shores and Genesta's island?
Maybe you should go take a swim in the ocean and see if this triggered something new.
Note: There is a huge difference between trolling and getting fed up with your ridiculous excuses and backwards ass logic. I'm not going to sit here nicely discussing things with you when you blatantly ignore all evidence that contradicts you.
My point earlier was not that you should "shut up", but rather many of the people's biggest KQ fans and most knowledgeable people happen to be on this board. Several of them have directly provided arguments that contradict your viewpoint, and so maybe you might want to consider that when several people (one or two of which can quote the games backwards) provide examples and well thought out evidence that happen to disagree with your point, then you might want to get off your little horse there and take into account that maybe your wrong.
Sure, I could have been nicer in stating that, but you could have been less daft when stating that EVERYONE KNOWS the whale ONLY appeared because you gave a unicorn a blowjob in the forest. retarded logic is retarded, and i'm not shy in calling that out.
Okay, I'm playing through KQ4 again, and the bridle is not the only thing you need to stand in a certain place to be able to see.
However, I find that the bridle can, in fact, be seen while not in the boat.
Further, you get thrown into a cell in Lolotte's castle in KQ4 and have to wait for a while before being released, and there is nothing of importance at all in the cell. Played KQ4... nothing in the cell. Played KQ6... nothing in the cell. There is logic here, I'm sure you can see it.
Also, you don't have to swim everywhere a lot of times to notice the whale or lack thereof. All you have to do is accidentally fall off the pier and swim north or south a screen from it to see open ocean, and you have to swim to Genesta's and back at least once to get the feather. Yet, you never see the whale. After you visit Lolotte, the whale's appearance is quite frequent. This logically follows that you only see the whale after visiting Lolotte, and therefore that there is something of value on the island since yyou require the whale to get to it. "But Lolotte is the first place you're supposed to go anyway. How would a person know this?" Well, the path to Lolotte's castle is in the far southeast corner, and there's a lot of map to explore before a first time player finds that screen.
Chyron when I played through kq4 for the first time I searched the cell you are thrown into. I looked at every thing I could. I didn't just sit there twiddling my thumbs. That's how you correctly discover there is nothing of interest.
Likewise in Kq5 I didn't just sit there, and ignore things on the screen. I looked around clicked on everything. Doing so brings up closes ups of the mouse hole and the cheese.
If you sit around ignoring thigs and doing nothing in the few minutes while you wait, you aren't playing these games correctly...
However, I find that the bridle can, in fact, be seen while not in the boat.
One thing you overlooked or failed to mention is the fact that the ball is actually rather more obvious, as a player you can see it on screen.
Where as the boat you can't see anything, and have to be standing in the right place to see the clue.
But, Interesting that you take the rule to look at everything on the island, but you apparently lazily ignored everything in the dungeons! This is a double standard!
For me personally I found the bridle the first time, since I have an investigative nature and check everything! Even things that might be unimportant. Likewise I found the cheese easily, as I explored everything in each screen...
Also, you don't have to swim everywhere a lot of times to notice the whale or lack thereof. All you have to do is accidentally fall off the pier and swim north or south a screen from it to see open ocean, and you have to swim to Genesta's and back at least once to get the feather. After you visit Lolotte, the whale's appearance is quite frequent.
Don't you realize what you suggests required an accident?! Not every player is going to make that action. Especially of they are careful types. Secondly, people can travel to genesta's island first thing in the game and get the feather. They won't encounter the whale and there is nothing to indicating to the player that a well will show up later... That they need to go out swimming again.
Again you aren't taking the non-linear nature of KQ4 into account, and are trying to apply a linear series of events to the puzzle progression. You are assuming that a player discovers the island after talking to Lolotte, and picks up the feather after that event as well.
Yes some may accidentally discover the whale, or find the feather after discovering the whale, but non-linear gameplay means its possible for players to discover areas and items before they are actually needed in the game. Experiences vary.
You can SEE the gold ball under the bridge. Visually. And at least the message says specifically "You see nothing of importance from where you are standing."
You say that as though there's quite a lot to click on.
You must be blind... I looked where the mouse went first time I played the game. Looked at other parts of the room as well just to see the narrative descriptions around the room. I say that meaning I tried to physically click on every thing in the room, the walls, the water, the roof, the strange plants, the bars, the skeleton, mouse hole, the ground etc! I'm thorough.
Perhaps you needed glasses or a new prescription? Or maybe you are color blind to certain shades?
Also, IIRC, just looking around the northern wall, the narrator will even point to there being 'mouse hole' on that wall.
Speaking of all the somewhat unfair KQ puzzles, I was replaying KQ6 a bit recently, and stumbled across something I hadn't before in the pawnshop --by looking at the shelves, you get a whole trove of funny easter eggs...
Self-adhesive emeralds: what you use when you don't have honey
Tongue-climbing gear. Tested on over 100 whale tongues
A uvula tickler, guaranted to make large animals sneeze
A cheese hook, for retriving cheese from small holes
A shovel that's guaranteed not to break for over 100 grave diggings
A bridge repair kit, for when you're crossed a brdige one too many time
Stair traction pads. Stop slipping off those narrow staircases!
A hull hole detector, for finding those hard to find holes in sail boats
Cat cookie mix. Play tricks on your friends, the box says
A golden bridle-finder, for finding those nearly invisible golden bridles
A bottle labelled owl courage potion, for spineless owls
A bottle of gnome-be-gone
Bird's nest soup mix, treasure not included
Garlic, especially grown for vampire resilience
Magic mirror glass cleaner, for when your future looks fuzzy
Sorcerer's flea coller, is easy... Manannan became a cat hasn't he?
The 'gnome-be-gone' is a self reference to KQ6, in which one of the early puzzles once you leave the leave the Isle of the Crown, is to get rid of the five Sense Gnomes.
Note, that while Rumplestiltskin, a 'gnome' appears in KQ1 and KQ3, you aren't trying to 'get rid of him'.
Although there is a gnome in Wizard and the Princess, that gets in your way, and steals your stuff (leading you to have to find his secret home)... It might be nice to be able to 'get rid of that one'!
The 'hull hole detector' is a double reference to a puzzle in Wizard and the Princess, and similar puzzle in KQ5, both games that occured in Serenia.
Sorcerer's flea coller, is easy... Manannan became a cat hasn't he?
It does seem like it, it's just that it wouldn't be an obvious way to solve any particular puzzle, which the others all seem to be. Maybe it would make him less ornery in Mordack's castle.
It was thinking Rumplestiltskin for the Gnome-be-gone, or maybe a mis-named way to get rid of the thieving dwarf in 1.
I'm pretty sure, its self reference, to having to get rid of five gnomes in KQ6 itself.
But that would make the puzzle super easy, if you could just buy the bottle of 'gnome-be-gone'!
Like, I said, you don't 'get rid of' Rumplestiltskin, he helps you in both games! Even if you screw up the backwards version/s of his name! He's there to be one of the few good guys, who tries to give the players a helping hand!
wouldn't be an obvious way to solve any particular puzzle, which the others all seem to be.
Technically, neither would "miniature carpet cleaner"!
'bird's nest soup mix' wouldn't solve any particular puzzle either! (the treasure isn't included!)
The magic mirror cleaner is somewhat off the 'puzzle' solution path as well!
No news on KQ yet, but this video interview about Walking Dead brings up something very distressing--the fact that Telltale is continuing with their misguided attempts at "revolutionary cinematic adventure" QTE gameplay, which we will apparently see in Walking Dead. And this after JP was nearly universally panned for its terrible gameplay. Without their ability to get sought-after licenses and milk them for all they are worth with minimal creative effort, this company would be sunk.
The prospects are just looking dimmer and dimmer for Telltale's KQ. Ugh.
There aren't really any direct puzzles surrounding the dwarf... Somewhat more to do in KQ2 but not really anything involving 'banishing' the dwarf. Plus both game already have 'dwarf-be-gone' powers so to speak, think fairy godmother and good fairy. So that kind of ruins the intent of the joke (having something you didn't have access to in the game itself)!
Even then the Dwarf is not really much of a threat in kQ1 only appears in one screen in the original, and a couple more in the remake. In kQ2 you can go get whatever he steals back from him. But in both he's relatively easy to avoid, and he won't follow you between screens. He is always completely random. Not truly an obstacle.
I can't think of anywhere the games mix up dwarves and gnomes in terminology.
I mean even KQ1 specifically divided the two species.
KQ6 (and possibly Wizard and The Princess) are the only games were you have banish gnomes getting in your way. But don't have anything to do it with (Wizard and the Princess), or need more than one thing to do it.
No news on KQ yet, but this video interview about Walking Dead brings up something very distressing--the fact that Telltale is continuing with their misguided attempts at "revolutionary cinematic adventure" QTE gameplay, which we will apparently see in Walking Dead. And this after JP was nearly universally panned for its terrible gameplay. Without their ability to get sought-after licenses and milk them for all they are worth with minimal creative effort, this company would be sunk.
The prospects are just looking dimmer and dimmer for Telltale's KQ. Ugh.
I think we can say within relative safety margins that KQ won't have QTE, but that doesn't mean they're not going to fail to deliver a satisfying puzzle experience with the same lazy puzzle design mentality they've put into the past two titles (and looks like a third is upcoming).
Look at it this way, if it sucks it sucks. It'll die quickly and nobody will remember it. KQ will find a new home one day. It doesn't really matter in the end. At least we can then say that there was something worse than MOE.
I agree. However, it seems to be standard procedure for TTG to not give very many details about their projects until they're almost at the release date.
Presumably because they know their games are atrocious messes that no one would buy with any knowledge of what the game is actually like?
Well, I certainly hope they don't go the QTE way on King's Quest. In fact, I hope - for this company - that King's Quest is the game that breaks their current mold and trend, and actually is a positive title for the company.
Well, I certainly hope they don't go the QTE way on King's Quest. In fact, I hope - for this company - that King's Quest is the game that breaks their current mold and trend, and actually is a positive title for the company.
Comments
Lonely, dank and dark places to haunt... The guard dogs say, they don't like hanging around the cells, because they are all haunted!
The ghost can actually appear in at least 2 of the three cells... The north cell, and the middle cell. At least commonly.
First of all, you are using hindsight to make your argument. How, as a first time player, am I supposed to realize that a whale out in the ocean is only showing up because my character realized she needed a bridle? You assume that the desert island exists to provide the bridle, when there are several locations in Kings Quest games that exist solely as a puzzle to escape the screen. Not every screen in every kings quest game provides a useful item, so arguing that the island HAD to be important is absolute crap. Every argument you have made in regards to the bridle is based on hindsite and analyzing the specific events in the game which you would only know after you had beaten it AND read up on it. And as for your little rant about the parsar interface, that is bull too. Tell me a single instance in another KQ game where the parsar LOOK command doesn't work for the entire room, and opts to hide descriptions for items that are laying out in the open (not behind doors or in cabinets, but out in the open). Yea, that is what I thought. You can't.
Secondly, you are arguing that you didn't know you needed the cheese. Want me to list all the puzzles where you needed an item and didn't know? Half the time you pick up an item and you don't use it until later. Kings Quest was NEVER about knowing what item you needed, it was about picking up every thing that isn't nailed down and trying to use it in every situation.
As others have said, you are reaching and at this point you sound like you are desperately clinging to any excuse you can dig up.
Seriously? You just argued that there HAD to be something of value on the island, and now you are arguing that you had no indication there was anything of value in the cell. Do you realize the double standard you have set yourself up for here?
I said "parser games" not just KQ games. And why does it constitute "out in the open" for the item to be behind a wooden barrier that is not on a hinge where it is not for a wooden barrier that is on a hinge (ie. a door) even if said door is already open?
I'm not going to go through every room of every parser game (nor every parser KQ game) I've ever played and test it out. For example, I'm not sure if when you open the closet door in the ogre's house and walk into it without closing the door (ie. the perspective doesn't change) it describes the inside of the closet if I told it to look around, but I would understand completely if it did. Are you wanting me to play through KQ4 just to see if it does?
I am arguing that if you missed it, there is nothing anywhere to indicate that the cheese is what you needed, so there is no way to determine what it is that you're looking for if you reload and start searching the castle for something you missed to use on the machine.
It's not a double standard to say that you can't get onto the island until you need what is there so that when you do get there you should know there is something there that you need; whereas when you reach the cell in KQ5 and are rescued, if you had played KQ6 beforehand (which I did), you may recall uninteresting mice running out of rooms in the catacombs as well as remember being captured and thrown into an apparently empty cell and released with nothing to gain by it.
Bt
Well, at least we know Chyron's "family" won't have any problems finding obtuse crap laying around. But hopefully they don't hide something in a place he has already been to in Kings Quest 6, or he will assume there was nothing there last time and so he better just keep on moving this time.
And as for you Chyron - your on your own here. No one agrees with you. I, and several others, have shown how retarded your logic is.
It is so hindsight! How is a first time player supposed to know that the whale only shows up after the unicorn puzzle is launched? These game events were meant to appear random. For all a first time player knows it could appear at any point in the game. Nice to know your gene pool is capable of clairvoyance, though. Good on ya. At best your family was lucky to come to that conclusion and be correct. Just because they got Sierra's programmer logic on the first try doesn't mean everybody does.
Basically, most of King's Quest revolves around hindsight. The dead ends, the deaths, etc. They all show solutions to puzzles by presenting themselves when they end your quest. At least most of them do. Nowadays people don't like hindsight puzzles, though. It's all here-and-now "silver platter" logic.
First, don't be a troll.
Second, TTG's KQ isn't coming out for a long time so not a whole lot of people have been visiting this forum.
Third, have you ever considered that there are people who agree with me and have nothing to add, or people who just don't care to continue the argument?
Besides, my logic is not flawed, you just don't agree with it, no matter how sound it is.
Fourth, don't be a troll.
Because you can swim back and forth between the mainland and Genesta's island, and the whale never appears before you meet Lolotte. My parents were first time players of adventure games in general and encountered this. At a later time, I tried to get the whale to appear beforehand and only ever encountered sharks. After you speak with Lolotte, the appearance of the whale is highly likely to happen, whereas I tried for 5 minutes straight to try to get it to appear before and it wouldn't.
How is it clairvoyance to swim out into the sea to find where Genesta flew off to, explore her island, swim back, die a few times to sharks or drowning while doing this, and then later discover that when you swim out to sea again after talking to Lolotte you encounter a whale when before you were told to get the unicorn you didn't?
How did his comment make him a troll?
Whose to say, maybe you are one, or not?
I think his comment is 'true' in that yes, several us do not necessarily agree with all your points... Some even find some of your points 'hypocritical', 'contradictory', or 'contrarian'...
But that doesn't mean that because we disagree with you, that we are trolls! Nor does it mean that because you might disagree with us, that you are a 'troll'...
Yes, a new player isn't likely to realize that;
1. he needs a bridle to ride a unicorn...
Considering that in mythology and fairy tales, unicorns generally let maidens ride them without any bridles. Infact they tend to hate bridles... Instead they are ridden bareback and their manes are used as a means of holding on.
But for sake of arguement, someone might assume the boxart holds a clue (as it shows Rosella holding on to a terrified unicorn via a bridle). Although it doesn't really accurately show any event or even Rosella's appearance during the game!
2. likely to discover that he needs the bridle after shooting the Unicorn. Oops, first dead end created! Or rather moving the game towards one of the 'bad endings' death scenes.
3. Maybe assume the bridle would be in a logical place such as the castle Stable! As opposed to 'out at sea'. Will quickly realize this doesn't work, as the monkeys, will capture her again...
4. There is next to nothing telling the player to 'go explore the ocean'. The whale is completely random encounter at that point. Since a player would have to physically decide, 'oh I think I'll go swim out at sea, and see what's out there.' Perhaps, thinking they need to go check on Genesta on her island again? Even if they think that, there is no guerrentee that they will encounter the whale... They might run into the shark, or see nothing at all!
5. You must have first been to Genesta's island to get the 'feather'. Or the player will be stuck in a dead-end/death inside the whale! Suffocation/digestion! There may also be a few other items needed for inside the whale (lantern?), or it becomes a dead end?
6. There are a few things that can be done on the island, other than finding the bridle... For example preparing the escape, to get the whistle from the bird (perhaps making the player think that the 'whistle' is the important item to get on the island)!
7. Oh, but did you forget the fish, so that he can get the whistle? Uhoh, another dead end, and timed death (exposure and dehydration!).
Like the dungeon in KQ5, if a player isn't being careful he might just assume its a 'trap' (choosing to ignore the rules of adventure games to explore all new locations thoroughly, and try to pick up everything)! But he doesn't have the luxury of an automatic eye cursor/hand cursor taking him to the interactive spots as in KQ5. Unlike the dungeon, the player will come off the island with at least one new item, the 'whistle'!
There are so many factors that have to be running perfect for the player to figure out that he needs the bridle, or even escape from the predicament.
The 'dungeon' is actually somewhat less complicated, in that to escape, you only really needed to have solved one previous puzzle (befriending Cassima), and there is only one puzzle involved with finding the special item (using a hook). It's quite similar, but somewhat simpler (less complicated) in construction.
Whereas in KQ4, you really have to have several things prepared (2-3 items collected) in advance to even escape, both the whale, and the island! As well as not screw up the end-game by shooting the Unicorn too early!
The whale is located in a 'non-linear' location with no clues pointing to its existence (the dungeon beast appears on a linear path through Mordack's castle, that you know you have to explore to reach your family's location)...
And thanks for not addressing any of them Chyron8472, and instead harping on your insistence that I'm a troll that has it out for you and your clairvoyant family.
How about to go back and address all of BagginsKQ's nicely organized points, or simply drop your insistence that
<deep breath>
just because a unicorn is walking around that it is somehow blatantly obvious that one needs a bridle from an island because a whale didn't show up earlier and you apparently like to take swims out to sea every time you accomplish anything (or have a conversation) which allows you to know that the SPECIFIC event that triggered the whale MUST have been the unicorn and not anything else you might have seen or done which in turn means anyplace you find due to the whale MUST contain the solve for the unicorn (in which case one could just as easily assume the bridle is under the whales tongue) and therefor when you arrive on the island even though a cursory examination (LOOK) reveals nothing and even a further examination reveals nothing (LOOK AT GROUND), you had the forsight (not hindsight apparently) to repeat the process of looking at the ground behind the bird, by the ship wreck, and every other onscreen object in the slight chance that rosella is not able to see something as massive as a bloody bridle over the top of the wooden ship EVEN THOUGH the command LOOK AT GROUND reveals everything on the ground in every other scene in that game, and all three games leading up to it.
<deep breath>
If you and your family stumbled upon it accidentally, then good for you. Don't mistake coincidence and circumstance for a standard puzzle design. And don't even try and convince me that you swam in the ocean so much that you knew exactly why the whale had appeared, and therefor, upon arriving at the island, where 100% clear that the means by which you could mount the unicorn must be hidden here somewhere. That is an absolutely ridiculous claim for anyone to make, and even more of a stretch when it becomes the crux of your argument that it is not an obtuse turn of events in the first place.
And if you would like to continue discussing this, I will remind you that there is no precedence for items being hidden behind things (that are laying on the ground), and yet you cling to "precedence" like a life preserver in terms of trying to convince everyone here that you had absolutely NO REASON WHAT-SO-EVER to try looking in the obviously drawn mouse hole.
You aren't convincing anyone here, and the more you go on and on the more contrary your arguments seem to get. As far as the "quality" or number of the KQ fans currently on this board, it is no accident that most of the people here are either extremely well versed in the lore and run fan sites or somehow involved with the production of fan made KQ games. IE: The most diehard of diehard KQ fans are here for the most part. BagginsKQ here is giving you a step by step list of the problems with your logic, and the best you can do is try to convince him that I am a troll.
If you would like to point out precedence for me being a troll, then you might be able to tie it into your original argument. Or maybe you can identify the exact point in this conversation where the troll appeared, in which case you could then derive that the following post contains the solution to ridding yourself of the troll. Or maybe it is all much simpler than that and if you were to only ask the troll to leave you be using the correct parser terminology (and from the correct room in the forum), it would then leave you be.
I rest my case, unless you would like to continue this farce of hind sighted nonsense, in which case I shall continue and taunt you a second time.
There is clearly no 'logical' explanation for why a bridle would be 'out at sea' (horses are land mammals)... or that you would need to be eaten by a whale to find it!
Whereas, 'cheese found in a mouse hole' makes perfect sense... It just breaks down from there (once you have found it)...
Encountering the whale is dumb luck, 'non-linear randomness', in a out of the way location... That also requires so many other factors to even get out of the predicament. A player has to assume, that finding the 'whistle' isn't the only reason he ended upon the island!
There's no logical reason to look for a bridle on an island you only reach by being swallowed by a whale. However, once you have it, it's pretty clear what to do with it.
It's no great leap of logic that cheese will be in a mouse's hole. However, once you get it, there's no logical reason to use it to jumpstart a wand machine.
Look, King's Quest is CHEESY. Therefore, it is only logical that machines in the series be powered by Cheese. Simple.
Yes, I know.
Back on topic, I'm with Blackthorne and Katie on this one, both puzzles are retarded and their only purpose was to incite people to buy hint books or dial the Sierra's hint line. Telltale will hopefully not pull off something this retarded in their game.
Back on on topic, walking deads or dead ends are hardly a generational thing. The Secret Of Monkey Island was released a year after King's Quest V. It, and the many dead end free LucasArts games that followed it were damn hard none-the-less, it was regarded as a breath of fresh air when it was released and I cannot think of a single post-Loom LucasArts game that would be improved if dead ends were included.
I also disagree that it only takes thirty minutes to restart from the start when you encounter a dead end in an adventure game. When you know where you screwed up or where the item you need is, sure, it takes thirty minutes, but when you don't know the exact moment where you screwed up, and that was the case in many old school adventure games, you have to double and triple check every rooms looking for something you didn't pick up or didn't do correctly, hardly something you can do under thirty minutes.
But the more I think about it, the more I think that dead ends, like death, are not inherently frustrating, it's just that more often than not they have been badly implemented, and if it's possible to make dying in adventure games a logical, fair and non frustrating process that add to the immersion and realism, or in the case of some Sierra games, is part of the fun, maybe the same could be done with dead ends.
What if dead ends were fair, logical and not tied to moon logic puzzles, if the solutions were located in the same chapter as the dead ends and you only had to replay a small portion of the game, not the whole thing, if the game warned you that you are currently in an unwinnable state, hinted where exactly you screwed up, didn't not force you to replay maze or action sequences, warned you beforehand that you had to be prepared before entering an area you cannot come back from, provided automatic saves, that could not be overwritten, at specific moments in the game like the beginning of each chapters, or what if the game was still completable, if only with a sub-par ending... well, maybe dead ends could be tolerable.
I do not believe dead ends will get a revival in commercial projects, there is simply too much stigmata linked to them, doing so would simply drive away everyone but a minority of ultra hardcore players, it would be a financial suicidal move. But in freeware indie adventure games? Who knows. Maybe designing a game where dead ends are present, tolerable and a welcome feature could be a project Infamous Adventures could try to tackle.
Dead ends can be used, but they must be handled with a lot of planning and care, for sure. In the end, no game is perfect - it's entertainment, and sometime what seems to work well for a designer doesn't end up working well out in practice. I'd rather designers take a risk like that - far too often (but not always, I cannot stress that enough) clinging to a no-dead ends philosophy leads to bland and safe game design.
Bt
Anyway, this is a stupid debate now so I quit.
Maybe you should go take a swim in the ocean and see if this triggered something new.
Note: There is a huge difference between trolling and getting fed up with your ridiculous excuses and backwards ass logic. I'm not going to sit here nicely discussing things with you when you blatantly ignore all evidence that contradicts you.
My point earlier was not that you should "shut up", but rather many of the people's biggest KQ fans and most knowledgeable people happen to be on this board. Several of them have directly provided arguments that contradict your viewpoint, and so maybe you might want to consider that when several people (one or two of which can quote the games backwards) provide examples and well thought out evidence that happen to disagree with your point, then you might want to get off your little horse there and take into account that maybe your wrong.
Sure, I could have been nicer in stating that, but you could have been less daft when stating that EVERYONE KNOWS the whale ONLY appeared because you gave a unicorn a blowjob in the forest. retarded logic is retarded, and i'm not shy in calling that out.
However, I find that the bridle can, in fact, be seen while not in the boat.
Further, you get thrown into a cell in Lolotte's castle in KQ4 and have to wait for a while before being released, and there is nothing of importance at all in the cell. Played KQ4... nothing in the cell. Played KQ6... nothing in the cell. There is logic here, I'm sure you can see it.
Also, you don't have to swim everywhere a lot of times to notice the whale or lack thereof. All you have to do is accidentally fall off the pier and swim north or south a screen from it to see open ocean, and you have to swim to Genesta's and back at least once to get the feather. Yet, you never see the whale. After you visit Lolotte, the whale's appearance is quite frequent. This logically follows that you only see the whale after visiting Lolotte, and therefore that there is something of value on the island since yyou require the whale to get to it. "But Lolotte is the first place you're supposed to go anyway. How would a person know this?" Well, the path to Lolotte's castle is in the far southeast corner, and there's a lot of map to explore before a first time player finds that screen.
Likewise in Kq5 I didn't just sit there, and ignore things on the screen. I looked around clicked on everything. Doing so brings up closes ups of the mouse hole and the cheese.
If you sit around ignoring thigs and doing nothing in the few minutes while you wait, you aren't playing these games correctly...
One thing you overlooked or failed to mention is the fact that the ball is actually rather more obvious, as a player you can see it on screen.
Where as the boat you can't see anything, and have to be standing in the right place to see the clue.
But, Interesting that you take the rule to look at everything on the island, but you apparently lazily ignored everything in the dungeons! This is a double standard!
For me personally I found the bridle the first time, since I have an investigative nature and check everything! Even things that might be unimportant. Likewise I found the cheese easily, as I explored everything in each screen...
Don't you realize what you suggests required an accident?! Not every player is going to make that action. Especially of they are careful types. Secondly, people can travel to genesta's island first thing in the game and get the feather. They won't encounter the whale and there is nothing to indicating to the player that a well will show up later... That they need to go out swimming again.
Again you aren't taking the non-linear nature of KQ4 into account, and are trying to apply a linear series of events to the puzzle progression. You are assuming that a player discovers the island after talking to Lolotte, and picks up the feather after that event as well.
Yes some may accidentally discover the whale, or find the feather after discovering the whale, but non-linear gameplay means its possible for players to discover areas and items before they are actually needed in the game. Experiences vary.
You say that as though there's quite a lot to click on.
So, I missed that one stupid little hole amongst all the other blank wall. The mouse wasn't exactly conspicuous, you know.
You must be blind... I looked where the mouse went first time I played the game. Looked at other parts of the room as well just to see the narrative descriptions around the room. I say that meaning I tried to physically click on every thing in the room, the walls, the water, the roof, the strange plants, the bars, the skeleton, mouse hole, the ground etc! I'm thorough.
Perhaps you needed glasses or a new prescription? Or maybe you are color blind to certain shades?
Also, IIRC, just looking around the northern wall, the narrator will even point to there being 'mouse hole' on that wall.
Do you know all the references?
The 'gnome-be-gone' is a self reference to KQ6, in which one of the early puzzles once you leave the leave the Isle of the Crown, is to get rid of the five Sense Gnomes.
Note, that while Rumplestiltskin, a 'gnome' appears in KQ1 and KQ3, you aren't trying to 'get rid of him'.
Although there is a gnome in Wizard and the Princess, that gets in your way, and steals your stuff (leading you to have to find his secret home)... It might be nice to be able to 'get rid of that one'!
The 'hull hole detector' is a double reference to a puzzle in Wizard and the Princess, and similar puzzle in KQ5, both games that occured in Serenia.
It does seem like it, it's just that it wouldn't be an obvious way to solve any particular puzzle, which the others all seem to be. Maybe it would make him less ornery in Mordack's castle.
It was thinking Rumplestiltskin for the Gnome-be-gone, or maybe a mis-named way to get rid of the thieving dwarf in 1.
But that would make the puzzle super easy, if you could just buy the bottle of 'gnome-be-gone'!
Like, I said, you don't 'get rid of' Rumplestiltskin, he helps you in both games! Even if you screw up the backwards version/s of his name! He's there to be one of the few good guys, who tries to give the players a helping hand!
Technically, neither would "miniature carpet cleaner"!
'bird's nest soup mix' wouldn't solve any particular puzzle either! (the treasure isn't included!)
The magic mirror cleaner is somewhat off the 'puzzle' solution path as well!
No news on KQ yet, but this video interview about Walking Dead brings up something very distressing--the fact that Telltale is continuing with their misguided attempts at "revolutionary cinematic adventure" QTE gameplay, which we will apparently see in Walking Dead. And this after JP was nearly universally panned for its terrible gameplay. Without their ability to get sought-after licenses and milk them for all they are worth with minimal creative effort, this company would be sunk.
The prospects are just looking dimmer and dimmer for Telltale's KQ. Ugh.
Even then the Dwarf is not really much of a threat in kQ1 only appears in one screen in the original, and a couple more in the remake. In kQ2 you can go get whatever he steals back from him. But in both he's relatively easy to avoid, and he won't follow you between screens. He is always completely random. Not truly an obstacle.
I can't think of anywhere the games mix up dwarves and gnomes in terminology.
I mean even KQ1 specifically divided the two species.
KQ6 (and possibly Wizard and The Princess) are the only games were you have banish gnomes getting in your way. But don't have anything to do it with (Wizard and the Princess), or need more than one thing to do it.
Utterly pathetic.
Look at it this way, if it sucks it sucks. It'll die quickly and nobody will remember it. KQ will find a new home one day. It doesn't really matter in the end. At least we can then say that there was something worse than MOE.
Presumably because they know their games are atrocious messes that no one would buy with any knowledge of what the game is actually like?
Bt
As far as the majority is concerned, I mean. Though, that still probably won't happen.
Hopefully.