I already stated that calling someone old friend doesnt have as clear meaning as saying i dont really know him that well. I can call people from school old friends, even though i havent seen them in years and have no idea what they are like anymore. I can call them old friends, or just state the fact that i actually dont know them that well and both of them are valid, but other is just more harsh answer, even if its true.
And I already stated that there really isn't any way you can measure that/ you're just grasping at straws. Feel free to think that way. There is nothing to back it up. There is nothing to take away from the idea that Clementine did see Kenny as her friend. Based on her recent reactions to Kenny leading up to that scene (and the interactions following it), it is certainly a completely valid idea. You can't tell me that my Clementine didn't view Kenny as a legit old friend just because there was an alternative to say otherwise.
You are speaking as if everyone would eventually be friends, just because they are around each other...
No, I am not doing that at all. You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't specify any type of relationship. Having a relationship doesn't mean it has to be a friendly one. Obviously in Kenny and Clementine's case we can assume that they had a friendly relationship simply based on how happy they were to see one another at the start of season two.
If you hear someone saying that they want someone dead and later votes that they leave him behind, how could you still like that person? He wants your friend dead/left behind... If you think Clementine didnt dislike Kenny for this, then you are delusional.
There is absolutely nothing for that logic to stand on at all. You're completely ignoring the other side of the coin. If one my friends just found out that one of my other friends was the reason behind getting his entire family killed, I would totally level with that friend's anger. For all we know, Clementine could have understood what Kenny was going through. She may have even been mad with him in the moment, but that doesn't necessarily mean she held onto that anger. There is no way we can possibly know how Clementine perceived this situation, and we don't know the actual implications of those perceptions. Don't tell me I'm being delusional when you have no clue what you're talking about.
What about the fact that Lee can agree with Kenny in leaving Ben behind, despite Clementine's protest? Clearly Clementine doesn't hold this against Lee in the case of this happening. So again, your argument doesn't really have anything to stand on. Its just complete speculation. We have to keep in mind that these two were actually legitimately happy to see each other again at the start of season two. This implies that they were at least somewhat fond of one another. So the idea of Clementine holding some kind of lasting grudge is a little far fetched... and it is certainly arguable that it didn't leave any sort of lasting blemish upon their relationship.
This is what i've been saying. They knew each other from being in same group but they werent ask close as the game lets us think in season 2.
You're just guessing. Outside of knowing they had a certain fondness for one another in season one, we don't really know any specifics. Regardless, how you act upon that pre existing relationship is up to you as the player. You can act fairly indifferent moving forward if that really floats your boat. You're never forced to act all buddy-buddy with him... though he does act friendly towards you pretty much regardless (because he cares about Clem).
He was just being nice to her. He even left her in middle of walkers, but this didnt change her opinion about Ben.It doesnt really matter that their friendship was shit from outside perspective, it still meant something to her.
Umm... yes. That was entirely the point of what I said. You're kind of just proving me correct here. If she was still friends with Ben despite all this, then why can she supposedly not realistically feel fond of Kenny? It really makes no sense.
IF you help his family, and appeal to family in that conversation, he helps you. If he really cared about Clementine, he would have helped to look for her, no matter how shitty treatment Lee gave to Kenny.
Clearly that isn't actually true... given what we know about the relationship moving forward. Kenny was just making a bad decision because of other emotions. Afterwards, he expresses nothing but desire to save Clementine. For how hyped up he was about his boat plan, he put looking for Clementine above going after Vernon and the boat. He doesn't even raise an argument for abandoning Clementine in order to get the boat back. He cared more about Clementine. He doesn't let Lee help him with Ben in the alleyway because he wanted Lee to go get Clementine. He expresses clear excitement and pride when it is revealed to him that Lee did in fact succeed in rescuing Clementine. One example of him showing clouded judgement in his vindictive nature towards Lee doesn't mean he did not care about Clementine. And again, simply what we do know about their relationship, we can assume certain things here. Assuming that he totally did not care about her is not one of those things. That would be illogical based upon the story.
I suppose you can choose to believe what you want to believe, but it is ultimately your own fault for choosing not to reason with the legitimacy of the story.
In my game, Clementine didnt like Kenny... That was the whole point why i was pissed off. She doesnt want to go north because she doesnt believe there is anything, yet Kenny forces you to go there and once you get a chance to go back, Clementine suddenly about her previous opinions about Kenny and his plans. That was very stupid and made no sense not being able to leave Kenny behind.
Again, it doesn't matter what you felt about him. It makes zero sense to think the story needs to be tailored to you like that. We're talking about a story here, not real life. You're not going to have a complete level of control over such a major part of the story. If everyone demanded the ability to separate from certain characters whenever they felt like it, that would be absolutely ridiculous. I mean... that kind of goes without saying, doesn't it?
Bad story.
I wouldn't say so. That is a separate conversation, though.
You either have the ability to clearly show an emotional connection to Kenny, or you can act more indifferent.
I already stated that… more calling someone old friend doesnt have as clear meaning as saying i dont really know him that well. I can call people from school old friends, even though i havent seen them in years and have no idea what they are like anymore. I can call them old friends, or just state the fact that i actually dont know them that well and both of them are valid, but other is just more harsh answer, even if its true.
They are still there... constantly. There is basically no possible way that you're going to avoid forming particular feelings about that individual. Then when you take into context the environment Kenny and Clementine were surviving in... come on. You're being blatantly obtuse here. There is no denying the legitimacy of a past relationship.
You are speaking as if everyone would eventually be fr… [view original content]
And I already stated that there really isn't any way you can measure that/ you're just grasping at straws. The way Clementine says "We're old friends" wasn't a "meh" type of response. She said it in an endearing sort of tone, and had a smile on her face. You saying that doesn't mean as much as Clementine saying "I don't really know him that well" isn't really based on anything. It seriously does not matter anyway. The point is the fact that both answers can't be true. That wouldn't make sense. So either one is a lie, or both are true in a personal cannon. You can't just cherry pick which answer fits your agenda and then ignore the other.
Why is it so hard to accept that they didnt know each other that well?
No, I am not doing that at all. You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't specify any type of relationship. Having a relationship doesn't mean it has to be a friendly one. Obviously in Kenny and Clementine's case we can assume that they had a friendly relationship simply based on how happy they were to see one another at the start of season two.
Yet she can say that she doesnt really know him that well and call him a jerk? Good friends indeed.
For all we know, Clementine could have understood what Kenny was going through. She may have even been mad with him in the moment, but that doesn't mean that she would have to hold onto that anger. There is no way we can possibly know how Clementine perceived this situation, and we don't know the actual implications of those perceptions. Don't tell me I'm being delusional when you have no clue what you're talking about.
He was her friend and she surely defended him when they were voting, while Kenny wanted to leave him behind to die. Why would she just forgive some person who wanted her friend dead? If someone wanted to murder your friend, could you forgive that?
What about the fact that Lee can agree with Kenny in leaving Ben behind, despite Clementine's protest? Clearly Clementine doesn't hold this against Lee in the case of this happening. So again, your argument doesn't really have anything to stand on. Its just speculation. Speculating is fine... but we have to keep in mind that these two were actually legitimately happy to see each other again at the start of season two. This implies that they were at least somewhat fond of one another. So the idea of Clementine holding some kind of lasting grudge is pretty far fetched... and it is certainly arguably that it didn't leave any sort of lasting blemish upon their relationship.
Clementine remembers that, or so the game states. I already answered last part of that.
100% speculation. Outside of knowing they had a certain fondness for one another in season one, we don't really know any specifics. Regardless, how you act upon that pre existing relationship is up to you as the player. You can act fairly indifferent moving forward if that really floats your boat. You're never forced to act all buddy-buddy with him... though he does act friendly towards you pretty much regardless (because he cares about Clem).
Assumption based on all the evidence available, which is also supported by dialogue "i dont really know him that well".
Umm... yes. That was entirely the point of what I said. You're kind of just proving me correct here. If she was still friends with Ben despite all this, then why can she supposedly not realistically feel fond of Kenny? It really makes no sense.
Kenny wanted her friend dead, Ben paniced and saved his own ass. See the difference?
Clearly that isn't actually true... given what we know about the relationship moving forward.
So Jane cared about Clementine from very begining, because we know she cares about her later? That makes no sense... As soon as his boat plan was fucked up, he changed his mind.
Kenny was just making a bad decision because of other emotions.
Yeah, like always. It easy to always blame mistakes Kenny make on emotions and that magically makes it ok. Even your hero Kenny disagrees with you on this.
He doesn't let Lee help him with Ben in the alleyway because he wanted Lee to go get Clementine.
Kenny was suicidal. "Lee... Lee its okay" after he locks the door. Didnt want to drag down Lee also.
Again, it doesn't matter what you felt about him. It makes zero sense to think the story needs to be tailored to you like that. We're talking about a story here, not real life. You're not going to have a complete level of control over such a major part of the story. If everyone demanded the ability to separate from certain characters whenever they felt like it, that would be absolutely ridiculous. I mean... that kind of goes without saying, doesn't it?
You are missing the point here. If Jane suddenly risked her life for random people she just met, that would be stupid aswell. It was bad writing, which ignored every decision Clementine had made about Kenny and his plans so far. It made no sense at all.
I already stated that calling someone old friend doesnt have as clear meaning as saying i dont really know him that well. I can call people … morefrom school old friends, even though i havent seen them in years and have no idea what they are like anymore. I can call them old friends, or just state the fact that i actually dont know them that well and both of them are valid, but other is just more harsh answer, even if its true.
And I already stated that there really isn't any way you can measure that/ you're just grasping at straws. Feel free to think that way. There is nothing to back it up. There is nothing to take away from the idea that Clementine did see Kenny as her friend. Based on her recent reactions to Kenny leading up to that scene (and the interactions following it), it is certainly a completely valid idea. You can't tell me that my Clementine didn't view Kenny as a legit old friend just because there was an alternative to say o… [view original content]
Why is it so hard to accept that they didnt know each other that well?
You're not even trying anymore. Why are you even wasting your time? Either respond to what I'm telling you or leave it be. It really looks like you have nothing left to say on this matter. Your points did nothing to invalidate the fact that Clementine could have been completely truthful in saying that Kenny and herself were old friends.
By the way, I would re-check the top paragraph again. I edited what I had originally said to make it a little more clear.
Yet she can say that she doesnt really know him that well and call him a jerk? Good friends indeed.
Determinate statements. As we have been over, you can take the opposite road. All you're really doing is proving the fact that the relationship was not forced upon you. You're not forced to be buddy-buddy with Kenny. Why we're still having this conversation is beyond me, considering you're basically admitting that you have the power as the player to push yourself away from being his pal.
He was her friend and she surely defended him when they were voting, while Kenny wanted to leave him behind to die. Why would she just forgive some person who wanted her friend dead? If someone wanted to murder your friend, could you forgive that?
Did you read a single word of what I said? Seeing as you completely cut out an entire paragraph's worth.. I'm assuming you didn't. Here... I'll copy and paste what I had previously said:
"There is absolutely nothing for that logic to stand on at all. You're completely ignoring the other side of the coin.If one my friends just found out that one of my other friends was the reason behind getting his entire family killed, I would totally level with that friend's anger.For all we know, Clementine could have understood what Kenny was going through.She may have even been mad with him in the moment, but that doesn't necessarily mean she held onto that anger.There is no way we can possibly know how Clementine perceived this situation, and we don't know the actual implications of those perceptions. Don't tell me I'm being delusional when you have no clue what you're talking about."
Clementine remembers that, or so the game states.
Not in the sense that we know how she felt about Lee voting against Ben. Even with Lee siding with Kenny all the way on Ben, she shows no signs of holding this against Lee in her memories.
I already answered last part of that.
As far as the Ben situation causing Clementine to dislike Kenny? You tried, yes. I gave you counter arguments as to why your answer wasn't very valid. Would you care to address the actual points I made?
Assumption based on all the evidence available, which is also supported by dialogue "i dont really know him that well".
You're ignoring everything I'm telling you. Awesome. I love these conversations.
Kenny wanted her friend dead, Ben paniced and saved his own ass. See the difference?
That isn't the point. The point is that there was never an obvious friendly relationship between her and Ben in the past, and yet she still openly considered him her friend. Somehow you don't have a problem with this, but yet you have a problem with the potentiality of Kenny and Clementine having a friendship. Its hypocritical... unless you're now back tracking to the point where you only think Clementine and Kenny should not have been friends based only on the Ben issue. If that's in fact the case, then you are easily still incorrect given the fact that we have no clue how Clementine perceived that issue, and we have no clue what implications came of those perceptions.
So Jane cared about Clementine from very begining, because we know she cares about her later? That makes no sense...
That wasn't the argument I was making at all. Obviously we're not talking about the very beginning. We're talking about hours of difference between decision making. The example you brought up fits what I said absolutely nowhere. We're simply talking about how Kenny felt about rescuing Clementine. That's it..
As soon as his boat plan was fucked up, he changed his mind.
Okay, and it was arguably telling of how much he cared about Clementine considering the fact that he prioritized her over Vernon getting away with the group's boat. He made it clear that he still wanted to go after Vernon (after first rescuing Clementine).
Even if you want to choose to get nothing out of this, this is another example of something that can be seen as Kenny caring about Clementine. You picking and choosing what you want to believe in order to suit your agenda is not helping your argument in the least. (And remember, the game clearly showed that Clementine and Kenny had a past fondness for one another by them showing us their heartwarming reunion in episode two).
Kenny was suicidal. "Lee... Lee its okay" after he locks the door. Didnt want to drag down Lee also.
Let's take a look at the dialogue before that:
Kenny: "Get the fuck out of here."
Lee: "What..?"
Kenny: "Go back! She needs you Lee."
Lee: (shakes head) "Kenny..!?"
Kenny: "This is not a discussion!"
Lee: "Hell no man, I'm not leaving!"
Kenny: "What'd I just say!?"
Lee: "Let's get Ben and get out of here!"
(Lee gets shut behind door)
Lee: "What the fuck Kenny!?"
Kenny: "Lee... Lee, it's okay."
Lee: "No Ken... no it's not!"
Kenny: "It's just something I gotta do... you know that."
Kenny: "Go get that girl!"
I'm sorry, but if you don't see that as possible evidence for Kenny caring about rescuing Clementine then you're only believing what you want to believe.
You are missing the point here. If Jane suddenly risked her life for random people she just met, that would be stupid aswell. It was bad writing, which ignored every decision Clementine had made about Kenny and his plans so far. It made no sense at all.
I'm not missing the point at all. You can't get past the fact that you didn't have complete level of control over the direction of the story. That doesn't make the story bad, that doesn't make the relationship between Kenny and Clementine "forced".
I don't even want to argue over whether the writing was bad or not. That is a different discussion. The point remains that this has nothing to do with a "forced" Kenny-Clementine relationship.
And I already stated that there really isn't any way you can measure that/ you're just grasping at straws. The way Clementine says "We're ol… mored friends" wasn't a "meh" type of response. She said it in an endearing sort of tone, and had a smile on her face. You saying that doesn't mean as much as Clementine saying "I don't really know him that well" isn't really based on anything. It seriously does not matter anyway. The point is the fact that both answers can't be true. That wouldn't make sense. So either one is a lie, or both are true in a personal cannon. You can't just cherry pick which answer fits your agenda and then ignore the other.
Why is it so hard to accept that they didnt know each other that well?
No, I am not doing that at all. You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't specify any type of relationship. Having a relationship doesn't mean it has to be a friendly one. Obviously in Kenny and Clementine's case we can assu… [view original content]
It really looks like you have nothing left to say on this matter. Your points did nothing to invalidate the fact that Clementine could have been completely truthful in saying that Kenny and herself were old friends.
Like i've said many times before. Saying that "i dont know him that well" has more obvious meaning that saying "we are old friends", since you can call pretty much anyone from your past old friend, just simply because you were together once. My example of old friends from school should have been clear enough about this.
Kenny was a friend of Clementine, not close friend. Unfortunaly english language doesnt have different words for finnish words and they both translate to "friend". I have never denied that they werent friends, just that they werent good ones, since they didnt share their deepest feeling etc, so they would really know each other.
Determinate statements. As we have been over, you can take the opposite road. All you're really doing is proving the fact that the relationship was not forced upon you. You're not forced to be buddy-buddy with Kenny. Why we're still having this conversation is beyond me, considering you're basically admitting that you have the power as the player to push yourself away from being his pal.
It was forced exactly for these reasons. You can push him away, but the game makes ignores these choises and makes Clementine Kenny's friend anyway. Others also treat you as if you are his friend, no matter how you dislike Kenny as Clementine through dialogues and actions.
You're completely ignoring the other side of the coin.If one my friends just found out that one of my other friends was the reason behind getting his entire family killed, I would totally level with that friend's anger. For all we know, Clementine could have understood what Kenny was going through. She may have even been mad with him in the moment, but that doesn't necessarily mean she held onto that anger. There is no way we can possibly know how Clementine perceived this situation, and we don't know the actual implications of those perceptions.
Clementine was 8 years old. Do you think she understood revenge completely as a concept? There is no way to know anything, its all just assumptions and some are better than others.
Not in the sense that we know how she felt about Lee voting against Ben. Even with Lee siding with Kenny all the way on Ben, she shows no signs of holding this against Lee in her memories.
Yeah, because writers.
there was never an obvious friendly relationship between her and Ben in the past,
She considers him a friend. He gave her stickers to her damn walkie talkie. They obviously were very close. (sarcasm warning). You should take into account that Clementine was pretty damn young and could have been naive enough to consider someone her friend simply because they were nice to her at some point.
Okay, and it was arguably telling of how much he cared about Clementine considering the fact that he prioritized her over Vernon getting away with the group's boat. He made it clear that he still wanted to go after Vernon (after first rescuing Clementine).
I dont see it that way. I see it as his plan to escape with a boat was ruined and he had nothing else to do. He also saw that they lost the boat because of Clementine got kidnapped and not saving her would nullify everything they did.
Kenny: "Lee... Lee, it's okay."
Lee: "No Ken... no it's not!"
Kenny: "It's just something I gotta do... you know that."
Why does he sound like he is accepting his fate and is ready to die? They could have both survived easily, but he chose to die there instead. And yes, he did care about saving Clementine, after they lost the boat because Lee and x amount of people went to look for her. If they didnt save Clementine, they lost the boat for nothing.
Why is it so hard to accept that they didnt know each other that well?
You're not even trying anymore. Why are you even wasting your… more time? Either respond to what I'm telling you or leave it be. It really looks like you have nothing left to say on this matter. Your points did nothing to invalidate the fact that Clementine could have been completely truthful in saying that Kenny and herself were old friends.
By the way, I would re-check the top paragraph again. I edited what I had originally said to make it a little more clear.
Yet she can say that she doesnt really know him that well and call him a jerk? Good friends indeed.
Determinate statements. As we have been over, you can take the opposite road. All you're really doing is proving the fact that the relationship was not forced upon you. You're not forced to be buddy-buddy with Kenny. Why we're still having this conversation is beyond me, considering you're basicall… [view original content]
We don't know this to be true at all. We have been over this already.
Saying he is an old friend doenst have as obvioust meaning as … more"i dont know him that well actually".
Regardless, most normal human beings who spend that much time around one another are going to form some kind of bond.
I guess its just us finns. And how did i change my story? (its 9am here so im pretty tired)
Yeah, no one has, because that is completely fucking unheard of.
what is that even supposed to mean?
You're really a waste of time.
What you're telling me is your own interpretation. We have NO evidence of how Clementine perceived the situation.
So please, don't tell me that I'm choosing to blindly ignore something that isn't even remotely evident.
My previous statement still stands.
Just because you didn't agree with what Kenny was doing doesn't mean you should have had the option to leave him. There was a sto… [view original content]
Clementine Knew Kenny for being part of their group... She didnt know Kenny as she can state. Jane talked with Clementine in those 3 days as much as Kenny talked with her in 2 years.
It really looks like you have nothing left to say on this matter. Your points did nothing to invalidate the fact that Clementine could have … morebeen completely truthful in saying that Kenny and herself were old friends.
Like i've said many times before. Saying that "i dont know him that well" has more obvious meaning that saying "we are old friends", since you can call pretty much anyone from your past old friend, just simply because you were together once. My example of old friends from school should have been clear enough about this.
Kenny was a friend of Clementine, not close friend. Unfortunaly english language doesnt have different words for finnish words and they both translate to "friend". I have never denied that they werent friends, just that they werent good ones, since they didnt share their deepest feeling etc, so they would really know each other.
Determinate statements. As we have been over, you can take the opposite … [view original content]
and again full defense for jane and if kenny farts he should be killed in your eyes for using biological weapons...
Prink has a point jane can kill travis and want to abandon sarah and wants to get rid of aj kill kenny robs arvo who went back for revenge because of that and THAT is right in your eyes c'mon dude
calling kenny dangerous and jane the holy grale who wants to get rid of all clems friends kill or abandon them is right C 'MON
Oh yeah thats right we were done talking because you only want to make a point about a game we all know very well but in your way we are all wrong... C'MON
Unlike Kenny, Jane doesnt have anger issues. Kenny even says "i oughta slap you" if you say Lee shouldnt have tried to save her. He punches … moreClementine if she tries to stop him from beating Arvo (accident of course, but thats what people can cause in anger). He ignores Clementine when she asks for help, if she falls through the ice.
Kenny's anger issues is one thing i dont like.
Jane left her sister because she was suicidal for months and she couldnt save her at the roof. She left the group because she didnt want to feel like shit after people she cares about dies. Pushing Kenny to the edge was stupid and unnecessary, but writers decided that Clementine doesnt care about her previous opinions about Kenny and decides to not leave him behind.
I dont really care about the baby, but it surely wasnt in any great danger inside the car. Walkers ignored even Clementine while she was shooting them, so they couldnt have done anything and the ba… [view original content]
There were months we didn't see in seas 1 and Duck was her friend so your point 1 is wrong
ben almost got her killed and was also respons… moreible for ducks death and katjaas because of that
your point 3 i laughed because your precious jane wants to leave almost everyone behind and kenny didn't leave him behind so your point is irrelevant
and what is it with you kenny hate because you can also say he is your friend but i never see you saying anything like that
sad...
Prink has a point jane can kill travis and want to abandon sarah and wants to get rid of aj kill kenny robs arvo who went back for revenge because of that and THAT is right in your eyes c'mon dude
I've never said that Jane is by todays standards good or moral person, generally.
Kenny is dangerous to people around... He got walter killed, even if you tell him not shoot, because Carver would just shoot someone, but he still goes for it. And if you dont say anything, he gets Alvin killed also. Nothing stopped Carver from shooting Clementine after Kenny shot Johnny, if Clementine chose to help Carlos.
The group needed those medicine. Taking them wasnt right, but it was necessary, just like when Kenny stole supplies from the Stranger.
and again full defense for jane and if kenny farts he should be killed in your eyes for using biological weapons...
Prink has a point jan… moree can kill travis and want to abandon sarah and wants to get rid of aj kill kenny robs arvo who went back for revenge because of that and THAT is right in your eyes c'mon dude
calling kenny dangerous and jane the holy grale who wants to get rid of all clems friends kill or abandon them is right C 'MON
Oh yeah thats right we were done talking because you only want to make a point about a game we all know very well but in your way we are all wrong... C'MON
I like how off-screen interactions with Clem and Kenny are an absolute impossibility, but Christa talking shit on Kenny off-screen is presented as fact.
I'll try to explain this very simple Belan.
Yeah... simple is about the right word for it..
Like it's been said many times, th… moreey didnt talk much in season 1. She talked with Kenny only 3 times as far as we know
Irrelevant. We're talking about two secondary characters with realistically having the ability to have an offscreen relationship. Nothing to debate here.
Kenny wanted to murder/leave her friend, Ben. Cant really think Clementine would consider Kenny the best guy after this.
Clementine never saw Kenny give Lee the little "let him go" glance during the bell tower scene, so the whole murder thing is kind of out the window. We don't know how Clementine felt towards Kenny at all about this issue, so you telling me what I can and can't think is kind of ridiculous.
Kenny wanted to leave Omid behind and Clementine spent 16 months with Christa. Christa and Kenny werent the best friends, so i cant possib… [view original content]
I'll try to explain this very simple Belan.
Yeah... simple is about the right word for it..
Like it's been said many times, th… moreey didnt talk much in season 1. She talked with Kenny only 3 times as far as we know
Irrelevant. We're talking about two secondary characters with realistically having the ability to have an offscreen relationship. Nothing to debate here.
Kenny wanted to murder/leave her friend, Ben. Cant really think Clementine would consider Kenny the best guy after this.
Clementine never saw Kenny give Lee the little "let him go" glance during the bell tower scene, so the whole murder thing is kind of out the window. We don't know how Clementine felt towards Kenny at all about this issue, so you telling me what I can and can't think is kind of ridiculous.
Kenny wanted to leave Omid behind and Clementine spent 16 months with Christa. Christa and Kenny werent the best friends, so i cant possib… [view original content]
I like how off-screen interactions with Clem and Kenny are an absolute impossibility, but Christa talking shit on Kenny off-screen is presented as fact.
The only case when they needed medicine was when russia group shoot Luke´s leg ... if Jane didn´t threaten Arvo, there will be no need for that. Sorry for bad english
Prink has a point jane can kill travis and want to abandon sarah and wants to get rid of aj kill kenny robs arvo who went back for revenge b… moreecause of that and THAT is right in your eyes c'mon dude
I've never said that Jane is by todays standards good or moral person, generally.
Kenny is dangerous to people around... He got walter killed, even if you tell him not shoot, because Carver would just shoot someone, but he still goes for it. And if you dont say anything, he gets Alvin killed also. Nothing stopped Carver from shooting Clementine after Kenny shot Johnny, if Clementine chose to help Carlos.
The group needed those medicine. Taking them wasnt right, but it was necessary, just like when Kenny stole supplies from the Stranger.
The group needed those medicine.
The only case when they needed medicine was when russia group shoot Luke´s leg ... if Jane didn´t threaten Arvo, there will be no need for that. Sorry for bad english
And what about Kenny's eye, Rebecca giving birth, Luke being beaten? None of them didnt have any use for medicine?
And they dont rob the group because of Jane...
You have answer for everything to make Jane look good and Kenny bad ... I readed nearly all your comments in this post and you are giant Kenny hater. I like both of them, why you cant ??? Yes Kenny had som anger issues but after his wife was killer, his son was bitten, his new girfriend is dead and only one who he cares about is AJ and Clem. So telling him that AJ is dead would piss off everywhone.
In my ending, I shoot Kenny and stayed with Jane but that doesn´t mean she is better.
It doesnt matter that Kenny has gone through a lot and has his reasons to be angry and irrational. He doesnt get any extra sympathy from me because of that. He just put others around him in danger too many times (even got Walter killed) and it was time to either leave him behind or kill him, which he forces me to do. To me, Kenny was just another Lilly & Ben situation.
Jane is more stable and safer choice than Kenny for many reason. The most important one must be that Kenny forced you to go north, even if you say no. He went on suicide mission to find a place he isnt sure exists and he forced Clementine to come with him, even if she said no to Kenny's plan.
You have answer for everything to make Jane look good and Kenny bad ... I readed nearly all your comments in this post and you are giant Ken… moreny hater. I like both of them, why you cant ??? Yes Kenny had som anger issues but after his wife was killer, his son was bitten, his new girfriend is dead and only one who he cares about is AJ and Clem. So telling him that AJ is dead would piss off everywhone.
In my ending, I shoot Kenny and stayed with Jane but that doesn´t mean she is better.
And what if my Clementine wanted to go north ? Thats my only problem with Jane ending, why they come back ?! They come so far, many people died and the whole season Clementine is searching for Christa (she might be in Wellington) ... so why come back ? Even the episode is called: No going back !
It doesnt matter that Kenny has gone through a lot and has his reasons to be angry and irrational. He doesnt get any extra sympathy from me … morebecause of that. He just put others around him in danger too many times (even got Walter killed) and it was time to either leave him behind or kill him, which he forces me to do. To me, Kenny was just another Lilly & Ben situation.
Jane is more stable and safer choice than Kenny for many reason. The most important one must be that Kenny forced you to go north, even if you say no. He went on suicide mission to find a place he isnt sure exists and he forced Clementine to come with him, even if she said no to Kenny's plan.
And what if my Clementine wanted to go north ? Thats my only problem with Jane ending, why they come back ?! They come so far, many people d… moreied and the whole season Clementine is searching for Christa (she might be in Wellington) ... so why come back ? Even the episode is called: No going back !
Clementine and Kenny are the last two standing from the original group and both thought the other was for going on two years. Being the last two left can form a bond like no other, let alone being reunited after two years apart.
In my playthrough at least, at the end of S1E4 Kenny says to Lee "You and Clem are the only family I have left." or something along those lines.
The narrative requires the two characters to be friends, which I was more than fine with, but some people just don't like it.
I'm glad their relationship was no where near as forced as Jane's. Why was there no option to say "Can we just carry on in silence please?"
Jane takes her back to south, because they would just freeze to death in north and there was no reason to stay there. Howe's also had supplies for them and the baby, so why not check it out?
Its only forced because they ran into each other because of the Z-A to help each other survive and guess what at the end of seas 2 they both can still be alive
Howes could very wel been run over robbed clean and undefendable by just 2 persons if the swarm returned
You make everything Jane does sound like the best idea ever , but the majority doesn't agree
Jane takes her back to south, because they would just freeze to death in north and there was no reason to stay there. Howe's also had supplies for them and the baby, so why not check it out?
Howes could very wel been run over robbed clean and undefendable by just 2 persons if the swarm returned
You make everything Jane does sound like the best idea ever , but the majority doesn't agree
Its only forced because they ran into each other because of the Z-A to help each other survive and guess what at the end of seas 2 they both can still be alive
its not so hard to understand is it?
Your every message is hard to understand, since you have problems forming proper sentences.
… moreYou said they can be alive in end of season 2, but Kenny & Jane are clearly dead. Also, this was the only thing worth answering in your message.
Comments
And I already stated that there really isn't any way you can measure that/ you're just grasping at straws. Feel free to think that way. There is nothing to back it up. There is nothing to take away from the idea that Clementine did see Kenny as her friend. Based on her recent reactions to Kenny leading up to that scene (and the interactions following it), it is certainly a completely valid idea. You can't tell me that my Clementine didn't view Kenny as a legit old friend just because there was an alternative to say otherwise.
No, I am not doing that at all. You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't specify any type of relationship. Having a relationship doesn't mean it has to be a friendly one. Obviously in Kenny and Clementine's case we can assume that they had a friendly relationship simply based on how happy they were to see one another at the start of season two.
There is absolutely nothing for that logic to stand on at all. You're completely ignoring the other side of the coin. If one my friends just found out that one of my other friends was the reason behind getting his entire family killed, I would totally level with that friend's anger. For all we know, Clementine could have understood what Kenny was going through. She may have even been mad with him in the moment, but that doesn't necessarily mean she held onto that anger. There is no way we can possibly know how Clementine perceived this situation, and we don't know the actual implications of those perceptions. Don't tell me I'm being delusional when you have no clue what you're talking about.
What about the fact that Lee can agree with Kenny in leaving Ben behind, despite Clementine's protest? Clearly Clementine doesn't hold this against Lee in the case of this happening. So again, your argument doesn't really have anything to stand on. Its just complete speculation. We have to keep in mind that these two were actually legitimately happy to see each other again at the start of season two. This implies that they were at least somewhat fond of one another. So the idea of Clementine holding some kind of lasting grudge is a little far fetched... and it is certainly arguable that it didn't leave any sort of lasting blemish upon their relationship.
You're just guessing. Outside of knowing they had a certain fondness for one another in season one, we don't really know any specifics. Regardless, how you act upon that pre existing relationship is up to you as the player. You can act fairly indifferent moving forward if that really floats your boat. You're never forced to act all buddy-buddy with him... though he does act friendly towards you pretty much regardless (because he cares about Clem).
Umm... yes. That was entirely the point of what I said. You're kind of just proving me correct here. If she was still friends with Ben despite all this, then why can she supposedly not realistically feel fond of Kenny? It really makes no sense.
Clearly that isn't actually true... given what we know about the relationship moving forward. Kenny was just making a bad decision because of other emotions. Afterwards, he expresses nothing but desire to save Clementine. For how hyped up he was about his boat plan, he put looking for Clementine above going after Vernon and the boat. He doesn't even raise an argument for abandoning Clementine in order to get the boat back. He cared more about Clementine. He doesn't let Lee help him with Ben in the alleyway because he wanted Lee to go get Clementine. He expresses clear excitement and pride when it is revealed to him that Lee did in fact succeed in rescuing Clementine. One example of him showing clouded judgement in his vindictive nature towards Lee doesn't mean he did not care about Clementine. And again, simply what we do know about their relationship, we can assume certain things here. Assuming that he totally did not care about her is not one of those things. That would be illogical based upon the story.
I suppose you can choose to believe what you want to believe, but it is ultimately your own fault for choosing not to reason with the legitimacy of the story.
Again, it doesn't matter what you felt about him. It makes zero sense to think the story needs to be tailored to you like that. We're talking about a story here, not real life. You're not going to have a complete level of control over such a major part of the story. If everyone demanded the ability to separate from certain characters whenever they felt like it, that would be absolutely ridiculous. I mean... that kind of goes without saying, doesn't it?
I wouldn't say so. That is a separate conversation, though.
Why is it so hard to accept that they didnt know each other that well?
Yet she can say that she doesnt really know him that well and call him a jerk? Good friends indeed.
He was her friend and she surely defended him when they were voting, while Kenny wanted to leave him behind to die. Why would she just forgive some person who wanted her friend dead? If someone wanted to murder your friend, could you forgive that?
Clementine remembers that, or so the game states. I already answered last part of that.
Assumption based on all the evidence available, which is also supported by dialogue "i dont really know him that well".
Kenny wanted her friend dead, Ben paniced and saved his own ass. See the difference?
So Jane cared about Clementine from very begining, because we know she cares about her later? That makes no sense... As soon as his boat plan was fucked up, he changed his mind.
Yeah, like always. It easy to always blame mistakes Kenny make on emotions and that magically makes it ok. Even your hero Kenny disagrees with you on this.
Kenny was suicidal. "Lee... Lee its okay" after he locks the door. Didnt want to drag down Lee also.
You are missing the point here. If Jane suddenly risked her life for random people she just met, that would be stupid aswell. It was bad writing, which ignored every decision Clementine had made about Kenny and his plans so far. It made no sense at all.
You're not even trying anymore. Why are you even wasting your time? Either respond to what I'm telling you or leave it be. It really looks like you have nothing left to say on this matter. Your points did nothing to invalidate the fact that Clementine could have been completely truthful in saying that Kenny and herself were old friends.
By the way, I would re-check the top paragraph again. I edited what I had originally said to make it a little more clear.
Determinate statements. As we have been over, you can take the opposite road. All you're really doing is proving the fact that the relationship was not forced upon you. You're not forced to be buddy-buddy with Kenny. Why we're still having this conversation is beyond me, considering you're basically admitting that you have the power as the player to push yourself away from being his pal.
Did you read a single word of what I said? Seeing as you completely cut out an entire paragraph's worth.. I'm assuming you didn't. Here... I'll copy and paste what I had previously said:
"There is absolutely nothing for that logic to stand on at all. You're completely ignoring the other side of the coin.If one my friends just found out that one of my other friends was the reason behind getting his entire family killed, I would totally level with that friend's anger. For all we know, Clementine could have understood what Kenny was going through. She may have even been mad with him in the moment, but that doesn't necessarily mean she held onto that anger. There is no way we can possibly know how Clementine perceived this situation, and we don't know the actual implications of those perceptions. Don't tell me I'm being delusional when you have no clue what you're talking about."
Not in the sense that we know how she felt about Lee voting against Ben. Even with Lee siding with Kenny all the way on Ben, she shows no signs of holding this against Lee in her memories.
As far as the Ben situation causing Clementine to dislike Kenny? You tried, yes. I gave you counter arguments as to why your answer wasn't very valid. Would you care to address the actual points I made?
You're ignoring everything I'm telling you. Awesome. I love these conversations.
That isn't the point. The point is that there was never an obvious friendly relationship between her and Ben in the past, and yet she still openly considered him her friend. Somehow you don't have a problem with this, but yet you have a problem with the potentiality of Kenny and Clementine having a friendship. Its hypocritical... unless you're now back tracking to the point where you only think Clementine and Kenny should not have been friends based only on the Ben issue. If that's in fact the case, then you are easily still incorrect given the fact that we have no clue how Clementine perceived that issue, and we have no clue what implications came of those perceptions.
That wasn't the argument I was making at all. Obviously we're not talking about the very beginning. We're talking about hours of difference between decision making. The example you brought up fits what I said absolutely nowhere. We're simply talking about how Kenny felt about rescuing Clementine. That's it..
Okay, and it was arguably telling of how much he cared about Clementine considering the fact that he prioritized her over Vernon getting away with the group's boat. He made it clear that he still wanted to go after Vernon (after first rescuing Clementine).
Even if you want to choose to get nothing out of this, this is another example of something that can be seen as Kenny caring about Clementine. You picking and choosing what you want to believe in order to suit your agenda is not helping your argument in the least. (And remember, the game clearly showed that Clementine and Kenny had a past fondness for one another by them showing us their heartwarming reunion in episode two).
Let's take a look at the dialogue before that:
Kenny: "Get the fuck out of here."
Lee: "What..?"
Kenny: "Go back! She needs you Lee."
Lee: (shakes head) "Kenny..!?"
Kenny: "This is not a discussion!"
Lee: "Hell no man, I'm not leaving!"
Kenny: "What'd I just say!?"
Lee: "Let's get Ben and get out of here!"
(Lee gets shut behind door)
Lee: "What the fuck Kenny!?"
Kenny: "Lee... Lee, it's okay."
Lee: "No Ken... no it's not!"
Kenny: "It's just something I gotta do... you know that."
Kenny: "Go get that girl!"
I'm sorry, but if you don't see that as possible evidence for Kenny caring about rescuing Clementine then you're only believing what you want to believe.
I'm not missing the point at all. You can't get past the fact that you didn't have complete level of control over the direction of the story. That doesn't make the story bad, that doesn't make the relationship between Kenny and Clementine "forced".
I don't even want to argue over whether the writing was bad or not. That is a different discussion. The point remains that this has nothing to do with a "forced" Kenny-Clementine relationship.
Like i've said many times before. Saying that "i dont know him that well" has more obvious meaning that saying "we are old friends", since you can call pretty much anyone from your past old friend, just simply because you were together once. My example of old friends from school should have been clear enough about this.
Kenny was a friend of Clementine, not close friend. Unfortunaly english language doesnt have different words for finnish words and they both translate to "friend". I have never denied that they werent friends, just that they werent good ones, since they didnt share their deepest feeling etc, so they would really know each other.
It was forced exactly for these reasons. You can push him away, but the game makes ignores these choises and makes Clementine Kenny's friend anyway. Others also treat you as if you are his friend, no matter how you dislike Kenny as Clementine through dialogues and actions.
Clementine was 8 years old. Do you think she understood revenge completely as a concept? There is no way to know anything, its all just assumptions and some are better than others.
Yeah, because writers.
She considers him a friend. He gave her stickers to her damn walkie talkie. They obviously were very close. (sarcasm warning). You should take into account that Clementine was pretty damn young and could have been naive enough to consider someone her friend simply because they were nice to her at some point.
I dont see it that way. I see it as his plan to escape with a boat was ruined and he had nothing else to do. He also saw that they lost the boat because of Clementine got kidnapped and not saving her would nullify everything they did.
Lee: "No Ken... no it's not!"
Kenny: "It's just something I gotta do... you know that."
Why does he sound like he is accepting his fate and is ready to die? They could have both survived easily, but he chose to die there instead. And yes, he did care about saving Clementine, after they lost the boat because Lee and x amount of people went to look for her. If they didnt save Clementine, they lost the boat for nothing.
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Sure she huggs a stranger who wasn't her friend sure sure
Why won't you accept that clem and kenny were friends?
Are you THAT stubborn ? MAN ! ! ! !
This thread gives me more reasons to like you zyke.
I'd say you're right about everything you say in the entire post.
and again full defense for jane and if kenny farts he should be killed in your eyes for using biological weapons...
Prink has a point jane can kill travis and want to abandon sarah and wants to get rid of aj kill kenny robs arvo who went back for revenge because of that and THAT is right in your eyes c'mon dude
calling kenny dangerous and jane the holy grale who wants to get rid of all clems friends kill or abandon them is right C 'MON
Oh yeah thats right we were done talking because you only want to make a point about a game we all know very well but in your way we are all wrong... C'MON
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It's not a "forced friendship". If it feels "forced", it's because the 2 characters actually were supposed to be friends in the story.
I've never said that Jane is by todays standards good or moral person, generally.
Kenny is dangerous to people around... He got walter killed, even if you tell him not shoot, because Carver would just shoot someone, but he still goes for it. And if you dont say anything, he gets Alvin killed also. Nothing stopped Carver from shooting Clementine after Kenny shot Johnny, if Clementine chose to help Carlos.
The group needed those medicine. Taking them wasnt right, but it was necessary, just like when Kenny stole supplies from the Stranger.
Sarcasm or not? I cant remember what you are like
I agree, I hated having Kenny shoved down my throat this season. You can't just blindly act on emotions and get away with it like that.
I like how off-screen interactions with Clem and Kenny are an absolute impossibility, but Christa talking shit on Kenny off-screen is presented as fact.
Oh wow... this conversation was deleted for some reason.
I like how mods deleted our conversation, which wasnt offensive or anything, for no fucking reason... Im done with this debate.
Did someone else branch off of it and say some things they shouldn't have?
I don't know why else it would have gotten deleted.
Well i saw that blind sniper deleted some of my comments because they were "offensive", so it could possibly be that?
The only case when they needed medicine was when russia group shoot Luke´s leg ... if Jane didn´t threaten Arvo, there will be no need for that. Sorry for bad english
And what about Kenny's eye, Rebecca giving birth, Luke being beaten? None of them didnt have any use for medicine?
And they dont rob the group because of Jane...
Because of who ? Hmmm
Thats what Arvo's group did, rob people. Just knowing that Clem has a group made them a target.
You have answer for everything to make Jane look good and Kenny bad ... I readed nearly all your comments in this post and you are giant Kenny hater. I like both of them, why you cant ??? Yes Kenny had som anger issues but after his wife was killer, his son was bitten, his new girfriend is dead and only one who he cares about is AJ and Clem. So telling him that AJ is dead would piss off everywhone.
In my ending, I shoot Kenny and stayed with Jane but that doesn´t mean she is better.
It doesnt matter that Kenny has gone through a lot and has his reasons to be angry and irrational. He doesnt get any extra sympathy from me because of that. He just put others around him in danger too many times (even got Walter killed) and it was time to either leave him behind or kill him, which he forces me to do. To me, Kenny was just another Lilly & Ben situation.
Jane is more stable and safer choice than Kenny for many reason. The most important one must be that Kenny forced you to go north, even if you say no. He went on suicide mission to find a place he isnt sure exists and he forced Clementine to come with him, even if she said no to Kenny's plan.
By your profile picture I expected this thread..
And what if my Clementine wanted to go north ? Thats my only problem with Jane ending, why they come back ?! They come so far, many people died and the whole season Clementine is searching for Christa (she might be in Wellington) ... so why come back ? Even the episode is called: No going back !
Episode name was pointing to the Kenny Jane fight.
It doesnt matter what Clementine wants, Kenny still takes her to north when she is unconscious.
Clementine and Kenny are the last two standing from the original group and both thought the other was for going on two years. Being the last two left can form a bond like no other, let alone being reunited after two years apart.
In my playthrough at least, at the end of S1E4 Kenny says to Lee "You and Clem are the only family I have left." or something along those lines.
The narrative requires the two characters to be friends, which I was more than fine with, but some people just don't like it.
I'm glad their relationship was no where near as forced as Jane's. Why was there no option to say "Can we just carry on in silence please?"
And Jane takes her back to store ... no matter what.
Jane takes her back to south, because they would just freeze to death in north and there was no reason to stay there. Howe's also had supplies for them and the baby, so why not check it out?
double post my bad
Its only forced because they ran into each other because of the Z-A to help each other survive and guess what at the end of seas 2 they both can still be alive
Howes could very wel been run over robbed clean and undefendable by just 2 persons if the swarm returned
You make everything Jane does sound like the best idea ever , but the majority doesn't agree
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Kenny and Jane are as good as dead and you know it.
thats not even close to what i'm saying ...
at the end of season2 you can still have kenny or jane with you
its not so hard to understand is it? I mean you're response is like saying happy birthday and they answer with "thanks ,i work out" makes no sense
oh i'm talking shit now because you can't take a responce ?
I said nothing wrong , you go straight into attack mode again
why can't people talk with you? thats all i want to know , because when people respond you'll go into attackmode
Its still not what i'm saying
said atthe end of seas 2 you can have kenny or jane , i don't know why you even say that ? trolling maybe i don't know...
and again you insult people on the forum