My Reasoning For My Disgust at Nick and Sarah's Treatment

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  • That would have been a repeat of Kenny's trauma TBH.

    I actually liked Carlos' abrupt, brutal death, just as I liked Pete's. It's just too bad that the writers really had no idea what to do with Sarah other than "lol she's never gonna get over it in the space of 24 hours."

    remorse667 posted: »

    I mean, what were you expecting from Sarah? To climb out of insanity and become badass like Clementine? What would've been better is having Sarah died before Carlos. That way we can see Carlos on the brink of insanity.

  • I knew that Nick was about to die,but was expecting Sarah to be in episode 5.

  • I wasn't bothered so much by Sarah's inevitable death than by the execution and the revelation that Telltale themselves had no empathy for the character.

    There was a shit-storm when people here found out that Telltale was eager to include the option to slap a grieving disabled girl and to let her get killed off brutally. Makes me wonder why they hate her so irrationally, yet also acted surprised when the majority of players killed off Kenny.

    It leaves me with the sense that Season 2's writers were a bunch of dicks who mistake kindness for weakness, and to be quite frank I have no patience for that attitude. If it were up to me, Sarah would still go through a lot of horrific traumas because that's what disasters do to people, but she wouldn't have been written off as dead weight.

  • That's what people expected, to be honest.

    Then again, they expected someone to go down there and help Sarah out of the rubble. Someone who actually wanted to help her, instead of Jane, who did absolutely nothing but "get up sarah" -weakily pulls boards-.

    Like Bonnie, Mike, Clementine and Luke. Four people could have saved her, but no.

    remorse667 posted: »

    I mean, what were you expecting from Sarah? To climb out of insanity and become badass like Clementine? What would've been better is having Sarah died before Carlos. That way we can see Carlos on the brink of insanity.

  • edited October 2014

    I still remember someone at TellTale said a writer from season 2 was a fan who sent him drafts in his email. Like really? Wow. Stop hiring fans and get real writers like season one. Thanks.

  • yes it does.

    ABigBadWolf posted: »

    I meant it was still great to me. Opinions, I guess.

  • I can think of several fans who'd do a better job writing this season, honestly. It's not an issue of being a fan. It's an issue of being a fan for all the wrong reasons.

    I still remember someone at TellTale said a writer from season 2 was a fan who sent him drafts in his email. Like really? Wow. Stop hiring fans and get real writers like season one. Thanks.

  • Dang!

    "In Season 1, we're mean to hate Crawford"

    "In Season 2, we're meant to become Crawford"

    That's chilling to the bone.

    skoothz posted: »

    I wrote an analysis on this back when episode 4 came out. Needless to say I agree with you a lot.

  • To you, maybe.

    Ellias posted: »

    yes it does.

  • Alt text

    What the fuck is up with that? I can't even... just.... WOW.

    dojo32161 posted: »

    Let me show you something odd about Sarah's death that @nadir-of-humanity pointed out a while ago. Ok so this has probably been pointe

  • edited October 2014

    Sarah's death was meant to be disgusting and sick. That's why she was begging and pleading for salvation as the walkers tore the flesh from her skin. It did exactly what it set out to do, make gamers feel completely alienated over a situation they had no control over.

  • Nick's death was totally lazy to me and was just flat out dumb. I wouldn't really have a problem with Sarah's death, if she didn't die in the same damn episode you "save her."

  • edited October 2014

    Even worse, they do all this mean spirited shit and kill Sarah, but it's in a way that completely fails to make the point they were driving at. All episode Jane is bashing us over the head with "Don't let them drag you down." "You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved." "Sarah is broken." but her second death has nothing to do with any of those things. It was simply bad luck. If Jane had been standing where Sarah was and vice versa, Ms. Lone Survivor would probably be dead and the grieving teenager would still be alive.

    It would have been one thing if Sarah had another panic attack and froze up again after you save her. Like if she fell off the deck and the upcoming wave of zombies caused her to be paralyzed in fear and she got eaten, like a deer caught in someone's headlights. I still wouldn't have liked that personally, but at least it would fit in with their narrative that Jane has constantly been hounding Clem with all episode. Instead, Sarah dies because she rolled a 1 on a saving throw. Even the first death kinda subverts what Jane's saying in Sarah be suicidal as just as you leave, she looks up and says Clementine, like it just dawned on her what's happening.

    In the end, the idea that Sarah is 100% incapable of survival is based on just two things. That's she dysfunctional in the immediate aftermath of losing a loved one, something that has only happened to EVERYONE in this series. And secondly, she's can't take care of herself, and after all the other characters have tried absolutely nothing to make her more self-sufficient. Except maybe Clementine teaching her to use a gun that no one let's her handle. It be like Chuck telling Lee to teach Clementine to take care of herself, then Lee doesn't actually bother and Clementine dies and we're just to assume it was Clem's fault for not knowing the things we never taught her.

    And after not bothering to finish making the case Sarah couldn't survive, the last episode does a total 180 and expects us to take care of a baby while constantly placating an emotionally disturbed man prone to irrational behavior and increasingly psychotic tendencies. So because of our pressing need to survive, we can't bother teaching a teenager any survival skills or give her any time to grieve. She's just dead weight. However, we can totally spend YEARS raising a newborn and are constantly encouraged to try to talk down a bearded lunatic after his outbursts keep putting everyone in danger.

    The whole AJ thing really pisses me off because it's manipulative drama at it's shallowest. Rebecca's baby was a minor subplot through most of S2, but come episode five, AJ is the most important thing in the world. It's like they got to the end and realized they haven't given the players anything at all to actually care about, so they'll focus on a baby. It's like killing a dog (which they also did), it'll get you to pay attention, but only because their appealing to your most basic instincts at this point. Sorta like the story telling equivalent of a sugar high.

    Ironically it would have been interesting to see Sarah interact with AJ. Her kind disposition could easily make her the nurturing type, and it might have been uplifting to see that caring for AJ might also be helping her through her grief.

    Bokor posted: »

    I wasn't bothered so much by Sarah's inevitable death than by the execution and the revelation that Telltale themselves had no empathy for t

  • Your totally right, I hope they don't make another episode like that.

    Nick's death was totally lazy to me and was just flat out dumb. I wouldn't really have a problem with Sarah's death, if she didn't die in the same damn episode you "save her."

  • Honestly if Sarah's second death hadnt been out of her control I wouldnt have minded. For example walkers come and she freezes again, it would have taken no extra effort rather than the random one we got

  • Except that a lot of fans took glee in that, and Telltale themselves endorsed that reaction by egging on Greg Miller when he gloated about letting her die horribly for 'not being normal'.

    You know what's vile and sick? Expecting us to empathize with monsters like Carver and abusive men like Kenny while simultaneously expecting us to not care about genuinely kind young women.

    Sarah's death was meant to be disgusting and sick. That's why she was begging and pleading for salvation as the walkers tore the flesh from

  • Carlos was one of my favorite characters this Season. Nick, Carlos, Sarah etc...I would have never brought Kenny back, and had Carlos play the original story they wrote for him, where he plays the crazy aggressive father. Then at the end you have to make a choice, to let Carlos kill someone you just met or to kill him in front of his daughter.

    We didn't get that, we got predictability.. In my opinion this season should of been about the friendship between Sarah/ Clementine not survival of the fittest. They need to write her where she is more multidimensional. Currently Clementine in my opinion feels pretty one dimensional, i would of loved to see Clementine lose her composure and cries with Sarah over their parents or they have a moment where Clementine gets so frustrated with Sarah, she says some pretty mean things to her, then apologies later.

    These are things that people deal with in real life, people get mad, people have to deal with it.

    torkahn808 posted: »

    Too bad they screwed that up. It would have been perfect had they continued Carlos's character from Ep. 2, when Luke said, "Don't worry Sara

  • It's tied to the writers' love for Kenny. It's already been talked about before that there is no reason other than authorial fiat for Kenny (by virtue of being a Daddy) to be The Only One to help Rebecca give birth (by...putting a blanket over her and watching her? Yeah, nobody else could have done that). Perhaps it'd have been more interesting for Sarah to have been involved with delivering the child and attaching herself to it.

    On another note, I can't help but imagine she would have got along with Arvo quite well.

    Even worse, they do all this mean spirited shit and kill Sarah, but it's in a way that completely fails to make the point they were driving

  • I disagree, i think Pete and Carlos both died way too early. We barely got to know these guys. I would of rather been around these guys than Kenny/Jane.

    Bokor posted: »

    That would have been a repeat of Kenny's trauma TBH. I actually liked Carlos' abrupt, brutal death, just as I liked Pete's. It's just to

  • RhaeygarRhaeygar Banned
    edited October 2014

    I think making Nick so irrelevant after ep 2 is TellTale's way of telling you, "did you really keep Ben 2.0 around THIS long? Really?"

  • I'd probably be willing to accept that, even ignoring the writer's intent, if anyone fucking cared that Sarah dies. There's a bit of dialogue after the trailer park and Rebecca cries, and if she dies under the deck you get one line to Jane and no one mentions her, aside from Luke mentioning the entire cabin crew in the last episode.

    If the actual intent was to contrast Sarah's innocent nature with such a horrible death (which it sounds like it wasn't their intent), a little more dialogue to talk about her would have been nice. There's a perfectly natural opportunity when Jane is leaving. With all the crap about her sister and a lot of the drama about leaving Sarah coming from Jane's own hang-ups. Hell, Jane could even say that's part of reason she's leaving, Watching Sarah die was a painful reminder of why she doesn't want to get close to people anymore since she knows you'll just lose them.

    Sarah's death was meant to be disgusting and sick. That's why she was begging and pleading for salvation as the walkers tore the flesh from

  • They didn't want to save her.

    That's what people expected, to be honest. Then again, they expected someone to go down there and help Sarah out of the rubble. Someone w

  • edited October 2014

    ALVIN: Good determinant death scene.

    NICK: Bad determinant death scene.

    SARAH: This is a tricky one. While Telltale's treatment of the character is still up for debate, my version of Clem did everything in her power to save Sarah. If Telltale got a lot wrong with Sarah's final moment, you definitely can't deny the scene itself was pretty fucking awful - the worst in the series so far, IMO. The way she screams "daddy" while being eaten alive is the stuff of nightmares.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't excuse the "well, that happened" attitude of the other characters immediately thereafter.

  • Agreed. The Sarah death was horrible. And the way some people are like "LOL FINALLY SARAH DIED! YES!" is awful. That's what separates monsters from people. If we don't help those in need keep persevering, what's the point of surviving when you lose what makes you human?

    ALVIN: Good determinant death scene. NICK: Bad determinant death scene. SARAH: This is a tricky one. While Telltale's treatment of the

  • dojo32161dojo32161 Moderator
    edited October 2014

    I'm just imagining the hand of some dog owner praising Alvin's death while scolding Nick's.

    "Good boy! Getting shot while saving Clementine! And an emotional speech to boot! Good boy, you deserve a treat!"

    "Bad boy! How dare you go off screen and get bitten! Grrr.... Mommy/Pappy's mad at you!"

    ALVIN: Good determinant death scene. NICK: Bad determinant death scene. SARAH: This is a tricky one. While Telltale's treatment of the

  • So what would you have preferred?

    dojo32161 posted: »

    I'm just imagining the hand of some dog owner praising Alvin's death while scolding Nick's. "Good boy! Getting shot while saving Clementi

  • Yeah, I know what you mean. I didn't consider Sarah "worthless" at all either. I liked her as much as I liked Clementine. I think we were supposed to hate her and leave her to die, but that didn't work.

  • If they wanted to keep the same death with him on the fence, it would have been a bit better if he was barely alive so we could at least talk to him. Or perhaps he could have died in the trailer due to his gunshot wound so he can't climb out.

    So what would you have preferred?

  • edited October 2014

    Yup. Just a few words between Clem and the dying Nick could have made a world of difference.

    dojo32161 posted: »

    If they wanted to keep the same death with him on the fence, it would have been a bit better if he was barely alive so we could at least talk to him. Or perhaps he could have died in the trailer due to his gunshot wound so he can't climb out.

  • Yeah, it would have elevated it from the worst death to a good or great or even fantastic death. But it ended like this.

    Yup. Just a few words between Clem and the dying Nick could have made a world of difference.

  • I think we were supposed to hate her and leave her to die, but that didn't work.

    To be honest, I didn't like Sarah at all when we first met her, but that had more to do with her (unintentionally) creepy introduction scene in the cabin and the rumours about Sarah being a potential replacement for Clementine.

    HugoCorv posted: »

    Yeah, I know what you mean. I didn't consider Sarah "worthless" at all either. I liked her as much as I liked Clementine. I think we were supposed to hate her and leave her to die, but that didn't work.

  • edited October 2014

    I would have had Sarah's death have some kind of meaning to the other characters.

    Scenario 1:

    In my Sarah's death scenario, Carlos takes the place of Kenny as Kenny seemingly won't wake up from his head bashing from Carver forcing the group to leave him behind. Sarah gets separated from Carlos in the herd and starts screaming for him, and Clementine goes after her. She will be visibly panicking and is bitten by a walker. Clementine can kill the walker. Luke and Nick will then appear and help get Sarah out of the herd. Carlos will be horrified at Sarah's bite and after doing all he can, he realizes he can't save her and he doesn't know what to do now as his only reason for existing was for his daughter. He will ask you, "What should I do Clementine? I don't know what to do." You can tell Carlos you will kill Sarah because he shouldn't have to do it, but he will refuse saying that she was his daughter and Clementine should remember her as her friend (or the innocent girl in the cabin). Carlos will eventually spiral down to madness in his grief as he cannot handle the loss of his daughter, culminating in a final showdown with Carlos and Jane (or Nick or somebody). You can choose who to shoot. Luke and whoever survived will ask you where you want to go. You will go there. A figure is seen in the distance and Clementine smiles.

    Scenario 2:

    Everyone makes it out of the herd alive. Mike and Bonnie take the ice bucket challenge and fail and Kenny never makes it out of Howe's. Nick dies protecting Luke or Sarah in the shootout. Baby AJ will not be alive and doesn't make it. Carlos will be furious at Jane for pushing Rebecca further than she could go when he thought Rebecca needed to rest. Jane will point out that they needed supplies for the group as a whole. Carlos and Jane don't get along because of Carlos's grudge against Jane about the baby. Carlos's anger at Jane will build up especially when she begins saying that Sarah isn't meant for this world. Carlos will lash out at her in anger against Jane for telling Sarah that she will die, leading to the fight in Ep. 5. Luke, still weak from his injuries can't intervene. Clementine gets knocked to the ground, trying to help whoever she chooses. Her gun falls to the ground in front of Sarah who is hugging her knees and screaming for everyone to stop. Sarah looks at the gun. Depending if you taught her to shoot or not, she will aim and hit/miss depending if you told her who to shoot at. If you told her to shoot Jane and taught her to shoot, she will hit Jane. If you didn't teach her, she will shoot the opposite person. She will then look at Clem and say "I never wanted to hurt anyone." Shooting Jane kills her instantly. Shooting Carlos will hit him in the shoulder and Clementine then has the option to kill either one of them. Those who survive will go back to the Cabin and attempt to rebuild their lives. A figure in the distance is seen and Clementine smiles.

    So what would you have preferred?

  • At least Pete had a hint of a stable character.

    CrazyGeorge posted: »

    I disagree, i think Pete and Carlos both died way too early. We barely got to know these guys. I would of rather been around these guys than Kenny/Jane.

  • I wrote a ton on this here: http://deadpansal.tumblr.com/post/94712021052/clementine-will-remember-that-writing-agendas-and

    But if you don't want to wade through that wall of text, here's the bottom line: it's consistent with Kirkman's world. They didn't die because they were weak or represented negative stereotypes of disorders or anything like that, they died because everybody dies. Nobody "deserves" better treatment in this universe, everybody gets a shit rap. People die for no reason, there's no time for a funeral and all you can do at the end of the day is wonder "Could Lee/Clem/Rick have done more?" And the answer is always yes.

  • Well, no shit.

    CrazyGeorge posted: »

    They didn't want to save her.

  • They wrote her out when they decided to write Kenny in.

    Well, no shit.

  • pretty sure they wrote a lot of people out when they decided to write Kenny in.

    CrazyGeorge posted: »

    They wrote her out when they decided to write Kenny in.

  • Carlos & Sarah for sure.

    pretty sure they wrote a lot of people out when they decided to write Kenny in.

  • tl;dr of the post
    Alt text

  • edited October 2014

    People die for no reason, there's no time for a funeral and all you can do at the end of the day is wonder "Could Lee/Clem/Rick have done more?" And the answer is always yes.

    That's not entirely true, don't you think? Especially since there's no way you can stop Lilly from shooting Carley/Doug, among a few other examples.

    (Oh, and "everybody dies" my butt. Try telling that to Kenny. He eats nihilism for breakfast.)

    I wrote a ton on this here: http://deadpansal.tumblr.com/post/94712021052/clementine-will-remember-that-writing-agendas-and But if you do

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