I wouldn't say that. Formulaic and cheap as it may be, it sells like crazy. The issue 100 event was pretty huge. It wouldn't be in danger of dying even with no show or games.
I figured that she would die to be honest but I thought her death was going to be meaningful. I thought that before her death she would deve… morelop as a character not just be thrown away and that episode made me really dislike Jane. I find it interesting how Molly from season 1 did everything she could to help her sister who was diabetic and even though was a bit of a loner still manage to help people who would be perceived as weak and was disgusted by Crawford's attitude whereas Jane wanted to leave Sarah behind. In season 2 the game tries to push you into that mentality and it doesn't really give the player a choice to not accept it.
I actually thought Sarah was the one thing that could have made playing as Clementine, an actual young and vulnerable Clementine, work. To an adult player character (or the time skipped mostly adult in an eleven year old's body we got) Sarah is just another kid character that's supposed to be cared for, similar to Duck and Clem. And caring for them can make for interesting stories and scenes, like Duck's death and trying to teach Clem to defend herself. But children and adults interact differently with each other than with people their own age. But with a actual child as the protagonist, you had this unique opportunity to better explore such a dire world through young eyes by having Clem relate to Sarah as she slowly suffers similar situations.
The way Clem actually talks to Sarah is more like an adult talking to a child. Even the nice options, such as offering a hug in Harm's Way sounds like a confused adult trying to think of things kids like. And for me it would have been a lot more interesting if Clem and Sarah talked more like two children. Even if this is suppose to be a "harder" "colder" Clementine, she's still a small vulnerable young women. No amount of tricks and tips can help Clem completely overcome her disadvantage of being smaller than most adults or that some people would see her as an easy target because of their size, like Troy, who seems eager to beat Sarah.
And the dialogue between Clem and Sarah really should have reflected that increased sense of vulnerability and fear they would share. That they're at greater danger of being victimized simply because they're younger and smaller. Not this empty one note crap about Sarah needing to grow up from someone actually four years younger than her, but genuine empathy. There are so many times where Sarah is suffering through something Clem has already weathered once before and it would have so much more meaningful and emotional to hear Clem relating her own buried feelings with Sarah.
A running aspect of Clementine's character in season one was the question of how the horrible things she sees are affecting her and as both Katjaa and Lee point out, Clem's exact feelings and thoughts can be hard to read at times. Such as when Lilly shoots Carley or Doug, she's very quiet for the next few scenes or if Lee tells her about his past it's not entirely clear what she thinks about that news. With Clem as the player character there was this perfect chance to delve into her psyche through Sarah.
Sarah should have been the person Clem opens up to. Someone she knows who wouldn't judge her, or try to manipulate or dictate too her because Sarah is in pretty much the same place emotionally as Clem. As Sarah suffers Clem could relate her own past trauma in a way that helps both move forward. It'd help Sarah in knowing she's not alone in the way she feels and help Clem feel a little stronger that there's someone she can help in a really meaningful way that she probably wouldn't be able to if she was an adult.
I was really disappointed that you never get the chance for Clem to tell Sarah about what happened to her parents in detail, or that Sarah never even asks where Clem's mom and dad are. Seemed like a really opportune way for them to bond, especially after Carlos dies. Clem spent months wondering what happened to her mom & dad until a stranger over the radio tells her he knows where they are. Only for this man to kidnap her and the man who protected her die in saving her. All just to see her mom and dad as zombies on the street with the rest of dead.
Can you imagine how Sarah would react to such a sad story? Someone completely dependent on her dad hearing about a girl even younger than her trying to find her own parents, only to lose them and the adoptive one she had? She tells Luke the story and he feels bad for her, but it's just kind of hard for him or probably most of us to fully comprehend just what a devastating loss it really is, but with someone like Sarah they could have really helped the audience feel the full weight of what it would be like for Clem to have endure such pain.
There was so much they could have done with Clem and Sarah, and yet they did so very very little.
Man Sarah had a lot of potential to be a great character. I would have love to explore a character who's not as tough as Clem and is shelter… moreed but is also really kind and wants to learn how to survive. On a more personal note my father died very suddenly of a stroke while I was at home and during that time I was exactly like Sarah and I'm sure that if anyone had a loved one die in front of them they would panic and shut down as well. You really don't think rationally. I'm pretty sure that all of us behind our computer screens and tv screens (I'm talking to you Greg Miller) would like to pretend that we would be just like Clem but in reality we would be scared and we would probably be like Sarah or Ben if not worse, not only that but I find it really odd how people are cheering for the death of someone who has done nothing malicious to you and overall is a kind person.
But where do you go with Sarah that isn't killing her or making her Clementine 2.0? Everyone who wants her alive usually says something like "I'd want her to be affected by the death of her father, but have it strengthen her into being a survivor". Guess what? That's been done, and Clementine is way more interesting than Clementine. As attached as some people are to Sarah, I don't feel that she was going to end up somewhere that wouldn't be appropriate for her character (she isn't going to turn into Ellen Ripley) or end up on the exact same path as Clementine.
Cool as the idea of being Clem's confidant is, I don't see that as making her a character that makes it to the end.
I actually thought Sarah was the one thing that could have made playing as Clementine, an actual young and vulnerable Clementine, work. To a… moren adult player character (or the time skipped mostly adult in an eleven year old's body we got) Sarah is just another kid character that's supposed to be cared for, similar to Duck and Clem. And caring for them can make for interesting stories and scenes, like Duck's death and trying to teach Clem to defend herself. But children and adults interact differently with each other than with people their own age. But with a actual child as the protagonist, you had this unique opportunity to better explore such a dire world through young eyes by having Clem relate to Sarah as she slowly suffers similar situations.
The way Clem actually talks to Sarah is more like an adult talking to a child. Even the nice options, such as offering a hug in Harm's Way sounds like a confused adult trying to think of things kids… [view original content]
The ironic part is if you get Sarah out of the trailer park, she's the first one to spot the incoming zombies and actually alerts the others… more when she starts calling for Clementine. So the borderline catatonic girl makes a better look out than the actual look out, who at the time was busy upgrading his farm boy status to playboy. =P
I'm just gonna reply to the original post since this is a SUPER LONG reply and I don't want the text get all squished, but in response to what Master of Aeons said:
I never said you couldn't kill Sarah at some point. Lots of people have even suggested alternate death scenarios. I even said I wouldn't have actually minded her current deaths as much if it felt like it had significant impact on Clem or the other characters. A common suggestion is Sarah being bitten and Clem having to be the one to put Sarah out of her misery. She did run through an entire herd of zombies, her getting bitten would make more sense than not.
And I agree I wouldn't want Sarah to become a badass. I already don't like Clem's time skip into one and it would feel even more out of character if a few survival lessons turned Sarah into some kind of road warrior type. And it would defeat what I find most appealing about her character, which is her kind and caring nature. You could only make her so capable before it would seem like a contradiction. It’d be like turning Katjaa into an action hero, it’d fly in the face of the core of their character.
The potential of her character shouldn't be someone Clem has to mold into a survivor. There could be shades of that, but her importance should be, for Clem at least, that Sarah offers something different from survival. Where as Clem could help Sarah through the bad times, Sarah could help Clem enjoy the few good times they have. S1 Clem spent a lot of her free time drawing, and playing with Duck and doing things that made her happy. Sarah could help Clementine rediscover some of that simple joy, some actual happiness, even just briefly.
All season I'm wondering why Clem is even bothering to survive when she seems so miserable about everything. I get she's growing up and things suck, but it'd be nice if there were a few scenes where she's tempted to act like a kid again. Maybe they find like a swing set or something and Clem pretends like she doesn't want to use it and says she's too old, like some kids do when they want to act grown-up. And Sarah keeps prodding Clem into acting her age, maybe even gets Clem to crack a damn smile again.
It could even be set-up where you can choose if you want to play nice or be a more mischievous. Like how siblings interact. Think back to Clem putting a bug on Duck's pillow. Jane was talking about how she use to do things like give her little sister a bad haircut then make fun of her for it. Easily could have done literally that with Sarah and Clem. Sarah could have asked about Clem's short hair, which leads to a conversation about Clem cutting Sarah's shorter so it'll be safer and while doing the deed you have the option to mess with Sarah and give her a really stupid looking haircut, and then maybe rub it in a little.
Playing up Clem and Sarah's relationship as sororal one would actually have fit nicely with a lot of scenes in season two. Clem tells Jane she always wanted a sister. And Jane comparing Jamie to Sarah would carry more weight if Clem acted like a big sister to Sarah and might even better explain Jane's sudden interest in Clementine. She's seeing her own worst nightmare play out all over again with Clem and Sarah. Even little things like Clem telling Carver the picture he finds is of her dead sister could have been ways to hint at this relationship if it were better established.
Instead of repeating the parent/child family angle from S1, S2 could have been about a sibling dynamic, centered around characters so young that their perspective of the world has an entire added layer of danger on top of an already incredible perilous situation. Clem's possible desire to protect Sarah would be hindered by her own limited ability to protect herself. The scene where Clem shows Sarah how to use a gun is a good example of how this relationship could have been written.
Despite Clem being more wise of the world than Sarah, she still doesn't actually know much about guns or gun safety, evidenced by the fact she parrots Lee's line about the gun "just being a thing" but admits to Sarah she doesn't actually understand what that means when asked about it. So it wouldn't be teacher and student but more of a case of the blind leading the blind.
Sarah could look up to Clem for answers, but despite her relative wealth of experience Clem actually doesn't have all that many answers to give. And this creates this pressure for Clem to try and live up to this idolized version Sarah may hold of Clem, to act like this hardened survivor when really Clem is struggling with these problems, much like Sarah is. Eventually Clem could confess she doesn’t know what to do and Sarah could tell her she doesn’t always expect Clem to, and it’d reenforce this bond between them. Clem isn’t caring for Sarah, they’re actually caring for each other, but in their own separate ways.
As where to go with Sarah in the end, if you wanted to keep her alive I think you could pair her with AJ and Clem to create for a hopeful image. The writers gloss over a shit load of complications and implications with the group having a baby. Babies need more than just food and protection, they require constant care. AJ will eventually get too big just to carry around everywhere and toddlers also go through a phase where they want to chew and touch everything. At some point their just gonna have to find some where for him to stay.
So, ignoring Wellington's existence for a minute (not hard considering how poorly set-up it was), in addition to somewhere to keep AJ you'll also need someone who could devote themselves to AJ's well being. A caretaker who could raise and educate AJ. Someone to teach him to read and speak if just so he can communicate with other survivors and know what to scavenge someday. Someone kind and nurturing who'll care for him until he can care for himself. And I think that person could have been Sarah.
If Clementine can become a survivor, I think Sarah could be a mother actually. Or least close enough for post-apocalypse standards. It’s not hard to imagine her holding AJ and comforting him and playing with him. There’s a scene in No Going Back where Clem can stick out her tongue and make a face to comfort AJ and it just made me think of Sarah doing that with the camera and how she might actually enjoy caring for a baby.
Instead of that silly alone ending where Clementine is going to wander through a herd of zombies with a baby in one hand and a hatchet in the other, it could have been Clem returning from a scavenging run to bring supplies to Sarah and AJ. Possibly holed up somewhere in that town they saw in Amid the Ruins.
Clem could offload what she found while Sarah feeds AJ. Clem’s drawing of Kenny’s family, her picture of Lee and Sarah’s Polaroid photos could be pinned to the wall and they could start talking about their plans for the future and you’d see this image of a loving family growing out of the ashes of the destruction. Something that defies Carver’s definition of a stronger generation. Where strength and kindness are not mutually exclusive. Something hopeful.
TL;DR VERSION - I didn't want Clem to tutor Sarah into some kind of hardcore survivalist. I just wanted to see Sarah make Clementine happy, if just for a little bit.
Man Sarah had a lot of potential to be a great character. I would have love to explore a character who's not as tough as Clem and is shelter… moreed but is also really kind and wants to learn how to survive. On a more personal note my father died very suddenly of a stroke while I was at home and during that time I was exactly like Sarah and I'm sure that if anyone had a loved one die in front of them they would panic and shut down as well. You really don't think rationally. I'm pretty sure that all of us behind our computer screens and tv screens (I'm talking to you Greg Miller) would like to pretend that we would be just like Clem but in reality we would be scared and we would probably be like Sarah or Ben if not worse, not only that but I find it really odd how people are cheering for the death of someone who has done nothing malicious to you and overall is a kind person.
Are people still coming into threads and complaining about fans voicing valid criticisms that Telltale has still refused to acknowledge or take to heart? Are you fucking kidding me?
I'm just gonna reply to the original post since this is a SUPER LONG reply and I don't want the text get all squished, but in response to wh… moreat Master of Aeons said:
I never said you couldn't kill Sarah at some point. Lots of people have even suggested alternate death scenarios. I even said I wouldn't have actually minded her current deaths as much if it felt like it had significant impact on Clem or the other characters. A common suggestion is Sarah being bitten and Clem having to be the one to put Sarah out of her misery. She did run through an entire herd of zombies, her getting bitten would make more sense than not.
And I agree I wouldn't want Sarah to become a badass. I already don't like Clem's time skip into one and it would feel even more out of character if a few survival lessons turned Sarah into some kind of road warrior type. And it would defeat what I find most appealing about her character, which is her kind and caring natu… [view original content]
Agreed! I don't care if a close bond between these two girls is "unrealistic" or "doesn't fit the theme", it would have been unique and fascinating to watch unfold.
I actually thought Sarah was the one thing that could have made playing as Clementine, an actual young and vulnerable Clementine, work. To a… moren adult player character (or the time skipped mostly adult in an eleven year old's body we got) Sarah is just another kid character that's supposed to be cared for, similar to Duck and Clem. And caring for them can make for interesting stories and scenes, like Duck's death and trying to teach Clem to defend herself. But children and adults interact differently with each other than with people their own age. But with a actual child as the protagonist, you had this unique opportunity to better explore such a dire world through young eyes by having Clem relate to Sarah as she slowly suffers similar situations.
The way Clem actually talks to Sarah is more like an adult talking to a child. Even the nice options, such as offering a hug in Harm's Way sounds like a confused adult trying to think of things kids… [view original content]
But where do you go with Sarah that isn't killing her or making her Clementine 2.0?
There are thousands of potential endings for fictional characters. If Telltale wrote themselves into a box where it's either "Die or replace Clementine", it's not Jaded X Gamer's fault for coming up with a theory that doesn't fit that mold, it's their own for being so contrived and predictable.
But where do you go with Sarah that isn't killing her or making her Clementine 2.0? Everyone who wants her alive usually says something like… more "I'd want her to be affected by the death of her father, but have it strengthen her into being a survivor". Guess what? That's been done, and Clementine is way more interesting than Clementine. As attached as some people are to Sarah, I don't feel that she was going to end up somewhere that wouldn't be appropriate for her character (she isn't going to turn into Ellen Ripley) or end up on the exact same path as Clementine.
Cool as the idea of being Clem's confidant is, I don't see that as making her a character that makes it to the end.
Who faulted him for doing a good job? I'm for hearing an appropriate alternative to what happened to Sarah. My only complaint is that when people suggest another ending for Sarah it's something really out there, like "She's somehow invincible" or "her tears are the cure to the outbreak".
But where do you go with Sarah that isn't killing her or making her Clementine 2.0?
There are thousands of potential endings for fic… moretional characters. If Telltale wrote themselves into a box where it's either "Die or replace Clementine", it's not Jaded X Gamer's fault for coming up with a theory that doesn't fit that mold, it's their own for being so contrived and predictable.
Who faulted him for doing a good job? I'm for hearing an appropriate alternative to what happened to Sarah. My only complaint is that when p… moreeople suggest another ending for Sarah it's something really out there, like "She's somehow invincible" or "her tears are the cure to the outbreak".
I'm sure most people saying that are probably being facetious, honestly. Kenny fans always joked about how his mustache miraculously saved him from what happened in Episode 5. I kind of feel like it's the same thing.
Who faulted him for doing a good job? I'm for hearing an appropriate alternative to what happened to Sarah. My only complaint is that when p… moreeople suggest another ending for Sarah it's something really out there, like "She's somehow invincible" or "her tears are the cure to the outbreak".
I'm sure most people saying that are probably being facetious, honestly. Kenny fans always joked about how his mustache miraculously saved him from what happened in Episode 5. I kind of feel like it's the same thing.
First post in a while :P No one ever said high school would be this busy...
Does anyone remember a few months before Season 2 was released, the press was shown a teaser screenshot of Clem and another child sitting in the rain or something? I really have to wonder if Telltale was initially planning to give Sarah a bigger role and closer friendship with Clem.
I'm just gonna reply to the original post since this is a SUPER LONG reply and I don't want the text get all squished, but in response to wh… moreat Master of Aeons said:
I never said you couldn't kill Sarah at some point. Lots of people have even suggested alternate death scenarios. I even said I wouldn't have actually minded her current deaths as much if it felt like it had significant impact on Clem or the other characters. A common suggestion is Sarah being bitten and Clem having to be the one to put Sarah out of her misery. She did run through an entire herd of zombies, her getting bitten would make more sense than not.
And I agree I wouldn't want Sarah to become a badass. I already don't like Clem's time skip into one and it would feel even more out of character if a few survival lessons turned Sarah into some kind of road warrior type. And it would defeat what I find most appealing about her character, which is her kind and caring natu… [view original content]
That would have been a very cool alternative ending. In my opinion Clem is written to be too mature for her age. I'm not saying that she has to revert back to being the young naïve girl who you had to protect but I would have loved to have moments where she acted like a kid. I thought it would've been sort of cool to see Sarah bring out the child in her and remind her and the audience that she's still a kid. I understand that she's the main protagonist but I feel like the writers forget that Clem is eleven and not some sort of survivor badass. We never get to see her act like a kid, where she doesn't know what to do and is scared.
I'm just gonna reply to the original post since this is a SUPER LONG reply and I don't want the text get all squished, but in response to wh… moreat Master of Aeons said:
I never said you couldn't kill Sarah at some point. Lots of people have even suggested alternate death scenarios. I even said I wouldn't have actually minded her current deaths as much if it felt like it had significant impact on Clem or the other characters. A common suggestion is Sarah being bitten and Clem having to be the one to put Sarah out of her misery. She did run through an entire herd of zombies, her getting bitten would make more sense than not.
And I agree I wouldn't want Sarah to become a badass. I already don't like Clem's time skip into one and it would feel even more out of character if a few survival lessons turned Sarah into some kind of road warrior type. And it would defeat what I find most appealing about her character, which is her kind and caring natu… [view original content]
I feel like they just made Luke mention the cabin group in the last episode so fans would be happy that he remembered after what happened in episode 4 and it worked.
Oh grow up. Sarah fans throw around phrases they don't know the meaning of, and expect Telltale to apologise because they're upset.
Sarah and Nick were their characters to kill off, in any manner they saw fit. They have no obligation to acknowledge your "criticism" as they've actually done NOTHING wrong, both you and I are upset with the management of their character's storylines, but they have no need to apologise to any of us just because we didn't like it.
Are people still coming into threads and complaining about fans voicing valid criticisms that Telltale has still refused to acknowledge or take to heart? Are you fucking kidding me?
The Daryl Dixon fans are far worse. They see everyone dying in a moderately high stakes world (the show is a pale imitation of the comic) and feel like Daryl is somehow special. No one in Walking Dead is special.
Oh grow up. Sarah fans throw around phrases they don't know the meaning of, and expect Telltale to apologise because they're upset.
Sarah… more and Nick were their characters to kill off, in any manner they saw fit. They have no obligation to acknowledge your "criticism" as they've actually done NOTHING wrong, both you and I are upset with the management of their character's storylines, but they have no need to apologise to any of us just because we didn't like it.
" Luke would think logically and realize that Nick shouldn't be moving. If anything, Luke would go himself. "
If that happened, Luke, Clem and Jane would have returned to the trailer to find zombie Nick gnawing on Sarah
Nick was shot, died of his wound. In one way, we could say Nick died bravely searching for help for Luke and Sarah but if left alone with Sarah to die, would just give us a scene that takes care of both character's deaths. They would have put down Nick and ensure Sarah wouldnt come back.
The Daryl Dixon fans are far worse. They see everyone dying in a moderately high stakes world (the show is a pale imitation of the comic) and feel like Daryl is somehow special. No one in Walking Dead is special.
Except Rick. And Carl. And Andrea.
Too bad we couldn't have that as an alternate outcome. Maybe if you had a long string of choices to influence Luke on whether to be the sort who works as a team or who does things himself, we could have something like this happen.
to the OP...
" Luke would think logically and realize that Nick shouldn't be moving. If anything, Luke would go himself. "
If that hap… morepened, Luke, Clem and Jane would have returned to the trailer to find zombie Nick gnawing on Sarah
Nick was shot, died of his wound. In one way, we could say Nick died bravely searching for help for Luke and Sarah but if left alone with Sarah to die, would just give us a scene that takes care of both character's deaths. They would have put down Nick and ensure Sarah wouldnt come back.
Actually Nick was only shot in the shoulder. He died only because he went outside and got bitten on the neck and ankle when he got stuck in the fence. Being shot in the shoulder wasn't a fatal wound. We've seen this before with Mark in Starved For Help when he clearly was in a lot of pain but in no danger of dying. Nick wouldn't have died from the shoulder wound.
to the OP...
" Luke would think logically and realize that Nick shouldn't be moving. If anything, Luke would go himself. "
If that hap… morepened, Luke, Clem and Jane would have returned to the trailer to find zombie Nick gnawing on Sarah
Nick was shot, died of his wound. In one way, we could say Nick died bravely searching for help for Luke and Sarah but if left alone with Sarah to die, would just give us a scene that takes care of both character's deaths. They would have put down Nick and ensure Sarah wouldnt come back.
I'm just gonna reply to the original post since this is a SUPER LONG reply and I don't want the text get all squished, but in response to wh… moreat Master of Aeons said:
I never said you couldn't kill Sarah at some point. Lots of people have even suggested alternate death scenarios. I even said I wouldn't have actually minded her current deaths as much if it felt like it had significant impact on Clem or the other characters. A common suggestion is Sarah being bitten and Clem having to be the one to put Sarah out of her misery. She did run through an entire herd of zombies, her getting bitten would make more sense than not.
And I agree I wouldn't want Sarah to become a badass. I already don't like Clem's time skip into one and it would feel even more out of character if a few survival lessons turned Sarah into some kind of road warrior type. And it would defeat what I find most appealing about her character, which is her kind and caring natu… [view original content]
Yes. I hate the show's killing habits because it never has to do with realism. The only people who die in the show are killed because the fans don't like them or the actor has to leave. It really kills the tone.
Oh grow up. Sarah fans throw around phrases they don't know the meaning of, and expect Telltale to apologise because they're upset.
Sarah… more and Nick were their characters to kill off, in any manner they saw fit. They have no obligation to acknowledge your "criticism" as they've actually done NOTHING wrong, both you and I are upset with the management of their character's storylines, but they have no need to apologise to any of us just because we didn't like it.
to the OP...
" Luke would think logically and realize that Nick shouldn't be moving. If anything, Luke would go himself. "
If that hap… morepened, Luke, Clem and Jane would have returned to the trailer to find zombie Nick gnawing on Sarah
Nick was shot, died of his wound. In one way, we could say Nick died bravely searching for help for Luke and Sarah but if left alone with Sarah to die, would just give us a scene that takes care of both character's deaths. They would have put down Nick and ensure Sarah wouldnt come back.
Really well said. I could have looked past a lot of other issues if those themes were more of a focal point throughout the season.
I didn't need Sarah to become a crack shot overnight for her character arc to work, I wanted acknowledgment that there's value to life beyond the ability to shoot a gun. And a sibling-like relationship would have been one of the few things to really make use of Clementine's age, because everyone else essentially treats her like an adult. With the group always expecting so much from Clem and blaming her when she fails, Sarah could have been that one voice of support that just wanted Clem to open up and be friends.
I'm just gonna reply to the original post since this is a SUPER LONG reply and I don't want the text get all squished, but in response to wh… moreat Master of Aeons said:
I never said you couldn't kill Sarah at some point. Lots of people have even suggested alternate death scenarios. I even said I wouldn't have actually minded her current deaths as much if it felt like it had significant impact on Clem or the other characters. A common suggestion is Sarah being bitten and Clem having to be the one to put Sarah out of her misery. She did run through an entire herd of zombies, her getting bitten would make more sense than not.
And I agree I wouldn't want Sarah to become a badass. I already don't like Clem's time skip into one and it would feel even more out of character if a few survival lessons turned Sarah into some kind of road warrior type. And it would defeat what I find most appealing about her character, which is her kind and caring natu… [view original content]
The Daryl Dixon fans are far worse. They see everyone dying in a moderately high stakes world (the show is a pale imitation of the comic) and feel like Daryl is somehow special. No one in Walking Dead is special.
Except Rick. And Carl. And Andrea.
I never asked for an apology. I said acknowledgement. And, uh... yeah. Considering the fact that they claim to take fans' input into account and that's something they allegedly PRIDE themselves on, yeah, I sort of do expect them to somehow acknowledge a major criticism.
Oh grow up. Sarah fans throw around phrases they don't know the meaning of, and expect Telltale to apologise because they're upset.
Sarah… more and Nick were their characters to kill off, in any manner they saw fit. They have no obligation to acknowledge your "criticism" as they've actually done NOTHING wrong, both you and I are upset with the management of their character's storylines, but they have no need to apologise to any of us just because we didn't like it.
I would have settled for moments where Clementine actually acted like Clementine even. S2 Clem is so far removed from S1 Clem that they're almost completely different characters. Thinking back on it, Season 2 would have actually made a lot more sense if we were playing as Becca from 400 Days. Smart ass pre-teen eager to prove she's a tough guy. A lot of Clem's dialogue feels better suited to Becca than Clem herself. You wouldn't have to rewrite that much to make it fit other than Kenny. Ditch the prologue and time skip, sub-out Christa for Shel in the following scene and you're off and running.
That would have been a very cool alternative ending. In my opinion Clem is written to be too mature for her age. I'm not saying that she has… more to revert back to being the young naïve girl who you had to protect but I would have loved to have moments where she acted like a kid. I thought it would've been sort of cool to see Sarah bring out the child in her and remind her and the audience that she's still a kid. I understand that she's the main protagonist but I feel like the writers forget that Clem is eleven and not some sort of survivor badass. We never get to see her act like a kid, where she doesn't know what to do and is scared.
Oh hey, it's the 'autistic' guy who's deemed himself the absolute authority on how to read disabled characters.
We have a right to complain when a sympathetic character is treated like trash by her own creators, and you have a right to take offense to that. That doesn't mean our opinions are invalid at all.
Hell, ever since Episode 5 came out and pretty much forced us to empathize with a pair of characters who were far less likable than Sarah (or Nick) were, I've become even more fond of the potential these forgotten two characters might have had.
You want a grim-dark story that glorifies being an asshole as the only way to live, then play a video game. I'd have liked something different.
Oh grow up. Sarah fans throw around phrases they don't know the meaning of, and expect Telltale to apologise because they're upset.
Sarah… more and Nick were their characters to kill off, in any manner they saw fit. They have no obligation to acknowledge your "criticism" as they've actually done NOTHING wrong, both you and I are upset with the management of their character's storylines, but they have no need to apologise to any of us just because we didn't like it.
That's all The Walking Dead is though. A Rand-ian look at surviving at all costs, being an asshole to survive in a "grim-dark" world. Do you shoot your best friend when he steals everything you have? Do you steal supplies from someone's car? Do you abandon a traumatized little girl out of simple convenience? Just because you're making the good decisions doesn't mean the original moral of the story is changed. You're not getting something different out of this franchise.
Oh hey, it's the 'autistic' guy who's deemed himself the absolute authority on how to read disabled characters.
We have a right to compla… morein when a sympathetic character is treated like trash by her own creators, and you have a right to take offense to that. That doesn't mean our opinions are invalid at all.
Hell, ever since Episode 5 came out and pretty much forced us to empathize with a pair of characters who were far less likable than Sarah (or Nick) were, I've become even more fond of the potential these forgotten two characters might have had.
You want a grim-dark story that glorifies being an asshole as the only way to live, then play a video game. I'd have liked something different.
I never deemed myself as anything, I just know an Autistic when I see one, as I am one. You on the other hand, have proved yourself to be an insensitive dickwad.
Congratulations. I'm sure Daddy is really proud of you now.
Oh hey, it's the 'autistic' guy who's deemed himself the absolute authority on how to read disabled characters.
We have a right to compla… morein when a sympathetic character is treated like trash by her own creators, and you have a right to take offense to that. That doesn't mean our opinions are invalid at all.
Hell, ever since Episode 5 came out and pretty much forced us to empathize with a pair of characters who were far less likable than Sarah (or Nick) were, I've become even more fond of the potential these forgotten two characters might have had.
You want a grim-dark story that glorifies being an asshole as the only way to live, then play a video game. I'd have liked something different.
Comments
I wouldn't say that. Formulaic and cheap as it may be, it sells like crazy. The issue 100 event was pretty huge. It wouldn't be in danger of dying even with no show or games.
They reused the same screams for both of her deaths.
Long live Sarah, fuck Jane.
I actually thought Sarah was the one thing that could have made playing as Clementine, an actual young and vulnerable Clementine, work. To an adult player character (or the time skipped mostly adult in an eleven year old's body we got) Sarah is just another kid character that's supposed to be cared for, similar to Duck and Clem. And caring for them can make for interesting stories and scenes, like Duck's death and trying to teach Clem to defend herself. But children and adults interact differently with each other than with people their own age. But with a actual child as the protagonist, you had this unique opportunity to better explore such a dire world through young eyes by having Clem relate to Sarah as she slowly suffers similar situations.
The way Clem actually talks to Sarah is more like an adult talking to a child. Even the nice options, such as offering a hug in Harm's Way sounds like a confused adult trying to think of things kids like. And for me it would have been a lot more interesting if Clem and Sarah talked more like two children. Even if this is suppose to be a "harder" "colder" Clementine, she's still a small vulnerable young women. No amount of tricks and tips can help Clem completely overcome her disadvantage of being smaller than most adults or that some people would see her as an easy target because of their size, like Troy, who seems eager to beat Sarah.
And the dialogue between Clem and Sarah really should have reflected that increased sense of vulnerability and fear they would share. That they're at greater danger of being victimized simply because they're younger and smaller. Not this empty one note crap about Sarah needing to grow up from someone actually four years younger than her, but genuine empathy. There are so many times where Sarah is suffering through something Clem has already weathered once before and it would have so much more meaningful and emotional to hear Clem relating her own buried feelings with Sarah.
A running aspect of Clementine's character in season one was the question of how the horrible things she sees are affecting her and as both Katjaa and Lee point out, Clem's exact feelings and thoughts can be hard to read at times. Such as when Lilly shoots Carley or Doug, she's very quiet for the next few scenes or if Lee tells her about his past it's not entirely clear what she thinks about that news. With Clem as the player character there was this perfect chance to delve into her psyche through Sarah.
Sarah should have been the person Clem opens up to. Someone she knows who wouldn't judge her, or try to manipulate or dictate too her because Sarah is in pretty much the same place emotionally as Clem. As Sarah suffers Clem could relate her own past trauma in a way that helps both move forward. It'd help Sarah in knowing she's not alone in the way she feels and help Clem feel a little stronger that there's someone she can help in a really meaningful way that she probably wouldn't be able to if she was an adult.
I was really disappointed that you never get the chance for Clem to tell Sarah about what happened to her parents in detail, or that Sarah never even asks where Clem's mom and dad are. Seemed like a really opportune way for them to bond, especially after Carlos dies. Clem spent months wondering what happened to her mom & dad until a stranger over the radio tells her he knows where they are. Only for this man to kidnap her and the man who protected her die in saving her. All just to see her mom and dad as zombies on the street with the rest of dead.
Can you imagine how Sarah would react to such a sad story? Someone completely dependent on her dad hearing about a girl even younger than her trying to find her own parents, only to lose them and the adoptive one she had? She tells Luke the story and he feels bad for her, but it's just kind of hard for him or probably most of us to fully comprehend just what a devastating loss it really is, but with someone like Sarah they could have really helped the audience feel the full weight of what it would be like for Clem to have endure such pain.
There was so much they could have done with Clem and Sarah, and yet they did so very very little.
Not for much longer, it won't be.
But where do you go with Sarah that isn't killing her or making her Clementine 2.0? Everyone who wants her alive usually says something like "I'd want her to be affected by the death of her father, but have it strengthen her into being a survivor". Guess what? That's been done, and Clementine is way more interesting than Clementine. As attached as some people are to Sarah, I don't feel that she was going to end up somewhere that wouldn't be appropriate for her character (she isn't going to turn into Ellen Ripley) or end up on the exact same path as Clementine.
Cool as the idea of being Clem's confidant is, I don't see that as making her a character that makes it to the end.
Downgrading, my friend. Downgrading.
I'm just gonna reply to the original post since this is a SUPER LONG reply and I don't want the text get all squished, but in response to what Master of Aeons said:
I never said you couldn't kill Sarah at some point. Lots of people have even suggested alternate death scenarios. I even said I wouldn't have actually minded her current deaths as much if it felt like it had significant impact on Clem or the other characters. A common suggestion is Sarah being bitten and Clem having to be the one to put Sarah out of her misery. She did run through an entire herd of zombies, her getting bitten would make more sense than not.
And I agree I wouldn't want Sarah to become a badass. I already don't like Clem's time skip into one and it would feel even more out of character if a few survival lessons turned Sarah into some kind of road warrior type. And it would defeat what I find most appealing about her character, which is her kind and caring nature. You could only make her so capable before it would seem like a contradiction. It’d be like turning Katjaa into an action hero, it’d fly in the face of the core of their character.
The potential of her character shouldn't be someone Clem has to mold into a survivor. There could be shades of that, but her importance should be, for Clem at least, that Sarah offers something different from survival. Where as Clem could help Sarah through the bad times, Sarah could help Clem enjoy the few good times they have. S1 Clem spent a lot of her free time drawing, and playing with Duck and doing things that made her happy. Sarah could help Clementine rediscover some of that simple joy, some actual happiness, even just briefly.
All season I'm wondering why Clem is even bothering to survive when she seems so miserable about everything. I get she's growing up and things suck, but it'd be nice if there were a few scenes where she's tempted to act like a kid again. Maybe they find like a swing set or something and Clem pretends like she doesn't want to use it and says she's too old, like some kids do when they want to act grown-up. And Sarah keeps prodding Clem into acting her age, maybe even gets Clem to crack a damn smile again.
It could even be set-up where you can choose if you want to play nice or be a more mischievous. Like how siblings interact. Think back to Clem putting a bug on Duck's pillow. Jane was talking about how she use to do things like give her little sister a bad haircut then make fun of her for it. Easily could have done literally that with Sarah and Clem. Sarah could have asked about Clem's short hair, which leads to a conversation about Clem cutting Sarah's shorter so it'll be safer and while doing the deed you have the option to mess with Sarah and give her a really stupid looking haircut, and then maybe rub it in a little.
Playing up Clem and Sarah's relationship as sororal one would actually have fit nicely with a lot of scenes in season two. Clem tells Jane she always wanted a sister. And Jane comparing Jamie to Sarah would carry more weight if Clem acted like a big sister to Sarah and might even better explain Jane's sudden interest in Clementine. She's seeing her own worst nightmare play out all over again with Clem and Sarah. Even little things like Clem telling Carver the picture he finds is of her dead sister could have been ways to hint at this relationship if it were better established.
Instead of repeating the parent/child family angle from S1, S2 could have been about a sibling dynamic, centered around characters so young that their perspective of the world has an entire added layer of danger on top of an already incredible perilous situation. Clem's possible desire to protect Sarah would be hindered by her own limited ability to protect herself. The scene where Clem shows Sarah how to use a gun is a good example of how this relationship could have been written.
Despite Clem being more wise of the world than Sarah, she still doesn't actually know much about guns or gun safety, evidenced by the fact she parrots Lee's line about the gun "just being a thing" but admits to Sarah she doesn't actually understand what that means when asked about it. So it wouldn't be teacher and student but more of a case of the blind leading the blind.
Sarah could look up to Clem for answers, but despite her relative wealth of experience Clem actually doesn't have all that many answers to give. And this creates this pressure for Clem to try and live up to this idolized version Sarah may hold of Clem, to act like this hardened survivor when really Clem is struggling with these problems, much like Sarah is. Eventually Clem could confess she doesn’t know what to do and Sarah could tell her she doesn’t always expect Clem to, and it’d reenforce this bond between them. Clem isn’t caring for Sarah, they’re actually caring for each other, but in their own separate ways.
As where to go with Sarah in the end, if you wanted to keep her alive I think you could pair her with AJ and Clem to create for a hopeful image. The writers gloss over a shit load of complications and implications with the group having a baby. Babies need more than just food and protection, they require constant care. AJ will eventually get too big just to carry around everywhere and toddlers also go through a phase where they want to chew and touch everything. At some point their just gonna have to find some where for him to stay.
So, ignoring Wellington's existence for a minute (not hard considering how poorly set-up it was), in addition to somewhere to keep AJ you'll also need someone who could devote themselves to AJ's well being. A caretaker who could raise and educate AJ. Someone to teach him to read and speak if just so he can communicate with other survivors and know what to scavenge someday. Someone kind and nurturing who'll care for him until he can care for himself. And I think that person could have been Sarah.
If Clementine can become a survivor, I think Sarah could be a mother actually. Or least close enough for post-apocalypse standards. It’s not hard to imagine her holding AJ and comforting him and playing with him. There’s a scene in No Going Back where Clem can stick out her tongue and make a face to comfort AJ and it just made me think of Sarah doing that with the camera and how she might actually enjoy caring for a baby.
Instead of that silly alone ending where Clementine is going to wander through a herd of zombies with a baby in one hand and a hatchet in the other, it could have been Clem returning from a scavenging run to bring supplies to Sarah and AJ. Possibly holed up somewhere in that town they saw in Amid the Ruins.
Clem could offload what she found while Sarah feeds AJ. Clem’s drawing of Kenny’s family, her picture of Lee and Sarah’s Polaroid photos could be pinned to the wall and they could start talking about their plans for the future and you’d see this image of a loving family growing out of the ashes of the destruction. Something that defies Carver’s definition of a stronger generation. Where strength and kindness are not mutually exclusive. Something hopeful.
TL;DR VERSION - I didn't want Clem to tutor Sarah into some kind of hardcore survivalist. I just wanted to see Sarah make Clementine happy, if just for a little bit.
Are people still bitching about Sarah?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Are people still coming into threads and complaining about fans voicing valid criticisms that Telltale has still refused to acknowledge or take to heart? Are you fucking kidding me?
There's nothing in that post that I don't like.
Agreed! I don't care if a close bond between these two girls is "unrealistic" or "doesn't fit the theme", it would have been unique and fascinating to watch unfold.
There are thousands of potential endings for fictional characters. If Telltale wrote themselves into a box where it's either "Die or replace Clementine", it's not Jaded X Gamer's fault for coming up with a theory that doesn't fit that mold, it's their own for being so contrived and predictable.
Who faulted him for doing a good job? I'm for hearing an appropriate alternative to what happened to Sarah. My only complaint is that when people suggest another ending for Sarah it's something really out there, like "She's somehow invincible" or "her tears are the cure to the outbreak".
Well that's incredibly stupid.
I'm sure most people saying that are probably being facetious, honestly. Kenny fans always joked about how his mustache miraculously saved him from what happened in Episode 5. I kind of feel like it's the same thing.
Oh dude, I remember those!
First post in a while :P No one ever said high school would be this busy...
Does anyone remember a few months before Season 2 was released, the press was shown a teaser screenshot of Clem and another child sitting in the rain or something? I really have to wonder if Telltale was initially planning to give Sarah a bigger role and closer friendship with Clem.
Rekt.
You should have written Season 2.
That would have been a very cool alternative ending. In my opinion Clem is written to be too mature for her age. I'm not saying that she has to revert back to being the young naïve girl who you had to protect but I would have loved to have moments where she acted like a kid. I thought it would've been sort of cool to see Sarah bring out the child in her and remind her and the audience that she's still a kid. I understand that she's the main protagonist but I feel like the writers forget that Clem is eleven and not some sort of survivor badass. We never get to see her act like a kid, where she doesn't know what to do and is scared.
Episode 5 was the most lazily written episode by leaps and bounds.
Oh grow up. Sarah fans throw around phrases they don't know the meaning of, and expect Telltale to apologise because they're upset.
Sarah and Nick were their characters to kill off, in any manner they saw fit. They have no obligation to acknowledge your "criticism" as they've actually done NOTHING wrong, both you and I are upset with the management of their character's storylines, but they have no need to apologise to any of us just because we didn't like it.
The Daryl Dixon fans are far worse. They see everyone dying in a moderately high stakes world (the show is a pale imitation of the comic) and feel like Daryl is somehow special. No one in Walking Dead is special.
Except Rick. And Carl. And Andrea.
to the OP...
" Luke would think logically and realize that Nick shouldn't be moving. If anything, Luke would go himself. "
If that happened, Luke, Clem and Jane would have returned to the trailer to find zombie Nick gnawing on Sarah
Nick was shot, died of his wound. In one way, we could say Nick died bravely searching for help for Luke and Sarah but if left alone with Sarah to die, would just give us a scene that takes care of both character's deaths. They would have put down Nick and ensure Sarah wouldnt come back.
Isn't Sophia still alive in the comics as well?
Too bad we couldn't have that as an alternate outcome. Maybe if you had a long string of choices to influence Luke on whether to be the sort who works as a team or who does things himself, we could have something like this happen.
Actually Nick was only shot in the shoulder. He died only because he went outside and got bitten on the neck and ankle when he got stuck in the fence. Being shot in the shoulder wasn't a fatal wound. We've seen this before with Mark in Starved For Help when he clearly was in a lot of pain but in no danger of dying. Nick wouldn't have died from the shoulder wound.
Welp...you've written something that's a lot more mature and interesting than the relentlessly bleak, mean-spirited season we actually got.
Yes. I hate the show's killing habits because it never has to do with realism. The only people who die in the show are killed because the fans don't like them or the actor has to leave. It really kills the tone.
They don't have to acknowledge fans, and upset fans don't have to buy their games anymore. Win win really.
Nick was shot in the shoulder.
And this walker caused his death:
Really well said. I could have looked past a lot of other issues if those themes were more of a focal point throughout the season.
I didn't need Sarah to become a crack shot overnight for her character arc to work, I wanted acknowledgment that there's value to life beyond the ability to shoot a gun. And a sibling-like relationship would have been one of the few things to really make use of Clementine's age, because everyone else essentially treats her like an adult. With the group always expecting so much from Clem and blaming her when she fails, Sarah could have been that one voice of support that just wanted Clem to open up and be friends.
Exactly.
Daryl Dixon fans are similar to Luke fans, they look past every single flaw.
Exactly, and Telltale will still be making an arse load of cash. Even the upset ones will come back.
I never asked for an apology. I said acknowledgement. And, uh... yeah. Considering the fact that they claim to take fans' input into account and that's something they allegedly PRIDE themselves on, yeah, I sort of do expect them to somehow acknowledge a major criticism.
I would have settled for moments where Clementine actually acted like Clementine even. S2 Clem is so far removed from S1 Clem that they're almost completely different characters. Thinking back on it, Season 2 would have actually made a lot more sense if we were playing as Becca from 400 Days. Smart ass pre-teen eager to prove she's a tough guy. A lot of Clem's dialogue feels better suited to Becca than Clem herself. You wouldn't have to rewrite that much to make it fit other than Kenny. Ditch the prologue and time skip, sub-out Christa for Shel in the following scene and you're off and running.
Oh hey, it's the 'autistic' guy who's deemed himself the absolute authority on how to read disabled characters.
We have a right to complain when a sympathetic character is treated like trash by her own creators, and you have a right to take offense to that. That doesn't mean our opinions are invalid at all.
Hell, ever since Episode 5 came out and pretty much forced us to empathize with a pair of characters who were far less likable than Sarah (or Nick) were, I've become even more fond of the potential these forgotten two characters might have had.
You want a grim-dark story that glorifies being an asshole as the only way to live, then play a video game. I'd have liked something different.
That's all The Walking Dead is though. A Rand-ian look at surviving at all costs, being an asshole to survive in a "grim-dark" world. Do you shoot your best friend when he steals everything you have? Do you steal supplies from someone's car? Do you abandon a traumatized little girl out of simple convenience? Just because you're making the good decisions doesn't mean the original moral of the story is changed. You're not getting something different out of this franchise.
I never deemed myself as anything, I just know an Autistic when I see one, as I am one. You on the other hand, have proved yourself to be an insensitive dickwad.
Congratulations. I'm sure Daddy is really proud of you now.