Well, I say it's irrelevant because her intention was that he would be screaming in pain and draw the walkers to him, getting any attention off the main group. If she'd shot him in the leg, it'd be the same outcome; Troy is screaming on the ground and gets consumed. Yes, I imagine it hurts like a motherfucker to be shot in the balls, but it's not like she did it to condemn him to live on with permanent damage; he died five seconds later as per Jane's intention.
In other words, what ultimately calls Jane's morality into question at that point in time is the fact that she left him to die the way she did. I don't see why there would be more of a moral conundrum because the bullet blew his pecker off and not his kneecap. Like Bokor said, it just sounds like something only a dude would say.
He was all those things but I take shooting in the balls as a pretty huge and nasty thing to do to someone (can't see how the shooting and l… moreocation could possibly be irrelevant given the difference in damage it would cause). My default is that it is not justified and that nobody I would consider decent could do this unless in the most horrific of circumstances. What was set up did not show circumstances horrific enough for me. Not even close. Of all those actions you describe from Troy, shooting someone in the nads and leaving them for dead trumps every one of them on the scale of nastiness.
And yet she didn't shoot him in the leg. It was clearly a conscious choice to shoot him in the nuts. Yes, the outcome was the same but it comes with a sadistic and, yes, sexual intention. Just because the outcome is the same doesn't mean how you get there has no relevance. Don't get me wrong, we'd probably still be having a similar discussion if she had shot him in the leg but there is a sadistic quality to shooting him in the junk that goes beyond what we saw Troy himself ever do. Doesn't mean he hasn't been nasty, but we haven't seen that level in the game.
Well, I say it's irrelevant because her intention was that he would be screaming in pain and draw the walkers to him, getting any attention … moreoff the main group. If she'd shot him in the leg, it'd be the same outcome; Troy is screaming on the ground and gets consumed. Yes, I imagine it hurts like a motherfucker to be shot in the balls, but it's not like she did it to condemn him to live on with permanent damage; he died five seconds later as per Jane's intention.
In other words, what ultimately calls Jane's morality into question at that point in time is the fact that she left him to die the way she did. I don't see why there would be more of a moral conundrum because the bullet blew his pecker off and not his kneecap. Like Bokor said, it just sounds like something only a dude would say.
Jane was being very pragmatic. Nobody trusted Troy and he would have been a genuine liability to their escape. Rather than just shoot him in the head, she deliberately killed him in an extremely painful way both out of vengefulness and because his screams would keep the zombies' attention away from the humans walking past them.
Far as I'm concerned, Carver deserved to die the same way - emasculated and eaten alive. Kenny was stupid enough to let him have the last word and die in a relatively painless manner.
Well, I say it's irrelevant because her intention was that he would be screaming in pain and draw the walkers to him, getting any attention … moreoff the main group. If she'd shot him in the leg, it'd be the same outcome; Troy is screaming on the ground and gets consumed. Yes, I imagine it hurts like a motherfucker to be shot in the balls, but it's not like she did it to condemn him to live on with permanent damage; he died five seconds later as per Jane's intention.
In other words, what ultimately calls Jane's morality into question at that point in time is the fact that she left him to die the way she did. I don't see why there would be more of a moral conundrum because the bullet blew his pecker off and not his kneecap. Like Bokor said, it just sounds like something only a dude would say.
Please don't give the kenny trolls what they want. This is a really good thread and made some interesting points. Like for one, the comparison between Michonne and Jane. I never really noticed it until now.
Well that knife has cut through Kenny's stomach and stabbed Jane in the Knee before bearing down ever so slowly into Jane's chest, you could just chalk that up to blood dripping down onto the spot Jane was about to be stabbed for the kill.
Thank you. Well that's possible it was a mistake, but it looks like they animated the scene that Jane was first stabbed; most people just do… moren't notice it because it was such a distance away from Clem, Clem was very disoriented at that moment so things are blurry, and Clem was picking up the gun at that moment. It took me forever to find a proper walkthrough that portrayed it, even though it's still difficult to see.
Start at 5:51. The first stabbing actually takes place between 6:08 to 6:18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwP2Vx_bEbU
In addition, they leave the bloodstain on her model (her "character skin"? I don't know the exact terminology) for the rest of that day until they get to Howe's, where it's gone because presumably she washed it off after nine days.
Still could've been an error but you'd think someone at TT would notice after having Jane talk for a whole minute with that stain on her chest.
It's hilarious how you respond to a detailed, thought out, long post with two pieces of anecdotal evidence.
Pointing out those 2 little details is all that's needed to render this thread useless.
If she literally cared about no-one else then she wouldn't have helped Rebecca and Clem escape the horde, nor would she have returned and saved Kenny's life.
Uh maybe, but I really don't think so. The stain isn't composed of little droplets of blood; it looks like blood blooming from a wound that Jane just got from the center of that stain. We're getting down to the nitty-gritty here, but I don't think the blood that was already on the knife is enough to leave such a big stain like that.
Well that knife has cut through Kenny's stomach and stabbed Jane in the Knee before bearing down ever so slowly into Jane's chest, you could just chalk that up to blood dripping down onto the spot Jane was about to be stabbed for the kill.
He has done some things that i would not have done, terrible no. People make mistakes, do things when they are in a stressful situation. Troy was watching out for himself, and he had to be tough or he would of got the Regicide. Do you think Carver would treat Troy differently if he wasn't
aggressive, strong willed? Come on now.
We have no idea exactly what happened between Troy and Jane (somehow I doubt Troy raped her though it is possible; apparently originally Troy was supposed to have sexually abused her somehow but they cut this)
Your right WE HAVE NO IDEA what happened between Troy/Jane and it is inappropriate, that you infer that he has done something without proof.
Yeah, shooting a guy in the junk is terrible and he might not have deserved that, but we really don't know.
Did you forget that Troy saved Clementine's life in Episode 3? Troy deserved to be manipulated by Jane? He was shot in the dick and left to be eaten alive by zombies? Is that what your saying. What a great caring individual she is. She never "wronged" anyone that never hurt her, except Troy, Clementine, Luke, Sarah, the Russian guy. She didn't give two shits about anyone. Look at the Glee in her eyes when she tries to "convince" Troy to go with her, then she executes him in cold blood.
The same could equally be said about Kenny wanting Clem as a replacement for Duck.
Particularly with the fact that, you know, he actually calls her Duck at one point.
The same could equally be said about Kenny wanting Clem as a replacement for Duck.
I don´t really think he saw her as a replacement … morefor Duck.
Particularly with the fact that, you know, he actually calls her Duck at one point.
Do you remember his reaction or not?
Well I've updated the post by reordering some points and highlighting what I hope are newer points in the "Charges Made Against Jane" section for people far too used to this debate; I should've done that before. Hopefully it'll be easier to read now.
Ok. I think there's more in game evidence to support it than there is for Jane seeing clem as a replacement.
Of course I remember, he was… more surprised.
But that doesn't mean subconciously it isn't true. If he didn't view her as a replacement for him in his mind then he wouldn't have said it.
Ok. I think there's more in game evidence to support it than there is for Jane seeing clem as a replacement.
Well, honestly, I think there is more evidence to support that Jane saw Clem as a replacement for her sister.
Of course I remember, he was surprised.
He was horrified.
But that doesn't mean subconciously it isn't true. If he didn't view her as a replacement for him in his mind then he wouldn't have said it.
I think that it was less Clem=Duck 2.0 and more that it was a second chance for him, as a father.
"I miss my boy. I miss him so much. I didn't raise him like I should've... Made mistakes... Wasn't there a whole lot for a couple years. Off on a boat somewhere or other. I thought I enjoyed that time away from them... From my family... But I'd give anything for one more second with them... To play catch with Duck. To touch Katjaa's face. Anything in the world..."
Also:
"You know, when I saw you back at the loodge, I thougth I was dreaming. And when you sat down next to me, and we shared that meal... well, I could tell that you were different now. Grown up. I felt...pride... a pride I hadn´t fell in a long time."
Ok. I think there's more in game evidence to support it than there is for Jane seeing clem as a replacement.
Of course I remember, he was… more surprised.
But that doesn't mean subconciously it isn't true. If he didn't view her as a replacement for him in his mind then he wouldn't have said it.
Guys I appreciate your arguments. However this is a Jane thread, and bringing up Kenny's negative points to combat points about Jane isn't for this thread, even to point out hypocrisies. No Kenny VERSUS Jane, just Jane here, unless it's about how Jane feels/reacts towards Kenny.
Ok. I think there's more in game evidence to support it than there is for Jane seeing clem as a replacement.
Well, honestly, I think… more there is more evidence to support that Jane saw Clem as a replacement for her sister.
Of course I remember, he was surprised.
He was horrified.
But that doesn't mean subconciously it isn't true. If he didn't view her as a replacement for him in his mind then he wouldn't have said it.
I think that it was less Clem=Duck 2.0 and more that it was a second chance for him, as a father.
"I miss my boy. I miss him so much. I didn't raise him like I should've... Made mistakes... Wasn't there a whole lot for a couple years. Off on a boat somewhere or other. I thought I enjoyed that time away from them... From my family... But I'd give anything for one more second with them... To play catch with Duck. To touch Katjaa's face. Anything in the world..."
Also:
"You know, when I saw … [view original content]
Isn't Kenny seeing Clem as a second chance to be a father essentially the same as what people say about Jane as a sister?
They seem to say Jane only likes Clem because she couldn't save her sister, and Clem has replaced her. That's evidently what you think about Kenny: he views it like it's his second chance to be a father, to protect his child.
Ok. I think there's more in game evidence to support it than there is for Jane seeing clem as a replacement.
Well, honestly, I think… more there is more evidence to support that Jane saw Clem as a replacement for her sister.
Of course I remember, he was surprised.
He was horrified.
But that doesn't mean subconciously it isn't true. If he didn't view her as a replacement for him in his mind then he wouldn't have said it.
I think that it was less Clem=Duck 2.0 and more that it was a second chance for him, as a father.
"I miss my boy. I miss him so much. I didn't raise him like I should've... Made mistakes... Wasn't there a whole lot for a couple years. Off on a boat somewhere or other. I thought I enjoyed that time away from them... From my family... But I'd give anything for one more second with them... To play catch with Duck. To touch Katjaa's face. Anything in the world..."
Also:
"You know, when I saw … [view original content]
Guys I appreciate your arguments. However this is a Jane thread, and bringing up Kenny's negative points to combat points about Jane isn't f… moreor this thread, even to point out hypocrisies. No Kenny VERSUS Jane, just Jane here, unless it's about how Jane feels/reacts towards Kenny.
They seem to say Jane only likes Clem because she couldn't save her sister, and Clem has replaced her.
They say that to Jane, Clem is a replacement for Jaime. A literal remplacement.
That's evidently what you think about Kenny: he views it like it's his second chance to be a father, to protect his child.
No. I think that he views it as is second chance to be a father, yes, but I don´t think he is remplacing Duck with Clem. Unlike Jane. Just listen to her dialogue, when you go with her to find Sarah and Luke. When she talks about Clem´s jacket, for example.
Jane: I am just trying to give you the tools you need to make it. Like your jacket. It looks warm, but a walker will bite rigth througth that. My sister Jaime had a good leather one. Wish I still had it. You could have...
Isn't Kenny seeing Clem as a second chance to be a father essentially the same as what people say about Jane as a sister?
They seem to sa… morey Jane only likes Clem because she couldn't save her sister, and Clem has replaced her. That's evidently what you think about Kenny: he views it like it's his second chance to be a father, to protect his child.
Oh a 'literal' replacement? That...doesn't mean anything.
....She says her sister used to have a great leather jacket, so that the plot has a reason to flesh out her backstory, and that means she's trying to replace her with Clem?
Again, I don't see how Kenny treating Clem as a second chance to be a father is better than Jane treating Clem as a second chance to be a sister.
They seem to say Jane only likes Clem because she couldn't save her sister, and Clem has replaced her.
They say that to Jane, Clem i… mores a replacement for Jaime. A literal remplacement.
That's evidently what you think about Kenny: he views it like it's his second chance to be a father, to protect his child.
No. I think that he views it as is second chance to be a father, yes, but I don´t think he is remplacing Duck with Clem. Unlike Jane. Just listen to her dialogue, when you go with her to find Sarah and Luke. When she talks about Clem´s jacket, for example.
Jane: I am just trying to give you the tools you need to make it. Like your jacket. It looks warm, but a walker will bite rigth througth that. My sister Jaime had a good leather one. Wish I still had it. You could have...
Oh a 'literal' replacement? That...doesn't mean anything.
It means:
Clem=Jaime 2.0
....She says her sister used to have a great leather jacket, so that the plot has a reason to flesh out her backstory, and that means she's trying to replace her with Clem?
No. You are misunderstanding me.
I mean that Jane wanted to give Clem something for her (dead) sister, so...
Well, that implies it heavily.
Again, I don't see how Kenny treating Clem as a second chance to be a father is better than Jane treating Clem as a second chance to be a sister.
Because Kenny is just taking it as a second chance to be a father, but Jane is looking for a remplacement.
Oh a 'literal' replacement? That...doesn't mean anything.
....She says her sister used to have a great leather jacket, so that the plot h… moreas a reason to flesh out her backstory, and that means she's trying to replace her with Clem?
Again, I don't see how Kenny treating Clem as a second chance to be a father is better than Jane treating Clem as a second chance to be a sister.
Isn't Kenny seeing Clem as a second chance to be a father essentially the same as what people say about Jane as a sister?
Yes it is similar.
But you're both talking about how individuals here are thinking of the characters of both Kenny and Jane. Neither of you are talking about how Jane and Kenny actually interact in the game, or how Jane/Kenny feels/reacts towards the other; you're comparing Kenny and Jane out of context of each other (out of context, in terms of the actual story-line), and you're discussing them in terms of individuals' opinions on them. In turn this can be inferred to mean (since you both are comparing the two) you prefer one over the other, and thus it seems you're talking about the choice of Kenny vs. Jane. This is the whole reason the older threads were closed. I'm trying my best to not talk about peoples' differing opinions of the two of them here or the actual choice between Jane and Kenny. I'm not saying both of your points aren't valid. And I wish we didn't have to, but unfortunately we've got to be careful of what we say; otherwise this thread will get closed for sure.
Isn't Kenny seeing Clem as a second chance to be a father essentially the same as what people say about Jane as a sister?
They seem to sa… morey Jane only likes Clem because she couldn't save her sister, and Clem has replaced her. That's evidently what you think about Kenny: he views it like it's his second chance to be a father, to protect his child.
Also, Jane is the one to volunteer to go find Luke, Nick, and Sarah, to literally make the group bigger and NOT smaller
as she said a lot of times, she dont care no one but clem in the group. She only wanted to be with clem alone., teaching her skills so she wont die. Again, just a better replacement for her sister
Never give in. We need more people on this forum who can argue using evidence and facts, but without insults. You are one of them, and I truly respect your opinion. You also did change my mind about Jane, so keep talking like you do, and more people will respect and listen to you sialark.
"Hypocrisies" was the wrong word; I'm sorry. I think what I meant to say was how both of you are pointing out how you both feel about Jane/Kenny as being/wanting to be close to Clem, when you're both right.
The writers did this on purpose; we were supposed to feel that Kenny and Jane wanted to be with Clem and possibly be future family for her.
Trying to decide on if either of these relationships were unhealthily close however I think will just result in no strong conclusion either way; hence I haven't really gotten into it. Though I have defended Jane from that charge in the OP, I'm not sure this is the place to compare Jane to Kenny.
Guys I appreciate your arguments.
Guys? I didn´t bring up Kenny. Flog did.
However this is a Jane thread,
Okay.
… moreand bringing up Kenny's negative points to combat points about Jane isn't for this thread, even to point out hypocrisies.
dafuq?
No Kenny VERSUS Jane, just Jane here, unless it's about how Jane feels/reacts towards Kenny.
Okay.
Never give in. We need more people on this forum who can argue using evidence and facts, but without insults. You are one of them, and I tru… morely respect your opinion. You also did change my mind about Jane, so keep talking like you do, and more people will respect and listen to you sialark.
Awesome thread with good points. Someone likes to reject all the good sides in a character just because they don't like ONE thing he or she does. And your thread gives a lot of objective & fair points.
Still I have an very important question about the final fight. It matters a lot about people's lives so I hope you can answer me. In this pic:
Is the plant growing beside Jane's head edible？
Just a bad joke. Thank you again for the points~
Edit: just notice that the lovely plant disappears in the third pic >_< ... Hell with the fighting ones. RIP dear little herb.
I have mean to address this post since I saw this-especially because you compared Lee with Jane, and Kenny with the Governor- but I don´t have that much time right now, so I going to go over this section by section. So I am going to start with the part about the figth.
--------> in mind at this point we don’t know if Wellington even exists, let alone where it is.
We know is in Michigan, and we have enough evidence to say there was pretty much no chance Welligton was false.
In Jane’s mind, Kenny was bringing them on a suicidal mission, looking for an unknown location with no food and dwindling fuel for the car. In the truck, they say:
Can´t comment on this. Like you say, is ‘in Jane´s mind’.
Perhaps she didn't want this for Kenny either,
I don´t think so. Remember when she is willing to leave him to die right after the argument in the car? For me, that shows enough about her intentions.
but she knew Kenny couldn't be persuaded to abandon his own plan; she had already tried to convince him.
So what? Does it make it right to try to kill him? She could have stopped the fight and any moment, but chose to continue it. She had no other intention but to remove Kenny out the picture, by killing him. That was the only choice in her mind. Everything she does in the fight shows this.
At the rest stop, Jane’s original plan was to separate Kenny from Clem somehow.
By killing him.
She didn’t plan on killing Kenny from the start,
What did you think she intended, then? Even if you think Jane is somewhat noble, you should be able to accept that she had given out of words because of the truck argument. The only choice in her mind was to kill Kenny, and her whole plan was designed to drive Kenny into a fight which she could either win because Kenny has only one eye and no weapon or lose and having Clem shot Kenny, because he clearly “snapped”.
and she didn’t know that Kenny would kill her from the start.
Kenny: I fucking kill you!
Jane: I… knew you would.
But she realized she had to kill Kenny
Had to? Hah, no. If she really cared enough about Clementine, and less for herself, she could have stopped the fight, show that AJ was alive, and let Clem make out her own mind.
he threatened to kill her verbally (he can do this 6 times)
I don´t see how the “six times” part is in anyway relevant to this discussion, seeing that the majority of said threats are after Jane tries to kill him by slashing his stomach.
when he had no evidence that Jane had done anything wrong
She said AJ was dead. That´s evidence. She is unharmed. That´s evidence.
Kenny simply reached the only reasonable conclusion with all the facts he had.
before Jane ever threatens to kill him (she can threaten him 1 time),
And?
2) he followed up on his threats by fighting with and trying to kill her,
You mean the smash her into the window moment? Okay, then. I still think he was not trying to kill her, that it was more like the response he had
with Ben-or the determinant fight with Lee on the train- just pure anger. Until, you know, Jane slashed his stomach.
EDIT: I realized that I should explain myself better, on this point. When Ben confesses that he is responsible for the death of his family, Kenny is angry and threatens to kill him.
"You little pissant! You're fucking dead, do you hear me?! Dead! My wife and child, you got them both fucking killed! If this asshole thinks he's getting on my boat after what he did, he's out of his motherfucking mind! You hear me shitbird?! You can stay behind and fucking rot!"
But after they get out of Crawford, he doesn´t try to kill him despite fully knowing that the deaths of Duck and Katjaa were all Ben´s fault.
3) after Jane gave him the option to leave them peacefully, and he didn’t:
That´s hardly Kenny´s fault. You expect him to accept Jane´s offer and leave Clementine with a baby killer? No. Even with a slashed stomach, he was not going to allow Jane to be a threat to Clementine any longer.
At this point, Jane decided that it wasn’t safe for Kenny to be around Clem anymore
She decided that Kenny wasn´t safe to be around Clementine long before that. Even at the unfished house, is clear she is thinking that.
if he was going to irrationally kill people without evidence
She said AJ was dead. That´s evidence. She is unharmed. That´s evidence.
Kenny simply reached the only reasonable conclusion with all the facts he had.
and so since he wouldn’t leave them alone, she decided to kill him.<--------
o.o Did you guys know dandelions (a weed in the US) are edible? They didn't need to go anywhere; they had food right here at the rest stop! Why are they fighting?! T.T Lol yes, RIP little herb; ye shall be missed.
Awesome thread with good points. Someone likes to reject all the good sides in a character just because they don't like ONE thing he or she … moredoes. And your thread gives a lot of objective & fair points.
Still I have an very important question about the final fight. It matters a lot about people's lives so I hope you can answer me. In this pic:
Is the plant growing beside Jane's head edible？
Just a bad joke. Thank you again for the points~
Edit: just notice that the lovely plant disappears in the third pic >_< ... Hell with the fighting ones. RIP dear little herb.
I see you haven't read all of the megathread. I've addressed the majority of the points you bring up here there. For now, please refer to this and this though I will address your points individually later.
I have mean to address this post since I saw this-especially because you compared Lee with Jane, and Kenny with the Governor- but I don´t ha… moreve that much time right now, so I going to go over this section by section. So I am going to start with the part about the figth.
--------> in mind at this point we don’t know if Wellington even exists, let alone where it is.
We know is in Michigan, and we have enough evidence to say there was pretty much no chance Welligton was false.
In Jane’s mind, Kenny was bringing them on a suicidal mission, looking for an unknown location with no food and dwindling fuel for the car. In the truck, they say:
Can´t comment on this. Like you say, is ‘in Jane´s mind’.
Perhaps she didn't want this for Kenny either,
I don´t think so. Remember when she is willing to leave him to die right after the argument in the car? For me, that shows enough about her intentions.
but sh… [view original content]
o.o Did you guys know dandelions (a weed in the US) are edible? They didn't need to go anywhere; they had food right here at the rest stop! Why are they fighting?! T.T Lol yes, RIP little herb; ye shall be missed.
Haha thank you.
Hm. I love this thread. Not because I despise Kenny and picked Jane (maybe these are the reasons too) but because you gave a new light on Jane's character and I probably wouldn't think of those.
Thanks! You made me even more sure to NOT change my ending.
Comments
If only you had stopped after the Michonne.comparison.
Well, I say it's irrelevant because her intention was that he would be screaming in pain and draw the walkers to him, getting any attention off the main group. If she'd shot him in the leg, it'd be the same outcome; Troy is screaming on the ground and gets consumed. Yes, I imagine it hurts like a motherfucker to be shot in the balls, but it's not like she did it to condemn him to live on with permanent damage; he died five seconds later as per Jane's intention.
In other words, what ultimately calls Jane's morality into question at that point in time is the fact that she left him to die the way she did. I don't see why there would be more of a moral conundrum because the bullet blew his pecker off and not his kneecap. Like Bokor said, it just sounds like something only a dude would say.
And yet she didn't shoot him in the leg. It was clearly a conscious choice to shoot him in the nuts. Yes, the outcome was the same but it comes with a sadistic and, yes, sexual intention. Just because the outcome is the same doesn't mean how you get there has no relevance. Don't get me wrong, we'd probably still be having a similar discussion if she had shot him in the leg but there is a sadistic quality to shooting him in the junk that goes beyond what we saw Troy himself ever do. Doesn't mean he hasn't been nasty, but we haven't seen that level in the game.
Jane was being very pragmatic. Nobody trusted Troy and he would have been a genuine liability to their escape. Rather than just shoot him in the head, she deliberately killed him in an extremely painful way both out of vengefulness and because his screams would keep the zombies' attention away from the humans walking past them.
Far as I'm concerned, Carver deserved to die the same way - emasculated and eaten alive. Kenny was stupid enough to let him have the last word and die in a relatively painless manner.
Lolol well that's the whole point of a thread isn't it?
No, I won't give in. Thank you.
You're right; I won't.
Well that knife has cut through Kenny's stomach and stabbed Jane in the Knee before bearing down ever so slowly into Jane's chest, you could just chalk that up to blood dripping down onto the spot Jane was about to be stabbed for the kill.
Jane is just a insane piece of shit that the only thing she wanted is to have clem to herself. Just a replacement for her dead sister
Really?
Does pointing out the fact that Kenny can try to leave Lee to die and refuse to save a little girl make all defenses of HIS character useless?
If she literally cared about no-one else then she wouldn't have helped Rebecca and Clem escape the horde, nor would she have returned and saved Kenny's life.
Uh maybe, but I really don't think so. The stain isn't composed of little droplets of blood; it looks like blood blooming from a wound that Jane just got from the center of that stain. We're getting down to the nitty-gritty here, but I don't think the blood that was already on the knife is enough to leave such a big stain like that.
The same could equally be said about Kenny wanting Clem as a replacement for Duck.
Particularly with the fact that, you know, he actually calls her Duck at one point.
He has done some things that i would not have done, terrible no. People make mistakes, do things when they are in a stressful situation. Troy was watching out for himself, and he had to be tough or he would of got the Regicide. Do you think Carver would treat Troy differently if he wasn't
aggressive, strong willed? Come on now.
Your right WE HAVE NO IDEA what happened between Troy/Jane and it is inappropriate, that you infer that he has done something without proof.
Did you forget that Troy saved Clementine's life in Episode 3? Troy deserved to be manipulated by Jane? He was shot in the dick and left to be eaten alive by zombies? Is that what your saying. What a great caring individual she is. She never "wronged" anyone that never hurt her, except Troy, Clementine, Luke, Sarah, the Russian guy. She didn't give two shits about anyone. Look at the Glee in her eyes when she tries to "convince" Troy to go with her, then she executes him in cold blood.
I don´t really think he saw her as a replacement for Duck.
Do you remember his reaction or not?
Ok. I think there's more in game evidence to support it than there is for Jane seeing clem as a replacement.
Of course I remember, he was surprised.
But that doesn't mean subconciously it isn't true. If he didn't view her as a replacement for him in his mind then he wouldn't have said it.
Well I've updated the post by reordering some points and highlighting what I hope are newer points in the "Charges Made Against Jane" section for people far too used to this debate; I should've done that before. Hopefully it'll be easier to read now.
You never called someone the wrong name before?
Well, honestly, I think there is more evidence to support that Jane saw Clem as a replacement for her sister.
He was horrified.
I think that it was less Clem=Duck 2.0 and more that it was a second chance for him, as a father.
"I miss my boy. I miss him so much. I didn't raise him like I should've... Made mistakes... Wasn't there a whole lot for a couple years. Off on a boat somewhere or other. I thought I enjoyed that time away from them... From my family... But I'd give anything for one more second with them... To play catch with Duck. To touch Katjaa's face. Anything in the world..."
Also:
"You know, when I saw you back at the loodge, I thougth I was dreaming. And when you sat down next to me, and we shared that meal... well, I could tell that you were different now. Grown up. I felt...pride... a pride I hadn´t fell in a long time."
Guys I appreciate your arguments. However this is a Jane thread, and bringing up Kenny's negative points to combat points about Jane isn't for this thread, even to point out hypocrisies. No Kenny VERSUS Jane, just Jane here, unless it's about how Jane feels/reacts towards Kenny.
Isn't Kenny seeing Clem as a second chance to be a father essentially the same as what people say about Jane as a sister?
They seem to say Jane only likes Clem because she couldn't save her sister, and Clem has replaced her. That's evidently what you think about Kenny: he views it like it's his second chance to be a father, to protect his child.
Guys? I didn´t bring up Kenny. Flog did.
Okay.
dafuq?
Okay.
I've never called someone I've spoken to about twice the same name as a close family member, no.
I've done it.
They say that to Jane, Clem is a replacement for Jaime. A literal remplacement.
No. I think that he views it as is second chance to be a father, yes, but I don´t think he is remplacing Duck with Clem. Unlike Jane. Just listen to her dialogue, when you go with her to find Sarah and Luke. When she talks about Clem´s jacket, for example.
Jane: I am just trying to give you the tools you need to make it. Like your jacket. It looks warm, but a walker will bite rigth througth that. My sister Jaime had a good leather one. Wish I still had it. You could have...
Oh a 'literal' replacement? That...doesn't mean anything.
....She says her sister used to have a great leather jacket, so that the plot has a reason to flesh out her backstory, and that means she's trying to replace her with Clem?
Again, I don't see how Kenny treating Clem as a second chance to be a father is better than Jane treating Clem as a second chance to be a sister.
It means:
Clem=Jaime 2.0
No. You are misunderstanding me.
I mean that Jane wanted to give Clem something for her (dead) sister, so...
Well, that implies it heavily.
Because Kenny is just taking it as a second chance to be a father, but Jane is looking for a remplacement.
Yes it is similar.
But you're both talking about how individuals here are thinking of the characters of both Kenny and Jane. Neither of you are talking about how Jane and Kenny actually interact in the game, or how Jane/Kenny feels/reacts towards the other; you're comparing Kenny and Jane out of context of each other (out of context, in terms of the actual story-line), and you're discussing them in terms of individuals' opinions on them. In turn this can be inferred to mean (since you both are comparing the two) you prefer one over the other, and thus it seems you're talking about the choice of Kenny vs. Jane. This is the whole reason the older threads were closed. I'm trying my best to not talk about peoples' differing opinions of the two of them here or the actual choice between Jane and Kenny. I'm not saying both of your points aren't valid. And I wish we didn't have to, but unfortunately we've got to be careful of what we say; otherwise this thread will get closed for sure.
I hope I'm making sense.
as she said a lot of times, she dont care no one but clem in the group. She only wanted to be with clem alone., teaching her skills so she wont die. Again, just a better replacement for her sister
Never give in. We need more people on this forum who can argue using evidence and facts, but without insults. You are one of them, and I truly respect your opinion. You also did change my mind about Jane, so keep talking like you do, and more people will respect and listen to you sialark.
"Hypocrisies" was the wrong word; I'm sorry. I think what I meant to say was how both of you are pointing out how you both feel about Jane/Kenny as being/wanting to be close to Clem, when you're both right.
The writers did this on purpose; we were supposed to feel that Kenny and Jane wanted to be with Clem and possibly be future family for her.
Trying to decide on if either of these relationships were unhealthily close however I think will just result in no strong conclusion either way; hence I haven't really gotten into it. Though I have defended Jane from that charge in the OP, I'm not sure this is the place to compare Jane to Kenny.
And thanks for stopping.
Thank you for your lovely words. I shall continue, and I'm very pleased to hear you've changed your mind on Jane.
I didn't think she was that well written, mostly because she feels like a copy paste of Molly to me.
Awesome thread with good points. Someone likes to reject all the good sides in a character just because they don't like ONE thing he or she does. And your thread gives a lot of objective & fair points.
Still I have an very important question about the final fight. It matters a lot about people's lives so I hope you can answer me. In this pic:
Is the plant growing beside Jane's head edible？
Just a bad joke. Thank you again for the points~
Edit: just notice that the lovely plant disappears in the third pic >_< ... Hell with the fighting ones. RIP dear little herb.
I have mean to address this post since I saw this-especially because you compared Lee with Jane, and Kenny with the Governor- but I don´t have that much time right now, so I going to go over this section by section. So I am going to start with the part about the figth.
We know is in Michigan, and we have enough evidence to say there was pretty much no chance Welligton was false.
Can´t comment on this. Like you say, is ‘in Jane´s mind’.
I don´t think so. Remember when she is willing to leave him to die right after the argument in the car? For me, that shows enough about her intentions.
So what? Does it make it right to try to kill him? She could have stopped the fight and any moment, but chose to continue it. She had no other intention but to remove Kenny out the picture, by killing him. That was the only choice in her mind. Everything she does in the fight shows this.
By killing him.
What did you think she intended, then? Even if you think Jane is somewhat noble, you should be able to accept that she had given out of words because of the truck argument. The only choice in her mind was to kill Kenny, and her whole plan was designed to drive Kenny into a fight which she could either win because Kenny has only one eye and no weapon or lose and having Clem shot Kenny, because he clearly “snapped”.
Kenny: I fucking kill you!
Jane: I… knew you would.
Had to? Hah, no. If she really cared enough about Clementine, and less for herself, she could have stopped the fight, show that AJ was alive, and let Clem make out her own mind.
I don´t see how the “six times” part is in anyway relevant to this discussion, seeing that the majority of said threats are after Jane tries to kill him by slashing his stomach.
She said AJ was dead. That´s evidence. She is unharmed. That´s evidence.
Kenny simply reached the only reasonable conclusion with all the facts he had.
And?
You mean the smash her into the window moment? Okay, then. I still think he was not trying to kill her, that it was more like the response he had
with Ben-or the determinant fight with Lee on the train- just pure anger. Until, you know, Jane slashed his stomach.
EDIT: I realized that I should explain myself better, on this point. When Ben confesses that he is responsible for the death of his family, Kenny is angry and threatens to kill him.
"You little pissant! You're fucking dead, do you hear me?! Dead! My wife and child, you got them both fucking killed! If this asshole thinks he's getting on my boat after what he did, he's out of his motherfucking mind! You hear me shitbird?! You can stay behind and fucking rot!"
But after they get out of Crawford, he doesn´t try to kill him despite fully knowing that the deaths of Duck and Katjaa were all Ben´s fault.
That´s hardly Kenny´s fault. You expect him to accept Jane´s offer and leave Clementine with a baby killer? No. Even with a slashed stomach, he was not going to allow Jane to be a threat to Clementine any longer.
She decided that Kenny wasn´t safe to be around Clementine long before that. Even at the unfished house, is clear she is thinking that.
She said AJ was dead. That´s evidence. She is unharmed. That´s evidence.
Kenny simply reached the only reasonable conclusion with all the facts he had.
Jane decided to kill Kenny long before that.
o.o Did you guys know dandelions (a weed in the US) are edible? They didn't need to go anywhere; they had food right here at the rest stop! Why are they fighting?! T.T Lol yes, RIP little herb; ye shall be missed.
Haha thank you.
I see you haven't read all of the megathread. I've addressed the majority of the points you bring up here there. For now, please refer to this and this though I will address your points individually later.
Edit: Updated response below.
I did read all, good post
I agree.
You can boil the roots/leaves and make tea
Hm. I love this thread. Not because I despise Kenny and picked Jane (maybe these are the reasons too) but because you gave a new light on Jane's character and I probably wouldn't think of those.
Thanks! You made me even more sure to NOT change my ending.