You can eat the leaves too in salads! I've seen them being sold at a normal grocery story, Shoprite! And you can eat the flowers too. And don't forget about dandelion wine.
Also I haven't forgotten about your comment on Troy; will get back you in a while.
You can eat the leaves too in salads! I've seen them being sold at a normal grocery story, Shoprite! And you can eat the flowers too. And do… moren't forget about dandelion wine.
Also I haven't forgotten about your comment on Troy; will get back you in a while.
At the beginning of episode five, Jane was willing to work with Kenny. She counted on Clementine to talk some sense into him. If someone could find the screenshot, that would be great. I don't know exactly what she said, but I know she quickly changed her mind once she saw what Kenny did to Arvo.
The only thing that makes my ending difficult was letting the family in or not. Black Child, Hispanic Molly, and White Carlos... Hmmm
He has done some things that i would not have done, terrible no. People make mistakes, do things when they are in a stressful situation. Troy was watching out for himself, and he had to be tough or he would of got the Regicide. Do you think Carver would treat Troy differently if he wasn't aggressive, strong willed? Come on now.
After reading you comment here I realized you were right; he had never committed a deed worse than following orders, that we saw. I changed that part of the post about him being "terrible." It wasn't fair of me to judge Troy without thinking of things from his perspective just like it's unfair of people to judge Jane without thinking of things from her perspective. Unfortunately however, I found some more things about him....
Your right WE HAVE NO IDEA what happened between Troy/Jane and it is inappropriate, that you infer that he has done something without proof.
Troy deserved to be manipulated by Jane? He was shot in the dick and left to be eaten alive by zombies? Is that what your saying.
In a response to a comment saying, "I wanted to kill you [Troy] after you hit Clem " his reply was, "Oh he deserved it..." In addition, he says, "There were some scenes he didn't use that made him WAY worse." So unfortunately it looks like Troy's VA even believes that Troy deserved to die. This is Mr. Thomas' opinion. However as the VA, he knows more about Troy's character than we do. Whether he deserved to die in the way he did is another matter however.
Now we should talk about the statement, "Shooting a man in the dick and leaving them to get eaten by zombies is something wrong." Now of course it is; no matter what Troy could've done, two wrongs don't make a right. But we're talking about Jane's opinion here, and it could've been justified to her.
I don't take deleted scenes to be canon; therefore I can't make any conclusions on what Troy actually did, apart from Mr. Thomas saying Troy deserved to die. I'm not going to speculate what Troy could've done even in canon; there are plenty of people who think, "No crime could be bad enough to deserve a man's junk to be shot." Apart from rape, I don't have a good enough imagination to wonder what Troy could've done that's equivalent, and I'm not going to try to imagine them either. But if I never would have imagined the action of shooting a man's dick off, I'm sure there are other actions that Troy could have committed that are just as heinous that I just would not be able to think of (and I'd prefer to not think of.)
Plus, the other group members leaving Carver's never bring up anything about Jane shooting Troy in the balls which is odd; you'd think they might be a bit more appalled at what she'd done, especially since they could've known Troy better than we do.
Also it looks like you ignored my whole second paragraph on Jane in the Troy section (which I'll paste here again since scrolling back up there to find it would be a pain lol): "Also, as I said before, I get the vibe that something happened to Jane where she put emotional walls up to defend herself from being hurt; remember not many are born with such high emotional walls. Possibly before Jane was in some relationship that did go sour. The end resulted in her putting up walls, not allowing anyone in except those she already knew and loved/trusted (e.g. Jaime and later Clem and Luke). From there she could've had casual sex though not many committed relationships, never bringing her walls down completely. I imagine when she shot him, Jane thought of Troy as every asshole she's ever been with. Perhaps she got revenge unjustly on Troy."
I had noted how Jane could've gotten revenge on Troy unfairly, remember?
Did you forget that Troy saved Clementine's life in Episode 3?
Yes I did actually; sometimes I do. But thanks for reminding me; I won't anymore. However I have to point out that if he was acting under Carver's orders, using your same argument it could also be argued Troy was acting under orders to save Clem as well. It was Troy's job to oversee these people, and if a girl died on his watch (a girl that Carver seemed to be taking a special interest in) then this would just feed Carver's perception of Troy being incompetent, which wouldn't help Troy.
Or maybe Troy's action here just proves that he couldn't let a little girl die, no matter his exterior or actions we don't know about.
Troy was a terrible person
He has done some things that i would not have done, terrible no. People make mistakes, do things when th… moreey are in a stressful situation. Troy was watching out for himself, and he had to be tough or he would of got the Regicide. Do you think Carver would treat Troy differently if he wasn't
aggressive, strong willed? Come on now.
We have no idea exactly what happened between Troy and Jane (somehow I doubt Troy raped her though it is possible; apparently originally Troy was supposed to have sexually abused her somehow but they cut this)
Your right WE HAVE NO IDEA what happened between Troy/Jane and it is inappropriate, that you infer that he has done something without proof.
Yeah, shooting a guy in the junk is terrible and he might not have deserved that, but we really don't know.
Did you forget that Troy saved Clementine's life in Episode 3? Troy deserved to be manipulated b… [view original content]
She deliberately left a baby in a car surrounded by walkers to carry out her plan to murder Kenny. Crying draws walkers to you, as Jane would know, as she saw what happened to Sarah. She just didn't care, as she considered the baby a liability from the start.
That itself makes her death justified. There's no need to even point out her leaving a wounded Clementine to defend herself from walkers after promising she'd never do that again, leaving her sister to die, having sex instead of keeping a lookout - which led to Sarah's death, being reckless by robbing and threatening to murder Arvo - which could have gotten every single person in the group killed when the Russians took revenge, planning to murder Kenny by goading him into a fight knowing that he was unarmed and that she had a knife, etc.
If she had to be such a hated character, TellTale could have at least made her interesting like Carley. Instead they wrote up a dull, unrealistic character with no emotions. Unless she was supposed to be a plastic robot, she totally failed as a character, IMO.
Yeah that is true but during the truck scene she honestly had no choice. I mean she had a baby in her hands. All she could do was have faith… more in Clem and get the baby to safety.
She could have pushed the walker with her legs or grab the knife she had on her belt.
Now let's turn your statement towards Ken. He left a little girl and baby in a truck with a woman he doesn't trust, and walkers are near by.
He went to get gas and shit hit the fan. Meanwhile Jane is trying to make Clem do what Mike and Bonnie already did a couple hours ago.
I agree with Alan on this one. Maybe Jane does see Clem as another Jaime. Maybe taking care of Clem is her way of atoning for what she did to her sister. But even if that's the case so what? I don't see anything wrong with that and I feel that it would make Clem's story even more interesting.
Oh a 'literal' replacement? That...doesn't mean anything.
....She says her sister used to have a great leather jacket, so that the plot h… moreas a reason to flesh out her backstory, and that means she's trying to replace her with Clem?
Again, I don't see how Kenny treating Clem as a second chance to be a father is better than Jane treating Clem as a second chance to be a sister.
Not in a snow storm apparently because if that were the case then walkers would have surrounded the car..
" to carry out her plan to murder Kenny"
If she actually wanted to kill Kenny she wouldn't have sheathed her knife nor would she give Kenny the opportunity to pounce on her.
"There's no need to even point out her leaving a wounded Clementine to defend herself from walkers"
Kenny left Clem and the baby. Mybad for pointing that out.
"leaving her sister to die"
Her sister wanted to die. In reality you really can't force someone to survive if they honestly don't want to. No that wasn't a good think but she had no choice and that action is certainly not worse than beating up a crippled kid.
"having sex instead of keeping a lookout"
She's human.
"which led to Sarah's death"
No Sarah just didn't have what it took to survive without her father. Even though I fell bad about the sarah situation as well she was going to die sooner or later.
"planning to murder Kenny by goading him into a fight knowing that he was unarmed and that she had a knife"
That would make sense had she not sheathed her knife before the fight began.
She deliberately left a baby in a car surrounded by walkers to carry out her plan to murder Kenny. Crying draws walkers to you, as Jane woul… mored know, as she saw what happened to Sarah. She just didn't care, as she considered the baby a liability from the start.
That itself makes her death justified. There's no need to even point out her leaving a wounded Clementine to defend herself from walkers after promising she'd never do that again, leaving her sister to die, having sex instead of keeping a lookout - which led to Sarah's death, being reckless by robbing and threatening to murder Arvo - which could have gotten every single person in the group killed when the Russians took revenge, planning to murder Kenny by goading him into a fight knowing that he was unarmed and that she had a knife, etc.
If she had to be such a hated character, TellTale could have at least made her interesting like Carley. Instead they wrote up a dull, unrealistic … [view original content]
"Not in a snow storm apparently because if that were the case then walkers would have surrounded the car.."
The baby wasn't crying at that point. That's why it wasn't walker food.
"If she actually wanted to kill Kenny she wouldn't have sheathed her knife nor would she give Kenny the opportunity to pounce on her."
Um there is absolutely no doubt that she planned on killing Kenny. She tells Clementine that she knows what his reaction is going to be. She also knows that he's unarmed and that she has a large knife. The fact that Clementine can try to prevent it does not change the fact that she did try to goad him to his death. It's ridiculous to try to deny that.
"Kenny left Clem and the baby. Mybad for pointing that out."
Again, that's pretty ridiculous. He went out alone and unarmed to make sure it was safe for Clem and the baby.
"Her sister wanted to die. In reality you really can't force someone to survive if they honestly don't want to. No that wasn't a good think but she had no choice and that action is certainly not worse than beating up a crippled kid."
Jane has been totally selfish and never been there for anyone but herself. She tried to rob and murder the same crippled kid without provocation, as opposed to hitting the kid after he brought armed men to kill everyone in his group.
"She's human."
She's reckless.
"No Sarah just didn't have what it took to survive without her father. Even though I fell bad about the sarah situation as well she was going to die sooner or later."
Jane's irresponsibility is what caused Sarah's death. There was supposed to be a lookout posted. She was not reliable.
"That would make sense had she not sheathed her knife before the fight began."
The fact that Clementine could try to prevent Jane's plan does not in any way deny that she had planned to murder Kenny.
"Crying draws walkers to you"
Not in a snow storm apparently because if that were the case then walkers would have surrounded the car..
… more " to carry out her plan to murder Kenny"
If she actually wanted to kill Kenny she wouldn't have sheathed her knife nor would she give Kenny the opportunity to pounce on her.
"There's no need to even point out her leaving a wounded Clementine to defend herself from walkers"
Kenny left Clem and the baby. Mybad for pointing that out.
"leaving her sister to die"
Her sister wanted to die. In reality you really can't force someone to survive if they honestly don't want to. No that wasn't a good think but she had no choice and that action is certainly not worse than beating up a crippled kid.
"having sex instead of keeping a lookout"
She's human.
"which led to Sarah's death"
No Sarah just didn't have what it took to survive without her father. Even though I fell bad about the sarah s… [view original content]
The baby was crying long enough to attract a walker if the snow storm had no effect on them.
There's absolutely no doubt that she wanted to kill kenny. ok explain. Don't just say that and expect reasonable people to agree with you. What you just gave me is beyond a fail. Lets disect.
"She knows that he's unarmed and that she has a knife."
Ok if she knew Ken was unarmed and wanted to kill him, again, why would she sheath her knife? Wait let me guess, a knife is more deadly with a cover on it. #sarcasm
"She tells Clem she knows what his reaction will be"
Soooooo? What's wrong with being observant?
Kenny went alone to make sure it was safe for Clem and the baby......no seriously? You gotta be kidding me. He went to go find gas. Next thing you hear him shooting at walkers. He should've turned back towards the truck and got Clem and Aj out of there. Kenny ran off saving his own skin.
Kenny didn't just hit Arvo. He beat him down. At least Jane took it easy on Arvo and let him go. Kenny turned that boy into a prisoner.
Yes she's reckless just like any other human.
Had it not have been for Jane Luke and Sarah would not have had a chance to make it out of that trailer. At least she tried to save sarah, who would have died eventually. Jane didnt force Sarah to stand still while the platform was falling. The poor girl caused that to happen to herself. Did you not see how she was standing before the platform fell? Did you not hear her scream daddy help me? She was traumatized. Once again she was going to die eventually because survival was the last thing on her mind.
Clem interrupting has nothing to do with it. If Jane wanted to kill Kenny she would not have given the opportunity to attack.
"Not in a snow storm apparently because if that were the case then walkers would have surrounded the car.."
The baby wasn't crying at tha… moret point. That's why it wasn't walker food.
"If she actually wanted to kill Kenny she wouldn't have sheathed her knife nor would she give Kenny the opportunity to pounce on her."
Um there is absolutely no doubt that she planned on killing Kenny. She tells Clementine that she knows what his reaction is going to be. She also knows that he's unarmed and that she has a large knife. The fact that Clementine can try to prevent it does not change the fact that she did try to goad him to his death. It's ridiculous to try to deny that.
"Kenny left Clem and the baby. Mybad for pointing that out."
Again, that's pretty ridiculous. He went out alone and unarmed to make sure it was safe for Clem and the baby.
"Her sister wanted to die. In reality you really can't force someone to survive if they honestly … [view original content]
The baby was crying long enough to attract a walker if the snow storm had no effect on them.
There's absolutely no doubt that she wanted … moreto kill kenny. ok explain. Don't just say that and expect reasonable people to agree with you. What you just gave me is beyond a fail. Lets disect.
"She knows that he's unarmed and that she has a knife."
Ok if she knew Ken was unarmed and wanted to kill him, again, why would she sheath her knife? Wait let me guess, a knife is more deadly with a cover on it. #sarcasm
"She tells Clem she knows what his reaction will be"
Soooooo? What's wrong with being observant?
Kenny went alone to make sure it was safe for Clem and the baby......no seriously? You gotta be kidding me. He went to go find gas. Next thing you hear him shooting at walkers. He should've turned back towards the truck and got Clem and Aj out of there. Kenny ran off saving his own skin.
Kenny didn't just hit Arvo. He beat him down. At… [view original content]
Nope we don't. They never say anywhere in the game that Wellington is actually in Michigan. Even Kenny the bearded god says so:
"Supposed to be a big camp up near Michigan." Even if Wellington does exist, (you're right; it probably does exist since we've heard so much about it, but no one bothered to tell Jane about those times it seems) just knowing that it's "near Michigan" really doesn't pinpoint the location at all, as that could mean it's in multiple states rather than just one state (even though Michigan itself is pretty darn big.) So as the location is so up in the air, it'd be pretty hard to find where it was exactly, and they'd only be able to find Wellington via trial and error, which could take forever, and thus be a very dangerous trip without proper resources. Therefore Jane knew it was a dangerous plan.
Not to mention, just because Wellington exists and Edith seems nice doesn't mean it's a safe haven full of other people as nice as Edith. For all we know it could be a Terminus-like place that's worse than it seems (personally I doubt that, though I have hindsight while Jane didn't). But it's still a possibility. (Really hoping they show us more of Wellington in Season 3.)
She could have stopped the fight and any moment, but chose to continue it.
If she really cared enough about Clementine, and less for herself, she could have stopped the fight, show that AJ was alive
I'm not blaming Jane for this; I'm blaming the writers. Survivor-Jane had already been stabbed once by Kenny as I've indicated before with these pics and was on the verge of death, and it would've made more sense for her to confess before being ultimately stabbed to death. Additionally why would Jane just die when her goal was to keep Clem away from Kenny in the first place, but Jane dying would just accomplish Clem staying with Kenny?
If Jane had confessed about AJ like it would've made sense for her survivor character to, there would've been no big final choice at the end of this game. Kenny wasn't going to stop if Jane had admitted AJ was alive. Kenny says, "Just imagining what she did to Alvie…everything just went black. By the time I got my head straight…it was too late."
If Kenny hadn't stopped trying to kill Jane after that confession, it's my opinion that near everyone would've realized Kenny was killing Jane for no good reason (if they believed Jane), and would've tried to stop Kenny (actually I might post a poll in the Jane/Kenny thread about that later). Hence the bad writing on Jane. Edit: Here's that poll.
But let me repeat that: if Jane's character had been written properly, there wouldn't have been a big, season-finale decision for the players to make. But Telltale couldn't have that. So they wrote Jane wrong.
Honestly I think if they'd had Jane confess, that would've been better story-telling wise, as it brings the final decision down to a more-emphasized trust issue, which the whole season was supposed to be themed around: Do you trust Jane is telling the truth about AJ, or do you trust Kenny is doing the right thing by killing Jane, even after she says the baby is okay? I'd like to know--what would you have honestly done if that had played out, AlanSpencer?
She had no other intention but to remove Kenny out the picture, by killing him.
The only choice in her mind was to kill Kenny, and her whole plan was designed to drive Kenny into a fight which she could either win because Kenny has only one eye and no weapon or lose and having Clem shot Kenny, because he clearly “snapped”.
Jane didn't know he'd kill her from the start, which is what I said multiple times. Let me break down why Jane didn't know Kenny would kill her from the beginning:
Jane: Just go.
Kenny: I ain’t goin' nowhere.
Jane: Fine. [Jane charges Kenny with the knife.])
Jane gave Kenny a chance to go peacefully. From the above dialogue, Jane would kill him if and only if he didn't leave. So, Jane wasn't sure if he would leave or not.
If Jane wasn't sure if he would leave or not as indicated just above, how could she possibly be sure Kenny would stay for certain and kill her? Therefore, Jane didn't know that Kenny would kill her from the start.
Jane tries to kill him by slashing his stomach.
Let's look at the silent playthrough:
[Jane and Kenny are struggling on the ground. Clem has the option to pull Jane off of Kenny. If Clem doesn’t, Kenny pushes Jane off of him eventually, knocking her back to the ground. He gets up and advances on her.]
K: You’re fuckin’ DEAD!
J: Fuck you! [Jane slices Kenny’s stomach.]
C: Oh my god… [Kenny retreats outside]
K: Grr!
J: THIS IS ALL YOUR FUCKIN’ FAULT! [Jane pursues Kenny through the door]
Note that this dialogue takes place for everyone if you wait long enough before choosing a dialogue option; therefore this dialogue is not determinant. Like I said before, I don't think it's Jane's intention to kill Kenny here just yet. You argue that Jane clearly wants to kill Kenny since she slashed his stomach. Yes, she does this after he declares, "You're fuckin' DEAD!" a clear death threat if I ever saw one. This statement is the first time in the fight that either Kenny or Jane declares a death threat or an intention to kill the other. (You said, "I don´t see how the [Kenny making a death threat] 'six times' part is in anyway relevant to this discussion...." Death threats and the number of death threats are important because they help us understand why the characters may act/respond the way they do, as well as the characters' emotions [Just how angry is Kenny? Probably more likely to actually kill someone the more times he makes a death threat.]) After he advances on her, she slashes his stomach, probably out of instinct or just to drive him back. Wouldn't you do the same if someone had just verbally threatened to kill you and was advancing on you while you were on the floor in a vulnerable position?
Also note that Jane could've been pretty handy with that knife. It could very well be that she made the stomach slash shallow on purpose because she didn't want to kill Kenny just then, but just drive him back. Since Kenny seemed to be pretty fine and dandy in his endings even with his slashed stomach, I don't think the laceration was that deep. (And yes, you can survive shallow lacerations to the abdomen if no organs are puntured, especially if you've got some abdominal fat as it appears Kenny does.)
She said AJ was dead. That´s evidence. She is unharmed. That´s evidence. Kenny simply reached the only reasonable conclusion with all the facts he had.
This is not enough "evidence" to murder somebody. You need something stronger than a "reasonable conclusion" that's really more a huge assumption to commit murder and take someone else's life. Kenny was dead wrong about Jane killing AJ.
You expect him to accept Jane´s offer and leave Clementine with a baby killer?
No. But I was hoping he wouldn't jump to conclusions and outright try to kill Jane instead, and Jane was hoping the same thing. Even if he didn't believe Jane, I'd hoped he'd at least be a little bit reasonable and do anything else except try to kill her. For example he could've tried to at least find out what had happened to AJ, rather than try to commit murder on nothing more than a "reasonable conclusion" as you say. Say Kenny was right in his assumptions and Jane had tried to get rid of AJ. But what if, in this situation, Jane wasn't successful, and AJ could have still been saved? Instead of trying to do something constructive, Kenny jumped to conclusions and tried to kill the last person to know where AJ could've been.
You mean the smash her into the window moment? Okay, then. I still think he was not trying to kill her, that it was more like the response he had with Ben-or the determinant fight with Lee on the train- just pure anger. I realized that I should explain myself better, on this point. When Ben confesses that he is responsible for the death of his family, Kenny is angry and threatens to kill him.
"You little pissant! You're fucking dead, do you hear me?! Dead! My wife and child, you got them both fucking killed! If this asshole thinks he's getting on my boat after what he did, he's out of his motherfucking mind! You hear me shitbird?! You can stay behind and fucking rot!"
Well letting Ben "stay behind and fucking rot" isn't the same as actively killing him. Compare that to:
Clementine: You’re going to kill each other!
Kenny: I’m going to kill HER!
Ehh I think it's pretty clear Kenny wants to kill her here. The wording is much more direct; rather than just leaving someone behind to die, it seems Kenny wants to be the one directly responsible for Jane's death.
Oh and I was mistaken. Kenny indicates five times, not six times, that he would kill Jane. Still quite a lot though:
You’re fuckin’ DEAD!
I’m going to kill HER!
I’ll fuckin’ kill you.
I’ll fuckin’ kill you!
Just…fuckin’…die…
All of these quotes are a lot more direct than, "just stay behind and fucking rot."
Also apparently before (though this part was obviously changed), Kenny was supposed to have smashed Jane's face into the glass, and probably kill her, as indicated by the "Clem....help...." dialogue, which are Jane's last words in the finished game before Kenny stabs her.
Seems like Kenny was supposed to kill her here.
Yeah so this all is prettty close to the Jane vs. Kenny debate (some of the stuff I've written here is copied from my past posts there) so if you want to continue this conversation by posting in that thread, then be my guest. But I won't be responding to you in this thread about it.
I have mean to address this post since I saw this-especially because you compared Lee with Jane, and Kenny with the Governor- but I don´t ha… moreve that much time right now, so I going to go over this section by section. So I am going to start with the part about the figth.
--------> in mind at this point we don’t know if Wellington even exists, let alone where it is.
We know is in Michigan, and we have enough evidence to say there was pretty much no chance Welligton was false.
In Jane’s mind, Kenny was bringing them on a suicidal mission, looking for an unknown location with no food and dwindling fuel for the car. In the truck, they say:
Can´t comment on this. Like you say, is ‘in Jane´s mind’.
Perhaps she didn't want this for Kenny either,
I don´t think so. Remember when she is willing to leave him to die right after the argument in the car? For me, that shows enough about her intentions.
but sh… [view original content]
Yup good point. I added it to the OP. Here are the screenshots, and the dialogue: "You’re the only one that he trusts. That he really trusts. That means you’re the one that’s gonna have to pull him back. He’s counting on you. If we’re really going to make this work, we’re all counting on you."
In addition, she sympathizes with Kenny at the campfire scene:
One more interesting detail you should add..
At the beginning of episode five, Jane was willing to work with Kenny. She counted on Clemen… moretine to talk some sense into him. If someone could find the screenshot, that would be great. I don't know exactly what she said, but I know she quickly changed her mind once she saw what Kenny did to Arvo.
The only thing that makes my ending difficult was letting the family in or not. Black Child, Hispanic Molly, and White Carlos... Hmmm
We know is in Michigan
Nope we don't. They never say anywhere in the game that Wellington is actually in Michigan. Even Kenny the be… morearded god says so:
"Supposed to be a big camp up near Michigan." Even if Wellington does exist, (you're right; it probably does exist since we've heard so much about it, but no one bothered to tell Jane about those times it seems) just knowing that it's "near Michigan" really doesn't pinpoint the location at all, as that could mean it's in multiple states rather than just one state (even though Michigan itself is pretty darn big.) So as the location is so up in the air, it'd be pretty hard to find where it was exactly, and they'd only be able to find Wellington via trial and error, which could take forever, and thus be a very dangerous trip without proper resources. Therefore Jane knew it was a dangerous plan.
Not to mention, just because Wellington exists and Edith seems nice doesn't mean it's … [view original content]
Yeah what could? I agree both were equally wrong and I hate it when people try to turn the situation into a devil vs angel scenario. Hugocorv was right when he said Jane pretty much lure kenny to his death. That's why i didn't address that point in my response. However, the fact that Jane sheath her knife is evidence that violence was expected but not necessarily a part of the plan. Regardless what she did was reckless. The same with Kenny. He should have known better than to allow his emotions get the better of him. I understand he was pissed off and he had ever right to be but that was not the right place and the complete worst time to "handle" that situation.
Yup good point. I added it to the OP. Here are the screenshots, and the dialogue: "You’re the only one that he trusts. That he really trusts… more. That means you’re the one that’s gonna have to pull him back. He’s counting on you. If we’re really going to make this work, we’re all counting on you."
In addition, she sympathizes with Kenny at the campfire scene:
So...I just finished playing the game. I wasn't completely satisfied with my first ending, so I decided to play again.
Here's what I chose for both of my endings:
1st: My first time playing I killed Kenny and ended up leaving Jane.
2nd: I let Jane die and stayed with Kenny (at the very end).
I guess for me, out of the two, I'd rather stick around with Kenny. Sure, he ended up being a loose cannon, and he's got a lot of mental problems. The thing is though, most of the time, he does what he thinks is right for the group. Which, to be fair, is not always the best decision. At least he is looking out for the group as a whole though.
With Jane, she was looking out for number one. True, she wanted to keep Clem safe, but to go to the lengths that she did to do so? And wasn't helping Clem also helping 'redeem' herself in some way? What gets me was it wasn't even out of anger or anything like that, she KNEW that Kenny would do what he did. She pretended to have let a baby die, just to show Clem that Kenny would be furious and attack her. It didn't really prove anything. She knew Kenny thought of that kid as his own at that point, so of course he was going to flip out.
For me, it was a childish decision. She needed so badly to be right, that she was willing to have herself or Clem kill Kenny just so Clem would see.
Now, I don't know what would've happened if the baby wasn't hidden. I don't know if Kenny would've ended up doing a bad thing. I don't think he would've, not to Clem at least.
Now am I saying Kenny was a 'good guy', not exactly. I think he wants to be. But I think the 'good guy' he is trying to be is impossible in the world they exist in, especially after what he had to go through.
I guess in the end for me, I felt worse for killing Kenny than I did for letting Jane die. Maybe it was because Clem didn't kill Jane, but I think in the end, Jane made a bad call. A very manipulative call, that was more or less out to get Kenny killed.
Was Jane a 'bad' person. No. Was Kenny? No.
As Lee said, "It's not like math, there are no right answers." (on a completely different note: I was bawling my eyes out at that scene)
I think I'm going to continue the game with Kenny alive during S3, just because, for all of his anger, I like Kenny. He's just trying to do what is right, and I think that baby is going to give him a good second chance.
Sarah's death wasn't an inevitability. It was a stupid accident that was in no way brought about by her actions. For some reason nobody seems to have realized that, because it's better to think that survival is based off your skills rather than forces outside your control.
Which is why I loved Pete and Carlos' deaths so much. Here are two strong, reliable, competent individuals who die sudden deaths due to momentary slip-ups in an utterly chaotic situation.
Yeah what could? I agree both were equally wrong and I hate it when people try to turn the situation into a devil vs angel scenario. Hugocor… morev was right when he said Jane pretty much lure kenny to his death. That's why i didn't address that point in my response. However, the fact that Jane sheath her knife is evidence that violence was expected but not necessarily a part of the plan. Regardless what she did was reckless. The same with Kenny. He should have known better than to allow his emotions get the better of him. I understand he was pissed off and he had ever right to be but that was not the right place and the complete worst time to "handle" that situation.
Ugh. This fight looks indeed very different from Jane's point of view. I gotta admit, I wish I could have seen all this points before I made my own decision.
We know is in Michigan
Nope we don't. They never say anywhere in the game that Wellington is actually in Michigan. Even Kenny the be… morearded god says so:
"Supposed to be a big camp up near Michigan." Even if Wellington does exist, (you're right; it probably does exist since we've heard so much about it, but no one bothered to tell Jane about those times it seems) just knowing that it's "near Michigan" really doesn't pinpoint the location at all, as that could mean it's in multiple states rather than just one state (even though Michigan itself is pretty darn big.) So as the location is so up in the air, it'd be pretty hard to find where it was exactly, and they'd only be able to find Wellington via trial and error, which could take forever, and thus be a very dangerous trip without proper resources. Therefore Jane knew it was a dangerous plan.
Not to mention, just because Wellington exists and Edith seems nice doesn't mean it's … [view original content]
For some reason nobody seems to have realized that, because it's better to think that survival is based off your skills rather than forces outside your control.
People like to forget about realism. Most are satisfied with the lack of it, if only something keeps going on the way they want it to hapen.
Sarah's death wasn't an inevitability. It was a stupid accident that was in no way brought about by her actions. For some reason nobody se… moreems to have realized that, because it's better to think that survival is based off your skills rather than forces outside your control.
Which is why I loved Pete and Carlos' deaths so much. Here are two strong, reliable, competent individuals who die sudden deaths due to momentary slip-ups in an utterly chaotic situation.
Sorry but at the rate she was going she was going to die no matter what. And that is realism. Realistically speaking in a world like that people for the most part have fend for themselves even if they are in a group. Sarah couldn't. She needed specifically her dad and when he died well you see the results. Now what if the entire group died either in the herd of zombies or sometime later down the road and Sarah was the only only left? Realistically speaking the girl would be doomed. Speaking of the group, Clem and the rest of the grouped tried to keep her alive but that didn't work out because the girl didn't have the will to survive. If she had the will to survive then Clem wouldn't have had to slap her back into reality at the trailer home and sarah would have moved when Jane lifted that beem off her. There's no one else to blame for Sarah's death but her. Think about it, she wasn't helping with shooting the zombies so why was she even out on the balcony? Also she realized it was falling but didn't even attempt to move. She could have prevented her own death even after the balcony had colapsed, realistically speaking.
Sarah's death wasn't an inevitability. It was a stupid accident that was in no way brought about by her actions. For some reason nobody se… moreems to have realized that, because it's better to think that survival is based off your skills rather than forces outside your control.
Which is why I loved Pete and Carlos' deaths so much. Here are two strong, reliable, competent individuals who die sudden deaths due to momentary slip-ups in an utterly chaotic situation.
Well I'm glad you can see it from her point of view. You've always seemed very reasonable to me. Sorry if you're doubting your ending, though. It wasn't my intention to make anyone feel bad about it; I just wanted people to see Jane's POV.
Ugh. This fight looks indeed very different from Jane's point of view. I gotta admit, I wish I could have seen all this points before I made my own decision.
Edit: Whoops, I'm a moron, I can't read, duh. But you do have always right. :>
Thank you, friend, same thing goes for you.
Sorry if you're doubting your ending, though. It wasn't my intention to make anyone feel bad about it; I just wanted people to see Jane's POV.
No, it's okay, I'm actually glad I had the opportunity to see a psychological side of Jane, it helps to understand the meaning of the final fight. Which is good, because Jane seems to be a better person than I thought she was.
Well I'm glad you can see it from her point of view. You've always seemed very reasonable to me. Sorry if you're doubting your ending, though. It wasn't my intention to make anyone feel bad about it; I just wanted people to see Jane's POV.
You've always seemed very reasonable to me.
Edit: Whoops, I'm a moron, I can't read, duh. But you do have always right. :>
Tha… morenk you, friend, same thing goes for you.
Sorry if you're doubting your ending, though. It wasn't my intention to make anyone feel bad about it; I just wanted people to see Jane's POV.
No, it's okay, I'm actually glad I had the opportunity to see a psychological side of Jane, it helps to understand the meaning of the final fight. Which is good, because Jane seems to be a better person than I thought she was.
Yet they'll pull it out as a defense for all the illogical things that appeal to them. Like Kenny and Clem's plot armor, or Christa never being heard from again (according to Playing Dead).
For some reason nobody seems to have realized that, because it's better to think that survival is based off your skills rather than forces o… moreutside your control.
People like to forget about realism. Most are satisfied with the lack of it, if only something keeps going on the way they want it to hapen.
Yet they'll pull it out as a defense for all the illogical things that appeal to them. Like Kenny and Clem's plot armor, or Christa never being heard from again (according to Playing Dead).
Fuck Kenny and Jane. Jane is way too cold and pragmatic for my liking especially due to what she said about Sarah and Kenny is too unstable . Jane seems like the type of person who would leave you if you're not of use to her anymore. Kenny also seems like he would accidently kill Clementine if he was angry enough. Both of them are too unstable to survive with in my opinion.
I'm replaying season 2 again because I had to reinstall it all and I'm on episode 4, still not sure who to choose, Jane or Kenny. They are both flawed. just like everyone else. I play Clementine as I would in real life, so I think Jane 'gives' up easily on people, like she did on Sarah. Not really a fan of that but she still can survive for long time. Kenny is Kenny. In my playthrough in season 1 I couldn't agree on everything he said so there were problems between us and I got annoyed, but he did act nice to my Clem, but still, he's what he always was. Hot headed. Doesn't even damn listen to the others, and that's what it's important in groups. If it was in real life and I had proof Jane hid the baby to prove some point I would kick her out of group. But at that time we didn't know, so I couldn't say she killed him on purpose or left him etc. People change endings mostly 'cause they figured baby was actually alive. In my first playthrough I ended up with Jane and family. There aren't right choices. Killing Kenny is as bad as watching Jane die (at that moment we were informed baby died accidentaly) .
Comments
You can eat the leaves too in salads! I've seen them being sold at a normal grocery story, Shoprite! And you can eat the flowers too. And don't forget about dandelion wine.
Also I haven't forgotten about your comment on Troy; will get back you in a while.
I loved that man sniff
Leaves her in a truck surrounded by walkers --> With a baby in her hands
Leaves baby in a car during a snowstorm --> I believe it was locked with the engine running?
One more interesting detail you should add..
At the beginning of episode five, Jane was willing to work with Kenny. She counted on Clementine to talk some sense into him. If someone could find the screenshot, that would be great. I don't know exactly what she said, but I know she quickly changed her mind once she saw what Kenny did to Arvo.
The only thing that makes my ending difficult was letting the family in or not. Black Child, Hispanic Molly, and White Carlos... Hmmm
After reading you comment here I realized you were right; he had never committed a deed worse than following orders, that we saw. I changed that part of the post about him being "terrible." It wasn't fair of me to judge Troy without thinking of things from his perspective just like it's unfair of people to judge Jane without thinking of things from her perspective. Unfortunately however, I found some more things about him....
Ok really I'm sorry about this since I know you're fond of Troy, but I was digging around and apparently Troy's voice actor, Owen Thomas, made some comments on Troy in the comments section of a youtube video he uploaded; you can see his words here. Troy's VA here is "Owenactor":
In a response to a comment saying, "I wanted to kill you [Troy] after you hit Clem
" his reply was, "Oh he deserved it..." In addition, he says, "There were some scenes he didn't use that made him WAY worse." So unfortunately it looks like Troy's VA even believes that Troy deserved to die. This is Mr. Thomas' opinion. However as the VA, he knows more about Troy's character than we do. Whether he deserved to die in the way he did is another matter however.
Now we should talk about the statement, "Shooting a man in the dick and leaving them to get eaten by zombies is something wrong." Now of course it is; no matter what Troy could've done, two wrongs don't make a right. But we're talking about Jane's opinion here, and it could've been justified to her.
I don't take deleted scenes to be canon; therefore I can't make any conclusions on what Troy actually did, apart from Mr. Thomas saying Troy deserved to die. I'm not going to speculate what Troy could've done even in canon; there are plenty of people who think, "No crime could be bad enough to deserve a man's junk to be shot." Apart from rape, I don't have a good enough imagination to wonder what Troy could've done that's equivalent, and I'm not going to try to imagine them either. But if I never would have imagined the action of shooting a man's dick off, I'm sure there are other actions that Troy could have committed that are just as heinous that I just would not be able to think of (and I'd prefer to not think of.)
Plus, the other group members leaving Carver's never bring up anything about Jane shooting Troy in the balls which is odd; you'd think they might be a bit more appalled at what she'd done, especially since they could've known Troy better than we do.
Also it looks like you ignored my whole second paragraph on Jane in the Troy section (which I'll paste here again since scrolling back up there to find it would be a pain lol): "Also, as I said before, I get the vibe that something happened to Jane where she put emotional walls up to defend herself from being hurt; remember not many are born with such high emotional walls. Possibly before Jane was in some relationship that did go sour. The end resulted in her putting up walls, not allowing anyone in except those she already knew and loved/trusted (e.g. Jaime and later Clem and Luke). From there she could've had casual sex though not many committed relationships, never bringing her walls down completely. I imagine when she shot him, Jane thought of Troy as every asshole she's ever been with. Perhaps she got revenge unjustly on Troy."
I had noted how Jane could've gotten revenge on Troy unfairly, remember?
Yes I did actually; sometimes I do. But thanks for reminding me; I won't anymore. However I have to point out that if he was acting under Carver's orders, using your same argument it could also be argued Troy was acting under orders to save Clem as well. It was Troy's job to oversee these people, and if a girl died on his watch (a girl that Carver seemed to be taking a special interest in) then this would just feed Carver's perception of Troy being incompetent, which wouldn't help Troy.
Or maybe Troy's action here just proves that he couldn't let a little girl die, no matter his exterior or actions we don't know about.
How about we agree on one thing?
Fuck Jane.
And fuck Kenny.
She deliberately left a baby in a car surrounded by walkers to carry out her plan to murder Kenny. Crying draws walkers to you, as Jane would know, as she saw what happened to Sarah. She just didn't care, as she considered the baby a liability from the start.
That itself makes her death justified. There's no need to even point out her leaving a wounded Clementine to defend herself from walkers after promising she'd never do that again, leaving her sister to die, having sex instead of keeping a lookout - which led to Sarah's death, being reckless by robbing and threatening to murder Arvo - which could have gotten every single person in the group killed when the Russians took revenge, planning to murder Kenny by goading him into a fight knowing that he was unarmed and that she had a knife, etc.
If she had to be such a hated character, TellTale could have at least made her interesting like Carley. Instead they wrote up a dull, unrealistic character with no emotions. Unless she was supposed to be a plastic robot, she totally failed as a character, IMO.
"She could have pushed the walker with her legs or grab the knife she had on her belt."
She had a baby in her hands.
"He went to get gas and shit hit the fan."
That's a horrible excuse. He could have easily turned back and ran towards the truck.
That's your opinion. There are some resemblances in their survival tactics and personality.
I agree with Alan on this one. Maybe Jane does see Clem as another Jaime. Maybe taking care of Clem is her way of atoning for what she did to her sister. But even if that's the case so what? I don't see anything wrong with that and I feel that it would make Clem's story even more interesting.
"Crying draws walkers to you"
Not in a snow storm apparently because if that were the case then walkers would have surrounded the car..
" to carry out her plan to murder Kenny"
If she actually wanted to kill Kenny she wouldn't have sheathed her knife nor would she give Kenny the opportunity to pounce on her.
"There's no need to even point out her leaving a wounded Clementine to defend herself from walkers"
Kenny left Clem and the baby. Mybad for pointing that out.
"leaving her sister to die"
Her sister wanted to die. In reality you really can't force someone to survive if they honestly don't want to. No that wasn't a good think but she had no choice and that action is certainly not worse than beating up a crippled kid.
"having sex instead of keeping a lookout"
She's human.
"which led to Sarah's death"
No Sarah just didn't have what it took to survive without her father. Even though I fell bad about the sarah situation as well she was going to die sooner or later.
"planning to murder Kenny by goading him into a fight knowing that he was unarmed and that she had a knife"
That would make sense had she not sheathed her knife before the fight began.
"Not in a snow storm apparently because if that were the case then walkers would have surrounded the car.."
The baby wasn't crying at that point. That's why it wasn't walker food.
"If she actually wanted to kill Kenny she wouldn't have sheathed her knife nor would she give Kenny the opportunity to pounce on her."
Um there is absolutely no doubt that she planned on killing Kenny. She tells Clementine that she knows what his reaction is going to be. She also knows that he's unarmed and that she has a large knife. The fact that Clementine can try to prevent it does not change the fact that she did try to goad him to his death. It's ridiculous to try to deny that.
"Kenny left Clem and the baby. Mybad for pointing that out."
Again, that's pretty ridiculous. He went out alone and unarmed to make sure it was safe for Clem and the baby.
"Her sister wanted to die. In reality you really can't force someone to survive if they honestly don't want to. No that wasn't a good think but she had no choice and that action is certainly not worse than beating up a crippled kid."
Jane has been totally selfish and never been there for anyone but herself. She tried to rob and murder the same crippled kid without provocation, as opposed to hitting the kid after he brought armed men to kill everyone in his group.
"She's human."
She's reckless.
"No Sarah just didn't have what it took to survive without her father. Even though I fell bad about the sarah situation as well she was going to die sooner or later."
Jane's irresponsibility is what caused Sarah's death. There was supposed to be a lookout posted. She was not reliable.
"That would make sense had she not sheathed her knife before the fight began."
The fact that Clementine could try to prevent Jane's plan does not in any way deny that she had planned to murder Kenny.
The baby was crying long enough to attract a walker if the snow storm had no effect on them.
There's absolutely no doubt that she wanted to kill kenny. ok explain. Don't just say that and expect reasonable people to agree with you. What you just gave me is beyond a fail. Lets disect.
"She knows that he's unarmed and that she has a knife."
Ok if she knew Ken was unarmed and wanted to kill him, again, why would she sheath her knife? Wait let me guess, a knife is more deadly with a cover on it. #sarcasm
"She tells Clem she knows what his reaction will be"
Soooooo? What's wrong with being observant?
Kenny went alone to make sure it was safe for Clem and the baby......no seriously? You gotta be kidding me. He went to go find gas. Next thing you hear him shooting at walkers. He should've turned back towards the truck and got Clem and Aj out of there. Kenny ran off saving his own skin.
Kenny didn't just hit Arvo. He beat him down. At least Jane took it easy on Arvo and let him go. Kenny turned that boy into a prisoner.
Yes she's reckless just like any other human.
Had it not have been for Jane Luke and Sarah would not have had a chance to make it out of that trailer. At least she tried to save sarah, who would have died eventually. Jane didnt force Sarah to stand still while the platform was falling. The poor girl caused that to happen to herself. Did you not see how she was standing before the platform fell? Did you not hear her scream daddy help me? She was traumatized. Once again she was going to die eventually because survival was the last thing on her mind.
Clem interrupting has nothing to do with it. If Jane wanted to kill Kenny she would not have given the opportunity to attack.
Forum needs a chat to voice mechanic! Gah!
Lol I'll say.
pffff
Yeah it could, but why the long story kenny and jane were both over de edge on being wrong with their actions
Nope we don't. They never say anywhere in the game that Wellington is actually in Michigan. Even Kenny the bearded god says so:
"Supposed to be a big camp up near Michigan." Even if Wellington does exist, (you're right; it probably does exist since we've heard so much about it, but no one bothered to tell Jane about those times it seems) just knowing that it's "near Michigan" really doesn't pinpoint the location at all, as that could mean it's in multiple states rather than just one state (even though Michigan itself is pretty darn big.) So as the location is so up in the air, it'd be pretty hard to find where it was exactly, and they'd only be able to find Wellington via trial and error, which could take forever, and thus be a very dangerous trip without proper resources. Therefore Jane knew it was a dangerous plan.
Not to mention, just because Wellington exists and Edith seems nice doesn't mean it's a safe haven full of other people as nice as Edith. For all we know it could be a Terminus-like place that's worse than it seems (personally I doubt that, though I have hindsight while Jane didn't). But it's still a possibility. (Really hoping they show us more of Wellington in Season 3.)
I'm not blaming Jane for this; I'm blaming the writers. Survivor-Jane had already been stabbed once by Kenny as I've indicated before with these pics and was on the verge of death, and it would've made more sense for her to confess before being ultimately stabbed to death. Additionally why would Jane just die when her goal was to keep Clem away from Kenny in the first place, but Jane dying would just accomplish Clem staying with Kenny?
If Jane had confessed about AJ like it would've made sense for her survivor character to, there would've been no big final choice at the end of this game. Kenny wasn't going to stop if Jane had admitted AJ was alive. Kenny says, "Just imagining what she did to Alvie…everything just went black. By the time I got my head straight…it was too late."
If Kenny hadn't stopped trying to kill Jane after that confession, it's my opinion that near everyone would've realized Kenny was killing Jane for no good reason (if they believed Jane), and would've tried to stop Kenny (actually I might post a poll in the Jane/Kenny thread about that later). Hence the bad writing on Jane. Edit: Here's that poll.
But let me repeat that: if Jane's character had been written properly, there wouldn't have been a big, season-finale decision for the players to make. But Telltale couldn't have that. So they wrote Jane wrong.
Honestly I think if they'd had Jane confess, that would've been better story-telling wise, as it brings the final decision down to a more-emphasized trust issue, which the whole season was supposed to be themed around: Do you trust Jane is telling the truth about AJ, or do you trust Kenny is doing the right thing by killing Jane, even after she says the baby is okay? I'd like to know--what would you have honestly done if that had played out, AlanSpencer?
Jane didn't know he'd kill her from the start, which is what I said multiple times. Let me break down why Jane didn't know Kenny would kill her from the beginning:
Jane: Just go.
Kenny: I ain’t goin' nowhere.
Jane: Fine. [Jane charges Kenny with the knife.])
Jane gave Kenny a chance to go peacefully. From the above dialogue, Jane would kill him if and only if he didn't leave. So, Jane wasn't sure if he would leave or not.
If Jane wasn't sure if he would leave or not as indicated just above, how could she possibly be sure Kenny would stay for certain and kill her? Therefore, Jane didn't know that Kenny would kill her from the start.
Let's look at the silent playthrough:
[Jane and Kenny are struggling on the ground. Clem has the option to pull Jane off of Kenny. If Clem doesn’t, Kenny pushes Jane off of him eventually, knocking her back to the ground. He gets up and advances on her.]
K: You’re fuckin’ DEAD!
J: Fuck you! [Jane slices Kenny’s stomach.]
C: Oh my god… [Kenny retreats outside]
K: Grr!
J: THIS IS ALL YOUR FUCKIN’ FAULT! [Jane pursues Kenny through the door]
Note that this dialogue takes place for everyone if you wait long enough before choosing a dialogue option; therefore this dialogue is not determinant. Like I said before, I don't think it's Jane's intention to kill Kenny here just yet. You argue that Jane clearly wants to kill Kenny since she slashed his stomach. Yes, she does this after he declares, "You're fuckin' DEAD!" a clear death threat if I ever saw one. This statement is the first time in the fight that either Kenny or Jane declares a death threat or an intention to kill the other. (You said, "I don´t see how the [Kenny making a death threat] 'six times' part is in anyway relevant to this discussion...." Death threats and the number of death threats are important because they help us understand why the characters may act/respond the way they do, as well as the characters' emotions [Just how angry is Kenny? Probably more likely to actually kill someone the more times he makes a death threat.]) After he advances on her, she slashes his stomach, probably out of instinct or just to drive him back. Wouldn't you do the same if someone had just verbally threatened to kill you and was advancing on you while you were on the floor in a vulnerable position?
Also note that Jane could've been pretty handy with that knife. It could very well be that she made the stomach slash shallow on purpose because she didn't want to kill Kenny just then, but just drive him back. Since Kenny seemed to be pretty fine and dandy in his endings even with his slashed stomach, I don't think the laceration was that deep. (And yes, you can survive shallow lacerations to the abdomen if no organs are puntured, especially if you've got some abdominal fat as it appears Kenny does.)
This is not enough "evidence" to murder somebody. You need something stronger than a "reasonable conclusion" that's really more a huge assumption to commit murder and take someone else's life. Kenny was dead wrong about Jane killing AJ.
No. But I was hoping he wouldn't jump to conclusions and outright try to kill Jane instead, and Jane was hoping the same thing. Even if he didn't believe Jane, I'd hoped he'd at least be a little bit reasonable and do anything else except try to kill her. For example he could've tried to at least find out what had happened to AJ, rather than try to commit murder on nothing more than a "reasonable conclusion" as you say. Say Kenny was right in his assumptions and Jane had tried to get rid of AJ. But what if, in this situation, Jane wasn't successful, and AJ could have still been saved? Instead of trying to do something constructive, Kenny jumped to conclusions and tried to kill the last person to know where AJ could've been.
Well letting Ben "stay behind and fucking rot" isn't the same as actively killing him. Compare that to:
Clementine: You’re going to kill each other!
Kenny: I’m going to kill HER!
Ehh I think it's pretty clear Kenny wants to kill her here. The wording is much more direct; rather than just leaving someone behind to die, it seems Kenny wants to be the one directly responsible for Jane's death.
Oh and I was mistaken. Kenny indicates five times, not six times, that he would kill Jane. Still quite a lot though:
All of these quotes are a lot more direct than, "just stay behind and fucking rot."
Also apparently before (though this part was obviously changed), Kenny was supposed to have smashed Jane's face into the glass, and probably kill her, as indicated by the "Clem....help...." dialogue, which are Jane's last words in the finished game before Kenny stabs her.
Seems like Kenny was supposed to kill her here.
Yeah so this all is prettty close to the Jane vs. Kenny debate (some of the stuff I've written here is copied from my past posts there) so if you want to continue this conversation by posting in that thread, then be my guest. But I won't be responding to you in this thread about it.
Yup good point. I added it to the OP. Here are the screenshots, and the dialogue: "You’re the only one that he trusts. That he really trusts. That means you’re the one that’s gonna have to pull him back. He’s counting on you. If we’re really going to make this work, we’re all counting on you."
In addition, she sympathizes with Kenny at the campfire scene:
K
Yeah what could? I agree both were equally wrong and I hate it when people try to turn the situation into a devil vs angel scenario. Hugocorv was right when he said Jane pretty much lure kenny to his death. That's why i didn't address that point in my response. However, the fact that Jane sheath her knife is evidence that violence was expected but not necessarily a part of the plan. Regardless what she did was reckless. The same with Kenny. He should have known better than to allow his emotions get the better of him. I understand he was pissed off and he had ever right to be but that was not the right place and the complete worst time to "handle" that situation.
Yay!
So...I just finished playing the game. I wasn't completely satisfied with my first ending, so I decided to play again.
Here's what I chose for both of my endings:
1st: My first time playing I killed Kenny and ended up leaving Jane.
2nd: I let Jane die and stayed with Kenny (at the very end).
I guess for me, out of the two, I'd rather stick around with Kenny. Sure, he ended up being a loose cannon, and he's got a lot of mental problems. The thing is though, most of the time, he does what he thinks is right for the group. Which, to be fair, is not always the best decision. At least he is looking out for the group as a whole though.
With Jane, she was looking out for number one. True, she wanted to keep Clem safe, but to go to the lengths that she did to do so? And wasn't helping Clem also helping 'redeem' herself in some way? What gets me was it wasn't even out of anger or anything like that, she KNEW that Kenny would do what he did. She pretended to have let a baby die, just to show Clem that Kenny would be furious and attack her. It didn't really prove anything. She knew Kenny thought of that kid as his own at that point, so of course he was going to flip out.
For me, it was a childish decision. She needed so badly to be right, that she was willing to have herself or Clem kill Kenny just so Clem would see.
Now, I don't know what would've happened if the baby wasn't hidden. I don't know if Kenny would've ended up doing a bad thing. I don't think he would've, not to Clem at least.
Now am I saying Kenny was a 'good guy', not exactly. I think he wants to be. But I think the 'good guy' he is trying to be is impossible in the world they exist in, especially after what he had to go through.
I guess in the end for me, I felt worse for killing Kenny than I did for letting Jane die. Maybe it was because Clem didn't kill Jane, but I think in the end, Jane made a bad call. A very manipulative call, that was more or less out to get Kenny killed.
Was Jane a 'bad' person. No. Was Kenny? No.
As Lee said, "It's not like math, there are no right answers." (on a completely different note: I was bawling my eyes out at that scene)
I think I'm going to continue the game with Kenny alive during S3, just because, for all of his anger, I like Kenny. He's just trying to do what is right, and I think that baby is going to give him a good second chance.
I don't care, I'm still never going be with Jane. I just took her advice.
Sarah's death wasn't an inevitability. It was a stupid accident that was in no way brought about by her actions. For some reason nobody seems to have realized that, because it's better to think that survival is based off your skills rather than forces outside your control.
Which is why I loved Pete and Carlos' deaths so much. Here are two strong, reliable, competent individuals who die sudden deaths due to momentary slip-ups in an utterly chaotic situation.
Ugh. This fight looks indeed very different from Jane's point of view. I gotta admit, I wish I could have seen all this points before I made my own decision.
People like to forget about realism. Most are satisfied with the lack of it, if only something keeps going on the way they want it to hapen.
For anyone following, this conversation is continued here: http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/comment/1656955/#Comment_1656955
Sorry but at the rate she was going she was going to die no matter what. And that is realism. Realistically speaking in a world like that people for the most part have fend for themselves even if they are in a group. Sarah couldn't. She needed specifically her dad and when he died well you see the results. Now what if the entire group died either in the herd of zombies or sometime later down the road and Sarah was the only only left? Realistically speaking the girl would be doomed. Speaking of the group, Clem and the rest of the grouped tried to keep her alive but that didn't work out because the girl didn't have the will to survive. If she had the will to survive then Clem wouldn't have had to slap her back into reality at the trailer home and sarah would have moved when Jane lifted that beem off her. There's no one else to blame for Sarah's death but her. Think about it, she wasn't helping with shooting the zombies so why was she even out on the balcony? Also she realized it was falling but didn't even attempt to move. She could have prevented her own death even after the balcony had colapsed, realistically speaking.
Well I'm glad you can see it from her point of view. You've always seemed very reasonable to me. Sorry if you're doubting your ending, though.
It wasn't my intention to make anyone feel bad about it; I just wanted people to see Jane's POV.
Edit: Whoops, I'm a moron, I can't read, duh. But you do have always right. :>
Thank you, friend, same thing goes for you.
No, it's okay, I'm actually glad I had the opportunity to see a psychological side of Jane, it helps to understand the meaning of the final fight. Which is good, because Jane seems to be a better person than I thought she was.
Aw thanks.
And great! Glad to hear it.
Edit: Oh uh thanks still lol. And I'm not always right haha.
Yet they'll pull it out as a defense for all the illogical things that appeal to them. Like Kenny and Clem's plot armor, or Christa never being heard from again (according to Playing Dead).
Desperate people do desperate things.
You're a legend, thank you
Fuck Kenny and Jane. Jane is way too cold and pragmatic for my liking especially due to what she said about Sarah and Kenny is too unstable . Jane seems like the type of person who would leave you if you're not of use to her anymore. Kenny also seems like he would accidently kill Clementine if he was angry enough. Both of them are too unstable to survive with in my opinion.
Aw thank you! Lol nice avatar too.
I'm replaying season 2 again because I had to reinstall it all and I'm on episode 4, still not sure who to choose, Jane or Kenny. They are both flawed. just like everyone else. I play Clementine as I would in real life, so I think Jane 'gives' up easily on people, like she did on Sarah. Not really a fan of that but she still can survive for long time. Kenny is Kenny. In my playthrough in season 1 I couldn't agree on everything he said so there were problems between us and I got annoyed, but he did act nice to my Clem, but still, he's what he always was. Hot headed. Doesn't even damn listen to the others, and that's what it's important in groups. If it was in real life and I had proof Jane hid the baby to prove some point I would kick her out of group. But at that time we didn't know, so I couldn't say she killed him on purpose or left him etc. People change endings mostly 'cause they figured baby was actually alive. In my first playthrough I ended up with Jane and family. There aren't right choices. Killing Kenny is as bad as watching Jane die (at that moment we were informed baby died accidentaly) .