Oh so she doesn't gruesomely assassinate people, she gruesomely murders people. I find her killing Troy to be one of the most founded killings. Not only was he a terrible person, but killing this person gave the people leaving more time to escape. Everyone who did make it out very well may owe their lives to Jane and, against his will, Troy.
Shooting a guy's dick off and purposely leaving him as bait for dozens of walkers is brutal and heartless. He actually suffered more than Carver, who was dead by the second time he got piped.
Kenny is not responsible for Jane's murder, she is.
Say what you will about Jane, but any person who lunges at someone on the ground and then jabs a knife into the other person's chest while the other person struggles to hold them back is guilty of murder. Period.
You can't justify making someone suffer. Slowly. Face it, your Queen made a mistake. A mistake that made her look like a bonified barbarian.… more So much for wanting revenge on scumbags. Kenny's "murder" of Larry is up for debate. Do I have any proof that he was dead? No. Do you have any proof he wasn't? No. Kenny is not responsible for Jane's murder, she is. She never should have provoked a crazy man like that. She's got no one to blame but her own agendas and self-centered attitude.
Actually, if you played the game you'd realize that Kenny's obsession was AJ, not Clem. At least he didn't try to isolate him so he could take him all for himself.
I'm stubborn and have quite a temper, but would do anything to protect my people. (Have done so already.) I'm also emotinally driven and make questionable decisions with the idea that I'm making the right call. The way Kenny thought throughout the entire game was pretty much what I wanted to say as well, so that hit me. Additionally, I'm known for taking my frustrations out on people when I can't handle it. I've never been a huge gamer either, so it was my first time actuslly getting attached to a character and feeling so cinematically identified.
I'd say I'm more like Season One Kenny, the only thing that we differ on is that I'm more of a lone wolf, while Ken likes to have his people around for emotional comfort and that kinda stuff. People who know me and also play the game say the level of stubbornness we share is incredible.
That's the best answer I can give you. I thought it all in a moment since I've never really had a discussion about this.
Why is Kenny your favorite character? If you don't mind me asking.
I never really see a straight answer out of anybody, and I'm just curios of why. I'm not trying to start anything, I just would like to know, if you don't mind.
Kenny is not responsible for Jane's murder, she is.
Say what you will about Jane, but any person who lunges at someone on the ground… more and then jabs a knife into the other person's chest while the other person struggles to hold them back is guilty of murder. Period.
Of course. Who would be stupid enough to deny something as obvious?
"Kenny is not responsible for Jane's murder" seems like a pretty direct denial that Kenny is guilty of murdering Jane. But I guess you must have just misspoke.
Also, if they're going to list Jane as indirectly causing her own death, shouldn't it also list Kenny as indirectly causing his death? I mean, Clem only shoots him because he tries to (or succeeds in) killing Jane.
Of course. Who would be stupid enough to deny something as obvious? We're being technical here. Jane is partly responsible for her own death… more.
I know the wiki sucks, but they're right on this one.
Jane.
Killed by:
Kenny.
Herself. (Indirectly caused)
Nothing else needs to be said about this.
Kenny is not responsible. Kenny was the one who "Pulled the trigger", so to say, but Jane is the one at fault for her own demise.
Also, if they're going to list Jane as indirectly causing her own death, shouldn't it also list Kenny as indirectly causing his death? I mean, Clem only shoots him because he tries to (or succeeds in) killing Jane.
And why did he do that? He didn't just randomly go into rage mode and decide to murder everything that moves. He fell victim to Jane's trap and constant provocations. Her lies and sinister plans led to him completely losing it at the end, which it's why it's listed as it follows.
Of course. Who would be stupid enough to deny something as obvious?
"Kenny is not responsible for Jane's murder" seems like a pretty… more direct denial that Kenny is guilty of murdering Jane. But I guess you must have just misspoke.
Also, if they're going to list Jane as indirectly causing her own death, shouldn't it also list Kenny as indirectly causing his death? I mean, Clem only shoots him because he tries to (or succeeds in) killing Jane.
You're being quite contradictory here. You think it's stupid to deny that Kenny is guilty of murder, yet still believe he isn't responsible for Jane's death. That just doesn't make any sense. If I tell you to shoot someone and you do so, so long as I'm not forcing you to do it, you're still responsible for that person's death, even if I'm the ultimate cause of your action.
And why did she lie and create that ruse? Because she saw that Kenny was becoming unstable and wanted to convince Clementine to leave him. She wouldn't have pulled her stunt if Kenny had actually listened to other people instead of stubbornly doing whatever the hell he wanted while going off on anyone who opposes him.
Kenny is not responsible. Kenny was the one who "Pulled the trigger", so to say, but Jane is the one at fault for her own demise.
Also… more, if they're going to list Jane as indirectly causing her own death, shouldn't it also list Kenny as indirectly causing his death? I mean, Clem only shoots him because he tries to (or succeeds in) killing Jane.
And why did he do that? He didn't just randomly go into rage mode and decide to murder everything that moves. He fell victim to Jane's trap and constant provocations. Her lies and sinister plans led to him completely losing it at the end, which it's why it's listed as it follows.
Kenny:
Killed by:
Clementine. (Determinant)
Jane. (Indirectly caused) (Determinant)
I find it to be cruel, unnecessary, vile, and lowering youself to Troy's level. Then again, what's the point of discussing morals? There's no right or wrong most of the time.
Eh, you do realize that the time she "bought" the group was pretty much in return for the one she had wasted getting into Troy's head, right? She had a chance to shoot him, but she kept wasting time because she was aiming for the dick. I don't really think he had a huge of a problem with people escaping. He was considering going with them before Jane mutilated him.
Oh so she doesn't gruesomely assassinate people, she gruesomely murders people. I find her killing Troy to be one of the most founded killin… moregs. Not only was he a terrible person, but killing this person gave the people leaving more time to escape. Everyone who did make it out very well may owe their lives to Jane and, against his will, Troy.
You're grasping at straws here. You clearly understand what I mean, yet you're purposely acting like I've somehow become a maniac that keeps contradicting himself. Let's see if this works better for you. Did Kenny kill Jane? He sure did, but Jane herself played a bigger role in her own death due to the fact that she engineered that entire situation and got herself into a struggle with a mentally unstable man. The fact that Kenny pulled the knife is probably, and ironically, the least important detail here.
And that gave her the right to play around with the man's head? The decision was Clementine's to make, not Jane's. Kenny got the truck working by himself, so he made the rules. Bonnie and Mike got the hint which is why they booked it. What's wrong with going wherever you want to with your car? He wasn't pointing a gun at anyone and ordering them to stay.
You're being quite contradictory here. You think it's stupid to deny that Kenny is guilty of murder, yet still believe he isn't responsible … morefor Jane's death. That just doesn't make any sense. If I tell you to shoot someone and you do so, so long as I'm not forcing you to do it, you're still responsible for that person's death, even if I'm the ultimate cause of your action.
And why did she lie and create that ruse? Because she saw that Kenny was becoming unstable and wanted to convince Clementine to leave him. She wouldn't have pulled her stunt if Kenny had actually listened to other people instead of stubbornly doing whatever the hell he wanted while going off on anyone who opposes him.
Cruel? Sure. Unnecessary? Highly debatable. It may have saved the lives of all the people we cared about trying to escape. It may have kept Clementine from an early grave. Lowering yourself to Troy's level? Not really. He was a person who was detrimental to your groups welfare. To him you were a group of slaves he could do with as he pleased (within the confines of Carver's set rules). It's like saying a slave mortally stabbed a slave owner in the stomach, thereby drawing the attention of the guards so the slave and his loved ones could escape.
Right and wrong is highly elusive
It was what... a few seconds she delayed talking to him? Hardly a large amount of time, even under those pressured measurements. You seem to be caught up on this "shot in the dick" thing. Would it have subverted your distaste if she had shot him, say, in the gut? From how it was subtly portrayed Troy had prior interactions with a less-than-completely-willing Jane. I find a shot to the area for which his damning actions protrude from (pun intended) as a completely understandable punishment. The following screaming and subsequent death a deserved ending. To set fire to the forest while you stand in it will have repercussions. I believe Smokey would have something to say like "Only Troy could have prevented that forest fire."
I guess my point of view is simple. If you do bad things to me or the people I love then be prepared for the shit storm that follows if I am allowed the opportunity.
I find it to be cruel, unnecessary, vile, and lowering youself to Troy's level. Then again, what's the point of discussing morals? There's n… moreo right or wrong most of the time.
Eh, you do realize that the time she "bought" the group was pretty much in return for the one she had wasted getting into Troy's head, right? She had a chance to shoot him, but she kept wasting time because she was aiming for the dick. I don't really think he had a huge of a problem with people escaping. He was considering going with them before Jane mutilated him.
Killing him was necessary. Killing him that way wasn't. Why, though? Aren't you just judging him based on past actions? By that point, Troy had already lowered his gun. Who's discussing that killing him was unnecessary, anyway? I'm arguing that making him suffer was. How did leaving him to be devoured help other than Jane's thirst for blood and revenge? Troy survived all but a few seconds and only grabbed a few walkers' attention out of dozens.
The place where he was shot doesn't matter a whole lot. It's what that shot caused afterwards that represents a problem for me. Shooting him in the crotch meant leaving him as bait, which no matter how much anyone tries to justify it with Troy being a scumbag, is not necessary. They weren't trying to escape from three walkers, we're talking about a massive horde. The only purpose of Troy's death was to satisfy Jane. It didn't benefit the group in any way. Shooting him in the head or anywhere else wouldn't have been of lesser help.
Cruel? Sure. Unnecessary? Highly debatable. It may have saved the lives of all the people we cared about trying to escape. It may have kept … moreClementine from an early grave. Lowering yourself to Troy's level? Not really. He was a person who was detrimental to your groups welfare. To him you were a group of slaves he could do with as he pleased (within the confines of Carver's set rules). It's like saying a slave mortally stabbed a slave owner in the stomach, thereby drawing the attention of the guards so the slave and his loved ones could escape.
Right and wrong is highly elusive
It was what... a few seconds she delayed talking to him? Hardly a large amount of time, even under those pressured measurements. You seem to be caught up on this "shot in the dick" thing. Would it have subverted your distaste if she had shot him, say, in the gut? From how it was subtly portrayed Troy had prior interactions with a less-than-completely-willing Jan… [view original content]
Yeah, I agree. I don't truly have a huge problem with it. Who the fuck I'm I to tell Jane what to do? I was just reminding Mr. Selective Mem… moreory up there that Kenny is not the only murderer around here.
Based on that, and how smart Jane was back then before becoming obsessed with Clementine, it's safe to assume that they had a "Sex for safety and getting out of the pen" deal. It's what makes the most sense to me, at least.
Oh, nice that you're back. No hard feelings over last time, I hope.
I'm sorry if I came of as purposefully misconstruing your words but the fact that I said that Kenny was "guilty of murder," and your response to that was "of course" does directly contradict your statement that he wasn't responsible for Jane's death. That's just how words work. Being "guilty of murder" means being responsible for someone's death.
No, Kenny behaving erratically didn't give Jane the right to pull her ruse, but Jane pulling her ruse also didn't give Kenny the right to kill her. He killed her because he assumed she had intentionally killed AJ when he hadn't even seen a body or hadn't heard anything about what actually happened. It was an purposeful act of taking a life based on a judgment of the other person. That's murder (or manslaughter).
You're grasping at straws here. You clearly understand what I mean, yet you're purposely acting like I've somehow become a maniac that keeps… more contradicting himself. Let's see if this works better for you. Did Kenny kill Jane? He sure did, but Jane herself played a bigger role in her own death due to the fact that she engineered that entire situation and got herself into a struggle with a mentally unstable man. The fact that Kenny pulled the knife is probably, and ironically, the least important detail here.
And that gave her the right to play around with the man's head? The decision was Clementine's to make, not Jane's. Kenny got the truck working by himself, so he made the rules. Bonnie and Mike got the hint which is why they booked it. What's wrong with going wherever you want to with your car? He wasn't pointing a gun at anyone and ordering them to stay.
Contradict in what way, written? I guess it can come off that way. Logically? No. What I was trying to say was more than clear. Kenny killed Jane, so he will always be seen as responsible in one way or another. Isn't that common sense? The point being made here is that any responsiblity Kenny has over this is overshadowed by Jane's. Had Kenny just killed her for no reason, he'd be the undisputed responsible for said murder, but Jane did all the work here other than stabbing herself.
They both made a mistake, but it all comes back running in circles. Would Kenny have tried to kill her if she hadn't lied? She caused the mess. Kenny did nothing but make it messier once it was impossible to clean it up.
I'm sorry if I came of as purposefully misconstruing your words but the fact that I said that Kenny was "guilty of murder," and your respons… moree to that was "of course" does directly contradict your statement that he wasn't responsible for Jane's death. That's just how words work. Being "guilty of murder" means being responsible for someone's death.
No, Kenny behaving erratically didn't give Jane the right to pull her ruse, but Jane pulling her ruse also didn't give Kenny the right to kill her. He killed her because he assumed she had intentionally killed AJ when he hadn't even seen a body or hadn't heard anything about what actually happened. It was an purposeful act of taking a life based on a judgment of the other person. That's murder (or manslaughter).
Again, that's debatable. Am I judging him on past actions? Of course. I wouldn't give a convicted robber the keys to my house while I was on vacation. I wouldn't let a child abuser drive my child to school. Also, as stated earlier, he attracted the walkers. All of them? No. The one that may have bit Clem's throat? Well.......
Just clearing that up. You kept mentioning him being shot in the dick, even bolding it at one point. Again, it being necessary is debatable. Which even if it weren't I find Jane shooting him and leaving him to be devoured a completely real thing to do. We, while sitting behind a computer, can act like robots. But he shoves his D somewhere it doesn't belong I guarantee you will feel more than you think. It was to satisfy Jane, and I don't condemn her for doing it. It did benefit the group, and I don't condemn her for doing it. Yes it would have. Those zombies gobbling up his innards may have turned around and bit the group members I actually cared about. (As much as S2 could let me care about a character.)
Killing him was necessary. Killing him that way wasn't. Why, though? Aren't you just judging him based on past actions? By that point, Troy … morehad already lowered his gun. Who's discussing that killing him was unnecessary, anyway? I'm arguing that making him suffer was. How did leaving him to be devoured help other than Jane's thirst for blood and revenge? Troy survived all but a few seconds and only grabbed a few walkers' attention out of dozens.
The place where he was shot doesn't matter a whole lot. It's what that shot caused afterwards that represents a problem for me. Shooting him in the crotch meant leaving him as bait, which no matter how much anyone tries to justify it with Troy being a scumbag, is not necessary. They weren't trying to escape from three walkers, we're talking about a massive horde. The only purpose of Troy's death was to satisfy Jane. It didn't benefit the group in any way. Shooting him in the head or anywhere else wouldn't have been of lesser help.
They were all covered in walker guts and Troy was the only one yelling at that moment. With that being said, he was the only one at risk of getting eaten. Did you forget the scene where the walkers pass right through Nick, Rebecca, and Mike...? Come on, you know they weren't gonna bite anybody unless they started making loud noises. That's just a far-fetched assumption supported by nothing in the game.
I keep mentioning it because it's what Jane did, isn't it? What would be be the point of me saying she ripped Troy's head off? Honestly, I still can't see how it benefited the group other than distracting five walkers.
Carlos still died.
Sarah still runs away.
Sarita still gets bit. (Which causes Kenny to break down and motion the chain of events that happen later.)
Nothing benefitial about it other than knowing there's one less scumbag you have to be worried about. Bravo!
Again, that's debatable. Am I judging him on past actions? Of course. I wouldn't give a convicted robber the keys to my house while I was on… more vacation. I wouldn't let a child abuser drive my child to school. Also, as stated earlier, he attracted the walkers. All of them? No. The one that may have bit Clem's throat? Well.......
Just clearing that up. You kept mentioning him being shot in the dick, even bolding it at one point. Again, it being necessary is debatable. Which even if it weren't I find Jane shooting him and leaving him to be devoured a completely real thing to do. We, while sitting behind a computer, can act like robots. But he shoves his D somewhere it doesn't belong I guarantee you will feel more than you think. It was to satisfy Jane, and I don't condemn her for doing it. It did benefit the group, and I don't condemn her for doing it. Yes it would have. Those zombies gobbling up his innards may have turned around and bit the … [view original content]
Well, see, all I have access to is what you've written so if what you've written is contradictory, then, as far as I'm aware, your logic is contradictory. I was under the impression that the statement "Kenny is not responsible" actually meant to convey that "Kenny is not responsible," whereas you seem to have intended to say something more along the lines of "Kenny is less responsible than Jane." In the future, it would be a good idea to make sure that the words you're communicating align with the meaning you intend for them to have, rather than leaving it up to the other person to just assume that you mean something you're not saying.
He didn't kill her for no reason, but he killed her for an inadequate reason. And that's still murder. What she claims to have done wasn't worthy of death and his assumption of what she had done was unfounded. Again, Kenny merely assumed that Jane had actually killed AJ because he didn't trust her, just as he assumed that Arvo was lying about the supplies because he didn't trust Arvo. And instead of taking a step back and evaluating the situation, he just acts, pushing Arvo around and berating him and attacking and killing Jane.
Would Kenny have tried to kill her if she hadn't lied?
This is appealing to causality, which is not the same as culpability. Back to my example, if I tell you to kill someone and you do so, you'd still bear the majority of the responsibility for their murder even if my order was the reason you killed them. The reason for this is because my actions don't justify yours. Now, if I had held a gun to your head and told you to kill the other person, then you wouldn't bear responsibility for the other person's death because my action justifies yours. So bringing it back to the case at hand, unless you want to claim that Jane's actions somehow justified Kenny murdering her, he still has the lion's share of the responsibility for her death.
Contradict in what way, written? I guess it can come off that way. Logically? No. What I was trying to say was more than clear. Kenny killed… more Jane, so he will always be seen as responsible in one way or another. Isn't that common sense? The point being made here is that any responsiblity Kenny has over this is overshadowed by Jane's. Had Kenny just killed her for no reason, he'd be the undisputed responsible for said murder, but Jane did all the work here other than stabbing herself.
They both made a mistake, but it all comes back running in circles. Would Kenny have tried to kill her if she hadn't lied? She caused the mess. Kenny did nothing but make it messier once it was impossible to clean it up.
It's not really needed. I highly doubt anyone would seriously think that a poster would just openly contradict himself like that. That's just...let's just say it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
What she did wasn't worthy of death if it could have been avoided. Would I have murdered Jane for that? No. But Kenny, despite all his mistakes, wasn't at fault for this. Therefore, he deserved to die even less. As far as I saw it, if someone had to go it should be the one who caused the fight.
That's literally what Jane did, though. She repeatedly kept hitting Kenny where it hurts him the most. Mocks his dead family and tricks him into thinking his las tie in this world had just died. Jane provoked Kenny, got herself into a fight with him, escalated it by taking out her knife and slashing him first, etc. Like I said above, she literally did all the work. The idea that Kenny is the ultimate responsible indicates that you're not really thinking outside the box here. Ignoring all past Jane actions the lead to her own death just because Kenny was the one stabbing her is a questionable move. It's not even old-fashioned.
Well, see, all I have access to is what you've written so if what you've written is contradictory, then, as far as I'm aware, your logic is … morecontradictory. I was under the impression that the statement "Kenny is not responsible" actually meant to convey that "Kenny is not responsible," whereas you seem to have intended to say something more along the lines of "Kenny is less responsible than Jane." In the future, it would be a good idea to make sure that the words you're communicating align with the meaning you intend for them to have, rather than leaving it up to the other person to just assume that you mean something you're not saying.
He didn't kill her for no reason, but he killed her for an inadequate reason. And that's still murder. What she claims to have done wasn't worthy of death and his assumption of what she had done was unfounded. Again, Kenny merely assumed that Jane had actually killed AJ because he didn't trust her, just as h… [view original content]
Well to be honest, Kenny shot Carver's kneecaps and he was lying on the ground for over a minute before Kenny bashed his face in and Clem could have shot Carver also (determinant). That shit is pretty painful. There isnt really a way to measure (pain x time = total suffering) to see who felt more pain so how should we determine who suffered more?
Shooting him in the balls to make him suffer and then using him as bait was completely unnecessary. It was a sadistic move on Jane's part ju… morest like Kenny going to town on Carver's face was a colossal waste of time. He didn't even suffer that much. Pardon me for having my morals in the right place and calling people out for doing unwarranted diabolical deeds, Kingston.
As far as I saw it, if someone had to go it should be the one who caused the fight.
That's just the thing. Someone didn't have to go. But Kenny believed that Jane needed to die and acted upon that belief. I blame Jane for the fight, but I blame Kenny for the murder. Because, again, one does not necessitate the other.
It was hardly one-sided in terms of hitting where it hurt. They both said incredibly cruel things to each other, but I think Kenny started that off. If there's one thing to know about Jane, it's that she's an incredibly lonely person. And telling an incredibly lonely person that they're nothing and that no one cares for them is just as much a low blow as what she said to him. Not to mention that he harped on her for "running off," apparently forgetting that she came back and saved his life.
Looking back at the beginning of the fight, Jane put her knife away and told him not to approach her. He's the one who charged at her and tried to choke her against the wall. She only took out her knife and slashed at him when he charges at her yet again. So, no, I wouldn't say she did all the work at all. She pissed him off, sure. But he was the initial aggressor of the fight and he's the one who pinned the other person to the ground and drive a knife into their chest.
It's not really needed. I highly doubt anyone would seriously think that a poster would just openly contradict himself like that. That's jus… moret...let's just say it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
What she did wasn't worthy of death if it could have been avoided. Would I have murdered Jane for that? No. But Kenny, despite all his mistakes, wasn't at fault for this. Therefore, he deserved to die even less. As far as I saw it, if someone had to go it should be the one who caused the fight.
That's literally what Jane did, though. She repeatedly kept hitting Kenny where it hurts him the most. Mocks his dead family and tricks him into thinking his las tie in this world had just died. Jane provoked Kenny, got herself into a fight with him, escalated it by taking out her knife and slashing him first, etc. Like I said above, she literally did all the work. The idea that Kenny is the ultimate responsible indicates that you're not really thinking… [view original content]
Well to be honest, Kenny shot Carver's kneecaps and he was lying on the ground for over a minute before Kenny bashed his face in and Clem co… moreuld have shot Carver also (determinant). That shit is pretty painful. There isnt really a way to measure (pain x time = total suffering) to see who felt more pain so how should we determine who suffered more?
Both kneecaps being shot most likely hurt more than getting your dick shot off and its matter of what who suffered more, not where you would rather take a bullet.
Both kneecaps being shot most likely hurt more than getting your dick shot off and its matter of what who suffered more, not where you would rather take a bullet.
The game did force the idea that one had to die, though. Who did it have to be? The woman who caused it all in the first place or the man who didn't even know what was happening?
Telling someone that they're lonely is hardly on the same level as mocking dead people. It's not up for debate. It sure was low on Kenny's part, but it can't be compared to what Jane said to him. Now if Kenny had mentioned Jamie this would be a serious conversation.
But Kenny was disarmed. She took the knife out once she realized she had no chancd of winning thag fight with her fists. Punching each other a few times looks like child's play once a knife is involved. She escalated it even though she may have not been the first one to attack. No one would have ford of it wasn'f for her knife.
As far as I saw it, if someone had to go it should be the one who caused the fight.
That's just the thing. Someone didn't have to go… more. But Kenny believed that Jane needed to die and acted upon that belief. I blame Jane for the fight, but I blame Kenny for the murder. Because, again, one does not necessitate the other.
It was hardly one-sided in terms of hitting where it hurt. They both said incredibly cruel things to each other, but I think Kenny started that off. If there's one thing to know about Jane, it's that she's an incredibly lonely person. And telling an incredibly lonely person that they're nothing and that no one cares for them is just as much a low blow as what she said to him. Not to mention that he harped on her for "running off," apparently forgetting that she came back and saved his life.
Looking back at the beginning of the fight, Jane put her knife away and told him not to approach her. He's the one who charged … [view original content]
It's common sense. Troy was shot in a man's soft spot and then was left as bait for god know how many walkers. Which shot hurts more is up for debate, but the fact that getting deavoured slowly while being unable to move is worse than what happened to Carver (He was almost unconscious after the first time Kenny hit him and quickly died after the second one) isn't. Carver's mutilation sure was more brutal, but more painful? Highly debatable.
Well to be honest, Kenny shot Carver's kneecaps and he was lying on the ground for over a minute before Kenny bashed his face in and Clem co… moreuld have shot Carver also (determinant). That shit is pretty painful. There isnt really a way to measure (pain x time = total suffering) to see who felt more pain so how should we determine who suffered more?
I don't think so and i'd rather have something that can heal...
And do you think it came clean off? I'd be surprised so it will hurt like hell at least
You just completely ignored the fact that Carver is lying on the ground after his both kneecaps were shot off for over 2 minutes, before Kenny started beating him to death.
If walkers bites your neck open or any important vein, you bleed to death in matter of seconds.
It's common sense. Troy was shot in a man's soft spot and then was left as bait for god know how many walkers. Which shot hurts more is up f… moreor debate, but the fact that getting deavoured slowly while being unable to move is worse than what happened to Carver (He was almost unconscious after the first time Kenny hit him and quickly died after the second one) isn't. Carver's mutilation sure was more brutal, but more painful? Highly debatable.
...Ignored? Wasn't Troy laying on the ground bleeding to death and calling for help as well? I don't know what that has to do with anything.
Troy was yelling for quite a few seconds. You could hear the walkers munching on him and he was like "ARRRGGHHHHHH!". There's not much to debate here until you provide concrete examples on how Carver's death was worse. I already gave you mine.
You just completely ignored the fact that Carver is lying on the ground after his both kneecaps were shot off for over 2 minutes, before Ken… moreny started beating him to death.
If walkers bites your neck open or any important vein, you bleed to death in matter of seconds.
I've changed that about the knees even before you responded so why even go there??? Oh wait avatar name....
Carver was out cold after the first hit , the dickguy saw walkers approaching and knew his time had come and i would say he was scared as hell while Carver was out, and looking at how Carver is he would have been in a they want to kill me situation more then once
In the end Carver was out cold while travis was completely awake so yes travis's death was more gruwesome for the person that was dying , and don't go "is doesn't have to be" because i'd take a crowbar to the head anyday than beeing shot in the d*ck and eaten alive.
You say he died pretty fast, but thats just your opinion
I don't think so and it was one shot so one knee
It was both kneecaps. You should pay more attention while playing the game.
A… morend do you think it came clean off? I'd be surprised so it will hurt like hell at least
He died pretty fast after the walkers started eating him.
...Ignored? Wasn't Troy laying on the ground bleeding to death and calling for help as well? I don't know what that has to do with anything.… more
Troy was yelling for quite a few seconds. You could hear the walkers munching on him and he was like "ARRRGGHHHHHH!". There's not much to debate here until you provide concrete examples on how Carver's death was worse. I already gave you mine.
Yes he always does that
I wouldn´t want any of the deaths they had but beeing knocked out cold like Carver is experiencewise the better way for the victim
It was a sadistic move on Jane's part just like Kenny going to town on Carver's face was a colossal waste of time. He didn't even suffer that much.
This is your message which i replied orginally. You claimed Carver didnt even suffer much, even thought he was laying on the ground for over 2 minutes after his kneecaps were shot off. Are you saying that isnt suffering?
...Ignored? Wasn't Troy laying on the ground bleeding to death and calling for help as well? I don't know what that has to do with anything.… more
Troy was yelling for quite a few seconds. You could hear the walkers munching on him and he was like "ARRRGGHHHHHH!". There's not much to debate here until you provide concrete examples on how Carver's death was worse. I already gave you mine.
I've changed that about the knees even before you responded so why even go there??? Oh wait avatar name....
Just to show how ignorant you are about what happens in the game.
In the end Carver was out cold while travis was completely awake so yes travis's death was more gruwesome for the person that was dying , and don't go "is doesn't have to be" because i'd take a crowbar to the head anyday than beeing shot in the d*ck and eaten alive.
Your failure to read what i type still amezes me. Travis was either eaten alive or shot and died later at the motel. Why are you even talking about him? Carver's kneecaps were shot off and had to suffer for over 2 minutes before Kenny even hits him with the crowbar. How is that not painful?
You say he died pretty fast, but thats just your opinion
I dont really give a shit what you consider fast or slow.
I've changed that about the knees even before you responded so why even go there??? Oh wait avatar name....
Carver was out cold after the… more first hit , the dickguy saw walkers approaching and knew his time had come and i would say he was scared as hell while Carver was out, and looking at how Carver is he would have been in a they want to kill me situation more then once
In the end Carver was out cold while travis was completely awake so yes travis's death was more gruwesome for the person that was dying , and don't go "is doesn't have to be" because i'd take a crowbar to the head anyday than beeing shot in the d*ck and eaten alive.
You say he died pretty fast, but thats just your opinion
He obviously suffered, but at that point I was making a comparison between his death and Troy's. From a comparative perspective, Carver's death was a walk in the park compared to what Troy had to endure.
Just five minutes ago you were arguing that Carver's beatdown was as painful or even relatively close. Why did you change the subject, sir?
It was a sadistic move on Jane's part just like Kenny going to town on Carver's face was a colossal waste of time. He didn't even suffer tha… moret much.
This is your message which i replied orginally. You claimed Carver didnt even suffer much, even thought he was laying on the ground for over 2 minutes after his kneecaps were shot off. Are you saying that isnt suffering?
Saltlick, you seem to have lousy reading comprehension skills. Please spend some time reading and understanding what i said, before replying back and saying pointless shit.
He didn't even suffer that much.
He obviously suffered, but at that point I was making a comparison between his death and Troy's. From a … morecomparative perspective, Carver's death was a walk in the park compared to what Troy had to endure.
Just five minutes ago you were arguing that Carver's beatdown was as painful or even relatively close. Why did you change the subject, sir?
Ironically enough, all the only pointless shit I've read so far happens to be under your name. How is it my fault that you can't put your ideas into a well-built sentence? Your "example" was laughable, to say the least.
Saltlick, you seem to have lousy reading comprehension skills. Please spend some time reading and understanding what i said, before replying back and saying pointless shit.
Comments
Oh so she doesn't gruesomely assassinate people, she gruesomely murders people. I find her killing Troy to be one of the most founded killings. Not only was he a terrible person, but killing this person gave the people leaving more time to escape. Everyone who did make it out very well may owe their lives to Jane and, against his will, Troy.
Say what you will about Jane, but any person who lunges at someone on the ground and then jabs a knife into the other person's chest while the other person struggles to hold them back is guilty of murder. Period.
For me? That I'm so much like him.
I'm stubborn and have quite a temper, but would do anything to protect my people. (Have done so already.) I'm also emotinally driven and make questionable decisions with the idea that I'm making the right call. The way Kenny thought throughout the entire game was pretty much what I wanted to say as well, so that hit me. Additionally, I'm known for taking my frustrations out on people when I can't handle it. I've never been a huge gamer either, so it was my first time actuslly getting attached to a character and feeling so cinematically identified.
I'd say I'm more like Season One Kenny, the only thing that we differ on is that I'm more of a lone wolf, while Ken likes to have his people around for emotional comfort and that kinda stuff. People who know me and also play the game say the level of stubbornness we share is incredible.
That's the best answer I can give you. I thought it all in a moment since I've never really had a discussion about this.
Of course. Who would be stupid enough to deny something as obvious? We're being technical here. Jane is partly responsible for her own death.
I know the wiki sucks, but they're right on this one.
Jane.
Killed by:
Kenny.
Herself. (Indirectly caused)
Nothing else needs to be said about this.
"Kenny is not responsible for Jane's murder" seems like a pretty direct denial that Kenny is guilty of murdering Jane. But I guess you must have just misspoke.
Also, if they're going to list Jane as indirectly causing her own death, shouldn't it also list Kenny as indirectly causing his death? I mean, Clem only shoots him because he tries to (or succeeds in) killing Jane.
Kenny is not responsible. Kenny was the one who "Pulled the trigger", so to say, but Jane is the one at fault for her own demise.
And why did he do that? He didn't just randomly go into rage mode and decide to murder everything that moves. He fell victim to Jane's trap and constant provocations. Her lies and sinister plans led to him completely losing it at the end, which it's why it's listed as it follows.
Kenny:
Killed by:
Clementine. (Determinant)
Jane. (Indirectly caused) (Determinant)
You're being quite contradictory here. You think it's stupid to deny that Kenny is guilty of murder, yet still believe he isn't responsible for Jane's death. That just doesn't make any sense. If I tell you to shoot someone and you do so, so long as I'm not forcing you to do it, you're still responsible for that person's death, even if I'm the ultimate cause of your action.
And why did she lie and create that ruse? Because she saw that Kenny was becoming unstable and wanted to convince Clementine to leave him. She wouldn't have pulled her stunt if Kenny had actually listened to other people instead of stubbornly doing whatever the hell he wanted while going off on anyone who opposes him.
I find it to be cruel, unnecessary, vile, and lowering youself to Troy's level. Then again, what's the point of discussing morals? There's no right or wrong most of the time.
Eh, you do realize that the time she "bought" the group was pretty much in return for the one she had wasted getting into Troy's head, right? She had a chance to shoot him, but she kept wasting time because she was aiming for the dick. I don't really think he had a huge of a problem with people escaping. He was considering going with them before Jane mutilated him.
You're grasping at straws here. You clearly understand what I mean, yet you're purposely acting like I've somehow become a maniac that keeps contradicting himself. Let's see if this works better for you. Did Kenny kill Jane? He sure did, but Jane herself played a bigger role in her own death due to the fact that she engineered that entire situation and got herself into a struggle with a mentally unstable man. The fact that Kenny pulled the knife is probably, and ironically, the least important detail here.
And that gave her the right to play around with the man's head? The decision was Clementine's to make, not Jane's. Kenny got the truck working by himself, so he made the rules. Bonnie and Mike got the hint which is why they booked it. What's wrong with going wherever you want to with your car? He wasn't pointing a gun at anyone and ordering them to stay.
Cruel? Sure. Unnecessary? Highly debatable. It may have saved the lives of all the people we cared about trying to escape. It may have kept Clementine from an early grave. Lowering yourself to Troy's level? Not really. He was a person who was detrimental to your groups welfare. To him you were a group of slaves he could do with as he pleased (within the confines of Carver's set rules). It's like saying a slave mortally stabbed a slave owner in the stomach, thereby drawing the attention of the guards so the slave and his loved ones could escape.
Right and wrong is highly elusive
It was what... a few seconds she delayed talking to him? Hardly a large amount of time, even under those pressured measurements. You seem to be caught up on this "shot in the dick" thing. Would it have subverted your distaste if she had shot him, say, in the gut? From how it was subtly portrayed Troy had prior interactions with a less-than-completely-willing Jane. I find a shot to the area for which his damning actions protrude from (pun intended) as a completely understandable punishment. The following screaming and subsequent death a deserved ending. To set fire to the forest while you stand in it will have repercussions. I believe Smokey would have something to say like "Only Troy could have prevented that forest fire."
I guess my point of view is simple. If you do bad things to me or the people I love then be prepared for the shit storm that follows if I am allowed the opportunity.
Killing him was necessary. Killing him that way wasn't. Why, though? Aren't you just judging him based on past actions? By that point, Troy had already lowered his gun. Who's discussing that killing him was unnecessary, anyway? I'm arguing that making him suffer was. How did leaving him to be devoured help other than Jane's thirst for blood and revenge? Troy survived all but a few seconds and only grabbed a few walkers' attention out of dozens.
The place where he was shot doesn't matter a whole lot. It's what that shot caused afterwards that represents a problem for me. Shooting him in the crotch meant leaving him as bait, which no matter how much anyone tries to justify it with Troy being a scumbag, is not necessary. They weren't trying to escape from three walkers, we're talking about a massive horde. The only purpose of Troy's death was to satisfy Jane. It didn't benefit the group in any way. Shooting him in the head or anywhere else wouldn't have been of lesser help.
No, no. Not at all, and thank you.
I'm sorry if I came of as purposefully misconstruing your words but the fact that I said that Kenny was "guilty of murder," and your response to that was "of course" does directly contradict your statement that he wasn't responsible for Jane's death. That's just how words work. Being "guilty of murder" means being responsible for someone's death.
No, Kenny behaving erratically didn't give Jane the right to pull her ruse, but Jane pulling her ruse also didn't give Kenny the right to kill her. He killed her because he assumed she had intentionally killed AJ when he hadn't even seen a body or hadn't heard anything about what actually happened. It was an purposeful act of taking a life based on a judgment of the other person. That's murder (or manslaughter).
Contradict in what way, written? I guess it can come off that way. Logically? No. What I was trying to say was more than clear. Kenny killed Jane, so he will always be seen as responsible in one way or another. Isn't that common sense? The point being made here is that any responsiblity Kenny has over this is overshadowed by Jane's. Had Kenny just killed her for no reason, he'd be the undisputed responsible for said murder, but Jane did all the work here other than stabbing herself.
They both made a mistake, but it all comes back running in circles. Would Kenny have tried to kill her if she hadn't lied? She caused the mess. Kenny did nothing but make it messier once it was impossible to clean it up.
Again, that's debatable. Am I judging him on past actions? Of course. I wouldn't give a convicted robber the keys to my house while I was on vacation. I wouldn't let a child abuser drive my child to school. Also, as stated earlier, he attracted the walkers. All of them? No. The one that may have bit Clem's throat? Well.......
Just clearing that up. You kept mentioning him being shot in the dick, even bolding it at one point. Again, it being necessary is debatable. Which even if it weren't I find Jane shooting him and leaving him to be devoured a completely real thing to do. We, while sitting behind a computer, can act like robots. But he shoves his D somewhere it doesn't belong I guarantee you will feel more than you think. It was to satisfy Jane, and I don't condemn her for doing it. It did benefit the group, and I don't condemn her for doing it. Yes it would have. Those zombies gobbling up his innards may have turned around and bit the group members I actually cared about. (As much as S2 could let me care about a character.)
They were all covered in walker guts and Troy was the only one yelling at that moment. With that being said, he was the only one at risk of getting eaten. Did you forget the scene where the walkers pass right through Nick, Rebecca, and Mike...? Come on, you know they weren't gonna bite anybody unless they started making loud noises. That's just a far-fetched assumption supported by nothing in the game.
I keep mentioning it because it's what Jane did, isn't it? What would be be the point of me saying she ripped Troy's head off? Honestly, I still can't see how it benefited the group other than distracting five walkers.
Carlos still died.
Sarah still runs away.
Sarita still gets bit. (Which causes Kenny to break down and motion the chain of events that happen later.)
Nothing benefitial about it other than knowing there's one less scumbag you have to be worried about. Bravo!
Well, see, all I have access to is what you've written so if what you've written is contradictory, then, as far as I'm aware, your logic is contradictory. I was under the impression that the statement "Kenny is not responsible" actually meant to convey that "Kenny is not responsible," whereas you seem to have intended to say something more along the lines of "Kenny is less responsible than Jane." In the future, it would be a good idea to make sure that the words you're communicating align with the meaning you intend for them to have, rather than leaving it up to the other person to just assume that you mean something you're not saying.
He didn't kill her for no reason, but he killed her for an inadequate reason. And that's still murder. What she claims to have done wasn't worthy of death and his assumption of what she had done was unfounded. Again, Kenny merely assumed that Jane had actually killed AJ because he didn't trust her, just as he assumed that Arvo was lying about the supplies because he didn't trust Arvo. And instead of taking a step back and evaluating the situation, he just acts, pushing Arvo around and berating him and attacking and killing Jane.
This is appealing to causality, which is not the same as culpability. Back to my example, if I tell you to kill someone and you do so, you'd still bear the majority of the responsibility for their murder even if my order was the reason you killed them. The reason for this is because my actions don't justify yours. Now, if I had held a gun to your head and told you to kill the other person, then you wouldn't bear responsibility for the other person's death because my action justifies yours. So bringing it back to the case at hand, unless you want to claim that Jane's actions somehow justified Kenny murdering her, he still has the lion's share of the responsibility for her death.
It's not really needed. I highly doubt anyone would seriously think that a poster would just openly contradict himself like that. That's just...let's just say it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
What she did wasn't worthy of death if it could have been avoided. Would I have murdered Jane for that? No. But Kenny, despite all his mistakes, wasn't at fault for this. Therefore, he deserved to die even less. As far as I saw it, if someone had to go it should be the one who caused the fight.
That's literally what Jane did, though. She repeatedly kept hitting Kenny where it hurts him the most. Mocks his dead family and tricks him into thinking his las tie in this world had just died. Jane provoked Kenny, got herself into a fight with him, escalated it by taking out her knife and slashing him first, etc. Like I said above, she literally did all the work. The idea that Kenny is the ultimate responsible indicates that you're not really thinking outside the box here. Ignoring all past Jane actions the lead to her own death just because Kenny was the one stabbing her is a questionable move. It's not even old-fashioned.
Well to be honest, Kenny shot Carver's kneecaps and he was lying on the ground for over a minute before Kenny bashed his face in and Clem could have shot Carver also (determinant). That shit is pretty painful. There isnt really a way to measure (pain x time = total suffering) to see who felt more pain so how should we determine who suffered more?
That's just the thing. Someone didn't have to go. But Kenny believed that Jane needed to die and acted upon that belief. I blame Jane for the fight, but I blame Kenny for the murder. Because, again, one does not necessitate the other.
It was hardly one-sided in terms of hitting where it hurt. They both said incredibly cruel things to each other, but I think Kenny started that off. If there's one thing to know about Jane, it's that she's an incredibly lonely person. And telling an incredibly lonely person that they're nothing and that no one cares for them is just as much a low blow as what she said to him. Not to mention that he harped on her for "running off," apparently forgetting that she came back and saved his life.
Looking back at the beginning of the fight, Jane put her knife away and told him not to approach her. He's the one who charged at her and tried to choke her against the wall. She only took out her knife and slashed at him when he charges at her yet again. So, no, I wouldn't say she did all the work at all. She pissed him off, sure. But he was the initial aggressor of the fight and he's the one who pinned the other person to the ground and drive a knife into their chest.
I'd rather have one in the kneecap than my dick shot off thank you very much...
Both kneecaps being shot most likely hurt more than getting your dick shot off and its matter of what who suffered more, not where you would rather take a bullet.
I don't think so and i'd rather have something that can heal...
And do you think it came clean off? I'd be surprised so it will hurt like hell at least
The game did force the idea that one had to die, though. Who did it have to be? The woman who caused it all in the first place or the man who didn't even know what was happening?
Telling someone that they're lonely is hardly on the same level as mocking dead people. It's not up for debate. It sure was low on Kenny's part, but it can't be compared to what Jane said to him. Now if Kenny had mentioned Jamie this would be a serious conversation.
But Kenny was disarmed. She took the knife out once she realized she had no chancd of winning thag fight with her fists. Punching each other a few times looks like child's play once a knife is involved. She escalated it even though she may have not been the first one to attack. No one would have ford of it wasn'f for her knife.
It's common sense. Troy was shot in a man's soft spot and then was left as bait for god know how many walkers. Which shot hurts more is up for debate, but the fact that getting deavoured slowly while being unable to move is worse than what happened to Carver (He was almost unconscious after the first time Kenny hit him and quickly died after the second one) isn't. Carver's mutilation sure was more brutal, but more painful? Highly debatable.
It was both kneecaps. You should pay more attention while playing the game.
He died pretty fast after the walkers started eating him.
You just completely ignored the fact that Carver is lying on the ground after his both kneecaps were shot off for over 2 minutes, before Kenny started beating him to death.
If walkers bites your neck open or any important vein, you bleed to death in matter of seconds.
...Ignored? Wasn't Troy laying on the ground bleeding to death and calling for help as well? I don't know what that has to do with anything.
Troy was yelling for quite a few seconds. You could hear the walkers munching on him and he was like "ARRRGGHHHHHH!". There's not much to debate here until you provide concrete examples on how Carver's death was worse. I already gave you mine.
I've changed that about the knees even before you responded so why even go there??? Oh wait avatar name....
Carver was out cold after the first hit , the dickguy saw walkers approaching and knew his time had come and i would say he was scared as hell while Carver was out, and looking at how Carver is he would have been in a they want to kill me situation more then once
In the end Carver was out cold while travis was completely awake so yes travis's death was more gruwesome for the person that was dying , and don't go "is doesn't have to be" because i'd take a crowbar to the head anyday than beeing shot in the d*ck and eaten alive.
You say he died pretty fast, but thats just your opinion
Yes he always does that
I wouldn´t want any of the deaths they had but beeing knocked out cold like Carver is experiencewise the better way for the victim
She´s cute but also an autistic psycho
Yeah, it shouldn't even be up for debate.
People automatically assume that just because it was more brutal it also has to to be the most painful. Smh.
Who the hell talked about fucking her? O_o He/She just asked if Jane was beautiful or not.
This is your message which i replied orginally. You claimed Carver didnt even suffer much, even thought he was laying on the ground for over 2 minutes after his kneecaps were shot off. Are you saying that isnt suffering?
Just to show how ignorant you are about what happens in the game.
Your failure to read what i type still amezes me. Travis was either eaten alive or shot and died later at the motel. Why are you even talking about him? Carver's kneecaps were shot off and had to suffer for over 2 minutes before Kenny even hits him with the crowbar. How is that not painful?
I dont really give a shit what you consider fast or slow.
He didn't even suffer that much.
He obviously suffered, but at that point I was making a comparison between his death and Troy's. From a comparative perspective, Carver's death was a walk in the park compared to what Troy had to endure.
Just five minutes ago you were arguing that Carver's beatdown was as painful or even relatively close. Why did you change the subject, sir?
Saltlick, you seem to have lousy reading comprehension skills. Please spend some time reading and understanding what i said, before replying back and saying pointless shit.
I have never argued that the beating was the painful part of Carver's death, this is just a false assumption about what i think made by you .
Ironically enough, all the only pointless shit I've read so far happens to be under your name. How is it my fault that you can't put your ideas into a well-built sentence? Your "example" was laughable, to say the least.