Speaking of the E3-demo, one game I was reminded of (next to CMI, which I think is the Monkey Island it looks like the most - in the demo part at least) was Zelda: Wind Waker. The second island you visit in that one (Windfall Island? I can't remember, it's been too long) really came to mind upon seeing Flotsam Island. I don't know why, I guess it's the sunny, tropical Island-harbor setting, the cartoony atmosphere and the design (big, brightly colored surfaces, stuff like that). Was Wind Waker an influence here, or am I just rambling?
Who isn't influenced by that game? I guess maybe sub consciously I was.
I was reading the other day about how in the early days of Sierra On-Line, Roberta Williams would personally give people hints when they called the office number. That made me wonder if any of the developers that went back and played the original games, which another post mentioned a lot of people were doing, got stuck on a puzzle and had to ask someone that worked on that game for a solution?
Hi guys!
I know this is a little bit early...actually, too damn early to say, but I'm gonna risk asking you this anyway:
-When will we see Season 3 of Sam n Max?
also
-If the first season of ToMI sells enough copies (episodes), will you make a second season? Or it is just a stand-alone non-futuristic project?
One more thing, and I know that everybody asked you this... The buttons/badges, how can we get those in our posession without going all "I'm a pirate, I've come to plunder, give me buttons!" on your headquarters?
Hi guys!
I know this is a little bit early...actually, too damn early to say, but I'm gonna risk asking you this anyway:
-When will we see Season 3 of Sam n Max?
also
-If the first season of ToMI sells enough copies (episodes), will you make a second season? Or it is just a stand-alone non-futuristic project?
One more thing, and I know that everybody asked you this... The buttons/badges, how can we get those in our posession without going all "I'm a pirate, I've come to plunder, give me buttons!" on your headquarters?
I was reading the other day about how in the early days of Sierra On-Line, Roberta Williams would personally give people hints when they called the office number. That made me wonder if any of the developers that went back and played the original games, which another post mentioned a lot of people were doing, got stuck on a puzzle and had to ask someone that worked on that game for a solution?
That reminds me of an interview she gave... when talking about the much harder puzzles in games back then, she mentioned they expected video gamers to be more educated back then as computers were very expensive
That reminds me of an interview she gave... when talking about the much harder puzzles in games back then, she mentioned they expected video gamers to be more educated back then as computers were very expensive
Wow, that's lack of self insight! Roberta Williams wrote some of the most illogical, unfair and downright bad puzzles in the history of adventure gaming. Education will not help you solve those puzzles. It was a test of patience more than anything.
This is really amazing. And actually, i DO want some of them semi-illogical puzzles involved in ToMI. Come ON, anything to make the episode last longer than a measly 2-8 hours!
Well.
Except maybe a 6 hour Stan sales pitch. That might be pushing it.
No, but seriously. the puzzles in the new S&M, SB and W&G series are just downright wussy compared to the old MI puzzles. We were bred on stronger grog than this and I for one can't stomach the watered-down version.
Like come on, it was the PAIN of going through the oop chee ack that made it so maddeningly memorable. Loved it.
IMO, hints to the game only breed the generation of lazy whiners we see growing up around us.
There's no use in puzzles being hard if you cannot solve it by logic. The fun of puzzle solving lies in actually solving puzzles yourself, not by desperately clicking and combining everything until you stumble on some illogical solution cooked up by the game designer to artificially increase the length of the game.
There's no use in puzzles being hard if you cannot solve it by logic. The fun of puzzle solving lies in actually solving puzzles yourself, not by desperately clicking and combining everything until you stumble on some illogical solution cooked up by the game designer to artificially increase the length of the game.
Though finding jokes by combining the wrong things together, I find, has always been a brilliant thing in Monkey Island
But agreed, the fun is in knowing you have solved a puzzle, rather than tried everything.
I hope that it will provide with at least 8-10 hours of gameplay (not knowing the puzzles) and 1-2 hours using a walkthrough.
Ummm, here's another question: Would you accept help from your fans while working on a Monkey Island title? I mean, it would be exciting to find an unnoficial way of collaborating with you. Maybe gather a small group of people (such as us), and ask them to fill out forms with questions like
"Who would you like to see most in the next Monkey Island game, besides the main characters? a) Stan b) Murray c) Herman"
or
"What location would you like to see once more in the next MI title? a) Melee Island b) Blood Island c) Phatt Island"
Maybe I'm just rambling here, but I think most of us would like to help a bit at creating a MI title. Right guys?
There's no use in puzzles being hard if you cannot solve it by logic. The fun of puzzle solving lies in actually solving puzzles yourself, not by desperately clicking and combining everything until you stumble on some illogical solution cooked up by the game designer to artificially increase the length of the game.
Although a lot puzzles have logical solutions, many many more require lateral thinking. Thats the secret of a good puzzle IMO.
Use key to open door is logical.
Use monkey as wrench to to turn off a waterfall is lateral thinking. (OK, extreme example)
No questions (yet!), I just wanted to join the fawning over Telltale for bringing Monkey Island back to our monitors after all this time.
Because of this (and SMI:SE) I've started playing through the series again - it's been a few of years since I did a complete play through all the games. It's surprising how much I don't remember!
Although a lot puzzles have logical solutions, many many more require lateral thinking. Thats the secret of a good puzzle IMO.
Use key to open door is logical.
Use monkey as wrench to to turn off a waterfall is lateral thinking. (OK, extreme example)
I was talking about logical as opposed to illogical, not as opposed to lateral. In Ron Gilbert's words:
Puzzles and their solutions need to make sense. They don't have to be obvious, just make sense. The best reaction after solving a tough puzzle should be, "Of course, why didn't I think of that sooner!" The worst, and most often heard after being told the solution is, "I never would have gotten that!" If the solution can only be reached by trial and error or plain luck, it's a bad puzzle.
Use monkey as wrench to to turn off a waterfall is lateral thinking. (OK, extreme example)
That puzzle might be a bad example. If you're not American, the term monkey wrench probably won't pop into your mind during that puzzle, even if you know that it's called that in America.
I wouldn't even have made the connection if it hadn't been mentioned in the E3 demo. I think it was the E3 demo?
I get the whole need for a logical solution to the puzzles of course, but we never really had that issue with MI puzzles did we? Even IF i did, out of eventual desperation, solved a number of puzzles by randomly chucking stuff together, we could always perceive on hindsight some slender warped logic involved. And that was generally sufficient for me. It just meant I needed to be more warped and tenuous in my logic for the next killer puzzle. (See, more important life skills learnt already!)
But I totally dig what serweet said about the wrong answers. The new series all give one standard dialogue for "I can't use such and such with such and such". How boring can that get?
That puzzle might be a bad example. If you're not American, the term monkey wrench probably won't pop into your mind during that puzzle, even if you know that it's called that in America.
I wouldn't even have made the connection if it hadn't been mentioned in the E3 demo. I think it was the E3 demo?
Well that puzzle is renowned for being the most 'lateral' in the games, and it was a killer puzzle. I'm not from the US though and still got there in the end. Once hypnotised however, the monkey was shaped like a wrench (spanner).
I think it took me so long to solve though that I probably would use a walkthough / hint system if they did something similar in Tales.
The Internet was the biggest thing that killed adventure games for a while IMO.
The Monkey Island logo changed a little bit. Now it looks more like a vectorial illustration
Since both LucasArts and Telltale use the new logo, I'm curious to know who created the new Monkey Island logo?
Hey, just dropped in to say that this private forum as preorder perk is a brilliant idea!
Actually, I do have a question. It was already said that Ron Gilbert was involved in the design. How does his involvement compare to Aardman's on Wallace & Gromit? Less, similar, more? Thanks!
Actually, I do have a question. It was already said that Ron Gilbert was involved in the design. How does his involvement compare to Aardman's on Wallace & Gromit? Less, similar, more? Thanks!
I think this is a magnificent question and I, too would seek an answer to such an inquiry.
Education will not help you solve those puzzles. It was a test of patience more than anything.
I think that's kind of the thing though. In that era, to actually set up a DOS computer and load up a game on it required a huge degree of patience and often trial-and-error.
The Monkey Island logo changed a little bit. Now it looks more like a vectorial illustration
Since both LucasArts and Telltale use the new logo, I'm curious to know who created the new Monkey Island logo?
LucasArts created the new "Monkey Island" text for their special edition, and asked that we adopt that text for our logo as well. I did the "Tales of" banner and text, expecting it to not be final and just for E3, but I guess it is, or is damn close Tried to get a little of the LeChuck's Revenge logo feeling in there.
Looks pretty cool. Somehow the color and style remind me the old logo of The Scummbar made by Bill Tiller a few(?) years ago.
Personally I would have preferred the banner and text aligned in the center, but I guess you wanted to do something different
Anyway, good job!
Bearded Guybrush, Zombie LeChuck... LeChuck's Revenge really is the team's favourite episode? Or at least the main influence for ToMI?
Well, zombies are just cool! But, the pox is different than zombies.. you'll see it affects people differently than just zombababifying them, more like a jaundice with one helluva fever. You'll also notice, Mr. Lechuck isn't decaying, he is actually quite pristine! Although, he probably stinks to high heavens.
Well, zombies are just cool! But, the pox is different than zombies.. you'll see it affects people differently than just zombababifying them, more like a jaundice with one helluva fever. You'll also notice, Mr. Lechuck isn't decaying, he is actually quite pristine! Although, he probably stinks to high heavens.
Perhaps...perhaps...*deep booming echoing voice* WITH THE VOODOO POX HE FEEDS ON THEIR VERY SOULS....*wide eye'd expression*
Rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle? Red Herrings? Gopher repellant?
On a serious note though, what about English subtitles? As I'm hearing impaired, it seriously affects my enjoyment of a game if it's speech only (and makes it unplayable for the Deaf!) Please tell me there will be a text option (which includes intro's, cut-scenes, etc...)
This is the most sequential, interconnected story Telltale's ever told. Mike and Mark have a glorious plan for the arc of the entire season and we hope to be revealing as many questions as we do answers to the series' questions every month. I get psyched just thinking about it.
Telltale, I could kiss you. I'm glad I ended up buying SBCG4AP twice, knowing that it helped to fund your continued awesomeness.
Oh no! *Covers his ears* Lalalalalalala! (I'm trying to avoid spoilers here!)
(Yes, I know, spending all my days in these forums isn't the best way to do that... But how else could I bear the agony of waiting till July?)
Anyway, thanks for the answer, Ry! I really admire the work you're doing with TMI (or ToMI... I keep changing this helluvanacronym): all characters look great so far (no-one's commented on Voodo Lady's new make-up, very haunting), and I also love the few setting sketches we've seen.
While I'm okay with ToMI being harder than S&M, I do have to say that it should not be as hard as, say, MI2. The puzzles should be similar in style, but not unfair or illogical. I think even Ron Gilbert has pointed out this problem at some point...
In general, it's like puzzles were made to defeat the player and satisfy the designer, rather than to make the player feel satisfied when they finally work it out. They tend to be based on the developer's logic, so that you could only follow their line of thinking from the method to the solution if you had made the game. This wouldn't be so bad if you already knew where point B was, and merely had to find the path from A to B, but sometimes you aren't even sure what you're trying to do or what your starting point is. There are too many gaps in the player's knowledge for clever thinking to be enough. When you have no idea if you're even on the right track, and the game gives you no indication, you can spend an hour doing the wrong thing, or you can spend an hour ALMOST doing the right thing, then give up and try a completely different (wrong) track. It stops being fun and off to the Internet for spoilers we go. I even noticed this more recently, when I played the almighty Grim Fandango. You're trying to work out both what your goal is, and a way of getting there. You have no pieces of the puzzle to start filling it in, and often a massive inventory with a billion time-wasting combinations to work with (this is why I want a MI2 remake) - but you don't even know if you have the item you need or if you're accomplishing nothing.
It wasn't until Telltale showed up with Sam & Max that Adventure games really became what they should be (although I loved the original S&M as well). You were far more likely to have a point B - or more often, C - to aim for, or a point A to start from, and it was possible to work it out with your OWN logic, not by reading the developer's mind. (Again, MI2 tended to make it worse because you had access to so many different places that you had no idea where you could currently make progress or if you were wasting time, or if you needed an item from a completely different place to progress in this one.) That's what makes a puzzle really fun. Maybe I'm just impatient, because I played the MI games in the era of the Internet, but I did need to check a FAQ and the result was often "I never would have gotten that", without endless trial and error and running around between five different places I was stuck at with no indication of how what I was doing even related to my quest.
Of course, the other way it could be done, to give the player some indication of what the hell they're trying to do so that they could work out how to do it, is a hint system, which we know Telltale are now using. I think that having one of those as an option is a good way of opening the genre up to people who have been wary of it for years (and I know many people like that). I don't personally intend to make much use of the hint system unless the puzzles ever become unfair again (which I doubt because it's Telltale), but just having that last point in the puzzle, a goal that the player still needs to work out how to get to themselves, is the perfect way to do it. Don't give me hints that tell me what to do and how to do it, give me hints that tell me what I want to achieve. Which ideally, the games should have done in some form in the first place, and some of the classic ones didn't.
Well, if you can't get Earl Boen... your replacement vocal artist should listen closely to what Boen does with a line like "Ooooooo, the lass has spirit!" in CMI.
That ain't no half-assed demon-pirate voice. That's Character.
Comments
Who isn't influenced by that game? I guess maybe sub consciously I was.
I know this is a little bit early...actually, too damn early to say, but I'm gonna risk asking you this anyway:
-When will we see Season 3 of Sam n Max?
also
-If the first season of ToMI sells enough copies (episodes), will you make a second season? Or it is just a stand-alone non-futuristic project?
One more thing, and I know that everybody asked you this... The buttons/badges, how can we get those in our posession without going all "I'm a pirate, I've come to plunder, give me buttons!" on your headquarters?
itll be awesome if there is a season 2
More money for telltales
np: Quasimodo Jones - The Ballad Of Quasimodo Jones (Robots & Rebels)
It can't be worse than Cheese 'n' Bun which when you boil it down turned out to be about a sandwich.
Yes,I think it was a disguise, he still
And he did it before in the 1st game.
i should stop abusing the spoiler thing
Wow, that's lack of self insight! Roberta Williams wrote some of the most illogical, unfair and downright bad puzzles in the history of adventure gaming. Education will not help you solve those puzzles. It was a test of patience more than anything.
Well.
Except maybe a 6 hour Stan sales pitch. That might be pushing it.
No, but seriously. the puzzles in the new S&M, SB and W&G series are just downright wussy compared to the old MI puzzles. We were bred on stronger grog than this and I for one can't stomach the watered-down version.
Like come on, it was the PAIN of going through the oop chee ack that made it so maddeningly memorable. Loved it.
IMO, hints to the game only breed the generation of lazy whiners we see growing up around us.
But agreed, the fun is in knowing you have solved a puzzle, rather than tried everything.
I've been waiting for this so long, that I just.... JUST... CAN'T BELEIVE IT!
I can't even think about any interesting question to make!
Hugs from Spain!
Ummm, here's another question: Would you accept help from your fans while working on a Monkey Island title? I mean, it would be exciting to find an unnoficial way of collaborating with you. Maybe gather a small group of people (such as us), and ask them to fill out forms with questions like
"Who would you like to see most in the next Monkey Island game, besides the main characters? a) Stan b) Murray c) Herman"
or
"What location would you like to see once more in the next MI title? a) Melee Island b) Blood Island c) Phatt Island"
Maybe I'm just rambling here, but I think most of us would like to help a bit at creating a MI title.
Although a lot puzzles have logical solutions, many many more require lateral thinking. Thats the secret of a good puzzle IMO.
Use key to open door is logical.
Use monkey as wrench to to turn off a waterfall is lateral thinking. (OK, extreme example)
Because of this (and SMI:SE) I've started playing through the series again - it's been a few of years since I did a complete play through all the games. It's surprising how much I don't remember!
I was talking about logical as opposed to illogical, not as opposed to lateral. In Ron Gilbert's words:
I wouldn't even have made the connection if it hadn't been mentioned in the E3 demo. I think it was the E3 demo?
I see what your saying, but I love puzzles that use plays on words etc that, at least initally, seem illogical.
However Im sure its fine line between challenging and frustrating when coming up with them.
But I totally dig what serweet said about the wrong answers. The new series all give one standard dialogue for "I can't use such and such with such and such". How boring can that get?
Well that puzzle is renowned for being the most 'lateral' in the games, and it was a killer puzzle. I'm not from the US though and still got there in the end. Once hypnotised however, the monkey was shaped like a wrench (spanner).
I think it took me so long to solve though that I probably would use a walkthough / hint system if they did something similar in Tales.
The Internet was the biggest thing that killed adventure games for a while IMO.
Since both LucasArts and Telltale use the new logo, I'm curious to know who created the new Monkey Island logo?
Actually, I do have a question. It was already said that Ron Gilbert was involved in the design. How does his involvement compare to Aardman's on Wallace & Gromit? Less, similar, more? Thanks!
I think this is a magnificent question and I, too would seek an answer to such an inquiry.
I think that's kind of the thing though. In that era, to actually set up a DOS computer and load up a game on it required a huge degree of patience and often trial-and-error.
LucasArts created the new "Monkey Island" text for their special edition, and asked that we adopt that text for our logo as well. I did the "Tales of" banner and text, expecting it to not be final and just for E3, but I guess it is, or is damn close
Personally I would have preferred the banner and text aligned in the center, but I guess you wanted to do something different
Anyway, good job!
Bearded Guybrush, Zombie LeChuck... LeChuck's Revenge really is the team's favourite episode? Or at least the main influence for ToMI?
I hope so!
Well, zombies are just cool! But, the pox is different than zombies.. you'll see it affects people differently than just zombababifying them, more like a jaundice with one helluva fever. You'll also notice, Mr. Lechuck isn't decaying, he is actually quite pristine! Although, he probably stinks to high heavens.
Perhaps...perhaps...*deep booming echoing voice* WITH THE VOODOO POX HE FEEDS ON THEIR VERY SOULS....*wide eye'd expression*
*laughs* Nah.....
On a serious note though, what about English subtitles? As I'm hearing impaired, it seriously affects my enjoyment of a game if it's speech only (and makes it unplayable for the Deaf!) Please tell me there will be a text option (which includes intro's, cut-scenes, etc...)
Now for more funny - MI the movie, anyone?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_unbVaCe8a4
Telltale, I could kiss you. I'm glad I ended up buying SBCG4AP twice, knowing that it helped to fund your continued awesomeness.
(Yes, I know, spending all my days in these forums isn't the best way to do that... But how else could I bear the agony of waiting till July?)
Anyway, thanks for the answer, Ry! I really admire the work you're doing with TMI (or ToMI... I keep changing this helluvanacronym): all characters look great so far (no-one's commented on Voodo Lady's new make-up, very haunting), and I also love the few setting sketches we've seen.
In general, it's like puzzles were made to defeat the player and satisfy the designer, rather than to make the player feel satisfied when they finally work it out. They tend to be based on the developer's logic, so that you could only follow their line of thinking from the method to the solution if you had made the game. This wouldn't be so bad if you already knew where point B was, and merely had to find the path from A to B, but sometimes you aren't even sure what you're trying to do or what your starting point is. There are too many gaps in the player's knowledge for clever thinking to be enough. When you have no idea if you're even on the right track, and the game gives you no indication, you can spend an hour doing the wrong thing, or you can spend an hour ALMOST doing the right thing, then give up and try a completely different (wrong) track. It stops being fun and off to the Internet for spoilers we go. I even noticed this more recently, when I played the almighty Grim Fandango. You're trying to work out both what your goal is, and a way of getting there. You have no pieces of the puzzle to start filling it in, and often a massive inventory with a billion time-wasting combinations to work with (this is why I want a MI2 remake) - but you don't even know if you have the item you need or if you're accomplishing nothing.
It wasn't until Telltale showed up with Sam & Max that Adventure games really became what they should be (although I loved the original S&M as well). You were far more likely to have a point B - or more often, C - to aim for, or a point A to start from, and it was possible to work it out with your OWN logic, not by reading the developer's mind. (Again, MI2 tended to make it worse because you had access to so many different places that you had no idea where you could currently make progress or if you were wasting time, or if you needed an item from a completely different place to progress in this one.) That's what makes a puzzle really fun. Maybe I'm just impatient, because I played the MI games in the era of the Internet, but I did need to check a FAQ and the result was often "I never would have gotten that", without endless trial and error and running around between five different places I was stuck at with no indication of how what I was doing even related to my quest.
Of course, the other way it could be done, to give the player some indication of what the hell they're trying to do so that they could work out how to do it, is a hint system, which we know Telltale are now using. I think that having one of those as an option is a good way of opening the genre up to people who have been wary of it for years (and I know many people like that). I don't personally intend to make much use of the hint system unless the puzzles ever become unfair again (which I doubt because it's Telltale), but just having that last point in the puzzle, a goal that the player still needs to work out how to get to themselves, is the perfect way to do it. Don't give me hints that tell me what to do and how to do it, give me hints that tell me what I want to achieve. Which ideally, the games should have done in some form in the first place, and some of the classic ones didn't.
That ain't no half-assed demon-pirate voice. That's Character.