Did Telltale plan on Luke vs Kenny and change?
While I was working yesterday I was thinking about this. It seemed like from the beginning they were setting up a choice between Kenny, and Luke. Then it switched to Jane. The audio of Luke appearing to survive from drowning also seems to support this. This is just a guess mind you. But I'm wondering if perhaps the original plan was for Jane to drown, and that be the thing that really causes Luke to finally put his foot down, and stand up to Kenny which leads to the fight scene where you choose between Kenny, and Luke. My guess is that if they changed midstream it probably had to do with people complaining about Cluke or whatever people thinking it was creepy. What say you?
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Whether they changed it or not I don't know, but if they did change it, I highly doubt it was because of some weird, demented, and twisted fantasy ship between a grown adult and an 11 year old child.
I dunno, wasn't even one of the female voice actors even complaining about it? Thought I read about that on here.
Nah, according to Kenny's voice actor (Gavin Hammon) Luke was slated to die since at least the day he got the script for episode 5. And no, I doubt if it ever was changed a ship wouldn't cause it since there are a lot of other ships that are much creepier that that one.
I say if that was the case, Telltale better hope for their sakes it isn't, or my anger will have no limit and there is no joking behind this comment [Seriously! Luke was one of my favorite characters and if he got killed because of that, no just...no, hell no! Jesus are you friggin kiddin' me?]
I think however, it was more to do with them not wanting to be predictable, for whatever reason. The others things, I'm not sure on those. I heard from one of the 'did you know' threads it was supposed to be between saving Luke and Kenny in the storm and Jane might've drowned in the lake of stupid instead. But the early episodes did seem to set up the whole 'these two will be important to the main story' something that greatly interested me because of how vastly different they were and it opened a lot of debates to me on which was better equiped to deal with a ZA and who was Clem better to be learning from etc etc. And I like Jane, I would've prefer her to come back for another season not as a determinant character, but if she'd been the one to die in the water saving Clem, it might've redeemed her character after being a loner and trying to be distant from everybody, so it might've worked...with it not being a lake of course.
Honestly, that fight was dumb as shit. Even if it'd been Luke it would've been dumb if they'd kept the hiding baby stuff. But I wish they'd stuck with a Kenny/Luke choice business whatever it'd been, and not tried to plot trick us because it was apparently too predictable to get too excited for something and throw in a plot twist that felt weaker to me than what the game's story could've been if they'd just stuck to their guns. Instead it's even hard to even enjoy the earlier episodes, because this thought pops into my head 'it's a trick, all this cool stuff between these guys was scrapped for a dumb trick.'
I mean it when I've said it in the past, that Season 2 disappointed me for this [and several other things] and still has me on guard for the next season, because I'm even worried to say anything about it on here when the episodes do start popping out, in case anything we the fans discuss gets deemed too predictable by Telltale and things get changed for the worst [no jokes, I even hold back on saying the real deep theories that I have on Tales from the Borderlands because I don't want to see my favorite characters get slaughtered or see things go crappy]. I don't care if it's a ZA or on the whole 'no character is safe' business, seriously go tell Rick and Carl that, because if that were true, they'd all be dead by now, which makes my point: realism doesn't work for shit if your story isn't decent.
But to sum up, my guess is like what I said, in it being the reasons of it being predictable...despite there not being anything wrong with that if the story in predictable question had been decent.
Want to know when predictable isn't good? =_= when nearly all your characters keep dying.
Rant over, I need a hug ;_;
They were writing the script for Episode 5 not long after Episode 2 came out; it was said so during one of the Playing Dead episodes. Likewise, Gavin wouldn't have known at that time what was going to happen until later is my guess. Has he ever said exactly when he got the script? o.o
That helped?
I think Luke was always meant to die in the lake. Luke isn't the only one to side against Kenny. Everyone always disagreed with the way Kenny wanted to do things.
Luke was just the defacto leader prior to Kenny showing up....and he's the closest person to Clementine (aside from maybe Jane and Kenny)....who else is going to stand up to Kenny? Bonnie? Mike? Rebecca? Why would they use anyone but Luke to oppose Kenny?
It was a red herring meant to throw the player off; If Luke lived to the end there would have to change the ending b/c Luke wouldn't put a baby's life in danger like that, nor do I think his character would purposely start a fight with Kenny to manipulate Clementine into siding with him. Luke's not that kinda guy, otherwise he wouldn't have left Howes in the first place, but he'd have taken Carver out.
Taking a look back, there seemed to be some kind of Luke v. Kenny thing building up.
Ep. 2 - Who did you sit with? Luke or Kenny?
Ep. 4- Listen to Kenny (Leave now) or listen to Luke (Leave later)
Also keep in mind that most of the dialogue between the two involved them arguing then Clem going "Hey, Luke's right." or "Hey, Kenny's right." You would think they were building up to an ultimate Luke (good guy) or Kenny (nostalgia) choice in the end.
IIRC, Luke's death was planned from the beginning. So no, I don't think so.
I think they had a seemingly interesting concept, but realized half way through making a choice between an ongoing rivalry between two characters that both had (let's face it) built up fairly stingy fan bases and extremely dedicated to one or another wasn't going to fly. So, I think what happened was they flipped the script for no other reason than to keep, what they thought, would be the players "on their toes."
Here's the problem though, they had pushed themselves into a creative corner. Having all the friction between Ken and Jane forced into the final hour and twenty some minutes plus trying to balance all the baby and Arvo stuff was destined to fail from the jump. It's just not enough time to establish a strong rooted rivalry that'd be hard to decide upon for anyone. And this is especially evident when people like myself just push the "fuck it" big red button and get rid of both. What's the tension building up to if you can just say "nah, I don't want either of you chucklefucks messing up my plans anymore"?
I never heard anything about that, but to be fair, I've only been on here since October, but the whole idea of the writers changing it because of one crazy fan girl sounds stupid.
I think that could've been a very real plotline possibility, and even though I'm a Jane fan, I think I would've been better with that ending than the one we got, if Jane had died in that lake and maybe saved Clem or Luke and had gotten to redeem herself a bit like Lilac said. (Though honestly I didn't want anyone to die at alll. :sobs:) At least Jane's ending to her arc would've made more sense there.
Ahem, but I have to point out--and I haven't read the discussions on the forum here on the recent season finale so forgive me if I'm being redundant--that for a long time I've seen Glenn from the TV show to be very very similar to Luke. Both of them are generally great guys, and neither of them are willing to kill other people if they can really, really help it. And yeah Kennyftw, I think you're right--if Jane had died, and if it was very clear that it was Kenny's fault that she died (tho idk how that would work to keep in line with Kenny's character), or if something happened in addition to that to really rile up Luke's and Kenny's anger towards each other, I think that Luke would have put his foot down, though I don't think it'd be enough for him to want to kill Kenny or get into a true full-fledged fight-to-the-death with him.
So anyway back on the season finale--near the end, Glenn fights with Nicholas because Glenn's so damn angry that Nicholas basically doomed Noah to die (not to mention Nicholas tries to kill Glenn too, that scheming scumbag), and Glenn comes really close to killing Nicholas out of frustration and anger and sorrow. But Glenn doesn't, because he can't bring himself to. Instead, the two limp together back to Alexandria, supporting each other as they go. I think that's how Luke would've reacted in a situation with Kenny if Jane had died--the fight would've started somehow (probably accidentally) and Luke'd defend himself from Kenny and once Luke was pushed enough, he would've been really angry at Kenny and maybe, maybe, tried to kill Kenny, but he wouldn't be able to, like Glenn couldn't--or wouldn't--kill Nicholas. And maybe during this fight Kenny would've just seen red and lost control and tried to kill Luke even if he didn't really mean to (though I think Kenny'd have to be insanely angry at Luke to really do that), and that's when Clem would have to step in. Maybe that's why they had the hiding-baby plot thing there, because, even though Luke would never hide AJ like that, I don't know how else Kenny'd get so red-eyed to try to outright kill someone like that. Honestly I don't think either Luke or Kenny could've been pushed so far to try to kill each other really, if we take the baby-hiding thing out of the equation. Idk, you'd have to change a lot of little things to make it really really work and for the plot to make sense while still remaining true to both Luke's and Kenny's characters (which I don't think they did with Jane's character in the final fight at all) but yeah. Maybe that's why they replaced Jane with Luke, because I really don't see a huge conflict coming out of Kenny and Luke fighting like that, or it making sense for them to want to kill each other. So maybe Kenny vs. Jane just made more sense, plot-wise for TT to write, rather than writing Luke vs. Kenny did. In the game version, Telltale was just trying to squeeze out a conflict out of literally nothing, and even if Luke vs. Kenny might have worked, the game-version of Kenny vs. Jane really didn't work at all either. At least, not for me.
Yes ;_; thank you Justin.
All this conflict in the playground, why did there have to be fighting? ;_; it's so generic. I remember some of the fandom way back when being convinced Kenny and Luke were going to fight or having to save one of their asses, and I remember just waiting for Telltale to do something really clever like that dinner scene again where there'd be this god awful decision and there was no actual danger or stupid punch up involved.
Season 3 is going to be awesome bro, right? T_T R-Right!?
I might be wrong, but I heard that Gavin Hammon said that Telltale planned for Luke to die, but not in a Kenny vs Luke fight
I gots one for ya too ,<( ^-^ )>"
I like the Fuckit Button option though.
Season 3: yeeeaaah, we're screwed...
As do I, simply because it let me get away from Jane and Kenny. But that shouldn't be the reasoning behind an option in a choice that is supposed to be hard and conflicting.
haha yeah, although the first time I ended up with Jane. I'm not sure who I want to end up with, cause I want one of 'em at least.
I want none of 'em. They were both garbage in my opinion.
Although Jane was more of a garbage filled with stinky bottles and cans, Kenny was garbage filled with shit and vomit.
Then don't get it if you think you're not gonna like it. Problem solved.
Group hug! Everybody group hug!
lol Well then xD
YAAAAAYY!!
Nah, I wanna see this through to the end.
I think that would've been a nice surprise from a stupid fight. Or imagine maybe, that it started out as a physical fight between Luke and Kenny (so you'd still have some action at the end if that's what TT was going for), but then that conflict devolved into nothing, and it did turn into this quiet decision like you said--who would you rather go with, as for one reason or another, the two men wouldn't travel with each other anymore. I think another problem too would've been deciding who the baby went with too tho. Maybe Luke would've thought Kenny could've used AJ to keep Kenny going and living, but I think Luke might not trust Kenny with the baby either. Perhaps that could've been a second major decision in the game too, and would've added another little surprise.
Just keep those expectations loooow, brooo. Then you'll be happy with whatever comes out. <__<
...But wait I know the perfect solutionnn. Kenny and Luke'd just brofist til the end of time, and then no one would get angry at each other, and you wouldn't have to choose between anyone, and they'd all travel together and be happy, and there would be so much cheeeese in this ending of TWDG that all the walkers would get stuck in the cheeese and never bother the characters and the group'd have plenty of cheeeese to eat and never starve and...problem solved!!! :P
I think that Telltale, after examining so many Kenny vs Luke threads, realised if they went with that, that it would be a decision that no-one would be surprised about.
And that's why they went with the Kenny vs Jane deal, as it was so unexpected.
In other words, we ruined that opportunity to have a Kenny vs Luke decision, because we all talked about it so much.
Technically we're to blame for the Kenny vs Luke decision not being in the game.
Perhaps so, but they still didn't have to change it; it was still their choice at the end of the day and we as fans don't have control over the game, they do. They should've just taken all the Kenny vs Luke discussions on it into account as a positive thing that so many people were actively speaking about it, and not thought instead 'shit, we need to fix this.'
Nothing needed fixing, and there was nothing wrong people openly speaking about it or saying 'hey I wanna stick with this character' or 'I bet this'll happen'. Season 2 might still not have been as good as Season 1 with the decision like that in there, but hell it still would've been a damn better of a game if they'd kept going with one of the few consistent things they had. The last two episodes feel like they threw a bunch of random shit together and hoped we'd all still float with it to call it compelling, and the endings feel just as thrown together, because somehow I get the impression the Wellington type ending was supposed to be the true ending with whoever you picked [given how damn long it is compared to the others and feels like a stronger ending] and then Howl's and alone endings were just quickly put together for extras [it's been 9 days and Carver's corpse isn't even rotted and that family is so Sim generated from recycled bits of other characters it's a joke to call them 'characters'].
It's that way of thinking 'if they talk too much on it, fix it' that's got me scared for Season 3, and why suddenly keeping my mouth shut on theories and deep dicussions with fellow fans seems more appealing if it saves a repeating of events. In fact, perhaps we should all say nothing and they'll just take that as good sign they're doing right; I'd rather it be that than be tricked again and have decent plots be chucked out the window
: DDDD
I don't byuy that Luke was meant to die at the lake.
I do think it was going to be Luke Vs. Kenny but after Episode 2 when everyone predicted it, Telltale decided to do a B.S rewrite to quickly put Jane in.
Also, look at Jane's ending compared to Kenny's, it looks ridiculously rushed and half-assed. I think they had a really good Luke ending planned but rushed out a Jane one because people predicted it.
It would have been much better then Kenny or Jane and a honestly hard decision for me.
Unpredictablity=/=Greatness.
It would in fact make it an actually hard choice, the majority of the people always sided with Kenny or Jane, and didn't feel equal about both. Kenny and Luke were both liked pretty significantly and not many seemed to hate one or another when compared to eachother. Jane vs Kenny is always one sided, but Luke vs Kenny wouldn't have been as much
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arJ62OIrcI8
What I always found annoying as well was that to get the happyish ending, you got to let Kenny murder somebody...again the reason why I don't like the playground fight.
But you're right about the equal thing. If they'd set Jane up from the start like they were doing with Kenny and Luke in the early episodes instead of rushing her in at the end, her role would've felt more equal by that point and made the decision difficult. In fact, the tougher decision at the end wasn't the fight, but deciding if to have Clem stay at Wellington for her and A.J best interests, or to stay with Kenny...but yeah, gotta let murder happen first, wee! x_x but the most toughest decision overall in Season 2 for me was that table decision, and that says something.
It's like you said though, I was more voting for Luke but I don't hate Kenny at all, I was actually scared of there being a live and death choice between those two because I didn't want to have to let one die and save the other; I wanted them both to make it.
The table decision was hard because Luke was a nice person, and it would be rude to not sit with him. But it would also be rude to not sit with Kenny and catch up more with him and all thattttt. And honestly telltale was so lazy with season 2, they would never make a neutral ending possible.
It was because Job said "Pizza vs. Icecream! LELLELELELEELEEEEEE" and people obviously put two and two together and thought Luke and Kenny.
Telltale thought it was too predictable, really.
Anyway, Telltale better not try and replace Luke with another pretty farmboy. I can't handle two, let alone not screaming over Luke when his name is heard.
I think I saw Gavin's ask.fm saying that Luke was slated to die since Episode 3? But then I kind of doubt that since they built up so much intensity between Luke vs Kenny, only for it to be dropped and Jane be like "ay yo im here to fuck shit up."
It just doesn't make sense as to why built it all up and make it disperse.
It wasn't planned from the beginning. No one's even heard of that from a reliable source, let alone, an actual source.
Thank God for ZeroFleet.