Who would you get rid of?
I know a lot of people criticise Season 2 for multiple reasons (though I loved it), and especially for the way that the characters from the Cabin group were not used enough. But quite frankly, I've come to the conclusion that there were far too many: Carlos, Sarah, Nick, Luke, Rebecca, Pete, Alvin...then add it Kenny, Sarita and Walter...then Bonnie, Carver, Troy, Reggie, Mike and Jane...that 16 characters in total, and let's remember that at one time (depending on what happens with Alvin) 14 of them remain alive and playing a role in E3 of S2 (until Reggie's death, and then everything goes down hill for the Carver and co. from there).
The fact is, that's way too many characters to have to develop, especially when you get so many at once. Compare this to S1, were there were fewer characters, allowing a lot more time for character development, which overall is one of the major themes of TWD.
So, which characters could you kick out of TWD S2? Pete already dies, which is a shame but has to happen, and they could've got rid of Nick and just had you stuck with either one of them till they die at the beginning of E2 (with both dying); Alvin was pretty pointless; Sarita was also pointless; Troy was pretty unnecessary too; and maybe Mike could've been dropped, though that would've been the biggest character to be dropped (you could have Luke take over most of Mike's role though, giving him a bigger part in E5). That narrows the characters list from 16 to 10, which is a pretty good improvement and allows the other characters more time to develop. If you wanted to be EXTRA picky, then Walter, Reggie and Carlos could go, though that might leave to series with too LITTLE characters.
So, who would you drop from Season 2?
Comments
Drop Reggie, Jane, and Mike.
Also a few extra touches of my own id like in season 2:
I'd like to pick two if that's okay, Carlos and Sarah. Now I liked Sarah and I truly wish she had way more development and wasn't treated as a writer's burden, but Carlos really wasn't that much of a character other than an overprotective father, and the reason Sarah was even alive was because of her father. No matter who you get rid of, you'd have to get rid of the other. If you got rid of Carlos, then Sarah wouldn't have even been alive, and if you got rid of Sarah, you take away the only sort of aspect to Carlos' character other than him being a (shitty) doctor.
Get rid of Sarita, This way I would not have to deal with Kenny's problems again like season 1.
Even without Alvin in the story, It would been the same story.
Reggie, We did not need a character to die to show Carvers bad side.
It seems to me if you remove Kenny from Kenny Babysitter Simulator 2014 then the game would be more like the Walking Dead, so yeah, him.
If I had to pick one, it would be Kenny.
Some others; Mike, Bonnie, Reggie, I'd get rid of the 400 days cameos, the entire Russian group, Troy, and I'd say Sarita but a Sarita without Kenny might have been interesting. Well...a lot of the characters I listed could have been interesting if they were developed beyond being plot devices but whateva.
Sarita (plot device to give Kenny more grief) and Jane (cliche lone wolf survivor). Mike and Reggie were also pretty pointless, and Bonnie felt like she was just shoehorned in.
Sarita, Reggie, Mike and Jane.
Honestly, I'd drop everyone that made an appearance after All that Remains.
Give time to develop the cabin group and deepen their individual personalities instead of having the large cast of lame-brain bland caricatures fighting over each other's screen time that do nothing of notable interest and exist only to build up the lamest-brain blandest of hillbilly caricatures.
Id kick Bonnie out and replace her with Vince
I'd get rid of Arvo and the Russians. Replace them with the remains of Carver's camp, maybe even the 400 Days people if they were convinced to go there.
I'd rid myself of the lodge group (except Matthew), AJ & Bonnie.
I'd get rid of Carlos... he's such an asshole.
While TWD is a lot about character development, it is also about character interaction, and needs plenty of characters, even if that means having a lot of throwaways.
I wouldn't get rid of anyone, except maybe for Alvin. Carlos could have easily doubled for his role, or we could even have done entirely without and keep Rebecca's angst for Carver's child anyway.
The rest all have their roles:
Yes, it's slightly less crowded in S1, but the story there is also a lot more focused: try to escape to safety, fail miserably...except for E2(which does have throwaway characters in it by the way), that's the theme of the season.
S2 is more about actually trying to build a new life, and I'd say that requires more interactions.
Why drop Jane? I mean, I'm a Kenny fan, but she played a large part in Season 2, probably too large to drop her. I would've kept her, but had her killed off instead of Jane and then had Luke and Kenny fight, something like that.
As for Walter surviving instead of Alvin, personally I'd have neither of them. Kill both off, and then have Carlos either live or die instead of Alvin.
I think that Carlos could've played Alvin's role in E2- have Alvin and Walter killed off, and then depending on your choices Carlos can either live or die.
But I wouldn't drop Sarah, since her character was interesting and could've been developed on more. Sweep the dead wood aside and focus on the more interesting characters, like Sarah.
Actually, I think Carver killing someone was a good way to display his character. But I would've had him kill someone else, someone who wasn't immediately new (eg; Nick or Carlos?)
Id drop her simply because she annoys me lol, and i feel like telltale wouldnt have written in sarah's death if Jane didnt exist. She isnt the reason in the universe of the walking dead that sarah died, but for the sake of story shes probably the reason sarah got killed off. So Jane could have some sort of sympathy or relatability with Clem, etc.
Really? Look, I know a lot of people don't like Kenny, but his part is too big to take out. I don't like Jane, but I wouldn't take her out because she played such a big part.
Kenny and Bonnie's parts are too big to be taken out. But Mike could've gone, yea, and instead of Reggie Carver could've killed someone like Nick or Carlos.
That's a pretty good idea. I hadn't considered doing anything like that. Good call.
I like him
I agree with most of what you say, but Jane had too big a part to be taken out. They could've done more to develop her character though, like they did with Molly in S1. And I didn't like Bonnie, but her part was also quite big. Maybe having the choice of which 400 Days character to take with you would've been nice.
Good call
Why like Arvo? He was a sniffling, back stabbing, lying wimp who shot a little girl!
I too would go Ramsey on him
I thought he was quite nice, though I wasn't very nice to him as Clem
I wouldn't get rid of him, but I'd have him killed off earlier. Maybe he can get killed like Alvin in the cabin in E2 or Carver pushes him off the roof instead of Reggie or beats him down and actually does kill him instead of Kenny?
Yeah, but Kenny still had a cheap rehashed arc and wasted a lot of time that could have been used for other characters. Some of the stuff they had him do they could have assigned to other characters. Nick could have been the one beaten by Carver and maybe actually died from it instead of being found in the fence, (After getting more development though.) and characters like Rebecca or Carlos who actually have long-standing grudges against Carver could have killed him, and instead of Kenny v. Jane, Kenny could have been replaced by Luke and instead of them fighting Clem could maybe choose who to save or something.
As for Bonnie, she could have been replaced with a lamp and I doubt anybody would have noticed anything different.
I think now I'm just complaining more about how the characters were written instead of their actual roles, getting rid of bland characters that added nothing to the plot is a bit different than getting rid of bland characters that actually did stuff, so I guess I see your point.
"While TWD is a lot about character development, it is also about character interaction, and needs plenty of characters, even if that means having a lot of throwaways"
That's true, but the thing is that by having so many characters it actually undermines the interaction. Instead of just having a few "throwaways", almost ALL of the Cabin group were throwaways. There should've been fewer characters, allowing more in depth interaction and character development. And players actually might feel something when one of the cabin group dies.
Having characters in important, and too few would ruin the interaction element, but my point is that there are too many- as I pointed out 14 different characters were all alive at one time in E2! How are you meant to get any meaningful interaction out of all of those characters? The cast size should've been more like it was in Season 1, were there was a small core group. The characters in S1 lasted longer and gave the player more time to interact and know your character, and then were replaced by other core characters (eg; Larry and Lilly went and were replaced by Omid and Christa). And then there were a few throwaway characters (eg; Mark and Glenn). If the group was smaller, like in S1, then it would've been so much better for the story and for interaction.
I've told you before why I like him, on your other thread, the one about who will return for season 3.
I'd get rid of AJ entirely. Useless plot device that fails to get me to care one bit. The maximum potential he would have is dying in ATR. It would have been a great leap into the dark side and show how gritty the world is. Instead this super baby survives being frozen from inside a womb, dropped twice, surviving being shot at and surviving gun fire as well as being in the middle of it. Whats the good part of AJ? The reason we have to stick around him? "He's a baby we have to protect him" fuck that logic. I'm not letting a bad plot device ruin everything
Good idea. Arvo going to the board walk would be swapped with Russell and Becca going. We could replace Arvo with Becca and watch a zombified Shel be killed by Clementine. It would give a decent interaction/rivalry between the two
Just drop Kenny, Jane, Rebecca and Alvin.
Give Kenny’s role to Carlos. He’s the one who’s gradually consumed by rage, the one who gets beaten by Carver and later bashes his head in. Would’ve fit nicely with the implied history between the two & Luke’s foreshadowing that Carlos is “not nice”. If Sarah dies, Carlos can even be the one to get super attached to AJ and become violently protective of him.
I’d say the big dumb fight with Kenny/Jane was completely unneeded and should’ve been cut. But if there really has to be a big dumb conflict, make it Luke/Carlos, seeing as Episode 2 implied the two co-led the group and regularly butted heads (“I don’t like this”. “Well, when’s the last time you liked anything Carlos?”). Carlos is the one who desperately wants to find Wellington, Luke wants to go back to Howe’s for AJ’s safety which Carlos is against because all he can think of is Sarah’s death. Luke tries to leave with Clem and AJ, Carlos goes nuts and tries to kill him.
Rebecca and Alvin were just unnecessary characters. Keep Christa and Omid instead (this would also eliminate the need to keep Kenny for obligatory Season 1 references). Carver is after Christa because he wants a baby to raise as his protégé or whatever, Omid is the one who is determinately murdered by Carver. Hell, you could even have Christa be the one to kill Carver in revenge, showing how Omid’s positivity was the one thing keeping Christa’s cold cynicism in check.
Can't find this, would it be possible to get a link? Because I really find it very hard to understand how someone could possibly like him, honestly.
Let's recap my dealings with him, shall we? This is from my Clem's point of view, obviously.
Sooo. yeah. Your mileage may vary, I suppose, maybe you treated him worse and feel he's more justified in his actions, but I've tried my best to treat him nicer than he deserves, and he really showed his true colors(deep dark browns, I think) with his actions. Much, much worse that Bonnie and Mike, whose behavior I can understand. Maybe I just can't stand ingratitude.
Lets just say Arvo doesn't want to meet me again in Season 3. It wouldn't...end well for him.
I don't know if you read the TWD comics...I recently started because I was sucked in by this game...if you do, let me point you to Issue 33. Michonne vs Governor? That's a good start for the rest of Arvo's life. I don't g*****n care if I'm still an 11 year old at that point, she'll be pissed enough.
I'd agree with you completely, I hate Jane
Sarah dying sucked, but it was sort of inevitable and had to happen at some point. I would've liked more interaction and depth to Sarah before she died though.
Good character who wasn't given enough attention by TT
I'd completely disagree that Kenny was a complete rehashed act. There were major differences between the Kenny of S1 and S2, and it made it more interesting as the player had to work out who this new character really was and how he would react. Plus, every good series needs regular characters from Season to season, and Kenny was that character in S2 (and S3, if you choose him. Otherwise, it'd be Jane).
The whole Kenny V Jane thing, I agree, was ridiculous. Luke V Kenny would've made a lot more sense, with Jane dying off and that perhaps being either Luke or Kenny's fault to start a fight.
And I completely agree with what you say about Nick, though they could've just got rid of Nick completely and instead focused more on Sarah, Kenny, Jane, etc.
And I completely agree with you about Bonnie
It would've been better if they'd given you a choice of the 400 Days characters instead, rather than forcing Bonnie on you.
I don't think Jane would threaten Becca and potentially rob her. Becca and Clem should've had a chance to interact in E3, but I couldn't see her playing a part in E4 unless she was one of the people who ambushed you and her and Clem briefly noticed each other before the shooting started.
I would agree with you, but the problem is that AJ is a major plot device, and I'm not sure you'd be able to get rid of him without re-writing lots of S2, which I'd be trying to avoid. Maybe they could've changed his name to Lee Jr., which would've made a LOT more sense. Hopefully (and this sounds really, really dark) AJ might die or disappear in S3- not because I want to see babies die, but (as you say) to convey how harsh the world is.
Here:
https://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/comment/1895001/#Comment_1895001
Also I treated him with the utmost respect as he is my third favorite character.
What your saying make sense, but unfortunately it would mean re-writing lots, most actually, of S2, which I was trying to avoid when I was choosing which characters to get rid of. But, apart from that one issue, what you suggest is pretty interesting.
Ah, I see.
Well, too bad he is the one who put his sister in that situation. She was also already dead and rising by the time Clem shot her. If he didn't realize that after the initial shock he's not only a dick, but also dangerously stupid.
Heck I'd have understood him shooting Kenny. I'd even have understood him shooting Clementine when she first appeared armed that last night, or in case she started shouting for Kenny during the conversation. Not shooting Clem when he did though. Never. Not with the expression he had at the time, like he's saying "they're letting the girl go?! Nope, we can't have that!"
Look, I don't know why Arvo came back when I didn't rob him, but I'm not going to judge him for that until I see his reasoning, if we ever do. As well, it's not exactly a stretch to see why he thought his sister was still alive, he didn't see anything because Kenny was holding him hostage at that moment and he had previously been trying to give her CPR, I'm not even sure if we know where the bullets struck so it is possible he thought she might have been savable.