You can tell from the car ride that both of them were already itching for an excuse to rile up and kill the other. Jane's "justifications" don't hold water when it's clear that she really cared more about having Clementine than anything else - AJ was just a tool for her, whether it was to infuriate Kenny or to placate Clem.
Actually, After Kenny tried to punch her the first time, she had a opportunity to explain herself. Instead, she says "Im not gonna back down… more from you Kenny" or something along those lines.She wanted Kenny to attack her.She didn't try to explain herself. Also, she risked Clem, AJ, and was willing to let herself die just to earn Clem's favor.
Everyone knows Kenny is not a sane person. She's not sane either. They just have different problems. They both show that they will go to the extreme to prove their point and get their way.
Kenny wasn't twisted though. Jane pushed him and pushed him as best she could, decieved both him and Clementine with the intent of pushing … morehim over the edge because she had it in her head that he was losing his shit. But here's the thing- EVERYONE was losing their shit at that point. Clem, Bonnie, Mike, Kenny, and even Clem as far as I'm concerned. But Jane was possibly the worst of them, because she was trying to break another member of her group for her own insane reasons. Jane was the twisted one, not Kenny. Kenny was trying to keep everyone together, and Jane, like always, was trying to remove Kenny from the picture.
So here is my thoughts on the whole Kenny Jane shpeel. So the facts are Jane pretended like the baby was dead so Kenny would either stay doc… moreile and probably start crying breaking down, or he would become enraged and attack Jane. She knew this, that's why she tells Clem to just watch.
Now in my general opinion Jane was wrong for many reasons but first let's back up ab it to Kenny and his rage. A parent can and will get very protective if someone tries to harm there child like Lee anytime anyone did anything to Clem or Kenny with Duck. When someone kills someone's child that throws them over the edge. In fact if there hadn't been so many people, and the walkers were at their doorstep I feel Kenny would have killed Ben on the spot for what he did. Now go back to S2E5 and let's look at Kenny's emotional loss list Duck, Katjaa, Ben (Determinate if you save him), Walter, Mathew, Sarita, and Alvin (Assumed at the time). That's a lot of ones famil… [view original content]
I'm going to break this down. lets start with Jane
Jane first of all was right. Kenny is a hot headed loose cannon. Especially dangerous when anything gets between him the baby or Clem, but at some point unreasonably so. I understand what Jane was doing. She was baiting the bull and dragging the situation out to show it's ferocious nature. She was wrong for that and therefore a kind of a deceptive (fill in blank here).
Okay Kenny is broken man. He is someone who is extremely strong and weak willed at the same time. He able to fix himself by latching on to something else. That something else is always something to represents hope to him. And every time he loses that hope he breaks down (the boat, Sarita, the baby) only to eventually bring himself up however chaotic. Kenny has every right to be angry but he does not have the right to assume someones actions and be judge, jury and executioner. Just because someone has a trouble past were they made mistakes doesn't mean there always going to make those same mistakes.
Jane's fault was lying. But her lie should have never gave Kenny reason enough to try and kill her.
Put yourself in his shoes. A woman comes out of snow without the baby you care dearly for, this same woman has a history of leaving people a… morend it doesn't help you don't trust this woman also. You go outside to look for the baby and come back and get angry and she pulls out a knife and threatens you instead of explaining what happened as you are boiling with anger. Though granted Kenny kind of took it too far and considering he had people like Mike & Bonnie bickering at him and betraying him and even the argument in the car, he kept it together up until that point where Jane pulled that stunt that involved a baby's life. Do I agree with his action? No, do I understand why? Yes. What was Jane's excuse?
I could somewhat see why she wanted to prove a point to Clem, but it didn't need to go as far as it did. As Kenny said, she could have stopped it by saying AJ was actually alive. She got the reaction she wanted out of Kenny when he refused to believe AJ's death was accidental, so there was no reason to keep the fight going.
Especially when Kenny had her in a very dangerous position, you would think THAT WOULD BE THE BEST TIME to fess up but no she was putting her life on the line on the hope that Clementine would place more value of her life than someone else who she had WAY more history with which was another severely stupid game to play for Jane.
I could somewhat see why she wanted to prove a point to Clem, but it didn't need to go as far as it did. As Kenny said, she could have stop… moreped it by saying AJ was actually alive. She got the reaction she wanted out of Kenny when he refused to believe AJ's death was accidental, so there was no reason to keep the fight going.
Jane knows how to survive in this world. and even after everything she went through, she didn't lose her head. she became a bit cold and distant, but who would not .. and even then, she changed. because of Clementine, because Clem showed her that people are worth. and that's why she went back to the group. she said it herself.
Kenny had no condition to take care of two children, he loved me and I loved him too. but the man was broken, and I no longer felt safe with him.
Jane taught me more in one episode than all of Season 2 characters together. let Kenny kill her in that situation was NOT an option for me. if Bonnie or even Mike, I would have allowed. but not Jane!
I saw the end with Kenny! was wonderful and emotional. but unless you choose to stay in Wellington, this doesn't seem to be the safest possible end. going with the baby and Kenny with two bags of supplies and no safe place to go back to? is it really a good idea?
At least in the end with Jane. we have all Carver's camp at our disposal, much of the structure is still standing and much of the supplies still intact. Plus, we have a newcomer family to join us and help us with the reconstruction of the place. To me, THIS seems a much safer ending for Clem to be into and to create a newborn baby.
I had wished Luke was alive and that Jane had a better plan, or atleast explained to Clementine that she's trying to show what Kenny would likely do if something happens to AJ. In the end, I agree that Jane is the best choice.
She never say she KILLED the baby. She said the baby didn't made it. I suspected the freezing weather and bad feeding took its price when she said that.But Kenny was trying to push people into killing him since Sarita.
Well nobody really trusted Kenny in the first place. The cabin group we're suspicious of him when I didn't trust any of them to begin with, and the others that we picked up along the way ended up showing their true colors, which weren't any better than Kenny's as far as I'm concerned. Besides maybe Luke, I guess Luke ended up being alright. Dude deserved a better death.
I think Kenny's ending where he sacrifices himself so Clem and AJ can live safe in Wellington pretty much invalidates people saying he's beyond repair, really.
Kenny's quick to anger, but what he's been saying since EP4 turned out to be right. He distrusted Mike and Bonnie. He said Arvo would shoot Clementine the minute he had a gun on his hands. He was sure Wellington existed and was safe. What exactly didn't turn out to be true?
It's not the first time he was right about major things either,it's been happening since Season 1. He was the one to suggest Lee investigate the dairy . He prevented Larry from turning because it could happen really fast.He said Lilly was gonna lose it and turn on them eventually. He said leaving the motor inn was the best idea. He said they could find a boat in Savannah. He always distrusted Vernon. He advised against leaving the boat unattended.
Jane? She said Kenny was a ticking bomb and would explode eventually if he was left alone with Clem and AJ, but I guess he kinda proved her wrong when he sacrificed himself for them, you know. He's done that in the past, with Ben.
The problem is that the writing is designed to absolve Kenny and make him right. It's okay that he mistreats Arvo because that damn Russian shoots Clem. It's okay that he refuses to explain Wellington because he knows, without providing any proof, that it is real and he's lucky enough to find that it is. It's okay that he attacks Jane because any sane person would attack someone for acting like they deliberately killed their adoptive son. It's okay that you kill him or leave him behind because he won't bear any grudges whatsoever.
I think Kenny's ending where he sacrifices himself so Clem and AJ can live safe in Wellington pretty much invalidates people saying he's bey… moreond repair, really.
Kenny's quick to anger, but what he's been saying since EP4 turned out to be right. He distrusted Mike and Bonnie. He said Arvo would shoot Clementine the minute he had a gun on his hands. He was sure Wellington existed and was safe. What exactly didn't turn out to be true?
It's not the first time he was right about major things either,it's been happening since Season 1. He was the one to suggest Lee investigate the dairy . He prevented Larry from turning because it could happen really fast.He said Lilly was gonna lose it and turn on them eventually. He said leaving the motor inn was the best idea. He said they could find a boat in Savannah. He always distrusted Vernon. He advised against leaving the boat unattended.
Jane? She said Kenny was a ticking bomb and would explode ev… [view original content]
How was Wellington being talked about by Christa,Carver and Matthew, the last two telling Clem that they saw a ton of other people headed there before, not some sort of proof? Wellington hardly came out of nowhere. It was a big risk, but many other people were taking that risk, Kenny just chose to take it as well. What more proof could he offer? Give Wellington a phone call to check?
About Arvo, well , like I said, it isn't the first time Kenny's been right despite being reckless and loud about it.
Whether it's okay if he attacks Jane or not is entirely up to you, as I recall you CAN kill him by yourself in that very scene. That's the whole point of it... And of course he won't hate Clem. He knows that he's got a temper, and he's been snapping and apologizing for it since Season 1. His problem is that he's always blinded by anger and it takes something harsh happening for him to realize he's wrong. Like when Lee had to beat him at the train to get him to stop it, or how he realized he was wrong about Ben when he snapped at him.
The problem is that the writing is designed to absolve Kenny and make him right. It's okay that he mistreats Arvo because that damn Russian… more shoots Clem. It's okay that he refuses to explain Wellington because he knows, without providing any proof, that it is real and he's lucky enough to find that it is. It's okay that he attacks Jane because any sane person would attack someone for acting like they deliberately killed their adoptive son. It's okay that you kill him or leave him behind because he won't bear any grudges whatsoever.
I think Kenny's ending where he sacrifices himself so Clem and AJ can live safe in Wellington pretty much invalidates people saying he's bey… moreond repair, really.
Kenny's quick to anger, but what he's been saying since EP4 turned out to be right. He distrusted Mike and Bonnie. He said Arvo would shoot Clementine the minute he had a gun on his hands. He was sure Wellington existed and was safe. What exactly didn't turn out to be true?
It's not the first time he was right about major things either,it's been happening since Season 1. He was the one to suggest Lee investigate the dairy . He prevented Larry from turning because it could happen really fast.He said Lilly was gonna lose it and turn on them eventually. He said leaving the motor inn was the best idea. He said they could find a boat in Savannah. He always distrusted Vernon. He advised against leaving the boat unattended.
Jane? She said Kenny was a ticking bomb and would explode ev… [view original content]
Really? Treat someone like shit and that gives them the right to steal all the supplies, their transportation, and leave a baby and a little girl behind to fend for themselves without food,medicine and supplies? Clem says it herself, "You're taking everything we have!". It wasn't even towards Bonnie and Mike that Kenny's hatred was being targeted at.
If they at least had the decency to leave one bag behind as a gesture of good faith, I wouldn't have been so pissed at them.
To make her "see" that Kenny couldn't be saved, she had to flip the psychotic rage switch that sits in the dark recesses of every human mind.
To do that, she had to lie. That lie, in particular, was telling a widower that his newfound care and joy in the world--and a baby at that--was dead. Then, she practically goaded him into a deathmatch. A deathmatch that would end with Kenny's death, over an untruth he was told. It was a tragedy willingly orchestrated through deception.
I predicted this from the moment she appeared and "couldn't" stutter out the word "dead". I still shot poor Kenny, because I knew the Team wanted to do their best to make her lying as ambiguous as they could for a player given a gun, and because I wanted to leave Jane. So that I could "tell off" the greater evil. That's what it comes down to for people who could tell right away in advance, "lesser of two evils". Dear Telltale, why didn't you let me shoot her too?
There's really no right or wrong. But Kenny has treated a lot of people like shit and they turned on him as expected. No right or wrong. But I understand their logic and reasoning behind it.
Really? Treat someone like shit and that gives them the right to steal all the supplies, their transportation, and leave a baby and a little… more girl behind to fend for themselves without food,medicine and supplies? Clem says it herself, "You're taking everything we have!". It wasn't even towards Bonnie and Mike that Kenny's hatred was being targeted at.
If they at least had the decency to leave one bag behind as a gesture of good faith, I wouldn't have been so pissed at them.
Explanation first. I want a good damn reason as to why she left her behind... I won't assume she did it out of evil and automatically try to murder her..
Jane really didn't try that hard to convince him it was an accident. She kept egging him on.
I don't get that logic at all. Prove that someone's crazy by purposefully saying shit about their family and antagonizing them? Yeah no shit it would get them riled up. I have no idea what she was trying to prove. She proves that she is even worse than Kenny at the end. If you choose to leave her she pretty much admits that she needs Clementine. She wants a replacement for her sister.
In sharp contrast if you kill Jane Kenny is pretty accepting if you decide to go at it alone.
Yeah, but your logic fails because Kenny DIDN'T know Jane was messing with him. He thought the Baby was dead, and didn't even listen to Jane… more, even after she said it was an accident. What if Jane would NOT have messed with Kenny, and it really was an accident? Kenny would have killed someone innocent. Just as Lilly did.
The problem is that for the members of Carver's community, Wellington was something they knew nothing about. If Clementine or Kenny had bothered to explain what the community was and listen to what the other members of the group wanted, then they could have reached a consensus rather than falling apart.
And my opinion is that Arvo probably wouldn't have shot Clem if he hadn't been constantly brutalized by Kenny to begin with. It's telling that it's because of Kenny's mistreatment of Arvo that Mike and Bonnie are compelled to leave with him.
How was Wellington being talked about by Christa,Carver and Matthew, the last two telling Clem that they saw a ton of other people headed t… morehere before, not some sort of proof? Wellington hardly came out of nowhere. It was a big risk, but many other people were taking that risk, Kenny just chose to take it as well. What more proof could he offer? Give Wellington a phone call to check?
About Arvo, well , like I said, it isn't the first time Kenny's been right despite being reckless and loud about it.
Whether it's okay if he attacks Jane or not is entirely up to you, as I recall you CAN kill him by yourself in that very scene. That's the whole point of it... And of course he won't hate Clem. He knows that he's got a temper, and he's been snapping and apologizing for it since Season 1. His problem is that he's always blinded by anger and it takes something harsh happening for him to realize he's wrong. Like when Lee had to beat him at the … [view original content]
To make her "see" that Kenny couldn't be saved, she had to flip the psychotic rage switch that sits in the dark recesses of every human mind… more.
To do that, she had to lie. That lie, in particular, was telling a widower that his newfound care and joy in the world--and a baby at that--was dead. Then, she practically goaded him into a deathmatch. A deathmatch that would end with Kenny's death, over an untruth he was told. It was a tragedy willingly orchestrated through deception.
I predicted this from the moment she appeared and "couldn't" stutter out the word "dead". I still shot poor Kenny, because I knew the Team wanted to do their best to make her lying as ambiguous as they could for a player given a gun, and because I wanted to leave Jane. So that I could "tell off" the greater evil. That's what it comes down to for people who could tell right away in advance, "lesser of two evils". Dear Telltale, why didn't you let me shoot her too?
Same thing. i liked Jane, thought she redeemed herself, then she went out of her way to set off Kenny...that's just stupid. Id have caved in her face for getting the baby killed, that more based off of her own rep for bailing when things get tough.
For all his flaws, up until the end...Kenny stands by you and is man enough to realize what a mess he is. And lets you and AJ go...even if it means he dies in the end.
I thought she killed it or just abandoned it in the snow. She didn't answer when I asked her 'What did you do?!' and just said to not get i… moren the way of whatever happens so I figured she was gonna start some shit. I tried to de-escalate the situation, but I knew she was a loon so I let Kenny kill her in the end. Super glad I did, Kenny is the man. Just wished I hadn't pulled Kenny's arm and got him slashed as a result.
Jane wanted to show Clementine how deep Kenny's anger can go, to show her that anyone who does him wrong, no matter who they are or what their intentions were, would suffer the price, it is truly unknowing what Kenny would've done if Clementine lost AJ.
Everyone knew as much as everyone else about Wellington, there was nothing Clem and Kenny could tell them about it to reassure them other than what everyone already knew. Kenny did tell Luke about Wellington at EP2, and Carver's community already knew about it as well [thus Bonnie,Mike and Jane]. No one knew whether it really existed or not, but Kenny wanted to take the risk and follow the rumor.
And did you miss all the death glares Arvo had been giving Clem ever since she shot Natasha?
I never robbed from him, was nice to him and scolded Kenny at every turn, yet he still gave her death glares whenever she looked at him. I remember similar death glares from the moments before Lilly spontaneously killed Carley. It was the first thing I thought of when he kept staring at Clem like that. Arvo was broken and convinced that Clem killed his sister out of malice.
The problem is that for the members of Carver's community, Wellington was something they knew nothing about. If Clementine or Kenny had bot… morehered to explain what the community was and listen to what the other members of the group wanted, then they could have reached a consensus rather than falling apart.
And my opinion is that Arvo probably wouldn't have shot Clem if he hadn't been constantly brutalized by Kenny to begin with. It's telling that it's because of Kenny's mistreatment of Arvo that Mike and Bonnie are compelled to leave with him.
So losing a Baby, even accidental, is a good reason for people to murder? What if it really would have been an accident? He'd have murdered … moresomeone innocent without even listening to them. And that's almost exactly what Lilly did, only she really did suspect the right one (Ben).
I liked Jane, but I always got the impression that she wasnt all that emotionally stable herself. She seemed kinda traumatized by her sisters death (as much as she liked to pretend otherwise), and I think after the incident at the motor inn she kinda latched onto Clem as a replacement. Clem is competent and smart, and she wouldnt just give up and die. I think at the end, Jane would have done anything to make Clem stay with her and thats why she provoked him like that and she took the fight with Kenny to the death.
So yeah, I think they were both kinda crazy and desperate at that point.
I don't have that much of a problem with her plan, I have a problem with the fact that she stuck with it even after it was clear that she's … morerisking two lives for no good reason. At that point she stopped being a believable character and became a plot device.
It wasnt just to prove a point though. I mean, yeah, she is pretty fucked up cuz I think by that time she had already latched on to Clem as a replacement for her dead sis and was willing to do anything to make Clem stay with her.
It was honestly because she wanted to show that Kenny is very dangerous. But really? You are going to pretend you let the baby die? Just so you can have an excuse to kill him? That's really fucked up in my book. And just to prove a point?
Well, the right thing would have been to have not taken all the supplies and not taken the truck that Kenny got started in the first place, but they were perfectly fine with basically killing (leaving them to die) as long as they didn't have to face Clem, AJ, Jane, and Kenny when it happened.
There's really no right or wrong. But Kenny has treated a lot of people like shit and they turned on him as expected. No right or wrong. But I understand their logic and reasoning behind it.
Lee could be played in different ways and has been confirmed to have at least killed one guy for sleeping with his wife. Lee was great, but he wasn't a perfect saint.
She schemed her way into a fight that she believed she would win (because she couldn't just murder him in cold blood right in front of Clem), and then lost. What's so hard to understand about that?
But she implied it did. She lied to get a point across to Clem, and a stupid one at that.
How would she have tried to save the baby and n… moreevertheless lost it? That's impossible. The only way she could have lost it is by throwing it to the walkers and running away, and that's what it was interpreted as.
LOL! I'm actually really surprised that people are trying to defend their actions and paint it as anything other then mental/emotional instability.
To me it seems like BOTH Jane and Kenny are kinda insane at that point. Kenny has latched on the baby as a replacement for his dead son and Jane had latched on to Clem as a replacement for her dead sister. They both seems to be emotionally unable to deal with the idea of another loss, and thats why both of them were willing to take that fight to the death. No matter how you look at it, Janes plan was not rational. It reeked of desperation cuz she needs to find a way to make Clem go with her. And Kennys murdering rage is not in any way ok or justifiable.
In short, they are both acting from a place of crazy and while there are lots of reasons to pick one over the other, whose actions are more "justifiable" shouldn't be one of them.
Hm, okay guys, I admit she could have done a way better job at this. But, and you can't argue here, while she might not be sane either (who is in a ZA?), in the end her point WAS right. Kenny WAS dangerous, both to others and Clem. Even a Jerkass can have valid points, just look for the "Jerkass has a Point"-Trope on TvTropes .
But, the way she did was the worst way possible, I admit.
You can tell from the car ride that both of them were already itching for an excuse to rile up and kill the other. Jane's "justifications" … moredon't hold water when it's clear that she really cared more about having Clementine than anything else - AJ was just a tool for her, whether it was to infuriate Kenny or to placate Clem.
I chose Kenny in the end and have no regret. But honestly I am actually quite moved by Jane as well. Think about it, she put hers own life in all this ridiculous risk and danger just because she wants Clem to come with her. She is crazy and stupid and doing something entirely wrong IMO, but the motive makes me actually forgive her. She came back for Clem in the first place, she told her she'll never abandon her, and she stayed true to that promise, even giving away her own life in a twisted way to keep it. Deep down she really cares for Clem, and that's even harder for a loner like her and someone who have only known Clem for a few days.
I dunno. My Lee got pretty agro when Vernon simply suggested he leave Clem and then let Ben drop (in part cuz Ben ran away and left Clem when they were being attacked by walkers), so while he might not try to automatically murder her, I think Lee would go a little crazy if she came back without Clem after that scene in the car.
Comments
You can tell from the car ride that both of them were already itching for an excuse to rile up and kill the other. Jane's "justifications" don't hold water when it's clear that she really cared more about having Clementine than anything else - AJ was just a tool for her, whether it was to infuriate Kenny or to placate Clem.
Kenny was the one whose stubbornness and rage led everyone to lose their trust in him.
Same here.
I was fully willing to leave Kenny behind in order to keep AJ safer, but what Jane did made her just as unsympathetic and irrational.
I'm going to break this down. lets start with Jane
Jane first of all was right. Kenny is a hot headed loose cannon. Especially dangerous when anything gets between him the baby or Clem, but at some point unreasonably so. I understand what Jane was doing. She was baiting the bull and dragging the situation out to show it's ferocious nature. She was wrong for that and therefore a kind of a deceptive (fill in blank here).
Okay Kenny is broken man. He is someone who is extremely strong and weak willed at the same time. He able to fix himself by latching on to something else. That something else is always something to represents hope to him. And every time he loses that hope he breaks down (the boat, Sarita, the baby) only to eventually bring himself up however chaotic. Kenny has every right to be angry but he does not have the right to assume someones actions and be judge, jury and executioner. Just because someone has a trouble past were they made mistakes doesn't mean there always going to make those same mistakes.
Jane's fault was lying. But her lie should have never gave Kenny reason enough to try and kill her.
I could somewhat see why she wanted to prove a point to Clem, but it didn't need to go as far as it did. As Kenny said, she could have stopped it by saying AJ was actually alive. She got the reaction she wanted out of Kenny when he refused to believe AJ's death was accidental, so there was no reason to keep the fight going.
Especially when Kenny had her in a very dangerous position, you would think THAT WOULD BE THE BEST TIME to fess up but no she was putting her life on the line on the hope that Clementine would place more value of her life than someone else who she had WAY more history with which was another severely stupid game to play for Jane.
Jane knows how to survive in this world. and even after everything she went through, she didn't lose her head. she became a bit cold and distant, but who would not .. and even then, she changed. because of Clementine, because Clem showed her that people are worth. and that's why she went back to the group. she said it herself.
Kenny had no condition to take care of two children, he loved me and I loved him too. but the man was broken, and I no longer felt safe with him.
Jane taught me more in one episode than all of Season 2 characters together. let Kenny kill her in that situation was NOT an option for me. if Bonnie or even Mike, I would have allowed. but not Jane!
I saw the end with Kenny! was wonderful and emotional. but unless you choose to stay in Wellington, this doesn't seem to be the safest possible end. going with the baby and Kenny with two bags of supplies and no safe place to go back to? is it really a good idea?
At least in the end with Jane. we have all Carver's camp at our disposal, much of the structure is still standing and much of the supplies still intact. Plus, we have a newcomer family to join us and help us with the reconstruction of the place. To me, THIS seems a much safer ending for Clem to be into and to create a newborn baby.
TEAM KENNY to the end
She never say she KILLED the baby. She said the baby didn't made it. I suspected the freezing weather and bad feeding took its price when she said that.But Kenny was trying to push people into killing him since Sarita.
Well nobody really trusted Kenny in the first place. The cabin group we're suspicious of him when I didn't trust any of them to begin with, and the others that we picked up along the way ended up showing their true colors, which weren't any better than Kenny's as far as I'm concerned. Besides maybe Luke, I guess Luke ended up being alright. Dude deserved a better death.
I think Kenny's ending where he sacrifices himself so Clem and AJ can live safe in Wellington pretty much invalidates people saying he's beyond repair, really.
Kenny's quick to anger, but what he's been saying since EP4 turned out to be right. He distrusted Mike and Bonnie. He said Arvo would shoot Clementine the minute he had a gun on his hands. He was sure Wellington existed and was safe. What exactly didn't turn out to be true?
It's not the first time he was right about major things either,it's been happening since Season 1. He was the one to suggest Lee investigate the dairy . He prevented Larry from turning because it could happen really fast.He said Lilly was gonna lose it and turn on them eventually. He said leaving the motor inn was the best idea. He said they could find a boat in Savannah. He always distrusted Vernon. He advised against leaving the boat unattended.
Jane? She said Kenny was a ticking bomb and would explode eventually if he was left alone with Clem and AJ, but I guess he kinda proved her wrong when he sacrificed himself for them, you know. He's done that in the past, with Ben.
The problem is that the writing is designed to absolve Kenny and make him right. It's okay that he mistreats Arvo because that damn Russian shoots Clem. It's okay that he refuses to explain Wellington because he knows, without providing any proof, that it is real and he's lucky enough to find that it is. It's okay that he attacks Jane because any sane person would attack someone for acting like they deliberately killed their adoptive son. It's okay that you kill him or leave him behind because he won't bear any grudges whatsoever.
How was Wellington being talked about by Christa,Carver and Matthew, the last two telling Clem that they saw a ton of other people headed there before, not some sort of proof? Wellington hardly came out of nowhere. It was a big risk, but many other people were taking that risk, Kenny just chose to take it as well. What more proof could he offer? Give Wellington a phone call to check?
About Arvo, well , like I said, it isn't the first time Kenny's been right despite being reckless and loud about it.
Whether it's okay if he attacks Jane or not is entirely up to you, as I recall you CAN kill him by yourself in that very scene. That's the whole point of it... And of course he won't hate Clem. He knows that he's got a temper, and he's been snapping and apologizing for it since Season 1. His problem is that he's always blinded by anger and it takes something harsh happening for him to realize he's wrong. Like when Lee had to beat him at the train to get him to stop it, or how he realized he was wrong about Ben when he snapped at him.
Mike and Bonnie left because of him. They left Clementine too.
You can't treat people like shit then expect them not to turn on you.
Really? Treat someone like shit and that gives them the right to steal all the supplies, their transportation, and leave a baby and a little girl behind to fend for themselves without food,medicine and supplies? Clem says it herself, "You're taking everything we have!". It wasn't even towards Bonnie and Mike that Kenny's hatred was being targeted at.
If they at least had the decency to leave one bag behind as a gesture of good faith, I wouldn't have been so pissed at them.
To make her "see" that Kenny couldn't be saved, she had to flip the psychotic rage switch that sits in the dark recesses of every human mind.
To do that, she had to lie. That lie, in particular, was telling a widower that his newfound care and joy in the world--and a baby at that--was dead. Then, she practically goaded him into a deathmatch. A deathmatch that would end with Kenny's death, over an untruth he was told. It was a tragedy willingly orchestrated through deception.
I predicted this from the moment she appeared and "couldn't" stutter out the word "dead". I still shot poor Kenny, because I knew the Team wanted to do their best to make her lying as ambiguous as they could for a player given a gun, and because I wanted to leave Jane. So that I could "tell off" the greater evil. That's what it comes down to for people who could tell right away in advance, "lesser of two evils". Dear Telltale, why didn't you let me shoot her too?
There's really no right or wrong. But Kenny has treated a lot of people like shit and they turned on him as expected. No right or wrong. But I understand their logic and reasoning behind it.
If Jane did this to Lee with Clem...
This is never "right".
Lee and Kenny are TWO different personalities.
Lee would've handled it much different.
I'm just saying that, if we were controlling Lee, and Jane didn't come back with Clem, saying "it was an accident," how would you have reacted?
Explanation first. I want a good damn reason as to why she left her behind... I won't assume she did it out of evil and automatically try to murder her..
Jane really didn't try that hard to convince him it was an accident. She kept egging him on.
I don't get that logic at all. Prove that someone's crazy by purposefully saying shit about their family and antagonizing them? Yeah no shit it would get them riled up. I have no idea what she was trying to prove. She proves that she is even worse than Kenny at the end. If you choose to leave her she pretty much admits that she needs Clementine. She wants a replacement for her sister.
In sharp contrast if you kill Jane Kenny is pretty accepting if you decide to go at it alone.
The problem is that for the members of Carver's community, Wellington was something they knew nothing about. If Clementine or Kenny had bothered to explain what the community was and listen to what the other members of the group wanted, then they could have reached a consensus rather than falling apart.
And my opinion is that Arvo probably wouldn't have shot Clem if he hadn't been constantly brutalized by Kenny to begin with. It's telling that it's because of Kenny's mistreatment of Arvo that Mike and Bonnie are compelled to leave with him.
You could have just let him kill her and then shot him.
Same thing. i liked Jane, thought she redeemed herself, then she went out of her way to set off Kenny...that's just stupid. Id have caved in her face for getting the baby killed, that more based off of her own rep for bailing when things get tough.
For all his flaws, up until the end...Kenny stands by you and is man enough to realize what a mess he is. And lets you and AJ go...even if it means he dies in the end.
Jane wanted to show Clementine how deep Kenny's anger can go, to show her that anyone who does him wrong, no matter who they are or what their intentions were, would suffer the price, it is truly unknowing what Kenny would've done if Clementine lost AJ.
Everyone knew as much as everyone else about Wellington, there was nothing Clem and Kenny could tell them about it to reassure them other than what everyone already knew. Kenny did tell Luke about Wellington at EP2, and Carver's community already knew about it as well [thus Bonnie,Mike and Jane]. No one knew whether it really existed or not, but Kenny wanted to take the risk and follow the rumor.
And did you miss all the death glares Arvo had been giving Clem ever since she shot Natasha?
I never robbed from him, was nice to him and scolded Kenny at every turn, yet he still gave her death glares whenever she looked at him. I remember similar death glares from the moments before Lilly spontaneously killed Carley. It was the first thing I thought of when he kept staring at Clem like that. Arvo was broken and convinced that Clem killed his sister out of malice.
So if Lee was alive and it looked like Jane got Clementine killed, what would Lee do
I didn't want them both dead, that's not the point I'm trying to make. I actually skipped back and left with Kenny.
I liked Jane, but I always got the impression that she wasnt all that emotionally stable herself. She seemed kinda traumatized by her sisters death (as much as she liked to pretend otherwise), and I think after the incident at the motor inn she kinda latched onto Clem as a replacement. Clem is competent and smart, and she wouldnt just give up and die. I think at the end, Jane would have done anything to make Clem stay with her and thats why she provoked him like that and she took the fight with Kenny to the death.
So yeah, I think they were both kinda crazy and desperate at that point.
It wasnt just to prove a point though. I mean, yeah, she is pretty fucked up cuz I think by that time she had already latched on to Clem as a replacement for her dead sis and was willing to do anything to make Clem stay with her.
Well, the right thing would have been to have not taken all the supplies and not taken the truck that Kenny got started in the first place, but they were perfectly fine with basically killing (leaving them to die) as long as they didn't have to face Clem, AJ, Jane, and Kenny when it happened.
Lee could be played in different ways and has been confirmed to have at least killed one guy for sleeping with his wife. Lee was great, but he wasn't a perfect saint.
Obviously she intended to kill him, she just pissed him mad first in order to have an excuse to do it right in front of Clementine.
She schemed her way into a fight that she believed she would win (because she couldn't just murder him in cold blood right in front of Clem), and then lost. What's so hard to understand about that?
LOL! I'm actually really surprised that people are trying to defend their actions and paint it as anything other then mental/emotional instability.
To me it seems like BOTH Jane and Kenny are kinda insane at that point. Kenny has latched on the baby as a replacement for his dead son and Jane had latched on to Clem as a replacement for her dead sister. They both seems to be emotionally unable to deal with the idea of another loss, and thats why both of them were willing to take that fight to the death. No matter how you look at it, Janes plan was not rational. It reeked of desperation cuz she needs to find a way to make Clem go with her. And Kennys murdering rage is not in any way ok or justifiable.
In short, they are both acting from a place of crazy and while there are lots of reasons to pick one over the other, whose actions are more "justifiable" shouldn't be one of them.
@ Bokor and isiah51100
Hm, okay guys, I admit she could have done a way better job at this. But, and you can't argue here, while she might not be sane either (who is in a ZA?), in the end her point WAS right. Kenny WAS dangerous, both to others and Clem. Even a Jerkass can have valid points, just look for the "Jerkass has a Point"-Trope on TvTropes
.
But, the way she did was the worst way possible, I admit.
I chose Kenny in the end and have no regret. But honestly I am actually quite moved by Jane as well. Think about it, she put hers own life in all this ridiculous risk and danger just because she wants Clem to come with her. She is crazy and stupid and doing something entirely wrong IMO, but the motive makes me actually forgive her. She came back for Clem in the first place, she told her she'll never abandon her, and she stayed true to that promise, even giving away her own life in a twisted way to keep it. Deep down she really cares for Clem, and that's even harder for a loner like her and someone who have only known Clem for a few days.
You know the funniest part about people ragging on Kenny for not being AJ's Dad thing...
Lee wasn't Clem's Daddy either.
And in the end both men die for Clem...or in Kenny's case seem too depending on your path.
And don't tell me Lee didn't mess up. He made mistakes..who leaves Ben in charge of anything important?
I dunno. My Lee got pretty agro when Vernon simply suggested he leave Clem and then let Ben drop (in part cuz Ben ran away and left Clem when they were being attacked by walkers), so while he might not try to automatically murder her, I think Lee would go a little crazy if she came back without Clem after that scene in the car.