Why Jane IS Selfish and the main MAJOR fault in her plan.
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Why Jane IS Selfish.
Now I'm not just gonna come out and say "OMG Jane sucks and Kenny is the best! woooooo!"
I'm not gonna cover all sides of all different arguments but first things first. I've seen people making comments like "Jane isn't selfish she did this for Clem, and that for Clem, she cares about Clem". Yes, that's true she does care about Clem, but it's because Jane Needs Clem for herself. Jane needs her to survive, not physically, but mentally.
She says things like...
"You're 90% of the reason I came back" (The other 10% being Luke who's dead.)
"I did this for you Clem, for us" "I can't do this alone"
My point being Jane has her own agenda and helps and saves Clem for her own personal benefit of replacing Jamie. Jane needs Clem more than Clem needs Jane.
I was able to easily spot this because this isn't the first time I've seen a character like this recently. Jane's mindset is extremely similar to Joel's from The Last of Us (Skip this bit if you don't want it spoiled). Half way through TLOU Joel knows he's getting attached to Ellie so he tries to leave her with his brother because he doesn't wanna see her die, because he's already seen that once with his daughter. Jane leaves in Ep4 because she knows she's getting attached to Clem and she doesn't wanna see her die because she's already seen that with her sister.
Joel changes his mind. Jane changes her mind.
By the end of TLOU Joel needs Ellie to survive because in his eyes there's no point of living otherwise. Jane needs Clem to survive because in her eyes there's no point in living otherwise. She's selfish, simple as.
The main fault in Jane's plan
Now, time for the major fault in her plan which is a HUGE major reason Kenny has my trust and not her.
Kenny cares about BOTH Clem and AJ. Jane only cares about Clem and uses the baby as a tool to get to Clem. Want Proof?
Jane leaves AJ in the car, not a big deal right? AJ was never in any real danger right? WRONG!
Jane purposely started the fight with Kenny to try and trick Clem into thinking he's the bad guy, unstable etc etc, pretty much everyone knows that by now. I know she says to Clem "I didn't think Kenny would go that far" But that's complete bullshit. How could she possibly try and make Clem see what he really is without knowing how Kenny would really react.
But think about it this way.
What happens if she lost that fight, died, and the baby never cried out and reveled it's position?
Jane would of been the only one who knew that AJ was there and Clem and Kenny would've carried on assuming AJ was dead and never found him.
She would've got both herself and AJ killed all because she wanted Clem to herself.
Luckily AJ cried out but if he hadn't then AJ would've starved/froze to death. And Jane would be to blame.
Comments
hmm long to read you should get the conclusion at the very end
Not wanting someone to die because you feel like life wouldn't be worth living if they did is selfish? Everybody in that world needs something to hold onto, to give them hope to get through the day. Kenny had the baby and Clem, Lee had Clem, Clem had the baby. That's how people maintain some small shred of humanity despite all the horrific, brutal things they face. It's not selfish to want to protect the only person left in the world you have an emotional connection to. It's human.
I believe both Kenny and Jane have their faults and you make a compelling case about Jane here!
I just came here to give you a standing ovation on the TLOU comparison!!!!!!!! ITS JUST PERFECT. I see exactly what you mean in that respect, but I never knew how to verbalise it and you hit the nail on the head there!
You do realise that all you said about Jane 'needed' Clem to survive could just as easily be said about Kenny and the baby and clem, right?
Yet I don't see you saying he's selfish.
So, using your Logic, Kenny is selfish too for needing the baby for himself to survive mentally.
I don't think either Kenny or Jane are selfish for caring about someone, I don't think they even noticed they're using AJ/Clem to replace someone they loved.
But she's not doing it for the benefit of Clem. She's doing it for the benefit of herself. Kenny has Clem and AJ's best interest in minds and offers to leave Clem and AJ at wellington for their safety. Jane wouldn't do that because she wants/needs to be with Clem to survive mentally.
The thing is she's selfish because she wants to keep Clem to herself. Bonnie asks what does Clem want and that's something to really consider here. Jane doesn't do what Clem wants. Jane does what JANE wants. She knows Clem wouldn't just leave Kenny so she has to force it. THAT is what's selfish here. She isn't really considering Clem's feelings and puts AJ in danger just to get her way. However Kenny doesn't put Clem or AJ in danger once and instead protects them even going so far as to giving them up in order to help them. Basically to sum it up Jane will compromise AJ's wellbeing to help herself, whereas Kenny will compromise himself in order to help Clem or AJ.
Kenny has their safety in mind though. And Jane has her personal relationship with Clem in mind.
I call hypocrite on this thread! Kenny is also selfish. How can you blame someone for not being able to take care of a baby in the zombie apocalypse? Just look what happened to Crista's baby. If it was Clem's fault that the baby died it didnt give Crista the right to kill Clementine. If it was Jane's fault that the baby had died it didnt give Kenny the right to kill Jane.
I see Jane almost making the exact opposite development, she was selfish as a way of protecting herself, but she is slowly shreading that armor caring for others, Her being awkward with the baby at the house is just cute, wanting to take care of it and getting pas her resentment but not knowing how. The major flaw in her plan was the result of an underestimation of Kenny's state, she would have never put the knife away had she anticipated he would try to kill her.
The baby could have just hit his head in the collision for all anybod knew. But the fact that Kenny won't even let her try to explain, combined with the fact that in the car word fight, the only way to side with Kenny is to join in a classic abuse apolegtic argument "just don't do anything tol set him off". He has no bloody right to go off like that losses or not. I was not gonna let my Clementine slip into the mindset of the abused. the fact that Kenny would not even let a person explain what happened before trying to kill despite outside input to get him out ol his rage was enough in my book. In my view, the only healthy response her was to protect the flawed instead of the insane party in an unnessecary fight to the death.
Choosing to go with Kenny after he possibly lives is making the wrong decision based on all the events beforehand. Even though the story plays out ok, that does not validate the decision, you just got lucky to not get punished for a bad call. Atleast in my book.
Thank you. That's another reason why Jane is like Joel. He puts Ellie's feelings aside and focuses on benefiting his own. So does Jane.
But you could say Kenny only has their safety in mind because he failed to keep his wife, son and girlfriend safe.
Kenny is the farthest thing from selfish. His ending proves it.
Kenny does put clem in danger once. He leaves her alone in the horde.
In fact he did it twice by being capable of refusing to save her in season 1.
In fact he did it thrice by being capable of leaving lee to die in season 1.
In fact he did it four times by continuously being horrible to arvo, beating him and abusing him which led him to shoot Clem.
Whatever you think of her, she didn't deserve to be murdered and Kenny doesn't deserve to become the next Lily/Carver/Governor. Only you can save Kenny and Jane.
Do what Kenny wants, stop him from killing Jane and becoming a monster.
My my, a hypocritical Kenny fan?
I am positively
Jane isn't selfish... maybe a little. But not that much.
Still, i don't like her wanting Clem all to herself. That's one of the reasons why i let her die.
I highly doubt that Jane would do something similar to what Kenny did for clem, sacrificing his own safety for her's. [Kenny ending]
I explained every reason why Jane is selfish. Hell I even compared her to another selfish character.
Kenny proved he wasn't Carver and he wasn't selfish in his ending.
And that makes me a hypocrite? xD.
I wasn't even a Kenny fan before this episode.
Bravo...couldn't have put it better myself. I can understand why most players wouldn't want to accept this truth though...because it means you were tricked into killing Kenny by Jane's manipulations. I can willing admit she tricked me right up until she said the words "I did it for you, Clem". A horrible feeling passed though me when she said that....
As Jane sees it, the best thing for Clem is to be with her and not Kenny. For her, there is no other option to keep Clem safe than to keep Clem by her side and get as far away from Kenny as possible. So she does have Clem's interests in mind. They just also happen to align with her interests as well. There's kind of a divorced parent custody battle thing going on. But that doesn't mean she's selfish.
Clem cares about the baby, Jane doesn't, she proved that in my 2nd point. So she doesn't have Clem's best interests in mind.
Another post to insult Jane!?
Oh wow, thats a news!!!
I liked Jane more than Kenny before this episode. But by trying to show Clem "Kenny's true colors". Jane showed hers. She wants Clem to herself.
Sorry for this, but that's not true!
Jane care so much to Clem that she want to show her how Kenny was!
It's true, Jane did a bullshit with the baby, but she was right... Jane helped Clem from she met her, and Kenny!?
That was poor planning, not lack of caring. It didn't occur to her that Kenny would actually kill her. if she didn't care for the baby and only cares about being with Clem, then she could have just actually ditched it rather than doing what she did.
If jane cared that much about Clem, then why didn't she let her "choose" instead of forcing that stupid plan of hers ?
She wanted to have a reason to get rid of Kenny, god, she's crazy.
Was Jane's plan risky and entirely fucked up? Definitely. But hey, if Season 2 confirmed anything it was that Clementine's entire world is full of risks and fucked up, nihilistic realities. And here's the thing: Jane and Clementine's relationship was arguably more defined and developed over the course of two episodes than any of the other ones she had with Season 2's supporting players outside of Kenny. Indeed, the interest in Clementine's well being and humanity sparked something inside of the lone wolf Jane and inspired her to come round to the idea of embracing people once again. In fact, the decision to end Kenny's misery and path of self-detonation felt like an act of redemption for both he and Jane. In spite of everything I had gone through with Kenny, and many times I had sided with him, I felt there really was no other way. Jane and Clementine felt like the best fit out of a woeful situation.
All the supporting characters needed Clementine. She was the emotional bedrock of the group. That's what marked her out to Carver.
But I stand by that of all the characters, Jane had the most the impart with Clementine. Something in Clementine gives Jane hope, and something in Jane will teach Clementine how to survive.
Kenny's demise is absolutely tragic no matter how you view his character. It's my feeling that his horizon was always going to be filled with misery and self-loathing after his family was taken away.
Kenny's ending, whether he lives or dies, shows that he's an emotionally broken man whose ability to really cope with the ruthless requirements of survival continues to diminish. The way I see it, survival in that kind of world is a test of stamina. And Kenny's, unfortunately, had run out by the end of Season 2.
I really hate the threads where people talk bad about Kenny and Janes behavior...just dont try to make ur ending better
There was no manipulation whatsoever. I just happened to agree with everything she was saying about Kenny.
If you're going to say that people were tricked into siding with Jane, then I'm going to say that people only sided with Kenny because they were intimidated by him into doing so.
Maybe not for you, but I guarantee tons of people were tricked into shooting him. Because of the way the scene was set up. Kenny attacks first and Kenny gets the upper hand in the end. Making Jane look like the victim and Kenny the villain. Which isn't the case because it was Jane's fault. She wanted Kenny out of the picture and tried to turn Clem against Kenny all because she wants Clem to herself.
That may be true, but that doesn't mean you completely try and ruin someone in the process. What Jane did was very selfish and immoral.
And if her whole plan was only about protecting Clem, why didn't she try stopping the fight instead of escalating it to the point where someone needed to die? At any given time she could have said the baby was still alive in the truck. She had already proven what she wanted to prove about Kenny having a violent reaction, she didn't need to take it as far she did. She wanted to fight.
Also, Clem should be able to make these decisions on her own without Jane trying to manipulate her way of thinking.
Very good explanation. Whether people want to blame Kenny for his violent reaction or not, there is no way what Jane did in this situation should be considered morally acceptable. She didn't prove herself to be any better than Kenny. She was a huge hypocrite.
Say what you will about Kenny, but I would rather have him look after Clem any day of the week than a backstabbing, manipulative, dishonest, self serving person like Jane. At least Kenny had a good heart and meant well. Meanwhile he is easily as capable as Jane in regards to survival. I don't know why anyone would want Clem around Jane, yet be totally against Clem being around Kenny. It really doesn't make any sense at all.
That fourth example is garbage. The reason Clem was shot was because Clem killed Arvo's sister. Arvo didn't see his sister turn so he thought Clem just murdered her.
What? Kenny might have had the best interest of the group in mind, but he wouldn't hear any other suggestion than what he decided on his own. He pushed everyone away, except maybe Clem but he wasn't far from that. His actions teared the group apart, because he was selfish.
Kenny only realized how broken he was, after he killed Jane.
Yes he made a selfless act at Wellington but that is still based around the fact that he failed to project his family so he needs make up for that at least in his own head.
Bottom line I'm not saying kenny is a bad person but he is a selfish one.
Telltale must have a blast reading those threads
None of the endings is better than the other ones. You got the ending you choose and if you don't like it choose a different one. But there is no reason to tell people they're stupid for liking or accepting the ending they received because they see the whole situation in a different light. I mean that is what the whole series is about. None of the choices are black and white and that is why its interesting.
It is a really stupid plan... so stupid that it surprises me that it's Jane who made it... However I must say that she didn't do it all for herself. She think it's better for Clem to leave that "crazy old bastard who's going to get everyone killed". In E4, when Jane left she told Clem "not let them drag you down". She just thought that Kenny will drag Clem down.
Well, here in China we get lots of parents who force their kids to do what they hate just because they thought it will be good for them... you can't tell it's true love or not, but it's not for the parents themselves. So I think I can understand Jane's feeling.
If you leave Jane after shooting Kenny she says "I can't do this alone...okay? Is that what you want to hear?" It was always about Jane wanting Clem with her for Jane's sake.
Sorry but you're wrong. Janes whole mantra is to not get attached to people. . .it has never been anything about trust. She came back for the group, so clearly she isn't selfish. She SAVED Kenny. Key point there.
Jane was right. She didn't trick anyone or manipulate anyone lol. She literally proved us completely right at how angry Kenny got. You say Kenny cared about both Clem and the baby? How on earth can you say that. Kenny cared a helluva lot more about the baby then Clem. Get your facts straight and then we can continue this argument.