You're blatant disregard with the facts presented through the narrative throughout the story proves you are delusional. That isn't an insult. Its not an insult to call a fish a fish.
Good argument. 10/10. Totally changed everyone's perspective on the issue. Nice job.
Seriously though, I am willing to discuss with you i… moref you actually feel like trying to make some points. Sitting here dishing out baseless insults is just a waste of your time and it doesn't prove anything. Nothing about my points are delusional at all. I have strictly been talking about what actually happened in the game.
As Jane sees it, the best thing for Clem is to be with her and not Kenny. For her, there is no other option to keep Clem safe than to keep C… morelem by her side and get as far away from Kenny as possible. So she does have Clem's interests in mind. They just also happen to align with her interests as well. There's kind of a divorced parent custody battle thing going on. But that doesn't mean she's selfish.
When has that ever been indicated? Clem straight up commands Jane to risk her life for someone Jane saw as unsavable she still does it. How much more conflicted could their interests get?
Compare that to Kenny refusing to help Lee from under a door for refusing to help Kenny bash a man's face in with a block of salt in front of his terrified daughter figure. And his refusal to help Lee look for Clem if you don't back every dumbass plan of his or beg him to help you.
Yeah, even Jane admit herself it was stupid and she shouldn't have lied. Doing that batshit crazy trick with a baby to save Clementine? I am not going to believe that at all. Kenny will not endanger Clem and AJ no matter what. Maybe to others IF they endanger Clem or AJ. But to hurt Clem? Verbally, I guess... out of his frustration and exhaustion. But killing? NO. The endings with Kenny confirm that.
Why do you people who prefer Jane over him always saying that? Isn't it quite clear that Kenny is willing to save the kids. It's what makes him carry on, you know. Not for the sake of survival only. Sheesshh...
Again, I think selfish is the wrong word to use here. She didn't do what she did for herself. She did it to show Clem how violent and danger… moreous Kenny can be when he gets it in his head that you wronged him. After Kenny starts the fight, she did seem pretty fine with continuing it, but she never got to the point when she was about to kill him and pressed on. Would she have? I don't know. But Kenny did.
I agree. What Jane did was fucked up and stupid. I'm not denying that. But her intentions, as I saw them, were geared towards keeping Clementine safe. Kenny's intentions, on the other hand, involved nothing but vengeance and bloodlust. That's selfishness. And it's not the first time this has happened. Remember back at the house after the ice collapsed? Who was the one who pulled Clem out of the lake, built a fire to keep her warm and found supplies for her? Who was the one beating a defenseless kid bloody in front of her for no goddamn reason?
Well Jane did it to get Clem to leave Kenny because she saw Kenny as a threat to Clem's safety if she stays with him. This doesn't necessarily mean that Jane thinks Kenny would intentionally hurt Clem. Kenny hurts people when he's not thinking; when he judgement is clouded by vengeance or rage. Kenny intentionally hurts Clem verbally out of rage at the death of Sarita and unintentionally hurts her physically if she gets in the way of his enacting his vengeance towards Arvo. Kenny is an okay guy when he's in control of himself but does really fucked up stuff when his emotions get the better of him. Jane wanted Clem to see exactly how bad it can potentially get, but when her ploy got out of hand, she failed to put a stop to it.
Yeah, even Jane admit herself it was stupid and she shouldn't have lied. Doing that batshit crazy trick with a baby to save Clementine? I am… more not going to believe that at all. Kenny will not endanger Clem and AJ no matter what. Maybe to others IF they endanger Clem or AJ. But to hurt Clem? Verbally, I guess... out of his frustration and exhaustion. But killing? NO. The endings with Kenny confirm that.
Why do you people who prefer Jane over him always saying that? Isn't it quite clear that Kenny is willing to save the kids. It's what makes him carry on, you know. Not for the sake of survival only. Sheesshh...
When has that ever been indicated? Clem straight up commands Jane to risk her life for someone Jane saw as unsavable she still does it. How … moremuch more conflicted could their interests get?
Compare that to Kenny refusing to help Lee from under a door for refusing to help Kenny bash a man's face in with a block of salt in front of his terrified daughter figure. And his refusal to help Lee look for Clem if you don't back every dumbass plan of his or beg him to help you.
She didn't kick her sister to the side. Her sister was trapped on a roof with her and there was no way to get her to jump to the other side. So it was either stay with her sister and die to the oncoming hoard of zombies together with her or jump to the other side to save herself. She was willing to let Sarah die because she thought that it was the same situation and it would have been if Clem hadn't slapped Sarah at the last minute and dragged her up.
You have Jane all wrong. She doesn't abandon people when they're useless to her. She abandons people when they're a threat to her safety to help them. And even then she still tries to save them when Clem is involved, like when she helps Clem and Rebecca escape the hoard and when she jumps down to try to save Sarah at Clem's request. In fact, one of the first things that she does when she comes back is tell Clem to try to get Kenny to stop being such a crazy asshole. it isn't until his treatment of Arvo and his refusal to listen to the group that she starts to consider him a lost cause.
Is everyone forgetting how hard it might be for someone to recount how a baby had just been killed? Possibly torn apart by zombies? That wouldn't be a very nice thing to have to recount at the best of times, never mind after someone just called bullshit on you saying ti was an accident and shouting you're a baby killer (which at the time is all Clem and Kenny had to go on as to what had happened).
Why does Jane have to be the one to stop everything?
Uhm, because she started the whole situation? Jane is willing to get Kenny kill… moreed, this is obvious when she asks Clem to leave Kenny behind after he got out of the car. And when she hides AJ and pretends that he is dead, she knows that this will enrage Kenny. She can't possibly assume that Kenny would simply leave Clementine with her, knowing that Kenny would believe that she got AJ killed. It's her plan, it's her setup and that makes it her fault.
I know that Kenny was not the best guy each time, but I loved him. And call me stupid if you want, but in the heat of the game, I didn't think the baby was alive. If anything, I was unsure.
But when I was given the choice, I thought I had no other choice than to shot Kenny, 'coz he had lost it.
So I did it. And when the baby cried out... well... Jane disappointed me and I loved her. But the fact she made all that up to prove her point. I get why she did it, but I couldn't help myself but leave her behind, 'coz I felt kinda betrayed.
I might be insane for thinking this but hey, I was willing to keep Kenny AND Jane by my side. And the fact that it was obvious that Kenny was beyond repair, that he basically thanked me for killing him, helped me throught it. Untill I understood the entire picture.
I know he was an angry asshole from time to time (well, to be honest, most of the time this season), but I always wanted to pull him back whenever I was getting the chance. And I think in the second game I'm doing, I'm gonna keep him, because I also wanna see what he's capable of becoming in season 3.
And that's also why I was willing to let him take care of the baby : for his sanity. And I knew at the time that Clem was the only one who could save him from himself. I don't know, I'm still a found of Kenny in some way, even thought he's probably just a sick bast*rd to most of players.
Time and retry will prove me wrong or right, but it's just my opinion. I'm not asking anyone to share it. If that would have been entirely up to me, I would have find a way to keep them both.
(I saw someone talk about Bonnie. I know it's not the subject, but I'm angry at her and I didn't really like her, didn't trust her. I don't know yet what happens if you choose to help Luke instead of covering for him, but what she said to me afterwards was awful. Clem was always there to try and do whatever she could to help others.
"It must be good to be a pretty girl, nobody expects you to do anything". And WHO crawled under that gate to get water in the other episode, you b*tch ? When there was a walker behind and I nearly get Clem killed ?
So she might have let Clem speak for herself, but she was mean for no reason, when Clem tried nothing but to help Luke, maybe not in the way Bonnie wanted, but she helped. It's not my fault she can't get over her crush's death !
And I know it happened with Kenny too, but at least he didn't steal our supplies to run away with AJ. And he didn't give Arvo a gun (when I saw that, I was sure something was going to go down), which was the worst thing to do, neither did he said, looking to me while I was dying on the ground "Just leave her".
I kinda think the way you did... that's why i chose to stay at Wellington and stop continuing my Clem's journey with Kenny, not because I hate him, though. He's so unstable and it's time to end the adventure while it's too risky. It makes more sense to me (maybe I should tell you it was the saddest ending I've seen from season 2). BUT Shooting Kenny is way TOO much for me. Besides, I didn't want to wet Clem's hands by killing someone especially that man.
STILL not a good reason to test Kenny that way to prove a point. And you see yourself, it was out of her control. It was a stupid idea. I knew that just as soon when Jane convinced Clem to 'stay away out of it'. A true survivor wouldn't do that. Clem CARES about Kenny which why she cried when about to shoot Kenny. Jane doesn't understand that except making Clem saves her by killing.
I remember when in dreams, my Clem asked Lee "have you ever been that angry?" (until you decided to kill someone), Lee answered: Yes, once. Even Lee (a passionate and your typical good guy) himself ever snapped like that. When you lost things along the way, you change. That's what happen to Kenny. He snapped. If Jane was MORE sympathetic and more considerate to know that, she won't mouth off Kenny's family. She won't hurt his feeling.
I know that people may think choosing Jane over Kenny is like choosing to be rational over emotional. But it's still debatable. The way I see it, it's like choosing to be more hopeful not cynical, to be compassionate not egoistical.
Well Jane did it to get Clem to leave Kenny because she saw Kenny as a threat to Clem's safety if she stays with him. This doesn't necessari… morely mean that Jane thinks Kenny would intentionally hurt Clem. Kenny hurts people when he's not thinking; when he judgement is clouded by vengeance or rage. Kenny intentionally hurts Clem verbally out of rage at the death of Sarita and unintentionally hurts her physically if she gets in the way of his enacting his vengeance towards Arvo. Kenny is an okay guy when he's in control of himself but does really fucked up stuff when his emotions get the better of him. Jane wanted Clem to see exactly how bad it can potentially get, but when her ploy got out of hand, she failed to put a stop to it.
I chose to leave Kenny right after he killed Jane. I also didn't want to stain Clem's hands with the blood of another friend, but I couldn't stay with Kenny after that. I agree, though, that the Wellington ending was the most emotional and is the only one I would accept as an end to Clementine's story. Far better than the "alone" ending that I got where it wasn't even clear which direction I went.
I think Jane understood that Clem cares for Kenny and she knows how hard it was for Clem to have to do that. So I doubt her original plan was to have Clem shoot Kenny. She just wanted Clem to see how unstable he had become to convince Clem to go with her and leave Kenny behind. But yeah, it was poorly thought out and poorly executed. Made me lose a lot of respect for her.
The difference between Kenny and Lee, I feel, is that Kenny's fits of rage were starting to become more of a chronic problem than a one-time occurrence. After each time he lashes out, he promises that he'll do better and that he'll try to control himself next time but things just kept escalating with him. Kind of an abusive husband/father type scenario.
Choosing Jane over Kenny before her little stunt would be choosing rationality over emotion. Afterwards, you're just choosing which brand of crazy you can stand to deal with.
I kinda think the way you did... that's why i chose to stay at Wellington and stop continuing my Clem's journey with Kenny, not because I ha… morete him, though. He's so unstable and it's time to end the adventure while it's too risky. It makes more sense to me (maybe I should tell you it was the saddest ending I've seen from season 2). BUT Shooting Kenny is way TOO much for me. Besides, I didn't want to wet Clem's hands by killing someone especially that man.
STILL not a good reason to test Kenny that way to prove a point. And you see yourself, it was out of her control. It was a stupid idea. I knew that just as soon when Jane convinced Clem to 'stay away out of it'. A true survivor wouldn't do that. Clem CARES about Kenny which why she cried when about to shoot Kenny. Jane doesn't understand that except making Clem saves her by killing.
I remember when in dreams, my Clem asked Lee "have you ever been that angry?" (until you decided to kill… [view original content]
Gosh, I miss that old guy Kenny. it was so emotional at Wellington. He seems more peaceful but at the same time looks lonelier than ever. It may be the best for Clem and AJ, but I kinda wish I left with him. But I couldn't do that. I want to see the kids finally alright. Free from Jane's twisted ideology and Kenny's rage.
I chose to leave Kenny right after he killed Jane. I also didn't want to stain Clem's hands with the blood of another friend, but I couldn't… more stay with Kenny after that. I agree, though, that the Wellington ending was the most emotional and is the only one I would accept as an end to Clementine's story. Far better than the "alone" ending that I got where it wasn't even clear which direction I went.
I think Jane understood that Clem cares for Kenny and she knows how hard it was for Clem to have to do that. So I doubt her original plan was to have Clem shoot Kenny. She just wanted Clem to see how unstable he had become to convince Clem to go with her and leave Kenny behind. But yeah, it was poorly thought out and poorly executed. Made me lose a lot of respect for her.
The difference between Kenny and Lee, I feel, is that Kenny's fits of rage were starting to become more of a chronic problem than a one-time occurrence. After each time he la… [view original content]
Can you really GUARANTEE that? How could you be so sure? How do you know that? The answer is: you don't. You talk out of your rage over Kenny.
I am sorry but I can't picture Kenny would kill Clem if Clem accidentally lost the baby. maybe he would go berserk only verbally. Like he did with Sarita's death. But lose it on Clem like it was on Jane? LOL.
If Jane needing Clem is selfish then Kenny needing AJ is even more selfish. He put every thing had left into that baby. Thats why it was s… moreo easy for him to lose it on Jane. The Kenny apologists act like he never would do that to anyone... Jane proved he would. Anything happens to that baby under Clem's watch and I GUARANTEE he'd lose it just as badly. He had his blinders on to anything but AJ.
But you know. Jane's the "Selfish" one for trying to save Clem from that.
Your second paragraph is really a mere speculation of what Kenny thinks.. Kenny is a loving man. Unfortunately the fierce type. If what you said in first paragraph is true about him thought that Wellington means safety, than he would do anything to make Clem and AJ safe in Wellington. It is a fierce love. But it's love regardless. In the game there are two hugs done between Kenny and Clem.
He really DO cares about Clem and AJ. It wasn't only about him.
Kenny got it in his head that Wellington meant safety, just as he'd gotten in his head that a boat meant safety in S1. Despite not having an… morey evidence, just rumors. Anything that challenged that unfounded opinion was wrong and a threat. That's why he dislikes Jane despite everything she has done to help the group, she constantly challenges his "plan". Which makes her the enemy.
Once he got Clem to Wellington, he was "done". His task is fulfilled, he'd finished what he'd set out to do. Which kind of undermines this all being about Clem. It was all about him, proving to himself that it wasn't his fault he lost his family, that if he could take them to Wellington he'd be absolved. It's why he never gives Clem a choice. He's going to take you to Wellington, whether you want to go or not.
That's true. It was a deadly fight. It was a fight to death, each one only defend themselves. Kenny or Jane. The thing is who has the righteous reason to kill the other aside from self-defense? Jane to prove a point or Kenny that went snapped because someone toyed with a human's live?
By that reasoning, nothing Lee ever did in game 1 was of any value because he killed his wife for cheating on him.
If I'm going for a rea… moreson to kill someone, I think I would go after the alleged baby killer, not the adulteress.
Seriously though, there was no murder here. It was a fight, they were BOTH trying to kill each other. Kenny won. The end.
The tricks that Jane did STILL unnecessary. You didn't need to be killed just to prove a point. It is stupid. Jane herself said it was a stupid idea. I don't know if the word 'manipulation' fits right. I said it was just plain stupidity.
And you assume that Kenny was so different? he just did what he wanted. no matter what you say to him. no matter what everyone was talking t… moreo him, he wouldn't listen to anyone ..
Jane never manipulated Clem, she was just trying to show Clem the actions of a broken man. manipulation is something completely different..
Yeah, none of those endings would happen if it isn't your psycho lone-wolf Jane played with someone's emotion. Everyone doesn't see her stupidity because they are also being delusional. Jane is hot, badass, rational, cool, unemotional, blah blah... In the end, if it's not a stupidity to makes Kenny go berserk like that, then I don't know what it is.
"C'mon Clem.. I can't do this alone. Is that what you wanna hear?" said someone who finally being honest when at their weakest point. Kinda late for honesty, Jane.
If you really hate Kenny then don't follow it to arguments. Suck it up and live with your decision peacefully. If you are not taking the game seriously why you even bother being rude and all to people who choose not to kill Kenny? :-)
I'm being called every insult in the English language for liking Jane. And you think I'm being rude?
LOL
Its impossible to avoid because every fucking thread devolves into this argument. Too many people taking a game seriously.
First of all you are responding to something I said days ago. I have completely checked out of this entire argument. 2nd of all I have never once said I hated Kenny. In fact I have said on several occasions that I like Kenny.
The only people i've been rude to are those who are too stubborn to accept other's opinions. In fact I have called Jane fans out on their bullshit.
If you really hate Kenny then don't follow it to arguments. Suck it up and live with your decision peacefully. If you are not taking the game seriously why you even bother being rude and all to people who choose not to kill Kenny? :-)
not really. I liked kenny a lot in season one. back when he was at least sorta useful. but ultimately he is a hothead and a coward... which makes him sorta useless in the long run. he ditches his friends freaks out other people, and kills useful people.
I admire you're guts. Around here saying bad things about Kenny is like suicide.
why does that make it fair game for Kenny to kill her?
Because its Kenny and if you go against Kenny you're automatically the villain.
I agree with you 100%.
I'm impressed of how you were able to illustrate your arguement in such a sound and logical way.
Very nice!
Kenny also said the same thing abut Jane.
And he was right.
I to could tell that something about Jane was off.
And how she antagonized and berated poor Kenny in the truck, saying his late family thought of him as a monster, and that Clementine thought of him as a dead-man, was completely inappropriate, and angered me greatly.
She had the nerve to speak that way to a man who'd lost nearly everything and everyone he ever cared for, and who now was nearly an emotional cripple, that was such an indecent and unkind thing to do.
And I thus became completely disgusted with her character.
Even if Clem is a bitch after chopping off Sarita's hand, then putting an axe into Sarita's skull without saying a word, then Clem gives him… more shit in the tent, Kenny will still be nice to Clementine in episode 5, and still apologize to her despite all this. So no, he wouldn't try to kill her.
Also you clearly haven't seen Kenny's ending if you think he's selfish.
not really. I liked kenny a lot in season one. back when he was at least sorta useful. but ultimately he is a hothead and a coward... … morewhich makes him sorta useless in the long run. he ditches his friends freaks out other people, and kills useful people.
I was so glad that tell tale let me kill Kenny.
I've seen and dealt with abusive people my whole life.
I know how abusive people work.
However, I sensed a genuineness about Kenny.
After all, if Kenny was purely selfish and abusive, then why would he plead that Clementine and Alvie be aloud to stay in Wellington, even if it meant he couldn't?
And you have to remember that sometimes, people say things they don't mean cause of being hurt or angry, and consequently have hurt others.
I have, and I'm sure you have to.
We've all hurt other people.
There's not a person who has ever lived, that can claim they haven't.
Does that make us bad people?
Not necessarily.
What is the determining answer to that question, is how we choose to live our lives, and how we choose to treat others.
And you have to remember also, that people who are in a deep state of grief, especially if it because of the death of a loved one, often become angry and short tempered.
And can remain that way for a long time, sometimes years.
I know cause I've been there.
Years ago I lost a couple of ones that I deeply loved.
And in my grief, I became exactly like Kenny, angry about every little thing.
Oftens times going off on a fowl-mouthed tangent!
And I'm so grateful, that during that time, both my family and friends did not give up on me.
They were there for me, even when I was at my worst.
That's something you can't buy!
But that's what abusers usually do... They apologize in order to keep those they abuse from leaving.
"I'm sorry baby. You know how I get. It won't happen again."
X time later: "I'm sorry baby. You know how I get. It won't happen again."
Thanks. When I'm explaining a point, I always try to do it as clear and as complete as I can. Especially when it's not in my mother tongue. (I'm french).
Getting back on topic. It's not just about them, actually.
I didn't realized it, until someone pointed it out but...
The player might guess the baby's alive, but what about Clem and Kenny ?
What if I had let Kenny kill Jane, and AJ never cried ? They had every reason to assume he was dead. Why would they look for him in that case ?
The most frustrating is that I liked her. I was convinced she could be a good ally (she taught Clem a few things, after all !). But with this ending, no matter what, I couldn't take her with me, I didn't have the heart as she was the one who pushed me to kill my friend.
Because despite of all that's happened, Kenny was the one character I was hoping that would keep going. And that's why, when I'm playing again, even if he doesn't go with me, I'll allow Kenny to live. 'Coz I know with him alive, I'm pretty sure I'm seeing him again.
I agree with you 100%.
I'm impressed of how you were able to illustrate your arguement in such a sound and logical way.
Very nice!
Kenny … morealso said the same thing abut Jane.
And he was right.
I to could tell that something about Jane was off.
And how she antagonized and berated poor Kenny in the truck, saying his late family thought of him as a monster, and that Clementine thought of him as a dead-man, was completely inappropriate, and angered me greatly.
She had the nerve to speak that way to a man who'd lost nearly everything and everyone he ever cared for, and who now was nearly an emotional cripple, that was such an indecent and unkind thing to do.
And I thus became completely disgusted with her character.
Well (I'm not making this a polarising thing or anything), Jane had gone through some bad stuff too. Dragging her sister around for instance, then having to leave her to die. It didn't sound like she'd been with too many good groups either, but whether that was her fault for not integrating or not is conjecture. Didn't they hint that she had had sex with some guy at Howes as well? Considering that she shot the guy in the crotch on the way out I'm assuming she hadn't really wanted to (possible rape?).
My point is Kenny's loss is very obvious just to look at him. He looks broken (never mind the bashed in face). It also help a lot that we met Katja, Duck and Sarita, saw them and got to know them. Jane, we never met anyone from her past and well who was it who said it, Luke? That her bad experiences tempered her. Kenny did insult her and try to prick her in the car saying she was nothing, it was only because he knew nothing about her he couldn't hit the mark.
This was one of the hardest endings I've ever had to experience, and it wearies me simply put. Really I wish Luke had survived (really I wish Lee had survived!), Luke really could have been the bridge that kept the group together or longer. If Mike and Bonnie had just waited till morning...
I agree with you 100%.
I'm impressed of how you were able to illustrate your arguement in such a sound and logical way.
Very nice!
Kenny … morealso said the same thing abut Jane.
And he was right.
I to could tell that something about Jane was off.
And how she antagonized and berated poor Kenny in the truck, saying his late family thought of him as a monster, and that Clementine thought of him as a dead-man, was completely inappropriate, and angered me greatly.
She had the nerve to speak that way to a man who'd lost nearly everything and everyone he ever cared for, and who now was nearly an emotional cripple, that was such an indecent and unkind thing to do.
And I thus became completely disgusted with her character.
Comments
You're blatant disregard with the facts presented through the narrative throughout the story proves you are delusional. That isn't an insult. Its not an insult to call a fish a fish.
And as soon as Clem's interest conflicted with her interests Jane would kick her to the curb.
When has that ever been indicated? Clem straight up commands Jane to risk her life for someone Jane saw as unsavable she still does it. How much more conflicted could their interests get?
Compare that to Kenny refusing to help Lee from under a door for refusing to help Kenny bash a man's face in with a block of salt in front of his terrified daughter figure. And his refusal to help Lee look for Clem if you don't back every dumbass plan of his or beg him to help you.
Yeah, even Jane admit herself it was stupid and she shouldn't have lied. Doing that batshit crazy trick with a baby to save Clementine? I am not going to believe that at all. Kenny will not endanger Clem and AJ no matter what. Maybe to others IF they endanger Clem or AJ. But to hurt Clem? Verbally, I guess... out of his frustration and exhaustion. But killing? NO. The endings with Kenny confirm that.
Why do you people who prefer Jane over him always saying that? Isn't it quite clear that Kenny is willing to save the kids. It's what makes him carry on, you know. Not for the sake of survival only. Sheesshh...
Well Jane did it to get Clem to leave Kenny because she saw Kenny as a threat to Clem's safety if she stays with him. This doesn't necessarily mean that Jane thinks Kenny would intentionally hurt Clem. Kenny hurts people when he's not thinking; when he judgement is clouded by vengeance or rage. Kenny intentionally hurts Clem verbally out of rage at the death of Sarita and unintentionally hurts her physically if she gets in the way of his enacting his vengeance towards Arvo. Kenny is an okay guy when he's in control of himself but does really fucked up stuff when his emotions get the better of him. Jane wanted Clem to see exactly how bad it can potentially get, but when her ploy got out of hand, she failed to put a stop to it.
She kicked her sister to the side and she was willing to kick Sarah to the side. As soon as Clem wasn't useful to Jane it would happen again.
She didn't kick her sister to the side. Her sister was trapped on a roof with her and there was no way to get her to jump to the other side. So it was either stay with her sister and die to the oncoming hoard of zombies together with her or jump to the other side to save herself. She was willing to let Sarah die because she thought that it was the same situation and it would have been if Clem hadn't slapped Sarah at the last minute and dragged her up.
You have Jane all wrong. She doesn't abandon people when they're useless to her. She abandons people when they're a threat to her safety to help them. And even then she still tries to save them when Clem is involved, like when she helps Clem and Rebecca escape the hoard and when she jumps down to try to save Sarah at Clem's request. In fact, one of the first things that she does when she comes back is tell Clem to try to get Kenny to stop being such a crazy asshole. it isn't until his treatment of Arvo and his refusal to listen to the group that she starts to consider him a lost cause.
Is everyone forgetting how hard it might be for someone to recount how a baby had just been killed? Possibly torn apart by zombies? That wouldn't be a very nice thing to have to recount at the best of times, never mind after someone just called bullshit on you saying ti was an accident and shouting you're a baby killer (which at the time is all Clem and Kenny had to go on as to what had happened).
I'm a little mixed up by this ending, actually.
I know that Kenny was not the best guy each time, but I loved him. And call me stupid if you want, but in the heat of the game, I didn't think the baby was alive. If anything, I was unsure.
But when I was given the choice, I thought I had no other choice than to shot Kenny, 'coz he had lost it.
So I did it. And when the baby cried out... well... Jane disappointed me and I loved her. But the fact she made all that up to prove her point. I get why she did it, but I couldn't help myself but leave her behind, 'coz I felt kinda betrayed.
I might be insane for thinking this but hey, I was willing to keep Kenny AND Jane by my side. And the fact that it was obvious that Kenny was beyond repair, that he basically thanked me for killing him, helped me throught it. Untill I understood the entire picture.
I know he was an angry asshole from time to time (well, to be honest, most of the time this season), but I always wanted to pull him back whenever I was getting the chance. And I think in the second game I'm doing, I'm gonna keep him, because I also wanna see what he's capable of becoming in season 3.
And that's also why I was willing to let him take care of the baby : for his sanity. And I knew at the time that Clem was the only one who could save him from himself. I don't know, I'm still a found of Kenny in some way, even thought he's probably just a sick bast*rd to most of players.
Time and retry will prove me wrong or right, but it's just my opinion. I'm not asking anyone to share it. If that would have been entirely up to me, I would have find a way to keep them both.
(I saw someone talk about Bonnie. I know it's not the subject, but I'm angry at her and I didn't really like her, didn't trust her. I don't know yet what happens if you choose to help Luke instead of covering for him, but what she said to me afterwards was awful. Clem was always there to try and do whatever she could to help others.
"It must be good to be a pretty girl, nobody expects you to do anything". And WHO crawled under that gate to get water in the other episode, you b*tch ? When there was a walker behind and I nearly get Clem killed ?
So she might have let Clem speak for herself, but she was mean for no reason, when Clem tried nothing but to help Luke, maybe not in the way Bonnie wanted, but she helped. It's not my fault she can't get over her crush's death !
And I know it happened with Kenny too, but at least he didn't steal our supplies to run away with AJ. And he didn't give Arvo a gun (when I saw that, I was sure something was going to go down), which was the worst thing to do, neither did he said, looking to me while I was dying on the ground "Just leave her".
Well. One again, just my opinion.)
I kinda think the way you did... that's why i chose to stay at Wellington and stop continuing my Clem's journey with Kenny, not because I hate him, though. He's so unstable and it's time to end the adventure while it's too risky. It makes more sense to me (maybe I should tell you it was the saddest ending I've seen from season 2). BUT Shooting Kenny is way TOO much for me. Besides, I didn't want to wet Clem's hands by killing someone especially that man.
STILL not a good reason to test Kenny that way to prove a point. And you see yourself, it was out of her control. It was a stupid idea. I knew that just as soon when Jane convinced Clem to 'stay away out of it'. A true survivor wouldn't do that. Clem CARES about Kenny which why she cried when about to shoot Kenny. Jane doesn't understand that except making Clem saves her by killing.
I remember when in dreams, my Clem asked Lee "have you ever been that angry?" (until you decided to kill someone), Lee answered: Yes, once. Even Lee (a passionate and your typical good guy) himself ever snapped like that. When you lost things along the way, you change. That's what happen to Kenny. He snapped. If Jane was MORE sympathetic and more considerate to know that, she won't mouth off Kenny's family. She won't hurt his feeling.
I know that people may think choosing Jane over Kenny is like choosing to be rational over emotional. But it's still debatable. The way I see it, it's like choosing to be more hopeful not cynical, to be compassionate not egoistical.
and a good one too
I chose to leave Kenny right after he killed Jane. I also didn't want to stain Clem's hands with the blood of another friend, but I couldn't stay with Kenny after that. I agree, though, that the Wellington ending was the most emotional and is the only one I would accept as an end to Clementine's story. Far better than the "alone" ending that I got where it wasn't even clear which direction I went.
I think Jane understood that Clem cares for Kenny and she knows how hard it was for Clem to have to do that. So I doubt her original plan was to have Clem shoot Kenny. She just wanted Clem to see how unstable he had become to convince Clem to go with her and leave Kenny behind. But yeah, it was poorly thought out and poorly executed. Made me lose a lot of respect for her.
The difference between Kenny and Lee, I feel, is that Kenny's fits of rage were starting to become more of a chronic problem than a one-time occurrence. After each time he lashes out, he promises that he'll do better and that he'll try to control himself next time but things just kept escalating with him. Kind of an abusive husband/father type scenario.
Choosing Jane over Kenny before her little stunt would be choosing rationality over emotion. Afterwards, you're just choosing which brand of crazy you can stand to deal with.
yeah, that's what I was talking about. :-)
Gosh, I miss that old guy Kenny. it was so emotional at Wellington. He seems more peaceful but at the same time looks lonelier than ever. It may be the best for Clem and AJ, but I kinda wish I left with him. But I couldn't do that. I want to see the kids finally alright. Free from Jane's twisted ideology and Kenny's rage.
Can you really GUARANTEE that? How could you be so sure? How do you know that? The answer is: you don't. You talk out of your rage over Kenny.
I am sorry but I can't picture Kenny would kill Clem if Clem accidentally lost the baby. maybe he would go berserk only verbally. Like he did with Sarita's death. But lose it on Clem like it was on Jane? LOL.
Your second paragraph is really a mere speculation of what Kenny thinks.. Kenny is a loving man. Unfortunately the fierce type. If what you said in first paragraph is true about him thought that Wellington means safety, than he would do anything to make Clem and AJ safe in Wellington. It is a fierce love. But it's love regardless. In the game there are two hugs done between Kenny and Clem.
He really DO cares about Clem and AJ. It wasn't only about him.
I am sorry, which ending? :-)
The ending in which she clearly refuses that strange family to get in unless Clem let them or what?
That's true. It was a deadly fight. It was a fight to death, each one only defend themselves. Kenny or Jane. The thing is who has the righteous reason to kill the other aside from self-defense? Jane to prove a point or Kenny that went snapped because someone toyed with a human's live?
The tricks that Jane did STILL unnecessary. You didn't need to be killed just to prove a point. It is stupid. Jane herself said it was a stupid idea. I don't know if the word 'manipulation' fits right. I said it was just plain stupidity.
another blind hate speculation
Yeah, none of those endings would happen if it isn't your psycho lone-wolf Jane played with someone's emotion. Everyone doesn't see her stupidity because they are also being delusional. Jane is hot, badass, rational, cool, unemotional, blah blah... In the end, if it's not a stupidity to makes Kenny go berserk like that, then I don't know what it is.
"C'mon Clem.. I can't do this alone. Is that what you wanna hear?" said someone who finally being honest when at their weakest point. Kinda late for honesty, Jane.
If you really hate Kenny then don't follow it to arguments. Suck it up and live with your decision peacefully. If you are not taking the game seriously why you even bother being rude and all to people who choose not to kill Kenny? :-)
First of all you are responding to something I said days ago. I have completely checked out of this entire argument. 2nd of all I have never once said I hated Kenny. In fact I have said on several occasions that I like Kenny.
The only people i've been rude to are those who are too stubborn to accept other's opinions. In fact I have called Jane fans out on their bullshit.
not really. I liked kenny a lot in season one. back when he was at least sorta useful. but ultimately he is a hothead and a coward... which makes him sorta useless in the long run. he ditches his friends freaks out other people, and kills useful people.
I was so glad that tell tale let me kill Kenny.
I agree with you 100%.
I'm impressed of how you were able to illustrate your arguement in such a sound and logical way.
Very nice!
Kenny also said the same thing abut Jane.
And he was right.
I to could tell that something about Jane was off.
And how she antagonized and berated poor Kenny in the truck, saying his late family thought of him as a monster, and that Clementine thought of him as a dead-man, was completely inappropriate, and angered me greatly.
She had the nerve to speak that way to a man who'd lost nearly everything and everyone he ever cared for, and who now was nearly an emotional cripple, that was such an indecent and unkind thing to do.
And I thus became completely disgusted with her character.
Kenny later apologized for how he treated Clementine.
So yeah, Domingez doesn't have a leg to stand on!
But that's what abusers usually do... They apologize in order to keep those they abuse from leaving.
"I'm sorry baby. You know how I get. It won't happen again."
X time later: "I'm sorry baby. You know how I get. It won't happen again."
Amen!
I've seen and dealt with abusive people my whole life.
I know how abusive people work.
However, I sensed a genuineness about Kenny.
After all, if Kenny was purely selfish and abusive, then why would he plead that Clementine and Alvie be aloud to stay in Wellington, even if it meant he couldn't?
And you have to remember that sometimes, people say things they don't mean cause of being hurt or angry, and consequently have hurt others.
I have, and I'm sure you have to.
We've all hurt other people.
There's not a person who has ever lived, that can claim they haven't.
Does that make us bad people?
Not necessarily.
What is the determining answer to that question, is how we choose to live our lives, and how we choose to treat others.
And you have to remember also, that people who are in a deep state of grief, especially if it because of the death of a loved one, often become angry and short tempered.
And can remain that way for a long time, sometimes years.
I know cause I've been there.
Years ago I lost a couple of ones that I deeply loved.
And in my grief, I became exactly like Kenny, angry about every little thing.
Oftens times going off on a fowl-mouthed tangent!
And I'm so grateful, that during that time, both my family and friends did not give up on me.
They were there for me, even when I was at my worst.
That's something you can't buy!
Thanks. When I'm explaining a point, I always try to do it as clear and as complete as I can. Especially when it's not in my mother tongue. (I'm french).
Getting back on topic. It's not just about them, actually.
I didn't realized it, until someone pointed it out but...
The player might guess the baby's alive, but what about Clem and Kenny ?
What if I had let Kenny kill Jane, and AJ never cried ? They had every reason to assume he was dead. Why would they look for him in that case ?
The most frustrating is that I liked her. I was convinced she could be a good ally (she taught Clem a few things, after all !). But with this ending, no matter what, I couldn't take her with me, I didn't have the heart as she was the one who pushed me to kill my friend.
Because despite of all that's happened, Kenny was the one character I was hoping that would keep going. And that's why, when I'm playing again, even if he doesn't go with me, I'll allow Kenny to live. 'Coz I know with him alive, I'm pretty sure I'm seeing him again.
Well (I'm not making this a polarising thing or anything), Jane had gone through some bad stuff too. Dragging her sister around for instance, then having to leave her to die. It didn't sound like she'd been with too many good groups either, but whether that was her fault for not integrating or not is conjecture. Didn't they hint that she had had sex with some guy at Howes as well? Considering that she shot the guy in the crotch on the way out I'm assuming she hadn't really wanted to (possible rape?).
My point is Kenny's loss is very obvious just to look at him. He looks broken (never mind the bashed in face). It also help a lot that we met Katja, Duck and Sarita, saw them and got to know them. Jane, we never met anyone from her past and well who was it who said it, Luke? That her bad experiences tempered her. Kenny did insult her and try to prick her in the car saying she was nothing, it was only because he knew nothing about her he couldn't hit the mark.
This was one of the hardest endings I've ever had to experience, and it wearies me simply put. Really I wish Luke had survived (really I wish Lee had survived!), Luke really could have been the bridge that kept the group together or longer. If Mike and Bonnie had just waited till morning...
This really was too hard.