Why I think Kenny shouldnt have come back
So this is pretty long so yeah (There's a summary at the bottom)
In season 1 I didnt like Kenny but I liked his character, he was divisive, morally questionable and had a good arc of failure and redemption. His interactions ranged more for any other character and in the end he got a nice sacrifice. They even left it ambigious so fans could imagine he was still alive and happy.
However in season 2 this character returned (By the seems of it) mainly due to fan pressure rather than actually having more of a story or more to add, anyway here are my thoughts on why it was a poor decision
Repeating ground
This season Kenny went through more or less the same stuff all over again. We meet him as a fairly good man with questionable morals who will do what it takes to protect his family, he then does everything he can to save them, he dosnt and they die leading to him becoming aggressive and irrational and then eventually toughens up and saves the day at the end.
This is nice and all but its literally the same thing as last season , from a character view doing the same stuff again is just not a good start, Kenny literally ends up in the exact same point as the start of the season, for his character at least this season this may as well not have happened. Rather than just retread old ground why not have him advance as a character and actually go off the deep end fully or have one of the other characters continue instead? Or at least have him learn from season 1. This arguabley happens in some endings but even then it seems bizzare, The writers were hinting at Kenny going to far but they never actually got the courage to have him do it and stuck to another redemption
Clems relationship with Kenny
I get clem is more of her own character than Lee but it was pretty frustrating how this season she seemed to have this extreme bond with him, we never saw any evidence of clem at all bonding with Kenny, yes something could have occured offscreen but in season 1 they have a brief interaction when they met and after this Kenny simply speaks harshly at her when she asks about duck in ep 3. The fact Kenny can refuse to help look for clem based on his relationship with Lee suggests that at his core he honestly dosnt really care about her.
That said yes they knew each other and them meeting would be a happy occasion, However in ep 3, 4, 5 they seem extremely close and this seems compltely canon, throughout the whole game Clem can respond to all the other characters in varying ways, for example Luke and Sarah can often be met with haughty responses and in cases like Sarah they often havnt even done anything to offend clem. However with Kenny you have to agree with everything in pretty much all options bar perhaps one which sort of half agrees with someone else, A good example is in ep 4, despite Kenny screaming in her face clem can only stand there and give placid responses.
Yes characters in these games do care about others but for such a diverse character to become loved by the protaganist is annoying especially as it reduces choice even more than usual, I agree with what everyone was saying in ep 5 but at most clem could only half agree. The fact the relationship seemed almost a recreation of the father/daughter thing of Lee and clem was pretty out of the blue again due to their previous lack of reaction with eachother and the fact that unlike with clem in season 1 there was actually quite a few ways to dislike Kenny yet you were forced to be with him and agree with him again
A final note on this overattachment comes in ep 5, in every one of Kenny's endings clem cries (canon) even ones where she simply decides to stay with Kenny. Clem dosnt shed a tear for anyone else over the entire season.
Not leaving someone you know> People you know dying
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**Overshadowing other characters ****
This season Kenny seemed to take away all the spotlight for many of the episodes. The most notable being in harms way and no going back. This is true for all the characterS but it will be easier to sort out the main ones.
Sarita
Probably the most obvious, she wasnt so much a character but a plot device for Kenny's development. She was almost identical to Kat and died purely to develop Kenny. It happened so fast that she had next to no bind with the main character at all. When she dies the reaction of the fan isnt "Oh no Sarita died how horrible for her" Its "Oh no Sarita died how horrible for Kenny"
Rather than this wouldnt have it been more interesting to see how the situation would have gone if Kenny had died and Sarita had become bitter and cold towards everyone and blame them. Rather then just do the same thing with her all over again.
The Cabin group
The entire groups possible bond with clem was cut off the moment Kenny appeared, him coming back so early meant that just as they started revealing their personalities Kenny appeared and most players (quite rightly) became disinterested in the cabin group completely as they had a much better alternative to a group of new people. Perhaps more should have been done beforehand as at this poitn the writers clearly expected you to care about them and possibly choose them over Kenny. However it happened to soon.
Rewrites
I also believe Kenny's comeback on such a big level was decided late on as several of this seasons characters seem to have quick blunt fates, that often cut of arcs quickly for bizzare reasons, this leads to the conclusion these characters were re purposed and Kenny seems like the logical conclusion for this. Origannly I feel Kenny wasnt meant to come back till later or maybe only have a brief appearance. With us simply meeting Walter at the lodge.
Pete and Nick
Pete was pretty popular despite his quick appearance, due to his friendly but stern grandad deal along with his interesting bond with Nick. However this ends with Pete getting bit by the walkers he kept telling people to be careful of because hes ran out of bullets after two rounds... Personally I could see Pete doing a lot of what Kenny did in a sense of being clems new father figure. I also could easily see Nick trying to help Sarah in the horde as reckless behaviour is in his character and therefore Nick is bit and the cut off arm choice and Petes reaction is simaler to Kenny's. Giving both character more notable roles
****Carlos ****
For me Carlos has even more evidence of this, mainly due to his ep 2 character, Luke hints at his anger, Sarah seems a bit scared of him and when he meets Carver he spits in his face and acts aggressive. Compare this to meek ep 3 Carlos who does whatever he's told including hitting his own child and then wanting no revenge for it. yes Carlos got a beating in between but such a bizarre change seems weird. Carlos practically vanished all episode. For me again I could easily him grabbing the radio off clem to keep her safe and the choice being to help in or restrain Sarah (who had shown to run to her father whatever the dangers). Also his increasing aggression and Sarah;s fear of him would have been a new twist on the story rather than both Carlos and Sarah being killed quickly by walkers rather pointlessly.
Writers bias
My last problem is that the writers themselves seemed blind to the diversity Kenny's character brought, in a playing dead the expressed surprise that so many people shot Kenny as they liked him so much, that shows that they clearly thought everyone in the fanbase loved Kenny which is a bit offputting. That said I also cant blame them as they also reference in the same video that they heard plenty of "Whens Kenny coming back"threads which likely bullied them into bringing him back so quickly. I mean after ep 1 the number of angry Kenny fans was unbelievable the one comes to mind is several were pissed off as they thought they were trolled as Nick looked like Kenny.....
A best example of the writing being biased to Kenny is ep 5. I will admit ep 2 was a bit of fanserive but albeit this was his return and by the end they got kenny pretty right as did ep 3 and 4. (though why Kenny was so central to delivering a baby just as hed been with his wife when she gave birth was a bit odd)
In ep 5 it seems like most of the others are against Kenny which they are and again hes doing moral questionable things while still being loveable and loyal to clem and the way. However the writing towards the end seems to demand that Kenny's right and everyone else is wrong,
For starters everyone disagreeing with Kenny has to be proven bad and wrong, I'm not against this however the fact EVERY character does something not only bad but slightly out of character too just seems a little offputting.
Mike and Bonnie - Probably the easiest these two run off and leave everyone, I'm okay with this but the fact that they steal absolutely everything and the truck just seems out of character for particularly Mike who was shown to be nothing but compassionate so far
Arvo - Yes sure Arvo wanted clem and co dead, however so far hed shown no passion for violence and him just shooting clem like that especially when she surrenders is a bit extreme and seeing as how clem barely reacts to that massive wound for the rest of the episode seems to suggest it was put in purely to justify everything Kenny did to Arvo as he's "evil"
Jane - I get janes decision is due to frustration at clem not seeing what Kenny is turning into and the fact shes a bit loco herself however that baby plan to rile up someone dangerous is completely out of character for someone who before this liked to stay out of the infighting, not to mention that she dosnt try to scream AJ is alive if shes about to be stabbed to death
Again its more the fact these all happen not just one that makes it seem odd.
Endings
After the fight the bias becomes unreal, Clem gets pissed of at Jane for hiding the baby but not at Kenny for murdering someone for next to no reason. We have a clear choice to leave jane but not to leave Kenny.
If you choose to leave Kenny through dialogue he just lets you go... seriously he lets the only two people he cares about wander into a snowstorm alone and hes happy about it thats just completley out of charcacter
In the Kenny endings everything just seems over the top happy he's a bullet point list of everything. Its just not fitting of the world Once again alone these wouldnt be noticeable but all together...
- Its sunny and not snowing - Seriously they went even further north, where it was a blizzard, now theres a bit of light snow here and there, winter had just started in season 2.
- Wellingtons real - Once again Kenny gets proved right, wouldnt have it been more dark to just see ruins and realise it was just a pipe dream, you could still be with Kenny but up north cold and with no plans.
- Wellingtons behaviour - So they give out food despite being low on food? And willing to take a kid who eats almost as much as an adult and a baby that requires special care
- Kenny is fine with the kids staying - Uh, hes unhappy with her being with the cabin group why is he suddenly fine with her being at this new place he hasnt even seen/
- Clem cries even though no dies (already covered this but still)
Okay so again I'm sorry it was so long but I just had to put all these thoughts somewhere, so does anyone agree/disagree about any of this. It would be easier if you quote it so I know which part you're referring to.
Edit: Summary
- Has the same role as in season 1
- His character dosnt develop to anything this season, he literally starts and finishes at the same point
- He overshadows everyone else
- Clem has a forced bond with him
- His endings are over the top and not fitting of the world
- The writers were pretty biased towards him
Comments
K
I just skimmed this (sorry :P), but yes I agree it probably would have been better without Ken returning.
Take my like
I agree with you, i love Kenny. He is a great character, however i feel like his placement into this was hastily done, and left so many plot holes that it wasn't worth it. I think Telltale had a idea that they were going to use Kenny again, from what i know they're were two Ally Death scenes with Kenny. One left no doubt he was dead, the other is what we got.
I liked characters that were ruined for Kenny's involvement. I really enjoyed Carlos's character. I was really disappointed on how they changed him between Episodes 2-3.
eh its okay, If nothing else I'll just quote this in arguments rather than just repeat myself
Kenny apologizes that he failed Clementine when he kills Jane/Clementine leaves him for the baby, so while Kenny just letting Clementine go with AJ is a bit OOC, after remembering what Kenny said about Clementine being able to handle herself better than a few adults together, I felt the decision for Kenny to just let Clementine leave wasn't as OOC as people are making it out to be.
I had a strong feeling that Kenny would come back in EP5, because in both of his final scenes, you can't ever confirm his death. It was only fitting that Clementine would be the one to end his life (if the player chose to).
Reserved for later...
Kenny being in Season 2 felt so out of place, I'm pretty sure it was just fan service. The one thing I can't stand about Kenny being in Season two is being forced to be his friend.
Again though in my opinion it is out of character , They arnt even safe at that point he just lets them walk off, Honestly him and Jane letting clem leave is odd as both are overly attached to her.
That being said I do acknowledge in his endings Kenny does acknowledge himself as a threat to clem (despite most of the audience dosnt) and I will say that is probably the only development he gets this season. So on that level I agree with you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVHvyUFlrik
Your argument is invalid.
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Now, seriously, I will adress the points about the endings. Maybe I will edit this post to cover everything else-maybe-but I just don´t have the time rigth now.
She can get pissed. There a lot of dialogue options where Clem can express anger at Kenny for killing Jane. And you can leave Kenny.
Even Clem is agaist him, and Kenny fells wortless and that she be better withouth him. Propably, in that ending, as soon as Clem is out there he will kill himself.
Okay, you got me there, but is sunny in all the endings, not just in Kenny´s endings.
So because you don´t like a character you think it could be better to ignore everything that suggested Wellington was real and make it nothing but a rumur, or to see Wellington destroyed? Okay.
Lol, nope. They are not low on food, they just have overpopulation problems.
Is not that Kenny is fine with it, but that he wants the kids to stay. Wellington can make everything he wanted for Clem and Aj-safety-come true. It was not a matter how him trusting the people at Wellington or anything like that, just it was Clem and AJ´s best chance.
"Please, take the kids, just take the kids. I need then to be safe, and his safe in there, I know that. Just... Ask somebody, please? They won´t make it out here."
So that Clementine cries Kenny-the last person she knows for the days were she was still happy (with Lee)- ask her to abandon him, in a place she doesn´t know, with people she doesn´t know, with new responsabilites and haivng to take care of AJ is somehow out of character to you?
I don´t get it.
Yeah, you would think in both cases of Jane/Kenny they would at least try to make a case for themselves instead of just letting Clem go. I would write some TTG defence gibberish, but It really was just a strange decision to make Kenny and Jane just let Clem leave their lives like they hardly knew her.
The endings and bias were more the final thing on top of everything else, again as I said each indivdual point dosnt seem too bad its the fact they are all present
Also what I meant is after finding AJ, the canon dialogue suggests clem is pissed of at Jane, in the Kenny one the anger vanishes and Kenny justify s his crimes and clem agrees in all but one scenario. Also again Kenny is given justification for something he did
Because she dosnt even shed a tear at anyone else... not Omid, not Luke not Sarah. but she cries when she decides to STAY with Kenny I mean seriously thats just out of character as like I said her attachment to Kenny is a bit biazzare to begin with.
Once again this stuff was all at the bottom as it is the least important, the retracking and overshadoing are the main points
L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
I was rather annoyed that Clementine was angry at Jane, but if you listen to her reasoning, you can side up with her.
Kenny is a fan-favorite and a writer's pet. I can't think of a long-standing series that doesn't have one of those.
Interesting post. I went through it nodding in some parts, shaking my head in others. I think you make some great points.
I do think you massively underestimate the impact that a familiar face would have on Clem. They don't have to have established Clem and Kenny being best buddies for her to be happy and emotional at his return. Kenny was Lee's companion even when they didn't see eye to eye and Clem adored Lee. Given Clem has lost everyone who has cared for her including Christa, seeing Kenny would be huge for her. If anything, I'm not sure my Clem reacted strongly enough. Familiarity counts for a lot and Kenny is the person Clem has known the longest on the entire planet. He is her oldest friend and one from a very young and more vulnerable time in her life. I think even if the guy was a maniac in season 2, that attachment would still be incredibly strong.
I agree that there were writing problems towards the end and, yes, completely with you on Jane acting out of character. That just didn't work for me. And yes maybe they wanted more people to go with Kenny. But they did a very good job at making him seem genuinely dangerous too and that seemed to be intentional. They gave Clem a huge amount of opportunities to say so (again, making the end a bit weird). So they could have been banking on historical attachment alone but I do think the divisive nature was exactly what they were going for. Personally, I feel it backfired in the end but I don't think they wanted us all to love Kenny even if they were surprised by how many shot him. I liked Kenny even at the end but I wasn't going to let him murder someone.
The choice to shoot him dead was too black and white for my liking but there was more to it than just liking Kenny or Jane. Allowing a murder shouldn't have become a popularity contest.
I agree with your assessment of the endings. I got the alone ending because I shot Kenny so he wouldn't murder and then it was revealed that Jane was uncharacteristically batshit crazy and so left her. Saw the Kenny ending and it looked lovely and sweet and had great closure but, yes, seems to completely ignore this whole killing Jane business. I've said it already too many times here but the endings simply didn't work for me.
In terms of rewrites and the intended role of other characters, we'll probably never know. I thought most characters were handled very well exactly as it played out, personally.
No Paul Monroe is Jesus
Dude...season two is over. Time to let it go.
Good points, Alan.
All i hear from people that don't like Kenny is "hurr durr kenny and clem's relantionship is forced cuz i dun liuke kenny aoskspodkabao potato"
It's okay to hate him, i understand that, but... this is simply bullshit.
Agreed with most of the things you said, have my upvote !
I don't have time to read a large post so I'm just going to adress your ending points:
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There are people who love Kenny, who like him, and those who hate him. This is perfetly fine and happens with all the characters.
But dude, some of your points agaist the Kenny endings-mostly 2, 3, 4- doesn´t make much sense.
Seriously? I think-I have not replayed that scene in few days, so sue me if I at mistaken- you can call it out for his mistakes. Saying that he is crazy, dangerous, that Jane did not have to die, etc...
That´s... pretty much what happens with Jane. I don´t think that is showing a bias.
Well, we are not show much after Omid gets killed. Clem looks shocked, like she is unable to process what she is seeing. I think she broke out in the sixten mooths we just skip. Also, when Clem talks about Omid to Kenny she looks close to breaking down, so she definitivily not brusing off his death.
She was already crying before making the decision to stay with Kenny.
I don´t think her attachement to Kenny is bizzare, to be honest. Like I said, Kenny is the last person she knows for the days were she was still hapy (with Lee) and that we are not show their interactions in season 1 doesn´t mean they never talked. I mean, Lilly is never really show interacting with Clem, but does anybody denied she cared about her? Also, there are signs that she cared. She keep the drawing she made of his family, Also, on the side of Kenny, I may be misremenbering, but in Season 1 he says he cares about Clem as much as he does for his own family. Also, he says that Lee and Clem are welcome to come with him and his family when he is planing of leaving the motor inn. You can say that is more for his friendship with Lee, okay, but its still important. So, yes, I think that the attachement she has to Kenny is natural and that the siuation in the Wellington endings could naturally lead her to cry, knowing that if she left him Kenny was going to die, knowing that staying with him may do more harm that anything else.
And? I wrote that I will edit the post to cover everything else when I have the time. I just wanted to get that out of the way first.
I think the ratings of seas 2 were down so they've added a familiar face, and i think they had to choose between lily and kenny and kenny beeing the more favorite after his sacrifice so there he was
Bullshit.
Look:
Yeah and thats why she took the knife in her chest in my game... and peace was restored, no more leave that one behind and this one. Personally i think Jane will kill the ginger man in her ending because of issues in her past she eventuallu wants to kill every man if she gets the chance
I can't have been alone in fully expecting Kenny to come back, can I? Maybe it's just the determinate end I got for him in season 1 but I didn't ever think he was dead and assumed the reason for that was so that they had the option to bring him back. Unlike Christa actually and many seem to expect her back for season 3 (maybe she will be back after people wanting her but I fully thought she was dead the whole time). Kenny coming back was not remotely a surprise to me and it felt right. That's not to say they got everything right with him because he did fracture the group (seems to have been the intention the whole time) but I felt it was right to see him return.
Nope jesus looks exactly like jesus and is 1000x more badass
Great post..
I love kenny, I think he's a great character, but I agree he was forced on us this season...
I have many issues with S2, I don't know what happened tbh but everything just felt forced, again I love kenny but it was kenny who ran S2 pretty much all the way through, I wasn't happy with the turning of kenny into a complete nut job....... no actually thats wrong, I was fine with it, I just wasnt comfortable with its forced nature tbh...
Everything seemed to revolve around him all season, the other characters weren't even looked at (or so it seems) and they were just disposed of like cheap side shows (which I suppose is an accurate assessment actualy)...
Characters that seemed would play a strong part in the story just got "cut", pete/nick sarah....
I find S2 very strange tbh, thismis how it looks to me...
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Ok lets start s2..
Oops looks like we dont have the man power for TWD and TWOU and all the pies we have our fingers in.... cut everything !,! Bring kenny in and force the story anywhere we need to get to ep5.. ////
I duno.... S2 just doesnt breath the quality, the attention to detail and emersion that S1....
Very strange
You make a lot of valid points with Kenny's role in Season 2. I do agree that Kenny's return and role in Season 2 felt more like fan service than a credible narrative experience.
From a narrative standpoint, it's clear that the story favours Kenny and his motivations above all other characters. No matter what happens, you're stuck with him and forced to be his friend, even if there are opportunities to express your dislike towards him. His story arc and personality is basically Season 1 all over again, only this time he's more aggressive and hostile.
I'd be comfortable with Kenny's position in Season 2 if I were able to shake off the feeling that there are too many points where Kenny is always presented in a favourable light regardless of his actions, almost as if we were supposed to like or admire him, even as he takes someone prisoner and beats him on occasion. I get that it's from a child's mind-set that she might be idolising Kenny after idolising Lee, but since we're not given the choice to abandon or outright hate Kenny altogether, the friendship between Clementine and Kenny ends up feeling unnatural and forced.
Again, I'm poiting out in season 1 Kenny can refuse to help clem because he dosnt like lee, that shows at the core Kenny didnt really care about Clementine then, if he did he would always go help her regardless of whatever Lee did
Lol, nope. Kenny is the definition of badass.
Kenny is honestly one of the worst hand to hand fighters in the series jesus is one of the best if not THE best. kenny would be down in 10 seconds if they fought
Your post was an interesting read, I agree with some parts and disagree with others. I do agree that Kenny goes through a similar arc as in Season 1, however I thought his character was actually better written and presented than it was in Season 1, so I didn't really mind that. I do think it's a shame though that other characters seemed to get lacking character development compared to Kenny. Too many of them were just...there, and then they died. I still enjoyed Season 2 very much, but next season I'd rather have a smaller group of survivors and more attention given to each one of them. And while I agree that in Season 1 Clementine and Kenny don't interact much, I don't think it's strange that she's attached to him, he's the only living survivor from the original group she was in, and he'd remind her of Lee. I picked 'Hug Kenny' with no hesitation, even though my Lee wasn't always on friendly terms with him.
eh kenny jane larry and lee could all team up against paul and still lose