Well, when a large amount of people whose profession it is to investigate what is and is not true about the world say that something is true, we generally hold that to be true. And the consensus among scientists is that people do not experience agency over their sexual orientation.
The possibility of environmental factors influencing the development of sexual identity does not make it any more "voluntary" than say, developing an allergy due to environmental factors. You might also consider that not even identical twins aren't 100% physiologically identical, due to the influence of epigenetics and such. Furthermore, if lack of gendered socialization is what causes and shapes sexual preferences, then it would still be very unlikely for identical twins to have difference sexual orientations if they are raised in the same household by the same parents.
And, no, you can't choose whether or not you are an alcoholic. You can choose to take steps to combat your alcoholism and limit the damage that it can do to your life, but if you're an alcoholic, you're an alcoholic. Just like you can bleach your skin or force yourself to engage in heterosexual relationships, but that won't change your race or your sexual orientation. And yes, you can't be born gay, but neither can you be born straight, since sexual interests don't develop until much later in life. Yet I'm sure you'd agree that discriminating against someone because they're straight would be a terrible thing to do.
Just because a large amount of people say something is true, doesn't make it true. I am more inclined to believe that less gender socializat… moreion in early childhood and preadolescence is what causes and shapes same-sex romantic preferences. I believe there are environmental factors that have a significant impact on a child's sexual identity, but it isn't genetic. If homosexuality were genetic, then hypothetically if one identical twin carried this gene, then so would the other. And obviously not every single set of identical twins are gay even if one of twin is, so that argument doesn't hold a lot of ground. Furthermore, if homosexuality is decided by genetic coding, like alcoholism is in some families, that doesn't mean you have to be gay, just as a person doesn't have to be an alcoholic. But anyways, this is all hypothetically speaking, and there isn't any real evidence of a homosexual causing gene.
I am saying you are born with the skin c… [view original content]
True enough, but I'd like to weigh in here and point out that there isn't much about a person that is determined by a single genetic marker. Certain specific bioligical functions, like the shape of your red blood cells, or the amount of melanin your body decides your eyes need are about it. Almost everything about who we are genetically is decided by a large and complex stew of relevant markers interacting in complicated ways.
Also, yes, perhaps noone's born gay. But in that case noone's born straight either, and though I'm disincled to argue that some of the factors you mention have no relevance, they're not exactly very controllable factors. Your hypothetical alcoholic, should he be hypothetically raised in ancient egypt or at Plymouth Rock and be fed a pint of beer every morning as breakfast, has effectively had all level of choice in the situation removed before even being consciously aware that there was a choice at all. Whether this person was alcoholic as an infant isn't particularly relevant. They're going to have been an alcoholic for as long as makes a difference before they even begin to realize it.
One last thing, partially in your defense: @Domewing333, I'd like to mention that with the exception of a few overzealously entrenched holdouts on either side, the nature vs. nurture argument has largely been resolved in modern academia. Everybody seems to have acknowledged the obvious answer, which is that it is an outmoded way of regarding the subject of behavior at all. Little about the mind (inasmuch as we're not fumbling around in the dark, which we mostly are) isn't anymore not widely regarded to be attributable some mixture of both.
Just because a large amount of people say something is true, doesn't make it true. I am more inclined to believe that less gender socializat… moreion in early childhood and preadolescence is what causes and shapes same-sex romantic preferences. I believe there are environmental factors that have a significant impact on a child's sexual identity, but it isn't genetic. If homosexuality were genetic, then hypothetically if one identical twin carried this gene, then so would the other. And obviously not every single set of identical twins are gay even if one of twin is, so that argument doesn't hold a lot of ground. Furthermore, if homosexuality is decided by genetic coding, like alcoholism is in some families, that doesn't mean you have to be gay, just as a person doesn't have to be an alcoholic. But anyways, this is all hypothetically speaking, and there isn't any real evidence of a homosexual causing gene.
I am saying you are born with the skin c… [view original content]
I simply don't understand why people feel like a conscious effort needs to be made to make sure every little minority is prevalent in the story. An interesting character shouldn't rely on race/skin color or sexual orientation. I don't understand how sexual orientation nesescarily factors into anything. Walter was gay, but that isn't the reason why he was a good character by any measure. Even though he was gay, he acted like any other straight character.
I'm a 20 year old white guy and last season I didn't care that I was playing as a near middle aged black guy looking after a black little girl (or whatever race she is). I liked Lee based on who he was as a person (character traits). I couldn't care less what his skin color was.
Also I would just like to add that this post isn't really directed at the OP, but other users debating these things in this thread. Including characters from minority groups does not inherently make them interesting characters (or at least it really shouldn't).
Maybe that was unnecessary, I don't know.
I simply don't understand why people feel like a conscious effort needs to be made to make sure… more every little minority is prevalent in the story. An interesting character shouldn't rely on race/skin color or sexual orientation. I don't understand how sexual orientation nesescarily factors into anything. Walter was gay, but that isn't the reason why he was a good character by any measure. Even though he was gay, he acted like any other straight character.
I'm a 20 year old white guy and last season I didn't care that I was playing as a near middle aged black guy looking after a black little girl (or whatever race she is). I liked Lee based on who he was as a person (character traits). I couldn't care less what his skin color was.
Also I would just like to add that this post isn't really directed at the OP, but other users debating these things in this thread. Including characters from minority … [view original content]
Being able to relate to a character is one thing, but you shouldn't like a character simply based on what race they are or what sexual orientation they are.
Do gay people like Walter just because he is gay? Do black people like Lee just because he is black? Is Glenn a fan favorite among Asians? This line of thinking is just flawed in my opinion. Minorities shouldn't be thrust into the story for the simple fact of race identification or sexual orientation identification.
I could easily like and relate to Lee regardless of the fact that he was black and I am white. I could easily relate and sympathize with Walter even though he was gay and I am straight.
i'm black and i love lee not just because he's black(which is awesome) but also because he's a well done character. I don't know about walter and i'm not asian so i don't know but i think glenn is a favorite among asians, at least from what i've seen online of people cosplaying.
Being able to relate to a character is one thing, but you shouldn't like a character simply based on what race they are or what sexual orien… moretation they are.
Do gay people like Walter just because he is gay? Do black people like Lee just because he is black? Is Glenn a fan favorite among Asians? This line of thinking is just flawed in my opinion. Minorities shouldn't be thrust into the story for the simple fact of race identification or sexual orientation identification.
I could easily like and relate to Lee regardless of the fact that he was black and I am white. I could easily relate and sympathize with Walter even though he was gay and I am straight.
I'm pretty solidly in the demographic majority as a straight white male, and I can't really speak for anyone else, but I'd just like to mention that Glenn is my favorite character on the show, at least in part because I find him very relatable.
i'm black and i love lee not just because he's black(which is awesome) but also because he's a well done character. I don't know about walte… morer and i'm not asian so i don't know but i think glenn is a favorite among asians, at least from what i've seen online of people cosplaying.
That's all I'm asking for. Like the characters based on who they actually are as characters. Sharing ethnicity or sexual preference shouldn't inherently make a character more interesting.
Of course more Asians are going to cosplay as Glenn than otherwise.. I mean... its not like I could pull off a good Lee cosplay considering the fact that I'm pretty white.
i'm black and i love lee not just because he's black(which is awesome) but also because he's a well done character. I don't know about walte… morer and i'm not asian so i don't know but i think glenn is a favorite among asians, at least from what i've seen online of people cosplaying.
I'm pretty solidly in the demographic majority as a straight white male, and I can't really speak for anyone else, but I'd just like to mention that Glenn is my favorite character on the show, at least in part because I find him very relatable.
lol, no. I've ben kind of just jumping around whatever issues i can get my hands on. I've read maybe 35 of them in no particular order. I did get a chance to learn his fate though. Someone posted that page of issue 100 in a Carver-related thread recently, when the conversation went off on a general characters-having-their-heads-caved-in tangent. I do appreciate the warning though.
no i mean the people the cosplay glenn seem really happy that glenn exists and is in this popular franchise. people that aren't straight or white(no offense to you) want to see themselves because if they are in a show or movie they're usually horribly stereotyped or are just there for comic relief and not to be an actual character.
That's all I'm asking for. Like the characters based on who they actually are as characters. Sharing ethnicity or sexual preference shouldn'… moret inherently make a character more interesting.
Of course more Asians are going to cosplay as Glenn than otherwise.. I mean... its not like I could pull off a good Lee cosplay considering the fact that I'm pretty white.
lol, no. I've ben kind of just jumping around whatever issues i can get my hands on. I've read maybe 35 of them in no particular order. I di… mored get a chance to learn his fate though. Someone posted that page of issue 100 in a Carver-related thread recently, when the conversation went off on a general characters-having-their-heads-caved-in tangent. I do appreciate the warning though.
I don't know, my lily-white ex-girlfriend put together a pretty great Afro Samurai costume for Halloween one year. Everyone at the party who had any clue who Afro Samurai was got it immediately and she had 2 demographic hurdles to leap.
That's all I'm asking for. Like the characters based on who they actually are as characters. Sharing ethnicity or sexual preference shouldn'… moret inherently make a character more interesting.
Of course more Asians are going to cosplay as Glenn than otherwise.. I mean... its not like I could pull off a good Lee cosplay considering the fact that I'm pretty white.
I wouldn't mind to be honest, as long as its not a central theme, which I doubt it would be. Minorities could do with a bit more representation in the media.
Then those people are too hung up on race themselves. Enjoy the characters for who they are, not what they are. Who cares if they're black. Who cares if they're white. Who cares if they're straight or gay.
If I played a game with zero white people in it I wouldn't be like: "Omgggg where were all the white people?? I can't relate to this game without seeing someone with matching skin color!1!1!!"
You're acting like people need to be able to racially and sexually identify with other characters in order to find some sort of self security. You're acting like people need to feel represented. I really do not think this is a good line of thinking at all.
no i mean the people the cosplay glenn seem really happy that glenn exists and is in this popular franchise. people that aren't straight or … morewhite(no offense to you) want to see themselves because if they are in a show or movie they're usually horribly stereotyped or are just there for comic relief and not to be an actual character.
case in point
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyq61qQF9ik
granted that movie is kinda old(the 90s) that still happens today.
thats not what i'm saying at all. a game with no white people? high unlikely. those people aren't too hung up on race. race is important when you're not white. you have kids that grow up hating themselves and their race because their not white. because white is seen as right. so don't say people are too hung up race. you just don't get it man and i don't think you ever will. i would say some really nasty shit to you but i can't because i already for insulting asshats like you. oops.
Then those people are too hung up on race themselves. Enjoy the characters for who they are, not what they are. Who cares if they're black. … moreWho cares if they're white. Who cares if they're straight or gay.
If I played a game with zero white people in it I wouldn't be like: "Omgggg where were all the white people?? I can't relate to this game without seeing someone with matching skin color!1!1!!"
You're acting like people need to be able to racially and sexually identify with other characters in order to find some sort of self security. You're acting like people need to feel represented. I really do not think this is a good line of thinking at all.
No offense guys, but why are y'all getting all mad about the talk of a lesbian/gay/transgender/etc character being in the game? Y'all are acting like everyone in the world is straight and that's a normal thing. People just want to be recognized a little bit (those who are transgender or a different sexuality) and Telltale already has a great race diversity, it'd just be nice to have a character in there that they can relate to.
Racism and homophobia are terrible things for EXACTLY the same philosophical reason: people shouldn't treated differently because of something they can't control/
Unless you're one of those nuts that think people choose to be gay, and choose to be discriminated against, and instead of choosing to be straight instead just kill themselves for their sexuality for the lols, then not including gay people by intent is as bad as not including black people by intent.
So now you're comparing gay characters to black people not being included in mainstream media. Do you know how to argue your point without seeming like a huge dickwad?
It is the opinion of medical experts that sexual orientation can't be controlled.
Furthermore, if being gay is a choice, why the HELL would people choose it?! People KILL themselves because they're gay. If it was as simple as 'Ok I'm going to make myself not attracted to men anymore' then that wouldn't happen.
Racial prejudice and Gay prejudice can't be compared. It's an indisputable fact that race can't be controlled, it's an opinion that sexual p… morereference can't be controlled. I know I'll get hate, but you can't call something fact just because you believe it, or desire it to be fact.
I always thought there was something Freudian about that expression. Every single time homosexuality is brought up somebody talk about it being 'shoved down their throat.' How come it's never, 'forced,' 'coerced,' 'imposed upon,' 'inculcation,' 'indoctrication' etc...
I always thought there was something Freudian about that expression. Every single time homosexuality is brought up somebody talk about it be… moreing 'shoved down their throat.' How come it's never, 'forced,' 'coerced,' 'imposed upon,' 'inculcation,' 'indoctrication' etc...
Another strawman. Jesus dude, learn how to put across a point. If a show choose to have a gay person in their show. They would be there. Unlike in the 1900s where it was actively discouraged as of the state of affair. Media has evolved.
...what?
Racism and homophobia are terrible things for EXACTLY the same philosophical reason: people shouldn't treated differently becaus… moree of something they can't control/
Unless you're one of those nuts that think people choose to be gay, and choose to be discriminated against, and instead of choosing to be straight instead just kill themselves for their sexuality for the lols, then not including gay people by intent is as bad as not including black people by intent.
A LGBT character wouldn't make a difference in the story unless their sexuality is blatantly thrown into your face and even then it wouldn't add much to it.
Do you guys have any idea of how homophobic the gaming community is? Having some representation in games wouldn't hurt anybody, not saying that it should be in the TWD games though.
Hell, just look at the uproar that took place when they allowed for gay relationships in Mass Effect 3... but nobody cares that, if you haven't played Mass Effect 1 or 2, the only relationships you can have as FemShep are Lesbian ones! Talk about hypocresy!
No offense guys, but why are y'all getting all mad about the talk of a lesbian/gay/transgender/etc character being in the game? Y'all are ac… moreting like everyone in the world is straight and that's a normal thing. People just want to be recognized a little bit (those who are transgender or a different sexuality) and Telltale already has a great race diversity, it'd just be nice to have a character in there that they can relate to.
I guess it's a matter of when it's shoved down your throat or it's just there. If you have a homosexual character and they are preaching about equality I guess people wouldn't like that...
Exactly my thoughts.
Do you guys have any idea of how homophobic the gaming community is? Having some representation in games wouldn't hu… morert anybody, not saying that it should be in the TWD games though.
Hell, just look at the uproar that took place when they allowed for gay relationships in Mass Effect 3... but nobody cares that, if you haven't played Mass Effect 1 or 2, the only relationships you can have as FemShep are Lesbian ones! Talk about hypocresy!
What people are asking isn't so much for TT to have LGBT characters... but for the gaming community to be more accepting! How many gamers complained about the fact that in Mass Effect 3, if you haven't played Mass Effect 1 or 2, and you play as FemShep you can only engage in Lesbian relationships!
No guy has complained about that... on the other hand, there was this HUGE uproar when they introduced gay relationships for the same game! What the hell, gaming community?!
Talk about misogyny and homophobia and, worst of all, hypocresy!
TT, just bring Matthew back for Season Three, he's really cute.
There, a quick Photoshop sesion by me and he's ready for S3.
Comments
Well, when a large amount of people whose profession it is to investigate what is and is not true about the world say that something is true, we generally hold that to be true. And the consensus among scientists is that people do not experience agency over their sexual orientation.
The possibility of environmental factors influencing the development of sexual identity does not make it any more "voluntary" than say, developing an allergy due to environmental factors. You might also consider that not even identical twins aren't 100% physiologically identical, due to the influence of epigenetics and such. Furthermore, if lack of gendered socialization is what causes and shapes sexual preferences, then it would still be very unlikely for identical twins to have difference sexual orientations if they are raised in the same household by the same parents.
And, no, you can't choose whether or not you are an alcoholic. You can choose to take steps to combat your alcoholism and limit the damage that it can do to your life, but if you're an alcoholic, you're an alcoholic. Just like you can bleach your skin or force yourself to engage in heterosexual relationships, but that won't change your race or your sexual orientation. And yes, you can't be born gay, but neither can you be born straight, since sexual interests don't develop until much later in life. Yet I'm sure you'd agree that discriminating against someone because they're straight would be a terrible thing to do.
True enough, but I'd like to weigh in here and point out that there isn't much about a person that is determined by a single genetic marker. Certain specific bioligical functions, like the shape of your red blood cells, or the amount of melanin your body decides your eyes need are about it. Almost everything about who we are genetically is decided by a large and complex stew of relevant markers interacting in complicated ways.
Also, yes, perhaps noone's born gay. But in that case noone's born straight either, and though I'm disincled to argue that some of the factors you mention have no relevance, they're not exactly very controllable factors. Your hypothetical alcoholic, should he be hypothetically raised in ancient egypt or at Plymouth Rock and be fed a pint of beer every morning as breakfast, has effectively had all level of choice in the situation removed before even being consciously aware that there was a choice at all. Whether this person was alcoholic as an infant isn't particularly relevant. They're going to have been an alcoholic for as long as makes a difference before they even begin to realize it.
One last thing, partially in your defense: @Domewing333, I'd like to mention that with the exception of a few overzealously entrenched holdouts on either side, the nature vs. nurture argument has largely been resolved in modern academia. Everybody seems to have acknowledged the obvious answer, which is that it is an outmoded way of regarding the subject of behavior at all. Little about the mind (inasmuch as we're not fumbling around in the dark, which we mostly are) isn't anymore not widely regarded to be attributable some mixture of both.
This thread is still alive eh? LOL
this is soo cute
yeah jesus is a boss
Maybe that was unnecessary, I don't know.
I simply don't understand why people feel like a conscious effort needs to be made to make sure every little minority is prevalent in the story. An interesting character shouldn't rely on race/skin color or sexual orientation. I don't understand how sexual orientation nesescarily factors into anything. Walter was gay, but that isn't the reason why he was a good character by any measure. Even though he was gay, he acted like any other straight character.
I'm a 20 year old white guy and last season I didn't care that I was playing as a near middle aged black guy looking after a black little girl (or whatever race she is). I liked Lee based on who he was as a person (character traits). I couldn't care less what his skin color was.
Also I would just like to add that this post isn't really directed at the OP, but other users debating these things in this thread. Including characters from minority groups does not inherently make them interesting characters (or at least it really shouldn't).
people just want to be included and like someone thats like them on screen or on page.
(Clem is black btw)
And here's a like simply for posting a Manuel meme. One good turn deserves another.
Being able to relate to a character is one thing, but you shouldn't like a character simply based on what race they are or what sexual orientation they are.
Do gay people like Walter just because he is gay? Do black people like Lee just because he is black? Is Glenn a fan favorite among Asians? This line of thinking is just flawed in my opinion. Minorities shouldn't be thrust into the story for the simple fact of race identification or sexual orientation identification.
I could easily like and relate to Lee regardless of the fact that he was black and I am white. I could easily relate and sympathize with Walter even though he was gay and I am straight.
i'm black and i love lee not just because he's black(which is awesome) but also because he's a well done character. I don't know about walter and i'm not asian so i don't know but i think glenn is a favorite among asians, at least from what i've seen online of people cosplaying.
I'm pretty solidly in the demographic majority as a straight white male, and I can't really speak for anyone else, but I'd just like to mention that Glenn is my favorite character on the show, at least in part because I find him very relatable.
I wholeheartedly agree!
That's all I'm asking for. Like the characters based on who they actually are as characters. Sharing ethnicity or sexual preference shouldn't inherently make a character more interesting.
Of course more Asians are going to cosplay as Glenn than otherwise.. I mean... its not like I could pull off a good Lee cosplay considering the fact that I'm pretty white.
if you like glenn don't read the walking dead issue 100. maybe you have i don't know.
I looked up Glenn on the Walking Dead Comics wiki & saw... how he... ugh it's brutal.
lol, no. I've ben kind of just jumping around whatever issues i can get my hands on. I've read maybe 35 of them in no particular order. I did get a chance to learn his fate though. Someone posted that page of issue 100 in a Carver-related thread recently, when the conversation went off on a general characters-having-their-heads-caved-in tangent. I do appreciate the warning though.
no i mean the people the cosplay glenn seem really happy that glenn exists and is in this popular franchise. people that aren't straight or white(no offense to you) want to see themselves because if they are in a show or movie they're usually horribly stereotyped or are just there for comic relief and not to be an actual character.
case in point
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyq61qQF9ik
granted that movie is kinda old(the 90s) that still happens today.
yeah r.i.p. glenn
I don't know, my lily-white ex-girlfriend put together a pretty great Afro Samurai costume for Halloween one year. Everyone at the party who had any clue who Afro Samurai was got it immediately and she had 2 demographic hurdles to leap.
LGBT character? Completely unnecessary ...
I wouldn't mind to be honest, as long as its not a central theme, which I doubt it would be. Minorities could do with a bit more representation in the media.
Then those people are too hung up on race themselves. Enjoy the characters for who they are, not what they are. Who cares if they're black. Who cares if they're white. Who cares if they're straight or gay.
If I played a game with zero white people in it I wouldn't be like: "Omgggg where were all the white people?? I can't relate to this game without seeing someone with matching skin color!1!1!!"
You're acting like people need to be able to racially and sexually identify with other characters in order to find some sort of self security. You're acting like people need to feel represented. I really do not think this is a good line of thinking at all.
thats not what i'm saying at all. a game with no white people? high unlikely. those people aren't too hung up on race. race is important when you're not white. you have kids that grow up hating themselves and their race because their not white. because white is seen as right. so don't say people are too hung up race. you just don't get it man and i don't think you ever will. i would say some really nasty shit to you but i can't because i already for insulting asshats like you. oops.
you need help dude.
Correct. In 20 hours of TWD, a single kiss on_the_cheek. And that was even determinant.
Er, could you please not say "tranny"? Say transgender instead, please.
No offense guys, but why are y'all getting all mad about the talk of a lesbian/gay/transgender/etc character being in the game? Y'all are acting like everyone in the world is straight and that's a normal thing. People just want to be recognized a little bit (those who are transgender or a different sexuality) and Telltale already has a great race diversity, it'd just be nice to have a character in there that they can relate to.
...what?
Racism and homophobia are terrible things for EXACTLY the same philosophical reason: people shouldn't treated differently because of something they can't control/
Unless you're one of those nuts that think people choose to be gay, and choose to be discriminated against, and instead of choosing to be straight instead just kill themselves for their sexuality for the lols, then not including gay people by intent is as bad as not including black people by intent.
It is the opinion of medical experts that sexual orientation can't be controlled.
Furthermore, if being gay is a choice, why the HELL would people choose it?! People KILL themselves because they're gay. If it was as simple as 'Ok I'm going to make myself not attracted to men anymore' then that wouldn't happen.
Homosexuality isn't a political ideal.
I always thought there was something Freudian about that expression. Every single time homosexuality is brought up somebody talk about it being 'shoved down their throat.' How come it's never, 'forced,' 'coerced,' 'imposed upon,' 'inculcation,' 'indoctrication' etc...
It's actually quite possible there is.
Studies have shown that the more vocally opposed to homosexuality one is, the more likely they are to have repressed or hidden homosexual urges.
Well, put it this way: Kenny had a wife. If one male character had a husband instead of a wife, it would be as relevant, would it not?
people aren't saying the game should be about coming out. They are saying that homosexual characters shouldn't be avoided: they are a fact of life.
Another strawman. Jesus dude, learn how to put across a point. If a show choose to have a gay person in their show. They would be there. Unlike in the 1900s where it was actively discouraged as of the state of affair. Media has evolved.
no its becky
there already have been lgbt characters in twd...
No it's Patrick.
A LGBT character wouldn't make a difference in the story unless their sexuality is blatantly thrown into your face and even then it wouldn't add much to it.
Exactly my thoughts.
Do you guys have any idea of how homophobic the gaming community is? Having some representation in games wouldn't hurt anybody, not saying that it should be in the TWD games though.
Hell, just look at the uproar that took place when they allowed for gay relationships in Mass Effect 3... but nobody cares that, if you haven't played Mass Effect 1 or 2, the only relationships you can have as FemShep are Lesbian ones! Talk about hypocresy!
I guess it's a matter of when it's shoved down your throat or it's just there. If you have a homosexual character and they are preaching about equality I guess people wouldn't like that...
What people are asking isn't so much for TT to have LGBT characters... but for the gaming community to be more accepting! How many gamers complained about the fact that in Mass Effect 3, if you haven't played Mass Effect 1 or 2, and you play as FemShep you can only engage in Lesbian relationships!
No guy has complained about that... on the other hand, there was this HUGE uproar when they introduced gay relationships for the same game! What the hell, gaming community?!
Talk about misogyny and homophobia and, worst of all, hypocresy!
TT, just bring Matthew back for Season Three, he's really cute.
There, a quick Photoshop sesion by me and he's ready for S3.