I would rather they not have Arvo come back just for the sole purpose of deciding whether to kill him or not. They don't have to bring a hated character back just so people get to indulge in a revenge fantasy against them. Plus, the world isn't always that easy; I'd actually like a scenario where he comes back but you aren't able to just kill him. Do something different; use him as a character in S3, but build him up to actually be somewhat sympathetic or redeemable, or at least an anti-hero of sorts.
Bonnie with a passion. I was okay with her until she blamed me for Luke's death, especially when in my version she was the one to break the ice. I dislike Arvo, but not with an intense passion. And Lilly. I could sympathize with her reaction to her father's death and to some extent her execution of Carley...but her decision to speed off in the RV if you don't leave her behind after killing Carley pissed me the fuck off--at least be man enough to face the consequences of your actions.
Jane. She is literally the worst character Telltale has ever made.
I don't usually push my opinions on people, but if you like Jane in any way, you're wrong. Straight up. I mean, her design is alright, but other than that, not only are the themes she promotes contradictory to practically the ENTIRE philosophy displayed in Season 1, she's also a manipulative psycho bitch who has a weird obsession with Clementine, comparable to the Stranger from Season 1. I mean, Kenny's a dick, but at least he's entirely sane (regardless of what everyone says in S2, Ken totally held it together). Her voice actor was boring, her writing was boring, her scenes were boring, and sometimes offensive even. Seriously, Jane is awful.
Admittedly, Jane’s very low on my list of liked characters, but she was a decent enough character considering the overall poor writing of Season 2. Like a lot of Season 2 characters, she introduced some interesting concepts but simply never reached her potential. For example, I thought it was pretty sad how one probable reason Jane is so hesitant to help Sarah is that she’s afraid that if Sarah can be saved, there might’ve been some way to save Jaime had she tried harder to help her (even though there really wasn’t) and the guilt would tear her apart.
the themes she promotes are contradictory to practically the ENTIRE philosophy displayed in Season 1.
I’m guessing you’re one of those people who actually believed Kenny’s rant about Jane? “You care about nobody but yourself.” “Running away again.” “A disturbed person with her own agenda.” Etcetera.
Remember how Jane is the last one to escape the trailer park if Sarah is saved? Or how she saved Kenny from getting murdered by the Russians? Or how she insists they have to try to help Kenny, even if Clem tries to tell her it’s too late for him? Or how she sympathizes with Bonnie, Mike an Arvo despite their betrayal? Or how she was the only one concerned about Clem freezing to death while Kenny was abusing a kid, Mike was twiddling his thumbs, and Bonnie was busy being a determinant character? Or how Jane decides to let the starving family into Howes if Clem doesn't make a choice? And the list goes on.
Her voice actor was boring, her writing was boring, her scenes were boring, and sometimes offensive even.
Subjective. I thought her voice acting was pretty great. I actually really felt for Jane when she screamed “This is all your fucking fault!” at Kenny during the fight, partly because I completely agreed with her, partly because you could tell how hard she was trying to make the group work during the episode. And her offensive scenes with Sarah were nowhere near as bad as Kenny’s child abuse & racism.
What I’m saying is, Jane’s not great, but she’s certainly not the worst. Hell, she's automatically a better character than Kenny because at least she's not an obnoxious creator's pet & a Jerk Sue.
Jane. She is literally the worst character Telltale has ever made.
I don't usually push my opinions on people, but if you like Jane in an… morey way, you're wrong. Straight up. I mean, her design is alright, but other than that, not only are the themes she promotes contradictory to practically the ENTIRE philosophy displayed in Season 1, she's also a manipulative psycho bitch who has a weird obsession with Clementine, comparable to the Stranger from Season 1. I mean, Kenny's a dick, but at least he's entirely sane (regardless of what everyone says in S2, Ken totally held it together). Her voice actor was boring, her writing was boring, her scenes were boring, and sometimes offensive even. Seriously, Jane is awful.
I actually feel that he's more of a jerkass woobie, for the simple fact that he doesn't really meet the criteria of all the characters tolerating his jerkass-ness (although it's probably better to just chalk this up to the two of us having very different opinions on Kenny as a whole, if that isn't about to become obvious with the following novella I just wrote). Despite what people say, a lot of characters make it pretty obvious that they're sick of his bullshit half the time, and he practically got shunned by damn near every character come episode 5, potentially including Clementine. Hell, by episode 5, the game is pretty much deliberately stacking the deck against Kenny, seemingly intending for the majority of people to choose to shoot/kill him (and as we can see, it worked, what with the 70/30 split on the choice)
The only episode that I'd actually agree with the jerk sue trope is In Harm's Way. I can't deny that, in comparison to any of the other episodes, this one shows the most egregious examples of favoritism/being a writer's pet (more or less). But in all honesty, I sincerely believe that that's the only episode that overdoes it. I think for the most part, the game has handled the relationship with Kenny quite well. Could it have been handled better as a whole in retrospect? Of course. Are there slip ups here and there in the other episodes? Definitely. But I didn't find any other scenes in any of the other episodes even reach the level that IHW did at times when it came to Kenny.
In fact, the only other episode that comes close is No Going Back, but let's be honest here: both Jane and Kenny played major roles in this episode together. I think it's just best to say, if anyone hogged the spotlight, it would be both of them, not just one of them.
A House Divided didn't focus all that much on Kenny. Yeah sure he came back, cue fanfare and happy music and all that, but the cabin group and Carver still had most of the episode's focus.
Amid the Ruins didn't even chiefly focus on him. He gets his moment to mourn and wallow in despair in the tent, but let's not forget that about half of this episode is spent with, or involves Jane and her worldviews in some fashion, and her character almost starts to teeter into the 'Kenny' territory you're opposed to: bonding that feels somewhat forced, not really being able to tell her off or get away from her, the game pretty much trying to validate her worldviews and artificially prove that she was right all along. If IHW had Kenny hogging the spotlight and hijacking the episode's progression and plot, then AmTR had Jane doing practically the same thing.
But anyways, pretty much all of the other episodes besides IHW handled expressing that you don't like him fairly well: sit with Luke, tell him you never liked Kenny, chew him out for being a melodramatic asshole in the tent (even calling him an asshole straight to his face and pretty much telling him to get his head out of his ass), mention to/agree with Jane that he's too far gone, tell him that he's scaring you and everyone else, defend Arvo and continuously try to get Kenny to stop beating on him all the time, criticize him for his (mis)treatment of Arvo, disagree with him about going to Wellington and acknowledging it to be dangerous to keep heading north, and finally being able to just shoot him and be done with it, in two different fashions. Even smaller details like being able to tell him off when he gets on your case for taking a drink of alcohol can count or disagreeing with trying to find a way out of Howe's immediately (which you can technically do, if you just go around and talk to people instead of look for weaknesses like he says), I suppose.
One could argue that Clementine's disposition towards Kenny would be a lot more positive since, in all honesty, she doesn't really see the really ugly side of him for the most part (the real ugly part of him). She's seen him talk shit and be a jerk to people, sure, but she didn't see the true extent of it: him leaving Lee in bad situations, him being okay with leaving people behind or to die (girl in the street, even if it makes sense to do from a survival perspective), some of the shit he said on the train ("not that fucking sham you're running back there"), not helping find Clementine solely because he thinks Lee's a dick, you get the idea. Then there's the fact that some of what she will hear out of him is determinant (if not brought to Crawford, she'll never hear him go absolutely berserk towards Ben, or any other jerkish stuff he does in Crawford, for one example)
Clementine also never really saw the real bad side of Lee and Kenny's relationship in S1, since she's not present during most of the deeper Lee and Kenny scenes. I mean, she's seen Kenny give Lee shit or the two of them butt heads with each other, but come to think of it, she didn't see him beat up Lee, the multiple instances where he can say he hates Lee, berate and bitch at him about stupid stuff, all of the verbal fights that the two get in, some of the various times he insulted Lee or his relationship with Clementine, him making the 'urban' comment, so on and so forth. Unlike with Larry, where she saw him knock Lee square in his face and leave him to die right in front of her, she doesn't witness any of the scenes where Kenny doesn't help Lee, ergo she's never seen him leave Lee behind (I think the closest she's seen to him leaving Lee is when they're on River Street, and Kenny drops Lee before just he goes down into the sewers, but that honestly didn't look intentional/malicious at all, more of Kenny continuing to suck at pulling Lee up stuff)
I mean, about the most she'd learn about is Kenny not helping Lee find her, and that's provided that Christa and Omid even mentioned it in the first place. I mean, Clementine says Christa told her Kenny died, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they just came out one day and bluntly said "Oh by the way, Kenny didn't help find you, because he thought Lee was a dick."
Then of course, you have Season 1 which allowed you to make it quite obvious you don't like him: outright blame and berate him for Shawn's death, being able to say you're not on his side/don't have his back if you allowed Larry to throw Duck out, choose sides over him, tell him you're still not on his side in episodes 2 3 and 4, berate him for murdering Larry, telling him off on multiple different occasions for being a dick, telling others you don't like him/trust him, antagonize and beat him up on the train for being an asshole, the grand moment of telling him to go fuck himself at the end of episode 4, losing your temper with him in the attic, and being able to downright refuse when he attempts to apologize in the attic, saying that he's still a bastard despite everything
One could argue that Clementine's disposition towards Kenny would be a lot more positive since, in all honesty, she doesn't really see the really ugly side of him for the most part (the real ugly part of him). She's seen him talk shit and be a jerk to people, sure, but she didn't see the true extent of it: him leaving Lee in bad situations, him being okay with leaving people behind or to die (girl in the street, even if it makes sense to do from a survival perspective), some of the shit he said on the train ("not that fucking sham you're running back there"), not helping find Clementine solely because he thinks Lee's a dick, you get the idea. Then there's the fact that some of what she will hear out of him is determinant (if not brought to Crawford, she'll never hear him go absolutely berserk towards Ben, or any other jerkish stuff he does in Crawford, for one example)
And that's the problem with Kenny's role in Season 2, Clementine the character doesn't know about Kenny's rotten attitude towards Lee, but the players do. And they're the same players that are now controlling Clementine as of Season 2, and it's made more frustrating because we never get to have Clementine call him out on his actions from before, because we know that Clementine couldn't have known about how badly Kenny had treat her friend Lee. Sure it makes sense from a narrative point, but this basically means that we're controlling a little girl who may never know just how horrid her 'friend' is, and there's not a damn thing the players can do about it expect just play along with being his 'friend'.
But anyways, pretty much all of the other episodes besides IHW handled expressing that you don't like him fairly well
And yet the story would ignore these and consistently have Clementine see Kenny as her best friend regardless of how you respond to him. At least in Season 1 Lee wasn't forced to like or befriend Kenny and this was shown by how Kenny responds to you as well as others, but in Season 2, everyone sees you as his friend (evident by Mike's words in Episode 5), Kenny makes no mention about the times you told him off, and you're never allowed to make it clear that you're not his friend and never will be.
Despite what people say, a lot of characters make it pretty obvious that they're sick of his bullshit half the time, and he practically got shunned by damn near every character come episode 5, potentially including Clementine.
And yet the narrative continuously tries to portray Kenny in a positive light regardless of his antagonism towards the group, such as Mike and Bonnie turning into traitors and siding with Arvo while stealing the supplies, making Kenny look more morally right for beating a crippled kid for supposedly being the mastermind behind the shootout, thanks to the lack of backstories behind the cliché Russian bandits, as well as attempting to force the group to drive towards an unknown destination when there's an upcoming freezing blizzard that could have potentially killed everyone.
No matter what Kenny does, the narrative never one punishes him for his actions and instead tries to cover for him every time. Wellington exists because Kenny says so and the place just happens to exist after all, Arvo shoots a child to make Kenny's brutality towards him more justified, Bonnie and Mike goes out of character and tries to steal from the group to make us hate them for their betrayal, so we can turn to Kenny instead. Kenny doesn't suffer from the consequences of his actions, he benefits from it.
The only good thing out of Kenny VS Jane is where our forced loyalty to Kenny (and perhaps Jane to an extent) ends, even if all of his send offs are presented in a tragic light to make us feel sorry for him, it's still a opportunity for the players to be rid of him once and for all.
I actually feel that he's more of a jerkass woobie, for the simple fact that he doesn't really meet the criteria of all the characters toler… moreating his jerkass-ness (although it's probably better to just chalk this up to the two of us having very different opinions on Kenny as a whole, if that isn't about to become obvious with the following novella I just wrote). Despite what people say, a lot of characters make it pretty obvious that they're sick of his bullshit half the time, and he practically got shunned by damn near every character come episode 5, potentially including Clementine. Hell, by episode 5, the game is pretty much deliberately stacking the deck against Kenny, seemingly intending for the majority of people to choose to shoot/kill him (and as we can see, it worked, what with the 70/30 split on the choice)
The only episode that I'd actually agree with the jerk sue trope is In Harm's Way. I can't deny that, in comparison to any o… [view original content]
TV show: Beth Greene. Oh where to begin? I didn't have much of a problem with her until S4b. The writers inexplicably let her sit in the background for 2 1/2 seasons, occasionally having a line of dialog but mainly just singing and taking care of Judith (which I didn't have a problem with necessarily). Then when they finally decided they were gonna kill her off, the realized that they'd done nothing with her character, and in order for the audience to care they had to give her some screen time, character development, and an actual personality. I don't have a problem with this either, but the way they went about it was a disaster. Her "character development" was her deciding she wanted to get drunk, pitching a hissy fit at Daryl, and apparently revealing herself to be a closet pyromaniac. Then, with her new character development in place (as well as the attention of the legion of shippers that horrible episode birthed), they expected her to be able to carry her own story arc and she just, well, couldn't. The Grady Memorial plot was one of the worse original stories the show has ever done. First because it just wasn't well thought out and second, because Beth couldn't make it interesting by herself. The writing for her character was weak and even if it was better, I just don't think Emily Kinney is a very good actress. In short, I've never been so relieved to see a character die on this show. Not happy, just relieved.
Nicholas (Alexandria) also gets a special mention for winning the Ultimate Cowardly Douche Award.
Every other character I've disliked/hated has been someone we were meant to hate (Randall, Allen, etc.) or someone who doesn't get on my nerves as much as they used to (Eugene.)
Game: Kenny, Bonnie, Ben Paul, Sarah, Nick
I'm not going to go into much detail on Kenny, cause I know I'll just be rehashing what everyone else has already said. But I will say one thing. What bothers me the most about Kenny isn't that he's a dick, or that he flies off the handle and screws everything up, or that he can't be relied on in a crisis. These things could actually make for interesting character drama, and they did for the most part in S1. What really bothers me about Kenny is that the game constantly makes us feel like we're just supposed to put up with his crap just because he's Kenny. That, and the fact that he should've stayed dead in S1.
Bonnie. I didn't like her in 400 Days so when she popped up in S2 I was immediately wary. When she was revealed to be part of Carver's group, I wasn't surprised. When the game tried to make me feel like I should forgive her and be her friend, I only felt slightly bad for refusing to let Clem drop her guard like that. If Bonnie wanted my (Clem's) trust, she's have to earn it. And just when it seemed like she might do just that, wham. Betrayal. And again, I wasn't shocked. Bonnie proved herself in 400 Days to be dishonest and disloyal. Always more than willing to move on to someone or someplace else when it benefits her, with no regard for the people around her. Good riddance, I say. Saw it coming. Never felt more vindicated.
Ben Paul. I know Ben is probably one of the most realistic characters in the game, as far as how an actual everyday young person would react to the zombie apocalypse. But my problem with Ben is that he never gets better. He talks about how ashamed he is of his screw ups and how he knows he needs to make up for it, but then he never does. Really, when it comes down to Ben, there is just one act of his that was completely unforgivable in my mind. When the group first entered Savannah and the bells brought in a herd, Ben and Clem were cornered by walkers, and he just runs away and leaves her standing there. They were right next to each other! All he had to do was reach down, grab her hand and drag her away with him. But like always with Ben, when push came to shove, he couldn't step up. And because he couldn't step up, someone (Charles) died. The only reason I didn't drop him in that bell tower was because I didn't want to have to look Clem in the eye and tell her I did it.
Sarah. Probably gonna get some hate for this but, I never liked Sarah. From the moment she was introduced, she weirded me out and was practically screaming "I'm the character that's gonna cause Clem all sorts of trouble just by association." She was like Ben, in a lot of ways. She never got the chance to do anything and (if you saved her in the trailer park) she died as the result of a random accident. Just like Ben. I can't blame Sarah as much as I can blame Ben, but I just plain didn't like her.
Nick. Like Sarah, I didn't like Nick from the get go. I forgave him for almost shooting Clem, I understood the situation, but him being so trigger happy and irresponsible in that scene told me all I needed to know about his character. I marked him on the list of people Clem needs to keep away from. Nick, to me, was a combination of the worst traits of both Kenny and Ben, so there was really no hope of me ever liking him. Like Kenny, he's rash, over emotional, flies off the handle and causes problems for everyone. Like Ben, he's a complete screw up who never gets any better. Now in Nick's case, it just seems like TT didn't plan anything for him past the whole Matthew thing. Maybe if he'd actually done something in E3 or 4, I'd have a different opinion.
I'm not as up on the comics, but off the top of my head I can't stand Paul Monroe or Negan. Paul is just as ridiculously over the top as Daryl ever hopped to be, yet he seems to get universal praise. As for Negan. Good villain, but I've about had enough of him at this point. Not looking forward to him being introduced to the show.
Ben, because he was so incompetent, repeatedly. Sarah for this same reason but to a lesser degree.
Bonnie and Arvo for being straight assholes. Can't believe she blamed Clem for Luke's death when it was actually her fault. Arvo because he frickin tried to murder Clem!
I'm not as up on the comics, but off the top of my head I can't stand Paul Monroe or Negan. Paul is just as ridiculously over the top as Daryl ever hopped to be, yet he seems to get universal praise. As for Negan. Good villain, but I've about had enough of him at this point. Not looking forward to him being introduced to the show.
I agree with you about "jesus" exact same problems as daryl. I'm looking forward to negan i'm just hoping he show can pull him off properly.
TV show: Beth Greene. Oh where to begin? I didn't have much of a problem with her until S4b. The writers inexplicably let her sit in the bac… morekground for 2 1/2 seasons, occasionally having a line of dialog but mainly just singing and taking care of Judith (which I didn't have a problem with necessarily). Then when they finally decided they were gonna kill her off, the realized that they'd done nothing with her character, and in order for the audience to care they had to give her some screen time, character development, and an actual personality. I don't have a problem with this either, but the way they went about it was a disaster. Her "character development" was her deciding she wanted to get drunk, pitching a hissy fit at Daryl, and apparently revealing herself to be a closet pyromaniac. Then, with her new character development in place (as well as the attention of the legion of shippers that horrible episode birthed), they expected her to be… [view original content]
Jane. She is literally the worst character Telltale has ever made.
I don't usually push my opinions on people, but if you like Jane in an… morey way, you're wrong. Straight up. I mean, her design is alright, but other than that, not only are the themes she promotes contradictory to practically the ENTIRE philosophy displayed in Season 1, she's also a manipulative psycho bitch who has a weird obsession with Clementine, comparable to the Stranger from Season 1. I mean, Kenny's a dick, but at least he's entirely sane (regardless of what everyone says in S2, Ken totally held it together). Her voice actor was boring, her writing was boring, her scenes were boring, and sometimes offensive even. Seriously, Jane is awful.
She was certainly more developed than most characters from season 2, I'll give you that, but that doesn't make her better in my eyes. Though I guess there is something to better development in a good character. I'll cede there, ONLY on the grounds of development.
As for her philosophies, I'm talking about how Jane actively wants to leave the weak ones behind like Sarah. That's a HUGE part of her philosophy. The strong survive together, and without the weak. Where have we heard that before? So let's talk about the differences between Crawford and Jane. actively seeks out strong people. Jane is a major character, who you have no choice in whether or not Clementine likes Jane or not (at least not for the majority of the game. Clementine, being the emotional and moral heart of the game, liking Jane therefore means that TTG is supporting Jane's philosophy in some sense. Which is the exact opposite of how Crawford was handled. Crawford was a faceless, emotionless community. The thing is, they have the exact same philosophy. Oh, just because Jane had a sister at one point means I'm supposed to overlook that TTG just rehashed a villain and made it into a major character? Bullshit.
Yeah, I guess her voice acting is subjective, but she definitely, DEFINITELY doesn't match any major characters from season 1, except maybe Lilly and Christa. Also, yes, yes they fucking are. First off, does Kenny ever actually HIT Clementine? Sure, he shouts a bit, but I don't recall him hitting her, nor Duck. The thing about Kenny is that the kids are his priority, and just because he yelled at her after someone he loved died does not make him a worse person. And racism? You mean one stereotype included as a joke? Kenny's not a racist. Trust me, I come from the armpits of California, and Kenny's NOT racist. A racist would never associate with an "urban" no matter the circumstance, and certainly would NEVER give the famous "bro speech." Not to mention, he wouldn't give two shits about Clem if he was racist. He might have a stereotype implanted in his head, but he's no fucking racist. Don't get me wrong, Kenny's a shitty person, but not for either of the reasons you claim.
Jane is certainly the worst. She's a villain reworked into being a hero with NO change whatsoever in her philosophy. Sure, I can't stand the recycling of Kenny, that was some major bullshit, but that doesn't make him a worse character than Jane. The only way he could be worse was if he actually WAS abusive to Clementine, and he actually WAS racist.
but if you like Jane in any way, you're wrong.
Lol nope.
Admittedly, Jane’s very low on my list of liked characters, but she was … morea decent enough character considering the overall poor writing of Season 2. Like a lot of Season 2 characters, she introduced some interesting concepts but simply never reached her potential. For example, I thought it was pretty sad how one probable reason Jane is so hesitant to help Sarah is that she’s afraid that if Sarah can be saved, there might’ve been some way to save Jaime had she tried harder to help her (even though there really wasn’t) and the guilt would tear her apart.
the themes she promotes are contradictory to practically the ENTIRE philosophy displayed in Season 1.
I’m guessing you’re one of those people who actually believed Kenny’s rant about Jane? “You care about nobody but yourself.” “Running away again.” “A disturbed person with her own agenda.” Etcetera.
Remember how… [view original content]
As RichWalk23 mentioned, another classic Mary Sue trait is being disliked by other characters, and every single one of those characters later being demonized and proven completely wrong by the narrative in order to vindicate the Mary Sue. So basically Kenny.
And of course, I was only referring to Season 2 Kenny. Season 1 Kenny was actually a good character.
I actually feel that he's more of a jerkass woobie, for the simple fact that he doesn't really meet the criteria of all the characters toler… moreating his jerkass-ness (although it's probably better to just chalk this up to the two of us having very different opinions on Kenny as a whole, if that isn't about to become obvious with the following novella I just wrote). Despite what people say, a lot of characters make it pretty obvious that they're sick of his bullshit half the time, and he practically got shunned by damn near every character come episode 5, potentially including Clementine. Hell, by episode 5, the game is pretty much deliberately stacking the deck against Kenny, seemingly intending for the majority of people to choose to shoot/kill him (and as we can see, it worked, what with the 70/30 split on the choice)
The only episode that I'd actually agree with the jerk sue trope is In Harm's Way. I can't deny that, in comparison to any o… [view original content]
As for her philosophies, I'm talking about how Jane actively wants to leave the weak ones behind like Sarah. That's a HUGE part of her philosophy. The strong survive together, and without the weak.
I'm guessing you just completely ignored that wall of text of examples of Jane selflessly helping people at no personal gain? Watch the ending in which Jane decides to let the family in, not Clem. It is heavily implied she chose to help the family because she felt sympathy for the kid.
Sure, he shouts a bit, but I don't recall him hitting her, nor Duck
The fact that Arvo was a shitty plot device doesn't change that he was a kid. And I really don't like how often people downplay what Kenny says to Clem in Amid the Ruins. The shit he screamed at her was fucking atrocious, and quite literally verbal abuse.
Kenny's not a racist. Trust me, I come from the armpits of California, and Kenny's NOT racist. A racist would never associate with an "urban" no matter the circumstance, and certainly would NEVER give the famous "bro speech."
"I'm not a racist, I have plenty of black friends!"
Once again, Kenny's treatment of Arvo. And I don't care that people think Kenny was "justified" in his treatment of Arvo, the only reason people think that is because Arvo randomly shot Clem for no reason to retroactively vindicate Kenny. Classic Mary Sue bullshit.
She's a villain reworked into being a hero with NO change whatsoever in her philosophy
Once again, the ending in which she decides to help the family is a clear demonstration of how her character has developed into someone more empathetic thanks to Clem's influence.
Sure, I can't stand the recycling of Kenny, that was some major bullshit, but that doesn't make him a worse character than Jane. The only way he could be worse was if he actually WAS abusive to Clementine, and he actually WAS racist.
I'm glad that we agree Kenny is terrible.
But Jane will always be a step up from Kenny as a character, simply because she hasn't committed the unforgivable crime of being a Jerk Sue and a blatant creator's pet.
She was certainly more developed than most characters from season 2, I'll give you that, but that doesn't make her better in my eyes. Though… more I guess there is something to better development in a good character. I'll cede there, ONLY on the grounds of development.
As for her philosophies, I'm talking about how Jane actively wants to leave the weak ones behind like Sarah. That's a HUGE part of her philosophy. The strong survive together, and without the weak. Where have we heard that before? So let's talk about the differences between Crawford and Jane. actively seeks out strong people. Jane is a major character, who you have no choice in whether or not Clementine likes Jane or not (at least not for the majority of the game. Clementine, being the emotional and moral heart of the game, liking Jane therefore means that TTG is supporting Jane's philosophy in some sense. Which is the exact opposite of how Crawford was handled. Crawford was a fac… [view original content]
I missed that one, but regardless, she doesn't know their character yet. As soon as she knew that Sarah was weak, she was like, "Fuck it, leave her."
I think Kenny went overboard on his treatment of Arvo, sure, but consider that Arvo just hunted a child down. He hunted a little fucking kid, and proceeded to try to kill a LITTLE FUCKING KID. Even if all Clem did was try to make sure Arvo didn't get hurt when facing the fucking psycho Jane, he still tried to kill Clementine. I'd be kinda pissed, too. I'd probably be even more pissed if I was massively depressed and just holding it together. I also don't think that one set of verbal abuse makes someone abusive in general.
You make fun, but if he was really racist, he really wouldn't have done any of that shit. Trust me, I know plenty of true racists, and I don't think you know what racism really looks like. Feel free to inform me if you do.
I mentioned this earlier, but helping the family doesn't really prove anything. If we saw Jane saving someone who's having a panic attack, then we'd see development. Jane and Crawford both give chances for someone to prove their strength. That's why Jane stuck around after leaving Howe's. She wanted to see if there was anyone that could suit her purposes. That's my interpretation, anyways.
Eh... Kenny S2 infuriates me, and I think Kenny S1 is a huge dick, but overall, in his writing, (S1) development, and the skill of Gavin Hammon, Kenny is a pretty well done character (again, only in S1). Also, I'm not familiar with this Jerk Sue term you keep bringing up. What do you mean by that?
Kenny hasn't committed the unforgivable crime of blatant manipulation. Not on the levels that Jane did. If Jane survives, she convinces Clementine to murder someone who was totally in the right in their final moments. Remember Clementine? The sweet, kind girl? Yeah, Jane convinced Clementine to murder a motherfucker.
As for her philosophies, I'm talking about how Jane actively wants to leave the weak ones behind like Sarah. That's a HUGE part of her philo… moresophy. The strong survive together, and without the weak.
I'm guessing you just completely ignored that wall of text of examples of Jane selflessly helping people at no personal gain? Watch the ending in which Jane decides to let the family in, not Clem. It is heavily implied she chose to help the family because she felt sympathy for the kid.
Sure, he shouts a bit, but I don't recall him hitting her, nor Duck
The fact that Arvo was a shitty plot device doesn't change that he was a kid. And I really don't like how often people downplay what Kenny says to Clem in Amid the Ruins. The shit he screamed at her was fucking atrocious, and quite literally verbal abuse.
Kenny's not a racist. Trust me, I come from the armpits of California, and Kenny's NOT racist. A racist would never ass… [view original content]
for the most part I agree with you (just in a less rude way), but I'm a kid with autism typing on a keyboard and I think you've confused autism with retardation because your making them sound like the same thing..
Anyway -on topic-, for characters I hate, I'd say... I Don't know actually, the only characters that really pissed me off at all Were Kenny (mainly due to screen-hogging) and Carver (who we were pretty much forced to hate). and those weren't neccesarily hate.
I don't see Jane as Boring, but yeah, she's definitely a bit of a moron and really unlikeable, And When I can't think of many things the character does to warrant being Liked.
On the subject of Jane however, yeah, she's a bit of a bitch.,
About the Jerk Sue comment, I just read the comment below mine, and yeah, that pretty accurately describes S2 Kenny. Not S1 Kenny, though. Whenever Kenny started to get out of line, Lee had the option of telling him to shut up. Lee didn't put up with it. Even to the point of knocking Kenny the fuck out. Everyone else, though, totally let Kenny walk on them. Up until the end of the game, Lee can tell Kenny that he hates him. Granted, Lee will be saddened by the loss of Ken's life, because Kenny truly wasn't a nonredeemable human being. There were good qualities in Kenny.
As for her philosophies, I'm talking about how Jane actively wants to leave the weak ones behind like Sarah. That's a HUGE part of her philo… moresophy. The strong survive together, and without the weak.
I'm guessing you just completely ignored that wall of text of examples of Jane selflessly helping people at no personal gain? Watch the ending in which Jane decides to let the family in, not Clem. It is heavily implied she chose to help the family because she felt sympathy for the kid.
Sure, he shouts a bit, but I don't recall him hitting her, nor Duck
The fact that Arvo was a shitty plot device doesn't change that he was a kid. And I really don't like how often people downplay what Kenny says to Clem in Amid the Ruins. The shit he screamed at her was fucking atrocious, and quite literally verbal abuse.
Kenny's not a racist. Trust me, I come from the armpits of California, and Kenny's NOT racist. A racist would never ass… [view original content]
Once again, Kenny's treatment of Arvo. And I don't care that people think Kenny was "justified" in his treatment of Arvo, the only reason people think that is because Arvo randomly shot Clem for no reason to retroactively vindicate Kenny. Classic Mary Sue bullshit.
How does Arvo shooting Clementine vindicate Kenny, if Kenny was one of the primary reasons for it happening in the first place? If he didn't abuse Arvo from the beginning, he wouldn't have tried to run across the ice to get away from him. If he didn't run, Kenny wouldn't have gotten even angrier with him. If Kenny didn't get angrier, he wouldn't have gotten fed up and told him to go fuck himself then and there. If Arvo never said 'fuck you' at that specific moment, Kenny wouldn't have beaten him down as severely as he did, if he would even do it at all. He never beats Arvo down, Mike doesn't hit his breaking point and finally decide to leave, which means he never frees Arvo, which means Arvo never gets a hold of a gun, which means Arvo never shoots Clementine. Or alternatively, if Kenny never picked him up from his sister and tried to use him as a hostage, Arvo would have seen his sister reanimate, and if he didn't get bitten and killed by her first, he wouldn't blame Clementine for murdering her like he does now.
If anything, the game did punish Kenny's actions in that scenario, since he's the primary catalyst that caused Clementine to get shot in the first place; he's the one that inadvertently coaxed Arvo into shooting her. Of course, that's not to say that Arvo is by any means justified in shooting Clementine. Was shooting her a rational choice? Obviously not, because Arvo wouldn't be in any tangible state of rationality after he saw his whole group die and his sister get killed (which he still thinks Clementine straight up murdered, since he didn't know she reanimated), then got verbally/physically abused by and held captive immediately afterwards by a guy that continued to tell him that this was all his fault. If anything, it'd be more surprising if Arvo didn't do something like that when the opportunity presented itself
Also, to address another concern: how is Kenny's treatment of Arvo is racially motivated by any means? He's not beating up Arvo simply because he's russian, he's beating him up because he perceives Arvo as a threat and an enemy, and further perceives him having played a role in the shootout that nearly got everyone killed. Him calling Arvo racist terms comes secondary,. If someone started calling a woman that harmed them, their family, or other people they cared about a bunch of derogatory terms, does it automatically make them a sexist or make their treatment towards the woman primarily gender motivated? They're not hating on the person because they're a woman, they're hating on them for what they did, and the derogatory names only stem from the anger, frustration and grief the person feels at the moment. If Kenny's treatment of Arvo was truly racially motivated, he'd be doing a hell of a lot more than telling him to speak English in an insulting fashion, and he'd be saying things that are a lot more nasty than referring to him primarily as a russkie (or a "commie piece of shit" on one single occasion). Again, that's not excusing that he is indeed being discriminatory towards Arvo by pure definition, but it definitely isn't motivated by racism.
And I really don't like how often people downplay what Kenny says to Clem in Amid the Ruins
But to a degree, you're downplaying Kenny's abuse towards Arvo. I don't think there's any reason to not to believe, beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt, that Kenny's abusive treatment of Arvo acted as a primary motivator that factored into his decision to shoot Clementine. Maybe he would have shot her either way, but there is no denying that the abuse contributed heavily to that decision.
As for her philosophies, I'm talking about how Jane actively wants to leave the weak ones behind like Sarah. That's a HUGE part of her philo… moresophy. The strong survive together, and without the weak.
I'm guessing you just completely ignored that wall of text of examples of Jane selflessly helping people at no personal gain? Watch the ending in which Jane decides to let the family in, not Clem. It is heavily implied she chose to help the family because she felt sympathy for the kid.
Sure, he shouts a bit, but I don't recall him hitting her, nor Duck
The fact that Arvo was a shitty plot device doesn't change that he was a kid. And I really don't like how often people downplay what Kenny says to Clem in Amid the Ruins. The shit he screamed at her was fucking atrocious, and quite literally verbal abuse.
Kenny's not a racist. Trust me, I come from the armpits of California, and Kenny's NOT racist. A racist would never ass… [view original content]
Kenny, me as the player didn't agree/ hate his choices in series 1, and in series 2, I hate the fact that he took the spotlight, so the new characters didn't get much time to shine.
The St John's brothers scared me a lot, every time I play series 1. its the way they talked about eating human flesh, in a flat normal tone voices, like that choice is the most logical thing to do. also the fact by the end of the episode Danny was trying to turn Lee into a cannibal like him just sends shivers down my spin, seriously those bad guys / villains of that episode were really well written, they unnerved me.
How does Arvo shooting Clementine vindicate Kenny, if Kenny was one of the primary reasons for it happening in the first place? If he didn't abuse Arvo from the beginning, he wouldn't have tried to run across the ice to get away from him. If he didn't run, Kenny wouldn't have gotten even angrier with him. If Kenny didn't get angrier, he wouldn't have gotten fed up and told him to go fuck himself then and there. If Arvo never said 'fuck you' at that specific moment, Kenny wouldn't have beaten him down as severely as he did, if he would even do it at all. He never beats Arvo down, Mike doesn't hit his breaking point and finally decide to leave, which means he never frees Arvo, which means Arvo never gets a hold of a gun, which means Arvo never shoots Clementine.
And yet that’s not how the narrative expects you to think. All those options to defend Arvo, to call Kenny out on his abuse, all of it is intended to allow the player disagree with Kenny at first, and then ultimately feel guilty for ever siding against Kenny once Arvo shoots Clem. Notice how after Clem is shot, and Kenny is going on about how he was “right all along about that Russian” and how “Mike is scum for stealing our shit and shooting a kid”, you are not given an option to disagree with him. You can either ask what happened to them, or show contempt towards them for their inexplicable betrayal. No option to agree with Jane that Kenny’s at fault for driving them away. The game does not expect you to sympathize with Arvo or Mike after the Shocking Betrayal.
It’s quite similar to what happens with Jane. She is initially presented as a sympathetic person with valid arguments against Kenny, and the player is given plenty of options to choose her over Kenny throughout the episode. But then, in the Thrilling Conclusion, Jane suddenly does something horribly immoral, completely out of character, and utterly inexplicable just to show how Kenny was truly right all along, just to make the players who previously sided against him feel terrible for ever doubting Kenny.
Compare the “You’re… dangerous Kenny. I don’t want to leave you… but I have to.” line with the “Upset? You’re fucking crazy! I’m not going anywhere with you!” line directed at Jane.
If anything, the game did punish Kenny's actions in that scenario, since he's the primary catalyst that caused Clementine to get shot in the first place; he's the one that inadvertently coaxed Arvo into shooting her.
If anything, it'd be more surprising if Arvo didn't do something like that when the opportunity presented itself
But to a degree, you're downplaying Kenny's abuse towards Arvo. I don't think there's any reason to not to believe, beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt, that Kenny's abusive treatment of Arvo acted as a primary motivator that factored into his decision to shoot Clementine. Maybe he would have shot her either way, but there is no denying that the abuse contributed heavily to that decision.
The thing about Arvo thinking Clem murdered his sister is so dumb and forced. Literally a single line from Clem explaining the situation to Arvo would’ve fixed that issue.
And the thing about Kenny’s abuse somehow motivating Arvo shooting Clem literally makes no sense the way it’s presented. No functional human being would have fired the rifle in that scenario. Arvo is trying to sneak away from the evil, abusive man. He is robbing the evil abusive man. Don’t tell that me that his traumatic experiences made his brain just cease to function for some reason; seeing as how he is whispering with Mike at the beginning of the scene, he clearly has enough sense to realize that they have to be quiet in order to escape. What would motivate him to fire a loud ass rifle in the middle of their escape, especially if Clem makes it clear she isn’t going to stop them? And the language barrier isn’t an excuse, Arvo sees Clem drop her gun on the ground.
And if Clem tries to defend Arvo throughout the episode? It makes even less sense. What would motivate him to shoot her then? She’d dropped her gun, she was being quiet, and she’d made it clear she didn’t agree with how Kenny was treating him. What would Kenny abusing Arvo have to do with him shooting Clem? Why would Arvo shoot?
To make players hate him and realize Kenny was right that he was a threat that didn’t deserve sympathy. And so the episode could have its Shocking Moment, I guess.
To say Arvo "made a decision" to shoot Clem is being generous, seeing as it happened to advance the plot with no in-universe justification
Also, to address another concern: how is Kenny's treatment of Arvo is racially motivated by any means?
About this, I realize that Kenny’s isn’t a “racist” in the sense that he doesn’t think one race is superior to another, as far as I can tell. Maybe I should have been clearer, but the reason I brought this up was because I didn’t agree with Harpadarpa that the “offensive” subtext in some of Jane’s scenes with Sarah regarding mental illness is reason to claim Jane is a worse character than Kenny, seeing as there are plenty of aspects to Kenny’s character that can be seen as equally offensive (racially insensitive remarks, and outright child abuse).
Once again, Kenny's treatment of Arvo. And I don't care that people think Kenny was "justified" in his treatment of Arvo, the only reason pe… moreople think that is because Arvo randomly shot Clem for no reason to retroactively vindicate Kenny. Classic Mary Sue bullshit.
How does Arvo shooting Clementine vindicate Kenny, if Kenny was one of the primary reasons for it happening in the first place? If he didn't abuse Arvo from the beginning, he wouldn't have tried to run across the ice to get away from him. If he didn't run, Kenny wouldn't have gotten even angrier with him. If Kenny didn't get angrier, he wouldn't have gotten fed up and told him to go fuck himself then and there. If Arvo never said 'fuck you' at that specific moment, Kenny wouldn't have beaten him down as severely as he did, if he would even do it at all. He never beats Arvo down, Mike doesn't hit his breaking point and finally decide to leave, which means he never frees Arvo… [view original content]
The thing about Arvo thinking Clem murdered his sister is so dumb and forced. Literally a single line from Clem explaining the situation to Arvo would’ve fixed that issue.
Lol, you just described the whole of The Walking Dead Season 2. It's all dumb and forced. If we're going to argue about Kenny, I suggest we argue about S1 Kenny. At least there's a little bit more to debate there.
How does Arvo shooting Clementine vindicate Kenny, if Kenny was one of the primary reasons for it happening in the first place? If he didn't… more abuse Arvo from the beginning, he wouldn't have tried to run across the ice to get away from him. If he didn't run, Kenny wouldn't have gotten even angrier with him. If Kenny didn't get angrier, he wouldn't have gotten fed up and told him to go fuck himself then and there. If Arvo never said 'fuck you' at that specific moment, Kenny wouldn't have beaten him down as severely as he did, if he would even do it at all. He never beats Arvo down, Mike doesn't hit his breaking point and finally decide to leave, which means he never frees Arvo, which means Arvo never gets a hold of a gun, which means Arvo never shoots Clementine.
And yet that’s not how the narrative expects you to think. All those options to defend Arvo, to call Kenny out on his abuse, all of it is intended to allow the player disagree w… [view original content]
Comments
I honestly doubt he'd make it far even with both of his legs working.
He deserves no life. He shot Clem, he should die.
Did you spare the St. Johns?
Sarah
jane lied to our clemmy, she wanted to let sarah die, shes a godsend yeah sure lol
Ah, a fellow Synyster fan.
I would rather they not have Arvo come back just for the sole purpose of deciding whether to kill him or not. They don't have to bring a hated character back just so people get to indulge in a revenge fantasy against them. Plus, the world isn't always that easy; I'd actually like a scenario where he comes back but you aren't able to just kill him. Do something different; use him as a character in S3, but build him up to actually be somewhat sympathetic or redeemable, or at least an anti-hero of sorts.
I regreted doing that.
YES
agHK YESSSS A FAN
hE'S SUCH A CUTIE OMF
Bonnie with a passion. I was okay with her until she blamed me for Luke's death, especially when in my version she was the one to break the ice. I dislike Arvo, but not with an intense passion. And Lilly. I could sympathize with her reaction to her father's death and to some extent her execution of Carley...but her decision to speed off in the RV if you don't leave her behind after killing Carley pissed me the fuck off--at least be man enough to face the consequences of your actions.
Why is what Bonnie did so much worse than what Mike did?
Jane. She is literally the worst character Telltale has ever made.
I don't usually push my opinions on people, but if you like Jane in any way, you're wrong. Straight up. I mean, her design is alright, but other than that, not only are the themes she promotes contradictory to practically the ENTIRE philosophy displayed in Season 1, she's also a manipulative psycho bitch who has a weird obsession with Clementine, comparable to the Stranger from Season 1. I mean, Kenny's a dick, but at least he's entirely sane (regardless of what everyone says in S2, Ken totally held it together). Her voice actor was boring, her writing was boring, her scenes were boring, and sometimes offensive even. Seriously, Jane is awful.
Lol nope.
Admittedly, Jane’s very low on my list of liked characters, but she was a decent enough character considering the overall poor writing of Season 2. Like a lot of Season 2 characters, she introduced some interesting concepts but simply never reached her potential. For example, I thought it was pretty sad how one probable reason Jane is so hesitant to help Sarah is that she’s afraid that if Sarah can be saved, there might’ve been some way to save Jaime had she tried harder to help her (even though there really wasn’t) and the guilt would tear her apart.
I’m guessing you’re one of those people who actually believed Kenny’s rant about Jane? “You care about nobody but yourself.” “Running away again.” “A disturbed person with her own agenda.” Etcetera.
Remember how Jane is the last one to escape the trailer park if Sarah is saved? Or how she saved Kenny from getting murdered by the Russians? Or how she insists they have to try to help Kenny, even if Clem tries to tell her it’s too late for him? Or how she sympathizes with Bonnie, Mike an Arvo despite their betrayal? Or how she was the only one concerned about Clem freezing to death while Kenny was abusing a kid, Mike was twiddling his thumbs, and Bonnie was busy being a determinant character? Or how Jane decides to let the starving family into Howes if Clem doesn't make a choice? And the list goes on.
Subjective. I thought her voice acting was pretty great. I actually really felt for Jane when she screamed “This is all your fucking fault!” at Kenny during the fight, partly because I completely agreed with her, partly because you could tell how hard she was trying to make the group work during the episode. And her offensive scenes with Sarah were nowhere near as bad as Kenny’s child abuse & racism.
What I’m saying is, Jane’s not great, but she’s certainly not the worst. Hell, she's automatically a better character than Kenny because at least she's not an obnoxious creator's pet & a Jerk Sue.
Speaking of which, it is incredible how perfectly this describes Kenny.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkSue
I actually feel that he's more of a jerkass woobie, for the simple fact that he doesn't really meet the criteria of all the characters tolerating his jerkass-ness (although it's probably better to just chalk this up to the two of us having very different opinions on Kenny as a whole, if that isn't about to become obvious with the following novella I just wrote). Despite what people say, a lot of characters make it pretty obvious that they're sick of his bullshit half the time, and he practically got shunned by damn near every character come episode 5, potentially including Clementine. Hell, by episode 5, the game is pretty much deliberately stacking the deck against Kenny, seemingly intending for the majority of people to choose to shoot/kill him (and as we can see, it worked, what with the 70/30 split on the choice)
The only episode that I'd actually agree with the jerk sue trope is In Harm's Way. I can't deny that, in comparison to any of the other episodes, this one shows the most egregious examples of favoritism/being a writer's pet (more or less). But in all honesty, I sincerely believe that that's the only episode that overdoes it. I think for the most part, the game has handled the relationship with Kenny quite well. Could it have been handled better as a whole in retrospect? Of course. Are there slip ups here and there in the other episodes? Definitely. But I didn't find any other scenes in any of the other episodes even reach the level that IHW did at times when it came to Kenny.
In fact, the only other episode that comes close is No Going Back, but let's be honest here: both Jane and Kenny played major roles in this episode together. I think it's just best to say, if anyone hogged the spotlight, it would be both of them, not just one of them.
A House Divided didn't focus all that much on Kenny. Yeah sure he came back, cue fanfare and happy music and all that, but the cabin group and Carver still had most of the episode's focus.
Amid the Ruins didn't even chiefly focus on him. He gets his moment to mourn and wallow in despair in the tent, but let's not forget that about half of this episode is spent with, or involves Jane and her worldviews in some fashion, and her character almost starts to teeter into the 'Kenny' territory you're opposed to: bonding that feels somewhat forced, not really being able to tell her off or get away from her, the game pretty much trying to validate her worldviews and artificially prove that she was right all along. If IHW had Kenny hogging the spotlight and hijacking the episode's progression and plot, then AmTR had Jane doing practically the same thing.
But anyways, pretty much all of the other episodes besides IHW handled expressing that you don't like him fairly well: sit with Luke, tell him you never liked Kenny, chew him out for being a melodramatic asshole in the tent (even calling him an asshole straight to his face and pretty much telling him to get his head out of his ass), mention to/agree with Jane that he's too far gone, tell him that he's scaring you and everyone else, defend Arvo and continuously try to get Kenny to stop beating on him all the time, criticize him for his (mis)treatment of Arvo, disagree with him about going to Wellington and acknowledging it to be dangerous to keep heading north, and finally being able to just shoot him and be done with it, in two different fashions. Even smaller details like being able to tell him off when he gets on your case for taking a drink of alcohol can count or disagreeing with trying to find a way out of Howe's immediately (which you can technically do, if you just go around and talk to people instead of look for weaknesses like he says), I suppose.
One could argue that Clementine's disposition towards Kenny would be a lot more positive since, in all honesty, she doesn't really see the really ugly side of him for the most part (the real ugly part of him). She's seen him talk shit and be a jerk to people, sure, but she didn't see the true extent of it: him leaving Lee in bad situations, him being okay with leaving people behind or to die (girl in the street, even if it makes sense to do from a survival perspective), some of the shit he said on the train ("not that fucking sham you're running back there"), not helping find Clementine solely because he thinks Lee's a dick, you get the idea. Then there's the fact that some of what she will hear out of him is determinant (if not brought to Crawford, she'll never hear him go absolutely berserk towards Ben, or any other jerkish stuff he does in Crawford, for one example)
Clementine also never really saw the real bad side of Lee and Kenny's relationship in S1, since she's not present during most of the deeper Lee and Kenny scenes. I mean, she's seen Kenny give Lee shit or the two of them butt heads with each other, but come to think of it, she didn't see him beat up Lee, the multiple instances where he can say he hates Lee, berate and bitch at him about stupid stuff, all of the verbal fights that the two get in, some of the various times he insulted Lee or his relationship with Clementine, him making the 'urban' comment, so on and so forth. Unlike with Larry, where she saw him knock Lee square in his face and leave him to die right in front of her, she doesn't witness any of the scenes where Kenny doesn't help Lee, ergo she's never seen him leave Lee behind (I think the closest she's seen to him leaving Lee is when they're on River Street, and Kenny drops Lee before just he goes down into the sewers, but that honestly didn't look intentional/malicious at all, more of Kenny continuing to suck at pulling Lee up stuff)
I mean, about the most she'd learn about is Kenny not helping Lee find her, and that's provided that Christa and Omid even mentioned it in the first place. I mean, Clementine says Christa told her Kenny died, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they just came out one day and bluntly said "Oh by the way, Kenny didn't help find you, because he thought Lee was a dick."
Then of course, you have Season 1 which allowed you to make it quite obvious you don't like him: outright blame and berate him for Shawn's death, being able to say you're not on his side/don't have his back if you allowed Larry to throw Duck out, choose sides over him, tell him you're still not on his side in episodes 2 3 and 4, berate him for murdering Larry, telling him off on multiple different occasions for being a dick, telling others you don't like him/trust him, antagonize and beat him up on the train for being an asshole, the grand moment of telling him to go fuck himself at the end of episode 4, losing your temper with him in the attic, and being able to downright refuse when he attempts to apologize in the attic, saying that he's still a bastard despite everything
I guess its because Bonnie betrays you a second time and also can possibly blame clem for lukes death/cause lukes death.
TV Andrea.
Slap in the face of all her comic fans and absolutely horribly written (and acted) to boot.
Season 2 Kenny.
And that's the problem with Kenny's role in Season 2, Clementine the character doesn't know about Kenny's rotten attitude towards Lee, but the players do. And they're the same players that are now controlling Clementine as of Season 2, and it's made more frustrating because we never get to have Clementine call him out on his actions from before, because we know that Clementine couldn't have known about how badly Kenny had treat her friend Lee. Sure it makes sense from a narrative point, but this basically means that we're controlling a little girl who may never know just how horrid her 'friend' is, and there's not a damn thing the players can do about it expect just play along with being his 'friend'.
And yet the story would ignore these and consistently have Clementine see Kenny as her best friend regardless of how you respond to him. At least in Season 1 Lee wasn't forced to like or befriend Kenny and this was shown by how Kenny responds to you as well as others, but in Season 2, everyone sees you as his friend (evident by Mike's words in Episode 5), Kenny makes no mention about the times you told him off, and you're never allowed to make it clear that you're not his friend and never will be.
And yet the narrative continuously tries to portray Kenny in a positive light regardless of his antagonism towards the group, such as Mike and Bonnie turning into traitors and siding with Arvo while stealing the supplies, making Kenny look more morally right for beating a crippled kid for supposedly being the mastermind behind the shootout, thanks to the lack of backstories behind the cliché Russian bandits, as well as attempting to force the group to drive towards an unknown destination when there's an upcoming freezing blizzard that could have potentially killed everyone.
No matter what Kenny does, the narrative never one punishes him for his actions and instead tries to cover for him every time. Wellington exists because Kenny says so and the place just happens to exist after all, Arvo shoots a child to make Kenny's brutality towards him more justified, Bonnie and Mike goes out of character and tries to steal from the group to make us hate them for their betrayal, so we can turn to Kenny instead. Kenny doesn't suffer from the consequences of his actions, he benefits from it.
The only good thing out of Kenny VS Jane is where our forced loyalty to Kenny (and perhaps Jane to an extent) ends, even if all of his send offs are presented in a tragic light to make us feel sorry for him, it's still a opportunity for the players to be rid of him once and for all.
I absolutely despise Kenny especially for killing Jane ( derterminantly)
TV show: Beth Greene. Oh where to begin? I didn't have much of a problem with her until S4b. The writers inexplicably let her sit in the background for 2 1/2 seasons, occasionally having a line of dialog but mainly just singing and taking care of Judith (which I didn't have a problem with necessarily). Then when they finally decided they were gonna kill her off, the realized that they'd done nothing with her character, and in order for the audience to care they had to give her some screen time, character development, and an actual personality. I don't have a problem with this either, but the way they went about it was a disaster. Her "character development" was her deciding she wanted to get drunk, pitching a hissy fit at Daryl, and apparently revealing herself to be a closet pyromaniac. Then, with her new character development in place (as well as the attention of the legion of shippers that horrible episode birthed), they expected her to be able to carry her own story arc and she just, well, couldn't. The Grady Memorial plot was one of the worse original stories the show has ever done. First because it just wasn't well thought out and second, because Beth couldn't make it interesting by herself. The writing for her character was weak and even if it was better, I just don't think Emily Kinney is a very good actress. In short, I've never been so relieved to see a character die on this show. Not happy, just relieved.
Nicholas (Alexandria) also gets a special mention for winning the Ultimate Cowardly Douche Award.
Every other character I've disliked/hated has been someone we were meant to hate (Randall, Allen, etc.) or someone who doesn't get on my nerves as much as they used to (Eugene.)
Game: Kenny, Bonnie, Ben Paul, Sarah, Nick
I'm not going to go into much detail on Kenny, cause I know I'll just be rehashing what everyone else has already said. But I will say one thing. What bothers me the most about Kenny isn't that he's a dick, or that he flies off the handle and screws everything up, or that he can't be relied on in a crisis. These things could actually make for interesting character drama, and they did for the most part in S1. What really bothers me about Kenny is that the game constantly makes us feel like we're just supposed to put up with his crap just because he's Kenny. That, and the fact that he should've stayed dead in S1.
Bonnie. I didn't like her in 400 Days so when she popped up in S2 I was immediately wary. When she was revealed to be part of Carver's group, I wasn't surprised. When the game tried to make me feel like I should forgive her and be her friend, I only felt slightly bad for refusing to let Clem drop her guard like that. If Bonnie wanted my (Clem's) trust, she's have to earn it. And just when it seemed like she might do just that, wham. Betrayal. And again, I wasn't shocked. Bonnie proved herself in 400 Days to be dishonest and disloyal. Always more than willing to move on to someone or someplace else when it benefits her, with no regard for the people around her. Good riddance, I say. Saw it coming. Never felt more vindicated.
Ben Paul. I know Ben is probably one of the most realistic characters in the game, as far as how an actual everyday young person would react to the zombie apocalypse. But my problem with Ben is that he never gets better. He talks about how ashamed he is of his screw ups and how he knows he needs to make up for it, but then he never does. Really, when it comes down to Ben, there is just one act of his that was completely unforgivable in my mind. When the group first entered Savannah and the bells brought in a herd, Ben and Clem were cornered by walkers, and he just runs away and leaves her standing there. They were right next to each other! All he had to do was reach down, grab her hand and drag her away with him. But like always with Ben, when push came to shove, he couldn't step up. And because he couldn't step up, someone (Charles) died. The only reason I didn't drop him in that bell tower was because I didn't want to have to look Clem in the eye and tell her I did it.
Sarah. Probably gonna get some hate for this but, I never liked Sarah. From the moment she was introduced, she weirded me out and was practically screaming "I'm the character that's gonna cause Clem all sorts of trouble just by association." She was like Ben, in a lot of ways. She never got the chance to do anything and (if you saved her in the trailer park) she died as the result of a random accident. Just like Ben. I can't blame Sarah as much as I can blame Ben, but I just plain didn't like her.
Nick. Like Sarah, I didn't like Nick from the get go. I forgave him for almost shooting Clem, I understood the situation, but him being so trigger happy and irresponsible in that scene told me all I needed to know about his character. I marked him on the list of people Clem needs to keep away from. Nick, to me, was a combination of the worst traits of both Kenny and Ben, so there was really no hope of me ever liking him. Like Kenny, he's rash, over emotional, flies off the handle and causes problems for everyone. Like Ben, he's a complete screw up who never gets any better. Now in Nick's case, it just seems like TT didn't plan anything for him past the whole Matthew thing. Maybe if he'd actually done something in E3 or 4, I'd have a different opinion.
I'm not as up on the comics, but off the top of my head I can't stand Paul Monroe or Negan. Paul is just as ridiculously over the top as Daryl ever hopped to be, yet he seems to get universal praise. As for Negan. Good villain, but I've about had enough of him at this point. Not looking forward to him being introduced to the show.
Ben, because he was so incompetent, repeatedly. Sarah for this same reason but to a lesser degree.
Bonnie and Arvo for being straight assholes. Can't believe she blamed Clem for Luke's death when it was actually her fault. Arvo because he frickin tried to murder Clem!
I agree with you about "jesus" exact same problems as daryl. I'm looking forward to negan i'm just hoping he show can pull him off properly.
She was utterly appauling
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She was certainly more developed than most characters from season 2, I'll give you that, but that doesn't make her better in my eyes. Though I guess there is something to better development in a good character. I'll cede there, ONLY on the grounds of development.
As for her philosophies, I'm talking about how Jane actively wants to leave the weak ones behind like Sarah. That's a HUGE part of her philosophy. The strong survive together, and without the weak. Where have we heard that before? So let's talk about the differences between Crawford and Jane. actively seeks out strong people. Jane is a major character, who you have no choice in whether or not Clementine likes Jane or not (at least not for the majority of the game. Clementine, being the emotional and moral heart of the game, liking Jane therefore means that TTG is supporting Jane's philosophy in some sense. Which is the exact opposite of how Crawford was handled. Crawford was a faceless, emotionless community. The thing is, they have the exact same philosophy. Oh, just because Jane had a sister at one point means I'm supposed to overlook that TTG just rehashed a villain and made it into a major character? Bullshit.
Yeah, I guess her voice acting is subjective, but she definitely, DEFINITELY doesn't match any major characters from season 1, except maybe Lilly and Christa. Also, yes, yes they fucking are. First off, does Kenny ever actually HIT Clementine? Sure, he shouts a bit, but I don't recall him hitting her, nor Duck. The thing about Kenny is that the kids are his priority, and just because he yelled at her after someone he loved died does not make him a worse person. And racism? You mean one stereotype included as a joke? Kenny's not a racist. Trust me, I come from the armpits of California, and Kenny's NOT racist. A racist would never associate with an "urban" no matter the circumstance, and certainly would NEVER give the famous "bro speech." Not to mention, he wouldn't give two shits about Clem if he was racist. He might have a stereotype implanted in his head, but he's no fucking racist. Don't get me wrong, Kenny's a shitty person, but not for either of the reasons you claim.
Jane is certainly the worst. She's a villain reworked into being a hero with NO change whatsoever in her philosophy. Sure, I can't stand the recycling of Kenny, that was some major bullshit, but that doesn't make him a worse character than Jane. The only way he could be worse was if he actually WAS abusive to Clementine, and he actually WAS racist.
I actually don't hate any characters. I like some more than others, but I don't hate anyone
As RichWalk23 mentioned, another classic Mary Sue trait is being disliked by other characters, and every single one of those characters later being demonized and proven completely wrong by the narrative in order to vindicate the Mary Sue. So basically Kenny.
And of course, I was only referring to Season 2 Kenny. Season 1 Kenny was actually a good character.
I'm guessing you just completely ignored that wall of text of examples of Jane selflessly helping people at no personal gain? Watch the ending in which Jane decides to let the family in, not Clem. It is heavily implied she chose to help the family because she felt sympathy for the kid.
The fact that Arvo was a shitty plot device doesn't change that he was a kid. And I really don't like how often people downplay what Kenny says to Clem in Amid the Ruins. The shit he screamed at her was fucking atrocious, and quite literally verbal abuse.
"I'm not a racist, I have plenty of black friends!"
Once again, Kenny's treatment of Arvo. And I don't care that people think Kenny was "justified" in his treatment of Arvo, the only reason people think that is because Arvo randomly shot Clem for no reason to retroactively vindicate Kenny. Classic Mary Sue bullshit.
Once again, the ending in which she decides to help the family is a clear demonstration of how her character has developed into someone more empathetic thanks to Clem's influence.
I'm glad that we agree Kenny is terrible.
But Jane will always be a step up from Kenny as a character, simply because she hasn't committed the unforgivable crime of being a Jerk Sue and a blatant creator's pet.
I am surprised that no one mentioned Alvin. He was so annoying. Rebecca was fully controlling him.
Let's not forget Dee. She was also super annoying.
I missed that one, but regardless, she doesn't know their character yet. As soon as she knew that Sarah was weak, she was like, "Fuck it, leave her."
I think Kenny went overboard on his treatment of Arvo, sure, but consider that Arvo just hunted a child down. He hunted a little fucking kid, and proceeded to try to kill a LITTLE FUCKING KID. Even if all Clem did was try to make sure Arvo didn't get hurt when facing the fucking psycho Jane, he still tried to kill Clementine. I'd be kinda pissed, too. I'd probably be even more pissed if I was massively depressed and just holding it together. I also don't think that one set of verbal abuse makes someone abusive in general.
You make fun, but if he was really racist, he really wouldn't have done any of that shit. Trust me, I know plenty of true racists, and I don't think you know what racism really looks like. Feel free to inform me if you do.
I mentioned this earlier, but helping the family doesn't really prove anything. If we saw Jane saving someone who's having a panic attack, then we'd see development. Jane and Crawford both give chances for someone to prove their strength. That's why Jane stuck around after leaving Howe's. She wanted to see if there was anyone that could suit her purposes. That's my interpretation, anyways.
Eh... Kenny S2 infuriates me, and I think Kenny S1 is a huge dick, but overall, in his writing, (S1) development, and the skill of Gavin Hammon, Kenny is a pretty well done character (again, only in S1). Also, I'm not familiar with this Jerk Sue term you keep bringing up. What do you mean by that?
Kenny hasn't committed the unforgivable crime of blatant manipulation. Not on the levels that Jane did. If Jane survives, she convinces Clementine to murder someone who was totally in the right in their final moments. Remember Clementine? The sweet, kind girl? Yeah, Jane convinced Clementine to murder a motherfucker.
....
for the most part I agree with you (just in a less rude way), but I'm a kid with autism typing on a keyboard and I think you've confused autism with retardation because your making them sound like the same thing..
Anyway -on topic-, for characters I hate, I'd say... I Don't know actually, the only characters that really pissed me off at all Were Kenny (mainly due to screen-hogging) and Carver (who we were pretty much forced to hate). and those weren't neccesarily hate.
I don't see Jane as Boring, but yeah, she's definitely a bit of a moron and really unlikeable, And When I can't think of many things the character does to warrant being Liked.
On the subject of Jane however, yeah, she's a bit of a bitch.,
About the Jerk Sue comment, I just read the comment below mine, and yeah, that pretty accurately describes S2 Kenny. Not S1 Kenny, though. Whenever Kenny started to get out of line, Lee had the option of telling him to shut up. Lee didn't put up with it. Even to the point of knocking Kenny the fuck out. Everyone else, though, totally let Kenny walk on them. Up until the end of the game, Lee can tell Kenny that he hates him. Granted, Lee will be saddened by the loss of Ken's life, because Kenny truly wasn't a nonredeemable human being. There were good qualities in Kenny.
How does Arvo shooting Clementine vindicate Kenny, if Kenny was one of the primary reasons for it happening in the first place? If he didn't abuse Arvo from the beginning, he wouldn't have tried to run across the ice to get away from him. If he didn't run, Kenny wouldn't have gotten even angrier with him. If Kenny didn't get angrier, he wouldn't have gotten fed up and told him to go fuck himself then and there. If Arvo never said 'fuck you' at that specific moment, Kenny wouldn't have beaten him down as severely as he did, if he would even do it at all. He never beats Arvo down, Mike doesn't hit his breaking point and finally decide to leave, which means he never frees Arvo, which means Arvo never gets a hold of a gun, which means Arvo never shoots Clementine. Or alternatively, if Kenny never picked him up from his sister and tried to use him as a hostage, Arvo would have seen his sister reanimate, and if he didn't get bitten and killed by her first, he wouldn't blame Clementine for murdering her like he does now.
If anything, the game did punish Kenny's actions in that scenario, since he's the primary catalyst that caused Clementine to get shot in the first place; he's the one that inadvertently coaxed Arvo into shooting her. Of course, that's not to say that Arvo is by any means justified in shooting Clementine. Was shooting her a rational choice? Obviously not, because Arvo wouldn't be in any tangible state of rationality after he saw his whole group die and his sister get killed (which he still thinks Clementine straight up murdered, since he didn't know she reanimated), then got verbally/physically abused by and held captive immediately afterwards by a guy that continued to tell him that this was all his fault. If anything, it'd be more surprising if Arvo didn't do something like that when the opportunity presented itself
Also, to address another concern: how is Kenny's treatment of Arvo is racially motivated by any means? He's not beating up Arvo simply because he's russian, he's beating him up because he perceives Arvo as a threat and an enemy, and further perceives him having played a role in the shootout that nearly got everyone killed. Him calling Arvo racist terms comes secondary,. If someone started calling a woman that harmed them, their family, or other people they cared about a bunch of derogatory terms, does it automatically make them a sexist or make their treatment towards the woman primarily gender motivated? They're not hating on the person because they're a woman, they're hating on them for what they did, and the derogatory names only stem from the anger, frustration and grief the person feels at the moment. If Kenny's treatment of Arvo was truly racially motivated, he'd be doing a hell of a lot more than telling him to speak English in an insulting fashion, and he'd be saying things that are a lot more nasty than referring to him primarily as a russkie (or a "commie piece of shit" on one single occasion). Again, that's not excusing that he is indeed being discriminatory towards Arvo by pure definition, but it definitely isn't motivated by racism.
But to a degree, you're downplaying Kenny's abuse towards Arvo. I don't think there's any reason to not to believe, beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt, that Kenny's abusive treatment of Arvo acted as a primary motivator that factored into his decision to shoot Clementine. Maybe he would have shot her either way, but there is no denying that the abuse contributed heavily to that decision.
And yet that’s not how the narrative expects you to think. All those options to defend Arvo, to call Kenny out on his abuse, all of it is intended to allow the player disagree with Kenny at first, and then ultimately feel guilty for ever siding against Kenny once Arvo shoots Clem. Notice how after Clem is shot, and Kenny is going on about how he was “right all along about that Russian” and how “Mike is scum for stealing our shit and shooting a kid”, you are not given an option to disagree with him. You can either ask what happened to them, or show contempt towards them for their inexplicable betrayal. No option to agree with Jane that Kenny’s at fault for driving them away. The game does not expect you to sympathize with Arvo or Mike after the Shocking Betrayal.
It’s quite similar to what happens with Jane. She is initially presented as a sympathetic person with valid arguments against Kenny, and the player is given plenty of options to choose her over Kenny throughout the episode. But then, in the Thrilling Conclusion, Jane suddenly does something horribly immoral, completely out of character, and utterly inexplicable just to show how Kenny was truly right all along, just to make the players who previously sided against him feel terrible for ever doubting Kenny.
Compare the “You’re… dangerous Kenny. I don’t want to leave you… but I have to.” line with the “Upset? You’re fucking crazy! I’m not going anywhere with you!” line directed at Jane.
The thing about Arvo thinking Clem murdered his sister is so dumb and forced. Literally a single line from Clem explaining the situation to Arvo would’ve fixed that issue.
And the thing about Kenny’s abuse somehow motivating Arvo shooting Clem literally makes no sense the way it’s presented. No functional human being would have fired the rifle in that scenario. Arvo is trying to sneak away from the evil, abusive man. He is robbing the evil abusive man. Don’t tell that me that his traumatic experiences made his brain just cease to function for some reason; seeing as how he is whispering with Mike at the beginning of the scene, he clearly has enough sense to realize that they have to be quiet in order to escape. What would motivate him to fire a loud ass rifle in the middle of their escape, especially if Clem makes it clear she isn’t going to stop them? And the language barrier isn’t an excuse, Arvo sees Clem drop her gun on the ground.
And if Clem tries to defend Arvo throughout the episode? It makes even less sense. What would motivate him to shoot her then? She’d dropped her gun, she was being quiet, and she’d made it clear she didn’t agree with how Kenny was treating him. What would Kenny abusing Arvo have to do with him shooting Clem? Why would Arvo shoot?
To make players hate him and realize Kenny was right that he was a threat that didn’t deserve sympathy. And so the episode could have its Shocking Moment, I guess.
To say Arvo "made a decision" to shoot Clem is being generous, seeing as it happened to advance the plot with no in-universe justification
About this, I realize that Kenny’s isn’t a “racist” in the sense that he doesn’t think one race is superior to another, as far as I can tell. Maybe I should have been clearer, but the reason I brought this up was because I didn’t agree with Harpadarpa that the “offensive” subtext in some of Jane’s scenes with Sarah regarding mental illness is reason to claim Jane is a worse character than Kenny, seeing as there are plenty of aspects to Kenny’s character that can be seen as equally offensive (racially insensitive remarks, and outright child abuse).
Lol, you just described the whole of The Walking Dead Season 2. It's all dumb and forced. If we're going to argue about Kenny, I suggest we argue about S1 Kenny. At least there's a little bit more to debate there.