Missed Opportunities in TWDG
Formerly:failed-aspirations: wasted characters plots locations etcx3
Failed Aspirations: Wasted Potential
We all have our favorite things in different works of fiction that we really enjoy and want to see more of or maybe some not so favorite things that you think could've been more enjoyable. However, for one reason or another, not all of those things get the attention they probably could've had and end up left by the wayside with so much promise going to waste. Maybe it's a character who's disposition and background could've lent itself to plenty of interesting story-lines, maybe it's a plot point that could've been a lot better for everyone if it was done better, or maybe it's even a location that could've added more wonder to the story as a whole.
What are some things that you, as a consumer with a creative producer hidden inside, would've like to see be utilized more and how could it have been done so?
Note: This was originally gonna be a A New Frontier themed thread, but it can include things from/across previous Seasons/Installments as well.
June 21 Edit: Here's a fun little exercise: Top 5/10/whatver most wasted characters, whether in one season/installment or in general.
May 2 Edit: What characters, plot points, locations, or smaller elements/traits of any of the three did you find interesting and think could've used more time, focus, and/or development in the story? And in what ways could that have been done?
Comments
Never forget...
Wasted characters
Wasted plots
Wasted locations
I was gonna wait until tomorrow, but might as well check in to see how the new girls are working out.
Sarah. That will be all.
NOT!
Rufus dies no matter what, barely get's any screen time if you do not shoot him.
Doug/Carley Being there just to die so Lilly can be "developed".
Clint/Joan going missing after defending Richmond.
Sarah dying later in the episode anyway if Clem saves her.
Max is never seen again after the end of S.3 ep. 3 if he is spared.
Larry could not be revived in S.1 ep.2 even though Lily even said "He survived worse".
Chuck was killed not that long after we even met him! I really wanted to learn more about Chuck as he was one of the most interesting characters in the whole series.
Lee choosing who goes with him after Vernon has barely any effect on the story.
______________________ Here comes the big ones... be ready for a rant.
Luke... the guy was one of my favorite characters and I was waiting for a fight to boil down between Kenny and Luke. Choosing between one of them would have crushed my heart. I loved both of those characters. Jane took his place which made the choice the most easy choice in the game. Of course I am going to chose the man who is a stepfather and mentor to Clem. Jane is just some selfish person who provoked him while putting the baby in danger.
Tripp/Ava determinant does not matter. Telltale should have learned by now that we HATE it when determinant characters die no matter what. I was so pissed when I saw how little effort was put into their character after Joan kills one of them. That is not even the worst part... After they die they are forgotten 20 seconds later. I mean come on Telltale!!!
And lastly...
Kenny or Jane die. Yep, they just die because Telltale has no idea how to develop plot without killing determinants. If the game was truly based on the choices I make, Kenny/Jane would be sitting with Clem in Richmond cracking a cold one with Conrad. I just cannot believe after these characters have gone through, they have the nerve to just say "Can't do all of that work to fit them into the plot" just shows how lazy Telltale can be.
Sorry for the rant but I spoke my mind, disagree with me I do not care. These things needed to be said.
Couldn't have said it better myself!
Think of it this way:
Luke would have had a trash death scene in ANF if he went against Kenny.
At least the way it is now, you can headcanon he magically survived and be in denial like me.
Wasted characters:
- Kenny
- Jane
- Edith
- Ava
- Tripp
Wasted locations:
- Wellington
- Prescott
- Slaughterhouse
Your last paragraph is so damn good.
Why is it so hard for Telltale to keep characters alive? Do they not care about their own characters? Do they really have no better idea to handle determinant characters than just killing them off? I mean, come on. Almost every fanfiction of a teenager has better solutions to keep certain characters away from the plot for a certain amount of time. Saving characters over multiple seasons would also lead to a stronger bond with these characters, allow a plot with more depth and more connections between known and unknown characters.
A choice-based game is like a playground for any writer with high ambitions. A choice-based game with near to no gameplay (basically never ending cutscenes with some quick-time-events and interactive dialoge) are even better.
With the ressources Telltale has, it should be easy to make "bigger" games. I'm sure everyone would prefer to have less determinant characters... if the ones we have actually stay alive and remain relevant for the story. Even carry over to (an)other season(s), without being killed in a stupid, lazy way to avoid trouble with the next story.
A big problem is developing many different games at the same time. It drains ressources, energy and time that could be focused into only one or two games at the same time. The core-choice is... either sell multiple mediocre-games a year or sell one blockbuster a year.
Wasn't there a thread like this by a different person a while back?
I think Christa and Omid were wasted in season 2. For what little screen time they got, Clem could have been alone from the start especially since she never reunites with Christa even if she goes to Wellington. I also thought Howe's Hardware could have been more developed to give us pause when Carver is trying to bring Clem to his side. Like allow for more exploration and snapshots into the lives of the regular people (read: non-guards) that live happily there. It would have given the knowledge of its inevitable fall an emotional impact that is lacking. It would have been cool to flesh out the cabin group more simultaneously so there is a real internal conflict in choosing to help the cabin group escape/kill Carver. Also SARITA. She was a genuinely interesting character that could have had a story to tell. I don't like how she was sacrificed to push Kenny further toward the edge when he would have gotten himself there. I agree about the town in Amid the Ruins and to a lesser degree Arvo's group's refuge. Why wasn't the interior a hub. On the subject of Arvo, Clem should have had another opportunity to speak with him then.
In ANF Kate should have confided more details of her marriage especially if abuse was involved so the love vs blood thing was more balanced out. Tripp wasn't angry enough about Prescott's fall. In fact he just drops it after a point. You got the feeling he was a passerby like Javi rather than a defacto leader of the settlement and friend to many of its citizens. David should have had additional dialogue if saved and returns to Richmond. And what about Clint? We know little to nothing of him compared to the other directors. For someone weilding so much power he should have been developed enough for us to at least have a sense of his personality. I kinda wished David's house had been a hub too. Let us see if he had any reminders of his family around and a glimpse of what his private life has been post apocalypse.
Here's an odd example from the backburner: Troy.
As partially confirmed by his voice actor, Troy was originally gonna be a much more threatening antagonist during development, ranging from being a rejected model of Carver himself to being a politically incorrect rapist. However, due to various changes behinds the scenes, many lines and scenes that made him a far worse character were cut, including several "racy" comments and a scene where he sexually harasses/assaults Jane of all characters; this may have been done to keep things from being to intense while also making sure he didn't overshadow Carver himself. This lead to him finally becoming what he is in the game proper: just a particularly dickish hick with a bit of a temper who enjoys giving the prisoners a hard time when he isn't lazing about.
Perhaps because of these changes, his character can be seen as not being as irredeemably evil as he was envisioned--definitely a loud asshole--but not quite evil. What makes this even more apparent is the fact that, even without certain moments, there are still a select few scenes in the episode that oddly avoid supporting the original idea, even if they're often punctuated with another crude remark. These moments include:
The final point in particular is interesting because Troy was a relatively Flat Character who's whole shtick was being dick to people & enforcing Carver's will as a buttkisser--and yet his feelings for Jane of all people may have lead to him doing her favors on the side and even considered leaving his place at Howe's as a minion of Caver (who he couldn't have known was dead at the time) to be with her purely because she asked him to. I think he would've been a "nice" addition to the team had Jane not decided he outlived his usefulness. Having Troy, Mike, and Jane in the group at once would help bring forward more moral complexity to the team by having many of them be untrustworthy. Whereas Mike is a mystery due to dummied out plot elements(he would've a reformed member of the North Carolina Scavengers) and Jane is just suspicious in general, Troy had made little to no attempt to make friends with any of the Cabin, Ski Lodge, and Howe's Hardware group members(with the "exception" of Jane) and would be the token evil teammate who would have to earn the trust of the group and learn to interchange respect with others without fear and domination being the motivator. Given that he has the distinction of actually having some decent interaction with Clementine(namely grumpily saving her from walkers, slapping her for going into the comic shot after he caught her doing so before, butting her/Sarita in the face for attempting to stop Carver), it would call her willingness to trust, forgive, or begrudge into question.
You could interpret that line a number of ways, though. Especially with the look Clem gives him afterward.
I agree with most everything else you said.
Wasted characters:
Wasted ideas
-"so big it needed two parts"
-cuts out an entire scene
Walker fighting bear?
•Tripp/Ava if you spared them.
•Wellington
•Ralph, he was supposed to come back in S2 Episode 3 but it was scrapped.
•Lily in episode 5 of S1, her return was scrapped.
•Nick's mom abandoned
•Larry, his vendetta with Lee was never resolved. They had potential there.
•David Parker, he was supposed to be the one who gets his legs eaten in episode 2.
•Mark, he was supposed to be in episode 3 but get left behind in the bandit raid.
I haven't the slightest idea how that could fit in without massive re-writes of the plot
But he is alive. He just re-spawned into Minecraft Story mode.
It was mentioned on the Telltale Stream back in Novemeber: After escaping Howe's, Clementine and Luke were presumably supposed to be chasing Sarah when they ran into a bear fighting off some walkers.
I can't help but assume that was a shit joke.
He still came back...Mike just didn't reveal that he was him.
She wasn't abandoned: she got bit by a bite victim that turned and Nick had to put her down, hence his paranoia about Clementine.
That was gonna be determinant based on your choices, but true.
She was supposed to show up in a repaired RV. Not sure when that would've happened though.
Oh, definitely! What the fuck was the point of singling her out if she was just gonna work for Joan/Clint anyway.
Wasted Plots:
- Javier trying to find his family
- Clem trying to find AJ
^^^^^ Common goals, guys! Just like Telltale said in the last E3!
- A possible continuation of the Season 2 endings during the flashbacks
Wasted Characters:
- Clementine: She did have some interesting scenes near the end of the season, but overall she was just there..
- Max; He never showed up past Episode 3
- Eleanor; It seemed likely that you'd be able to develop a relationship with her from Episode 1
- Tripp; We don't really know much about who he was in Prescott
- Edith/Kenny/Jane/AJ: I was so sure that they'd be part of the Flashback storyline; they get abducted, Clem must find them, and then they eventually die in an Episode 5 flashback. Enough to feel like it was tailored, but didn't completely change the overall story to mix up Telltale. We didn't get that. We got Death, as usual.
- Mariana; She seemed like a promising character. She seemed like the Clem to our Javi, the one who we'd need to care for. Nope. SHOCKING DEATH!
- Gabe; I wanted him to develop sooner, but he only really got that a tiny bit in Episode 5. All the other moments of him was him either saying how he'll do something and mess up, or do something without warning and mess up.
- David; He should have stayed the way he was before in Episode 5. He went from tolerant of Javi's presence, and teaming up to try to overthrow the evil Joan; To absolutely not wanting to go after the evil Joan and hate Javi again for no reason. I liked him, but now I do even less. He'd better be fixed if we ever see him again.
- Kate; She finally got some development in Episode 5, like taking charge and wanting to save Richmond, but before that, she was overtly-clingy to Javi-- even after the constant refusals, and kind of dumb (running over to Mariana's dead body in a shootout, also "SORRY I DIDN'T HEAR WHAT YOU SAID! I'M GOING TO CHARGE DOWN THIS ROAD AT FULL SPEED TO FIND YOU!" [screech! crash in to wall... letting all walkers pour in. insert facepalm here)
Wasted Locations:
- (For those who got it) Wellington
- Prescott
- #NeverForgetCaprikorn
What's off is that neither Carver nor Reggie ever ask about her, even though she had to escape Howes with the rest of Cabin Group.
Yeah, that's definitely confusing. No doubt because of the writer switch and Nick's determinant status.
One of the main issues with him.
And that's one of the reasons I wasn't really a fan, unfortunately.
Yeah, not gonna lie, Gabe was the primary inspiration for this thread weeks ago for that exact reason.
They should've at least made it clear that she got away and he decided to stop chasing to help defend the people.
She couldn't here what he was saying due to all the noise and so just came to save them like she was supposed to, but a New Frontier soldier threw a molotov into her windshield and she couldn't see, prompting her to bail from the truck .
Okay.. I see. Thanks.
I present...Shades-Chick!
Credit to @Jayroen.
For the two of you who don't remember her, she's a guard working for Clint directly, fetching Max on his orders to give an account of his take on Javier, escorting Javier to the quarantine to take his group(minus the cleared Eleanor, Gabe, and Kate) out of the city, and is determinately shows up during David's confrontation of Joan, leaving in Ava's place if Javier tried to sneak out of Richmond with Kate. On my first viewing, her suspiciously similar appearance(which Javier seems to subtlely pick up on)and the fact that her mark seems to be on her armor rather than her body lead me to believe she was actually Huh-Chick in disguise, having survived the destruction of Prescott and joined the New Frontier, acting as a double-agent. On that note, it is worth noting that the mark was originally supposed to be only for soldiers of TNF, as stated by Joan in unused dialogue.
However, as revealed in an AMA by the thankful @Alyssa_TTG:
With or without this information, she seemed poised to question Joan's leadership and could've potentially helped lead an Anti-Joan Army to free David alongside Ava and determinantly Max, with her history with David/Javier as a motivator. Nonetheless, she was still seen working for Joan in Thicker than Water, guarding the street that Javier and Kate/Gabe sneaks by with her partner(where she can shoot Javier and arrest Kate/Gabe), and is later seen standing guard at David's "hearing"before taking off when David/Javier attacks Clint/Joan. And unfortunately, From the Gallows has her leading an attack on Javier at the beginning before retreating when he shoots her in the arm, complete with an appropriate grunt of pain just in case you thought it was a model fuckup. which I'm hoping is at least determinate.
Where's the first screenshot from?
Click the word Credit to go to the Screenshot thread.
Wasted Characters
Wasted Locations
So it's not actually in-game. That makes sense. Looks pretty sweet though.
I feel like exploring Hector would have been a waste of time imho. We know what happened to him. We already saw Javier have to put down family. I think the scene we got instead (while not amazing) serves better. Then again, we'll never know for certain.
Amid the Ruins town. It's brought up in conversation multiple times throughout the game, theres a map in the ruins center that even shows it across the river.
Interestingly there is an achievement that looks like we were supposed to be going there by the end of the episode....
During the dev commentary, Jason Latino episode director spoke about how they had planned something for the town.
"If you look through the viewfinder in the earlier walk scene you can see in the background the town, like the church steeple and stuff like that.... I don't know if you go there in episode 5 but that was the original location we were trying to establish this thing and then I think that the team for episode 5 found something more interesting to do... but we were trying to establish this setting"
Can't really blame him for it, it's a common thread throughout Season 2 that things were changed and straight up forgotten from prior episodes. I can safely say however that a dumb ice lake and a half built house are not interesting in comparison to a town. I'd be like if instead of Savannah in S1 we instead go to a train depot or something.
Well, they had to find SOME way to contrive the lame Kenny vs Jane conflict at the very end.
But what was the point of him in the first place? He was just there for a dramatic effect and he was never mentioned or seen again. Hell, even David doesn't ask Javi where Hector was.
to explain how Javier know how the bite works and stuff i guess
That's what i meant by her being abandoned.
Waisted Characters:
-Carley/Doug
-Christa and Omid
-All of the 400 Days characters(Nate and Eddie specifically)
-Kenny and Jane post Season 2
-Luke
-Sarah
-Nick
-Reggie
-Pete
-Carver
-Tripp/Ava
-Marianna
-Max/Lonnie
-Joan/Clint
Wasted Locations:
-The Moonstar Lodge
-Howe's Hardware
-Monroe
-Prescott