Who's a bigger "villain" Lilly (Season One) or Jane (Season Two)
These two have an on going feud with Kenny over what's right and what's not, but who do you think is a bigger "villain" in Kenny's eyes? Jane from S2 or Lilly from S1
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Lilly shot one of her own and left the group potentially stranded.
Jane killed a baby (supposedly) and then tried to kill Kenny, potentially endangering an eleven-year-old.
I would say Jane. And to be fair, Kenny did kill Lilly's father.
Most definitely Jane, when considering that her 'baby death' trick in the S2 finale was what instigated a fight to the death between the two.
Lilly was just an opposition to Kenny, at least until Kenny's own actions is what arguably drove Lilly into villainy when Kenny kills her father in a panic.
Certainly Jane. Pretending that a baby was dead to antagonize Kenny and then trying to kill him is pretty disgusting.
Neither of them are a villain. But if i have to choose who I dislike the most, I choose Lilly.
Probably in Kenny's weak mind...Jane. Lilly was no villain, she was having a mental breakdown and did something horrible in a heated moment. Of course that does Doug/Carley no good as they are dead. I would say in that case both Kenny and Lilly share some of the blame. Oh and that fucking Ben.
Jane was a victim of bad writing and character change, because up to the house...she was very much a Kenny supporter in the ways she wanted Clem to talk to Kenny.
Oh. I thought this was a personal view thing.
But Jane either way and then some.
Also, I think it says something that Kenny actually eventually expresses a very brief hint of regret regarding Lily despite their differences.
Was she?
Yes...she even got Kenny and Mike to stop arguing on the way due to Kenny's abuse of that Devil Arvo.
Really wouldn't call that her supporting Kenny so much as one of the few times they pushed the idea that Clementine changed her.
Also, calling Arvo a devil, especially at that point, sounds weird.
Well knowing what he would do to Clem later on sure he comes off as a villain.
Jane. She pretended that AJ is dead just to prove a point. That was disgusting.
Lilly was never a villain.
This. What Jane did was purely a spiteful move because she wanted to prove her point at any cost. Lilly was a genuine character you could sympathize with.
This.
Lillys reactions to what happened to her, and what Kenny did to her was mostly fair I think, its very unfortunate that she ended up killing an innocent woman in her grief/anger (something I still wont forgive her for, even if I can understand kinda why she did it with how much pressure she was under), Jane on the other hand willingly and knowingly instigated a fight to the death that was unnecessary and stupid, just so she could prove a point, a point that turned out to be moot anyways.
Jane is a fucking lunatic, Lilly, while doing bad things, was mostly a response to the terrible things that happened to her
Jane didn't do anything wrong. She exposed Kenny for the psycho he had become. Her methods may have been a bit extreme, but it proved her point. Kenny was gonna snap and try to kill everyone eventually, better to expedite that and deal with it in relative safety when it can somewhat be controlled instead of having him snap in the middle of a chaotic battle or when dealing with a herd.
In an "Then let me be evil" sense, perhaps. And even that's questionable due to how perspective based and rushed into it was.
EDIT: Oh, I just realized that was you, Shoula.
Oh for f@#*'s sakes...
Agreed
Probably Jane story wise and from Kenny's view.
Lily had every right to hate Kenny, and Kenny was aware of what his actions did. And even so Lily didnt try to kill Kenny over it, while Jane basically decided to pretend she let Aj die so Kenny would attack her with her intent to kill Kenny because she knew it would go there. Kenny didnt like Jane, but he was willing to put up with her, while Jane decided to just start a fight so she could try and kill him. Basically Lily had way more of a reason to hate Kenny and to want him dead, but was able to control herself to some degree, over Jane who was more or less just "Kenny is a DICK >:("
And because "Fuck the Patriarchy!" Never forget that.
So, this has been a thing that has annoyed me for a long time and I'm going to get a lot of crap for saying this but I'm going to say it anyways. Why does everybody demonize Jane and idolize Kenny? Kenny has a much bigger fanbase but when you look at the facts he isn't any better than Jane and that's what makes both of them good characters. Most of my comments probably give off the impression that I love Jane and dislike Kenny but this isn't the case. I love both of these characters equally. However, it bothers the crap out of me how Kenny tends to be viewed as the "good" person and Jane tends to be viewed as the "evil" person.
Yeah the whole dead baby trick was 100% disgusting and there is no justifying it. Jane is certainly no angel but Kenny isn't any better. Kenny's the one who tried to kill Jane not the other way round. There is no justifying what Jane did but Jane never planned on killing Kenny she just wanted to prove just how dangerous Kenny was and unintentionaly she also displayed how dangerous she was. Jane even admits that what she did was wrong if she isn't stabbed by Kenny. After he thought that Jane had killed AJ he attacked her without even giving her a chance to explain. This showed how unstable and pyscho he had become. Kenny's the one who tried to kill her! Jane may have provoked the fight but Kenny's the one who actually got violent with the intention of killing her. Yes Jane fought back and gave into her rage against Kenny. What was she supposed to do? Just let him kill her? This whole ordeal proved that both Kenny and Jane are equally dangerous.
Let us take a moment to reflect on the things Kenny has done...
Kenny:
Kenny kills Larry before he even knew for sure that Larry was dead. Even if all of the people in the fridge unanimously vote for Larry to live Kenny doesn't give a shit and kills him anyways. Oh and lets not forget the best part of it all is that Kenny smashes Larry's head right in front of an innocent eight-year-old!
In S1 episode 3 Kenny convinces or tries to convince Lee to let that girl die a painful death as she is devoured by walkers so they could use her suffering as bait to get extra time to loot.
At the end of S1 episode 4 Kenny only volunteers to help save Clementine if Lee had sided with him in every single major choice as well as every single petty argument. Calling Lee selfish for not holding his hand and siding with him absolutely 100% of the time. Kenny cared more about how the now dying Lee had previously treated him than the fact that innocent Clementine who had never done anything wrong to Kenny was being held captive by some stalker in city full of walking corpses. Jane definitely has some selfish qualities but so does Kenny.
In Season 2 episode 3 Kenny wastes valuable time torturing Carver. Yes Carver deserved every second of it but Kenny was holding up the group as they were approached by walkers wasting time just so he could blow off steam when he could have simply killed Carver and be done with it.
There is plenty more stuff to write about but I'm sick of writing.
So yeah, I don't think Kenny is any better than Jane and has done just as much if not more awful things than her. Please think of all of the bad things Kenny has done before you demonize Jane and idolize Kenny. All in all, I think they are both very strong, memorable, and well-written characters. I really bashed on Kenny and built up Jane just now but I loved both of these characters equally their good qualities as well as their flaws is what makes them such good characters. I loved both of their arcs and it was a shame how they were handled in ANF.
I completely agree with what you said i like them both equally.But i think people like Kenny more because he's been with us since season 1.That doesn't help that Kenny is portrayed as a complete hero in the season 3 flashbacks like nothing happened and he died protecting AJ,but Jane's death was completely out of character "i'm gonna take a nap" boom she died, It's like a middle finger to all the people who liked her.
I agree they were both handled lazily in ANF but Kenny's death was at least in character. Jane is selfish but she genuinly grows to care about Clementine throughout season 2 despite her previous outlook on life. Towards the end of season 2 Jane promises to Clementine that she will never abandon her again and then in ANF they made her do exactly that! That was just so out of character such lazy writing and completely unforgivable. I originally got the alone ending and I'm glad I did because it wasn't as butchered as the other endings.
The reason I chose the alone ending is because I really grew an attachment to both Kenny and Jane during season 2 the choice for me was so devastating. When the fight broke out between the two I tried to stay as neutral as possible. In the end, as much as I loved Kenny I wasn't just going to sit by and let him kill Jane. I chose to shoot him but I felt so awful when I did it. The worst part about it all was that before he died he forgives Clem telling her that she only did what she had to. As sad and tragic as this is, it is my favorite ending to his story. For me it wasn't as sad as the Lee death but it was pretty dang close especially because he doesn't go out the same way as Lee in this version. He doesn't die a hero and that is the tragedy of it all. When I found out that Jane had staged the AJ incident I was so pissed. She proved that Kenny had lost it and was dangerous however, in that act she also displayed how dangerous she was. As much as I loved Jane my Clementine couldn't stand being around her after she had caused Clem to kill her oldest living friend. My version of Clem decided to raise AJ on her own, taking half a page from Kenny and half a page from Jane. I did feel bad about leaving Jane but I was too angry to choose the other option. This is also my favorite way Jane's story can end. This is by far my favorite version of the alone ending and favorite season 2 ending in general.
Yeah i did the same when i played the game,i think it's the best ending for Jane and it makes sense for Clem to act like she does in season 3.
That was how my first playthrough originally ended, actually. Felt good to finally be able to directly stand up to her and have it really mean something.
And then I looked up the other ending possibilities and rewound to make a more final sacrifice. Still kinda wish there was another way.
In Kenny's eyes, it seems anyone who disagrees with his opinions and ideologies is villainous and he's willing to let them die, overall, I'd say Jane though, due to the ending of Season 2 and their fight over AJ, also I think Kenny was getting jealous of Clementine spending time with Jane.
In Season One, Lilly never personally did anything to Kenny or his family which is what he cared about over all else, even though she did kill a member of the group and her father incited an argument over Duck upon first meeting.
Season One was great at showing how people weren't heroes or villains, just survivors, just alive as Chuck said, but Season Two diverged from that and started depicting characters who were more black or white like Carver and Luke in my opinion. Plus I'm still stingy that they forgot the town they planned to head off to at the end of Episode 4.
Agreed and Jane isn't solely responsible for the fight. Kenny's actions lead to the group dissolving and to Jane changing her perspective on Kenny and it was Kenny's own quick assumptions and anger that began the fight giving no time to actually question Jane. He didn't consider how easy it could've been for a baby to die in a snowstorm full of walkers, I'm actually surprised she managed to keep AJ alive to be honest.
Agreed! Almost every post I've seen calls Jane a villain just for the ending of Season Two, forgetting everything she did for the group prior to her fight with Kenny. Jane is far from being a pure person and so is Kenny, they've both gone through allot and had to learn to toughen up in their own ways. For Jane, it's being a lone wolf, for Kenny, it's asserting authority.
Jane's actions aren't justified but I think I can understand why she may have thought it was a good idea. Kenny proved he was a danger to Clementine and to AJ and she may have felt the need to step in. After Sarita's loss she was visibly worried about Kenny's mentality, even to the point where she offers Rebecca a gun in self defense, then later on when she returns she tries to keep the peace by calming people down, she was visibly angered by Kenny's unnecessary treatment of Arvo who, from what she knew of the situation, was not exactly involved in the gunfight and was defenseless.
Jane felt remorse for killing Vitali (thus saving Kenny by the way) because he never did anything to her, which may explain why she felt so strongly against Kenny's bullying over Arvo, she doesn't believe he deserved it since he never fired a gun and she even felt remorse after the first time Arvo showed up. Jane seems to have a take action first response to situations, like when Clementine falls in the river and Jane automatically tries to get her out.
It's one of Jane's flaws, she doesn't think about her actions and often regrets them afterwards and in situations where her survival mentality conflicts with her morality, such as at the trailer park or observation deck, she looks to others for guidance, being a lone wolf, I'm not surprised how conflicted she seems to feel about most things.
Then when it came to Kenny's argument with everyone else at Arvo's lodge, I believe that's when she decided that Kenny was a threat and in her viewpoint he attempted to be a dictator, bullied a defenseless kid and blamed him for his problems, was mentally unhinged and she may have even feared that he would kill someone out of frustration as he almost does with Arvo. In her mind, Kenny was probably a danger to Clementine and AJ. I certainly would question how much I can trust a guy who beats a teenager to near death without remorse and incites an argument with anyone who so much as thinks differently from him. I mean, he scared Mike and determinanty Bonnie away and he could've easily prevented the scenarios going forward but one of Kenny's character flaws is that he's often self righteous.
In the end, I think Jane just saw Kenny as a threatening liability, much like how Kenny saw Larry, Ben and Jane as ones himself.
Kenny hated Lilly but I think he understood her a bit more then Jane, who seems to have a vendetta about being 'right about him' and pushing him to simply push him. It wasn't that they didn't see eye to eye, but it was that she was actively trying to undermine him or treat him like an asshole.
Not that it wasn't deserved.
But I think Kenny felt Jane was a true enemy, not just someone that he butted heads with.
Haha another moronic Kenny hater! Jane didn’t do anything wrong??? Hahahaha!
So Kenny is a psycho eh? So you think it’s not psychotic putting a baby’s life in danger as well as Clementine’s, all to prove a point when she didn’t need to do anything at all because Kenny would never ever physically hurt Clementine or the baby. Kenny only threatened people who he felt were a danger to him (Carver, Arvo, Jane are examples). Ha, the psycho here is Jane for even wanting to rile up an unstable man, putting a baby in a freezing car, alone. It was sick what she did and I don’t blame Kenny’s reaction one bit when all she had to do was tell Clem and Kenny after he got angry that the baby was fine, but as Kenny said, she wanted a fight. I know what he was doing wrong but the man was pushed cruelly as far as i am concerned.
The whole scene was created badly anyway and has sparked so many furious arguments i have lost count of.
By the way, if Kenny was an actual psycho he wouldn’t have had a conscience and yet time after time he has been shown to have one, like the Wellington ending is a classic example of this.
Jane tries to kill Kenny too, don’t forget that. After she slashed him with the knife and he was backing off, SHE chose to charge at him when she didnt need to. The fight could have ended there but no
I think it was the other way round actually. Jane was jealous and annoyed that Clem wouldn’t leave Kenny and go with her. Otherwise she had no reason to fake the baby’s death. Kenny didn’t like Clem getting close to Jane due to feeling she isn’t trustworthy and maybe a bad influence such as when she tried to get Clem to drink the rum.
And I think saying that Kenny leaves everyone to die who disagrees with him is a bit extreme. I disagree. Sorry
Because Kenny is a Season 1 character whose whole shtick was doing whatever it takes to protect fundamental values, with his increasing descent into being a pigheaded violent asshole being tragic and pitiful. Even as he became an overexposed spotlight-hog that was increasingly unlikable, there was at least be taken some minute comfort to be taken in that he was a rabid animal struggling to succeed in his tunnelvision'd view of the right thing.
Jane, on the otherhand, was introduced as an edgy, coldblooded loner who was initially upfront about not giving a shit about anyone but herself, only for subsequent attempts to make you feel sorry for her while still maintaining her as a hardcore badass only served to expose her as an increasingly unsympathetic borderline sociopath. Even the developers who collectively had some hand in previously making her a bigger Creator's Pet than they were treating Kenny released what a shallow sue she ultimately was and opted to get rid of her as quickly as possible rather than sleep in the bed they made.
In Kenny's eyes it would obviously be Jane.
I, on the other hand always hated Lily, but originally liked Jane.
How about you respect other people's opinions instead of attacking them?
And you said in your other post that Jane charge to him but what was she supposed to do ? Just let him kill her ? He clearly started the fight,he could have listened but no.
It doesn't really matter anymore because they're both dead now.
Oh I haven't forgotten. But as I recall Kenny attacked her first and didn't even give her a chance to explain herself. This was also completely unneccesary. Jane warned Kenny to back off or else she would fight back. Kenny didn't even warn her he just charged her before he even knew the full story. The AJ set up was sick and there is absolutely no justifying it but she didn't hurt the baby she made sure he was safe. She saved AJ from the blizzard and the walkers.
The fact of the matter is that Kenny is the one who actually tried to kill her first. She may have picked the fight but Kenny's the one who actualy threw the first punch. After that, Jane gave into her rage and tried to kill him but that doesn't change the fact that he was the first person to give into violence and tried to kill her first. Kenny is the one who can determinantly kill Jane not the other way round. I'm not a Kenny hater. I honestly find him to be the third most memorable character after Lee and Clementine. I like Kenny and Jane equally. Like I said earlier I chose to save Jane but when I found out that she staged AJ's death I made my Clementine leave her. The fact of the matter is they are both equally dangerous and have done equally terrible things. It just annoys me how people are so quick to excuse Kenny of all the bad things he has done and refuse to give Jane the same treatment.
And my opinion is that person was moronic in saying that Jane didn’t do anything wrong. I respect people who actually make sensible and critical posts.
Jane slashed Kenny, and he started backing off outside so why did she decide to continue the fight when she could have ended it there and then? She had the knife, he was now not a threat but she chose to charge towards him. Jane caused the fight to happen. He could have listened?? Would you believe a word Jane said if you didn’t like or trust her as Kenny clearly didn’t? It’s like j said, i do not blame him for his reaction. What Jane did was sickening.
Would you believe someone if you didn’t like or trust them? That’s how it was with Kenny. Jane had plenty of chances to come clean, instead she said “it was an accident” which was a lie right there
She put him in a freezing car, alone. Supposing walkers heard/smelt him and pushed through the gap in the window that Jane left? It wasn’t safe at all! It was naive of her and she knew it and all she cared about was trying to change Clem’s mind about her friend. If she truly cared about the baby AND Clementine, she wouldn’t have faked his death in the first place or put Clem in danger needlessly. Fuck Jane.:
I understand why you would feel like that. I don’t excuse all the things he’s done but without sounding biased here, my view is that “most” of the time in my opinion he was right about the decisions he made, not all the time but most. Even if it made him look like an asshole a lot. The attachment to a Season 1 character obviously plays a part in it as well. It wasn’t just that fight scene as to why I don’t like Jane, there are a lot of reasons which i have explained endlessly in the past