No but I do feel like he was given Kenny's scrapped villain arc from back when he was supposed to be Carver.
If anything, Javier was the creator's pet.
In terms of emotion vs logic, is this scaling of each Group about right?
Duck Larry Kenny Molly Ben [Glenn] Omid Lilly Clementine Lee … moreChrista Doug Katjaa Chuck
Becca Wyatt Bonnie Shel Vince
[S2!Kenny] Sarah Nick Rebecca Luke [Clementine] Jane Arvo Mike Bonnie Pete Alvin Carlos
Gabe David Tripp Conrad Max [ANF!Clementine] Eleanor Javier Kate Ava [Paul]
>
This is actually supposed to be a Red Oni, Blue Oni setup that I specified/downplayed so people wouldn't be too confused.
Hence why I placed Ben, Molly, Luke, Arvo, Bonnie, and Jane the way I did.
Meanwhile, Tripp and Conrad were based solely on the later/majority episodes and I considered making that distinction clear using separate placements for Tripp. And Javier strikes me as being more outgoing and willing to let his emotions flow out than Kate, who seemed more melancholic with a tendency to let other people's initiative take precedent over her own most of the time(ergo, when her feelings for him and David weren't openly apparent).
This is actually supposed to be a Red Oni, Blue Oni setup that I specified/downplayed so people wouldn't be too confused.
Hence why I place… mored Ben, Molly, Luke, Arvo, Bonnie, and Jane the way I did.
Meanwhile, Tripp and Conrad were based solely on the later/majority episodes and I considered making that distinction clear using separate placements for Tripp. And Javier strikes me as being more outgoing and willing to let his emotions flow out than Kate, who seemed more melancholic with a tendency to let other people's initiative take precedent over her own most of the time(ergo, when her feelings for him and David weren't openly apparent).
To be fair, he was gonna be a new playable protagonist alongside Clementine--they kinda had to market him. And if what I learned last night truly was the case, then they were also compensating for the opportunity they didn't go with.
Besides, a Creator's Pet is defined by how the Creator gives a lot of excess attention and credentials to a character that has little to do with what the story is supposed to be about, it doesn't really make sense to do so with for whatever reason, and/or at the blatant expense of other characters--Ergo, S2!Kenny and Jane.
That's not really the specific definition/laconic TVTropes goes with, I don't think, but it covers enough of it to be objective and efficient.
Recall Kevin Bruner at the VGA where they showed the first clip from ANF. He was practically gushing over this new character Javi despite 99.9% of people watching it for Clementine. Even the title "A New Frontier" practically screamed at fans that they should focus on the new character and begin moving away from Clem, I feel like the whole season was initially designed for Javi. In fact im pretty sure that Clem would have been killed off in s3 if it wasn't for the extremely negative fan reactions in regards to her treatment.
To be fair, he was gonna be a new playable protagonist alongside Clementine--they kinda had to market him. And if what I learned last night … moretruly was the case, then they were also compensating for the opportunity they didn't go with.
Besides, a Creator's Pet is defined by how the Creator gives a lot of excess attention and credentials to a character that has little to do with what the story is supposed to be about, it doesn't really make sense to do so with for whatever reason, and/or at the blatant expense of other characters--Ergo, S2!Kenny and Jane.
That's not really the specific definition/laconic TVTropes goes with, I don't think, but it covers enough of it to be objective and efficient.
Recall Kevin Bruner at the VGA where they showed the first clip from ANF. He was practically gushing over this new character Javi despite 99… more.9% of people watching it for Clementine. Even the title "A New Frontier" practically screamed at fans that they should focus on the new character and begin moving away from Clem, I feel like the whole season was initially designed for Javi. In fact im pretty sure that Clem would have been killed off in s3 if it wasn't for the extremely negative fan reactions in regards to her treatment.
Well given the backdoor reviews and internal conflicts within Telltale, we know that the artistic vision that many employees had for the game was often ignored and overridden by upper management. I highly doubt that having a new character as the main focus over Clem was supported by a majority of the employees but look at what we got.
As for Clementine's death, how can you say for certain that Clem wasn't being planned to die when episodes 1 and 1.5 came out? Clem was reckless and cold when the season first released, and after the fan outcry she was written as more level headed and back to her somewhat normal self. I feel like she was planned as a secret antagonist character who would tragically die but Telltale decided against it. 95% sure that AJ was going to be discovered dead and that Clem would snap and we would be placed in a Kenny/Jane situation.
Do you honestly believe that they initially had a s4 with Clementine planned? Or is it more likely that they realized their mistake and that they needed to hastily redeem themselves?
He was practically gushing over this new character Javi despite 99.9% of people watching it for Clementine.
Not really sure how(if a… moret all) I should feel about that given my lack of context, but I reinforce what I said--it was kinda his job at the time.
Even the title "A New Frontier" practically screamed at fans that they should focus on the new character
It also distinguished it from the other Seasons. For the better even.
I feel like the whole season was initially designed for Javi.
Change initially to retroactively and I can partially agree.
In fact im pretty sure that Clem would have been killed off in s3 if it wasn't for the extremely negative fan reactions in regards to her treatment.
Okay, you know and I know that Telltale wouldn't do that, so don't even go there.
Now, for the Final Season, well....
Clem was reckless and cold when the season first released, and after the fan outcry she was written as more level headed and back to her somewhat normal self. I feel like she was planned as a secret antagonist character who would tragically die but Telltale decided against it. 95% sure that AJ was going to be discovered dead and that Clem would snap and we would be placed in a Kenny/Jane situation
...You know, you're not far off the possible mark.
Cause yeah, it did more or less look like it could [determinately] go in that direction given the menu screens and the fact that Javier is the main playable character would NOT have boded well for that direction.
Cause I honestly don't think the alternate ending to that would've gone over well at all either.
Do you honestly believe that they initially had a s4 with Clementine planned?
Yes. Maybe. She's the mascot, dude. And Telltale, like every company, likes money.
Well given the backdoor reviews and internal conflicts within Telltale, we know that the artistic vision that many employees had for the gam… moree was often ignored and overridden by upper management. I highly doubt that having a new character as the main focus over Clem was supported by a majority of the employees but look at what we got.
As for Clementine's death, how can you say for certain that Clem wasn't being planned to die when episodes 1 and 1.5 came out? Clem was reckless and cold when the season first released, and after the fan outcry she was written as more level headed and back to her somewhat normal self. I feel like she was planned as a secret antagonist character who would tragically die but Telltale decided against it. 95% sure that AJ was going to be discovered dead and that Clem would snap and we would be placed in a Kenny/Jane situation.
Do you honestly believe that they initially had a s4 with Clementine planned? Or is … [view original content]
Yeah but they clearly lost sight of things by the time ANF came out. I firmly believe that a final season with Clem was not planned at first and that it is their way to save their asses at this point.
Clem was reckless and cold when the season first released, and after the fan outcry she was written as more level headed and back to her som… moreewhat normal self. I feel like she was planned as a secret antagonist character who would tragically die but Telltale decided against it. 95% sure that AJ was going to be discovered dead and that Clem would snap and we would be placed in a Kenny/Jane situation
...You know, you're not far off the possible mark.
Cause yeah, it did more or less look like it could [determinately] go in that direction given the menu screens and the fact that Javier is the main playable character would NOT have boded well for that direction.
Cause I honestly don't think the alternate ending to that would've gone over well at all either.
Do you honestly believe that they initially had a s4 with Clementine planned?
Yes. Maybe. She's the mascot, dude. And Telltale, like every company, likes money.
Pretty much. She spent most of the last three episodes doing mostly nothing, with Thicker than Water and especially From the Gallows being the biggest offenders.
Yeah but they clearly lost sight of things by the time ANF came out. I firmly believe that a final season with Clem was not planned at first and that it is their way to save their asses at this point.
I scoffed when the last thing we saw of the entire season was "Clementine's story will continue..." because it was so obvious that they knew how badly they fucked up and that they needed to reassure players to stuck around somehow. No Telltale game has ever been so obvious about a sequel and it just shows how poor of an idea Javier turned out to be
Pretty much. She spent most of the last three episodes doing mostly nothing, with Thicker than Water and especially From the Gallows being the biggest offenders.
I scoffed when the last thing we saw of the entire season was "Clementine's story will continue..." because it was so obvious that they knew how badly they fucked up and that they needed to reassure players to stuck around somehow.
Eh, more like they realized that they left that particular plot hanging loose towards the end and just decided to focus on (sloppily) wrapping up ANF instead of worrying about it then and there.
No Telltale game has ever been so obvious about a sequel
You mean Season 1 didn't end with a fairly obvious "What now?" scene?
it just shows how poor of an idea Javier turned out to be
Eh, debatable. The number of bad ideas in the world are fairly limited and basic; the potential for questionable execution, on the other hand, is numerous.
I scoffed when the last thing we saw of the entire season was "Clementine's story will continue..." because it was so obvious that they knew… more how badly they fucked up and that they needed to reassure players to stuck around somehow. No Telltale game has ever been so obvious about a sequel and it just shows how poor of an idea Javier turned out to be
Most Telltale games end on obvious cliffhangers. ANF is the only one that has to flat out say there would be another game soon. And so you say they forgot their most important plot point involving their mascot character? I rest my case.
I scoffed when the last thing we saw of the entire season was "Clementine's story will continue..." because it was so obvious that they knew… more how badly they fucked up and that they needed to reassure players to stuck around somehow.
Eh, more like they realized that they left that particular plot hanging loose towards the end and just decided to focus on (sloppily) wrapping up ANF instead of worrying about it then and there.
No Telltale game has ever been so obvious about a sequel
You mean Season 1 didn't end with a fairly obvious "What now?" scene?
it just shows how poor of an idea Javier turned out to be
Eh, debatable. The number of bad ideas in the world are fairly limited and basic; the potential for questionable execution, on the other hand, is numerous.
ANF is the only one that has to flat out say there would be another game soon.
True, as far as I know.
And so you say they forgot their most important plot point involving their mascot character? I rest my case.
Hey, for what it's worth, I'm one of the people who didn't like what resulted from that, repeatedly questioned why she is in the game at the point or even to begin with, and recently wondered what was keeping them from giving her one or two playable sections in the finale.
Most Telltale games end on obvious cliffhangers. ANF is the only one that has to flat out say there would be another game soon. And so you say they forgot their most important plot point involving their mascot character? I rest my case.
I haven't tested it out personally, but it apparently has to do with the choices you make, during her flashbacks, (accepting or not accepting Ava's offer to join NF. Injecting or not injecting AJ. Spitting in David's face.) Do you remember which ones you made?
I haven't tested it out personally, but it apparently has to do with the choices you make, during her flashbacks, (accepting or not acceptin… moreg Ava's offer to join NF. Injecting or not injecting AJ. Spitting in David's face.) Do you remember which ones you made?
It'll result in a zigzaggy tonal disarray of an ending that unnecessarily outright kill off one of the very few characters to get considerable development and goes to show what shallow, "fanservice-y," joke of a leech the so-called mascot has become.
Gabe's a piece of shit. He calls you out in front of everyone, if you shoot Conrad, even though he had a gun on him; and calls you a coward if you don't shoot Conrad. His relationship with Clem is one of the worst and most forced things they've ever done in this series. He deserves to die. Kate is just a straight up thot. The less chance Javi's family has of appearing in TFS, the better.
Uh, no it fuckin won't.
It'll result in a zigzaggy tonal disarray of an ending that unnecessarily outright kill off one of the very few c… moreharacters to get considerable development and goes to show what shallow, "fanservice-y," joke of a leech the so-called mascot has become.
He calls you out in front of everyone, if you shoot Conrad, even though he had a gun on him;
Oh, don't get me wrong, pretty much everyone agrees the way that scene was executed was bullshit.
With that said, I still stand by my belief that it was a perfectly good scene story AND gameplay-wise to not only truly delve into Gabe's less obvious characteristics(particularly his exact moral beliefs) along with the group's opinions of Javier's choices, and "redeem" the determinant relationships system if it actually took said relationship with Gabe(plus maybe Clementine and Tripp) into account , lined up in a mostly logical way, potentially came with the option to actually side with Gabe as oppose to just straight up flaking on him no matter what, and actually made it mean something in a longer term than just until they get the truck rolled out for hotwiring.
and calls you a coward if you don't shoot Conrad.
To be fair, that was in the immediate moment and he shuts up about it almost as quickly.
...And the rest of the game.
Another example of a perfectly wasted detail for the character/story arc(s) to develop, no doubt.
His relationship with Clem is one of the worst and most forced things they've ever done in this series
I always saw it for what it was: an incredibly lazy, cheap, and trendy way to make Clementine feel relevant and "important" in the plot of two episodes that honestly had zero to do with her and saw her do almost as much of actual worth.
Jane, easily. For being one of the two characters that essentially stole all the development of other characters, that season, after she appeared.
Yeah, part of me definitely says that clinging to that makes the most sense in the long term.
Not really sure how you believe it is the best ending. Every ending where Clem and Javi go together seem so loosely thrown together and going to save Richmond is a complete letdown compared to Javi taking on a large group of walkers by himself.
Tbh the best ending would be Javi going after David and Gabe alone. It actually wraps up all their arcs rather nicely and has enough action and mystery to be considered a real Walking Dead ending.
Not really sure how you believe it is the best ending. Every ending where Clem and Javi go together seem so loosely thrown together and goin… moreg to save Richmond is a complete letdown compared to Javi taking on a large group of walkers by himself.
Tbh the best ending would be Javi going after David and Gabe alone. It actually wraps up all their arcs rather nicely and has enough action and mystery to be considered a real Walking Dead ending.
Thats not actually a good reason why it's the best ending, that's just negative metagaming. The best ending should be the one that does the story and the character arcs the most justice, which is the one I described.
Comments
All That Remains? Probably 2nd best episode in Season 2.
Pun intended.
...How?
In terms of emotion vs logic, is this scaling of each Group about right?
>
I’d swap molly for Ben, Arvo for Luke, Jane for Bonnie, Tripp for Conrad and Javier for Kate
This is actually supposed to be a Red Oni, Blue Oni setup that I specified/downplayed so people wouldn't be too confused.
Hence why I placed Ben, Molly, Luke, Arvo, Bonnie, and Jane the way I did.
Meanwhile, Tripp and Conrad were based solely on the later/majority episodes and I considered making that distinction clear using separate placements for Tripp. And Javier strikes me as being more outgoing and willing to let his emotions flow out than Kate, who seemed more melancholic with a tendency to let other people's initiative take precedent over her own most of the time(ergo, when her feelings for him and David weren't openly apparent).
My brain’s officially going in circles ?
Yeah, it took a fair bit of thinking to end up with that order.
Here, maybe this will help.
Because the creator's clearly favored him over Clementine and tried very hard to market him leading up to the release
To be fair, he was gonna be a new playable protagonist alongside Clementine--they kinda had to market him. And if what I learned last night truly was the case, then they were also compensating for the opportunity they didn't go with.
Besides, a Creator's Pet is defined by how the Creator gives a lot of excess attention and credentials to a character that has little to do with what the story is supposed to be about, it doesn't really make sense to do so with for whatever reason, and/or at the blatant expense of other characters--Ergo, S2!Kenny and Jane.
That's not really the specific definition/laconic TVTropes goes with, I don't think, but it covers enough of it to be objective and efficient.
Recall Kevin Bruner at the VGA where they showed the first clip from ANF. He was practically gushing over this new character Javi despite 99.9% of people watching it for Clementine. Even the title "A New Frontier" practically screamed at fans that they should focus on the new character and begin moving away from Clem, I feel like the whole season was initially designed for Javi. In fact im pretty sure that Clem would have been killed off in s3 if it wasn't for the extremely negative fan reactions in regards to her treatment.
Not really sure how(if at all) I should feel about that given my lack of context, but I reinforce what I said--it was kinda his job at the time.
It also distinguished it from the other Seasons. For the better even.
Change initially to retroactively and I can partially agree.
Okay, you know and I know that Telltale wouldn't do that, so don't even go there.
Now, for the Final Season, well....
Well given the backdoor reviews and internal conflicts within Telltale, we know that the artistic vision that many employees had for the game was often ignored and overridden by upper management. I highly doubt that having a new character as the main focus over Clem was supported by a majority of the employees but look at what we got.
As for Clementine's death, how can you say for certain that Clem wasn't being planned to die when episodes 1 and 1.5 came out? Clem was reckless and cold when the season first released, and after the fan outcry she was written as more level headed and back to her somewhat normal self. I feel like she was planned as a secret antagonist character who would tragically die but Telltale decided against it. 95% sure that AJ was going to be discovered dead and that Clem would snap and we would be placed in a Kenny/Jane situation.
Do you honestly believe that they initially had a s4 with Clementine planned? Or is it more likely that they realized their mistake and that they needed to hastily redeem themselves?
...You know, you're not far off the possible mark.
Cause yeah, it did more or less look like it could [determinately] go in that direction given the menu screens and the fact that Javier is the main playable character would NOT have boded well for that direction.
Cause I honestly don't think the alternate ending to that would've gone over well at all either.
Yes. Maybe. She's the mascot, dude. And Telltale, like every company, likes money.
Yeah but they clearly lost sight of things by the time ANF came out. I firmly believe that a final season with Clem was not planned at first and that it is their way to save their asses at this point.
Pretty much. She spent most of the last three episodes doing mostly nothing, with Thicker than Water and especially From the Gallows being the biggest offenders.
I scoffed when the last thing we saw of the entire season was "Clementine's story will continue..." because it was so obvious that they knew how badly they fucked up and that they needed to reassure players to stuck around somehow. No Telltale game has ever been so obvious about a sequel and it just shows how poor of an idea Javier turned out to be
Eh, more like they realized that they left that particular plot hanging loose towards the end and just decided to focus on (sloppily) wrapping up ANF instead of worrying about it then and there.
You mean Season 1 didn't end with a fairly obvious "What now?" scene?
Eh, debatable. The number of bad ideas in the world are fairly limited and basic; the potential for questionable execution, on the other hand, is numerous.
Most Telltale games end on obvious cliffhangers. ANF is the only one that has to flat out say there would be another game soon. And so you say they forgot their most important plot point involving their mascot character? I rest my case.
True, as far as I know.
Hey, for what it's worth, I'm one of the people who didn't like what resulted from that, repeatedly questioned why she is in the game at the point or even to begin with, and recently wondered what was keeping them from giving her one or two playable sections in the finale.
Okay, moment of truth time: after the fight with David, Clementine was convinced by Kate that saving Richmond is more important.
What did I do wrong?
I haven't tested it out personally, but it apparently has to do with the choices you make, during her flashbacks, (accepting or not accepting Ava's offer to join NF. Injecting or not injecting AJ. Spitting in David's face.) Do you remember which ones you made?
Accepted Ava, Didn't inject Ava, Spit on David. Also, shook Ava's hand.
Then you got her to follow Kate.
Might just be easier to show you this: http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/From_The_Gallows#Season_3
Wait, this doesn't make sense--I'm pretty sure I accepted Ava and I know I didn't inject AJ.
She'll follow Kate if she's, "just" (If you accept Ava's offer, obey them with AJ and spit in David's face)
And she'll follow Gabe and/or splitup from Javi...?
Depending on your choices. But don't bother. There's no rewind option anymore.
Gee thanks, Navi.
I know, I have to replay at least two entire episodes.
Just help Clem & Kate save Richmond. The result will be the best ending, if you also rejected Kate's feelings.
Uh, no it fuckin won't.
It'll result in a zigzaggy tonal disarray of an ending that unnecessarily outright kill off one of the very few characters to get considerable development and goes to show what shallow, "fanservice-y," joke of a leech the so-called mascot has become.
Here's a nice, hard one for ya: Who's the worst character, Jane or ANF!Clementine?
Gabe's a piece of shit. He calls you out in front of everyone, if you shoot Conrad, even though he had a gun on him; and calls you a coward if you don't shoot Conrad. His relationship with Clem is one of the worst and most forced things they've ever done in this series. He deserves to die. Kate is just a straight up thot. The less chance Javi's family has of appearing in TFS, the better.
Jane, easily. For being one of the two characters that essentially stole all the development of other characters, that season, after she appeared.
Oh, don't get me wrong, pretty much everyone agrees the way that scene was executed was bullshit.
With that said, I still stand by my belief that it was a perfectly good scene story AND gameplay-wise to not only truly delve into Gabe's less obvious characteristics(particularly his exact moral beliefs) along with the group's opinions of Javier's choices, and "redeem" the determinant relationships system if it actually took said relationship with Gabe(plus maybe Clementine and Tripp) into account , lined up in a mostly logical way, potentially came with the option to actually side with Gabe as oppose to just straight up flaking on him no matter what, and actually made it mean something in a longer term than just until they get the truck rolled out for hotwiring.
To be fair, that was in the immediate moment and he shuts up about it almost as quickly.
...And the rest of the game.
Another example of a perfectly wasted detail for the character/story arc(s) to develop, no doubt.
I always saw it for what it was: an incredibly lazy, cheap, and trendy way to make Clementine feel relevant and "important" in the plot of two episodes that honestly had zero to do with her and saw her do almost as much of actual worth.
Yeah, part of me definitely says that clinging to that makes the most sense in the long term.
Jane is way edgier and cringier than ANF Clementine, plus all the fucked up shit she did doesn't help her case.
Not really sure how you believe it is the best ending. Every ending where Clem and Javi go together seem so loosely thrown together and going to save Richmond is a complete letdown compared to Javi taking on a large group of walkers by himself.
Tbh the best ending would be Javi going after David and Gabe alone. It actually wraps up all their arcs rather nicely and has enough action and mystery to be considered a real Walking Dead ending.
It's the best ending, because Javi's family sucks, (save for Mariana). The less that have a chance of appearing in TFS, the better.
Thats not actually a good reason why it's the best ending, that's just negative metagaming. The best ending should be the one that does the story and the character arcs the most justice, which is the one I described.
...You know it's bad when I'm struggling to agree with you on this.
No, no it does not.