It feels to me you're just really anti-Kenny. You're making him out as though he's a horrible man. He took that beating for Clem, not becaus… moree he was selfish, because he wanted to protect a little girl from being beat up by a horrible man.
Every choice they made at Carvers was a risk and everyone had their role to play for the plan, when the plan failed Kenny took responsibility and took the punishment for it.
You're not helping your own points much by constantly praising Jane too, each of these characters has their flaws, that's why you are forced to watch one of them die in the end. In this world no ones is perfect, Jane kept pushing Kenny to his limit just to prove her point and Kenny let his aggression get the better of him.
It plays a role. Because he's a guy and (as Jane quite eloquently put it) is a "wounded warrior," he gets to be macho and brooding.
It's all subliminal.
Think of it like this. If Kenny were a girl (shivers) do you think people would easily defend the actions he preformed throughout the series? Fuck no. They'd hate her. Hell, people say Jane is a "villain" because she did one very questionable thing in order to save a young girl she deemed was in danger.
Kenny can perceive Larry as a threat, it's cool. Jane can perceive Kenny is a threat, she's "evil."
Did I not just say both of them have their flaws? I'm not pro-kenny myself but I'm sick of people blaming everything on the guy. Jane knows how to survive, but she also lacks a lot of strong abilities. What she did at the end of ep5 was stupid and highly riskful. Putting a child in danger to prove a goddamn point is not justifiably right. She isn't perfect, if you are honest about who Jane is then you'll see that she is just as much a danger to Clementine than Kenny is. (Leaving her sister, leaving the group, pushing Kenny to the edge, endangering a baby's life)
Kenny is the one that forces Clementine to take the radio in the first place. I wouldnt like to be around people who keep putting me in danger.
I dont make lies about what Jane is, i face the facts as they are, something Kenny fans could also do.
Unlike Kenny, Jane doesnt have anger issues. Kenny even says "i oughta slap you" if you say Lee shouldnt have tried to save her. He punches Clementine if she tries to stop him from beating Arvo (accident of course, but thats what people can cause in anger). He ignores Clementine when she asks for help, if she falls through the ice.
Kenny's anger issues is one thing i dont like.
Jane left her sister because she was suicidal for months and she couldnt save her at the roof. She left the group because she didnt want to feel like shit after people she cares about dies. Pushing Kenny to the edge was stupid and unnecessary, but writers decided that Clementine doesnt care about her previous opinions about Kenny and decides to not leave him behind.
I dont really care about the baby, but it surely wasnt in any great danger inside the car. Walkers ignored even Clementine while she was shooting them, so they couldnt have done anything and the baby was safe from the wind inside the car.
She indeed isnt perfect, but i consider her a lot safer companion than Kenny.
Did I not just say both of them have their flaws? I'm not pro-kenny myself but I'm sick of people blaming everything on the guy. Jane knows … morehow to survive, but she also lacks a lot of strong abilities. What she did at the end of ep5 was stupid and highly riskful. Putting a child in danger to prove a goddamn point is not justifiably right. She isn't perfect, if you are honest about who Jane is then you'll see that she is just as much a danger to Clementine than Kenny is. (Leaving her sister, leaving the group, pushing Kenny to the edge, endangering a baby's life)
She's not perfect, and neither is Kenny.
While there are many dialogue options for Clem to say "I'm not his friend, I don't like him" or things like that. What Clem says doesn't matter and we are forced to confront him either way because the adults are being babies. While we can say that we don't want to talk to him, we are forced to. The whole Jane and Clem thing made sense because they talk and share stories and they relate to each other. There is nothing that suggest Clem and Kenny had a meaningful conversation and relate to each other the same way Clem does with other people. You see that people Clem bonds with, she talks to and has meaningful conversations with. Lee. Luke. Nick. Christa. Omid. Pete. Ben. Katjaa. Sarah. The people who were Clem's closest friends had history yes, but they spent extended amounts of time with her, learning about her, taking the time to get to know her. Kenny never had that kind of time with her, yet we are pushed by the story to talk to him like an old friend when he clearly isn't one to Clementine.
And yet as pointed out over and over, you have many options for Clem to say he isn't a friend. Their history respected, no friendship needed… more. This is creating another Kenny issue where there is either none or the issues you're desperately searching for apply to many more characters in the season. It's just the same old Kenny thread.
She spent days with the people in season 2, some barely even that. She spent months with Kenny. He was the father of a friend and the closest companion (if not always friend) of someone who was a father figure to her. They don't ever have to be friends for that to count.
And even if that weren't the case (but it is) it still makes sense that they'd be pushed towards each other in the group because she's new and Kenny's even newer and, as far as every other character is concerned, she's still the one who knows him.
But you don't have to be his friend. Which makes this thread pointless.
While there are many dialogue options for Clem to say "I'm not his friend, I don't like him" or things like that. What Clem says doesn't mat… moreter and we are forced to confront him either way because the adults are being babies. While we can say that we don't want to talk to him, we are forced to. The whole Jane and Clem thing made sense because they talk and share stories and they relate to each other. There is nothing that suggest Clem and Kenny had a meaningful conversation and relate to each other the same way Clem does with other people. You see that people Clem bonds with, she talks to and has meaningful conversations with. Lee. Luke. Nick. Christa. Omid. Pete. Ben. Katjaa. Sarah. The people who were Clem's closest friends had history yes, but they spent extended amounts of time with her, learning about her, taking the time to get to know her. Kenny never had that kind of time with her, yet we are pushed by the story to talk to him like an old friend when he clearly isn't one to Clementine.
...Do you not get what I'm saying. We are pushed to be Kenny's friend no matter what. Why should Clementine have to confront him all the time? Why can't someone else do it? Because we are told so many times no matter what we make Clem say that Kenny is our friend therefore we should talk to him. You even point out that she spends months with Kenny, but solely around Lee and Duck primarily. Meaning she didn't ever talk with Kenny so what reason does she have to be friends with him? For nostalgia sakes? And if we aren't pushed to be friends with him then how come in "A House Divded" every possible reception towards meeting Kenny again ends positively, and there is no option that says something like "Oh God. Not again" or something like that. We are pushed to be his friend that much is canon.
She spent days with the people in season 2, some barely even that. She spent months with Kenny. He was the father of a friend and the closes… moret companion (if not always friend) of someone who was a father figure to her. They don't ever have to be friends for that to count.
And even if that weren't the case (but it is) it still makes sense that they'd be pushed towards each other in the group because she's new and Kenny's even newer and, as far as every other character is concerned, she's still the one who knows him.
But you don't have to be his friend. Which makes this thread pointless.
Yeah, and in the end, when Jane proposes leaving Kenny behind, Clementine disagrees, even if she thought Kenny was too dangerous. Its like every choice Clementine made about Kenny becomes irrelevant at that point.
...Do you not get what I'm saying. We are pushed to be Kenny's friend no matter what. Why should Clementine have to confront him all the tim… moree? Why can't someone else do it? Because we are told so many times no matter what we make Clem say that Kenny is our friend therefore we should talk to him. You even point out that she spends months with Kenny, but solely around Lee and Duck primarily. Meaning she didn't ever talk with Kenny so what reason does she have to be friends with him? For nostalgia sakes? And if we aren't pushed to be friends with him then how come in "A House Divded" every possible reception towards meeting Kenny again ends positively, and there is no option that says something like "Oh God. Not again" or something like that. We are pushed to be his friend that much is canon.
When they meet, they have history. He's is the person she has known longest on the entire planet and was part of a defining part of her childhood, connected to Lee and Duck. That's covered and the reactions do not require any genuine friendship.
And beyond that, it comes down to what the other characters think and that's covered too. They don't know Clem long and they barely know Kenny. But they do know that they know each other.
The only point where any of this might be valid is at the very end. The end is nuts (and yet even then you don't have to be a friend). But it's nuts with regards to Jane too and yet this wasn't a 'why are we being pushed to Kenny AND Jane' thread because its purpose is to be just yet another Kenny thread.
...Do you not get what I'm saying. We are pushed to be Kenny's friend no matter what. Why should Clementine have to confront him all the tim… moree? Why can't someone else do it? Because we are told so many times no matter what we make Clem say that Kenny is our friend therefore we should talk to him. You even point out that she spends months with Kenny, but solely around Lee and Duck primarily. Meaning she didn't ever talk with Kenny so what reason does she have to be friends with him? For nostalgia sakes? And if we aren't pushed to be friends with him then how come in "A House Divded" every possible reception towards meeting Kenny again ends positively, and there is no option that says something like "Oh God. Not again" or something like that. We are pushed to be his friend that much is canon.
I don't know what your point is. You say they've known each other for a long time and that doesn't make them friends. Yet you say the other characters make us talk to him because they think they are friends. We are pushed to be Kenny's friend exactly because much of the 2nd Season is written from the viewpoint of someone who was great friends with Kenny and therefore believes majority of players are to. The Jane and Clem relationship isn't as bad as the Kenny and Clem relationship because Jane and Clementine spend a lot of time getting to know each other and of their pasts and through that they learn to trust each other.
The Kenny and Clem dynamic just doesn't make sense because there is little evidence to suggest that they are friends. This is why this is a Kenny thread. In Season 1, they have little dialouge besides "You're lucky you don't have spiders in your hair." and "Get ON the train Clementine." The only thing bridging the gap between them is Lee. The game doesn't take into account that some people weren't good friends with Kenny as Lee so why on Earth should Clementine be good friends with Kenny? It's a major flaw behind the thinking of the game.
When they meet, they have history. He's is the person she has known longest on the entire planet and was part of a defining part of her chil… moredhood, connected to Lee and Duck. That's covered and the reactions do not require any genuine friendship.
And beyond that, it comes down to what the other characters think and that's covered too. They don't know Clem long and they barely know Kenny. But they do know that they know each other.
The only point where any of this might be valid is at the very end. The end is nuts (and yet even then you don't have to be a friend). But it's nuts with regards to Jane too and yet this wasn't a 'why are we being pushed to Kenny AND Jane' thread because its purpose is to be just yet another Kenny thread.
I don't know what your point is. You say they've known each other for a long time and that doesn't make them friends. Yet you say the other … morecharacters make us talk to him because they think they are friends. We are pushed to be Kenny's friend exactly because much of the 2nd Season is written from the viewpoint of someone who was great friends with Kenny and therefore believes majority of players are to. The Jane and Clem relationship isn't as bad as the Kenny and Clem relationship because Jane and Clementine spend a lot of time getting to know each other and of their pasts and through that they learn to trust each other.
The Kenny and Clem dynamic just doesn't make sense because there is little evidence to suggest that they are friends. This is why this is a Kenny thread. In Season 1, they have little dialouge besides "You're lucky you don't have spiders in your hair." and "Get ON the train Clementine." The only thing bridging the gap betw… [view original content]
The reason as to why Clem and Kenny are so happy to see each other and as to why Kenny suddenly acts like Clem was always his pal is because Season 2's writers are too much in love with Kenny and wanted to force in a relationship that had no build up and no evidence to for it's plausibility, it's probably not even plausible considering I don't see any evidence and there is no indication for this bond always existing , the writers are at fault here for me. There was build up to the Christa and Clem relationship and it had great potential to grow into something meaningful, instead we have to deal with an extremely lame time skip that ruins and wastes any potential that relationship might have had, Telltale simply wanted to more things with Kenny, instead of Christa despite Clementine actually interacting with Christa in S1. I really don't see the foundation that you or extreme fanatics have invented for yourselves that Kenny and Clem ALWAYS HAD A BOND, I DON"T SEE IT, and maybe it's the fact I'm not in love with Kenny himself, this is also not a realistic zombie documentary, this is a story about characters with character arcs, do not pull that bullshit realistic argument because it will never work on me.
didn't see it, and Telltale didn't even try to give me any hints or a mention that Kenny and Clem formed a bond in S1, it's plausible, BUT T… moreHERE IS NO EVIDENCE
Alright, but this doesn't matter at all then. If you're admitting that the relationship is plausible (it is) then where is the actual problem in the relationship picking up in season two? You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean the relationship is out of place. The fact that we didn't see much on screen evidence in season one is completely irrelevant to the legitimacy of an existing relationship going into season two. That's really all there is to it. I don't see what there is to argue about.
i'm not basing an emotional attachment on assumptions and plausibility, it doesn't work like that in fiction. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
Please don't ask me "Why is this so hard for you to understand" when you literally just did nothing to back up wh… [view original content]
Of course they had possibility for this, but Clementine clearly can say they didnt.
Not having a relationship =/= "Not knowing someone that well". The things you try and draw parallels to..
Can we even say that was a for sure honest answer from Clem anyway? Was it not possibly an option for people that wanted to distance themselves from Kenny and who they thought he was as a person? Considering another option is to have Clementine give a warm smile and state that they are old friends, we can't really make a for sure call here. What we can do is go with what actually makes sense, and that is Clementine and Kenny having some level of a relationship because they lived, struggled, survived with one another for over three months.
She saw everything before that. Kenny wanted to leave Ben behind and Clementine defended him.
You're ignoring the point. The point is that we don't know how Clementine felt towards Kenny here, and we don't know if this event made a lasting impression either way. So again, telling me what I can or can't think on the matter is ridiculous.
He still said it. You always have an excuse for something bad Kenny says or does.
Aaaand you ignored everything meaningful behind what I said. Shocking. I might as well copy and paste my previous response to you.
Uhm no... This is exactly the reason the relationship IS forced. Clementine doesnt know Kenny that well and she can say that he is a jerk, but the game still treats them as they were friends always. This is just a mistake from the writers. They didnt think about the fact that Kenny and Clementine had no foundation for their friendship, they only "knew" each other from being part of a same group. If Kenny was replaced with someone Clementine actually was emotionally attached to, then it would have been fine.
Umm... no you totally contradicted yourself and there is no denying that. A relationship requires at least two people. So if you're stating + giving examples as to how Clementine can push Kenny away/ break the possible relationship you can't possibly argue that the relationship between the two is forced upon you. You're pretty much beating yourself here..
Relationship:
"The the way in which two or more people, groups, countries, etc., talk to, behave toward, and deal with each other"
"A romantic or sexual friendship between two people"
"The way in which two or more people or things are connected"
The reason as to why Clem and Kenny are so happy to see each other and as to why Kenny suddenly acts like Clem was always his pal is because Season 2's writers are too much in love with Kenny and wanted to force in a relationship that had no build up and no evidence to for it's plausibility, it's probably not even plausible considering I don't see any evidence and there is no indication for this bond always existing , the writers are at fault here for me.
J... I already touched on all of that. Why don't you take me up on the points that I made?
I'm not sure why you're backtracking on the plausibility argument. You had stated that it was plausible in your last response.
There was build up to the Christa and Clem relationship and it had great potential to grow into something meaningful
There was no more additional buildup between their relationship than there was in the Kenny-Clementine relationship (in terms of relationship status). The potential of the Christa-Clementine relationship is irrelevant.
Telltale simply wanted to more things with Kenny, instead of Christa despite Clementine actually interacting with Christa in S1
So therefore the Kenny-Clementine relationship is forced and the Christa-Clementine relationship is not? What? The fact that the writers wanted to do more with Kenny is irrelevant. And come on, Christa's interaction with Clementine isn't even anything notable. You're splitting hairs here.
I really don't see the foundation that you or extreme fanatics have invented for yourselves that Kenny and Clem ALWAYS HAD A BOND, I DON"T SEE IT, and maybe it's the fact I'm not in love with Kenny himself, this is also not a realistic zombie documentary, this is a story about characters with character arcs, do not pull that bullshit realistic argument because it will never work on me.
Hey, if you're all for ignoring basic logical thinking then go for it. Good luck trying to prove any points ever. Just because we're talking about a fictional story doesn't mean logic completely goes out the window (in the sense of how human beings function..).
The reason as to why Clem and Kenny are so happy to see each other and as to why Kenny suddenly acts like Clem was always his pal is because… more Season 2's writers are too much in love with Kenny and wanted to force in a relationship that had no build up and no evidence to for it's plausibility, it's probably not even plausible considering I don't see any evidence and there is no indication for this bond always existing , the writers are at fault here for me. There was build up to the Christa and Clem relationship and it had great potential to grow into something meaningful, instead we have to deal with an extremely lame time skip that ruins and wastes any potential that relationship might have had, Telltale simply wanted to more things with Kenny, instead of Christa despite Clementine actually interacting with Christa in S1. I really don't see the foundation that you or extreme fanatics have invented for yourselves that Kenny and Clem ALWAYS HA… [view original content]
With how basic human beings function, that's one of the reasons why I don't buy this relationship at all, Clem and Kenny show zero signs of interacting with each other in the first season. IT"S THERE AND I SEE IT with Clem and Christa, it had build up, there was a cetain foundation, there was NOTHING there for Kenny and Clem, NOTHING. You're reasoning for this relationship making sense doesn't make sense, you're just basing everything on assumptions, theories, and you're using the really stupid realistic argument, logic applies, but stuff needs to make sense, the Kenny and Clem relationship doesn't make sense, had no build up, there was no foundation for it, and i keep retreading because your points hold no value and are simply based on your own personal interpretation and you're free to think that there was a relationship and bonding, but I don't and apparently you'll just believe in a relationship as long as you're in love with a certain character, I really don't care for Kenny fanatics who try to act like there was something there when there really wasn't. That's your problem Belan, you're too much in love with Kenny to really look at this writing and actually think about it. I don't hate Kenny, i liked the moments where Clem and Kenny interacted in S2, But I'm NEVER EVER, EVER, going to use that as an excuse to defend messy and inconsistent writing.
The reason as to why Clem and Kenny are so happy to see each other and as to why Kenny suddenly acts like Clem was always his pal is because… more Season 2's writers are too much in love with Kenny and wanted to force in a relationship that had no build up and no evidence to for it's plausibility, it's probably not even plausible considering I don't see any evidence and there is no indication for this bond always existing , the writers are at fault here for me.
J... I already touched on all of that. Why don't you take me up on the points that I made?
I'm not sure why you're backtracking on the plausibility argument. You had stated that it was plausible in your last response.
There was build up to the Christa and Clem relationship and it had great potential to grow into something meaningful
There was no more additional buildup between their relationship than there was in the Kenny-Clementine relationship (in terms of relatio… [view original content]
I don't know what your point is. You say they've known each other for a long time and that doesn't make them friends. Yet you say the other … morecharacters make us talk to him because they think they are friends. We are pushed to be Kenny's friend exactly because much of the 2nd Season is written from the viewpoint of someone who was great friends with Kenny and therefore believes majority of players are to. The Jane and Clem relationship isn't as bad as the Kenny and Clem relationship because Jane and Clementine spend a lot of time getting to know each other and of their pasts and through that they learn to trust each other.
The Kenny and Clem dynamic just doesn't make sense because there is little evidence to suggest that they are friends. This is why this is a Kenny thread. In Season 1, they have little dialouge besides "You're lucky you don't have spiders in your hair." and "Get ON the train Clementine." The only thing bridging the gap betw… [view original content]
Not having a relationship =/= "Not knowing someone that well". The things you try and draw parallels to..
What i meant is that Kenny is just some guy Clementine knew from the past. Kenny wasnt her friend, they just happened to be part of a group. Only thing which was connecting them even the slightest was Katjaa, Duck and Lee. I have friend which i've known 15 years, yet i have no idea what kind of person his father is, i just know that he exists. Sure i say hi to him when ever i see him or talk about whats going on, but thats about it.
You're ignoring the point. The point is that we don't know how Clementine felt towards Kenny here, and we don't know if this event made a lasting impression either way. So again, telling me what I can or can't think on the matter is ridiculous.
So when someone wants to murder your friend, it wont change your opinion about that person at all? Ok.
Kenny was a guy Clementine knew. He wasnt her good friend as the game lets you think. No matter what you say to Kenny or how you disagree with him, you still wont leave him behind when he leaves the car, even if you think he is dangerous and that he is getting you all killed by driving to north. And everyone (including writers) still thinks you are his friend, no matter your own opinion, even if you are given option to not like the guy.
ps. Theres a little language barrier here, since there is no proper english translation from certain finnish words.
Of course they had possibility for this, but Clementine clearly can say they didnt.
Not having a relationship =/= "Not knowing someo… morene that well". The things you try and draw parallels to..
Can we even say that was a for sure honest answer from Clem anyway? Was it not possibly an option for people that wanted to distance themselves from Kenny and who they thought he was as a person? Considering another option is to have Clementine give a warm smile and state that they are old friends, we can't really make a for sure call here. What we can do is go with what actually makes sense, and that is Clementine and Kenny having some level of a relationship because they lived, struggled, survived with one another for over three months.
She saw everything before that. Kenny wanted to leave Ben behind and Clementine defended him.
You're ignoring the point. The point is that we don't know how Clementine felt towards Kenny here, and… [view original content]
Clem lived in a very tiny close community with Kenny for months. It's not the same as your friend's dad. She is connected to him. Doesn't make them friends. But it does connect them just as it connected her to almost everyone in that group. Had Lilly's last action not been to shoot someone in the face, Clem wouldn't have been far off reacting the same way had she turned up in season 2. It's a connection to someone who spent a lot of time with her during her time with Lee. That shit sticks with people.
This is built around a fallacy, which is the idea of "friendship". You don't have to be friends with Kenny in season 2.
Not having a relationship =/= "Not knowing someone that well". The things you try and draw parallels to..
What i meant is that Kenny… more is just some guy Clementine knew from the past. Kenny wasnt her friend, they just happened to be part of a group. Only thing which was connecting them even the slightest was Katjaa, Duck and Lee. I have friend which i've known 15 years, yet i have no idea what kind of person his father is, i just know that he exists. Sure i say hi to him when ever i see him or talk about whats going on, but thats about it.
You're ignoring the point. The point is that we don't know how Clementine felt towards Kenny here, and we don't know if this event made a lasting impression either way. So again, telling me what I can or can't think on the matter is ridiculous.
So when someone wants to murder your friend, it wont change your opinion about that person at all? Ok.
Kenny was a guy Clementine knew. He wasn… [view original content]
Kenny brought it on himself. I don't share hardships with people who bring them on themselves, no matter who it is. Kenny not only stole property from a man after he killed one of his subordinates. Kenny (determinedly) shoots Carver, wounding him. He then constantly proves to be a colossal nuisance to the progress of Carver's community (getting in fights and damaging a possible entry point).
Kenny then acts all coy and cool like he'll just get off the hook? So naturally, Carver had to try to teach the hard head some respect by enforcing a punishment in the form of a brutal beat-down.
For Clem, Kenny is more than just a familiar face, but a callback to the early days of the apocalypse, before being alone with Christa for the 16 months, before she had to leave Lee. To us, he's just a character in a video game, but for Clem, we should realize that there's a deeper connection between them. So in this regard, it's entirely acceptable for Clem to open up to Kenny against the control and influence of the player.
Well put. I'm usually against the notion of having ANY aspect of a PC beyond the player's control, but in this case, I'd say it would be ridiculous if Clementine wasn't at least somewhat emotional about Kenny's return, with or without the player's influence.
I would argue that, despite us playing as Clem in S2, it's still Clementine being Clementine, and we have to choose the options that she is … morecapable of, not necessarily what we want from her.
Now, from this Kenny situation, we're looking at it from our perspective, but not from Clem's. For us, Kenny may have been a total douche bag, and some of us may end up hating the guy, but let's look at him from Clem's point of view. He is Duck's father, and Katjaa's husband. For Clem, Duck was the only childhood friend around her age group, the only other kid she had to share time with. We know they got along, despite the pranks and name-calling. Katjaa, on the other hand, looked out for Clem when Lee couldn't, acting like a mother-figure in the motor inn. She's there with Clem by the train, as well as in the barn with Maybelle. We know Clem looked up to her, as she waited for Katjaa's permission to pet the cow.
For Clem, Kenny is more than just a … [view original content]
Kenny could never be Lee. He cared for Clem in S1 like any adult would care for a child in danger, but they barely had any interaction and I wouldn't have ever considered them "friends". I think their relationship in S2 was based on previously knowing each other and through their connection to Lee. It did grow stronger throughout S2, but was never even close to what Clem had with Lee.
well he is the thing with ben he actually was the person who got his whole family killed unlike carley/doug who had nothing to do with larry… more's death and with jane don't even try to make her seem like the victim kenny may have started it but jane could have easily ended it after she sliced him by saying the baby is actually alive but no she just had to keep on going to prove a point
Not really, I don't care about Carver, but the "kenny fans" logic is: (sorry for my English, I'm not native)
Kenny kills someone because he is furious, he is a hero... Lilly kills Carley/Doug because she was furious and sad, she is a maniac and deserves to die.
Kenny blames the other for everything that happen, he is right and the others are wrong because he is angry...
Kenny wants to take decisions over the others will, the others "betray" him because doesn't do what he want, so he is the victim and the others acts like bitches... An example of that decisions are killing Larry, doesn't stop the train when his son was dying, finding a boat, going to Wellington, among others...
In my case he didn't come to help to find Clementine, I support him in every decision except killing Larry and killing Ben, he told me that I wasn't there when he needs me so I told him that Clem was my only family, but when my Lee asks Ben for help, Kenny said that if ben came with me he wouldn't so I told him "FUCK YOU KENNY"... THAT is the proof that Kenny doesn't care about what happened to Clem in season 1...
What i meant is that Kenny is just some guy Clementine knew from the past. Kenny wasnt her friend, they just happened to be part of a group. Only thing which was connecting them even the slightest was Katjaa, Duck and Lee.
They were living and surviving together. Simply putting it as "they were just part of a group" is an oversimplification and it ignores the actual dynamics of living with someone.
I have friend which i've known 15 years, yet i have no idea what kind of person his father is, i just know that he exists. Sure i say hi to him when ever i see him or talk about whats going on, but thats about it.
Do you live with your friend's father? Do you fight for survival with one another?
This comparison makes no sense.
So when someone wants to murder your friend, it wont change your opinion about that person at all? Ok.
As we have gone over already, Clementine had no reason to think Kenny wanted to murder Ben. Lee is the only person to see Kenny express the thought of letting Ben drop at the bell tower.
No matter what you say to Kenny or how you disagree with him, you still wont leave him behind when he leaves the car, even if you think he is dangerous and that he is getting you all killed by driving to north.
So? It was simply part of the story. You can still give your 2 cents, but Kenny does what he wants. That doesn't have anything to do with a forced friendship.
Not having a relationship =/= "Not knowing someone that well". The things you try and draw parallels to..
What i meant is that Kenny… more is just some guy Clementine knew from the past. Kenny wasnt her friend, they just happened to be part of a group. Only thing which was connecting them even the slightest was Katjaa, Duck and Lee. I have friend which i've known 15 years, yet i have no idea what kind of person his father is, i just know that he exists. Sure i say hi to him when ever i see him or talk about whats going on, but thats about it.
You're ignoring the point. The point is that we don't know how Clementine felt towards Kenny here, and we don't know if this event made a lasting impression either way. So again, telling me what I can or can't think on the matter is ridiculous.
So when someone wants to murder your friend, it wont change your opinion about that person at all? Ok.
Kenny was a guy Clementine knew. He wasn… [view original content]
They were living and surviving together. Simply putting it as "they were just part of a group" is an oversimplification and it ignores the actual dynamics of living with someone.
No its not. With your logic, Lilly should have been "friends" with Clementine, simply because they survived together. You can time around people and never get to know them.
Do you live with your friend's father? Do you fight for survival with one another?
This comparison makes no sense.
I spent most of my days in my friends house and saw him many times in week.
Clem and Kenny didnt fight for survival together. Kenny and Lee did most of the scavenging and Clementine simply was safe in the motel.
As we have gone over already, Clementine had no reason to think Kenny wanted to murder Ben. Lee is the only person to see Kenny express the thought of letting Ben drop at the bell tower.
"you are fucking dead, you hear me! Dead!" and then later he votes to leave Ben behind. Im pretty sure Clem got the idea.
So? It was simply part of the story. You can still give your 2 cents, but Kenny does what he wants. That doesn't have anything to do with a forced friendship.
For the sake of forced Clementine - Kenny friendship, you cant leave him behind. Thats the problem this thread is all about. lousy story which expects people to like Kenny in the first place. It wasnt even a choice for me to go with Kenny, i had made up my mind about Kenny in season 1 and ep2 just made me hate him more after he got Walter killed. i had been waiting for a chance to leave Kenny behind ever since episode 2 ended and this was it. It wasnt hard decision as the writers intended, since i didnt have any sympathy left for Kenny. Only reason i took long with the decision was because i wanted to make sure i press the right button to shoot Kenny. The biggest decision in the season didnt have any effect on me, because i didnt care about the other character to begin with. Imo, Kenny should have died by Carver's hand and Carlos should have had bigger role.
What i meant is that Kenny is just some guy Clementine knew from the past. Kenny wasnt her friend, they just happened to be part of a group.… more Only thing which was connecting them even the slightest was Katjaa, Duck and Lee.
They were living and surviving together. Simply putting it as "they were just part of a group" is an oversimplification and it ignores the actual dynamics of living with someone.
I have friend which i've known 15 years, yet i have no idea what kind of person his father is, i just know that he exists. Sure i say hi to him when ever i see him or talk about whats going on, but thats about it.
Do you live with your friend's father? Do you fight for survival with one another?
This comparison makes no sense.
So when someone wants to murder your friend, it wont change your opinion about that person at all? Ok.
As we have gone over already, Clementine had no reason to think Kenny wanted to mur… [view original content]
No its not. With your logic, Lilly should have been "friends" with Clementine, simply because they survived together. You can time around people and never get to know them.
It is absolutely an oversimplification for reasons I have already explained. How can you possibly ignore the dynamics that come with living together, let alone struggling and surviving together? That's just absurd.
I'm sure Lilly and Clementine had a relationship of some kind, though I have no clue whether it was a good one or not. No one does. It never got touched on.
I spent most of my days in my friends house and saw him many times in week.
Still not even remotely comparable.
And your personal experience isn't necessarily indicative to the norm, anyway. People form bonds when living with one another for months at a time. People form bonds when struggling and surviving with one another for months at a time. There is no way that Kenny was "just some guy". If someone lived with you for three months you would form some form of a relationship with that person. It is essentially unavoidable.
Clem and Kenny didnt fight for survival together. Kenny and Lee did most of the scavenging and Clementine simply was safe in the motel.
You're taking what I said far too literally. I'm simply saying she was part of the shared struggle.
"you are fucking dead, you hear me! Dead!" and then later he votes to leave Ben behind. Im pretty sure Clem got the idea.
"Pretty sure."
You're just guessing. Nothing Kenny said there actually for sure showed that he wanted to murder Ben. We have no clue what Clementine got out of it.
For the sake of forced Clementine - Kenny friendship, you cant leave him behind.
So, you're telling me that if you don't have the option to leave a character behind, that character relationship is forced?
By your logic, basically every relationship in the game is forced.
They were living and surviving together. Simply putting it as "they were just part of a group" is an oversimplification and it ignores the a… morectual dynamics of living with someone.
No its not. With your logic, Lilly should have been "friends" with Clementine, simply because they survived together. You can time around people and never get to know them.
Do you live with your friend's father? Do you fight for survival with one another?
This comparison makes no sense.
I spent most of my days in my friends house and saw him many times in week.
Clem and Kenny didnt fight for survival together. Kenny and Lee did most of the scavenging and Clementine simply was safe in the motel.
As we have gone over already, Clementine had no reason to think Kenny wanted to murder Ben. Lee is the only person to see Kenny express the thought of letting Ben drop at the bell tower.
"you are fucking dead, you hear me! Dead!" and t… [view original content]
It is absolutely an oversimplification for reasons I have already explained. How can you possibly ignore the dynamics that come with living together, let alone struggling and surviving together? That's just absurd.
And you are completely ignoring the fact that they didnt know each other that well and werent good friends.
Still not even remotely comparable.
So spending time in my friends house in 9 years period isnt comparable for spending 3 months around someone?
There is no way that Kenny was "just some guy". If someone lived with you for three months you would form some form of a relationship with that person. It is essentially unavoidable.
Clearly you havent lived with strangers in same house before.
You're just guessing. Nothing Kenny said there actually for sure showed that he wanted to murder Ben. We have no clue what Clementine got out of it.
If you are just going to close your eyes, block your ears and sing, i guess i should just not talk about this, since you clearly have nothing to defend Kenny with.
So, you're telling me that if you don't have the option to leave a character behind, that character relationship is forced?
Kenny was driving them to north, he said the car would turn back only if they killed him, "from my cold dead fingers" and so on. My Clementine was pretty much always against Kenny and didnt want to go north. She had a chance to basically save her own life and she refuses because "Kenny is a friend, even though i never liked him". So my Clementine doesnt want to leave behind a guy she never liked, thinks is too violent and reckless and he is driving them to north for suicidal mission.
No its not. With your logic, Lilly should have been "friends" with Clementine, simply because they survived together. You can time around pe… moreople and never get to know them.
It is absolutely an oversimplification for reasons I have already explained. How can you possibly ignore the dynamics that come with living together, let alone struggling and surviving together? That's just absurd.
I'm sure Lilly and Clementine had a relationship of some kind, though I have no clue whether it was a good one or not. No one does. It never got touched on.
I spent most of my days in my friends house and saw him many times in week.
Still not even remotely comparable.
And your personal experience isn't necessarily indicative to the norm, anyway. People form bonds when living with one another for months at a time. People form bonds when struggling and surviving with one another for months at a time. There is no way that Kenny was "just… [view original content]
And you are completely ignoring the fact that they didnt know each other that well and werent good friends
We don't know this to be true at all. We have been over this already.
You have the option to either say you don't know Kenny all that well or you have the option to give a warm reminiscing smile and state that Kenny is an old friend. So logically, either one of these answers is a lie, or both are right in a personal cannon. There is nothing to argue about here. My point still stands (and you really didn't address it anyway):
"It is absolutely an oversimplification for reasons I have already explained. How can you possibly ignore the dynamics that come with living together, let alone struggling and surviving together? That's just absurd."
So spending time in my friends house in 9 years period isnt comparable for spending 3 months around someone?
You really like changing your story, don't you? I don't believe you, but that's besides the point. Perhaps you are actually an anomaly. Regardless, most normal human beings who spend that much time around one another are going to form some kind of bond.
Clearly you havent lived with strangers in same house before.
Yeah, no one has, because that is completely fucking unheard of.
If you are just going to close your eyes, block your ears and sing, i guess i should just not talk about this, since you clearly have nothing to defend Kenny with.
You're really a waste of time.
What you're telling me is your own interpretation. We have NO evidence of how Clementine perceived the situation.
So please, don't tell me that I'm choosing to blindly ignore something that isn't even remotely evident.
Kenny was driving them to north, he said the car would turn back only if they killed him, "from my cold dead fingers" and so on. My Clementine was pretty much always against Kenny and didnt want to go north. She had a chance to basically save her own life and she refuses because "Kenny is a friend, even though i never liked him". So my Clementine doesnt want to leave behind a guy she never liked, thinks is too violent and reckless and he is driving them to north for suicidal mission.
I'm just going to go ahead and repeat what I said in my last response to this, because it still applies:
"So, you're telling me that if you don't have the option to leave a character behind, that character relationship is forced? By your logic, basically every relationship in the game is forced."
Obviously if we start taking all of this "forced" nonsense super literally we can argue that every character has a forced relationship simply by being in the game. Using this argument in the context that you're trying to use it is just silly. Just because you didn't agree with what Kenny was doing doesn't mean you should have had the option to leave him. There was a story to tell. Obviously something like that would change everything. Only so many outcomes can be written.
This argument would be like me arguing that I should have had the opportunity to get rid of Lilly earlier in Season One simply because I thought she was a detriment to the group. Man... that Lilly relationship was so forced..
It is absolutely an oversimplification for reasons I have already explained. How can you possibly ignore the dynamics that come with living … moretogether, let alone struggling and surviving together? That's just absurd.
And you are completely ignoring the fact that they didnt know each other that well and werent good friends.
Still not even remotely comparable.
So spending time in my friends house in 9 years period isnt comparable for spending 3 months around someone?
There is no way that Kenny was "just some guy". If someone lived with you for three months you would form some form of a relationship with that person. It is essentially unavoidable.
Clearly you havent lived with strangers in same house before.
You're just guessing. Nothing Kenny said there actually for sure showed that he wanted to murder Ben. We have no clue what Clementine got out of it.
If you are just going to close your eyes, bl… [view original content]
the friendship is not forced. there are multiple alternate dialog choices you can choose which really in my opinion define your friendship with kenny. like it or not the fact that they knew each other in season one means they are old friends even though they may not have interacted much in season 1. you can choose to be overly positive toward him or you can state that you dont know him well and oppose him at every turn. granted this does not effect his strong feelings for clem but after loosing katjaa and duck i cant really blame him for reaching out to clem like he does.
We don't know this to be true at all. We have been over this already.
Saying he is an old friend doenst have as obvioust meaning as "i dont know him that well actually".
Regardless, most normal human beings who spend that much time around one another are going to form some kind of bond.
I guess its just us finns. And how did i change my story? (its 9am here so im pretty tired)
Yeah, no one has, because that is completely fucking unheard of.
what is that even supposed to mean?
You're really a waste of time.
What you're telling me is your own interpretation. We have NO evidence of how Clementine perceived the situation.
So please, don't tell me that I'm choosing to blindly ignore something that isn't even remotely evident.
My previous statement still stands.
Just because you didn't agree with what Kenny was doing doesn't mean you should have had the option to leave him. There was a story to tell. Obviously something like that would change everything. Only so many outcomes can be written.
I think you are ignoring that from my Clementines point of view, going to north was suicidal and that was the only direction the car was going with Kenny driving it. His "opinion" was putting everyone at risk of dying, so dont treat it as ordinary opinion. From my pov, staying with Kenny and search for Wellington was as good as staying with Sarah and dying.
And i think that how Clementine's interactions affected other characters and their future interactions with you was done poorly in this season anyway.
This argument would be like me arguing that I should have had the opportunity to get rid of Lilly earlier in Season One simply because I thought she was a detriment to the group. Man... that Lilly relationship was so forced..
If the game didnt give a chance to leave Lilly behind, would you not be annoyed? Kenny had already caused 1 of my friends to die, even after i told him not to shoot because Carver would just kill someone, but he didnt listen. After that he does the stupid rambo truck plan, but luckily Troy is an idiot, then forces Clementine to take the Radio even is she says "Mike should have it". He shot Rebecca and caused a firefight to start, beats Arvo and causes disagreement within the group, breaks the group, forces Clementine to go on suicidal mission and she is still supposed to like him enough to not leave him behind to save her own life? It made no sense considering everything that had happened before in MY playthrough. Lilly was a threat to Lee's friends, not to Lee, but you could leave her. Kenny was threat to Clementine's friends and to her, but you cant leave him. Why dont you just accept that the writers fucked up?
And you are completely ignoring the fact that they didnt know each other that well and werent good friends
We don't know this to be … moretrue at all. We have been over this already.
You have the option to either say you don't know Kenny all that well or you have the option to give a warm reminiscing smile and state that Kenny is an old friend. So logically, either one of these answers is a lie, or both are right in a personal cannon. There is nothing to argue about here. My point still stands (and you really didn't address it anyway):
"It is absolutely an oversimplification for reasons I have already explained. How can you possibly ignore the dynamics that come with living together, let alone struggling and surviving together? That's just absurd."
So spending time in my friends house in 9 years period isnt comparable for spending 3 months around someone?
You really like changing your story, don't you? I don't believe yo… [view original content]
i pretty much agree with most of what you have said the things i don't agree with are the fact you are comparing carver's death to carley/doug's you can't compare the two carver was a psycho and held the group hostage and beat kenny he deserved it carley/doug done nothing to deserve the death they got you can't compare the two and with the larry situation it was simple you either take the chance of being eaten or killing larry there wasn't much options
Not really, I don't care about Carver, but the "kenny fans" logic is: (sorry for my English, I'm not native)
Kenny kills someone because … morehe is furious, he is a hero... Lilly kills Carley/Doug because she was furious and sad, she is a maniac and deserves to die.
Kenny blames the other for everything that happen, he is right and the others are wrong because he is angry...
Kenny wants to take decisions over the others will, the others "betray" him because doesn't do what he want, so he is the victim and the others acts like bitches... An example of that decisions are killing Larry, doesn't stop the train when his son was dying, finding a boat, going to Wellington, among others...
In my case he didn't come to help to find Clementine, I support him in every decision except killing Larry and killing Ben, he told me that I wasn't there when he needs me so I told him that Clem was my only family, but when my Lee asks Ben for help, Kenny s… [view original content]
I'll try to explain this very simple Belan.
* Like it's been said many times, they didnt talk much in season 1. She talked with Kenny o… morenly 3 times as far as we know.
* Kenny wanted to murder/leave her friend, Ben. Cant really think Clementine would consider Kenny the best guy after this.
* Kenny wanted to leave Omid behind and Clementine spent 16 months with Christa. Christa and Kenny werent the best friends, so i cant possibly expect her to talk too nicely about Kenny to Clementine. (Kenny's "death" is determinant, so he cant be treated as hero)
* She can admit that she doesnt actually know Kenny that well and say he is a jerk (most likely Clems personal opinion, considering everything he said/did over the game.)
She definitely had talked with Kenny before, but clearly they didnt know each other. Only thing which united them was Lee, and no matter how huge prick Kenny was to Lee or Clementine, their "friendship" stays the same in season 2.
Saying he is an old friend doenst have as obvioust meaning as "i dont know him that well actually".
That isn't true at all. There is literally no way to measure that. You're just assuming either way.
What does it matter anyway? You either have the ability to clearly show an emotional connection to Kenny, or you can act more indifferent. "So logically, either one of these answers is a lie, or both are right in a personal cannon."
You're not really doing anything to disprove what I'm saying.
I guess its just us finns. And how did i change my story?
You have been adding to it every time you bring it up. It makes it sound as if you're embellishing.
Regardless, people do not live with other people for an extended period of time and not form some kind of bond. People do not struggle together with others while living among each other for an extended period of time and not form some kind of bond. You're being entirely unrealistic. You're denying basic human psychology. Hell, you're denying basic animal psychology. There is no way Kenny and Clementine lived among one another in a small group fighting through an apocalyptic environment and somehow, beyond all reason, ended up being completely indifferent to one another. The chances of that happening might as well be zero. It doesn't even matter if we didn't see clear evidence on screen. It wasn't needed in order for Telltale to build on their relationship in season two.
My previous statement still stands.
Why? Just because you say it does? Sorry, but that reply is 100% meaningless in regards to helping your argument.
There is no shame in admitting that you were wrong..
I think you are ignoring that from my Clementines point of view, going to north was suicidal and that was the only direction the car was going with Kenny driving it. His "opinion" was putting everyone at risk of dying, so dont treat it as ordinary opinion. From my pov, staying with Kenny and search for Wellington was as good as staying with Sarah and dying.
And I think you are ignoring the fact that I already completely addressed this. Just because you weren't a fan of what Kenny was doing doesn't mean you should be given the choice to abandon him. There was a story to tell. If Telltale gave such dramatic alternatives for every single narration that someone wanted to part from, then nothing would ever get done. What you're asking for is pretty ridiculous. Just because you were stuck with Kenny doesn't give you reason to claim that the relationship was "forced" (unless you want to take that super literally... but that's obviously not what we're talking about).
If the game didnt give a chance to leave Lilly behind, would you not be annoyed?
No, because that is a completely ridiculous thing to ask for. I'm not going to demand the story to give me a cop out of every single situation that I don't want to be a part of. That is crazy unrealistic to storytelling.
Lilly was a threat to Lee's friends, not to Lee, but you could leave her. Kenny was threat to Clementine's friends and to her, but you cant leave him.
As much as I want to argue how illogical this point is, it is ultimately completely irrelevant for the reasons stated in the last two paragraphs above.
We don't know this to be true at all. We have been over this already.
Saying he is an old friend doenst have as obvioust meaning as … more"i dont know him that well actually".
Regardless, most normal human beings who spend that much time around one another are going to form some kind of bond.
I guess its just us finns. And how did i change my story? (its 9am here so im pretty tired)
Yeah, no one has, because that is completely fucking unheard of.
what is that even supposed to mean?
You're really a waste of time.
What you're telling me is your own interpretation. We have NO evidence of how Clementine perceived the situation.
So please, don't tell me that I'm choosing to blindly ignore something that isn't even remotely evident.
My previous statement still stands.
Just because you didn't agree with what Kenny was doing doesn't mean you should have had the option to leave him. There was a sto… [view original content]
You're not really doing anything to disprove what I'm saying.
Yes i am, but you just ignore my arguments. No point to keep repeating what i say, since you dont understand anyway.
Regardless, people do not live with other people for an extended period of time and not form some kind of bond. People do not struggle together with others while living among each other for an extended period of time and not form some kind of bond. You're being entirely unrealistic.
No im not, you are simply ignoring that all humans arent the same.
There is no way Kenny and Clementine lived among one another in a small group fighting through an apocalyptic environment and somehow, beyond all reason, ended up being completely indifferent to one another. The chances of that happening might as well be zero. It doesn't even matter if we didn't see clear evidence on screen. It wasn't needed in order for Telltale to build on their relationship in season two.
They only knew each other from being around in same group. Clem knew what had happened to Kenny, but there is no point to assume that they actively talked to each other, since what would a 8 years old girl and +40 years old man have in common, besides being survivors? Kenny doesnt even care about Clementine in season 1 if Lee isnt his good friend.
There is no shame in admitting that you were wrong..
If im wrong about something, i have no problem admiting it. You just ignore obvious things just because you are biased and it would hurt your image about Kenny. Kenny wanted to murder Ben. He states that and even tries to make Lee do it. How the hell can you not see that he wanted Ben dead? The group wasnt going to allow him to just murder Ben, but as soon as there came situation to let it happen, Kenny took it.
Just because you weren't a fan of what Kenny was doing doesn't mean you should be given the choice to abandon him.
So Clementine is suicidal because of a guy she doesnt even like or agree with and thinks is dangerous, who forced her to go north? It was bad writing and any sane person would have left Kenny in that situation (considering what happened in my playthrough).
No, because that is a completely ridiculous thing to ask for. I'm not going to demand the story to give me a cop out of every single situation that I don't want to be a part of. That is crazy unrealistic to storytelling.
So its better to force player to do things they consider very stupid, just for sake of story?
Forgot about this.
Saying he is an old friend doenst have as obvioust meaning as "i dont know him that well actually".
* Tha… moret isn't true at all. There is literally no way to measure that. You're just assuming either way.
* What does it matter anyway? You either have the ability to clearly show an emotional connection to Kenny, or you can act more indifferent. "So logically, either one of these answers is a lie, or both are right in a personal cannon."
You're not really doing anything to disprove what I'm saying.
I guess its just us finns. And how did i change my story?
You have been adding to it every time you bring it up. It makes it sound as if you're embellishing.
Regardless, people do not live with other people for an extended period of time and not form some kind of bond. People do not struggle together with others while living among each other for an extended period of time and not form some kind of… [view original content]
Yes i am, but you just ignore my arguments. No point to keep repeating what i say, since you dont understand anyway.
I haven't ignored a single argument, please don't play that card. Could you please instead actually address what I said to you? Here, I'll quote myself so you don't have to go back and read:
"That isn't true at all. There is literally no way to measure that. You're just assuming either way. What does it matter anyway? You either have the ability to clearly show an emotional connection to Kenny, or you can act more indifferent. So logically, either one of these answers is a lie, or both are right in a personal cannon."
No im not, you are simply ignoring that all humans arent the same.
Of course not all human beings are the same. That doesn't mean that basic principles can not exist. You're turning a blind eye to basic human functioning. Its basically impossible to just completely ignore someone you're living with... even if you consciously make an effort to not interact with them. They are still there... constantly. There is basically no possible way that you're going to avoid forming particular feelings about that individual. Then when you take into context the environment Kenny and Clementine were surviving in... come on. You're being blatantly obtuse here. There is no denying the legitimacy of a past relationship.
If im wrong about something, i have no problem admiting it.
Okay, then please go back and address what I said.
"What you're telling me is your own interpretation. We have NO evidence of how Clementine perceived the situation. So please, don't tell me that I'm choosing to blindly ignore something that isn't even remotely evident."
Please tell me how your point "still stands" in regards to that. And please remember what we were talking about.. (Kenny freaking out at Ben when told that Ben had gotten his family killed).
Kenny wanted to murder Ben. He states that and even tries to make Lee do it. How the hell can you not see that he wanted Ben dead?
This has absolutely nothing to do with anything we were talking about, so I'm not even going to defend the guy. I never said that Kenny didn't want Ben dead. Clearly Kenny wanted Lee to listen to Ben's wishes at the bell tower. This has nothing to do with the Clementine-Kenny relationship. She wasn't there for that exchange.
The group wasnt going to allow him to just murder Ben, but as soon as there came situation to let it happen, Kenny took it.
I seriously don't know if you even understand what you're talking about at this point. This is so irrelevant and entirely off course of what we were discussing. Are you purposely trying to warp the discussion?
Clem knew what had happened to Kenny, but there is no point to assume that they actively talked to each other
Just like there is no point to assume that they did not talk to each other. And it doesn't even matter if they "actively" talked to each other or not. You can form feelings for someone without talking to them a lot. You can form feelings for someone simply from observation, or being around them.
since what would a 8 years old girl and +40 years old man have in common, besides being survivors?
Are you trying to tell me that children do not care about adults? If so, that is entirely false. They don't have to relate to one another in order to care for one another.
Ben and Clementine didn't have much of anything in common... yet Clementine considered Ben her friend. Its actually quite ironic that you have recognized the legitimacy of the friendship between these two and yet you completely refuse to acknowledge the relationship between Kenny and Clem. This is very telling. Put your biases aside and try looking at this situation objectively..
Kenny doesnt even care about Clementine in season 1 if Lee isnt his good friend.
That isn't even necessarily true, and based on his reaction upon seeing Clementine for the first time in season two, we can absolutely write this opinion off. He was simply being vindictive towards Lee. If you tell him that Clementine is family, he recognizes his poor judgement and comes with you.
So Clementine is suicidal because of a guy she doesnt even like or agree with and thinks is dangerous, who forced her to go north? It was bad writing and any sane person would have left Kenny in that situation (considering what happened in my playthrough).
It doesn't matter if you wished to get away from Kenny there. The story didn't allow for otherwise at that point. You can't blame the writing just because you personally didn't want to be with Kenny. At that point in the story, you were stuck with him. Everyone has characters they don't like. You just have to deal with it.
Your argument here would be like me complaining about the fact that I didn't have the option to remove myself from Arvo. It would be a ridiculous argument to make... because it would obviously completely warp the story.
So its better to force player to do things they consider very stupid, just for sake of story?
That's not the point at all. Whether you felt like the Wellington idea was stupid or not is completely irrelevant. This is a story, not real life. You aren't going to have complete control over every little thing that happens. The climax of the story was dependent upon you being stuck with Kenny at that moment. This means nothing in regards to the Kenny-Clementine relationship being "forced".
You're not really doing anything to disprove what I'm saying.
Yes i am, but you just ignore my arguments. No point to keep repeating… more what i say, since you dont understand anyway.
Regardless, people do not live with other people for an extended period of time and not form some kind of bond. People do not struggle together with others while living among each other for an extended period of time and not form some kind of bond. You're being entirely unrealistic.
No im not, you are simply ignoring that all humans arent the same.
There is no way Kenny and Clementine lived among one another in a small group fighting through an apocalyptic environment and somehow, beyond all reason, ended up being completely indifferent to one another. The chances of that happening might as well be zero. It doesn't even matter if we didn't see clear evidence on screen. It wasn't needed in order for Telltale to build on their relationship i… [view original content]
You either have the ability to clearly show an emotional connection to Kenny, or you can act more indifferent.
I already stated that calling someone old friend doesnt have as clear meaning as saying i dont really know him that well. I can call people from school old friends, even though i havent seen them in years and have no idea what they are like anymore. I can call them old friends, or just state the fact that i actually dont know them that well and both of them are valid, but other is just more harsh answer, even if its true.
They are still there... constantly. There is basically no possible way that you're going to avoid forming particular feelings about that individual. Then when you take into context the environment Kenny and Clementine were surviving in... come on. You're being blatantly obtuse here. There is no denying the legitimacy of a past relationship.
You are speaking as if everyone would eventually be friends, just because they are around each other...
Okay, then please go back and address what I said.
If you hear someone saying that they want someone dead and later votes that they leave him behind, how could you still like that person? He wants your friend dead/left behind... If you think Clementine didnt dislike Kenny for this, then you are delusional.
Just like there is no point to assume that they did not talk to each other. And it doesn't even matter if they "actively" talked to each other or not. You can form feelings for someone without talking to them a lot. You can form feelings for someone simply from observation, or being around them.
This is what i've been saying. They knew each other from being in same group but they werent ask close as the game lets us think in season 2.
Ben and Clementine didn't have much of anything in common... yet Clementine considered Ben her friend. Its actually quite ironic that you have recognized the legitimacy of the friendship between these two and yet you completely refuse to acknowledge the relationship between Kenny and Clem. This is very telling. Put your biases aside and try looking at this situation objectively..
He was just being nice to her. He even left her in middle of walkers, but this didnt change her opinion about Ben.It doesnt really matter that their friendship was shit from outside perspective, it still meant something to her.
That isn't even necessarily true, and based on his reaction upon seeing Clementine for the first time in season two, we can absolutely write this opinion off. He was simply being vindictive towards Lee. If you tell him that Clementine is family, he recognizes his poor judgement and comes with you.
IF you help his family, and appeal to family in that conversation, he helps you. If he really cared about Clementine, he would have helped to look for her, no matter how shitty treatment Lee gave to Kenny.
It doesn't matter if you wished to get away from Kenny there. The story didn't allow for otherwise at that point. You can't blame the writing just because you personally didn't want to be with Kenny. At that point in the story, you were stuck with him. Everyone has characters they don't like. You just have to deal with it.
In my game, Clementine didnt like Kenny... That was the whole point why i was pissed off. She doesnt want to go north because she doesnt believe there is anything, yet Kenny forces you to go there and once you get a chance to go back, Clementine suddenly about her previous opinions about Kenny and his plans. That was very stupid and made no sense not being able to leave Kenny behind.
Yes i am, but you just ignore my arguments. No point to keep repeating what i say, since you dont understand anyway.
I haven't ignor… moreed a single argument, please don't play that card. Could you please instead actually address what I said to you? Here, I'll quote myself so you don't have to go back and read:
"That isn't true at all. There is literally no way to measure that. You're just assuming either way. What does it matter anyway? You either have the ability to clearly show an emotional connection to Kenny, or you can act more indifferent. So logically, either one of these answers is a lie, or both are right in a personal cannon."
No im not, you are simply ignoring that all humans arent the same.
Of course not all human beings are the same. That doesn't mean that basic principles can not exist. You're turning a blind eye to basic human functioning. Its basically impossible to just completely ignore someone you're li… [view original content]
Unlike Kenny, Jane doesnt have anger issues. Kenny even says "i oughta slap you" if you say Lee shouldnt have tried to save her. He punches … moreClementine if she tries to stop him from beating Arvo (accident of course, but thats what people can cause in anger). He ignores Clementine when she asks for help, if she falls through the ice.
Kenny's anger issues is one thing i dont like.
Jane left her sister because she was suicidal for months and she couldnt save her at the roof. She left the group because she didnt want to feel like shit after people she cares about dies. Pushing Kenny to the edge was stupid and unnecessary, but writers decided that Clementine doesnt care about her previous opinions about Kenny and decides to not leave him behind.
I dont really care about the baby, but it surely wasnt in any great danger inside the car. Walkers ignored even Clementine while she was shooting them, so they couldnt have done anything and the ba… [view original content]
Comments
Like i already said, taking ones life is enough for me. No point starting to torture someone, since i wouldnt want anyone to do that to me either.
Kenny is the one that forces Clementine to take the radio in the first place. I wouldnt like to be around people who keep putting me in danger.
I dont make lies about what Jane is, i face the facts as they are, something Kenny fans could also do.
It plays a role. Because he's a guy and (as Jane quite eloquently put it) is a "wounded warrior," he gets to be macho and brooding.
It's all subliminal.
I guess that makes some sense.
Think of it like this. If Kenny were a girl (shivers) do you think people would easily defend the actions he preformed throughout the series? Fuck no. They'd hate her. Hell, people say Jane is a "villain" because she did one very questionable thing in order to save a young girl she deemed was in danger.
Kenny can perceive Larry as a threat, it's cool. Jane can perceive Kenny is a threat, she's "evil."
It's the double standards.
Did I not just say both of them have their flaws? I'm not pro-kenny myself but I'm sick of people blaming everything on the guy. Jane knows how to survive, but she also lacks a lot of strong abilities. What she did at the end of ep5 was stupid and highly riskful. Putting a child in danger to prove a goddamn point is not justifiably right. She isn't perfect, if you are honest about who Jane is then you'll see that she is just as much a danger to Clementine than Kenny is. (Leaving her sister, leaving the group, pushing Kenny to the edge, endangering a baby's life)
She's not perfect, and neither is Kenny.
Unlike Kenny, Jane doesnt have anger issues. Kenny even says "i oughta slap you" if you say Lee shouldnt have tried to save her. He punches Clementine if she tries to stop him from beating Arvo (accident of course, but thats what people can cause in anger). He ignores Clementine when she asks for help, if she falls through the ice.
Kenny's anger issues is one thing i dont like.
Jane left her sister because she was suicidal for months and she couldnt save her at the roof. She left the group because she didnt want to feel like shit after people she cares about dies. Pushing Kenny to the edge was stupid and unnecessary, but writers decided that Clementine doesnt care about her previous opinions about Kenny and decides to not leave him behind.
I dont really care about the baby, but it surely wasnt in any great danger inside the car. Walkers ignored even Clementine while she was shooting them, so they couldnt have done anything and the baby was safe from the wind inside the car.
She indeed isnt perfect, but i consider her a lot safer companion than Kenny.
While there are many dialogue options for Clem to say "I'm not his friend, I don't like him" or things like that. What Clem says doesn't matter and we are forced to confront him either way because the adults are being babies. While we can say that we don't want to talk to him, we are forced to. The whole Jane and Clem thing made sense because they talk and share stories and they relate to each other. There is nothing that suggest Clem and Kenny had a meaningful conversation and relate to each other the same way Clem does with other people. You see that people Clem bonds with, she talks to and has meaningful conversations with. Lee. Luke. Nick. Christa. Omid. Pete. Ben. Katjaa. Sarah. The people who were Clem's closest friends had history yes, but they spent extended amounts of time with her, learning about her, taking the time to get to know her. Kenny never had that kind of time with her, yet we are pushed by the story to talk to him like an old friend when he clearly isn't one to Clementine.
She spent days with the people in season 2, some barely even that. She spent months with Kenny. He was the father of a friend and the closest companion (if not always friend) of someone who was a father figure to her. They don't ever have to be friends for that to count.
And even if that weren't the case (but it is) it still makes sense that they'd be pushed towards each other in the group because she's new and Kenny's even newer and, as far as every other character is concerned, she's still the one who knows him.
But you don't have to be his friend. Which makes this thread pointless.
...Do you not get what I'm saying. We are pushed to be Kenny's friend no matter what. Why should Clementine have to confront him all the time? Why can't someone else do it? Because we are told so many times no matter what we make Clem say that Kenny is our friend therefore we should talk to him. You even point out that she spends months with Kenny, but solely around Lee and Duck primarily. Meaning she didn't ever talk with Kenny so what reason does she have to be friends with him? For nostalgia sakes? And if we aren't pushed to be friends with him then how come in "A House Divded" every possible reception towards meeting Kenny again ends positively, and there is no option that says something like "Oh God. Not again" or something like that. We are pushed to be his friend that much is canon.
Yeah, and in the end, when Jane proposes leaving Kenny behind, Clementine disagrees, even if she thought Kenny was too dangerous. Its like every choice Clementine made about Kenny becomes irrelevant at that point.
ps. And even if she didnt want to go to north.
When they meet, they have history. He's is the person she has known longest on the entire planet and was part of a defining part of her childhood, connected to Lee and Duck. That's covered and the reactions do not require any genuine friendship.
And beyond that, it comes down to what the other characters think and that's covered too. They don't know Clem long and they barely know Kenny. But they do know that they know each other.
The only point where any of this might be valid is at the very end. The end is nuts (and yet even then you don't have to be a friend). But it's nuts with regards to Jane too and yet this wasn't a 'why are we being pushed to Kenny AND Jane' thread because its purpose is to be just yet another Kenny thread.
I don't know what your point is. You say they've known each other for a long time and that doesn't make them friends. Yet you say the other characters make us talk to him because they think they are friends. We are pushed to be Kenny's friend exactly because much of the 2nd Season is written from the viewpoint of someone who was great friends with Kenny and therefore believes majority of players are to. The Jane and Clem relationship isn't as bad as the Kenny and Clem relationship because Jane and Clementine spend a lot of time getting to know each other and of their pasts and through that they learn to trust each other.
The Kenny and Clem dynamic just doesn't make sense because there is little evidence to suggest that they are friends. This is why this is a Kenny thread. In Season 1, they have little dialouge besides "You're lucky you don't have spiders in your hair." and "Get ON the train Clementine." The only thing bridging the gap between them is Lee. The game doesn't take into account that some people weren't good friends with Kenny as Lee so why on Earth should Clementine be good friends with Kenny? It's a major flaw behind the thinking of the game.
My point is that they don't have to be friends, making all the friend-pushing comments redundant.
The reason as to why Clem and Kenny are so happy to see each other and as to why Kenny suddenly acts like Clem was always his pal is because Season 2's writers are too much in love with Kenny and wanted to force in a relationship that had no build up and no evidence to for it's plausibility, it's probably not even plausible considering I don't see any evidence and there is no indication for this bond always existing , the writers are at fault here for me. There was build up to the Christa and Clem relationship and it had great potential to grow into something meaningful, instead we have to deal with an extremely lame time skip that ruins and wastes any potential that relationship might have had, Telltale simply wanted to more things with Kenny, instead of Christa despite Clementine actually interacting with Christa in S1. I really don't see the foundation that you or extreme fanatics have invented for yourselves that Kenny and Clem ALWAYS HAD A BOND, I DON"T SEE IT, and maybe it's the fact I'm not in love with Kenny himself, this is also not a realistic zombie documentary, this is a story about characters with character arcs, do not pull that bullshit realistic argument because it will never work on me.
Not having a relationship =/= "Not knowing someone that well". The things you try and draw parallels to..
Can we even say that was a for sure honest answer from Clem anyway? Was it not possibly an option for people that wanted to distance themselves from Kenny and who they thought he was as a person? Considering another option is to have Clementine give a warm smile and state that they are old friends, we can't really make a for sure call here. What we can do is go with what actually makes sense, and that is Clementine and Kenny having some level of a relationship because they lived, struggled, survived with one another for over three months.
You're ignoring the point. The point is that we don't know how Clementine felt towards Kenny here, and we don't know if this event made a lasting impression either way. So again, telling me what I can or can't think on the matter is ridiculous.
Aaaand you ignored everything meaningful behind what I said. Shocking. I might as well copy and paste my previous response to you.
Umm... no you totally contradicted yourself and there is no denying that. A relationship requires at least two people. So if you're stating + giving examples as to how Clementine can push Kenny away/ break the possible relationship you can't possibly argue that the relationship between the two is forced upon you. You're pretty much beating yourself here..
Relationship:
J... I already touched on all of that. Why don't you take me up on the points that I made?
I'm not sure why you're backtracking on the plausibility argument. You had stated that it was plausible in your last response.
There was no more additional buildup between their relationship than there was in the Kenny-Clementine relationship (in terms of relationship status). The potential of the Christa-Clementine relationship is irrelevant.
So therefore the Kenny-Clementine relationship is forced and the Christa-Clementine relationship is not? What? The fact that the writers wanted to do more with Kenny is irrelevant. And come on, Christa's interaction with Clementine isn't even anything notable. You're splitting hairs here.
Hey, if you're all for ignoring basic logical thinking then go for it. Good luck trying to prove any points ever. Just because we're talking about a fictional story doesn't mean logic completely goes out the window (in the sense of how human beings function..).
With how basic human beings function, that's one of the reasons why I don't buy this relationship at all, Clem and Kenny show zero signs of interacting with each other in the first season. IT"S THERE AND I SEE IT with Clem and Christa, it had build up, there was a cetain foundation, there was NOTHING there for Kenny and Clem, NOTHING. You're reasoning for this relationship making sense doesn't make sense, you're just basing everything on assumptions, theories, and you're using the really stupid realistic argument, logic applies, but stuff needs to make sense, the Kenny and Clem relationship doesn't make sense, had no build up, there was no foundation for it, and i keep retreading because your points hold no value and are simply based on your own personal interpretation and you're free to think that there was a relationship and bonding, but I don't and apparently you'll just believe in a relationship as long as you're in love with a certain character, I really don't care for Kenny fanatics who try to act like there was something there when there really wasn't. That's your problem Belan, you're too much in love with Kenny to really look at this writing and actually think about it. I don't hate Kenny, i liked the moments where Clem and Kenny interacted in S2, But I'm NEVER EVER, EVER, going to use that as an excuse to defend messy and inconsistent writing.
This is pretty much what I've been saying, but sadly Kenny fanatics just flat out refuse to understand this viewpoint.
What i meant is that Kenny is just some guy Clementine knew from the past. Kenny wasnt her friend, they just happened to be part of a group. Only thing which was connecting them even the slightest was Katjaa, Duck and Lee. I have friend which i've known 15 years, yet i have no idea what kind of person his father is, i just know that he exists. Sure i say hi to him when ever i see him or talk about whats going on, but thats about it.
So when someone wants to murder your friend, it wont change your opinion about that person at all? Ok.
Kenny was a guy Clementine knew. He wasnt her good friend as the game lets you think. No matter what you say to Kenny or how you disagree with him, you still wont leave him behind when he leaves the car, even if you think he is dangerous and that he is getting you all killed by driving to north. And everyone (including writers) still thinks you are his friend, no matter your own opinion, even if you are given option to not like the guy.
ps. Theres a little language barrier here, since there is no proper english translation from certain finnish words.
Clem lived in a very tiny close community with Kenny for months. It's not the same as your friend's dad. She is connected to him. Doesn't make them friends. But it does connect them just as it connected her to almost everyone in that group. Had Lilly's last action not been to shoot someone in the face, Clem wouldn't have been far off reacting the same way had she turned up in season 2. It's a connection to someone who spent a lot of time with her during her time with Lee. That shit sticks with people.
This is built around a fallacy, which is the idea of "friendship". You don't have to be friends with Kenny in season 2.
Kenny brought it on himself. I don't share hardships with people who bring them on themselves, no matter who it is. Kenny not only stole property from a man after he killed one of his subordinates. Kenny (determinedly) shoots Carver, wounding him. He then constantly proves to be a colossal nuisance to the progress of Carver's community (getting in fights and damaging a possible entry point).
Kenny then acts all coy and cool like he'll just get off the hook? So naturally, Carver had to try to teach the hard head some respect by enforcing a punishment in the form of a brutal beat-down.
Well put. I'm usually against the notion of having ANY aspect of a PC beyond the player's control, but in this case, I'd say it would be ridiculous if Clementine wasn't at least somewhat emotional about Kenny's return, with or without the player's influence.
Kenny could never be Lee. He cared for Clem in S1 like any adult would care for a child in danger, but they barely had any interaction and I wouldn't have ever considered them "friends". I think their relationship in S2 was based on previously knowing each other and through their connection to Lee. It did grow stronger throughout S2, but was never even close to what Clem had with Lee.
Lilly saw stealing supplies as good as killing someone while they sleep.
Not really, I don't care about Carver, but the "kenny fans" logic is: (sorry for my English, I'm not native)
Kenny kills someone because he is furious, he is a hero... Lilly kills Carley/Doug because she was furious and sad, she is a maniac and deserves to die.
Kenny blames the other for everything that happen, he is right and the others are wrong because he is angry...
Kenny wants to take decisions over the others will, the others "betray" him because doesn't do what he want, so he is the victim and the others acts like bitches... An example of that decisions are killing Larry, doesn't stop the train when his son was dying, finding a boat, going to Wellington, among others...
In my case he didn't come to help to find Clementine, I support him in every decision except killing Larry and killing Ben, he told me that I wasn't there when he needs me so I told him that Clem was my only family, but when my Lee asks Ben for help, Kenny said that if ben came with me he wouldn't so I told him "FUCK YOU KENNY"... THAT is the proof that Kenny doesn't care about what happened to Clem in season 1...
They were living and surviving together. Simply putting it as "they were just part of a group" is an oversimplification and it ignores the actual dynamics of living with someone.
Do you live with your friend's father? Do you fight for survival with one another?
This comparison makes no sense.
As we have gone over already, Clementine had no reason to think Kenny wanted to murder Ben. Lee is the only person to see Kenny express the thought of letting Ben drop at the bell tower.
So? It was simply part of the story. You can still give your 2 cents, but Kenny does what he wants. That doesn't have anything to do with a forced friendship.
No its not. With your logic, Lilly should have been "friends" with Clementine, simply because they survived together. You can time around people and never get to know them.
This comparison makes no sense.
I spent most of my days in my friends house and saw him many times in week.
Clem and Kenny didnt fight for survival together. Kenny and Lee did most of the scavenging and Clementine simply was safe in the motel.
"you are fucking dead, you hear me! Dead!" and then later he votes to leave Ben behind. Im pretty sure Clem got the idea.
For the sake of forced Clementine - Kenny friendship, you cant leave him behind. Thats the problem this thread is all about. lousy story which expects people to like Kenny in the first place. It wasnt even a choice for me to go with Kenny, i had made up my mind about Kenny in season 1 and ep2 just made me hate him more after he got Walter killed. i had been waiting for a chance to leave Kenny behind ever since episode 2 ended and this was it. It wasnt hard decision as the writers intended, since i didnt have any sympathy left for Kenny. Only reason i took long with the decision was because i wanted to make sure i press the right button to shoot Kenny. The biggest decision in the season didnt have any effect on me, because i didnt care about the other character to begin with. Imo, Kenny should have died by Carver's hand and Carlos should have had bigger role.
It is absolutely an oversimplification for reasons I have already explained. How can you possibly ignore the dynamics that come with living together, let alone struggling and surviving together? That's just absurd.
I'm sure Lilly and Clementine had a relationship of some kind, though I have no clue whether it was a good one or not. No one does. It never got touched on.
Still not even remotely comparable.
And your personal experience isn't necessarily indicative to the norm, anyway. People form bonds when living with one another for months at a time. People form bonds when struggling and surviving with one another for months at a time. There is no way that Kenny was "just some guy". If someone lived with you for three months you would form some form of a relationship with that person. It is essentially unavoidable.
You're taking what I said far too literally. I'm simply saying she was part of the shared struggle.
"Pretty sure."
You're just guessing. Nothing Kenny said there actually for sure showed that he wanted to murder Ben. We have no clue what Clementine got out of it.
So, you're telling me that if you don't have the option to leave a character behind, that character relationship is forced?
By your logic, basically every relationship in the game is forced.
And you are completely ignoring the fact that they didnt know each other that well and werent good friends.
So spending time in my friends house in 9 years period isnt comparable for spending 3 months around someone?
Clearly you havent lived with strangers in same house before.
If you are just going to close your eyes, block your ears and sing, i guess i should just not talk about this, since you clearly have nothing to defend Kenny with.
Kenny was driving them to north, he said the car would turn back only if they killed him, "from my cold dead fingers" and so on. My Clementine was pretty much always against Kenny and didnt want to go north. She had a chance to basically save her own life and she refuses because "Kenny is a friend, even though i never liked him". So my Clementine doesnt want to leave behind a guy she never liked, thinks is too violent and reckless and he is driving them to north for suicidal mission.
We don't know this to be true at all. We have been over this already.
You have the option to either say you don't know Kenny all that well or you have the option to give a warm reminiscing smile and state that Kenny is an old friend. So logically, either one of these answers is a lie, or both are right in a personal cannon. There is nothing to argue about here. My point still stands (and you really didn't address it anyway):
"It is absolutely an oversimplification for reasons I have already explained. How can you possibly ignore the dynamics that come with living together, let alone struggling and surviving together? That's just absurd."
You really like changing your story, don't you? I don't believe you, but that's besides the point. Perhaps you are actually an anomaly. Regardless, most normal human beings who spend that much time around one another are going to form some kind of bond.
Yeah, no one has, because that is completely fucking unheard of.
You're really a waste of time.
What you're telling me is your own interpretation. We have NO evidence of how Clementine perceived the situation.
So please, don't tell me that I'm choosing to blindly ignore something that isn't even remotely evident.
I'm just going to go ahead and repeat what I said in my last response to this, because it still applies:
"So, you're telling me that if you don't have the option to leave a character behind, that character relationship is forced? By your logic, basically every relationship in the game is forced."
Obviously if we start taking all of this "forced" nonsense super literally we can argue that every character has a forced relationship simply by being in the game. Using this argument in the context that you're trying to use it is just silly. Just because you didn't agree with what Kenny was doing doesn't mean you should have had the option to leave him. There was a story to tell. Obviously something like that would change everything. Only so many outcomes can be written.
This argument would be like me arguing that I should have had the opportunity to get rid of Lilly earlier in Season One simply because I thought she was a detriment to the group. Man... that Lilly relationship was so forced..
the friendship is not forced. there are multiple alternate dialog choices you can choose which really in my opinion define your friendship with kenny. like it or not the fact that they knew each other in season one means they are old friends even though they may not have interacted much in season 1. you can choose to be overly positive toward him or you can state that you dont know him well and oppose him at every turn. granted this does not effect his strong feelings for clem but after loosing katjaa and duck i cant really blame him for reaching out to clem like he does.
Saying he is an old friend doenst have as obvioust meaning as "i dont know him that well actually".
I guess its just us finns. And how did i change my story? (its 9am here so im pretty tired)
what is that even supposed to mean?
What you're telling me is your own interpretation. We have NO evidence of how Clementine perceived the situation.
So please, don't tell me that I'm choosing to blindly ignore something that isn't even remotely evident.
My previous statement still stands.
I think you are ignoring that from my Clementines point of view, going to north was suicidal and that was the only direction the car was going with Kenny driving it. His "opinion" was putting everyone at risk of dying, so dont treat it as ordinary opinion. From my pov, staying with Kenny and search for Wellington was as good as staying with Sarah and dying.
And i think that how Clementine's interactions affected other characters and their future interactions with you was done poorly in this season anyway.
If the game didnt give a chance to leave Lilly behind, would you not be annoyed? Kenny had already caused 1 of my friends to die, even after i told him not to shoot because Carver would just kill someone, but he didnt listen. After that he does the stupid rambo truck plan, but luckily Troy is an idiot, then forces Clementine to take the Radio even is she says "Mike should have it". He shot Rebecca and caused a firefight to start, beats Arvo and causes disagreement within the group, breaks the group, forces Clementine to go on suicidal mission and she is still supposed to like him enough to not leave him behind to save her own life? It made no sense considering everything that had happened before in MY playthrough. Lilly was a threat to Lee's friends, not to Lee, but you could leave her. Kenny was threat to Clementine's friends and to her, but you cant leave him. Why dont you just accept that the writers fucked up?
i pretty much agree with most of what you have said the things i don't agree with are the fact you are comparing carver's death to carley/doug's you can't compare the two carver was a psycho and held the group hostage and beat kenny he deserved it carley/doug done nothing to deserve the death they got you can't compare the two and with the larry situation it was simple you either take the chance of being eaten or killing larry there wasn't much options
There were months we didn't see in seas 1 and Duck was her friend so your point 1 is wrong
ben almost got her killed and was also responsible for ducks death and katjaas because of that
your point 3 i laughed because your precious jane wants to leave almost everyone behind and kenny didn't leave him behind so your point is irrelevant
and what is it with you kenny hate because you can also say he is your friend but i never see you saying anything like that
sad...
Forgot about this.
You're not really doing anything to disprove what I'm saying.
You have been adding to it every time you bring it up. It makes it sound as if you're embellishing.
Regardless, people do not live with other people for an extended period of time and not form some kind of bond. People do not struggle together with others while living among each other for an extended period of time and not form some kind of bond. You're being entirely unrealistic. You're denying basic human psychology. Hell, you're denying basic animal psychology. There is no way Kenny and Clementine lived among one another in a small group fighting through an apocalyptic environment and somehow, beyond all reason, ended up being completely indifferent to one another. The chances of that happening might as well be zero. It doesn't even matter if we didn't see clear evidence on screen. It wasn't needed in order for Telltale to build on their relationship in season two.
Why? Just because you say it does? Sorry, but that reply is 100% meaningless in regards to helping your argument.
There is no shame in admitting that you were wrong..
And I think you are ignoring the fact that I already completely addressed this. Just because you weren't a fan of what Kenny was doing doesn't mean you should be given the choice to abandon him. There was a story to tell. If Telltale gave such dramatic alternatives for every single narration that someone wanted to part from, then nothing would ever get done. What you're asking for is pretty ridiculous. Just because you were stuck with Kenny doesn't give you reason to claim that the relationship was "forced" (unless you want to take that super literally... but that's obviously not what we're talking about).
No, because that is a completely ridiculous thing to ask for. I'm not going to demand the story to give me a cop out of every single situation that I don't want to be a part of. That is crazy unrealistic to storytelling.
As much as I want to argue how illogical this point is, it is ultimately completely irrelevant for the reasons stated in the last two paragraphs above.
Yes i am, but you just ignore my arguments. No point to keep repeating what i say, since you dont understand anyway.
No im not, you are simply ignoring that all humans arent the same.
They only knew each other from being around in same group. Clem knew what had happened to Kenny, but there is no point to assume that they actively talked to each other, since what would a 8 years old girl and +40 years old man have in common, besides being survivors? Kenny doesnt even care about Clementine in season 1 if Lee isnt his good friend.
If im wrong about something, i have no problem admiting it. You just ignore obvious things just because you are biased and it would hurt your image about Kenny. Kenny wanted to murder Ben. He states that and even tries to make Lee do it. How the hell can you not see that he wanted Ben dead? The group wasnt going to allow him to just murder Ben, but as soon as there came situation to let it happen, Kenny took it.
So Clementine is suicidal because of a guy she doesnt even like or agree with and thinks is dangerous, who forced her to go north? It was bad writing and any sane person would have left Kenny in that situation (considering what happened in my playthrough).
So its better to force player to do things they consider very stupid, just for sake of story?
I haven't ignored a single argument, please don't play that card. Could you please instead actually address what I said to you? Here, I'll quote myself so you don't have to go back and read:
"That isn't true at all. There is literally no way to measure that. You're just assuming either way. What does it matter anyway? You either have the ability to clearly show an emotional connection to Kenny, or you can act more indifferent. So logically, either one of these answers is a lie, or both are right in a personal cannon."
Of course not all human beings are the same. That doesn't mean that basic principles can not exist. You're turning a blind eye to basic human functioning. Its basically impossible to just completely ignore someone you're living with... even if you consciously make an effort to not interact with them. They are still there... constantly. There is basically no possible way that you're going to avoid forming particular feelings about that individual. Then when you take into context the environment Kenny and Clementine were surviving in... come on. You're being blatantly obtuse here. There is no denying the legitimacy of a past relationship.
Okay, then please go back and address what I said.
"What you're telling me is your own interpretation. We have NO evidence of how Clementine perceived the situation. So please, don't tell me that I'm choosing to blindly ignore something that isn't even remotely evident."
Please tell me how your point "still stands" in regards to that. And please remember what we were talking about.. (Kenny freaking out at Ben when told that Ben had gotten his family killed).
This has absolutely nothing to do with anything we were talking about, so I'm not even going to defend the guy. I never said that Kenny didn't want Ben dead. Clearly Kenny wanted Lee to listen to Ben's wishes at the bell tower. This has nothing to do with the Clementine-Kenny relationship. She wasn't there for that exchange.
I seriously don't know if you even understand what you're talking about at this point. This is so irrelevant and entirely off course of what we were discussing. Are you purposely trying to warp the discussion?
Just like there is no point to assume that they did not talk to each other. And it doesn't even matter if they "actively" talked to each other or not. You can form feelings for someone without talking to them a lot. You can form feelings for someone simply from observation, or being around them.
Are you trying to tell me that children do not care about adults? If so, that is entirely false. They don't have to relate to one another in order to care for one another.
Ben and Clementine didn't have much of anything in common... yet Clementine considered Ben her friend. Its actually quite ironic that you have recognized the legitimacy of the friendship between these two and yet you completely refuse to acknowledge the relationship between Kenny and Clem. This is very telling. Put your biases aside and try looking at this situation objectively..
That isn't even necessarily true, and based on his reaction upon seeing Clementine for the first time in season two, we can absolutely write this opinion off. He was simply being vindictive towards Lee. If you tell him that Clementine is family, he recognizes his poor judgement and comes with you.
It doesn't matter if you wished to get away from Kenny there. The story didn't allow for otherwise at that point. You can't blame the writing just because you personally didn't want to be with Kenny. At that point in the story, you were stuck with him. Everyone has characters they don't like. You just have to deal with it.
Your argument here would be like me complaining about the fact that I didn't have the option to remove myself from Arvo. It would be a ridiculous argument to make... because it would obviously completely warp the story.
That's not the point at all. Whether you felt like the Wellington idea was stupid or not is completely irrelevant. This is a story, not real life. You aren't going to have complete control over every little thing that happens. The climax of the story was dependent upon you being stuck with Kenny at that moment. This means nothing in regards to the Kenny-Clementine relationship being "forced".
I already stated that calling someone old friend doesnt have as clear meaning as saying i dont really know him that well. I can call people from school old friends, even though i havent seen them in years and have no idea what they are like anymore. I can call them old friends, or just state the fact that i actually dont know them that well and both of them are valid, but other is just more harsh answer, even if its true.
You are speaking as if everyone would eventually be friends, just because they are around each other...
If you hear someone saying that they want someone dead and later votes that they leave him behind, how could you still like that person? He wants your friend dead/left behind... If you think Clementine didnt dislike Kenny for this, then you are delusional.
This is what i've been saying. They knew each other from being in same group but they werent ask close as the game lets us think in season 2.
He was just being nice to her. He even left her in middle of walkers, but this didnt change her opinion about Ben.It doesnt really matter that their friendship was shit from outside perspective, it still meant something to her.
IF you help his family, and appeal to family in that conversation, he helps you. If he really cared about Clementine, he would have helped to look for her, no matter how shitty treatment Lee gave to Kenny.
In my game, Clementine didnt like Kenny... That was the whole point why i was pissed off. She doesnt want to go north because she doesnt believe there is anything, yet Kenny forces you to go there and once you get a chance to go back, Clementine suddenly about her previous opinions about Kenny and his plans. That was very stupid and made no sense not being able to leave Kenny behind.
Bad story.
Ugh whenever someone sides with Jane or whenever someone has their own opinions on Kenny they automatically seem to be called anti-Kenny.