Good points, good points. Although torturing a baby would seem a little far fetched. Getting out of a potentially life threatening situation by using a baby to cover an escape is a bit more realistic.
The self-loathing thing is a given by the end of episode five, however. No matter who Clementine chooses to be or not be with, there's a ever-compiling mountain of evidence that Clementine is already quite broken and depressed by the events of season two. My breaking point was helplessly watching a young girl die while everyone just kind of meandered to the next thing. Never shedding a tear or talking about her ever again. And I really can't allow my Clementine to get attached to something that has nothing to give her in terms of safety and stability.
That's why I'd use it as bait or a distraction to ensure Clementine can live another day.
It's a solution, yeah, but only one for the problem of dying. For most other people, there's a secondary problem of hating themselves for wh… moreat they've become.
Surviving in really tough situations often means deciding how much self-loathing you're willing to put up with in order to make it through another day. For a lot of people in here, they draw the line at using a baby as live bait, regardless of whether or not they're emotionally attached to it. To them, committing such an act would mean hating themselves so much that life wouldn't be worth living.
Of course, different people have different thresholds for what they're willing to do to survive and yours seems to be a bit higher than most. But aside from complete psychopaths, I think everybody has some line that they're not willing to cross even if it means staying alive. For instance, what if staying alive means having to personally torture a baby to death? Could you still call it a solution then? I couldn't. And I'd be pretty appalled at anybody who could.
The baby has done nothing... literally NOTHING to deserve your disapproval. May I remind you it was the ADULTS that got the group in danger the entire time? AJ literally did nothing to put anyone in danger, except for Luke when YOU leave the baby out in the field.
No person, especially a baby or toddler, is going to WANT to die at all. What I said above is about not being afraid of death, but I still have a duty on this earth, and it's to protect AJ with all my energy.
The baby would be fine IF we had a group. But just Clementine to care for a baby? To constantly be in mortal danger cause it won't shut the … morehell up? My Clementine may be a "monster," but she'll be alive and not have a fate similar to Sarah... Or Pete, Reggie, Walter, Matthew, Luke, Omid... Lee.
They all died for nothing, my Clementine won't go down like that though.
Not immediately, but his existence has proven nothing but problems and stress for everyone involved.
Stress can lead to focus being lost and confusion which can then lead directly to a situation that will result in death because there's a loss of focus. Things have consequences, and don't just happen because of chance. AJ is the first in a long line of things that could very well go wrong, like a chain reaction.
Again it dosnt make him bad or that you should leave him but he is 100% a liability, he cant help or do anything himself. Its like Sarah but even worse, he cant even run away on his own and will attract walkers all the time.
Again I'd look out for him but he is a liability complteley
His existence has proven nothing. You can't tell me that AJ will get people killed based on what happened in Episode 4 and Episode 5.
The world can't get anymore stressed when you're fighting every day for your life. And sacrificing a baby isn't going to lessen the stress, it's going to add to it with that babies blood on your hands.
Not immediately, but his existence has proven nothing but problems and stress for everyone involved.
Stress can lead to focus being lost … moreand confusion which can then lead directly to a situation that will result in death because there's a loss of focus. Things have consequences, and don't just happen because of chance. AJ is the first in a long line of things that could very well go wrong, like a chain reaction.
You've made several statement's here which I can agree with, about how AJ hasent done anything to deserve being killed or used as bait, how what people "should" do in protecting an innocent child. I agree with all that. That's the way it "should" be. The world would heal and survive much better if every living person worked together to survive.
The fact of the matter is, none of that would happen. Consider all of the horrible things human's do to each other today, without the threat of an apocalypse. Murders, mass shootings, rapes, beheadings all happen in todays world, so you can just imagine what terrible thing's people would do during an apocalypse. You can argue that they are bad people, or sick or demented. Yes they are, but, so what! They wont care how you label them, you cannot make them feel guilt and change their way's, it's a apocalypse and many will do absolutely anything it takes to survive.
I'll tip my hat to those who say they would risk their lives to protect and innocent child. Good on you. But when that child is attracting walkers by crying from hunger, or you cannot climb the fence with a baby in your arm's, and find yourself covering AJ with your body to defend him, you'll be dead and AJ wil follow shortly after. Sure you died with honor and your morality and faith in tact, but in the end your still dead and AJ with you.
I will say, I never even thought of using AJ (or anyone as bait) and really doubt that I would, but I know I didnt want (my) Clem to be responsible for AJ. He is a liability as he will make noise, requires constant care, food etc and always be a source of anxiety for Clem.
Survival would simply be easier without the burden of a baby.
"The world can't get anymore stressed when you're fighting every day for your life. And sacrificing a baby isn't going to lessen the stress, it's going to add to it with that babies blood on your hands.
Yes it would! The baby being gone would eliminate the stress of having to care and protect it. Guilt may play a part with the blood on your hands only if you let it. I know alot of peole would do terrible things in order to survive and they will more than likely have to live with decisions they never thought they would have to make. Of course, that's human nature. but many could slaughter a family and use a baby as live bait and not even give it a second thought.
Point is.. debating right from wrong, good vs evil what one should or should not do is a completely worthless debate because it will all happen regardless in a apocalypse.
Last comment.. I saw a comment somone said about how AJ deserves a chance to survive. Yes, he does deserve a chance just like anyone else, but anyone else deserves the same chance and you cannot say a baby deserves more of a chance than anyone else. No he didnt ask to be born and is not responsible for anything that has happened or may happen. But at the same time, Clem didnt ask to be born, the zombie apocalypse wasnt her fault, nor was it Lee's or Kenny's or Jane's. So how can someone say a baby has more of a right to live than anyone else? An adult or young kid can at leaste defend themselves or contribute to a groups survival. A baby cannot.
To those who would sacrifice themselves to save the life of a baby, I salute your efforts and admire your courage as I lay a flower upon your grave.
His existence has proven nothing. You can't tell me that AJ will get people killed based on what happened in Episode 4 and Episode 5.
Th… moree world can't get anymore stressed when you're fighting every day for your life. And sacrificing a baby isn't going to lessen the stress, it's going to add to it with that babies blood on your hands.
I understand that there are people who don't like AJ and would prefer if he wasn't with Clem but I still can't help but feel that it's wrong… more. I consider AJ as a living person even though he's just a baby, it's still a human life and using him as a distraction for walkers would be like murdering an innocent person in cold blood. I'd rather take chances trying to save a life (just like Lee did for Clem) than only care about myself and end up dying later as a selfish loner who has lost her humanity. This baby deserves a chance as much as anyone else.
I'd really, badly want to leave the baby. But if I attempted to abandon him, I'd go back to him and take him. Why should I decide if a babys life is significant or not? Why should I decide if its my job to take care of him? It's not, but if that world won't give him a chance, then in my opinion it's my job to give him one.
You've made several statement's here which I can agree with, about how AJ hasent done anything to deserve being killed or used as bait, how … morewhat people "should" do in protecting an innocent child. I agree with all that. That's the way it "should" be. The world would heal and survive much better if every living person worked together to survive.
The fact of the matter is, none of that would happen. Consider all of the horrible things human's do to each other today, without the threat of an apocalypse. Murders, mass shootings, rapes, beheadings all happen in todays world, so you can just imagine what terrible thing's people would do during an apocalypse. You can argue that they are bad people, or sick or demented. Yes they are, but, so what! They wont care how you label them, you cannot make them feel guilt and change their way's, it's a apocalypse and many will do absolutely anything it takes to survive.
I'll tip my hat to those w… [view original content]
You're right! We could have given the food to adults who actually contribute to the group, but now with AJ, he take all of our food and also might cry and lure the walkers to us. Plus, he is also extremely unsanitary. Like I said, AJ is 100% liability, and must be left in Wellington, because I have grown extremely sick of this annoying little brat.
How is AJ a liability?
Again it dosnt make him bad or that you should leave him but he is 100% a liability, he cant help or do anyth… moreing himself. Its like Sarah but even worse, he cant even run away on his own and will attract walkers all the time.
Again I'd look out for him but he is a liability complteley
I respect your opinion, I have no qualms about keeping the little sack of "joy" if Clementine had a fairly big group of people. Unfortunatel… morey, by the end of "No Going Back," Clementine is down to two people (or just herself). Clementine's had a good run of being idealistic, now she needs to think about surviving, true surviving. Thinking ahead for the worst case scenario.
What if Clementine's completely overrun and has no other options but to die a horrible death alone or use the baby to ensure she lives another day? I choose the latter. And unfortunately people can't see past AJ dying, what about the image of Clementine and AJ dying? That's an image I don't want, and I refuse to let it occupy my mind.
Lee stated that "sometimes you have to hurt someone to protect the ones you care about." Well, AJ is not someone I care about, and keeping him will endanger the group because of the baby's priorities, which do not help the group in any way. My group age minimum would be eight years old, anyone under that age would be abandoned.
My Clementine is completely separated from anyone other than the baby by the end of season 2. So, that argument doesn't really carry much clout when the alternative is a slow lonely death. The baby does not serve me or my interests in any way, shape, or form. In fact, it hinders them greatly.
Now I can respect if you choose to hold on to some sense of value through AJ, but he doesn't make matters for Clementine any better. In fact, he lessens her chance of survival greatly. Whether you choose to accept this or not is completely irrelevant. He does hinder her survival chances, this is a fact. Another mouth to constantly care for, another life to constantly protect, and another ass to wipe is not what I want for my Clementine.
She's got more than enough to worry about without the inclusion of an infant who constantly cries out and needs supplies that Clementine doesn't have herself.
Sure, just let down the people who cared about you.
Kill an innocent child for your own safety. Although Lee wanted Clementine to be safe… more and survive, he wouldn't want it like that.
You said being amoral and evil are two completely separate things, but in this case, it's not.
My Clementine is completely separated from anyone other than the baby by the end of season 2. So, that argument doesn't really carry much cl… moreout when the alternative is a slow lonely death. The baby does not serve me or my interests in any way, shape, or form. In fact, it hinders them greatly.
Now I can respect if you choose to hold on to some sense of value through AJ, but he doesn't make matters for Clementine any better. In fact, he lessens her chance of survival greatly. Whether you choose to accept this or not is completely irrelevant. He does hinder her survival chances, this is a fact. Another mouth to constantly care for, another life to constantly protect, and another ass to wipe is not what I want for my Clementine.
She's got more than enough to worry about without the inclusion of an infant who constantly cries out and needs supplies that Clementine doesn't have herself.
I disagree.. How does choosing to survive make one a coward? Must we all be willing to risk or sacrifice our lives just to die a hero?
Is the soldier that stands, exposing himself to the enemy brave or foolish? Is the soldier that hides behind a sandbag shooting a coward or smart? It's all about perception.
Choosing to take on the responsibility of a baby in a ZA is foolish imo.. Leaving the baby is smart imo.
and again i'll say this, placing labels on people like coward, murderer or whatever is pointless. Who cares what someone else thinks.
Leave a baby to die may earn me being called a coward or murderer, but so what, i'm still alive regardless what names you place on me. Your opinion doesnt help nor hinder me. The ONLY names or opinions that should matter are the ones we place on ourselves.
Senerio time: You and your family, no food, water, meds, nothing.. just a couple days away from death.. You come across a similar family, innocent people just like you but they do have some supplies.. Your options are, Leave them alone and let you and your children die. or, Kill the other family and take their supplies for your children so they may live.
I'd like to make the comparison of what you said to certain dictators, but I know I would be banned for it.
What you said above makes you only one thing; a coward.
The soldier who fights in battle in the first place is brave.
People will say anything to themselves to make themselves feel better, to make them seem justified. It doesn't make the crime less evil. People who kill another for any reason other than self defense is a murderer, you can't justify it any other way. You tell yourself justifications in order to make yourself feel better. Lee justified his murder by saying he was a bad man, and maybe he was, but he didn't deserve death.
I disagree.. How does choosing to survive make one a coward? Must we all be willing to risk or sacrifice our lives just to die a hero?
I… mores the soldier that stands, exposing himself to the enemy brave or foolish? Is the soldier that hides behind a sandbag shooting a coward or smart? It's all about perception.
Choosing to take on the responsibility of a baby in a ZA is foolish imo.. Leaving the baby is smart imo.
and again i'll say this, placing labels on people like coward, murderer or whatever is pointless. Who cares what someone else thinks.
Leave a baby to die may earn me being called a coward or murderer, but so what, i'm still alive regardless what names you place on me. Your opinion doesnt help nor hinder me. The ONLY names or opinions that should matter are the ones we place on ourselves.
Senerio time: You and your family, no food, water, meds, nothing.. just a couple days away from death.. You come across a similar … [view original content]
Calling me a coward does nothing to strengthen your argument. In fact, I'm more sure than ever using AJ as bait is the right choice because of your insult.
I'd like to make the comparison of what you said to certain dictators, but I know I would be banned for it.
What you said above makes you only one thing; a coward.
Calling me a coward does nothing to strengthen your argument. In fact, I'm more sure than ever using AJ as bait is the right choice because of your insult.
Thank you.
Because a coward is someone who can not do what it takes to survive. Whether that means Clementine has to use a baby to escape a life threatening situation to ensure her life. She will do what it takes to see another day.
Also, you relying on personal insults doesn't help me to understand your ridiculous points that go in circles. "Why kill a baby" should be changed to "why use a baby to escape certain death?" You keep painting this act as black when it's quite obviously a dark shade of grey. Clementine + herd of flesh eating zombies + inescapable situation - baby = much higher chance of survival.
First I need to say; I used the soldier anology as an example.. I am a 10year Navy vet so I have nothing but respect for anyone who put's on a uniform and fights to defend my country.
You are correct that most people will justify their actions in some way to help themselves cope with their decisions. Yes, that is human nature! But when you use the Lee reference, let's not forget that lee killed him in the fight, Lee did not intend to murder him but as a result he died. The senator didnt deserve to die just for cheating with a married man's wife. The baby doesnt deserve to die just because he was born. No one deserves to be ripped apart and eaten by zombies but it all happens.
And I would still like to know your answer to the senerio I gave. I noticed you kinda skipped over that question.. What would you do in that situation??
The soldier who fights in battle in the first place is brave.
People will say anything to themselves to make themselves feel better, to m… moreake them seem justified. It doesn't make the crime less evil. People who kill another for any reason other than self defense is a murderer, you can't justify it any other way. You tell yourself justifications in order to make yourself feel better. Lee justified his murder by saying he was a bad man, and maybe he was, but he didn't deserve death.
Comments
Good points, good points. Although torturing a baby would seem a little far fetched. Getting out of a potentially life threatening situation by using a baby to cover an escape is a bit more realistic.
The self-loathing thing is a given by the end of episode five, however. No matter who Clementine chooses to be or not be with, there's a ever-compiling mountain of evidence that Clementine is already quite broken and depressed by the events of season two. My breaking point was helplessly watching a young girl die while everyone just kind of meandered to the next thing. Never shedding a tear or talking about her ever again. And I really can't allow my Clementine to get attached to something that has nothing to give her in terms of safety and stability.
That's why I'd use it as bait or a distraction to ensure Clementine can live another day.
Clementine is a girl though, so I'm not exactly following your logic.
The baby has done nothing... literally NOTHING to deserve your disapproval. May I remind you it was the ADULTS that got the group in danger the entire time? AJ literally did nothing to put anyone in danger, except for Luke when YOU leave the baby out in the field.
How is AJ a liability?
Wth? No!
No person, especially a baby or toddler, is going to WANT to die at all. What I said above is about not being afraid of death, but I still have a duty on this earth, and it's to protect AJ with all my energy.
I need to remind you again that AJ has not put anyone at all in danger.
Not immediately, but his existence has proven nothing but problems and stress for everyone involved.
Stress can lead to focus being lost and confusion which can then lead directly to a situation that will result in death because there's a loss of focus. Things have consequences, and don't just happen because of chance. AJ is the first in a long line of things that could very well go wrong, like a chain reaction.
Again it dosnt make him bad or that you should leave him but he is 100% a liability, he cant help or do anything himself. Its like Sarah but even worse, he cant even run away on his own and will attract walkers all the time.
Again I'd look out for him but he is a liability complteley
His existence has proven nothing. You can't tell me that AJ will get people killed based on what happened in Episode 4 and Episode 5.
The world can't get anymore stressed when you're fighting every day for your life. And sacrificing a baby isn't going to lessen the stress, it's going to add to it with that babies blood on your hands.
You've made several statement's here which I can agree with, about how AJ hasent done anything to deserve being killed or used as bait, how what people "should" do in protecting an innocent child. I agree with all that. That's the way it "should" be. The world would heal and survive much better if every living person worked together to survive.
The fact of the matter is, none of that would happen. Consider all of the horrible things human's do to each other today, without the threat of an apocalypse. Murders, mass shootings, rapes, beheadings all happen in todays world, so you can just imagine what terrible thing's people would do during an apocalypse. You can argue that they are bad people, or sick or demented. Yes they are, but, so what! They wont care how you label them, you cannot make them feel guilt and change their way's, it's a apocalypse and many will do absolutely anything it takes to survive.
I'll tip my hat to those who say they would risk their lives to protect and innocent child. Good on you. But when that child is attracting walkers by crying from hunger, or you cannot climb the fence with a baby in your arm's, and find yourself covering AJ with your body to defend him, you'll be dead and AJ wil follow shortly after. Sure you died with honor and your morality and faith in tact, but in the end your still dead and AJ with you.
I will say, I never even thought of using AJ (or anyone as bait) and really doubt that I would, but I know I didnt want (my) Clem to be responsible for AJ. He is a liability as he will make noise, requires constant care, food etc and always be a source of anxiety for Clem.
Survival would simply be easier without the burden of a baby.
"The world can't get anymore stressed when you're fighting every day for your life. And sacrificing a baby isn't going to lessen the stress, it's going to add to it with that babies blood on your hands.
Yes it would! The baby being gone would eliminate the stress of having to care and protect it. Guilt may play a part with the blood on your hands only if you let it. I know alot of peole would do terrible things in order to survive and they will more than likely have to live with decisions they never thought they would have to make. Of course, that's human nature. but many could slaughter a family and use a baby as live bait and not even give it a second thought.
Point is.. debating right from wrong, good vs evil what one should or should not do is a completely worthless debate because it will all happen regardless in a apocalypse.
Last comment.. I saw a comment somone said about how AJ deserves a chance to survive. Yes, he does deserve a chance just like anyone else, but anyone else deserves the same chance and you cannot say a baby deserves more of a chance than anyone else. No he didnt ask to be born and is not responsible for anything that has happened or may happen. But at the same time, Clem didnt ask to be born, the zombie apocalypse wasnt her fault, nor was it Lee's or Kenny's or Jane's. So how can someone say a baby has more of a right to live than anyone else? An adult or young kid can at leaste defend themselves or contribute to a groups survival. A baby cannot.
To those who would sacrifice themselves to save the life of a baby, I salute your efforts and admire your courage as I lay a flower upon your grave.
YEP.
Plus he can't defend himself, might as well give him a chance
I'd really, badly want to leave the baby. But if I attempted to abandon him, I'd go back to him and take him. Why should I decide if a babys life is significant or not? Why should I decide if its my job to take care of him? It's not, but if that world won't give him a chance, then in my opinion it's my job to give him one.
Leave AJ in Wellington and then I'll take off with Kenny.
You're right! We could have given the food to adults who actually contribute to the group, but now with AJ, he take all of our food and also might cry and lure the walkers to us. Plus, he is also extremely unsanitary. Like I said, AJ is 100% liability, and must be left in Wellington, because I have grown extremely sick of this annoying little brat.
Let's leave AJ behind! One less liability and more mobility!
Lee stated that "sometimes you have to hurt someone to protect the ones you care about." Well, AJ is not someone I care about, and keeping him will endanger the group because of the baby's priorities, which do not help the group in any way. My group age minimum would be eight years old, anyone under that age would be abandoned.
People are monsters.
I personally don't care for him either. First time I have the chance to leave him it's "bye-bye time".
...And if it'll help me to not be ripped open like a bag of Doritos, then I'll take being a "monster" over that.
Sure, just let down the people who cared about you.
Kill an innocent child for your own safety. Although Lee wanted Clementine to be safe and survive, he wouldn't want it like that.
You said being amoral and evil are two completely separate things, but in this case, it's not.
My Clementine is completely separated from anyone other than the baby by the end of season 2. So, that argument doesn't really carry much clout when the alternative is a slow lonely death. The baby does not serve me or my interests in any way, shape, or form. In fact, it hinders them greatly.
Now I can respect if you choose to hold on to some sense of value through AJ, but he doesn't make matters for Clementine any better. In fact, he lessens her chance of survival greatly. Whether you choose to accept this or not is completely irrelevant. He does hinder her survival chances, this is a fact. Another mouth to constantly care for, another life to constantly protect, and another ass to wipe is not what I want for my Clementine.
She's got more than enough to worry about without the inclusion of an infant who constantly cries out and needs supplies that Clementine doesn't have herself.
I'd like to make the comparison of what you said to certain dictators, but I know I would be banned for it.
What you said above makes you only one thing; a coward.
****Drum beat**** It's the AJ Team.
I disagree.. How does choosing to survive make one a coward? Must we all be willing to risk or sacrifice our lives just to die a hero?
Is the soldier that stands, exposing himself to the enemy brave or foolish? Is the soldier that hides behind a sandbag shooting a coward or smart? It's all about perception.
Choosing to take on the responsibility of a baby in a ZA is foolish imo.. Leaving the baby is smart imo.
and again i'll say this, placing labels on people like coward, murderer or whatever is pointless. Who cares what someone else thinks.
Leave a baby to die may earn me being called a coward or murderer, but so what, i'm still alive regardless what names you place on me. Your opinion doesnt help nor hinder me. The ONLY names or opinions that should matter are the ones we place on ourselves.
Senerio time: You and your family, no food, water, meds, nothing.. just a couple days away from death.. You come across a similar family, innocent people just like you but they do have some supplies.. Your options are, Leave them alone and let you and your children die. or, Kill the other family and take their supplies for your children so they may live.
What are you?? murderer? savior to your children?
The soldier who fights in battle in the first place is brave.
People will say anything to themselves to make themselves feel better, to make them seem justified. It doesn't make the crime less evil. People who kill another for any reason other than self defense is a murderer, you can't justify it any other way. You tell yourself justifications in order to make yourself feel better. Lee justified his murder by saying he was a bad man, and maybe he was, but he didn't deserve death.
Calling me a coward does nothing to strengthen your argument. In fact, I'm more sure than ever using AJ as bait is the right choice because of your insult.
Thank you.
How does it by any means justify killing a baby?
Don't indulge him, Pokedme. It's not worth the time. He'll never try to consider no matter how much you try. His heart is set in stone.
Because a coward is someone who can not do what it takes to survive. Whether that means Clementine has to use a baby to escape a life threatening situation to ensure her life. She will do what it takes to see another day.
Also, you relying on personal insults doesn't help me to understand your ridiculous points that go in circles. "Why kill a baby" should be changed to "why use a baby to escape certain death?" You keep painting this act as black when it's quite obviously a dark shade of grey. Clementine + herd of flesh eating zombies + inescapable situation - baby = much higher chance of survival.
Protect Duck, protect Sarah, protect Becca and protect AJ to all cost!
Think about what AJ would do if he was in Clem's position... he would probably shit himself.
[removed]
First I need to say; I used the soldier anology as an example.. I am a 10year Navy vet so I have nothing but respect for anyone who put's on a uniform and fights to defend my country.
You are correct that most people will justify their actions in some way to help themselves cope with their decisions. Yes, that is human nature! But when you use the Lee reference, let's not forget that lee killed him in the fight, Lee did not intend to murder him but as a result he died. The senator didnt deserve to die just for cheating with a married man's wife. The baby doesnt deserve to die just because he was born. No one deserves to be ripped apart and eaten by zombies but it all happens.
And I would still like to know your answer to the senerio I gave. I noticed you kinda skipped over that question.. What would you do in that situation??
How do you know that, he is a baby, he haven't done anything yet.YET!
Exactly! He is a baby and what do babies do? what do babies do do? huh? huuuuHHH?
You know it!
The new name!
XD
When I first saw it I thought "When did I follow this?"
Now I cant stop laughing.
I could see the emperor from Star Wars sacrificing the baby if he's in trouble or he would just hit it with lightning screaming "Unlimited Power!".