Jane is not responsible for her death.
Yes she is. She tries to convince Clem that Sarah is beyond saving, and begs for her to pull … moreher up. She doesn't even try if Clem demands her to save Sarah. Mind you, she had a gun, and could've easily taken care of any on coming walkers, along with all those other dumbasses that just stood there on the deck, with their unlimited ammo.
Or are you just gonna say, that's an "out-of-universe" thing, again?
She actually kind of does. "Clem, we could leave. Right now." to which the game has Clem object. It doesn't let you simply say "Yes".
Kind of does isn’t actually asking her. And as the game has Clem seemingly object, well that should tell her that Clem didn’t want to leave her friend so the argument i will always say is that Jane should not have done what she did to force Clem’s hand to the decision that Jane wanted.
Kenny was not ok. Something did need to be done. Random outbursts of violence are not normal behavior, and it being the apocalypse is doesn't change that.
I disagree that something needed to be done but of course you knew that though, I think making someone even more angry whether or not it “fixes him” as you say still is not right or needed at all because as i have said, she put 3 lives in danger needlessly and what’s more Jane can’t be trusted after that. Kenny was no saint but he never ever lied about anything to anyone or staged a scene to prove a point that didn’t need to be made for the reason I said above.
I know you don’t give a crap at what i am about to say next and i bet you will almost certainly counter argue this but for one second maybe look at it from this view:
Imagine you were finally living a peaceful life with your new girlfriend at a ski lodge then a bunch of guys turn up on the run from a psychopath who eventually takes you and your girlfriend hostage, force you to do hard labour, you get your eye bashed in, you then lose your girlfriend, grieve again as the memories of losing your family haunt you once more, then have the added stress of being out on the road trying to survive again, later having to help deliver a baby, the baby’s mother dies who you seemingly cared for, then you have to care for that baby and try everything you can to keep the baby alive, you get ambushed and threatened to be robbed and killed by people and finally more stress when it comes to dealing with other members of the group who hate you for the way you have been acting all angry and frustrated about everything?
I don’t care what anyone says but after going through ALL that i’d say his outbursts and frustration is very normal, realistic and understandable unlike the other cardboard cutout characters who act like they just came out of a pub after drinking a nice cold pint on a sunny day. To think also how Bonnie and Mike kiss Arvo’s ass because they feel sorry for him, lol so laughable and unrealistic the fact that they would even trust him or care after what he and his pals did in trying to kill all of them moments before (and just because he didn’t take part fully in the gun fight doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have), he was after all busy with trying to save his sister.
Sure, he posed no immediate danger, but immediate danger is not the point.
Isn’t it? Because that is the reason Jane did what she did, to make a stupid point to show Clem how even more angry he can get. Kenny is like a beast who can be tamed by the right person and Jane is not that person. The argument above is about how nothing bad would have happened if she hadn’t done what she did.
The point is that they were being led into what was quite literally a suicide plan. And even if Jane had agreed to it (this being, of course, in the dream land where AJ survives a 9 day trip to Ohio with 1 day of formula and below 0 temperatures with nothing but a blanket),
And yet going back to Howe’s was exactly the same outcome, a 9 day trip with 1 day of formula with below 0 temperatures with nothing but a blanket. Both were bad plans. Now you’ll say “but Howe’s wasn’t suicidal”, accept it was just as much so. Why? Because they had already travelled hours north, turning back they would have ran out of petrol/gas with uncertainty they’d find more, even if they had, there is still risk of the herd being there outside Howe’s or nearby, if not that then perhaps some of Carver’s people had lived and would shoot them on sight? Jane also said ”i think Bonnie said there was baby formula” so she herself wasn’t sure for definite they would find it for the baby, and who knows if any other food remained? Turns out Wellington was found so the plan wasn’t suicidal in the end, and neither was Howe’s as both outcomes turned out ok for different reasons. But at the time neither plan was great due to the unknown.
The thing about all this is simply that the 9 day trip bollocks was awful AWFUL writing as we all agreed how insane that was in terms of how the baby could have survived in that time period.
what above ut long term? Would it be all about what Kenny wanted? Would they follow his word and his word only?
No one was stopping Jane from fucking off. I already said that she didn’t officially ask what Clem wanted. She had 2 choices, to either accept what was happening or leave on her own. In the long term? Jane would end up going on her own anyway because after they found Wellington her and Kenny would be refused entry if Clementine and AJ were the only ones allowed to stay so no it wouldn’t be all about what Kenny wanted or following his command because Jane would leave.
And you can't really blame Jane for not trying with him. It's not like she didn't try to talk him out of it repeatedly before doing what she did. When you believe you and others are being quite literally led to your death,
But as i have said, no one was stopping her from leaving if she didn’t like it and she shouldn’t have forced Clementine even if it was a bad decision.
you're going to tell me you won't be resorting to whatever drastic measures are necessary?
I certainly wouldn’t use an innocent baby as a way of baiting someone to do something. Sick and disturbing. So no, if i cared about the girl, i would have asked her what she wanted and respected her decision if she wanted to stay with him and I would leave if I thought the idea was bad. Even if it turned out to be the wrong call by Clem, that wasn’t for Jane to decide what was best for her. Forcing a decision on Clem to get what she wanted her to do, just because she wanted another little sister so she wasn’t going to be alone again.
Now something I've been wondering about is how much Kenny murdering Jane actually contributed to him winding down his behavior in all of his endings. Like the killing of Jane made him realize "maybe I've gone a little too far, I need to take a step back"
You’re right and i do agree that he obviously realised it afterwards, it’s hinted as much when he says to Clem “i don’t trust myself to keep you safe, not anymore”. However, there definitely was a better way than what Jane horribly did. Hell, maybe even being nice to him might have calmed him down? It probably wouldn’t have because he didn’t like or trust Jane anyway but that was one possibility. Another would be to carry out her fucked up plan but mid way through the fight (the part where Kenny was backing off as she had the knife aimed at him thus gaining the upper hand) she could have said “oh by the way, the baby is alive yin the car over there, Clem go and get him. I just had to prove you were dangerous to Clem”. That way no one would have died either, he’d realised how it was.
If you can think of another way that she could have made him realise without using the baby as a tool or putting everyone’s life in danger like she did then great, i’m all ears. My biggest issue is the way she used the baby. It has always bothered me.
Ugh, spent all evening typing this. On my phone too! Nightmare. Hopefully we can just end it here and agree to disagree.
Hope all is well with you too dan :^)
She never once asked Clem if she wanted to stay with Kenny or go back to Howe’s with her.
… more She actually kind of does. "Clem, we could leave. Right now." to which the game has Clem object. It doesn't let you simply say "Yes".
Kenny was not ok. Something did need to be done. Random outbursts of violence are not normal behavior, and it being the apocalypse is doesn't change that. Furthermore, he wasn't approachable. At all. Sure, he posed no immediate danger, but immediate danger is not the point. The point is that they were being led into what was quite literally a suicide plan. And even if Jane had agreed to it (this being, of course, in the dream land where AJ survives a 9 day trip to Ohio with 1 day of formula and below 0 temperatures with nothing but a blanket), what about long term? Would it be all about what Kenny wanted? Would they follow his word and his word only?
And you can't re… [view original content]
Yes, Luke was very naive and he was seduced i guess you could say. He should have been keeping an eye out for walkers. Him and Jane put the group in danger because of their antics. That’s a fact.
Eh, she was sane enough, I guess. She still agreed with stupid ideas such as fleeing and destroying a safe and well supplied community (beca… moreuse a little complacency was such a huge sacrifice), throwing herself and the group to the middle of a raging herd while being shot at from above (real smart), and crossing that damn ice lake on what had to be the wider crossing they could find (like, seriously...).
But alas, if a blind eye isn't turned on these three situations literally every single character in S2 was a stupid mouth breather.
She really did have the smartest ideas and plans, which all proved to have ended up profiting once put in practice. She did more for the group than people give her credit for. She is the one who saved Rebecca from the herd, who had the skill to get that observation deck open, the one who considered doing something morally corrupt only to give Rebecca a more comfortable labor, and really the only one who move… [view original content]
That's what I was saying, IWL. Dan's suggestions for alternatives for Jane regarding how to approach Kenny just don't work. She couldn't talk to him. She couldn't leave with Clem. So she either had to live with Kenny or show Clem what he could do.
Hope all is well with you too dan :^)
She never once asked Clem if she wanted to stay with Kenny or go back to Howe’s with her.
… more She actually kind of does. "Clem, we could leave. Right now." to which the game has Clem object. It doesn't let you simply say "Yes".
Kenny was not ok. Something did need to be done. Random outbursts of violence are not normal behavior, and it being the apocalypse is doesn't change that. Furthermore, he wasn't approachable. At all. Sure, he posed no immediate danger, but immediate danger is not the point. The point is that they were being led into what was quite literally a suicide plan. And even if Jane had agreed to it (this being, of course, in the dream land where AJ survives a 9 day trip to Ohio with 1 day of formula and below 0 temperatures with nothing but a blanket), what about long term? Would it be all about what Kenny wanted? Would they follow his word and his word only?
And you can't re… [view original content]
you realize that would have changed nothing, they still would have went up to the deck, and it would collapse and Sarah would die. Jane is not responsible for her death.
Uh, yes it would've. Luke would've gotten everyone moving faster, there'd be more time to prepare for the Observation Deck Defense, which would mean the deck may not have collapsed over the mistake that caused it and Sarah(and Jane, for that matter) probably wouldn't even be in a position where they'd be too far out to get to safety in time in the event it still does.
The Butterfly Effect is a powerful thing.
Oh by the way, I didn't see anyone else leap down to help Sarah.
Can't have anyone besides Jane get any big action/cool or sympathizing moments, can we?
know what’s safe having sex when your supposed to be securing a deck and keeping watch
you realize that would have changed nothing, … morethey still would have went up to the deck, and it would collapse and Sarah would die. Jane is not responsible for her death.
Oh by the way, I didn't see anyone else leap down to help Sarah.
Jane is not responsible for her death.
Yes she is. She tries to convince Clem that Sarah is beyond saving, and begs for her to pull … moreher up. She doesn't even try if Clem demands her to save Sarah. Mind you, she had a gun, and could've easily taken care of any on coming walkers, along with all those other dumbasses that just stood there on the deck, with their unlimited ammo.
Or are you just gonna say, that's an "out-of-universe" thing, again?
She still agreed with stupid ideas such as fleeing and destroying a safe and well supplied community (because a little complacency was such a huge sacrifice), throwing herself and the group to the middle of a raging herd while being shot at from above (real smart), and crossing that damn ice lake on what had to be the wider crossing they could find (like, seriously...).
To be fair, most of those are things she likely would've done away. In fact, she essentially led the charge there.
That last one is...well, you already said.
She is the one who saved Rebecca from the herd, who had the skill to get that observation deck open, the one who considered doing something morally corrupt only to give Rebecca a more comfortable labor, and really the only one who moved a straw to go out there and save Luke at that trailer park.
You know, I realize it's really friggin easy to say, but it's true--any character could've done most of that if given the chance. Mike in particular was advocating for that last one, primarily.
Of course, this is all somehow overshadowed by Sarah's death,
Correction: All that is overshadowed by Jane's general coldblooded approach to things and actually causing more problems in the long-run.
Even when it remotely involves personal things. Especially when it involves personal things.
which is, through some mysterious reality bending, actually pinned on Jane rather than Sarah herself (you know, the person actually endangering everyone by refusing to move),
She sure as hell wasn't doing anything to help the situation. And was actually making things worse, to be blunt.
as if somehow Jane was the one making Sarah choose not to move
Well, let's be honest here--who else has to gain from the writing decision to have Sarah not move even when you're clearly able to convince her under not too specific conditions? Or from throwing away Sarah in general?
I'll give you hint: It's not actually Molly.
on both occasions
Even though she was stuck under a pile of rubble that Jane couldn't lift past the midriff in the second occasion and was clearly not able to move forward despite visible trying to.
considering he wasn't even scouting through the woods in the first place but only out in open places.
Well, logically speaking, why would he have been scouting through the woods when everyone else is in a relatively open space outside of the woods and his presence there could actually just end up further drawing the herd in behind him on his way to warn the group?
the one person who ever actively does anything to save that girl is the one people decide to pin the girl's death into.
Considering she's the one who even makes her death a distinct result and/or makes it happen in both instances, you really shouldn't be surprised.
She was pointing out a fact: Kenny was going insane and needed a wake up call to get over his own insanity.
Eh, she was sane enough, I guess. She still agreed with stupid ideas such as fleeing and destroying a safe and well supplied community (beca… moreuse a little complacency was such a huge sacrifice), throwing herself and the group to the middle of a raging herd while being shot at from above (real smart), and crossing that damn ice lake on what had to be the wider crossing they could find (like, seriously...).
But alas, if a blind eye isn't turned on these three situations literally every single character in S2 was a stupid mouth breather.
She really did have the smartest ideas and plans, which all proved to have ended up profiting once put in practice. She did more for the group than people give her credit for. She is the one who saved Rebecca from the herd, who had the skill to get that observation deck open, the one who considered doing something morally corrupt only to give Rebecca a more comfortable labor, and really the only one who move… [view original content]
Well, in context, he was reeling from string of things going wrong and his group members being killed despite his efforts to avoid those things.
In particular, he'd
been suffering from a lack of sleep,
lost his best friend,
gotten beaten down after getting himself caught over a growling stomach, sustaining a fairly inhibiting injury as a result
seen the rivaling tagalong of the group get beaten down even worse,
found himself unable to do anything but refuse involvement with the murder of a man he hates,
and finally found himself ashamed at not only failing to get Sarah out of a frying pan himself, but also caving in when Jane suggested that they might have to leave her.
So in short, yeah, Jane came at him when he was vulnerable and would gladly take the chance to focus on something else besides survival for once.
That's what I was saying, IWL. Dan's suggestions for alternatives for Jane regarding how to approach Kenny just don't work. She couldn't talk to him.
Of course you’d say that because after all it’s Kenny and you see everything a fan like me says of him is wrong. This wasn’t just about Kenny, it was more about Clementine. She did what she did “for” Clem she claims and yet i am saying there had to be another way than staging a sick, dangerous stunt to prove that point. And i feel you’re wrong for saying my suggestions don’t work. It’s Clem she should have talked to and maybe Clem could have got through to him but ONLY if she had wanted to leave with Jane which she didn’t seem to want to.
You are only assuming that she couldn’t talk to him though. As i said, during the fight around the time Kenny was backing off, if she had actually confessed and told them that the baby was fine and waited for Clem to get the baby, that would have definitely calmed him down and no one would have died. I mean jeez, Kenny himself says “at any point she could have stopped what was happening by saying he was fine, she wanted a fight”, and it’s true. Every word of it.
So you’re just assuming he can’t be talked to basically. The game should have given us the choice of whether we leave or stay with Kenny and then none of this would even need to be discussed.
She couldn't leave with Clem. So she either had to live with Kenny or show Clem what he could do.
Yes and like i said for i think the 3rd or 4th time now, no one was stopping Jane from
going by herself. Clem seemed to want to stay and she should have accepted and respected that decision regardless of how she felt instead of dangerously forcing her into leaving him because she selfishly wanted Clem for herself.
The thing that bothers me most is how you guys seem to think what Jane did was justified just because she proved her point yet you don’t seem to care about the consequences of those actions or what affect that could have had on the baby, Clementine or even Kenny making him even more unstable but because it’s “Kenny” he deserves it in your eyes right?
That's what I was saying, IWL. Dan's suggestions for alternatives for Jane regarding how to approach Kenny just don't work. She couldn't talk to him. She couldn't leave with Clem. So she either had to live with Kenny or show Clem what he could do.
There was no other way, Dan. Everyone admits it was a dumb idea, but she already tried everything else. Everyone could see Kenny was dangerous (Bonnie, Mike, Luke, Jane) so Jane didn't want Clem around him. This wasn't about selfishness. She could have gone along with Kenny, but would that have helped anything? You're forced to do everything he wants and just bite your tongue and comply.
That's what I was saying, IWL. Dan's suggestions for alternatives for Jane regarding how to approach Kenny just don't work. She couldn't tal… morek to him.
Of course you’d say that because after all it’s Kenny and you see everything a fan like me says of him is wrong. This wasn’t just about Kenny, it was more about Clementine. She did what she did “for” Clem she claims and yet i am saying there had to be another way than staging a sick, dangerous stunt to prove that point. And i feel you’re wrong for saying my suggestions don’t work. It’s Clem she should have talked to and maybe Clem could have got through to him but ONLY if she had wanted to leave with Jane which she didn’t seem to want to.
You are only assuming that she couldn’t talk to him though. As i said, during the fight around the time Kenny was backing off, if she had actually confessed and told them that the baby was fine and waited for Clem to get the baby, that would have def… [view original content]
Everyone could see Kenny was dangerous (Bonnie, Mike, Luke, Jane)
Kenny only posed a threat if they themselves were a threat to him or those he cared about (Clem, AJ). The worst Kenny ever got with the group was shouting and being aggressive. Arvo was a different story as he and his dickhead pals tried to rob and kill Kenny and the whole group moments before and you wonder why Kenny treated Arvo the way he did?? Seriously, he was the only sensible one keeping his guard up, even if Arvo was tied up, who knows if he had managed to get free and become a threat. Mike and Bonnie were complete idiots to trust him and if you can’t see that because of your hate for Kenny then there is no point discussing it further.
so Jane didn't want Clem around him.
One again, that was not Jane’s call to make. You don’t force someone into a decision without asking them first.
This wasn't about selfishness. She could have gone along with Kenny, but would that have helped anything? You're forced to do everything he wants and just bite your tongue and comply.
It was selfish. Jesus Christ! So you don’t think it was selfish putting a helpless baby in a freezing car risking its life? Or dont you count the baby as a human being because it can’t talk yet??
You’ve basically ignored what i said above so once again i will paste it here for you to acknowledge:
This wasn’t just about Kenny, it was more about Clementine. She did what she did “for” Clem she claims and yet i am saying there had to be another way than staging a sick, dangerous stunt to prove that point. And i feel you’re wrong for saying my suggestions don’t work. It’s Clem she should have talked to and maybe Clem could have got through to him but ONLY if she had wanted to leave with Jane which she didn’t seem to want to.
You are only assuming that she couldn’t talk to him though. As i said, during the fight around the time Kenny was backing off, if she had actually confessed and told them that the baby was fine and waited for Clem to get the baby, that would have definitely calmed him down and no one would have died. I mean jeez, Kenny himself says “at any point she could have stopped what was happening by saying he was fine, she wanted a fight”, and it’s true. Every word of it.
Clem seemed to want to stay with Kenny and Jane should have accepted and respected that decision regardless of how she felt instead of dangerously forcing her into leaving him because she selfishly wanted Clem for herself (which she did).
And finally I believe I posted this to IronWoodLover, if Jane had gone along with Kenny she wouldn’t have had to do what he wants. Why? Because they would have found Wellington, her and Kenny would be refused entry and Clem and AJ would most likely stay there which means Jane would then be free to go off on her own anyway and wouldn’t have to stick around.
Quick question? What makes Jane’s opinions more valid than Kenny’s? I am not saying Kenny’s was more important because they weren’t but you keep on saying Jane or anyone shouldn’t do what Kenny says but why should Kenny do what anyone else says either? Who is right here? Answer is no one is. Which is why all along i have said that Clem should have been consulted on what she wanted to do.
A lot of people thought Kenny was dangerous including himself when Clem shoots him. I think it's undeniable that Kenny is wrong. When did Kenny back off during the fight? Clem never said she wanted to stay with Kenny and even so, Jane could see that Kenny was a dangerous influence on her, not unlike Stockholm Syndrome.
Everyone could see Kenny was dangerous (Bonnie, Mike, Luke, Jane)
Kenny only posed a threat if they themselves were a threat to him … moreor those he cared about (Clem, AJ). The worst Kenny ever got with the group was shouting and being aggressive. Arvo was a different story as he and his dickhead pals tried to rob and kill Kenny and the whole group moments before and you wonder why Kenny treated Arvo the way he did?? Seriously, he was the only sensible one keeping his guard up, even if Arvo was tied up, who knows if he had managed to get free and become a threat. Mike and Bonnie were complete idiots to trust him and if you can’t see that because of your hate for Kenny then there is no point discussing it further.
so Jane didn't want Clem around him.
One again, that was not Jane’s call to make. You don’t force someone into a decision without asking them first.
This wasn't about selfishness. She could have gone along with… [view original content]
Well it's not like Kenny kidnapped her or was forcing her to be with him in any way. Clementine is mature and capable enough to make the decision of who she wants to be with herself. It wasn't really a good move for Jane to hide the baby in my opinion and I like Jane. Having said that though, even as a big Kenny fan, part of me appreciates the fact that she had the guts to fight him and didn't just resort to running away from him or talking shit (mostly behind his back) like the other group members.
A lot of people thought Kenny was dangerous including himself when Clem shoots him. I think it's undeniable that Kenny is wrong. When did Ke… morenny back off during the fight? Clem never said she wanted to stay with Kenny and even so, Jane could see that Kenny was a dangerous influence on her, not unlike Stockholm Syndrome.
A lot of people thought Kenny was dangerous including himself when Clem shoots him. I think it's undeniable that Kenny is wrong.
Of course Kenny was wrong trying/succeeding in killing her but so is Jane for what she did in causing the fight in the first place and don’t forget that she tried to kill him too so if you don’t think she is wrong in any way then i’m sorry but you’re an idiot. I’ve already said (which you still ignored) that Kenny was only dangerous when someone threatened him or those he cares about. You make it sound like he was dangerous all the time. I completely disagree with that. Being angry or verbally insulting someone doesn’t make them dangerous.
Kenny and Jane were both wrong and you need to at least accept that.
When did Kenny back off during the fight?
Watch it again. After Jane slashes him he backs off and walks outside of the rest stop. In fact Jane CHARGED towards him with the knife when she didn’t need to because he was backing off. So tell me why she didn’t confess her plan there and then? “AJ is safe in that car over there Clem, go and get him. I wanted you to seen how Kenny was”. Tell me why she didn’t admit it then? Because she wanted a fight, that’s why, she wanted to probably kill him at that point too and she did try as well.
Clem never said she wanted to stay with Kenny and even so, Jane could see that Kenny was a dangerous influence on her, not unlike Stockholm Syndrome.
Which brings me to the question as to why no one asked her what she wanted to do? That’s the writing team’s fault. However we can strongly assume that Clem did want to stay because:
She never outright objected to Wellington.
She and Christa were going there anyway before they split up.
You would think she wouldn’t want to leave Kenny because she is closer to him than Jane as well as the fact he is the father of her best friend Duck who she was close with before Duck died.
That is my view anyway. Couldn’t care less if you disagree though. And what are you saying about Stockholm Syndrome? Explain what that has to do with anything here?
A lot of people thought Kenny was dangerous including himself when Clem shoots him. I think it's undeniable that Kenny is wrong. When did Ke… morenny back off during the fight? Clem never said she wanted to stay with Kenny and even so, Jane could see that Kenny was a dangerous influence on her, not unlike Stockholm Syndrome.
Well it's not like Kenny kidnapped her or was forcing her to be with him in any way. Clementine is mature and capable enough to make the dec… moreision of who she wants to be with herself. It wasn't really a good move for Jane to hide the baby in my opinion and I like Jane. Having said that though, even as a big Kenny fan, part of me appreciates the fact that she had the guts to fight him and didn't just resort to running away from him or talking shit (mostly behind his back) like the other group members.
Well, in context, he was reeling from string of things going wrong and his group members being killed despite his efforts to avoid those thi… morengs.
In particular, he'd
* been suffering from a lack of sleep,
* lost his best friend,
* gotten beaten down after getting himself caught over a growling stomach, sustaining a fairly inhibiting injury as a result
* seen the rivaling tagalong of the group get beaten down even worse,
* found himself unable to do anything but refuse involvement with the murder of a man he hates,
* and finally found himself ashamed at not only failing to get Sarah out of a frying pan himself, but also caving in when Jane suggested that they might have to leave her.
So in short, yeah, Jane came at him when he was vulnerable and would gladly take the chance to focus on something else besides survival for once.
Kenny only posed a threat if they themselves were a threat to him or those he cared about (Clem, AJ).
Wrong...Kenny was a danger to anyone who did not agree with him....he was willing to let Lee die if he did not agree to murder...he talked shit constantly about any idea that did not come out of his mouth. The man was a monster. Hell he is so broken he can only function if there are some people around he can try and impose his will. Otherwise he is unable to function at all...Sarita found him on his last legs and saved him...this of course makes me feel better about those who stayed at Wellington or just shot his ass....because I am sure with his inability to function outside of groups he died in the woods being eaten by critters and finally being shat out and becoming useful as nutrients for the forest.
Everyone could see Kenny was dangerous (Bonnie, Mike, Luke, Jane)
Kenny only posed a threat if they themselves were a threat to him … moreor those he cared about (Clem, AJ). The worst Kenny ever got with the group was shouting and being aggressive. Arvo was a different story as he and his dickhead pals tried to rob and kill Kenny and the whole group moments before and you wonder why Kenny treated Arvo the way he did?? Seriously, he was the only sensible one keeping his guard up, even if Arvo was tied up, who knows if he had managed to get free and become a threat. Mike and Bonnie were complete idiots to trust him and if you can’t see that because of your hate for Kenny then there is no point discussing it further.
so Jane didn't want Clem around him.
One again, that was not Jane’s call to make. You don’t force someone into a decision without asking them first.
This wasn't about selfishness. She could have gone along with… [view original content]
If i stated a good thing Kenny says or does, which is a genuine positive,for example, the way he put himself in harms way to save Christa, that is a positive point but someone like you would find a negative in that. See what i mean? I know your view is different but when it’s something like that, how can something like that seriously be negative?
I would not..I would say that saving Christa was good...I would point out that giving Lee a back smack is what led to the walkie falling down there...and Lee and Kenny not wanting to go down and fetch it. But that is not a disturbed thing..it was an accident.
If i stated a good thing Kenny says or does, which is a genuine positive,for example, the way he put himself in harms way to save Christa, t… morehat is a positive point but someone like you would find a negative in that. See what i mean? I know your view is different but when it’s something like that, how can something like that seriously be negative?
That was what i was trying to say
I see @DabigRG explaning that it's understandable Luke "caved in" to having sex with Jane because of the dire emotional state he was in. And it's possible.
But you're overlooking the fact that Jane herself had been in a position of having to advocate to leave a suicidal child to die, so Jane herself and two other people—including a second kid—would survive. And that this evidently triggered legitimate emotional disturbance due to how similar it was to the death of her own sister.
If you decide to give relevance to the motivations of characters in a given scene, I think the least you can do is have the same flexibility with all characters involved.
Sidenote, don't you think that if we were playing as Jane, the most reasonable choice would be to leave Sarah in the trailer to ensure that Clementine and Luke would survive?
If someone, generally a younger, more impressionable person, is being abused by an authoritative figure, that person may sometimes get used to that abuse to the point that he/she feels affinity for the abuser. Clem and Kenny aren't equals. He's old enough to be her father and adults who witness his behavior can see that he isn't good for Clem and that she may be too young to decide (Perhaps because of SS) for herself that she can stay away. Both Jane and Bonnie mention Clem thinking for herself. Kenny himself said it was the right choice shooting him. There's a reason everyone wanted to get away from him and you can bet Lee would have seen the same thing if he lived in season 2.
A lot of people thought Kenny was dangerous including himself when Clem shoots him. I think it's undeniable that Kenny is wrong.
Of … morecourse Kenny was wrong trying/succeeding in killing her but so is Jane for what she did in causing the fight in the first place and don’t forget that she tried to kill him too so if you don’t think she is wrong in any way then i’m sorry but you’re an idiot. I’ve already said (which you still ignored) that Kenny was only dangerous when someone threatened him or those he cares about. You make it sound like he was dangerous all the time. I completely disagree with that. Being angry or verbally insulting someone doesn’t make them dangerous.
Kenny and Jane were both wrong and you need to at least accept that.
When did Kenny back off during the fight?
Watch it again. After Jane slashes him he backs off and walks outside of the rest stop. In fact Jane CHARGED towards him with the knife when she … [view original content]
I wouldn't say Kenny did abuse her though. He got angry at her once and yelled at her and that's about it for me. That doesn't really count as abuse for me. If so, then did Rebecca abuse Clementine as well when they first met? Simply getting angry at someone... Nah I can't really call that abuse. What Carver did to Sarah, making Carlos slap her. Stuff like that is what I would what i'd call real abuse.
This Stockholm Syndrome thing you're talking about doesn't exist... no one is kidnapping her or forcing her to be with them. Clementine absolutely is old enough to make the decision on her own. The stuff she's seen and done, her maturity, her intelligence, her fantastic people skills that goes well beyond her years. She is definitely capable of making the decision on her own.
If someone, generally a younger, more impressionable person, is being abused by an authoritative figure, that person may sometimes get used … moreto that abuse to the point that he/she feels affinity for the abuser. Clem and Kenny aren't equals. He's old enough to be her father and adults who witness his behavior can see that he isn't good for Clem and that she may be too young to decide (Perhaps because of SS) for herself that she can stay away. Both Jane and Bonnie mention Clem thinking for herself. Kenny himself said it was the right choice shooting him. There's a reason everyone wanted to get away from him and you can bet Lee would have seen the same thing if he lived in season 2.
I speak to Dan outside of the forums and seeing as he can’t respond on his account till Saturday, here is his response -/
and that she may be too young to decide (Perhaps because of SS)
Since when was Clementine kidnapped? Do you even know what Stockholm Syndrome actually is? You’ve used the term wrongly there. And Clem is not too young to decide at all. She grew up faster than most in the apocalypse, all the adults look to her for everything in the game, Kenny mentions he’s seen her take care of herself better than 3 adults put together, which is true.
adults who witness his behavior can see that he isn't good for Clem
I have been over this time and time again and you have basically just ignored it every time. The “adults” can all gang up and think what they like, it’s still not their decision to make. Kenny was only ever a threat to people who either threatened him or those he cares about (Clem and AJ) and you know that. You can try all you want to change my mind but it won’t happen and i know I’m wasting my time speaking to you too. Kenny would never hurt Clem the way you are stupidly thinking, he cared more about Clem than anyone else in the group. Everything he did, regardless if it was right or wrong, smart, stupid, he did for her and AJ. Do you really think Jane would beg Edith to let the kids stay at Wellington? With Jane it would be all of them staying or nothing because that’s how she is.
Like it or not, Kenny was the last link Clem had to anyone since Lee died or Kat and Duck, Christa, people she really cared about. She knew Jane for a few days, the cabin group over a week or so i think? Kenny she had known for a very long time. It’s only realistic that she would care about him more. I am pretty sure if it were possible to delve inside her mind, you’d discover that the reason she would want to stay with Kenny is for the reason i just said, not due to SS which is utter bullshit and another way of you haters trying to point out faults.
you can bet Lee would have seen the same thing if he lived in season 2.
And Lee would have been the one to keep Kenny on track, pretty sure he would talk sense into him. Lee knows Kenny would never harm Clem.
Now if you want to go and on arguing then be my guest.
If someone, generally a younger, more impressionable person, is being abused by an authoritative figure, that person may sometimes get used … moreto that abuse to the point that he/she feels affinity for the abuser. Clem and Kenny aren't equals. He's old enough to be her father and adults who witness his behavior can see that he isn't good for Clem and that she may be too young to decide (Perhaps because of SS) for herself that she can stay away. Both Jane and Bonnie mention Clem thinking for herself. Kenny himself said it was the right choice shooting him. There's a reason everyone wanted to get away from him and you can bet Lee would have seen the same thing if he lived in season 2.
I honestly had to look that up cause that one time I heard that term, it wasn't used in that way.
And I can still say that that's not what I did there. Take your faux-political labels elsewhere, where they just might belong, please.
If you decide to give relevance to the motivations of characters in a given scene, I think the least you can do is have the same flexibility with all characters involved.
I guess.
I don't know if this is some sort of weird/confusing double-standard thing going on here, but all I can do is point out that Jane only put that out there cause Luke seemed like he needed it or something.
And considering the most in-character assumption to be made about what was going on with her and Troy, that just seemed like something she had no issue with doing.
Sidenote, don't you think that if we were playing as Jane, the most reasonable choice would be to leave Sarah in the trailer to ensure that Clementine and Luke would survive?
Why would I be playing as Jane, though?
Anyway, if I was controlling Jane, I'd be doubly motivated to try and help Sarah. If not for Jane herself, then for the other two.
I see @DabigRG explaning that it's understandable Luke "caved in" to having sex with Jane because of the dire emotional state he was in. And… more it's possible.
But you're overlooking the fact that Jane herself had been in a position of having to advocate to leave a suicidal child to die, so Jane herself and two other people—including a second kid—would survive. And that this evidently triggered legitimate emotional disturbance due to how similar it was to the death of her own sister.
If you decide to give relevance to the motivations of characters in a given scene, I think the least you can do is have the same flexibility with all characters involved.
Sidenote, don't you think that if we were playing as Jane, the most reasonable choice would be to leave Sarah in the trailer to ensure that Clementine and Luke would survive?
you realize that would have changed nothing, they still would have went up to the deck, and it would collapse and Sarah would die. Jane is n… moreot responsible for her death.
Uh, yes it would've. Luke would've gotten everyone moving faster, there'd be more time to prepare for the Observation Deck Defense, which would mean the deck may not have collapsed over the mistake that caused it and Sarah(and Jane, for that matter) probably wouldn't even be in a position where they'd be too far out to get to safety in time in the event it still does.
The Butterfly Effect is a powerful thing.
Oh by the way, I didn't see anyone else leap down to help Sarah.
Can't have anyone besides Jane get any big action/cool or sympathizing moments, can we?
Carver beat him up/possibly tortured him to make them give up the first radio. He mentions having his ribs hurt, and when you see him during Kenny's beatdown scene, he's bloody and bruised, has blood coming out of his mouth, he's lying on the ground, and Carlos is checking on him.
Also, Luke's bloody/bruised face texture is called 'luke_headTortured' in the files, so there's that too.
All in all, it's implied that Carver kicked the shit out of him at the very least.
I copied this definition from Wikipedia. "Stockholm syndrome has also come to describe the reactions of some abuse victims beyond the context of kidnappings or hostage-taking. Actions and attitudes similar to those suffering from Stockholm Syndrome have also been found in victims of sexual abuse, human trafficking, discrimination, terror, and political oppression." I never meant that Kenny kidnapped Clem. If I came across that way, I apologize. My only point is that Kenny was emotionally abusive to Clem several times. It's different from Rebecca's snideness.
Emotionally abusive to her how? Because apart from that one time he yelled at her, I can't even think of one other instance that I would call abuse. So you don't consider Rebecca telling Clementine not to get comfortable and that she would be gone soon to be emotional abuse? Or what about all the stuff Jane said to her about leaving Sarah behind and letting Clementine think that a baby she cared about was dead?
In a zombie apocalypse, you're not going to get along swimmingly with everyone. You're likely gonna have differences of opinion, disagreements which might even get heated. This isn't the same thing as abuse. What Carver did to Sarah and his people would be real abuse, both physical and emotional.
I copied this definition from Wikipedia. "Stockholm syndrome has also come to describe the reactions of some abuse victims beyond the contex… moret of kidnappings or hostage-taking. Actions and attitudes similar to those suffering from Stockholm Syndrome have also been found in victims of sexual abuse, human trafficking, discrimination, terror, and political oppression." I never meant that Kenny kidnapped Clem. If I came across that way, I apologize. My only point is that Kenny was emotionally abusive to Clem several times. It's different from Rebecca's snideness.
Comments
And was she able to save sarah? No. So she was right. It was a risk to herself, and she barely knows Sarah anyway.
What's Luke's excuse?
Yes.
Did you even read a single thing I said?
Kind of does isn’t actually asking her. And as the game has Clem seemingly object, well that should tell her that Clem didn’t want to leave her friend so the argument i will always say is that Jane should not have done what she did to force Clem’s hand to the decision that Jane wanted.
I disagree that something needed to be done but of course you knew that though, I think making someone even more angry whether or not it “fixes him” as you say still is not right or needed at all because as i have said, she put 3 lives in danger needlessly and what’s more Jane can’t be trusted after that. Kenny was no saint but he never ever lied about anything to anyone or staged a scene to prove a point that didn’t need to be made for the reason I said above.
I know you don’t give a crap at what i am about to say next and i bet you will almost certainly counter argue this but for one second maybe look at it from this view:
Imagine you were finally living a peaceful life with your new girlfriend at a ski lodge then a bunch of guys turn up on the run from a psychopath who eventually takes you and your girlfriend hostage, force you to do hard labour, you get your eye bashed in, you then lose your girlfriend, grieve again as the memories of losing your family haunt you once more, then have the added stress of being out on the road trying to survive again, later having to help deliver a baby, the baby’s mother dies who you seemingly cared for, then you have to care for that baby and try everything you can to keep the baby alive, you get ambushed and threatened to be robbed and killed by people and finally more stress when it comes to dealing with other members of the group who hate you for the way you have been acting all angry and frustrated about everything?
I don’t care what anyone says but after going through ALL that i’d say his outbursts and frustration is very normal, realistic and understandable unlike the other cardboard cutout characters who act like they just came out of a pub after drinking a nice cold pint on a sunny day. To think also how Bonnie and Mike kiss Arvo’s ass because they feel sorry for him, lol so laughable and unrealistic the fact that they would even trust him or care after what he and his pals did in trying to kill all of them moments before (and just because he didn’t take part fully in the gun fight doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have), he was after all busy with trying to save his sister.
Isn’t it? Because that is the reason Jane did what she did, to make a stupid point to show Clem how even more angry he can get. Kenny is like a beast who can be tamed by the right person and Jane is not that person. The argument above is about how nothing bad would have happened if she hadn’t done what she did.
And yet going back to Howe’s was exactly the same outcome, a 9 day trip with 1 day of formula with below 0 temperatures with nothing but a blanket. Both were bad plans. Now you’ll say “but Howe’s wasn’t suicidal”, accept it was just as much so. Why? Because they had already travelled hours north, turning back they would have ran out of petrol/gas with uncertainty they’d find more, even if they had, there is still risk of the herd being there outside Howe’s or nearby, if not that then perhaps some of Carver’s people had lived and would shoot them on sight? Jane also said ”i think Bonnie said there was baby formula” so she herself wasn’t sure for definite they would find it for the baby, and who knows if any other food remained? Turns out Wellington was found so the plan wasn’t suicidal in the end, and neither was Howe’s as both outcomes turned out ok for different reasons. But at the time neither plan was great due to the unknown.
The thing about all this is simply that the 9 day trip bollocks was awful AWFUL writing as we all agreed how insane that was in terms of how the baby could have survived in that time period.
No one was stopping Jane from fucking off. I already said that she didn’t officially ask what Clem wanted. She had 2 choices, to either accept what was happening or leave on her own. In the long term? Jane would end up going on her own anyway because after they found Wellington her and Kenny would be refused entry if Clementine and AJ were the only ones allowed to stay so no it wouldn’t be all about what Kenny wanted or following his command because Jane would leave.
But as i have said, no one was stopping her from leaving if she didn’t like it and she shouldn’t have forced Clementine even if it was a bad decision.
I certainly wouldn’t use an innocent baby as a way of baiting someone to do something. Sick and disturbing. So no, if i cared about the girl, i would have asked her what she wanted and respected her decision if she wanted to stay with him and I would leave if I thought the idea was bad. Even if it turned out to be the wrong call by Clem, that wasn’t for Jane to decide what was best for her. Forcing a decision on Clem to get what she wanted her to do, just because she wanted another little sister so she wasn’t going to be alone again.
You’re right and i do agree that he obviously realised it afterwards, it’s hinted as much when he says to Clem “i don’t trust myself to keep you safe, not anymore”. However, there definitely was a better way than what Jane horribly did. Hell, maybe even being nice to him might have calmed him down? It probably wouldn’t have because he didn’t like or trust Jane anyway but that was one possibility. Another would be to carry out her fucked up plan but mid way through the fight (the part where Kenny was backing off as she had the knife aimed at him thus gaining the upper hand) she could have said “oh by the way, the baby is alive yin the car over there, Clem go and get him. I just had to prove you were dangerous to Clem”. That way no one would have died either, he’d realised how it was.
If you can think of another way that she could have made him realise without using the baby as a tool or putting everyone’s life in danger like she did then great, i’m all ears. My biggest issue is the way she used the baby. It has always bothered me.
Ugh, spent all evening typing this. On my phone too! Nightmare. Hopefully we can just end it here and agree to disagree.
Think what you like but you’re wrong as far as i’m concerned and your view of Kenny is one dimensional it seems.
Yes, Luke was very naive and he was seduced i guess you could say. He should have been keeping an eye out for walkers. Him and Jane put the group in danger because of their antics. That’s a fact.
Thanks, IWL.
That's what I was saying, IWL. Dan's suggestions for alternatives for Jane regarding how to approach Kenny just don't work. She couldn't talk to him. She couldn't leave with Clem. So she either had to live with Kenny or show Clem what he could do.
Uh, yes it would've. Luke would've gotten everyone moving faster, there'd be more time to prepare for the Observation Deck Defense, which would mean the deck may not have collapsed over the mistake that caused it and Sarah(and Jane, for that matter) probably wouldn't even be in a position where they'd be too far out to get to safety in time in the event it still does.
The Butterfly Effect is a powerful thing.
Can't have anyone besides Jane get any big action/cool or sympathizing moments, can we?
A gun she had ever since they left Howe's, mind you.
To be fair, most of those are things she likely would've done away. In fact, she essentially led the charge there.
That last one is...well, you already said.
You know, I realize it's really friggin easy to say, but it's true--any character could've done most of that if given the chance. Mike in particular was advocating for that last one, primarily.
Correction: All that is overshadowed by Jane's general coldblooded approach to things and actually causing more problems in the long-run.
Even when it remotely involves personal things. Especially when it involves personal things.
She sure as hell wasn't doing anything to help the situation. And was actually making things worse, to be blunt.
Well, let's be honest here--who else has to gain from the writing decision to have Sarah not move even when you're clearly able to convince her under not too specific conditions? Or from throwing away Sarah in general?
I'll give you hint: It's not actually Molly.
Even though she was stuck under a pile of rubble that Jane couldn't lift past the midriff in the second occasion and was clearly not able to move forward despite visible trying to.
Well, logically speaking, why would he have been scouting through the woods when everyone else is in a relatively open space outside of the woods and his presence there could actually just end up further drawing the herd in behind him on his way to warn the group?
Considering she's the one who even makes her death a distinct result and/or makes it happen in both instances, you really shouldn't be surprised.
Eh, fair enough.
Well, in context, he was reeling from string of things going wrong and his group members being killed despite his efforts to avoid those things.
In particular, he'd
So in short, yeah, Jane came at him when he was vulnerable and would gladly take the chance to focus on something else besides survival for once.
I think that's kind of a point.
Not being in an opportune position(or physical condition) to go down and uncover her.
Of course you’d say that because after all it’s Kenny and you see everything a fan like me says of him is wrong. This wasn’t just about Kenny, it was more about Clementine. She did what she did “for” Clem she claims and yet i am saying there had to be another way than staging a sick, dangerous stunt to prove that point. And i feel you’re wrong for saying my suggestions don’t work. It’s Clem she should have talked to and maybe Clem could have got through to him but ONLY if she had wanted to leave with Jane which she didn’t seem to want to.
You are only assuming that she couldn’t talk to him though. As i said, during the fight around the time Kenny was backing off, if she had actually confessed and told them that the baby was fine and waited for Clem to get the baby, that would have definitely calmed him down and no one would have died. I mean jeez, Kenny himself says “at any point she could have stopped what was happening by saying he was fine, she wanted a fight”, and it’s true. Every word of it.
So you’re just assuming he can’t be talked to basically. The game should have given us the choice of whether we leave or stay with Kenny and then none of this would even need to be discussed.
Yes and like i said for i think the 3rd or 4th time now, no one was stopping Jane from
going by herself. Clem seemed to want to stay and she should have accepted and respected that decision regardless of how she felt instead of dangerously forcing her into leaving him because she selfishly wanted Clem for herself.
The thing that bothers me most is how you guys seem to think what Jane did was justified just because she proved her point yet you don’t seem to care about the consequences of those actions or what affect that could have had on the baby, Clementine or even Kenny making him even more unstable but because it’s “Kenny” he deserves it in your eyes right?
There was no other way, Dan. Everyone admits it was a dumb idea, but she already tried everything else. Everyone could see Kenny was dangerous (Bonnie, Mike, Luke, Jane) so Jane didn't want Clem around him. This wasn't about selfishness. She could have gone along with Kenny, but would that have helped anything? You're forced to do everything he wants and just bite your tongue and comply.
Kenny only posed a threat if they themselves were a threat to him or those he cared about (Clem, AJ). The worst Kenny ever got with the group was shouting and being aggressive. Arvo was a different story as he and his dickhead pals tried to rob and kill Kenny and the whole group moments before and you wonder why Kenny treated Arvo the way he did?? Seriously, he was the only sensible one keeping his guard up, even if Arvo was tied up, who knows if he had managed to get free and become a threat. Mike and Bonnie were complete idiots to trust him and if you can’t see that because of your hate for Kenny then there is no point discussing it further.
One again, that was not Jane’s call to make. You don’t force someone into a decision without asking them first.
It was selfish. Jesus Christ! So you don’t think it was selfish putting a helpless baby in a freezing car risking its life? Or dont you count the baby as a human being because it can’t talk yet??
You’ve basically ignored what i said above so once again i will paste it here for you to acknowledge:
This wasn’t just about Kenny, it was more about Clementine. She did what she did “for” Clem she claims and yet i am saying there had to be another way than staging a sick, dangerous stunt to prove that point. And i feel you’re wrong for saying my suggestions don’t work. It’s Clem she should have talked to and maybe Clem could have got through to him but ONLY if she had wanted to leave with Jane which she didn’t seem to want to.
You are only assuming that she couldn’t talk to him though. As i said, during the fight around the time Kenny was backing off, if she had actually confessed and told them that the baby was fine and waited for Clem to get the baby, that would have definitely calmed him down and no one would have died. I mean jeez, Kenny himself says “at any point she could have stopped what was happening by saying he was fine, she wanted a fight”, and it’s true. Every word of it.
Clem seemed to want to stay with Kenny and Jane should have accepted and respected that decision regardless of how she felt instead of dangerously forcing her into leaving him because she selfishly wanted Clem for herself (which she did).
And finally I believe I posted this to IronWoodLover, if Jane had gone along with Kenny she wouldn’t have had to do what he wants. Why? Because they would have found Wellington, her and Kenny would be refused entry and Clem and AJ would most likely stay there which means Jane would then be free to go off on her own anyway and wouldn’t have to stick around.
Quick question? What makes Jane’s opinions more valid than Kenny’s? I am not saying Kenny’s was more important because they weren’t but you keep on saying Jane or anyone shouldn’t do what Kenny says but why should Kenny do what anyone else says either? Who is right here? Answer is no one is. Which is why all along i have said that Clem should have been consulted on what she wanted to do.
A lot of people thought Kenny was dangerous including himself when Clem shoots him. I think it's undeniable that Kenny is wrong. When did Kenny back off during the fight? Clem never said she wanted to stay with Kenny and even so, Jane could see that Kenny was a dangerous influence on her, not unlike Stockholm Syndrome.
Well it's not like Kenny kidnapped her or was forcing her to be with him in any way. Clementine is mature and capable enough to make the decision of who she wants to be with herself. It wasn't really a good move for Jane to hide the baby in my opinion and I like Jane. Having said that though, even as a big Kenny fan, part of me appreciates the fact that she had the guts to fight him and didn't just resort to running away from him or talking shit (mostly behind his back) like the other group members.
Of course Kenny was wrong trying/succeeding in killing her but so is Jane for what she did in causing the fight in the first place and don’t forget that she tried to kill him too so if you don’t think she is wrong in any way then i’m sorry but you’re an idiot. I’ve already said (which you still ignored) that Kenny was only dangerous when someone threatened him or those he cares about. You make it sound like he was dangerous all the time. I completely disagree with that. Being angry or verbally insulting someone doesn’t make them dangerous.
Kenny and Jane were both wrong and you need to at least accept that.
Watch it again. After Jane slashes him he backs off and walks outside of the rest stop. In fact Jane CHARGED towards him with the knife when she didn’t need to because he was backing off. So tell me why she didn’t confess her plan there and then? “AJ is safe in that car over there Clem, go and get him. I wanted you to seen how Kenny was”. Tell me why she didn’t admit it then? Because she wanted a fight, that’s why, she wanted to probably kill him at that point too and she did try as well.
Which brings me to the question as to why no one asked her what she wanted to do? That’s the writing team’s fault. However we can strongly assume that Clem did want to stay because:
That is my view anyway. Couldn’t care less if you disagree though. And what are you saying about Stockholm Syndrome? Explain what that has to do with anything here?
Exactly
Nice mansplaining there...of course it is the woman's fault.
Wrong...Kenny was a danger to anyone who did not agree with him....he was willing to let Lee die if he did not agree to murder...he talked shit constantly about any idea that did not come out of his mouth. The man was a monster. Hell he is so broken he can only function if there are some people around he can try and impose his will. Otherwise he is unable to function at all...Sarita found him on his last legs and saved him...this of course makes me feel better about those who stayed at Wellington or just shot his ass....because I am sure with his inability to function outside of groups he died in the woods being eaten by critters and finally being shat out and becoming useful as nutrients for the forest.
If i stated a good thing Kenny says or does, which is a genuine positive,for example, the way he put himself in harms way to save Christa, that is a positive point but someone like you would find a negative in that. See what i mean? I know your view is different but when it’s something like that, how can something like that seriously be negative?
That was what i was trying to say
I would not..I would say that saving Christa was good...I would point out that giving Lee a back smack is what led to the walkie falling down there...and Lee and Kenny not wanting to go down and fetch it. But that is not a disturbed thing..it was an accident.
I see @DabigRG explaning that it's understandable Luke "caved in" to having sex with Jane because of the dire emotional state he was in. And it's possible.
But you're overlooking the fact that Jane herself had been in a position of having to advocate to leave a suicidal child to die, so Jane herself and two other people—including a second kid—would survive. And that this evidently triggered legitimate emotional disturbance due to how similar it was to the death of her own sister.
If you decide to give relevance to the motivations of characters in a given scene, I think the least you can do is have the same flexibility with all characters involved.
Sidenote, don't you think that if we were playing as Jane, the most reasonable choice would be to leave Sarah in the trailer to ensure that Clementine and Luke would survive?
Uh, yeah, let's please try to get back on topic instead of derailing the thread with personal arguments, please and thanks.
If someone, generally a younger, more impressionable person, is being abused by an authoritative figure, that person may sometimes get used to that abuse to the point that he/she feels affinity for the abuser. Clem and Kenny aren't equals. He's old enough to be her father and adults who witness his behavior can see that he isn't good for Clem and that she may be too young to decide (Perhaps because of SS) for herself that she can stay away. Both Jane and Bonnie mention Clem thinking for herself. Kenny himself said it was the right choice shooting him. There's a reason everyone wanted to get away from him and you can bet Lee would have seen the same thing if he lived in season 2.
I wouldn't say Kenny did abuse her though. He got angry at her once and yelled at her and that's about it for me. That doesn't really count as abuse for me. If so, then did Rebecca abuse Clementine as well when they first met? Simply getting angry at someone... Nah I can't really call that abuse. What Carver did to Sarah, making Carlos slap her. Stuff like that is what I would what i'd call real abuse.
This Stockholm Syndrome thing you're talking about doesn't exist... no one is kidnapping her or forcing her to be with them. Clementine absolutely is old enough to make the decision on her own. The stuff she's seen and done, her maturity, her intelligence, her fantastic people skills that goes well beyond her years. She is definitely capable of making the decision on her own.
I speak to Dan outside of the forums and seeing as he can’t respond on his account till Saturday, here is his response -/
Since when was Clementine kidnapped? Do you even know what Stockholm Syndrome actually is? You’ve used the term wrongly there. And Clem is not too young to decide at all. She grew up faster than most in the apocalypse, all the adults look to her for everything in the game, Kenny mentions he’s seen her take care of herself better than 3 adults put together, which is true.
I have been over this time and time again and you have basically just ignored it every time. The “adults” can all gang up and think what they like, it’s still not their decision to make. Kenny was only ever a threat to people who either threatened him or those he cares about (Clem and AJ) and you know that. You can try all you want to change my mind but it won’t happen and i know I’m wasting my time speaking to you too. Kenny would never hurt Clem the way you are stupidly thinking, he cared more about Clem than anyone else in the group. Everything he did, regardless if it was right or wrong, smart, stupid, he did for her and AJ. Do you really think Jane would beg Edith to let the kids stay at Wellington? With Jane it would be all of them staying or nothing because that’s how she is.
Like it or not, Kenny was the last link Clem had to anyone since Lee died or Kat and Duck, Christa, people she really cared about. She knew Jane for a few days, the cabin group over a week or so i think? Kenny she had known for a very long time. It’s only realistic that she would care about him more. I am pretty sure if it were possible to delve inside her mind, you’d discover that the reason she would want to stay with Kenny is for the reason i just said, not due to SS which is utter bullshit and another way of you haters trying to point out faults.
And Lee would have been the one to keep Kenny on track, pretty sure he would talk sense into him. Lee knows Kenny would never harm Clem.
Now if you want to go and on arguing then be my guest.
I honestly had to look that up cause that one time I heard that term, it wasn't used in that way.
And I can still say that that's not what I did there. Take your faux-political labels elsewhere, where they just might belong, please.
...Wait, this is a reply?
I guess.
I don't know if this is some sort of weird/confusing double-standard thing going on here, but all I can do is point out that Jane only put that out there cause Luke seemed like he needed it or something.
And considering the most in-character assumption to be made about what was going on with her and Troy, that just seemed like something she had no issue with doing.
Why would I be playing as Jane, though?
Anyway, if I was controlling Jane, I'd be doubly motivated to try and help Sarah. If not for Jane herself, then for the other two.
pffft, Luke was such a puss. What did Carver even do to him?
I so did not need you to chime in again!
Probably not.
Injure at least one of his ribs. And considering this is Carver we're talking about, he's lucky it was just that.
Oh. Well, I saw your post before Dickjoke's, so it just kinda happened that way.
Carver beat him up/possibly tortured him to make them give up the first radio. He mentions having his ribs hurt, and when you see him during Kenny's beatdown scene, he's bloody and bruised, has blood coming out of his mouth, he's lying on the ground, and Carlos is checking on him.
Also, Luke's bloody/bruised face texture is called 'luke_headTortured' in the files, so there's that too.
All in all, it's implied that Carver kicked the shit out of him at the very least.
I copied this definition from Wikipedia. "Stockholm syndrome has also come to describe the reactions of some abuse victims beyond the context of kidnappings or hostage-taking. Actions and attitudes similar to those suffering from Stockholm Syndrome have also been found in victims of sexual abuse, human trafficking, discrimination, terror, and political oppression." I never meant that Kenny kidnapped Clem. If I came across that way, I apologize. My only point is that Kenny was emotionally abusive to Clem several times. It's different from Rebecca's snideness.
Emotionally abusive to her how? Because apart from that one time he yelled at her, I can't even think of one other instance that I would call abuse. So you don't consider Rebecca telling Clementine not to get comfortable and that she would be gone soon to be emotional abuse? Or what about all the stuff Jane said to her about leaving Sarah behind and letting Clementine think that a baby she cared about was dead?
In a zombie apocalypse, you're not going to get along swimmingly with everyone. You're likely gonna have differences of opinion, disagreements which might even get heated. This isn't the same thing as abuse. What Carver did to Sarah and his people would be real abuse, both physical and emotional.