I copied this definition from Wikipedia. "Stockholm syndrome has also come to describe the reactions of some abuse victims beyond the contex… moret of kidnappings or hostage-taking. Actions and attitudes similar to those suffering from Stockholm Syndrome have also been found in victims of sexual abuse, human trafficking, discrimination, terror, and political oppression." I never meant that Kenny kidnapped Clem. If I came across that way, I apologize. My only point is that Kenny was emotionally abusive to Clem several times. It's different from Rebecca's snideness.
I don't know about Reggie. He actually tried to escape which is totally opposite of the Syndrome. Perhaps once his arm was cut off though he became broken.
I don't know about Reggie. He actually tried to escape which is totally opposite of the Syndrome. Perhaps once his arm was cut off though he became broken.
I think there was a theory going around that they chopped his arm off to teach him a lesson and the story of him getting bitten was a lie. The syndrome was supposed to be after the escape plan. I also doubt whether he had SS but it makes more sense for him than Clementine.
I don't know about Reggie. He actually tried to escape which is totally opposite of the Syndrome. Perhaps once his arm was cut off though he became broken.
So you don't consider Rebecca telling Clementine not to get comfortable and that she would be gone soon to be emotional abuse? Or what about all the stuff Jane said to her about leaving Sarah behind (...).
No. Instances of mere strangers being hostile to each other is not abuse or manipulation. Nor is Jane bluntly advising Clem on how to handle a difficult situation.
Bringing up Lee and saying stuff like "Lee would've wanted you to go to Wellington. All he did was to get you there!" however is outright emotional manipulation. Or you know, it's also pretty damn frustrating having your Clem tell Kenny, on multiple occasions, that she'd rather go to Howe's and watch him just keep driving North, quite literally ignoring her wishes. Perhaps if you (somehow) thought that Wellington excursion was a good idea and got your Clem to be vocal about it you felt like you were being heard by Kenny by the end of Season 2, but trust me, you weren't being heard. The decision had already been made in Kenny's mind before Clem even got the chance to open her mouth to say what she really wanted. That much is clear if you ever bother to look at scenarios where she disagrees with him and her will is quickly brushed aside by him.
Emotionally abusive to her how? Because apart from that one time he yelled at her, I can't even think of one other instance that I would cal… morel abuse. So you don't consider Rebecca telling Clementine not to get comfortable and that she would be gone soon to be emotional abuse? Or what about all the stuff Jane said to her about leaving Sarah behind and letting Clementine think that a baby she cared about was dead?
In a zombie apocalypse, you're not going to get along swimmingly with everyone. You're likely gonna have differences of opinion, disagreements which might even get heated. This isn't the same thing as abuse. What Carver did to Sarah and his people would be real abuse, both physical and emotional.
So you don't consider Rebecca telling Clementine not to get comfortable and that she would be gone soon to be emotional abuse? Or what about… more all the stuff Jane said to her about leaving Sarah behind (...).
No. Instances of mere strangers being hostile to each other is not abuse or manipulation. Nor is Jane bluntly advising Clem on how to handle a difficult situation.
Bringing up Lee and saying stuff like "Lee would've wanted you to go to Wellington. All he did was to get you there!" however is outright emotional manipulation. Or you know, it's also pretty damn frustrating having your Clem tell Kenny, on multiple occasions, that she'd rather go to Howe's and watch him just keep driving North, quite literally ignoring her wishes. Perhaps if you (somehow) thought that Wellington excursion was a good idea and got your Clem to be vocal about it you felt like you were being heard by Kenny by the end of Season 2, but trust me, you weren't… [view original content]
Non-sequitur time: Okay, I saw the words "Emotionally abusive" and "Sarah" at the same time and went "Wot da fooock?"
Which is also a fitting response to your confusing new profile pic.
I copied this definition from Wikipedia. "Stockholm syndrome has also come to describe the reactions of some abuse victims beyond the contex… moret of kidnappings or hostage-taking. Actions and attitudes similar to those suffering from Stockholm Syndrome have also been found in victims of sexual abuse, human trafficking, discrimination, terror, and political oppression." I never meant that Kenny kidnapped Clem. If I came across that way, I apologize. My only point is that Kenny was emotionally abusive to Clem several times. It's different from Rebecca's snideness.
Maybe Jane should have got behind the wheel of the car then before Kenny had the chance to drive north lol. Also looks like the writing team wanted Wellington more too.
Clementine was unconscious before clarifying her determinant wish to go south though, if the team behind the game had made the choice factor more realistic, perhaps a more fitting conclusion to people’s different choices would have gone ahead
So you don't consider Rebecca telling Clementine not to get comfortable and that she would be gone soon to be emotional abuse? Or what about… more all the stuff Jane said to her about leaving Sarah behind (...).
No. Instances of mere strangers being hostile to each other is not abuse or manipulation. Nor is Jane bluntly advising Clem on how to handle a difficult situation.
Bringing up Lee and saying stuff like "Lee would've wanted you to go to Wellington. All he did was to get you there!" however is outright emotional manipulation. Or you know, it's also pretty damn frustrating having your Clem tell Kenny, on multiple occasions, that she'd rather go to Howe's and watch him just keep driving North, quite literally ignoring her wishes. Perhaps if you (somehow) thought that Wellington excursion was a good idea and got your Clem to be vocal about it you felt like you were being heard by Kenny by the end of Season 2, but trust me, you weren't… [view original content]
Also looks like the writing team wanted Wellington more too
That's at least partially because Wellington was established in Episode 1 as the place Christa was taking Clementine and then Episode 2 has Kenny and Sarita just happen to be heading to the same place at the time. Then Episode 3 and as it turns out, up until near the end, Episode 4 has it go unmentioned.
The first two episodes were mostly written by Nick Breckon loosely based on outlines done by Sean Vanaman, then the next episodes had Pierre Shorette and then two other writers take over, respectively. And then No Going Back had Nick Breckon return to write most of the episode alongside Pierre Shorette.
So combine all that with signs that Jane and the Russians were created for the later pair of episodes and it's pretty easy to see that the finale was likely Nick Breckon salvaging what he could of the earlier planned direction(s) while working in Arvo and Jane.
Maybe Jane should have got behind the wheel of the car then before Kenny had the chance to drive north lol. Also looks like the writing team… more wanted Wellington more too.
Clementine was unconscious before clarifying her determinant wish to go south though, if the team behind the game had made the choice factor more realistic, perhaps a more fitting conclusion to people’s different choices would have gone ahead
Could be that Kenny was just giving his opinion on what he thought Lee would have wanted. That is not a clear instance of abuse. Neither is Kenny making the big decisions on what the next move was. He wasn't forcing anyone to follow him, wasn't kidnapping anyone.
And if you're counting that as then surely "don't get too comfortable" and "you'll be gone soon" isn't abuse or emotional manipulation. If Kenny said stuff like that to someone, a lot of people would without doubt be saying he was abusing them.
So you don't consider Rebecca telling Clementine not to get comfortable and that she would be gone soon to be emotional abuse? Or what about… more all the stuff Jane said to her about leaving Sarah behind (...).
No. Instances of mere strangers being hostile to each other is not abuse or manipulation. Nor is Jane bluntly advising Clem on how to handle a difficult situation.
Bringing up Lee and saying stuff like "Lee would've wanted you to go to Wellington. All he did was to get you there!" however is outright emotional manipulation. Or you know, it's also pretty damn frustrating having your Clem tell Kenny, on multiple occasions, that she'd rather go to Howe's and watch him just keep driving North, quite literally ignoring her wishes. Perhaps if you (somehow) thought that Wellington excursion was a good idea and got your Clem to be vocal about it you felt like you were being heard by Kenny by the end of Season 2, but trust me, you weren't… [view original content]
Also looks like the writing team wanted Wellington more too
That's at least partially because Wellington was established in Episode … more1 as the place Christa was taking Clementine and then Episode 2 has Kenny and Sarita just happen to be heading to the same place at the time. Then Episode 3 and as it turns out, up until near the end, Episode 4 has it go unmentioned.
The first two episodes were mostly written by Nick Breckon loosely based on outlines done by Sean Vanaman, then the next episodes had Pierre Shorette and then two other writers take over, respectively. And then No Going Back had Nick Breckon return to write most of the episode alongside Pierre Shorette.
So combine all that with signs that Jane and the Russians were created for the later pair of episodes and it's pretty easy to see that the finale was likely Nick Breckon salvaging what he could of the earlier planned direction(s) while working in Arvo and Jane.
I do agree with that. I don’t think that was abuse either. I think it’s very easy for those who do not like his character to jump to that conclusion when that is not always the case.
Could be that Kenny was just giving his opinion on what he thought Lee would have wanted. That is not a clear instance of abuse. Neither is … moreKenny making the big decisions on what the next move was. He wasn't forcing anyone to follow him, wasn't kidnapping anyone.
And if you're counting that as then surely "don't get too comfortable" and "you'll be gone soon" isn't abuse or emotional manipulation. If Kenny said stuff like that to someone, a lot of people would without doubt be saying he was abusing them.
Clementine was unconscious before clarifying her determinant wish to go south though, if the team behind the game had made the choice factor more realistic, perhaps a more fitting conclusion to people’s different choices would have gone ahead
Not true. You get to express not wanting to go to Howe's, before Clem gets shot, multiple times actually. While the group is conferring about where to go and inside the car when Kenny gives you the "a lot of people died to get us this far" speech.
Also looks like the writing team wanted Wellington more too.
Oh I quite agree. And don't get me wrong, I liked the idea of having this mysterious Wellington place as the end goal to S2. But taking their situation into account, making it there with a baby with nothing but a blanket to cover him and running low on formula was just insane. Not to mention the scarcity of supplies in the icy wastes, risking hypothermia, yadda yadda yadda.
Neither is Kenny making the big decisions on what the next move was. He wasn't forcing anyone to follow him, wasn't kidnapping anyone.
He drove my unconscious Clem across half a state after she had told him she wanted to go to Howe's. Oh, and continues doing so after she wakes up and repeats that sentiment. That's literally forcing the three of them, Jane, Clem and AJ, to follow him, and is as close to a kidnapping as it gets.
Could be that Kenny was just giving his opinion on what he thought Lee would have wanted. That is not a clear instance of abuse.
I suggest you watch that scene again. The fact that he mentions Lee and establishes that dead man's desire right before getting Clem to do his bidding... the way he organizes his speech... And note that it's not like they mention their past often. That was the one of the two times Kenny even brings him up on the whole Season.
The absolutely random and seemingly unwarranted callback to their past... Aligning the will of the people who belonged in that past with his own... Even antithesizing them with his opposition ("that's what people like Lee knew and what people like Jane...")... Making a callback to a recent happy moment together (their reunion)... And immediately asking for Clem to push that goal forward with the group? It's no coincidence. It forms a pattern. Kenny didn't just randomly decide to talk about the good old times. There were unusual amounts of honey in what he was spouting. He even mentions Rebecca... and Alvin! Fucking Alvin. It has no contextual sense other than giving Clem (and by extension, you, the player) several little emotional punches to dissuade her.
I actually believe that this was the writer's intent. There was even a slightly eerie/dark theme playing in the background. Quite unusual for a scene remembering the past and with all these callbacks to better times.
And if you're counting that as then surely "don't get too comfortable" and "you'll be gone soon" isn't abuse or emotional manipulation.
I'm not placing these quotes, you'll need to clarify what you mean. And anyways I wanted to say that abuse isn't this exact thing anyways. You ask some people and they'll count swearing or even the lightest name calling verbal abuse or something. Now emotional manipulation? That's less subjective. And I saw it clear as water on Kenny's speech.
Maybe Jane should have got behind the wheel of the car then before Kenny had the chance to drive north lol. Also looks like the writing team… more wanted Wellington more too.
Clementine was unconscious before clarifying her determinant wish to go south though, if the team behind the game had made the choice factor more realistic, perhaps a more fitting conclusion to people’s different choices would have gone ahead
You’re entitled to your opinion but that is not actually a fact what you say about him bringing up the past to emotionally abuse her whatever, just your assumption. He could have simply mentioned it because he happened to be thinking of Lee at that time, i mean why wouldn’t he? In fact, before the truck scene if Clem chooses to tell Kenny to give Jane a chance, he mentions how he didn’t know what to make of Lee when they first met. He did say to Clem before the truck scene too “remember the last time we sat on our asses Clem” referring to the whole motor inn scene. He could well have been thinking a lot about Lee and the past. “A lot of people died to get us this far” is true though and merely mentioning Lee following that is just a passing mention as far as i am concerned. I think your opinion is wrong but that’s ok because neither of us are right or wrong here so i hope you are not stating that as a fact
Clementine was unconscious before clarifying her determinant wish to go south though, if the team behind the game had made the choice factor… more more realistic, perhaps a more fitting conclusion to people’s different choices would have gone ahead
Not true. You get to express not wanting to go to Howe's, before Clem gets shot, multiple times actually. While the group is conferring about where to go and inside the car when Kenny gives you the "a lot of people died to get us this far" speech.
Also looks like the writing team wanted Wellington more too.
Oh I quite agree. And don't get me wrong, I liked the idea of having this mysterious Wellington place as the end goal to S2. But taking their situation into account, making it there with a baby with nothing but a blanket to cover him and running low on formula was just insane. Not to mention the scarcity of supplies in the icy wastes, risking hypothermia, yadda yadda yadda.
@w… [view original content]
You can also disagree with Kenny about what he says in the truck and he doesn’t insist on Clem persuading the group. If he had continued that would have been different
Clementine was unconscious before clarifying her determinant wish to go south though, if the team behind the game had made the choice factor… more more realistic, perhaps a more fitting conclusion to people’s different choices would have gone ahead
Not true. You get to express not wanting to go to Howe's, before Clem gets shot, multiple times actually. While the group is conferring about where to go and inside the car when Kenny gives you the "a lot of people died to get us this far" speech.
Also looks like the writing team wanted Wellington more too.
Oh I quite agree. And don't get me wrong, I liked the idea of having this mysterious Wellington place as the end goal to S2. But taking their situation into account, making it there with a baby with nothing but a blanket to cover him and running low on formula was just insane. Not to mention the scarcity of supplies in the icy wastes, risking hypothermia, yadda yadda yadda.
@w… [view original content]
It's actually something that tends to happen in series with multiple parts and/or season/installments. Even Season 1 swapped some writers a … morefew times.
Still, Season 2 clearly did it more with a more consecutively building story and suffered for it.
Personally? Or was he beaten by the guards that caught him? Why didn't they clear it up by having us walk in as he's slapping Luke around... it just feels like something is missing to me. They're so vague about it, that is makes it feel like lazy writing... again, just the way it feels to me.
Carver beat him up/possibly tortured him to make them give up the first radio. He mentions having his ribs hurt, and when you see him during… more Kenny's beatdown scene, he's bloody and bruised, has blood coming out of his mouth, he's lying on the ground, and Carlos is checking on him.
Also, Luke's bloody/bruised face texture is called 'luke_headTortured' in the files, so there's that too.
All in all, it's implied that Carver kicked the shit out of him at the very least.
Personally? Or was he beaten by the guards that caught him? Why didn't they clear it up by having us walk in as he's slapping Luke around...… more it just feels like something is missing to me. They're so vague about it, that is makes it feel like lazy writing... again, just the way it feels to me.
Personally? Or was he beaten by the guards that caught him? Why didn't they clear it up by having us walk in as he's slapping Luke around...… more it just feels like something is missing to me. They're so vague about it, that is makes it feel like lazy writing... again, just the way it feels to me.
I think Troy's assignment would've taken at least five minutes to get where they were before Carver/Tavia rang him up to bring them back. Since that was apparently Luke outside of the cell when Clementine, Kenny, and Mike were arguing over the walkie talkie, I assume he got caught after Bonnie let Clementine go and Carver personally confronted him upon the discover and had him dragged to the cell while alerting to Tavia and Troy to bring back the rest of the prisoners.
By the time she got them there, Carver was likely finishing up beating Luke, demanded they give him the radio(s) they have, and then started up his little rant as Troy was bring the three towards the cell. That should be about right, at least if Sarah and Carlos' reactions are any extra indication.
More or less.
As I stated, Season 2 was trying to go for a more direct, arc-based story compared to Season 1's initially more Monster of the Week setup, thus it's direction and consistency was much more important to have been upheld. And yet, as we can see in the final product, the shifting of priorities, more fickle focus on specific characters compared to others, and the significant lapse in a consistent head writer to make sure things stayed appropriately on track and building made the difference.
I'm still confused for some reason. I get the sense this scene got rewritted badly (and remember how the chapter picture showed sarah?)
What was with the "troy is coming for the rest of you" bit?
And how did Troy know where Clementine was?
I think Troy's assignment would've taken at least five minutes to get where they were before Carver/Tavia rang him up to bring them back. Si… morence that was apparently Luke outside of the cell when Clementine, Kenny, and Mike were arguing over the walkie talkie, I assume he got caught after Bonnie let Clementine go and Carver personally confronted him upon the discover and had him dragged to the cell while alerting to Tavia and Troy to bring back the rest of the prisoners.
By the time she got them there, Carver was likely finishing up beating Luke, demanded they give him the radio(s) they have, and then started up his little rant as Troy was bring the three towards the cell. That should be about right, at least if Sarah and Carlos' reactions are any extra indication.
I'm still confused for some reason. I get the sense this scene got rewritted badly (and remember how the chapter picture showed sarah?)
What was with the "troy is coming for the rest of you" bit?
And how did Troy know where Clementine was?
I get the sense this scene got rewritted badly
That's very likely what happened.
and remember how the chapter picture showed s… morearah?
Yeah, I remember. It was technically a different Chapter, but you bet I remember.
What was with the "troy is coming for the rest of you" bit?
The What bit?
And how did Troy know where Clementine was?
I always took it that he heard her walking around inside and calling for Luke when he walked by with Kenny and Mike.
Doesn't Tavia come in and take half the group and then say Troy is coming for the rest of them?
Oh yeah, before they argued over who takes the walkie talkie.
It's essentially the Inner Circle members having their own group of prisoners to be responsible for. We saw that the day before with Troy being in charge of checking up on Kenny and Mike doing construction, while Tavia escorts the others to their respective assignments, with Clementine occasionally being put under Bonnie's supervision because she presumably asked.
Doesn't Tavia come in and take half the group and then say Troy is coming for the rest of them?
I... just don't get it. Any of it. From the moment Clementine wakes up to Kenny being beaten up, I am confused as fuck.
Yeah, but clem is absent for like five minutes. In that time, Luke is caught and beaten, or caught then brought back to the pen and beaten and everyone else is suddenly back there?
Doesn't Tavia come in and take half the group and then say Troy is coming for the rest of them?
Oh yeah, before they argued over who… more takes the walkie talkie.
It's essentially the Inner Circle members having their own group of prisoners to be responsible for. We saw that the day before with Troy being in charge of checking up on Kenny and Mike doing construction, while Tavia escorts the others to their respective assignments, with Clementine occasionally being put under Bonnie's supervision because she presumably asked.
Like I said, Troy was likely the last called and Tavia's group were presumably inside the building anyway.
As for Luke, I suppose it could've been either/or, but I favor the latter since it makes more sense.
Yeah, but clem is absent for like five minutes. In that time, Luke is caught and beaten, or caught then brought back to the pen and beaten and everyone else is suddenly back there?
I'm so confused.
She ducked into that exact same store the other day, and Troy caught her. The next day, he can't find her (again), so he checks the same place he found her last time.
I mean hey, it said "Troy will remember that" the first time he caught her. The notification wasn't lying for once.
What was with the "troy is coming for the rest of you" bit?
I don't really see what the problem with that is. He comes over to get Kenny, Mike, and Clementine. You know, the people he was watching over the day before. The same people that managed to cause a breach and nearly got themselves killed, and forced Troy to have to sit down there and watch them. Kenny pretty much got all three of them on Troy's shit list by getting into that little fight with Mike. The fact that Troy specifically mentions what happened would suggest this to be the case: "And don't think today's gonna be like yesterday. No way, no shenanigans. This rooster's gonna be surveilling your ass every second of the day, you hear?"
Yeah, but clem is absent for like five minutes. In that time, Luke is caught and beaten, or caught then brought back to the pen and beaten and everyone else is suddenly back there?
I don't think this is that unbelievable, either. They're pretty much all working inside the building, and it probably takes a minute tops for them to be walked back to the pen. It happening over the course of about 5 minutes doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. It probably goes something like this:
Luke is captured, taken to the pen first -> Carver calls Tavia/Troy and tells them to bring everyone back -> Carver roughs up Luke in the meantime -> Tavia takes everyone else back -> Troy takes Kenny and Mike back, and notices Clementine is missing again -> Troy checks the comic store he saw her in before -> The three are taken back.
Not to mention that Clem Kenny and Mike are brought back right in the middle of it; Carver's monologuing, Luke's on the floor, and Carlos is checking him. It definitely wasn't going on for too long before they showed up.
I'm still confused for some reason. I get the sense this scene got rewritted badly (and remember how the chapter picture showed sarah?)
What was with the "troy is coming for the rest of you" bit?
And how did Troy know where Clementine was?
You know, it's funny how Troy was originally intended to just be that jackass prison guard with a dash of country stupidity and rapiness included, only for the final product to make him seem quite reasonable aside from the occasional insult and one or two threats.
And how did Troy know where Clementine was?
She ducked into that exact same store the other day, and Troy caught her. The next day, … morehe can't find her (again), so he checks the same place he found her last time.
I mean hey, it said "Troy will remember that" the first time he caught her. The notification wasn't lying for once.
What was with the "troy is coming for the rest of you" bit?
I don't really see what the problem with that is. He comes over to get Kenny, Mike, and Clementine. You know, the people he was watching over the day before. The same people that managed to cause a breach and nearly got themselves killed, and forced Troy to have to sit down there and watch them. Kenny pretty much got all three of them on Troy's shit list by getting into that little fight with Mike. The fact that Troy specifically mentions what happened would suggest this to be the case: "And don't think today's gonna be like yesterday. No… [view original content]
You know, it's funny how Troy was originally intended to just be that jackass prison guard with a dash of country stupidity and rapiness inc… moreluded, only for the final product to make him seem quite reasonable aside from the occasional insult and one or two threats.
And how did Troy know where Clementine was?
She ducked into that exact same store the other day, and Troy caught her. The next day, … morehe can't find her (again), so he checks the same place he found her last time.
I mean hey, it said "Troy will remember that" the first time he caught her. The notification wasn't lying for once.
What was with the "troy is coming for the rest of you" bit?
I don't really see what the problem with that is. He comes over to get Kenny, Mike, and Clementine. You know, the people he was watching over the day before. The same people that managed to cause a breach and nearly got themselves killed, and forced Troy to have to sit down there and watch them. Kenny pretty much got all three of them on Troy's shit list by getting into that little fight with Mike. The fact that Troy specifically mentions what happened would suggest this to be the case: "And don't think today's gonna be like yesterday. No… [view original content]
I argued you with before about his checking up on the girls in the beginning of in Harm's Way.
I used to think he sounded pretty creepy, but now it seems to be like he almost means it genuinely. Maybe they re-did the line when they changed his character
You know, it's funny how Troy was originally intended to just be that jackass prison guard with a dash of country stupidity and rapiness inc… moreluded, only for the final product to make him seem quite reasonable aside from the occasional insult and one or two threats.
I argued you with before about his checking up on the girls in the beginning of in Harm's Way.
Yeah, I remember. In fact, that's what I thought of when I saw you replied and the original post was what I had in mind.
I used to think he sounded pretty creepy, but now it seems to be like he almost means it genuinely.
I can sorta see bits of that interpretation in the delivery, but the character just doesn't really lend himself to that.
Part of me still likes to think it was probably a shitty attempt at a joke.
Maybe they re-did the line when they changed his character
Possibly so. Though Owen Thomas did note that his reaction to Jane shooting him was one of the only ad libs they left in, so it's still possibly one of the original recordings.
I argued you with before about his checking up on the girls in the beginning of in Harm's Way.
I used to think he sounded pretty creepy, b… moreut now it seems to be like he almost means it genuinely. Maybe they re-did the line when they changed his character
I argued you with before about his checking up on the girls in the beginning of in Harm's Way.
Yeah, I remember. In fact, that's wha… moret I thought of when I saw you replied and the original post was what I had in mind.
I used to think he sounded pretty creepy, but now it seems to be like he almost means it genuinely.
I can sorta see bits of that interpretation in the delivery, but the character just doesn't really lend himself to that.
Part of me still likes to think it was probably a shitty attempt at a joke.
Maybe they re-did the line when they changed his character
Possibly so. Though Owen Thomas did note that his reaction to Jane shooting him was one of the only ad libs they left in, so it's still possibly one of the original recordings.
I know, right? Weird.
Still, he probably could've made for a better, truer Heel-Face Turn arc than Bonnie or Jane did.
And that's without the trivia and changes throughout the in fluxxy development I would later learn about.
Comments
Kenny told Clem it was her fault for Sarita.
Remember when people were handwavingly saying Reggie just had Stockholm Syndrome?
Boy, I tell ya.
I don't know about Reggie. He actually tried to escape which is totally opposite of the Syndrome. Perhaps once his arm was cut off though he became broken.
That' pretty much what he says happened, though less broken and more accepting of his position.
I think there was a theory going around that they chopped his arm off to teach him a lesson and the story of him getting bitten was a lie. The syndrome was supposed to be after the escape plan. I also doubt whether he had SS but it makes more sense for him than Clementine.
No. Instances of mere strangers being hostile to each other is not abuse or manipulation. Nor is Jane bluntly advising Clem on how to handle a difficult situation.
Bringing up Lee and saying stuff like "Lee would've wanted you to go to Wellington. All he did was to get you there!" however is outright emotional manipulation. Or you know, it's also pretty damn frustrating having your Clem tell Kenny, on multiple occasions, that she'd rather go to Howe's and watch him just keep driving North, quite literally ignoring her wishes. Perhaps if you (somehow) thought that Wellington excursion was a good idea and got your Clem to be vocal about it you felt like you were being heard by Kenny by the end of Season 2, but trust me, you weren't being heard. The decision had already been made in Kenny's mind before Clem even got the chance to open her mouth to say what she really wanted. That much is clear if you ever bother to look at scenarios where she disagrees with him and her will is quickly brushed aside by him.
Non-sequitur time: Okay, I saw the words "Emotionally abusive" and "Sarah" at the same time and went "Wot da fooock?"
Which is also a fitting response to your confusing new profile pic.
grrr rawr
But, people will say, Kenny will do anything to keep Clem alive. That is what is truly important. I, of course, do not agree.
Maybe Jane should have got behind the wheel of the car then before Kenny had the chance to drive north lol. Also looks like the writing team wanted Wellington more too.
Clementine was unconscious before clarifying her determinant wish to go south though, if the team behind the game had made the choice factor more realistic, perhaps a more fitting conclusion to people’s different choices would have gone ahead
That's at least partially because Wellington was established in Episode 1 as the place Christa was taking Clementine and then Episode 2 has Kenny and Sarita just happen to be heading to the same place at the time. Then Episode 3 and as it turns out, up until near the end, Episode 4 has it go unmentioned.
The first two episodes were mostly written by Nick Breckon loosely based on outlines done by Sean Vanaman, then the next episodes had Pierre Shorette and then two other writers take over, respectively. And then No Going Back had Nick Breckon return to write most of the episode alongside Pierre Shorette.
So combine all that with signs that Jane and the Russians were created for the later pair of episodes and it's pretty easy to see that the finale was likely Nick Breckon salvaging what he could of the earlier planned direction(s) while working in Arvo and Jane.
Could be that Kenny was just giving his opinion on what he thought Lee would have wanted. That is not a clear instance of abuse. Neither is Kenny making the big decisions on what the next move was. He wasn't forcing anyone to follow him, wasn't kidnapping anyone.
And if you're counting that as then surely "don't get too comfortable" and "you'll be gone soon" isn't abuse or emotional manipulation. If Kenny said stuff like that to someone, a lot of people would without doubt be saying he was abusing them.
Ah i see, gosh why on earth did they change so many writers!? No wonder Season 2 was weaker than the first game
I do agree with that. I don’t think that was abuse either. I think it’s very easy for those who do not like his character to jump to that conclusion when that is not always the case.
Not true. You get to express not wanting to go to Howe's, before Clem gets shot, multiple times actually. While the group is conferring about where to go and inside the car when Kenny gives you the "a lot of people died to get us this far" speech.
Oh I quite agree. And don't get me wrong, I liked the idea of having this mysterious Wellington place as the end goal to S2. But taking their situation into account, making it there with a baby with nothing but a blanket to cover him and running low on formula was just insane. Not to mention the scarcity of supplies in the icy wastes, risking hypothermia, yadda yadda yadda.
@wdfan
He drove my unconscious Clem across half a state after she had told him she wanted to go to Howe's. Oh, and continues doing so after she wakes up and repeats that sentiment. That's literally forcing the three of them, Jane, Clem and AJ, to follow him, and is as close to a kidnapping as it gets.
I suggest you watch that scene again. The fact that he mentions Lee and establishes that dead man's desire right before getting Clem to do his bidding... the way he organizes his speech... And note that it's not like they mention their past often. That was the one of the two times Kenny even brings him up on the whole Season.
The absolutely random and seemingly unwarranted callback to their past... Aligning the will of the people who belonged in that past with his own... Even antithesizing them with his opposition ("that's what people like Lee knew and what people like Jane...")... Making a callback to a recent happy moment together (their reunion)... And immediately asking for Clem to push that goal forward with the group? It's no coincidence. It forms a pattern. Kenny didn't just randomly decide to talk about the good old times. There were unusual amounts of honey in what he was spouting. He even mentions Rebecca... and Alvin! Fucking Alvin. It has no contextual sense other than giving Clem (and by extension, you, the player) several little emotional punches to dissuade her.
I actually believe that this was the writer's intent. There was even a slightly eerie/dark theme playing in the background. Quite unusual for a scene remembering the past and with all these callbacks to better times.
I'm not placing these quotes, you'll need to clarify what you mean. And anyways I wanted to say that abuse isn't this exact thing anyways. You ask some people and they'll count swearing or even the lightest name calling verbal abuse or something. Now emotional manipulation? That's less subjective. And I saw it clear as water on Kenny's speech.
You’re entitled to your opinion but that is not actually a fact what you say about him bringing up the past to emotionally abuse her whatever, just your assumption. He could have simply mentioned it because he happened to be thinking of Lee at that time, i mean why wouldn’t he? In fact, before the truck scene if Clem chooses to tell Kenny to give Jane a chance, he mentions how he didn’t know what to make of Lee when they first met. He did say to Clem before the truck scene too “remember the last time we sat on our asses Clem” referring to the whole motor inn scene. He could well have been thinking a lot about Lee and the past. “A lot of people died to get us this far” is true though and merely mentioning Lee following that is just a passing mention as far as i am concerned. I think your opinion is wrong but that’s ok because neither of us are right or wrong here so i hope you are not stating that as a fact
You can also disagree with Kenny about what he says in the truck and he doesn’t insist on Clem persuading the group. If he had continued that would have been different
It's actually something that tends to happen in series with multiple parts and/or season/installments. Even Season 1 swapped some writers a few times.
Still, Season 2 clearly did it more with a more consecutively building story and suffered for it.
Season 1 they seemed to pretty much know how they wanted their story to go. With Season 2 writers it was all over the place
Personally? Or was he beaten by the guards that caught him? Why didn't they clear it up by having us walk in as he's slapping Luke around... it just feels like something is missing to me. They're so vague about it, that is makes it feel like lazy writing... again, just the way it feels to me.
Well, I never understood when Luke was caught, and when he'd have time to torture him.... I dunno, it felt really awkward to me.
Well Luke did say in episode 4 that Carver messed him up pretty good, back there.
We can only go by what Luke said which was “Carver did me in pretty bad”. Pretty sure he says something like that in episode 4
I think Troy's assignment would've taken at least five minutes to get where they were before Carver/Tavia rang him up to bring them back. Since that was apparently Luke outside of the cell when Clementine, Kenny, and Mike were arguing over the walkie talkie, I assume he got caught after Bonnie let Clementine go and Carver personally confronted him upon the discover and had him dragged to the cell while alerting to Tavia and Troy to bring back the rest of the prisoners.
By the time she got them there, Carver was likely finishing up beating Luke, demanded they give him the radio(s) they have, and then started up his little rant as Troy was bring the three towards the cell. That should be about right, at least if Sarah and Carlos' reactions are any extra indication.
More or less.
As I stated, Season 2 was trying to go for a more direct, arc-based story compared to Season 1's initially more Monster of the Week setup, thus it's direction and consistency was much more important to have been upheld. And yet, as we can see in the final product, the shifting of priorities, more fickle focus on specific characters compared to others, and the significant lapse in a consistent head writer to make sure things stayed appropriately on track and building made the difference.
I'm still confused for some reason. I get the sense this scene got rewritted badly (and remember how the chapter picture showed sarah?)
What was with the "troy is coming for the rest of you" bit?
And how did Troy know where Clementine was?
That's very likely what happened.
Yeah, I remember. It was technically a different Chapter, but you bet I remember.
The What bit?
I always took it that he heard her walking around inside and calling for Luke when he walked by with Kenny and Mike.
Doesn't Tavia come in and take half the group and then say Troy is coming for the rest of them?
I... just don't get it. Any of it. From the moment Clementine wakes up to Kenny being beaten up, I am confused as fuck.
Oh yeah, before they argued over who takes the walkie talkie.
It's essentially the Inner Circle members having their own group of prisoners to be responsible for. We saw that the day before with Troy being in charge of checking up on Kenny and Mike doing construction, while Tavia escorts the others to their respective assignments, with Clementine occasionally being put under Bonnie's supervision because she presumably asked.
Yeah, but clem is absent for like five minutes. In that time, Luke is caught and beaten, or caught then brought back to the pen and beaten and everyone else is suddenly back there?
I'm so confused.
Like I said, Troy was likely the last called and Tavia's group were presumably inside the building anyway.
As for Luke, I suppose it could've been either/or, but I favor the latter since it makes more sense.
She ducked into that exact same store the other day, and Troy caught her. The next day, he can't find her (again), so he checks the same place he found her last time.
I mean hey, it said "Troy will remember that" the first time he caught her. The notification wasn't lying for once.
I don't really see what the problem with that is. He comes over to get Kenny, Mike, and Clementine. You know, the people he was watching over the day before. The same people that managed to cause a breach and nearly got themselves killed, and forced Troy to have to sit down there and watch them. Kenny pretty much got all three of them on Troy's shit list by getting into that little fight with Mike. The fact that Troy specifically mentions what happened would suggest this to be the case: "And don't think today's gonna be like yesterday. No way, no shenanigans. This rooster's gonna be surveilling your ass every second of the day, you hear?"
I don't think this is that unbelievable, either. They're pretty much all working inside the building, and it probably takes a minute tops for them to be walked back to the pen. It happening over the course of about 5 minutes doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. It probably goes something like this:
Luke is captured, taken to the pen first -> Carver calls Tavia/Troy and tells them to bring everyone back -> Carver roughs up Luke in the meantime -> Tavia takes everyone else back -> Troy takes Kenny and Mike back, and notices Clementine is missing again -> Troy checks the comic store he saw her in before -> The three are taken back.
Not to mention that Clem Kenny and Mike are brought back right in the middle of it; Carver's monologuing, Luke's on the floor, and Carlos is checking him. It definitely wasn't going on for too long before they showed up.
You know, it's funny how Troy was originally intended to just be that jackass prison guard with a dash of country stupidity and rapiness included, only for the final product to make him seem quite reasonable aside from the occasional insult and one or two threats.
I wouldn't describe Troy as reasonable.
I know, but I couldn't think of another, more fitting word to use in the moment.
Except Troy saw Bonnie take Clementine.
So Troy has no way of knowing Clementine is somewhere she shouldn't be.
Explain that.
I argued you with before about his checking up on the girls in the beginning of in Harm's Way.
I used to think he sounded pretty creepy, but now it seems to be like he almost means it genuinely. Maybe they re-did the line when they changed his character
Yeah, I remember. In fact, that's what I thought of when I saw you replied and the original post was what I had in mind.
I can sorta see bits of that interpretation in the delivery, but the character just doesn't really lend himself to that.
Part of me still likes to think it was probably a shitty attempt at a joke.
Possibly so. Though Owen Thomas did note that his reaction to Jane shooting him was one of the only ad libs they left in, so it's still possibly one of the original recordings.
Troy should just be a throwaway bad guy, but I keep feeling like there's something interesting about him
I know, right? Weird.
Still, he probably could've made for a better, truer Heel-Face Turn arc than Bonnie or Jane did.
And that's without the trivia and changes throughout the in fluxxy development I would later learn about.