You can't compare KQ1 and SMI. KQ1 was made in 1984 and was the first adventure game EVER CREATED to have animated graphics in it where you control the character on screen. SMI was created in 1991 AFTER KQ1 raised the bar 7 years earlier for adventures by giving them animated graphics and characters. You can't compare two games because of their graphics when they have a 7 year gap between them. Of course SMI's looks better, but KQ1's was absolutely revolutionary for its time.
Ummm actually it was 1990, not 1991, and the monkey head screenshot is inappropriate there because it belongs to the 256 color VGA version, not 16 color EGA (that was the first game).
But just for the record, Sierra's quest line was a pioneer of its genre. It was the first company to release quests in 8-bit graphics, 16 bits, 256 bits, music, sound and, eventually - 3D effects. Sierra released King's Quest VII, the first 100% hand drawn animated quest in 1994. It was a breakthrough every time.
LA, on the other hand, always had funny games. There was no boring storyline where some king goes to save someone, and no hero died in the game. So humor and plot side it was better than Sierra's quests. Which evens out.
there was a switch for character-relative/camera-relative controls in Grim, while EMI only adopted character-relative
Objection!
EMI does have camera-relative controls, you can switch between both. I prefer character-relative when playing with a keyboard but have switched to camera-relative once I got a gamepad.
Grim's interface was easier to deal with as when you hit inventory, they didn't show you a circle of items (that can grow up to three sizes your screen depending on what you picked up) rotating like a coat rack. It was just previous-next pattern, which I found quite easier to navigate in.
EMI's was next-previous as well and I don't understand what you mean by "can grow up to three sizes your screen"; the screen always contained all items.
The only differences in usability between this and GF's were that you could see how far you are from a specific item (that's a pro) and that you could get confused over which direction to press (that's a con, but a small one as you'd realise your mistake after one item change and eventually would get used to it).
Objection!
EMI does have camera-relative controls, you can switch between both. I prefer character-relative when playing with a keyboard but have switched to camera-relative once I got a gamepad.
Was it the opposite... sustained, then.
EMI's was next-previous as well and I don't understand what you mean by "can grow up to three sizes your screen"; the screen always contained all items.
The only differences in usability between this and GF's were that you could see how far you are from a specific item (that's a pro) and that you could get confused over which direction to press (that's a con, but a small one as you'd realise your mistake after one item change and eventually would get used to it).
What I meant is when you picked up a big item all the others were becoming small and the circle was hu-uge. Plus I know that in Grim you could press numbers from 1 to 0 for the first ten picked items to get straight to them. I don't remember if it was the same in EMI, but I do remember going long "right-right-right-right-right-left" to get one.
I would sooner play through Escape than ANY KQ game. Except KQVI, (and *maybe* KQVII, I still have a soft spot for that one) because that one is actually good.
LA, on the other hand, always had funny games. There was no boring storyline where some king goes to save someone, and no hero died in the game. So humor and plot side it was better than Sierra's quests. Which evens out.
Also, in LA games you never hit a dead end because you hadn't picked up a vital object that appears only once on one screen, there were no pointless arbitrary deaths, and they didn't hide vital items in a bloody wrecked boat on a random island with no clue to its presence and no outward sign that it's even there... fffffffffffffff... Damn you Roberta Williams!
Also, Escape is not City of the Lost Children. To this day I can't figure out how in the name of god you're meant to know what to do in that game.
'cept for EMI, but that is a known bug when you hit Herman on the head to help him regain his memory.
Actually, going quite back, you COULD potentially die in the following LA quests:
- Maniac Mansion (when either of them crazies in the family catches you).
- Zak McKraken (when aliens catch you at the end)
- both Inidiana Jones (but you had to do something REALLY stupid, like fighting a sober 10 ft tall Nazi juggernaut)
- The Dig & Full Throttle (when you screw up both endings)
- Loom (when you piss off Cobb... just kidding, you didn't really die in Loom).
Still, what is this compared to like 20 Sierra games just WAITING for that time you touch a cobra or something to write you a "TOLD YA SO!!" diss like jerks... Hmpf! I always hated that.
Still, what is this compared to like 20 Sierra games just WAITING for that time you touch a cobra or something to write you a "TOLD YA SO!!" diss like jerks... Hmpf! I always hated that.
The WORST parts for me were the ones where you had to cross long, winding paths over a chasm, where clicking one pixel too far meant you fell to your death. Over and over and over again. I think that was a staple for the first five KQ games anyway. Plus you could die by falling down stairs in III and IV, because apparently Alexander and Rosella have bones made of candycane.
The WORST parts for me were the ones where you had to cross long, winding paths over a chasm, where clicking one pixel too far meant you fell to your death. Over and over and over again. I think that was a staple for the first five KQ games anyway. Plus you could die by falling down stairs in III and IV, because apparently Alexander and Rosella have bones made of candycane.
Oh, I know. There were so many ways to die in KQ you were actually wondering where to click on the screen to stay alive.
Remember that one in KQV when you get to the mountains, you can't go back anymore, and if you don't have a chunk of meat and a coat you can say yourself goodbye right off?
I liked some of them, though. Like Larry 5 and 6. You could die or screw up, but at least it was in somewhat funny and not just plain dumb ways (like telling a female dentist that you think she's hot while she does your teeth to die from dental machine evisceration ).
Remember that one in KQV when you get to the mountains, you can't go back anymore, and if you don't have a chunk of meat and a coat you can say yourself goodbye right off?
Well, if you have the custard pie instead of the meat you can eat that instead, but then you're boned when you meet the Yeti. But what's a KQ game without constant, CONSTANT reloading?
Well, if you have the custard pie instead of the meat you can eat that instead, but then you're boned when you meet the Yeti. But what's a KQ game without constant, CONSTANT reloading?
Nah, you died like next screen anyway, because of cold. Or was the pie also keeping you warm for that part?
'cept for EMI, but that is a known bug when you hit Herman on the head to help him regain his memory.
Actually, going quite back, you COULD potentially die in the following LA quests:
- Maniac Mansion (when either of them crazies in the family catches you).
- Zak McKraken (when aliens catch you at the end)
- both Inidiana Jones (but you had to do something REALLY stupid, like fighting a sober 10 ft tall Nazi juggernaut)
- The Dig & Full Throttle (when you screw up both endings)
- Loom (when you piss off Cobb... just kidding, you didn't really die in Loom).
Still, what is this compared to like 20 Sierra games just WAITING for that time you touch a cobra or something to write you a "TOLD YA SO!!" diss like jerks... Hmpf! I always hated that.
The worst Sierra death announcements come from King's Quest V.
"Dying for a drink Graham?"
"That last step was a doosy!"
You can die in Monkey Island 1 if you can't figure out what to do when your tied to the idol of many hands and you're underwater for 10 minutes. The verbs even change. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade had quite a few deaths in it (I lost track how many times I died in that damn Nazi castle and not just Biff the Nazi's health) If you forget to make that axe fall before you're tied up you pretty much have to guess and you have no way of know that your going to get caught and held there. At least in Fate they toned down the number of deaths. I don't mind dying in adventure games, that makes it challenging, just don't make it so challenging that if you can die for the most illogical reason.
The worst Sierra death announcements come from King's Quest V.
"Dying for a drink Graham?"
"That last step was a doosy!"
I'd say the worst ones came from KQVI: you could die just because you didn't save Kasima in time, but it was so painful at the same time you'd just hit restore even before they show you the diss.
You can die in Monkey Island 1 if you can't figure out what to do when your tied to the idol of many hands and you're underwater for 10 minutes. The verbs even change. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade had quite a few deaths in it (I lost track how many times I died in that damn Nazi castle and not just Biff the Nazi's health) If you forget to make that axe fall before you're tied up you pretty much have to guess and you have no way of know that your going to get caught and held there. At least in Fate they toned down the number of deaths. I don't mind dying in adventure games, that makes it challenging, just don't make it so challenging that if you can die for the most illogical reason.
Yeah, well, if you count ALL the times you lose (not necessarily die) in them then yes, but I was talking more about situations they don't put you back at the start of the puzzle, but merely at the start of the whole game if you didn't save it before (and I was one of those folks who don't usually save games just because I was too lazy to ).
What I liked in Sierra quests was the ambiguity of the ways you could pass a game (LA only did it once, in Fate, with three different ways to solve the same puzzles), and I was also a fan of having items that you can use in multiple situations (not just once and on the same thing every time). But dying in Sierra games just overpowered any will of playing their games.
I also remember playing Westwood's Kyrandia, and to be honest, you didn't die that much and that stupidly in there, which probably made a pretty good quest out of it.
I liked the death mechanisms in Legend games "Death Gate" and "Shannara" the best.
You could die relatively easily, but there was always an "undo" button to undo the last action. Except in one case (can't remember exactly) when by the time you actually died it was too late for "undo" to do anything.
I'd say the worst ones came from KQVI: you could die just because you didn't save Kasima in time, but it was so painful at the same time you'd just hit restore even before they show you the diss.
That one sucked, but so did it in KQ5 if you didn't save cedrick on the harpy island and then find out later you had to save him in order to avoid being hit by Mordack's wand. I made it a habit to make multiple save games in Sierra games.
I also remember playing Westwood's Kyrandia, and to be honest, you didn't die that much and that stupidly in there, which probably made a pretty good quest out of it.
Too bad they stopped at 3 thou.
Yeah, I liked Kyrandia, but some of the puzzles I never understood without a walkthrough, and I hated the mazes. I don't think it had too many illogical puzzles ( unless you save in the first one when you only have one berry and there isn't a fire bush in the next room)
Yeah, I liked Kyrandia, but some of the puzzles I never understood without a walkthrough, and I hated the mazes. I don't think it had too many illogical puzzles ( unless you save in the first one when you only have one berry and there isn't a fire bush in the next room)
Even if you did die, it was still worth something because you became a wisp at the end and could fly through any rooms thereafter.
You can't compare KQ1 and SMI. KQ1 was made in 1984 and was the first adventure game EVER CREATED to have animated graphics in it where you control the character on screen. SMI was created in 1991 AFTER KQ1 raised the bar 7 years earlier for adventures by giving them animated graphics and characters. You can't compare two games because of their graphics when they have a 7 year gap between them. Of course SMI's looks better, but KQ1's was absolutely revolutionary for its time.
Ummm actually it was 1990, not 1991, and the monkey head screenshot is inappropriate there because it belongs to the 256 color VGA version, not 16 color EGA (that was the first game).
I don't think you guys understand my meaning. Maybe it was a bad example, but OP (Hee Ho Ho) was saying that the first 3 MI games graphics were bad compared to EMI. I was trying to say that you can't compare 2D to 3D, they're in a seperate category of graphics and therefore are set to a different standard. In that way, one can say SMI (EGA or VGA) looks better than KQ1, in the same way that Tales looks better than EMI.
Okay, for the record, KQ is my favorite Sierra series... so don't hate for my comparing EMI to KQ1. I was only trying to say that EMI's graphics haven't aged well. Come on, even if you like KQ1, you have to say that despite how groundbreaking they were for their day, the graphics still don't hold a candle to later 2D adventure games.
...in retrospect, maybe I should have said that comparing SMI's graphics to EMI's is akin to comparing Super Mario Bros.' graphics to MegaMan64's, and said that you can only properly compare MegaMan64 to something else 3D like... well, any 3D Zelda or Mario game, and Super Mario Bros to another 2D game. My whole point was he was comparing apples to oranges.
I don't think you guys understand my meaning. Maybe it was a bad example, but OP (Hee Ho Ho) was saying that the first 3 MI games graphics were bad compared to EMI. I was trying to say that you can't compare 2D to 3D, they're in a seperate category of graphics and therefore are set to a different standard. In that way, one can say SMI (EGA or VGA) looks better than KQ1, in the same way that Tales looks better than EMI.
Well, you're still comparing two different categories of graphics, even if you compare 16 bits to 8 bits. Both TMI and EMI were made with similar 3D, it's not something groundbreaking either - TTG just has better model-shaping artists than LA had at the time (that's why all their models were so uniform and stale). But it's the same graphics, same number of colors, shades, polygons, etc.
On the other hand, I'd have to say their Sam&Max in 3D is much of an improvement to the classic Sam&Max Hit the Road of 1994. It has a much more realistic look, all with the same ease of using their models. In that case, yes, I think I can say that the last 10-15 years were a progress to the overall graphics switch from 2D to 3D. But some games had as good 3D graphics as today's back in 2000 already, no matter how groundbreaking that was.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
You realise what polygons are, right? ToMI clearly has a lot more than EMI.
Also I disagree on 2000 3D looking anywhere decent. Compare NWN1 (UGLY!) with Baldur's Gate 2 (Pretty). Why? Because one is generic 3D while the other has beatifully handcrafted backpaintings as decor (a la Curse of Monkey Island). And that is timeless (IMO)...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
You realise what polygons are, right? ToMI clearly has a lot more than EMI.
Also I disagree on 2000 3D looking anywhere decent. Compare NWN1 (UGLY!) with Baldur's Gate 2 (Pretty). Why? Because one is generic 3D while the other has beatifully handcrafted backpaintings as decor (a la Curse of Monkey Island). And that is timeless (IMO)...
Ouch.
You read between the lines. I said time is not a factor, and it's the same polygons, not that there is more or less of them. Today's tri-dimensionality is better than early-to mid-1990s (basically used only in movies and cutscenes), but it's not more efficient than the one we had in 2000. Easier to animate - yes. More efficient - no.
Anyway, say what you will, but the first 3 MI games have timeless graphics and EMI's suck now. So, whether you agree with my explanation or not, Hee Ho Ho is still wrong in saying that EMI's graphics are better than SMI/MI2/CMI. Pick any other reason why, if you don't agree with my own.
I'm perfectly happy to replay the first 3 MI games and Tales, but I did find myself recently watching a 'Let's Play' of EMI on YouTube rather than replay it myself.
EDIT:
ahem.... anyway, "I have no idea what you just said about 'tri-dimensional thingamabobs' so I will just say..."
How appropriate, you fight like a cow.
Anyway, say what you will, but the first 3 MI games have timeless graphics and EMI's suck now. So, whether you agree with my explanation or not, Hee Ho Ho is still wrong in saying that EMI's graphics are better than SMI/MI2/CMI. Pick any other reason why, if you don't agree with my own.
Maybe graphics are an issue, but I wouldn't call the game an "epic fail" for the reasons I already mentioned. To me it seems that pseudo-3D in EMI was just a little something that tipped over the whole whining jar. There was a pretty childish plot with many inconsistencies, hard to cope with controls, not always working cutscenes, etc. etc. So, after playing masterpieces such as Curse, it's not a wonder you have the will to regurgitate all over when you compare it to EMI. But, taken apart from the other games, I still think it was an average game, playable on its own, and nevertheless still somehow popular (look at everyone who argues inside this thread - hey, they played it ).
Hmmm. Let's see. Horrible graphics (When it came out!), bad controls, poor and not so fun puzzles, a rather dull and not so humorous storyline..The only MI game I've only played once.
Hmmm. Although Secret of Monkey Island was my first MI-Game, Escape from Monkey Island is my Favourite after Le Chucks Revenge. I always wondered why so many fans hate it.
Is it just only the graphic-thing? Come on. Nearly every classic adventure fan says, that graphics are not really important in that Genre. And i saw Graphic Adventures with much more horrible Graphic than Escape from MI. Especially the mix of 3d and 2d is quite well. Could be much worse.
The Controls? Why? I mean okay, i prefer the old Point and Click Style, but the Escape controls were okay. They were not really complicated, worked quite well, Escape did not become any action adventure game like some people have been worried about, before the release. 3D Graphic, Keyboard_Controls? Who cares, it worked really well, it still felt like an old style Graphic Adventure, with short ways to walk and all that stuff.
But the most important thing about a game like this has othing to do with graphic or controls. It depends on the Storyline and the puzzles . And the Escape-Storyline was awesome, the puzzles were much better than for example in the Curse-Game.
What i loved in MI2: Better puzzles, more places to go, travelling between Islands and stuff.
I was a bit disappointed about Curse. Okay, for me it has the best graphicStyle of all MI-Games, but the puzzles were much to easy, there werent much places to go. And i was able to finish the game much to fast. And in the end i thought:"That was all?"
And this is why i like to compare "Escape" to Le Chuck Revenge. I spent much more hours with it, than with curse. There were much more places to go, the puzzles were much more difficult. There were more Islands, more Travelling, and the story was more complex than in Curse.
All this things made Escape a real Highlight in the MI-Series, in my opinion.
And i feel that a lot of people dont have real good arguments in complaining about "Escape". Feels more like they are complaining, because its stylish to hate "Escape".
Hmmm. Although Secret of Monkey Island was my first MI-Game, Escape from Monkey Island is my Favourite after Le Chucks Revenge. I always wondered why so many fans hate it.
Well, until I came on this forum, I didn't even know the game was hated. Well, I knew I didn't like it. Didn't know about anyone else.
I disliked the controls, that bugged with my computer. Not only did I have to use the arrows, like everyone, but it always moved by two. That is, if the options were
1
2
3
and I wanted to select 2, I had to go down twice. The first time it made me go from 1 to 3, and the second from 3 to 2. But if there was a 4th option? I couldn't select 2 or 4. It was incredibly frustrating.
Then the story felt short and the puzzle made no sense to me. Instead of a linear story it felt like a patchwork of little things that had nothing to do together. And as for the story being a good one, I can't even remember it so I'd say that no, it wasn't.
The graphics were only annoying insofar that they caused the switch from a good interface to a terrible one. Sure, they looked bad, and it's annoying to go from something that looks good to something that looks bad, especially when you know the stuff that looks bad probably took more work. But it would have been okay otherwise.
The Monkey Kombat required you to keep a paper with all combinations written, too. That was frustrating, and it took a while before people used the right combinations for you to learn them all.
Oh, and they reintroduced characters just for the sake of it, which I didn't like.
Graphics, interface, story, puzzles, Monkey Kombat.
It's the only game MI game I never finished, that's an indication all by itself. Glad I loaned it from the library (it still borrowed out games back in these days) instead of bought it...
I disliked the controls, that bugged with my computer.
Didnt have that problem.
Then the story felt short
Hmm. Felt the story was quite bigger than in MI 1 and Curse. It was more complex.
and the puzzle made no sense to me
What do you mean with "the puzzles made no sense to me." ?
I think there are always a few puzzles which are a bit stupid. Think of "Secret of Monkey Island" in Chapter 2, in the Kitchen. Doesn't make any sense. ^^
Instead of a linear story it felt like a patchwork of little things that had nothing to do together.
Thats what i mean, the story was a bit more complex. Everything made sense. But you must be able to follow the story. But i think this can't be to difficult in a MI-Game. I think you watch movies?
And as for the story being a good one, I can't even remember it so I'd say that no, it wasn't.
I you wish, and if you be nice i could tell you the whole story.
No, it was really well. It was some kind of political conspiracy thriller in the carribbean. There was an australian Business-Man named Ozzy Mandrill. He wanted to buy everything in the carribean, and cast out all the pirates, to change the carribean into a big touristic place. So he found Le Chuck wo stucked in the Ice-Block. He rescued him, and Le Chuck promised to help Ozzy with his plans, if Ozzy helps him to get Elaine.
Le Chuck became Gouverneur of Melee. Elaine Lost her House, and stuff like that. A real conspiracy-thing. ^^ Dramatic.
Best one of all the MI-Games.
The graphics were only annoying
They were good enough, for a year 2000 game. Monkey Island never was a High End Graphic thing, and early 3D Graphic was always a bit ugly. Did you ever saw Simon The Sorcerer 3D? Came out a few years after Escape and looked much more shitty.
The Monkey Kombat required you to keep a paper with all combinations written, too
In all MI-Games you need pen and Paper for a few puzzles. And Sword fight in Secret of Monkey Island takes time, too. Also the Sword fight/ Ship Fight thing in Curse. And i always think, please continue with chapter 3. ^^
Let's turn it around, why all the hate for CoMI? Seeing how that's my favorite MI, and EFMI is my least favorite MI, let's see what bad you have to say about it...
Just as I said. Curses puzzles are much too easy. I finished the game much too early, in only 3 days ore something. And i didnt play alot. There are not enough places to go. Not enough travelling.
But I also said, the graphic is the best one of all MI-Games, and i love the Soundtrack. Curse is beautifull. But a beatiful package is not everything you want from a game.
But i never said that i hate Curse. Never would say that. Love all MI-Games. But if i compare curse to Le Chucks Revenge ore EFMI, it is a bit disappointing in the aspects above.
In all MI-Games you need pen and Paper for a few puzzles.
I've never needed a pen and paper for any other Monkey Island game. What are you referring to?
The sword insults take time, but at least they're entertaining. Each one is a joke with a comeback. The Monkey Kombat is just positions, none fundementally any different from the previous one, so learning a new one doesn't bring you anything as a player, while learning a new insult brings some laughs.
Oh, and by "the puzzle didn't make sense", I meant that the puzzled seemed illogical for the sake of being complicated, and that once you found the solution, you didn't think "oh, how could I miss it" but "what the hell?". I'm thinking about, for instance, finding names written on a wall, repeating them to a guy as he tells you a story, and this way you'll get some skin to use as a trampoline. I'm sorry, I just don't see it.
I've never needed a pen and paper for any other Monkey Island game. What are you referring to?
I always need pen and paper in Melee Island. in this small shop, to get the combination for the safe. My Brain-Memory is not good enough to make it without. ^^
I need Pen and Paper in Curse, when you fight against Van Helgen, to get the right strings on the banjo.
But, i think youre right in the point, that the Monkey Combat-Thing is more complex, so it takes much more time. maybe this is annoying for some people.
Oh, and by "the puzzle didn't make sense", I meant that the puzzled seemed illogical for the sake of being complicated, and that once you found the solution, you didn't think "oh, how could I miss it" but "what the hell?". I'm thinking about, for instance, finding names written on a wall, repeating them to a guy as he tells you a story, and this way you'll get some skin to use as a trampoline. I'm sorry, I just don't see it.
Okay. Youre right. But as I remeber, there werent much more puzzles like this in EFMI.
Okay. Youre right. But as I remeber, there werent much more puzzles like this in EFMI.
I honestly couldn't tell you. I played it when it came out, was disappointed with it and didn't play it again.
I remember that specific puzzle because it made an impression on me, but I seem to recall there were other puzzles I was annoyed with.
I also didn't like the part where there is some time-travel paradox for no reason at all. I had no clue what that was supposed to be about, apart from making you remember the order of a couple of items.
I just felt like some of the puzzles weren't really integrated into the story. Hence that patchwork feel I mentioned earlier.
I will give you that most of my frustration came from how hard it was to play it on my computer. It wouldn't have been quite as bad otherwise, but still I wouldn't have liked it as much as the previous ones. Some of the things just felt like stuff being brought back just to be brought back. The various characters, but also insult arm-wrestling. It didn't feel as integrated as the other insult fights, in MI1 and MI3, were. It was like it was mentioned because they thought fans would appreciate, but they didn't want to make a big deal out of it so it was kinda in the middle, there but not quite.
I also didn't like the part where there is some time-travel paradox for no reason at all. I had no clue what that was supposed to be about, apart from making you remember the order of a couple of items.
For me that was one of the funniest and craziest scenes in a game ever. Always makes me laugh. MAybe a matter of taste, but i think that was really creative.
For me that was one of the funniest and craziest scenes in a game ever. Always makes me laugh. MAybe a matter of taste, but i think that was really creative.
The only part I didn't like was Guybrush's comment "Oh wow, I've never used a gun before" *rewind 3 Months* *Use Gun with Banjo* It WAS a required puzzle to get further in the game.
The only part I didn't like was Guybrush's comment "Oh wow, I've never used a gun before" *rewind 3 Months* *Use Gun with Banjo* It WAS a required puzzle to get further in the game.
Escape just spits all over Curse, this is simply obvious. There is no more Big Whoop carnival in EMI (they could've at least allude to it leaving a broken "Big Whoop" sign doodad next to the giant monkey head), it's a robot instead. Then there are several plot inconsistencies.
But the time paradox joke in Mists o'Tyme marsh is more of a puzzle than a reference itself. Beside the rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle item, of course.
Escape just spits all over Curse, this is simply obvious. There is no more Big Whoop carnival in EMI (they could've at least allude to it leaving a broken "Big Whoop" sign doodad next to the giant monkey head), it's a robot instead. Then there are several plot inconsistencies.
Indeed. When I played it for the first time, I wondered where the carnival went. AND I HATE THAT STUPID ROBOT, MURRAY-THERE-FOR-NO-REASON, RUINING THE SCUMM BAR, OVERALL LACK OF PIRATY-NESS, ANTICLIMACTIC ENDING...
[/emi_rant] *sigh* okay... ahem... Anyway, speaking of puzzles that make no sense, can anyone tell me where the solution or hint is ingame for the hand-password puzzle in MI2? ("If this is 5, what is this?") I always had to save at the dialogue tree, try a number and reload if I was incorrect.
Comments
But just for the record, Sierra's quest line was a pioneer of its genre. It was the first company to release quests in 8-bit graphics, 16 bits, 256 bits, music, sound and, eventually - 3D effects. Sierra released King's Quest VII, the first 100% hand drawn animated quest in 1994. It was a breakthrough every time.
LA, on the other hand, always had funny games. There was no boring storyline where some king goes to save someone, and no hero died in the game. So humor and plot side it was better than Sierra's quests. Which evens out.
EMI does have camera-relative controls, you can switch between both. I prefer character-relative when playing with a keyboard but have switched to camera-relative once I got a gamepad.
EMI's was next-previous as well and I don't understand what you mean by "can grow up to three sizes your screen"; the screen always contained all items.
The only differences in usability between this and GF's were that you could see how far you are from a specific item (that's a pro) and that you could get confused over which direction to press (that's a con, but a small one as you'd realise your mistake after one item change and eventually would get used to it).
What I meant is when you picked up a big item all the others were becoming small and the circle was hu-uge. Plus I know that in Grim you could press numbers from 1 to 0 for the first ten picked items to get straight to them. I don't remember if it was the same in EMI, but I do remember going long "right-right-right-right-right-left" to get one.
Also, in LA games you never hit a dead end because you hadn't picked up a vital object that appears only once on one screen, there were no pointless arbitrary deaths, and they didn't hide vital items in a bloody wrecked boat on a random island with no clue to its presence and no outward sign that it's even there... fffffffffffffff... Damn you Roberta Williams!
Also, Escape is not City of the Lost Children. To this day I can't figure out how in the name of god you're meant to know what to do in that game.
Actually, going quite back, you COULD potentially die in the following LA quests:
- Maniac Mansion (when either of them crazies in the family catches you).
- Zak McKraken (when aliens catch you at the end)
- both Inidiana Jones (but you had to do something REALLY stupid, like fighting a sober 10 ft tall Nazi juggernaut)
- The Dig & Full Throttle (when you screw up both endings)
- Loom (when you piss off Cobb... just kidding, you didn't really die in Loom).
Still, what is this compared to like 20 Sierra games just WAITING for that time you touch a cobra or something to write you a "TOLD YA SO!!" diss like jerks... Hmpf! I always hated that.
The WORST parts for me were the ones where you had to cross long, winding paths over a chasm, where clicking one pixel too far meant you fell to your death. Over and over and over again. I think that was a staple for the first five KQ games anyway. Plus you could die by falling down stairs in III and IV, because apparently Alexander and Rosella have bones made of candycane.
Remember that one in KQV when you get to the mountains, you can't go back anymore, and if you don't have a chunk of meat and a coat you can say yourself goodbye right off?
I liked some of them, though. Like Larry 5 and 6. You could die or screw up, but at least it was in somewhat funny and not just plain dumb ways (like telling a female dentist that you think she's hot while she does your teeth to die from dental machine evisceration
Well, if you have the custard pie instead of the meat you can eat that instead, but then you're boned when you meet the Yeti. But what's a KQ game without constant, CONSTANT reloading?
No, you do need the cloak too, the pie is just an alternative to the meat. A USELESS alternative.
The worst Sierra death announcements come from King's Quest V.
"Dying for a drink Graham?"
"That last step was a doosy!"
You can die in Monkey Island 1 if you can't figure out what to do when your tied to the idol of many hands and you're underwater for 10 minutes. The verbs even change. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade had quite a few deaths in it (I lost track how many times I died in that damn Nazi castle and not just Biff the Nazi's health) If you forget to make that axe fall before you're tied up you pretty much have to guess and you have no way of know that your going to get caught and held there. At least in Fate they toned down the number of deaths. I don't mind dying in adventure games, that makes it challenging, just don't make it so challenging that if you can die for the most illogical reason.
Yeah, well, if you count ALL the times you lose (not necessarily die) in them then yes, but I was talking more about situations they don't put you back at the start of the puzzle, but merely at the start of the whole game if you didn't save it before (and I was one of those folks who don't usually save games just because I was too lazy to
What I liked in Sierra quests was the ambiguity of the ways you could pass a game (LA only did it once, in Fate, with three different ways to solve the same puzzles), and I was also a fan of having items that you can use in multiple situations (not just once and on the same thing every time). But dying in Sierra games just overpowered any will of playing their games.
I also remember playing Westwood's Kyrandia, and to be honest, you didn't die that much and that stupidly in there, which probably made a pretty good quest out of it.
Too bad they stopped at 3 thou.
You could die relatively easily, but there was always an "undo" button to undo the last action. Except in one case (can't remember exactly) when by the time you actually died it was too late for "undo" to do anything.
That one sucked, but so did it in KQ5 if you didn't save cedrick on the harpy island and then find out later you had to save him in order to avoid being hit by Mordack's wand. I made it a habit to make multiple save games in Sierra games.
Yeah, I liked Kyrandia, but some of the puzzles I never understood without a walkthrough, and I hated the mazes. I don't think it had too many illogical puzzles ( unless you save in the first one when you only have one berry and there isn't a fire bush in the next room)
I don't think you guys understand my meaning. Maybe it was a bad example, but OP (Hee Ho Ho) was saying that the first 3 MI games graphics were bad compared to EMI. I was trying to say that you can't compare 2D to 3D, they're in a seperate category of graphics and therefore are set to a different standard. In that way, one can say SMI (EGA or VGA) looks better than KQ1, in the same way that Tales looks better than EMI.
Okay, for the record, KQ is my favorite Sierra series... so don't hate for my comparing EMI to KQ1. I was only trying to say that EMI's graphics haven't aged well. Come on, even if you like KQ1, you have to say that despite how groundbreaking they were for their day, the graphics still don't hold a candle to later 2D adventure games.
...in retrospect, maybe I should have said that comparing SMI's graphics to EMI's is akin to comparing Super Mario Bros.' graphics to MegaMan64's, and said that you can only properly compare MegaMan64 to something else 3D like... well, any 3D Zelda or Mario game, and Super Mario Bros to another 2D game. My whole point was he was comparing apples to oranges.
On the other hand, I'd have to say their Sam&Max in 3D is much of an improvement to the classic Sam&Max Hit the Road of 1994. It has a much more realistic look, all with the same ease of using their models. In that case, yes, I think I can say that the last 10-15 years were a progress to the overall graphics switch from 2D to 3D. But some games had as good 3D graphics as today's back in 2000 already, no matter how groundbreaking that was.
You realise what polygons are, right? ToMI clearly has a lot more than EMI.
Also I disagree on 2000 3D looking anywhere decent. Compare NWN1 (UGLY!) with Baldur's Gate 2 (Pretty). Why? Because one is generic 3D while the other has beatifully handcrafted backpaintings as decor (a la Curse of Monkey Island). And that is timeless (IMO)...
You read between the lines. I said time is not a factor, and it's the same polygons, not that there is more or less of them. Today's tri-dimensionality is better than early-to mid-1990s (basically used only in movies and cutscenes), but it's not more efficient than the one we had in 2000. Easier to animate - yes. More efficient - no.
"Sure"
Arghh damn forum reflex!!
ha ha.
Anyway, say what you will, but the first 3 MI games have timeless graphics and EMI's suck now. So, whether you agree with my explanation or not, Hee Ho Ho is still wrong in saying that EMI's graphics are better than SMI/MI2/CMI. Pick any other reason why, if you don't agree with my own.
I'm perfectly happy to replay the first 3 MI games and Tales, but I did find myself recently watching a 'Let's Play' of EMI on YouTube rather than replay it myself.
EDIT:
ahem.... anyway, "I have no idea what you just said about 'tri-dimensional thingamabobs' so I will just say..."
How appropriate, you fight like a cow.
(and, I like your avatar, Uzr.)
Maybe graphics are an issue, but I wouldn't call the game an "epic fail" for the reasons I already mentioned. To me it seems that pseudo-3D in EMI was just a little something that tipped over the whole whining jar. There was a pretty childish plot with many inconsistencies, hard to cope with controls, not always working cutscenes, etc. etc. So, after playing masterpieces such as Curse, it's not a wonder you have the will to regurgitate all over when you compare it to EMI. But, taken apart from the other games, I still think it was an average game, playable on its own, and nevertheless still somehow popular (look at everyone who argues inside this thread - hey, they played it
By far.
Is it just only the graphic-thing? Come on. Nearly every classic adventure fan says, that graphics are not really important in that Genre. And i saw Graphic Adventures with much more horrible Graphic than Escape from MI. Especially the mix of 3d and 2d is quite well. Could be much worse.
The Controls? Why? I mean okay, i prefer the old Point and Click Style, but the Escape controls were okay. They were not really complicated, worked quite well, Escape did not become any action adventure game like some people have been worried about, before the release. 3D Graphic, Keyboard_Controls? Who cares, it worked really well, it still felt like an old style Graphic Adventure, with short ways to walk and all that stuff.
But the most important thing about a game like this has othing to do with graphic or controls. It depends on the Storyline and the puzzles . And the Escape-Storyline was awesome, the puzzles were much better than for example in the Curse-Game.
What i loved in MI2: Better puzzles, more places to go, travelling between Islands and stuff.
I was a bit disappointed about Curse. Okay, for me it has the best graphicStyle of all MI-Games, but the puzzles were much to easy, there werent much places to go. And i was able to finish the game much to fast. And in the end i thought:"That was all?"
And this is why i like to compare "Escape" to Le Chuck Revenge. I spent much more hours with it, than with curse. There were much more places to go, the puzzles were much more difficult. There were more Islands, more Travelling, and the story was more complex than in Curse.
All this things made Escape a real Highlight in the MI-Series, in my opinion.
And i feel that a lot of people dont have real good arguments in complaining about "Escape". Feels more like they are complaining, because its stylish to hate "Escape".
Well, until I came on this forum, I didn't even know the game was hated. Well, I knew I didn't like it. Didn't know about anyone else.
I disliked the controls, that bugged with my computer. Not only did I have to use the arrows, like everyone, but it always moved by two. That is, if the options were
1
2
3
and I wanted to select 2, I had to go down twice. The first time it made me go from 1 to 3, and the second from 3 to 2. But if there was a 4th option? I couldn't select 2 or 4. It was incredibly frustrating.
Then the story felt short and the puzzle made no sense to me. Instead of a linear story it felt like a patchwork of little things that had nothing to do together. And as for the story being a good one, I can't even remember it so I'd say that no, it wasn't.
The graphics were only annoying insofar that they caused the switch from a good interface to a terrible one. Sure, they looked bad, and it's annoying to go from something that looks good to something that looks bad, especially when you know the stuff that looks bad probably took more work. But it would have been okay otherwise.
The Monkey Kombat required you to keep a paper with all combinations written, too. That was frustrating, and it took a while before people used the right combinations for you to learn them all.
Oh, and they reintroduced characters just for the sake of it, which I didn't like.
So that's pretty much it as far as I'm concerned.
It's the only game MI game I never finished, that's an indication all by itself. Glad I loaned it from the library (it still borrowed out games back in these days) instead of bought it...
Didnt have that problem.
Hmm. Felt the story was quite bigger than in MI 1 and Curse. It was more complex.
What do you mean with "the puzzles made no sense to me." ?
I think there are always a few puzzles which are a bit stupid. Think of "Secret of Monkey Island" in Chapter 2, in the Kitchen. Doesn't make any sense. ^^
Thats what i mean, the story was a bit more complex. Everything made sense. But you must be able to follow the story. But i think this can't be to difficult in a MI-Game. I think you watch movies?
I you wish, and if you be nice i could tell you the whole story.
No, it was really well. It was some kind of political conspiracy thriller in the carribbean. There was an australian Business-Man named Ozzy Mandrill. He wanted to buy everything in the carribean, and cast out all the pirates, to change the carribean into a big touristic place. So he found Le Chuck wo stucked in the Ice-Block. He rescued him, and Le Chuck promised to help Ozzy with his plans, if Ozzy helps him to get Elaine.
Le Chuck became Gouverneur of Melee. Elaine Lost her House, and stuff like that. A real conspiracy-thing. ^^ Dramatic.
Best one of all the MI-Games.
They were good enough, for a year 2000 game. Monkey Island never was a High End Graphic thing, and early 3D Graphic was always a bit ugly. Did you ever saw Simon The Sorcerer 3D? Came out a few years after Escape and looked much more shitty.
In all MI-Games you need pen and Paper for a few puzzles. And Sword fight in Secret of Monkey Island takes time, too. Also the Sword fight/ Ship Fight thing in Curse. And i always think, please continue with chapter 3. ^^
But I also said, the graphic is the best one of all MI-Games, and i love the Soundtrack. Curse is beautifull. But a beatiful package is not everything you want from a game.
But i never said that i hate Curse. Never would say that. Love all MI-Games. But if i compare curse to Le Chucks Revenge ore EFMI, it is a bit disappointing in the aspects above.
I've never needed a pen and paper for any other Monkey Island game. What are you referring to?
The sword insults take time, but at least they're entertaining. Each one is a joke with a comeback. The Monkey Kombat is just positions, none fundementally any different from the previous one, so learning a new one doesn't bring you anything as a player, while learning a new insult brings some laughs.
Oh, and by "the puzzle didn't make sense", I meant that the puzzled seemed illogical for the sake of being complicated, and that once you found the solution, you didn't think "oh, how could I miss it" but "what the hell?". I'm thinking about, for instance, finding names written on a wall, repeating them to a guy as he tells you a story, and this way you'll get some skin to use as a trampoline. I'm sorry, I just don't see it.
I always need pen and paper in Melee Island. in this small shop, to get the combination for the safe. My Brain-Memory is not good enough to make it without. ^^
I need Pen and Paper in Curse, when you fight against Van Helgen, to get the right strings on the banjo.
But, i think youre right in the point, that the Monkey Combat-Thing is more complex, so it takes much more time. maybe this is annoying for some people.
Okay. Youre right. But as I remeber, there werent much more puzzles like this in EFMI.
I honestly couldn't tell you. I played it when it came out, was disappointed with it and didn't play it again.
I remember that specific puzzle because it made an impression on me, but I seem to recall there were other puzzles I was annoyed with.
I also didn't like the part where there is some time-travel paradox for no reason at all. I had no clue what that was supposed to be about, apart from making you remember the order of a couple of items.
I just felt like some of the puzzles weren't really integrated into the story. Hence that patchwork feel I mentioned earlier.
I will give you that most of my frustration came from how hard it was to play it on my computer. It wouldn't have been quite as bad otherwise, but still I wouldn't have liked it as much as the previous ones. Some of the things just felt like stuff being brought back just to be brought back. The various characters, but also insult arm-wrestling. It didn't feel as integrated as the other insult fights, in MI1 and MI3, were. It was like it was mentioned because they thought fans would appreciate, but they didn't want to make a big deal out of it so it was kinda in the middle, there but not quite.
For me that was one of the funniest and craziest scenes in a game ever. Always makes me laugh. MAybe a matter of taste, but i think that was really creative.
The only part I didn't like was Guybrush's comment "Oh wow, I've never used a gun before" *rewind 3 Months* *Use Gun with Banjo* It WAS a required puzzle to get further in the game.
But the time paradox joke in Mists o'Tyme marsh is more of a puzzle than a reference itself. Beside the rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle item, of course.
Indeed. When I played it for the first time, I wondered where the carnival went. AND I HATE THAT STUPID ROBOT, MURRAY-THERE-FOR-NO-REASON, RUINING THE SCUMM BAR, OVERALL LACK OF PIRATY-NESS, ANTICLIMACTIC ENDING...
[/emi_rant] *sigh* okay... ahem... Anyway, speaking of puzzles that make no sense, can anyone tell me where the solution or hint is ingame for the hand-password puzzle in MI2? ("If this is 5, what is this?") I always had to save at the dialogue tree, try a number and reload if I was incorrect.