I can't catch a damn break here. Since it didn't rain today like it was supposed to, I'm off to start trenching for a sprinkler system. Can't get a freaking day off here...
I'm not sure I like this chart anymore. It's like a visual representation of the extent of my addiction and it makes me uncomfortable about how much time I spend posting in this thread.
But, there's still five people above me, so it's all good.
It is a thing of hypnotic beauty and/or ugliness! I'm rather pleased that the "top dozen posters are responsible for more than 50% of posts" theory holds up.
I can't catch a damn break here. Since it didn't rain today like it was supposed to, I'm off to start trenching for a sprinkler system. Can't get a freaking day off here...
One of the rare times I hear someone complain about not getting rain. For me it's sunshine as far as the forecast can see, and I'm good with that!
I get pissed off when I write a response to a post in here before realizing that the odd properties of this thread mean that it actually occurred 10 pages back.
I guess my main problem with Kreia is that you the player can't do anything about her, and you can almost never please her unless you have a guide telling you how she reacts to every decision. One moment she'll scold you for stopping to help someone in need, the next she'll praise you for it. It's very hard to get a read on what she approves of.
You say this, but is it true?
If you just keep her on the ship, there are 14 chances for gaining INF with Kreia, and 7 chances to lose it:
INCREASE
Five opportunities are tied to saying that you are willing to your party members to reach your ends and that you don't trust them. These are on the ship, and actually don't affect any other characters. That's 45 points of INF, which if all are hit bring the base of 50 to 95, enough to get all INF rewards.
Two that are linked to this, but I'll keep it as a different category because people are fussy about this notion: Two are related to using and not trusting Kreia. "I will view you as disposable then" and "If there's anyone I don't trust, it's you".
Three have to do with respecting her teachings without being overtly philanthropic about it. Accepting the Lesson of Listening, asking to continue the Lesson of Listening, saying "Very well, I will take this lesson to heart" about the Lesson of Skills. Also, she speaks telepathically to you on Nar Shadaa, and her lesson here is probably linked to your dismissal of the character. If you neither harm nor help the beggar, you may go through the lesson and respect her teachings for an INF boost, whereas this segment actually has no INF decrease hooks.
Two are tied to the Lesson of Strength, which you only get if you are Dark Side at the point during which you visit Nar Shadaa. If you accept the lesson, you get your 8 points. I actually find the second one odd though, and never got it because I was following the logic of all previous INF opportunities, in which you say you do not need that lesson as the only strength you need is yourself. So there's a stray 8 points I hadn't accounted for out of 104(and you only need 40 to get all INF rewards and 50 to max out).
And one is just a gimme, you gain INF when you get her to tell you about her past with Revan.
DECREASE
Six have to do with saying that you trust or want to help your party members.
One has to do with disregarding her teachings, saying the Lesson of Listening is beneath you.
Outside of the ship, if she's in your party, of course she'll start judging your actions as well as your words. Her INF gain opportunities have to do with manipulating people indirectly. Persuasion and Awareness options often do the trick. Telling her that you hear and respect what she says about your actions and telling her that you want to "follow something to its source" or otherwise grow to further understand something gain INF. Rash actions performed on your own, helping or hindering others under a strict code of "I'm gonna do nice things now" or "I'm gonna do mean things now" without first exploring all other options, that is the surest way to lose INF with Kreia.
By the way, these aren't some obscure triggers, either. The game hints like crazy. Atton says in an unavoidable story dialog that Kreia cares about what you think of the things she says. Kreia's alignment is meant to show that she's not a strict adherent of the Light or Dark paths, it is not what she believes, etc. Kreia makes sure you know that she does not trust your companions, and really how much of a stretch is it to say that the best way to gain INF is to agree with her? That's 45 points worth of INF right there!
It's obvious that Kreia isn't QUITE as easy to get as someone whose main barometer is "Do Nice Things" or "Do Mean Things". All the same, G0-T0 has a very similarly "complex"(motivations that aren't "Do Nice Things" or "Do Bad Things") Influence triggers, but you never see anybody talking about HIM. No, it's always Kreia. Kreia sucks, Kreia's a pain in the ass, Kreia's a bitch, Kreia is a mystery wrapped in shadow hidden within the dead of night, etc etc.
And then even if you were to follow some kind of Kreia Happiness Guide online, it doesn't change anything. She's going to kill the Jedi Masters and go back to being a Sith regardless of your actions. It feels very un-Star Wars to me--Luke turns Vader from the dark side, Palpatine turns Anakin to the dark side, Revan turns Bastila back from the dark side, Jacen Solo falls to the dark side for all the right reasons, etc. Star Wars always has this, but Kreia doesn't give you that option. Given that Bioware games and by extension this sequel to a Bioware game have always put a big emphasis on interacting with and influencing your companions, it's frustrating to many players that you can't do anything with Kreia.
First of all, I do not know why you hold Kreia to different standards than every other character in the cast. A fully Dark Side Handmaiden, trained in the ways of the Dark Jedi, will still object to killing those who do not have a "threatening" stance. Fully Light Side HK-47 will still delight in murder. The INF system, as cool as it is, does not change the characters outside of the INF-related conversation trees.
Secondly, to say that Kreia "fell" to the "Dark Side" is to misunderstand the entire point of the character, to misunderstand a major story theme of KOTOR II so completely that I don't understand how you could have gained any enjoyment from it.Kreia did not "fall", as everyone says that Revan did not "fall". Sith, Jedi, Kreia sees no difference. These are titles to her, roles she can take on when the plan suits her. She exists in a place outside this conflict between Jedi and Sith, she cannot be redeemed through the rules of that same conflict.
Like the canonical Revan, her goals are greater than any Jedi or Sith seems to aspire to. Revan became a Sith because it was the only way to save the Republic, because it was the only way to prepare for a war against Naga Sadows remnant, the True Sith. While Malak was your typical Sith Lord, Kreia and Revan are set apart.
Redemption is close to the core of Star Wars, but what you're looking for is a far too basic, far too literal look at the structure of the series. You're looking at themes, but what Avellone did runs deeper than that. He was dealing in the base elements of the universe, pushing them into new and unfamiliar light to give it a new value, and you scoff at it because under this new light you can't quite see the same form without it being distorted in some way.
Kreia cannot be redeemed because she is not a Sith, nor was she a Jedi. She may have been at some point, but by the time she trained Revan she had escaped the boundaries of that conflict. "Jedi" became a title she took on, because it was a platform under which she could be a teacher. As the story goes, Revan went back to her because of this.
Kreia also cannot be redeemed for a very simple to understand reason: She hates The Force. She hates that it tries to achieve a balance, that it has a will that it exerts. The Jedi follow the Force, they believe in its will, they try to listen to it and follow it as a means toward greater enlightenment. As she says, though, "It was a mistake to make you feel it again, I know that now. There is no truth in The Force. But there is truth in you." For her to go from one to the other, for the reason that "I like this one person", seems entirely contrived considering her character arc. While she appreciates an attempt to save her, while she wants to hear that last attempt at redemption, while she wants you to care about what happens to her in the end...she knows, in her heart, that she has to do what she has done in order to complete your training, to prepare you for the war to come. To redeem her there, in the depths of Malachor, would be to undermine everything which she has fought and plans to die for.
There's only one true Tom on these forums, and I'm not him.
But Fawful thats exactly why I was sent back.
At some point in time, I become you, you become Tom, and Tom...
Well.. he becomes... something else.....
I think it has something to with some kind of food, or a phrase, but due to clonking my head on a novelty wooden clock during my travels, the exact memory has been lost.
I am fairly sure this is inaccurate, as I refuse to accept I am not in the top thirty.
I don't know whether or not non-mods can do it, but I made this chart by clicking on the thread's total post count in the forum index, then copying and pasting the whole thing to Excel. It turns white at the end because that's including every person who's made just one post in here. I just only squeezed in the top 40 posters in the key.
Comments
I feel like I've seen this artist before.
And just as I was about to ask who it is, I remembered and found his deviantArt.
ME: Its over now Woody. You've had your fun, and now I'm taking you in.
Woody: "This town ain't big enough for the two of us."
ME: You're damn right, now either hand yourself in or die!
Woody: "Reach for the sky"
ME: With what, you don't have a gun!
*takes a sip of water*
Woody: "Somebody's poisoned the waterhole!"
Looks at bottle.
ME: WOODY! YOU...
*dies*
AWWWWW.
Troll!Woody does a dance to celebrate victory.
Troll!Woody turns into Troll!Porn!Woody. Who will he terrorize next?
Troll!Porn!Woody sees The Comrade and sneaks up behind him while licking his lips.
Wait, am I Magneto or Professor X? Make up your frakking mind and we'll talk.
That sounds like you're just trying to cover your ass, to me.
Of course I'm trying to cover my ass, with Troll!Porn!Woody on the loose!
Thanks for making me red, buddy! Whatever happened to Fealiks, anyway?
Fukkin' knew it.
What's your problem? You saying I should let that thing hump my ass? Is that what you want? For Troll!Porn!Woody to hump my ass? You sick bastard.
Nothing can stop him now! NOTHING!!!
Wow! I can actually see my part of the pie!
I'm not sure whether I should be proud or ashamed of this...
Woody: Found you Fawful....
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Wow, I actually appear on the pie chart. As insignificant and minuscule as it may be, I'm still extremely proud of this accomplishment.
O_O Wow. That's... a lot of people.
PS. I spend all this time just posting and posting and I'm not even in the top ten? WTF dude.
But, there's still five people above me, so it's all good.
I am fairly sure this is inaccurate, as I refuse to accept I am not in the top thirty.
This is still one of my favorite pics on the internet though XD
Oh hey, I think I can see myself in that graph! I...think, it's hard to tell with so many similar colors x__X
It is a thing of hypnotic beauty and/or ugliness! I'm rather pleased that the "top dozen posters are responsible for more than 50% of posts" theory holds up.
The pattern kind of reminds me of a nautilus:
One of the rare times I hear someone complain about not getting rain. For me it's sunshine as far as the forecast can see, and I'm good with that!
Wow I actually know where my part of the graph is.
Yay.
Yeah, I hate it when that happens.
Bahaha... well done sir.
How the hell did he hijack my own joke out from under me.
I think you and I are represented by the same color. That or the color tones differ by about one hexadecimal. Either way, I feel slightly less unique.
If you just keep her on the ship, there are 14 chances for gaining INF with Kreia, and 7 chances to lose it:
INCREASE
Five opportunities are tied to saying that you are willing to your party members to reach your ends and that you don't trust them. These are on the ship, and actually don't affect any other characters. That's 45 points of INF, which if all are hit bring the base of 50 to 95, enough to get all INF rewards.
Two that are linked to this, but I'll keep it as a different category because people are fussy about this notion: Two are related to using and not trusting Kreia. "I will view you as disposable then" and "If there's anyone I don't trust, it's you".
Three have to do with respecting her teachings without being overtly philanthropic about it. Accepting the Lesson of Listening, asking to continue the Lesson of Listening, saying "Very well, I will take this lesson to heart" about the Lesson of Skills. Also, she speaks telepathically to you on Nar Shadaa, and her lesson here is probably linked to your dismissal of the character. If you neither harm nor help the beggar, you may go through the lesson and respect her teachings for an INF boost, whereas this segment actually has no INF decrease hooks.
Two are tied to the Lesson of Strength, which you only get if you are Dark Side at the point during which you visit Nar Shadaa. If you accept the lesson, you get your 8 points. I actually find the second one odd though, and never got it because I was following the logic of all previous INF opportunities, in which you say you do not need that lesson as the only strength you need is yourself. So there's a stray 8 points I hadn't accounted for out of 104(and you only need 40 to get all INF rewards and 50 to max out).
And one is just a gimme, you gain INF when you get her to tell you about her past with Revan.
DECREASE
Six have to do with saying that you trust or want to help your party members.
One has to do with disregarding her teachings, saying the Lesson of Listening is beneath you.
Outside of the ship, if she's in your party, of course she'll start judging your actions as well as your words. Her INF gain opportunities have to do with manipulating people indirectly. Persuasion and Awareness options often do the trick. Telling her that you hear and respect what she says about your actions and telling her that you want to "follow something to its source" or otherwise grow to further understand something gain INF. Rash actions performed on your own, helping or hindering others under a strict code of "I'm gonna do nice things now" or "I'm gonna do mean things now" without first exploring all other options, that is the surest way to lose INF with Kreia.
By the way, these aren't some obscure triggers, either. The game hints like crazy. Atton says in an unavoidable story dialog that Kreia cares about what you think of the things she says. Kreia's alignment is meant to show that she's not a strict adherent of the Light or Dark paths, it is not what she believes, etc. Kreia makes sure you know that she does not trust your companions, and really how much of a stretch is it to say that the best way to gain INF is to agree with her? That's 45 points worth of INF right there!
It's obvious that Kreia isn't QUITE as easy to get as someone whose main barometer is "Do Nice Things" or "Do Mean Things". All the same, G0-T0 has a very similarly "complex"(motivations that aren't "Do Nice Things" or "Do Bad Things") Influence triggers, but you never see anybody talking about HIM. No, it's always Kreia. Kreia sucks, Kreia's a pain in the ass, Kreia's a bitch, Kreia is a mystery wrapped in shadow hidden within the dead of night, etc etc.
First of all, I do not know why you hold Kreia to different standards than every other character in the cast. A fully Dark Side Handmaiden, trained in the ways of the Dark Jedi, will still object to killing those who do not have a "threatening" stance. Fully Light Side HK-47 will still delight in murder. The INF system, as cool as it is, does not change the characters outside of the INF-related conversation trees.
Secondly, to say that Kreia "fell" to the "Dark Side" is to misunderstand the entire point of the character, to misunderstand a major story theme of KOTOR II so completely that I don't understand how you could have gained any enjoyment from it.Kreia did not "fall", as everyone says that Revan did not "fall". Sith, Jedi, Kreia sees no difference. These are titles to her, roles she can take on when the plan suits her. She exists in a place outside this conflict between Jedi and Sith, she cannot be redeemed through the rules of that same conflict.
Like the canonical Revan, her goals are greater than any Jedi or Sith seems to aspire to. Revan became a Sith because it was the only way to save the Republic, because it was the only way to prepare for a war against Naga Sadows remnant, the True Sith. While Malak was your typical Sith Lord, Kreia and Revan are set apart.
Redemption is close to the core of Star Wars, but what you're looking for is a far too basic, far too literal look at the structure of the series. You're looking at themes, but what Avellone did runs deeper than that. He was dealing in the base elements of the universe, pushing them into new and unfamiliar light to give it a new value, and you scoff at it because under this new light you can't quite see the same form without it being distorted in some way.
Kreia cannot be redeemed because she is not a Sith, nor was she a Jedi. She may have been at some point, but by the time she trained Revan she had escaped the boundaries of that conflict. "Jedi" became a title she took on, because it was a platform under which she could be a teacher. As the story goes, Revan went back to her because of this.
Kreia also cannot be redeemed for a very simple to understand reason: She hates The Force. She hates that it tries to achieve a balance, that it has a will that it exerts. The Jedi follow the Force, they believe in its will, they try to listen to it and follow it as a means toward greater enlightenment. As she says, though, "It was a mistake to make you feel it again, I know that now. There is no truth in The Force. But there is truth in you." For her to go from one to the other, for the reason that "I like this one person", seems entirely contrived considering her character arc. While she appreciates an attempt to save her, while she wants to hear that last attempt at redemption, while she wants you to care about what happens to her in the end...she knows, in her heart, that she has to do what she has done in order to complete your training, to prepare you for the war to come. To redeem her there, in the depths of Malachor, would be to undermine everything which she has fought and plans to die for.
But his name isn't Tom...
Not yet it isn't!
It is now.
In the future!
Now, how do you know that? I wonder....
You've figured out how to time travel, haven't you?
Myspace Tom? Tom of the Molemen? Tom Jones? Simon Tom? River Tom? Tom Tompson? INQUIRING MINDS DEMAND ANSWERS
Yes. Want a souvenir from Rome?
But Fawful thats exactly why I was sent back.
At some point in time, I become you, you become Tom, and Tom...
Well.. he becomes... something else.....
I think it has something to with some kind of food, or a phrase, but due to clonking my head on a novelty wooden clock during my travels, the exact memory has been lost.
I don't know whether or not non-mods can do it, but I made this chart by clicking on the thread's total post count in the forum index, then copying and pasting the whole thing to Excel. It turns white at the end because that's including every person who's made just one post in here. I just only squeezed in the top 40 posters in the key.
Yes, please! I've always wanted a legionnaire helmet. Or a gladius. Either one.