He just said that so Clem wouldn't live with a bad conscience, if you save him instead he then tells you that it was either him or Jane and said that she was looking for a fight. Im suprised how people overlook this detail as it is an obvious one.
Kenny has lived with a bad conscience and knows how it will eat at you, he never forgave him self for abondining Shawn (as he mentioned to Lee) or even causing Alvin's death (determinant). It only makes sense that he didnt want Clem to experience the same inner demons as him.
What are everyone's thought after you shoot Kenny and he says "You made the right choice."
Should Telltale have put that in? It kind of l… moreeads you to think it was the right ending because it was Kenny approved. Or maybe he was lying to make Clementine not dwell on him so much? I don't know, post your thought!
....
He admits it!
I'm a woman. I got the lady bits and there's no denying that.
Doesn't even like potatoes!
Fal… morese. I love potatoes.
Uncivil question asking non-potato eating foreigner!
I am from Texas, don't you forget it.
Go back to England!
You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas!
As for your first point about Jane being shallowly stabbed once when and only when you pick up the gun.
Well when skimming through all the comments of the What was your ending? thread about 99% of people picked up the gun; I could only find one or two users on these forums who didn't pick it up. Are you saying we should ignore what happens in 99% of peoples' playthroughs?
As for your first point about Jane being shallowly stabbed....That detail is IRRELEVANT when we look at the whole fight.
Why is that point irrelevant? If you ignore the shallowly-stabbed detail then you ignore my whole argument about how it's clear Kenny was dangerous and was going to be a murderer before you shoot him, and my argument that Jane wasn't written well. If you ignore what I have to say, how am I supposed to debate with you?
You say the shallow-stabbing detail is irrelevant when we look at the whole fight, and you talk about the stomach-slashing instead:
As I have already pointed out, Jane made her INTENTION to kill Kenny when she slashed his stomach and chased after him outside.
Let's look at that in the silent playthrough:
[Jane and Kenny are struggling on the ground. Clem has the option to pull Jane off of Kenny. If Clem doesn’t, Kenny pushes Jane off of him eventually, knocking her back to the ground. He gets up and advances on her.]
K: You’re fuckin’ DEAD!
J: Fuck you! [Jane slices Kenny’s stomach.]
C: Oh my god… [Kenny retreats outside]
K: Grr!
J: THIS IS ALL YOUR FUCKIN’ FAULT! [Jane pursues Kenny through the door]
Note that this dialogue takes place for everyone if you wait long enough before choosing a dialogue option; therefore this dialogue is not determinant. Like I said before, I don't think it's Jane's intention to kill Kenny here just yet. You argue that Jane clearly wants to kill Kenny since she "eagerly slashed" his stomach. Yes, she does this after he declares, "You're fuckin' DEAD!" a clear death threat if I ever saw one. This statement is the first time in the fight that either Kenny or Jane declares a death threat or an intention to kill the other. After he advances on her, she slashes his stomach, probably out of instinct or just to drive him back. Wouldn't you do the same if someone had just threatened to kill you and was advancing on you? Also note that Jane was pretty handy with that knife. It could very well be that she made the stomach slash shallow on purpose because she didn't want to kill Kenny just then, but just drive him back. And chasing after someone and yelling "THIS IS ALL YOUR FUCKIN' FAULT" may prove Jane is angry, but this is no evidence at all proving that Jane wants to kill him yet. In fact, you could interpret her words here to be that Jane thinks it's Kenny's "fuckin' fault" that he is pushing her to kill him. But again you can't 100% conclude that she will kill him just by saying this.
As for your second point that Jane didn’t know that Kenny would try to kill her. I maintain that you are wrong.
When she had abandoned her original plan to let Clem decide to leave Kenny, she made up her mind to force Kenny to leave because if he didn’t then she would attempt to kill him. This is why Jane warned Kenny to leave, otherwise she would fight him to the death.
But you just agreed with me right here in the second quote! You said, "if he didn’t [leave] then she would attempt to kill him," and "...otherwise she would fight him to the death." Exactly! Jane would kill him if and only if he didn't leave. She hadn't made up her mind to kill him yet! She was willing to let him go alive! And, Jane wasn't sure if he would leave or not.
Now, you still say that Jane knew that Kenny would kill her from the start ("I maintain that you are wrong....that Jane didn't know that Kenny would try to kill her.") But if Jane wasn't sure if he would leave or not like we both just agreed upon as indicated in the paragraph above, how could she possibly be sure Kenny would stay for certain and kill her?
"Crazy people don't know they're crazy"
As we have seen in this episode, Kenny was not a psychotic person, he knew he was screwing up and he promised to be better. A psychotic person would never admit that he has a problem.
If Jane’s scheme was merely to show Kenny’s violent side and then reveal the truth about AJ and that Kenny still wouldn’t believe her, but instead attempt to murder her, then Clem is morally obligated to kill Kenny.
Yeah you're right. If Jane had confessed about AJ like it would've made sense for her character to, there would've been no big final choice at the end of this game. If Kenny hadn't stopped after that confession, near everyone would've realized Kenny was killing Jane for no good reason, and would've tried to stop Kenny. Hence the bad writing on Jane.
Jane had changed her plans into trying to MURDER Kenny.
Yes. Jane changed her plan to kill Kenny, but only after Kenny stated that he would not leave, and after he stated that he would kill Jane (he states this before she ever says she will kill him.) Thus Jane concluded that this man was not safe for Clem to be around if he would kill people irrationally without evidence. Therefore he had to leave in some way or another.
But her personality has consistently stayed the same throughout episode 4 and 5, with Clem being her hope in changing
Let me bring to your attention the fact that if you let the timer run out when deciding to let the family in, Jane will decide to let them in. That's character development if I've ever seen it, after Jane's spent time with Clem. So yes, Clem is probably Jane's hope in changing for the better.
Now let's consider your original comment:
While Kenny had a "It’s my way or the highway" attitude, never once did he force others to follow him
There was no time to discuss where to go until Clem had woken up.
No, Kenny had already decided where they were going. Kenny was driving, and from this:
J: Now that Clem’s awake we should talk about where we’re going.
K: We’re headed north.
and when Kenny says "we can turn around just as soon as you pry this wheel from my cold, dead fingers," we can conclude Kenny is clearly already heading in the direction he thought Wellington was. In addition, if Clem asks, "Where are we?" after she first wakes up, Kenny says, "We've been driving a few hours now." So Kenny's probably been going in the direction of Wellington for a few hours, not just in circles. And before the "dead fingers" comment, they say this:
K: I’ll pull this fuckin’ car over.
J: Go ahead.
K: You wanna die out here?
J: Better than waitin’ to die next to you.
Thus Kenny knows the only options here are follow him, or die in the cold. I.e. agree with him, or die.
I’ll say emphatically KENNY IS A MURDERER for killing Jane, plain and simple.
Great; I'm glad you agree Kenny is a murderer. Now with this fact, Clem unfortunately had the choice to either look away or to kill Kenny in defense of Jane as stated by the Right of Self-Defense of Others, not murder the near-murderer Kenny for two reasons: 1) in order to save Jane, who did not deserve to die, and 2) in order to stop Kenny from becoming a murderer.
You can argue however that this killing wasn't justified, since Kenny seemed redeemable afterwards in his endings. Of course I regret having Kenny dead; if there had been an option where both Jane and Kenny could've lived I would've taken it. But alas there wasn't.
...P.S. I'm getting tired of this debate, even if I can't quite let it go. Idk if you are. Sorry it took me so long to reply again; I had a whole reply written up before and then my comp lost it. ;_;
Thank you for your comment
As for your first point about Jane being shallowly stabbed once when and only when you pick up the gun. That … moredetail is IRRELEVANT when we look at the whole fight. As I have already pointed out, Jane made her INTENTION to kill Kenny when she slashed his stomach and chased after him outside. She even proclaims her intention to kill Kenny when Clem asks Jane to "back off" by saying "No, Clem. It’s time to put this crusty piece of shiz out of his misery". By making her intention to kill Kenny she made it clear that she WASN’T going to tell the truth about AJ as the fight had now become a fight to the death. For Jane to tell the truth at the "verge of death" would make no difference as all reasoning had now been left to the wayside. Both Jane and Kenny knew that when they were already at each other’s throats. You must also remember that the TWD game series is a game with limits and is confined to the parameters of th… [view original content]
Ok, here we go. I've been really reluctant to get into this debate that often, but since you prompted me I will. I'm mostly defending Jane h… moreere because well, you unfairly didn't at all, especially if you're trying to be "unbiased." However I will note that I am mad at Jane. Anyway... * cracks knuckles * Two main things, and then a bunch of nitpicks:
1) One detail that I never see anyone bring up anywhere, and will be relevant later in this post:
Skip to the end of the fight, when Kenny is bearing down on Jane with the knife to her chest.
Jane: Clem...help!
No one ever notices that Kenny has ALREADY SHALLOWLY STABBED HER ONCE IN THE CHEST before stabbing her a second time to finally kill her. Remember that red stain on her heart when she's standing by the car if you shot Kenny? That was where Kenny stabbed her once already, before killing her.
After she's stabbed once, Jane is about to die. She is on the verge of death. Now … [view original content]
Your feelings and judgements of the situation are almost exactly the same as mine (I just finished the episode). I had a feeling Jane may have been up to something but one needs to be certain before even considering murder as a punishment. Shit, Lee didn't even kill Carly when she deserved it. I never really trusted Kenny, even in season one, but he didn't deserve Jane's selfish, careless act of "pragmatism."
I just can't agree with the notion that Jane was in anyway justified or not a complete psycho. I'm sorry but what she did was wrong and trul… morey horrific.
I shot kenny. Now I shot kenny because at that point I didn't know what else to do. In the moment I felt it was entirely possible that she was attacked by walkers and had no choice but to abandon the baby, and kenny killing her was just not right.
When I picked the gun up I wasn't thinking in terms of playing favorites I always tried to play with a righteous mind set. At that moment I was pissed off about the baby right along side of kenny, but I dont feel it was justification to kill her.
Now here's the part that blows my mind, with people siding with jane. When I found out that she lied about the baby and ended up causing me to kill someone who had always protected me, and reguardless of his aggression was ALWAYS acting on behalf of keeping the group safe. Sure there was several tim… [view original content]
You do realize that people can shoot guns with only one eye, right? Especially if the open one is their dominant eye.
Now, while I think it's better to shoot with both eyes open, there still are plenty of people who choose to close one eye to aim and are able to shoot successfully. So, I don't see how Kenny's situation is unrealistic.
Or Kenny being a pretty damn good shot with his one eye.
Injuries in The Walking Dead tend to be there for cosmetic effect. It's why Clementine's doing fine despite not getting any medical treatment for being shot.
Merged the Kenny/Jane Analysis thread. Normally I would close it, but the thread was high quality and the posts were mostly civil.
The first post from that thread can be found on page one.
Thread: What did the Kenny vs Jane fight remind you of
It's not about the "flame wars" going on in this website. It's about the REAL fi… moreght. The fight reminded me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7v5uDy9Zr0
If you compare that to the Kenny vs Jane fight,it is similar to that situation. Your character gets knocked out in a middle of a fight and you have to do something to stop them .
What does the Kenny vs Jane fight remind you of?
" I shot Kenny because I couldn't let him murder somebody. I have, up to this point, been brutal when it comes to people that murder, and that will never change, as murder is the worst thing a person can do to another. "
So in your opinion the worst thing a person can do to another person is murder? You do know that by shooting Kenny, you are murdering him right?
" I really liked Kenny. My Clem loved Kenny, thought of him as family, but that doesn't change my decision. You don't let people murder each-other. If you can stop it you have to try. "
You are not stopping other people from murdering each other, if you decide to murder them yourself. It in fact makes you a murderer.
I shot Kenny because I couldn't let him murder somebody. I have, up to this point, been brutal when it comes to people that murder, and tha… moret will never change, as murder is the worst thing a person can do to another.
I really liked Kenny. My Clem loved Kenny, thought of him as family, but that doesn't change my decision. You don't let people murder each-other. If you can stop it you have to try.
" I shot Kenny because I couldn't let him murder somebody. I have, up to this point, been brutal when it comes to people that murder, and th… moreat will never change, as murder is the worst thing a person can do to another. "
So in your opinion the worst thing a person can do to another person is murder? You do know that by shooting Kenny, you are murdering him right?
" I really liked Kenny. My Clem loved Kenny, thought of him as family, but that doesn't change my decision. You don't let people murder each-other. If you can stop it you have to try. "
You are not stopping other people from murdering each other, if you decide to murder them yourself. It in fact makes you a murderer.
Well yes, it is in fact still a murder. They were both trying to kill each other and Jane told you several times throughout the entire fight that you should stay out of it. Then, when she finally realized that she will die due to her stupid plan, she asks you to shot Kenny. If you like Jane more than Kenny, well that's fine. But saying that you decided to shot Kenny because you could not let him murder somebody is nonsense.
No it's not nonsense. If Jane was on top bringing the knife down on Kenny I'd have shot her just the same.
At that moment I realized that he was "actually" going to kill her unless I did something right then. There was no doubt in my mind that it was going to happen that way, so I shot him to prevent him from murdering her.
If this were to happen today, with cameras, and witnesses, and it was "me" that was shooting Kenny I wouldn't be tried for murder.
Well yes, it is in fact still a murder. They were both trying to kill each other and Jane told you several times throughout the entire fight… more that you should stay out of it. Then, when she finally realized that she will die due to her stupid plan, she asks you to shot Kenny. If you like Jane more than Kenny, well that's fine. But saying that you decided to shot Kenny because you could not let him murder somebody is nonsense.
You should look it up in the dictionary because you are wrong.
Thats why people aren't thrown in prison for killing people in self defense. Kenny was going to Murder Jane. The simple fact of it is you are also an accessory to murder for not trying to stop it. If you like Kenny more than Jane, well that's fine. But trying to change the very definition of murder to try and win the argument is nonsense.
Well yes, it is in fact still a murder. They were both trying to kill each other and Jane told you several times throughout the entire fight… more that you should stay out of it. Then, when she finally realized that she will die due to her stupid plan, she asks you to shot Kenny. If you like Jane more than Kenny, well that's fine. But saying that you decided to shot Kenny because you could not let him murder somebody is nonsense.
" Thats why people aren't thrown in prison for killing people in self defense. "
Clem was not acting in self defense, she wasn't in any kind of danger. You just decided to Kill Kenny, instead of letting him kill Jane.
" Kenny was going to Murder Jane. "
They were both trying to kill each other. Alot of people (including you) seem to forget this very important point.
" The simple fact of it is you are also an accessory to murder for not trying to stop it. "
As i just mentioned, they were both trying to kill each other and Jane told you several times thougout the entire fight that no matter what happens, should stay out of it. You in fact murdered Kenny, so please stop to deny this obvious fact.
" But trying to change the very definition of murder to try and win the argument is nonsense."
Yes, you are right it is nonsense...so please don't do it anymore.
it is in fact still murder
You should look it up in the dictionary because you are wrong.
Thats why people aren't thrown in priso… moren for killing people in self defense. Kenny was going to Murder Jane. The simple fact of it is you are also an accessory to murder for not trying to stop it. If you like Kenny more than Jane, well that's fine. But trying to change the very definition of murder to try and win the argument is nonsense.
" If this were to happen today, with cameras, and witnesses, and it was "me" that was shooting Kenny I wouldn't be tried for murder. "
Yes, you would be. They were both trying to kill each other and Jane was the person that started this whole fight in the first place. You didn't act in self defense, you decided to kill the person you liked less.
No it's not nonsense. If Jane was on top bringing the knife down on Kenny I'd have shot her just the same.
At that moment I realized tha… moret he was "actually" going to kill her unless I did something right then. There was no doubt in my mind that it was going to happen that way, so I shot him to prevent him from murdering her.
If this were to happen today, with cameras, and witnesses, and it was "me" that was shooting Kenny I wouldn't be tried for murder.
" If this were to happen today, with cameras, and witnesses, and it was "me" that was shooting Kenny I wouldn't be tried for murder. "
Ye… mores, you would be. They were both trying to kill each other and Jane was the person that started this whole fight in the first place. You didn't act in self defense, you decided to kill the person you liked less.
And fuck you for this. I did NOT like Kenny less. If it would have been Jane on top bringing the knife down I would have shot her and NOT EVEN FELT GUILTY ABOUT IT, especially after finding out that AJ was alive.
" If this were to happen today, with cameras, and witnesses, and it was "me" that was shooting Kenny I wouldn't be tried for murder. "
Ye… mores, you would be. They were both trying to kill each other and Jane was the person that started this whole fight in the first place. You didn't act in self defense, you decided to kill the person you liked less.
What country are you from Mustache? I'm from the USA. Here in the US if one person is trying to kill another person you, as a citizen, can use lethal force to stop a murder and in self defense (at least in most states).
" Thats why people aren't thrown in prison for killing people in self defense. "
Clem was not acting in self defense, she wasn't in any k… moreind of danger. You just decided to Kill Kenny, instead of letting him kill Jane.
" Kenny was going to Murder Jane. "
They were both trying to kill each other. Alot of people (including you) seem to forget this very important point.
" The simple fact of it is you are also an accessory to murder for not trying to stop it. "
As i just mentioned, they were both trying to kill each other and Jane told you several times thougout the entire fight that no matter what happens, should stay out of it. You in fact murdered Kenny, so please stop to deny this obvious fact.
" But trying to change the very definition of murder to try and win the argument is nonsense."
Yes, you are right it is nonsense...so please don't do it anymore.
" Thats why people aren't thrown in prison for killing people in self defense. "
Clem was not acting in self defense, she wasn't in any k… moreind of danger. You just decided to Kill Kenny, instead of letting him kill Jane.
" Kenny was going to Murder Jane. "
They were both trying to kill each other. Alot of people (including you) seem to forget this very important point.
" The simple fact of it is you are also an accessory to murder for not trying to stop it. "
As i just mentioned, they were both trying to kill each other and Jane told you several times thougout the entire fight that no matter what happens, should stay out of it. You in fact murdered Kenny, so please stop to deny this obvious fact.
" But trying to change the very definition of murder to try and win the argument is nonsense."
Yes, you are right it is nonsense...so please don't do it anymore.
They were both trying to kill each other. Alot of people (including you) seem to forget this very important point.
Ah I see. You're one of those people. Gotta rewrite the real events to make Jane look worse. Ok have fun with that.
“The right of self-defense (according to U.S. law) (also called, when it applies to the defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for civilians acting on their own behalf to engage in a level of violence, called reasonable force or defensive force, for the sake of defending one's own life or the lives of others, including, in certain circumstances, the use of deadly force.”
The fight took place in the U.S., so I'd imagine U.S. laws would be used.
You seem to forget the obvious fact that they both tryed to kill each other and that Jane was the person that started the whole fight in the first place. She also told you several times thoughout the entire fight that no matter what happens, you should stay out of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_self-defense
“The right of self-defense (according to U.S. law) (also called, when it applies to th… moree defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for civilians acting on their own behalf to engage in a level of violence, called reasonable force or defensive force, for the sake of defending one's own life or the lives of others, including, in certain circumstances, the use of deadly force.”
The fight took place in the U.S., so I'd imagine U.S. laws would be used.
You know what fuck it I'm not getting into this again. I've argued this point a trillion times. No one is going to budge on what they saw. The simple truth is Jane tried to challenge Kenny and around here thats literally the worse thing anyone can ever do.
Jane started the whole fight LMAO. Thats why when Kenny came back with murder in his eyes attacking her she started the fight by being there...... You Kenny fanboys smh.....
You seem to forget the obvious fact that they both tryed to kill each other and that Jane was the person that started the whole fight in the… more first place. She also told you several times thoughout the entire fight that no matter what happens, you should stay out of it.
This law is invalid here.
There is no point to argue about this, atleast you are right about that point. Jane obviously tried to kill Kenny, this is a undenyable fact. I realy don't understand how some people can be this blind...
Using a meme doesn't help your argument
Jane was not trying to kill Kenny....
You know what fuck it I'm not getting into this again. … moreI've argued this point a trillion times. No one is going to budge on what they saw. The simple truth is Jane tried to challenge Kenny and around here thats literally the worse thing anyone can ever do.
There is no point to argue about this, atleast you are right about that point. Jane obviously tried to kill Kenny, this is a undenyable fact. I realy don't understand how some people can be this blind...
There you go using the word "fact" again. Clearly not knowing what that word means.
A fact is verified by scientific proof. Jane was merely defending herself against someone trying to kill her. How can someone be this blind indeed.
Jane didn't care about the baby and wanted to get rid of it. this is a fact
Jane made a plan to show Clem who Kenny really is. this is a … morefact
The plan was hiding the baby so that Kenny would think she killed it. this is a fact
The plan's only purpose was to eventually start a fight so that they both could get rid of Kenny IN SOME WAY. this is a fact
Jane told Clem to stay out of it. this is a fact
Kenny got mad and started the fight that Jane WANTED. this is a fact
Jane's strong independant womyn bullshit didn't work and she got overpowered by the superior bearded god. this is a fact
What is it with you Kenny fanboys and the misuse of the word "fact"?
How is any of this scientifically proven?
I can say "you eat your own feces. FACT" does that somehow make it true?
I'm so done. Its been over a month and people like you still cant accept other people's thoughts over a damn video game. I get it. You're meager life has no value so you need to be right about this. I'm sorry. I'm sorry you're life sucks this much that you have to be right. By all means if it helps you feel better take me bowing out of this retarded argument as a victory. pats on the head its ok you do matter.
None of these definitions help your case.
Everything I mentioned up there HAPPENED within the game. There are visuals, sounds and te… morext all about it. Something that HAPPENED is a FACT.
So what you're saying is you do eat your own feces?
Very mature of you
Comments
He just said that so Clem wouldn't live with a bad conscience, if you save him instead he then tells you that it was either him or Jane and said that she was looking for a fight. Im suprised how people overlook this detail as it is an obvious one.
Kenny has lived with a bad conscience and knows how it will eat at you, he never forgave him self for abondining Shawn (as he mentioned to Lee) or even causing Alvin's death (determinant). It only makes sense that he didnt want Clem to experience the same inner demons as him.
See? He admits it! Doesn't even like potatoes! Uncivil question asking non-potato eating foreigner! Go back to England!
XD
....
I'm a woman. I got the lady bits and there's no denying that.
False. I love potatoes.
I am from Texas, don't you forget it.
You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas!
Oh, you like potatoes? I'm sorry; I had you all wrong!
We can be friends now
Did you guys know WW3 is starting? O_O
I'm back! Let's get right back into it:
Well when skimming through all the comments of the What was your ending? thread about 99% of people picked up the gun; I could only find one or two users on these forums who didn't pick it up. Are you saying we should ignore what happens in 99% of peoples' playthroughs?
Why is that point irrelevant? If you ignore the shallowly-stabbed detail then you ignore my whole argument about how it's clear Kenny was dangerous and was going to be a murderer before you shoot him, and my argument that Jane wasn't written well. If you ignore what I have to say, how am I supposed to debate with you?
You say the shallow-stabbing detail is irrelevant when we look at the whole fight, and you talk about the stomach-slashing instead:
Let's look at that in the silent playthrough:
[Jane and Kenny are struggling on the ground. Clem has the option to pull Jane off of Kenny. If Clem doesn’t, Kenny pushes Jane off of him eventually, knocking her back to the ground. He gets up and advances on her.]
K: You’re fuckin’ DEAD!
J: Fuck you! [Jane slices Kenny’s stomach.]
C: Oh my god… [Kenny retreats outside]
K: Grr!
J: THIS IS ALL YOUR FUCKIN’ FAULT! [Jane pursues Kenny through the door]
Note that this dialogue takes place for everyone if you wait long enough before choosing a dialogue option; therefore this dialogue is not determinant. Like I said before, I don't think it's Jane's intention to kill Kenny here just yet. You argue that Jane clearly wants to kill Kenny since she "eagerly slashed" his stomach. Yes, she does this after he declares, "You're fuckin' DEAD!" a clear death threat if I ever saw one. This statement is the first time in the fight that either Kenny or Jane declares a death threat or an intention to kill the other. After he advances on her, she slashes his stomach, probably out of instinct or just to drive him back. Wouldn't you do the same if someone had just threatened to kill you and was advancing on you? Also note that Jane was pretty handy with that knife. It could very well be that she made the stomach slash shallow on purpose because she didn't want to kill Kenny just then, but just drive him back. And chasing after someone and yelling "THIS IS ALL YOUR FUCKIN' FAULT" may prove Jane is angry, but this is no evidence at all proving that Jane wants to kill him yet. In fact, you could interpret her words here to be that Jane thinks it's Kenny's "fuckin' fault" that he is pushing her to kill him. But again you can't 100% conclude that she will kill him just by saying this.
But you just agreed with me right here in the second quote! You said, "if he didn’t [leave] then she would attempt to kill him," and "...otherwise she would fight him to the death." Exactly! Jane would kill him if and only if he didn't leave. She hadn't made up her mind to kill him yet! She was willing to let him go alive! And, Jane wasn't sure if he would leave or not.
Now, you still say that Jane knew that Kenny would kill her from the start ("I maintain that you are wrong....that Jane didn't know that Kenny would try to kill her.") But if Jane wasn't sure if he would leave or not like we both just agreed upon as indicated in the paragraph above, how could she possibly be sure Kenny would stay for certain and kill her?
I didn't say Kenny was exactly the same as Lizzie; of course Lizzie is far worse than Kenny is, and everyone who's seen the show knows that. I was merely citing the closest example I could think of in TWD franchise. And please, please stop claiming the phrase, "Crazy people don't know they're crazy" is pure fact when it isn't completely. The term for this is called, "Anosognosia," meaning when an ill person doesn't realize that they're ill. Studies say that anosognosia, though present in many mentally ill patients, is nowhere near present in all patients: Impaired awareness of illness (anosognosia)...affects approximately 50 percent of individuals with schizophrenia and 40 percent of individuals with bipolar disorder. and Poor insight is a cardinal symptom of schizophrenia that, while not universally and uniformly expressed in all patients, is among the most common of its manifestations. Although Kenny is nowhere near as damaged as Lizzie is, just because he is aware of his mistakes does NOT mean he's well. He is still dangerous. If they wanted to show he wasn't dangerous, they should've shown Kenny not trying to murder someone when he had no evidence whatsoever that they were guilty.
Yeah you're right. If Jane had confessed about AJ like it would've made sense for her character to, there would've been no big final choice at the end of this game. If Kenny hadn't stopped after that confession, near everyone would've realized Kenny was killing Jane for no good reason, and would've tried to stop Kenny. Hence the bad writing on Jane.
Yes. Jane changed her plan to kill Kenny, but only after Kenny stated that he would not leave, and after he stated that he would kill Jane (he states this before she ever says she will kill him.) Thus Jane concluded that this man was not safe for Clem to be around if he would kill people irrationally without evidence. Therefore he had to leave in some way or another.
Let me bring to your attention the fact that if you let the timer run out when deciding to let the family in, Jane will decide to let them in. That's character development if I've ever seen it, after Jane's spent time with Clem. So yes, Clem is probably Jane's hope in changing for the better.
Now let's consider your original comment:
No, Kenny had already decided where they were going. Kenny was driving, and from this:
J: Now that Clem’s awake we should talk about where we’re going.
K: We’re headed north.
and when Kenny says "we can turn around just as soon as you pry this wheel from my cold, dead fingers," we can conclude Kenny is clearly already heading in the direction he thought Wellington was. In addition, if Clem asks, "Where are we?" after she first wakes up, Kenny says, "We've been driving a few hours now." So Kenny's probably been going in the direction of Wellington for a few hours, not just in circles. And before the "dead fingers" comment, they say this:
K: I’ll pull this fuckin’ car over.
J: Go ahead.
K: You wanna die out here?
J: Better than waitin’ to die next to you.
Thus Kenny knows the only options here are follow him, or die in the cold. I.e. agree with him, or die.
Great; I'm glad you agree Kenny is a murderer. Now with this fact, Clem unfortunately had the choice to either look away or to kill Kenny in defense of Jane as stated by the Right of Self-Defense of Others, not murder the near-murderer Kenny for two reasons: 1) in order to save Jane, who did not deserve to die, and 2) in order to stop Kenny from becoming a murderer.
You can argue however that this killing wasn't justified, since Kenny seemed redeemable afterwards in his endings. Of course I regret having Kenny dead; if there had been an option where both Jane and Kenny could've lived I would've taken it. But alas there wasn't.
...P.S. I'm getting tired of this debate, even if I can't quite let it go. Idk if you are. Sorry it took me so long to reply again; I had a whole reply written up before and then my comp lost it. ;_;
This is amazing.
Aw thank you.
Your feelings and judgements of the situation are almost exactly the same as mine (I just finished the episode). I had a feeling Jane may have been up to something but one needs to be certain before even considering murder as a punishment. Shit, Lee didn't even kill Carly when she deserved it. I never really trusted Kenny, even in season one, but he didn't deserve Jane's selfish, careless act of "pragmatism."
You do realize that people can shoot guns with only one eye, right? Especially if the open one is their dominant eye.
Now, while I think it's better to shoot with both eyes open, there still are plenty of people who choose to close one eye to aim and are able to shoot successfully. So, I don't see how Kenny's situation is unrealistic.
I'd hardly call it that.
Merged the Kenny/Jane Analysis thread. Normally I would close it, but the thread was high quality and the posts were mostly civil.
The first post from that thread can be found on page one.
Thank you for merging it and not just closing it.
this was the fight:
this was my clem:
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e262/dubqnp/forced_to_watch.jpg
i wish i could have walked away to look for AJ the moment jane implied he was still alive.
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No.
" I shot Kenny because I couldn't let him murder somebody. I have, up to this point, been brutal when it comes to people that murder, and that will never change, as murder is the worst thing a person can do to another. "
So in your opinion the worst thing a person can do to another person is murder? You do know that by shooting Kenny, you are murdering him right?
" I really liked Kenny. My Clem loved Kenny, thought of him as family, but that doesn't change my decision. You don't let people murder each-other. If you can stop it you have to try. "
You are not stopping other people from murdering each other, if you decide to murder them yourself. It in fact makes you a murderer.
sigh
It's not murder to use lethal force to stop somebody from murdering somebody else.
Well yes, it is in fact still a murder. They were both trying to kill each other and Jane told you several times throughout the entire fight that you should stay out of it. Then, when she finally realized that she will die due to her stupid plan, she asks you to shot Kenny. If you like Jane more than Kenny, well that's fine. But saying that you decided to shot Kenny because you could not let him murder somebody is nonsense.
No it's not nonsense. If Jane was on top bringing the knife down on Kenny I'd have shot her just the same.
At that moment I realized that he was "actually" going to kill her unless I did something right then. There was no doubt in my mind that it was going to happen that way, so I shot him to prevent him from murdering her.
If this were to happen today, with cameras, and witnesses, and it was "me" that was shooting Kenny I wouldn't be tried for murder.
You should look it up in the dictionary because you are wrong.
Thats why people aren't thrown in prison for killing people in self defense. Kenny was going to Murder Jane. The simple fact of it is you are also an accessory to murder for not trying to stop it. If you like Kenny more than Jane, well that's fine. But trying to change the very definition of murder to try and win the argument is nonsense.
" Thats why people aren't thrown in prison for killing people in self defense. "
Clem was not acting in self defense, she wasn't in any kind of danger. You just decided to Kill Kenny, instead of letting him kill Jane.
" Kenny was going to Murder Jane. "
They were both trying to kill each other. Alot of people (including you) seem to forget this very important point.
" The simple fact of it is you are also an accessory to murder for not trying to stop it. "
As i just mentioned, they were both trying to kill each other and Jane told you several times thougout the entire fight that no matter what happens, should stay out of it. You in fact murdered Kenny, so please stop to deny this obvious fact.
" But trying to change the very definition of murder to try and win the argument is nonsense."
Yes, you are right it is nonsense...so please don't do it anymore.
" If this were to happen today, with cameras, and witnesses, and it was "me" that was shooting Kenny I wouldn't be tried for murder. "
Yes, you would be. They were both trying to kill each other and Jane was the person that started this whole fight in the first place. You didn't act in self defense, you decided to kill the person you liked less.
Not in the USA I wouldn't. Maybe somewhere else I would?
And... "According to witnesses at the scene the man attacked the woman."
"you decided to kill the person you liked less."
And fuck you for this. I did NOT like Kenny less. If it would have been Jane on top bringing the knife down I would have shot her and NOT EVEN FELT GUILTY ABOUT IT, especially after finding out that AJ was alive.
What country are you from Mustache? I'm from the USA. Here in the US if one person is trying to kill another person you, as a citizen, can use lethal force to stop a murder and in self defense (at least in most states).
Ah I see. You're one of those people. Gotta rewrite the real events to make Jane look worse. Ok have fun with that.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_self-defense
“The right of self-defense (according to U.S. law) (also called, when it applies to the defense of another, alter ego defense, defense of others, defense of a third person) is the right for civilians acting on their own behalf to engage in a level of violence, called reasonable force or defensive force, for the sake of defending one's own life or the lives of others, including, in certain circumstances, the use of deadly force.”
The fight took place in the U.S., so I'd imagine U.S. laws would be used.
You seem to forget the obvious fact that they both tryed to kill each other and that Jane was the person that started the whole fight in the first place. She also told you several times thoughout the entire fight that no matter what happens, you should stay out of it.
This law is invalid here.
Using a meme doesn't help your argument
Jane was not trying to kill Kenny....
You know what fuck it I'm not getting into this again. I've argued this point a trillion times. No one is going to budge on what they saw. The simple truth is Jane tried to challenge Kenny and around here thats literally the worse thing anyone can ever do.
Jane started the whole fight LMAO. Thats why when Kenny came back with murder in his eyes attacking her she started the fight by being there...... You Kenny fanboys smh.....
There is no point to argue about this, atleast you are right about that point. Jane obviously tried to kill Kenny, this is a undenyable fact. I realy don't understand how some people can be this blind...
There you go using the word "fact" again. Clearly not knowing what that word means.
A fact is verified by scientific proof. Jane was merely defending herself against someone trying to kill her. How can someone be this blind indeed.
Jane didn't care about the baby and wanted to get rid of it. this is a fact
Jane made a plan to show Clem who Kenny really is. this is a fact
The plan was hiding the baby so that Kenny would think she killed it. this is a fact
The plan's only purpose was to eventually start a fight so that they both could get rid of Kenny IN SOME WAY. this is a fact
Jane told Clem to stay out of it. this is a fact
Kenny got mad and started the fight that Jane WANTED. this is a fact
Jane's strong independant womyn bullshit didn't work and she got overpowered by the superior bearded god. this is a fact
What is it with you Kenny fanboys and the misuse of the word "fact"?
How is any of this scientifically proven?
I can say "you eat your own feces. FACT" does that somehow make it true?
I think you're the one who doesn't know what a FACT is.
Here. Educate yourself
None of these definitions help your case.
So what you're saying is you do eat your own feces?
Everything I mentioned up there HAPPENED within the game. There are visuals, sounds and text all about it. Something that HAPPENED is a FACT.
Very mature of you
I'm so done. Its been over a month and people like you still cant accept other people's thoughts over a damn video game. I get it. You're meager life has no value so you need to be right about this. I'm sorry. I'm sorry you're life sucks this much that you have to be right. By all means if it helps you feel better take me bowing out of this retarded argument as a victory. pats on the head its ok you do matter.