Ok first of im sorry man. I know how much this means to you. The hatred it talked about was me trying to de-humanize him and de-victimizing him, hoping that i would see him as a personality lacking redemptionles monster that existence would be better without. I almost got somewhere but then the intense drugging up, the torture, the fact that him killing Alex was more of an animal response than anything willfull or wanted. The fact that if Owen had just picked anyone else he wouldn't have done it. I keep seeing him as a victim in all this (as wrong and disturbed as that might sound)
And to answer your questions:
1) Luke is a student who under the effects of Owens chemicals shot Alex Carson when the latter insulted him with agresion. He also saved two police officers and killed 5 drug dealers, leaving only one injured. He also almost killed one of the police officers he saved by attacking him. His actions are the main catalyst for many events including the discovery of Samantha's powers and her eventual death, Rachel Carson's relationship and Lana Dawking's revealing a pedophile.
2) Nothing
3) Defending? Nope not at all. I'm just not willing to take his life (Existance?). This is solidified by the latest part.
4) Again..............nothing
5) Innocent? No i think hes guilty as hell. I just don't think i can just kill of someone for doing a murder due to outside circumstanses he had absolutely no control over. Especially since i give unconditional mercy to almost every legitament psycho in other stories.
6) Because i personally believe that all life is precious. That taking a life for a life is something hypocritical and unethical. And that giving mercy to others ESPECIALLY when they do not deserve it is the most compassionate and human act.
But philosophy aside i just don't think its right at all. I really tried bro, i did. I kept trying to make him seem worse than demonic and it was working before with the 'he just keeps hurting people' thing but i just can't do it now. I'm trying my best to imagine Owen as a nazi camp psycho doctor to try and help but this just isn't easy.
7) That............to be perfectly honest and judging from past stories. Well i would be pissed as hell like you are, maybe worse but...............................i would'nt want them to die............I believe in life sentences. I always feel satisfied seeing them locked up, unable to do the harm that they so wish. The one time this happened was in Forum of the Dead when Mark's char killed my guy after ONE part something i only got over after many months. If you go back on that part you can see me going insane and randomly being pissed and depressed swearing revenge and stuff. But when Mark died.......i actually felt more pissed. I started to love the character. I just don't want ANYONE to die. I just vote like that.
Anyway you forgot that this part is the first to have Alex alive and with dialouge
Ok........Just so you know bro......im not voting to kill Luke.
Yeah, I already guessed that much and while I'm not exactly surprise… mored, I'm also a bit disappointed. Against my better judgement, I have hoped you would support me instead of supporting this murderous bastard, but I have already guessed that you and probably a majority of readers will see him as the victim all of a sudden, for no damn reason. But let me just say, he is not the victim. He is the killer! The moment he pulled the trigger was the moment he doomed himself. I just can't accept that he is going to live after all of this. Even thinking about the fact that he could survive the next chapter is utterly unbearable for me. I will never forgive him, I just can't and I simply can't accept him getting his happily ever after. And even though I know your opinion about this, I can just politely ask of you, please don't do that to me. Please, don't let him get away with that!… [view original content]
So... it took me a while to calm down enough to even write this comment/rant-hybrid, because my first emotion after reading this part has be… moreen rabid rage, close to my breaking point. I haven't been that angry in a very long time. To be honest, I'm obviously still madly in anger and I will continue to be so until Luke got the painful death he deserves. But well... I see I have been right with some of my theories, which would have been a pleasant surprise under any other circumstance. This time, surrounding the whole fucking mess that is Alex' death, there can be no pleasant surprises, although it is refreshing that I can finally stop holding back in my hatred. It really was Luke, he is exactly the monster I always claimed him to be, he really has no excuse, nothing that speaks in his favour, he really deserves my hatred and to make things even better, or perhaps, even worse, this bastard Owen is responsible as well! Oh, these fuckers... these … [view original content]
Ok first of im sorry man. I know how much this means to you.
Yes, I guess you do know, the anger, the sorrow, the frustration. And I guess you know how much your support would mean to me. I know you are usually one of the most awesome persons in this forum, but this time, I can't help but to feel dissapointment.
The hatred it talked about was me trying to de-humanize him and de-victimizing him, hoping that i would see him as a personality lacking redemptionles monster that existence would be better without.
He is a personality lacking, redemptionless monster who only did horrible things in his life and whose sheer existence means that he will only continue to cause pain and suffering, at least to me. This whole story would be better if he would have never even existed in the first place. I don't see why you even have to try to de-humanize and de-victimize him, because he is not human and he is not a victim, by any means. He is a monster. A complete fucking monster, who can't be allowed to live. He is like my own, personal Hitler.
the fact that him killing Alex was more of an animal response than anything willfull or wanted.
Does this change anything? No! This does not make him any better. If anything, it causes me even more grief, to know that it could have been avoided. It is literally what I said earlier, the worst case scenario.
I keep seeing him as a victim in all this (as wrong and disturbed as that might sound)
Yes, this sounds wrong and this is wrong, by any definition. Luke is not the victim. He is a murderer, the worst kind of murderer possible. Seeing him as a victim is degrading to the real victim here, which is Alex. What's next, do you want to give him a medal for being such a brave little victim?
1) Luke is a student who under the effects of Owens chemicals shot Alex Carson when the latter insulted him with agresion. He also saved two police officers and killed 5 drug dealers, leaving only one injured. He also almost killed one of the police officers he saved by attacking him. His actions are the main catalyst for many events including the discovery of Samantha's powers and her eventual death, Rachel Carson's relationship and Lana Dawking's revealing a pedophile.
No. Just no. This is wrong on so many levels. Luke is a monster posing as a student, a horrible hellspawn, nothing short of a demon, who murdered Alex for no reason at all. The police officers he saved only got into trouble because they were investigating his actions. He almost killed Mitch. His actions eventually caused the death of Samantha. His actions caused Rachel and especially Clive to fall into utter despair and I guess especially in Clive's case, the damage Luke did to his life can never be repaired. In Rachel's case, I doubt she is serious about this relationship either way. If anything, this relationship is her attempt at coping with the loss. On top of that his actions give me immense rage and pain. And finally, what does Luke have to do with Lana and Pittman? It was implied that Lana already heavily thought about going against Pittman way before Alex died. Besides, you make it seem as if anything good came out of Alex' death. It is quite the opposite. Luke's actions only brought pain and anger and as long as he lives, this pain and anger can't get better, not in my case. Only his death can make it better.
3) Defending? Nope not at all. I'm just not willing to take his life (Existance?). This is solidified by the latest part.
And still you are defending him from getting what he deserves. The latest part only made him worse, because it showed that he is worse than I imagined. He took a life, a life that was a hundred times better than his. Why should his life be protected for this? Why should he be rewarded, by being allowed to continue living his life?
5) Innocent? No i think hes guilty as hell. I just don't think i can just kill of someone for doing a murder due to outside circumstanses he had absolutely no control over. Especially since i give unconditional mercy to almost every legitament psycho in other stories.
He had control over what he did. He shot Alex, he alone did it and he has to die for it! I know, you are infuriatingly merciful to everyone in every other story, but this time it is something else. This time, Luke is the worst being imaginable and yet you still argue that he should live. For what? So that he can continue to cause sorrow with his sheer existence? Don't make me beg, bro. Just this once, I need your support here.
6) Because i personally believe that all life is precious. That taking a life for a life is something hypocritical and unethical. And that giving mercy to others ESPECIALLY when they do not deserve it is the most compassionate and human act.
This particular life is not precious at all. Alex' life was precious. Luke on the other hand has literally no worth. And killing him is not hypocritical and unethical, it is the logical consequence of his actions and the only thing that would truly honour his victim. Besides, do you seriously want me to forgive him? To tolerate his cancerous presence in this otherwise great story? I don't give a flying fuck about compassionate and human acts of kindness, not if that means that I will never get a chance to soothe my wrath. I mean, what do you expect me to do?
I'm trying my best to imagine Owen as a nazi camp psycho doctor to try and help but this just isn't easy.
Owen is like a nazi camp psycho doctor, but his victim is not better in any way. Luke deserved the torture Owen put him through and if anything, Owen has redeeming features for putting Luke through hours of agony. He did something good with this. He still has to die, but unlike Luke, he actually has a redeeming quality.
I believe in life sentences.
Well, here's the thing: There won't be a life sentence for him. There will be no punishment for him aside from the one we give him. By law, he would at best get a few months in a juvenile detention centre, before he gets to be a free man again, before he can live the life Alex never had, if he even gets any kind of punishment at all. A life sentence in the worst prison on earth, where he gets brutally raped and horribly tortured and mutilated beyond recognition by every other inmate and the guards for the rest of his life, that would be the sentence he deserves, that would be justice. Since that is not possible, he simply has to die.
The one time this happened was in Forum of the Dead when Mark's char killed my guy after ONE part something i only got over after many months. If you go back on that part you can see me going insane and randomly being pissed and depressed swearing revenge and stuff.
So, I see you can emphasize with my situation. But this makes me honestly even more baffled. Since you know your own anger back then, you know how much pain Luke's continuing existence causes me. And now imagine how it would be if everyone would start to argue that Mark's character is a victim here, that he must live and that killing him is wrong, for some stupid reason. I hope you can understand how terrible this absolutely helpless feeling of anger is.
But when Mark died.......i actually felt more pissed. I started to love the character
So, are you implying I could start to love Luke's character? The mere suggestion is disgusting! The big difference here is, I know that Mark's characters are usually awesome. Luke however is by far the worst character I have ever encountered. His personality can be summarized with one word: Evil. He is a flat, boring and aggravatingly hateable character. He is completely one-dimensional there is no depth at all to him and no matter what he does, he will always stay a one-dimensional being of pure evil. Are you seriously asking of me to love this flat character who literally caused me so much anger and pain?
I just don't want ANYONE to die. I just vote like that.
So, you rather want me to endure the pain of having this worthless waste of space alive? Is it really worth it for you? You said that Luke is nothing for you, so why do you want to keep him alive, knowing fully well how horrible this is for me?
Anyway you forgot that this part is the first to have Alex alive and with dialouge
Contrary to what I previously believed, it only made things worse. Now that I got a hint at what could have been, my hate for Luke got only stronger. At the same time, it made me once again wonder if it was a huge mistake to ever submit him, considering how it literally gave me only negative emotions and how it is likely to continue giving me nothing but frustration and sorrow. Hell, it has been hinted at that even if Luke gets what he deserves, it might result in Rachel's life getting ruined as well, which is just beyond frustrating and disappointing for me.
Ok first of im sorry man. I know how much this means to you. The hatred it talked about was me trying to de-humanize him and de-victimizing … morehim, hoping that i would see him as a personality lacking redemptionles monster that existence would be better without. I almost got somewhere but then the intense drugging up, the torture, the fact that him killing Alex was more of an animal response than anything willfull or wanted. The fact that if Owen had just picked anyone else he wouldn't have done it. I keep seeing him as a victim in all this (as wrong and disturbed as that might sound)
And to answer your questions:
1) Luke is a student who under the effects of Owens chemicals shot Alex Carson when the latter insulted him with agresion. He also saved two police officers and killed 5 drug dealers, leaving only one injured. He also almost killed one of the police officers he saved by attacking him. His actions are the main catalyst for many ev… [view original content]
I already do, oh Emperor Hope. Actually, I'm already way beyond hate when it comes to negative emotions that flow through me. To be honest, after all the thought I put into this case, I would have somewhat hated Luke even if he would have turned out to be completely innocent, simply for being the source of my hatred way before anything got confirmed. Now imagine how much worse I feel about him, now that it turned out that he is guilty. I don't think mere hate even begins to describe how I feel about Luke, but I am not sure if there is a word even stronger than hate, that would allow me to describe how I feel about Luke. Luckily, a quick google search helped me a little bit and gave me access to a few words which I haven't even heard about before. So... Abhor, maybe? Despise? Detest? Abominate? Yes, I abominate Luke, that sounds about right. The mere thought of him is enough to fill me with disgust. In contrast, I "merely" hate Owen. I hope it will end horribly for both of them. I also hope you don't expect me to forgive Luke or to lower my hatred against him, because that won't happen.
Ok first of im sorry man. I know how much this means to you.
Yes, I guess you do know, the anger, the sorrow, the frustration. And I… more guess you know how much your support would mean to me. I know you are usually one of the most awesome persons in this forum, but this time, I can't help but to feel dissapointment.
The hatred it talked about was me trying to de-humanize him and de-victimizing him, hoping that i would see him as a personality lacking redemptionles monster that existence would be better without.
He is a personality lacking, redemptionless monster who only did horrible things in his life and whose sheer existence means that he will only continue to cause pain and suffering, at least to me. This whole story would be better if he would have never even existed in the first place. I don't see why you even have to try to de-humanize and de-victimize him, because he is not human and he is not a victim, by any means.… [view original content]
Ok first of im sorry man. I know how much this means to you.
Yes, I guess you do know, the anger, the sorrow, the frustration. And I… more guess you know how much your support would mean to me. I know you are usually one of the most awesome persons in this forum, but this time, I can't help but to feel dissapointment.
The hatred it talked about was me trying to de-humanize him and de-victimizing him, hoping that i would see him as a personality lacking redemptionles monster that existence would be better without.
He is a personality lacking, redemptionless monster who only did horrible things in his life and whose sheer existence means that he will only continue to cause pain and suffering, at least to me. This whole story would be better if he would have never even existed in the first place. I don't see why you even have to try to de-humanize and de-victimize him, because he is not human and he is not a victim, by any means.… [view original content]
My god. At no point in my existace has someone wanted a character THIS much dead.
You might be right. In fact, I never wanted a character dead as much as him, not even Zafir and Trevor from Hope's other story. And Hope knows how much I hated these two. I think you could say, I hate Luke more than tumblr hates heterosexuals. I hate him more than Trump hates Mexicans. I hate him more than China hates the Civil Right Movement. I hate him more than North Korea hates South Korea. I hate him more than Canada hates impoliteness. I hate him more than Germany hates untidiness. I hate him more than Godzilla hates japanese cities. I hate him more than the entire GoT-fandom hates Olly. If I had a gun with three bullets and would be in a room with Hitler, Satan and Luke, I would team up with Hitler and Satan to beat Luke to near death and then I would shoot him three times, because fuck Luke. Yeah... I guess you can say I kinda want him dead.
Ok you know what ill do it.
But under the conditions we made previously. Also im not killing Owen then.
Works for me. I myself won't kill him if doing so obviously ruins Rachel's life. The rest... well, at this point of my hatred, I don't care anymore if my pursuit of vengeance ruins the life of someone, but I can fully understand that you won't kill him if any other life is ruined. And Owen... Owen is a complete scumbag, but Luke is way worse. And unlike Luke, it is almost guaranteed that he will spend a very long time in prison, perhaps even forever. In such a case, I'm satisfied if he survives. Though, what if Owen won't give us a choice? What if he attacks some character and this character has to kill him in self defense? Would you still agree to help me get my vengeance on Luke in such a case? And, let me ask another question: Is it only Luke's life you want to save? Consider for a moment the possibility of a way to make him pay in a way that satisfies even me, but which does not involve his death. Obviously, it would have to be a horrible fate for him so that it soothes my hatred, but it would, in a way, save his life. Would you support such a course of action as well, if it means that Luke can stay alive?
Would that please you bro? Would that actually make you happy?
Indeed. Oh yes, indeed. Most likely, at least. As I said, if taking well-deserved vengeance on the monster that killed her little brother would ruin Rachel's life, I wouldn't be happy at all. That would be the only thing worse than Alexander's death in general, because that way, I would be forced to spare Luke's life. But regardless of wether or not such a thing happens, your support in general means a lot. Thank you.
My god. At no point in my existace has someone wanted a character THIS much dead.
Ok you know what ill do it.
But under the conditions w… moree made previously. Also im not killing Owen then.
Would that please you bro? Would that actually make you happy?
Because under those conditions and ONLY those conditions i will do it. If only to end your anger ok.
If its self defense im ok with Owen dying if theres no other alternative.
No. If for example it was between Rachel and Luke (say killing Luke cures Rachel of terminal one hour cancer) you had me at no other way. The choice makes itself. Same with basically any character vs Luke or Owen. I don't want to kill the because i don't believe in it. But if we come between them and anyone else the choice is clear.
Im glad we reached a consensus I hate to argue with good friends.
My god. At no point in my existace has someone wanted a character THIS much dead.
You might be right. In fact, I never wanted a char… moreacter dead as much as him, not even Zafir and Trevor from Hope's other story. And Hope knows how much I hated these two. I think you could say, I hate Luke more than tumblr hates heterosexuals. I hate him more than Trump hates Mexicans. I hate him more than China hates the Civil Right Movement. I hate him more than North Korea hates South Korea. I hate him more than Canada hates impoliteness. I hate him more than Germany hates untidiness. I hate him more than Godzilla hates japanese cities. I hate him more than the entire GoT-fandom hates Olly. If I had a gun with three bullets and would be in a room with Hitler, Satan and Luke, I would team up with Hitler and Satan to beat Luke to near death and then I would shoot him three times, because fuck Luke. Yeah... I guess you can say I kinda want him dead.
… [view original content]
No. If for example it was between Rachel and Luke (say killing Luke cures Rachel of terminal one hour cancer) you had me at no other way. The choice makes itself. Same with basically any character vs Luke or Owen. I don't want to kill the because i don't believe in it. But if we come between them and anyone else the choice is clear.
Perhaps I should have worded this question differently. What I meant was, do you simply want to save Luke's life, or do you want to prevent any kind of harm from befalling him? That is a big difference after all. What I meant to ask was, would you be okay with giving him a fate worse than death, if that means that he stays alive? Because I know, I would. This doesn't necessarily have to end with his death, as long as he pays a horrendous price for the pain he caused, as long as he does not get away without a permanent, grievous punishment. Perhaps a fate worse than death for him could be an arrangement we are both satisfied with.
I hate to argue with good friends.
Well, I on the other hand love to argue with good friends, especially about topics I am passionate about. Few things are more fun than a heated debate between friends. If I am friends with the person I debate with, it is a lot easier for me to consider their arguments. Just... not in this particular case. When it comes to Luke, I simply can't accept other arguments. What he did hit me too much. Though, I am still glad we found an agreement. Now I just hope that we won't be the only ones in favour of justice.
If its self defense im ok with Owen dying if theres no other alternative.
No. If for example it was between Rachel and Luke (say killing … moreLuke cures Rachel of terminal one hour cancer) you had me at no other way. The choice makes itself. Same with basically any character vs Luke or Owen. I don't want to kill the because i don't believe in it. But if we come between them and anyone else the choice is clear.
Im glad we reached a consensus I hate to argue with good friends.
No. If for example it was between Rachel and Luke (say killing Luke cures Rachel of terminal one hour cancer) you had me at no other way. Th… moree choice makes itself. Same with basically any character vs Luke or Owen. I don't want to kill the because i don't believe in it. But if we come between them and anyone else the choice is clear.
Perhaps I should have worded this question differently. What I meant was, do you simply want to save Luke's life, or do you want to prevent any kind of harm from befalling him? That is a big difference after all. What I meant to ask was, would you be okay with giving him a fate worse than death, if that means that he stays alive? Because I know, I would. This doesn't necessarily have to end with his death, as long as he pays a horrendous price for the pain he caused, as long as he does not get away without a permanent, grievous punishment. Perhaps a fate worse than death for him could be an arrangement we … [view original content]
While i don't normally condone fates worse than death if it comes in between. I 100% pro horrible non lethal punisment.
Then we found a consensus, because I am 100% in favour of a horrible non-lethal punishment as well. It has to be a really horrible punishment of course and undoubtedly worse than death. In general, death is often well-deserved, but always so final. I don't want Luke to die, I want him to suffer and I want him to pay the highest price possible. Similarly, I'd love to see Owen paying such a price as well, but punishing Luke is my priority. If there is a way to give Owen what he deserves as well, then I'm all in for it, but Luke is the main villain here and the one who deserves the worst fate imaginable.
Also, I realized I have something to say about your previous response, where you said that if killing Luke would save someone elses life, you would definitely kill Luke for sure. You know, this one:
No. If for example it was between Rachel and Luke (say killing Luke cures Rachel of terminal one hour cancer) you had me at no other way. The choice makes itself. Same with basically any character vs Luke or Owen. I don't want to kill the because i don't believe in it. But if we come between them and anyone else the choice is clear.
Keep this in mind, technically this is such a choice. I mean, consider this: Luke took Rachel's little brother and especially, he took Clive's son. Do you think they could ever just continue with their lives as long as they know that this murderous piece of shit never got the punishment he deserves? I know, I couldn't. My hatred is only amplified from the fact that I emphasize with them and realize that, in their position, I could never move on from this terrible loss as long as the guy responsible hasn't been brought to real justice. Sure, Rachel has a new boyfriend, but as I said before, I highly assume that dating Henry is just some sort of coping mechanism for her, to deal with the loneliness. Maybe she can develop real feelings for Henry in time, but certainly not as long as this whole fucking mess with her brother's killer hasn't been dealt with. And while Rachel has at least a new relationship, as shallow as it most likely is, Clive has no one now that Luke took his son. To make things worse, Clive's wife already lost her live while she gave birth to Alexander, which means that she now died in vain. This thought only adds to the endless hate I feel for Luke, because it makes Alex' death even more tragic and even more fucking frustrating on top. The fact that Clive's life is utterly ruined as well, it makes me seething with nearly uncontrollable hatred against Luke. See it from his perspective. Do you really think he could ever move on as long as Luke hasn't paid for what he did? He is most likely going to die from a broken heart either way very soon, but if Luke's sheer presence already causes that much pain for me, imagine how much worse it has to be for Clive and Rachel. I doubt they, and I as well, can truly move on as long as Luke hasn't paid a horrible price for taking Alex away from them. So you see, this basically is a choice between saving Luke's life or saving the lives of Rachel and Clive.
While i don't normally condone fates worse than death if it comes in between. I 100% pro horrible non lethal punisment.
Yeah i love these too. Just not when it gets too personal .
While i don't normally condone fates worse than death if it comes in between. I 100% pro horrible non lethal punisment.
Then we foun… mored a consensus, because I am 100% in favour of a horrible non-lethal punishment as well. It has to be a really horrible punishment of course and undoubtedly worse than death. In general, death is often well-deserved, but always so final. I don't want Luke to die, I want him to suffer and I want him to pay the highest price possible. Similarly, I'd love to see Owen paying such a price as well, but punishing Luke is my priority. If there is a way to give Owen what he deserves as well, then I'm all in for it, but Luke is the main villain here and the one who deserves the worst fate imaginable.
Also, I realized I have something to say about your previous response, where you said that if killing Luke would save someone elses life, you would definitely kill Luke for sure. You know, this one:
No. If for … [view original content]
While she lives she has a chance of finding happyness regarless of Luke's status.
See, this is where I strongly disagree. Even with Rachel, who is young and tough as nails, I see moving on as an almost impossible task as long as Luke hasn't been dealt with. If I interpret her character the same way Hope does, then I doubt she could ever move on as well, as long as the monster that murdered her little brother hasn't gotten the deserved punishment. I know, in her position, I couldn't. Even afterwards, it will be a painfully hard task. And I highly doubt that Clive, who is an old man with already fragile health, could ever move on in the slightest. Things must be even worse for him, considering how much he lost. He already has heart problems, so the grief from Alex' death, the hole this must have left in his life, all of this is very likely to kill him sooner or later. Maybe it could get him some closure if Luke would get a well-deserved horrible punishment. It is a far shot, but worth a try in my eyes. For me, sparing Luke equals loosing Clive and likely Rachel as well, because it will ruin their lives even more. It would also mean that Alex' memory would be utterly degraded. He deserves more than that. He deserves to be avenged.
But anyway im happy we agree
Yes. I can't put into words how much this means to me. This whole mess is already horrible enough and it gets even more horrible the more thought I put into this (for example, I only realized the stuff with Clive's wife about an hour ago), so it is a huge relief that I can count on your support. I can only hope that there will be justice and that this fucking mess won't get even more heartbreaking and frustrating because it already is unbearable for me. But whatever outcome there might be, I hope it will be soon. I've been waiting far too long for justice. Anyways, once again, I can only thank you. Hopefully, the rest, or at least a majority, will support me as well, although my hopes sadly are quite glum when it comes to this.
It's nothing personal Liquid, but I can't help but feel like you're exaggerating.
As for Luke, he's not completely innocent sure but he's still human. After what he went through and all the drugs in his system he wasn't exactly in his right mind. He didn't kill Alex 'just because' he saw him as a threat and acted on instinct. I'm not saying this justifys it but the way I see it, Luke definitely doesn't deserve death (or any other horrible fate you might want for him)
So... it took me a while to calm down enough to even write this comment/rant-hybrid, because my first emotion after reading this part has be… moreen rabid rage, close to my breaking point. I haven't been that angry in a very long time. To be honest, I'm obviously still madly in anger and I will continue to be so until Luke got the painful death he deserves. But well... I see I have been right with some of my theories, which would have been a pleasant surprise under any other circumstance. This time, surrounding the whole fucking mess that is Alex' death, there can be no pleasant surprises, although it is refreshing that I can finally stop holding back in my hatred. It really was Luke, he is exactly the monster I always claimed him to be, he really has no excuse, nothing that speaks in his favour, he really deserves my hatred and to make things even better, or perhaps, even worse, this bastard Owen is responsible as well! Oh, these fuckers... these … [view original content]
I think he just can't see Luke in positive or victimizing light. He keeps saying Luke deserved to be tortured........before he did anything. This makes me think he sees Luke as a negative force in creation, and thanks every 5th grader who beat him up years ago. Its intense hated for the character itself.
And yes Liquid i know you will probably reply : "But he IS a negative force in creation. Everything's better when hes dead and things would be beyond amazing if he never existed. And i think that doctor who dropped him as a baby and almost broke his skull deserves a medal"
It's nothing personal Liquid, but I can't help but feel like you're exaggerating.
As for Luke, he's not completely innocent sure but he's… more still human. After what he went through and all the drugs in his system he wasn't exactly in his right mind. He didn't kill Alex 'just because' he saw him as a threat and acted on instinct. I'm not saying this justifys it but the way I see it, Luke definitely doesn't deserve death (or any other horrible fate you might want for him)
Surely it must be easy to stay neutral in your case. I think I said earlier that I would probably see things similar to you if I wouldn't be so involved in this whole case. Just like Lord, let me ask you a couple of question: Just think about it, how would you feel if instead of Alex, one of your characters would have ended up getting this utterly horrifying and heartbreaking death? And then tell me, what exactly are you expecting me to do in this frustrating mess? Shall I forgive this complete monster that caused me so much grief? Shall I stand back and let him live a happy life, knowing fully well that at least the lives of Alex and Clive are destroyed because of his actions? What kind of punishment do you see fit for him, if you see neither death or any other horrible fate are acceptable? And finally, I can only ask you, why are you so hellbent on defending this murderer? After all the grief he caused me, there can be no excuse and no extenuating circumstances. For months now, I have been seething with anger and I simply can't swallow it. The way I see it, Luke is a horrible character, in every sense of the word and responsible for causing me a lot of sorrow. The mere thought of him getting an even remotely happy ending, while his victim and his victims whole family have their lives ruined because of him, this thought is literally unbearable for me. As long as he is alive, I simply can't stop hating him, so once again, what do you expect me to do?
It's nothing personal Liquid, but I can't help but feel like you're exaggerating.
As for Luke, he's not completely innocent sure but he's… more still human. After what he went through and all the drugs in his system he wasn't exactly in his right mind. He didn't kill Alex 'just because' he saw him as a threat and acted on instinct. I'm not saying this justifys it but the way I see it, Luke definitely doesn't deserve death (or any other horrible fate you might want for him)
Jeez liqiud making me regret submitting Luke and by the way I just made him a normal teenager with a few issues nothing that big. (Besides one dark secret which I'm pretty sure was revealed) so I guess it was Hope's idea to make him this way but I don't see him any where near as bad as you make him out to be like comparing him to Hitler or Satan that's pretty far. I surely think prison is all Luke deserves because people have gotten away with far worse crimes.
Surely it must be easy to stay neutral in your case. I think I said earlier that I would probably see things similar to you if I wouldn't be… more so involved in this whole case. Just like Lord, let me ask you a couple of question: Just think about it, how would you feel if instead of Alex, one of your characters would have ended up getting this utterly horrifying and heartbreaking death? And then tell me, what exactly are you expecting me to do in this frustrating mess? Shall I forgive this complete monster that caused me so much grief? Shall I stand back and let him live a happy life, knowing fully well that at least the lives of Alex and Clive are destroyed because of his actions? What kind of punishment do you see fit for him, if you see neither death or any other horrible fate are acceptable? And finally, I can only ask you, why are you so hellbent on defending this murderer? After all the grief he caused me, there can be no excuse and no exte… [view original content]
Well, first of all, I'm not sure if this is necessary, but I think I should clarify, just in case, I don't mean to offend you in any way, shape or form. You are great, one of the best in this forum and I have absolutely no beef with you. It's just Luke who has my neverending hatred. I am sorry that one of your characters is the target of my wrath and I am sorry for the fact that I will never back down in my hatred as long as he hasn't gotten a satisfying punishment. As much as I despise Luke, as much as I despise his role in the story, as much as his mere presence makes me enjoy this story less and as much as I probably sound livid with anger, these are only problems I have with Luke. Nothing more, you know that, right?
Now, let me try to explain the source of my problem. I don't know how you planned this person, monster, thing, whatever you want to see him as to be, but I guess he turned out a lot different from what you thought. The fact is, when he murdered Alex, he incurred my neverending, bottomless wrath. The moment he pulled the trigger, he stopped being just a normal teenager with a few issues, at least in my eyes. As much as it frustrates and annoys me that others see him as a human being, perhaps even as a victim, for me he is something much worse and he will always stay something much worse. He alone is the source of quite a lot of anger for me and he alone made many parts of this story simply frustrating to read and even more frustrating to comment on. This in turn causes me even more grief, because I love this story very much and I want to enjoy it despite the helpless frustration this character gave me. In my eyes, the most horrible torture the human mind could imagine would still be almost too kind for Luke, but the thought that he could get away without having his live ruined in a similar way the lives of my dear Carsons are ruined because of him, this thought makes me hate him even more. And let's be honest here, it all looks like he's going to get away with it.
Most of my hatred for him comes not only from the fact that he murdered a character I was looking forward for very much, before said character even appeared in the story, but also from the fact that the story seems to develop into a way where I am afraid that he might get away with all the grief he caused me, maybe even get some obnoxious redemption storyline or an otherwise remotely happy ending, which would just twist the knife even deeper. What makes it even worse is that everyone seems to expect of me to see him as the victim for no fucking reason and that everyone seems to be shocked that I want vengeance. Luke is no victim for me and he stopped being a teenager and even a human being in my eyes. He is nothing but a source of anger, frustration and sorrow to me and I definitely don't see him as anything else but a disgusting inhuman monster. Because of the fact that the damage his actions did to the lives of Alex, Clive and Rachel can never be repaired, he can never become anything else but a sheer source of bad emotions for me, someone whose continuing presence in this story is already enough to stir my rage. He makes me sick and I want him to pay for the grief he caused. I have build up this frustration and hatred for too long and now I simply need to have payback.
Jeez liqiud making me regret submitting Luke and by the way I just made him a normal teenager with a few issues nothing that big. (Besides o… morene dark secret which I'm pretty sure was revealed) so I guess it was Hope's idea to make him this way but I don't see him any where near as bad as you make him out to be like comparing him to Hitler or Satan that's pretty far. I surely think prison is all Luke deserves because people have gotten away with far worse crimes.
Well, first of all, I'm not sure if this is necessary, but I think I should clarify, just in case, I don't mean to offend you in any way, sh… moreape or form. You are great, one of the best in this forum and I have absolutely no beef with you. It's just Luke who has my neverending hatred. I am sorry that one of your characters is the target of my wrath and I am sorry for the fact that I will never back down in my hatred as long as he hasn't gotten a satisfying punishment. As much as I despise Luke, as much as I despise his role in the story, as much as his mere presence makes me enjoy this story less and as much as I probably sound livid with anger, these are only problems I have with Luke. Nothing more, you know that, right?
Now, let me try to explain the source of my problem. I don't know how you planned this person, monster, thing, whatever you want to see him as to be, but I guess he turned out a lot different from what you thought. The fact… [view original content]
Thank you. You are right, to be honest I want more than just his death. I want a real punishment for him. Alex got a painful and humiliating death, so his killer should get something much worse. An eye for an eye is not a punishment, it's an equation. Punishment should go further and it should always be worse than the crime. How else could it be a punishment? At the same time, I can fully understand that Hope is probably not willing to write such a thing. I myself would certainly feel uncomfortable if I had to write down the punishment Luke would deserve. Because of this, even though I will try my best to give him a fate worse than death, I most likely have to settle simply for his death, if I even get this little victory. I just hope he dies soon and without dignity. I also hope there will be at least the chance for me to get my vengeance without ruining the live of one of my other characters even further, which sadly has been something Hope has hinted at and which is something I won't stand for under any circumstance. That would be the only way to make this scenario even worse for me.
Surely it must be easy to stay neutral in your case. I think I said earlier that I would probably see things similar to you if I wouldn't be… more so involved in this whole case. Just like Lord, let me ask you a couple of question: Just think about it, how would you feel if instead of Alex, one of your characters would have ended up getting this utterly horrifying and heartbreaking death? And then tell me, what exactly are you expecting me to do in this frustrating mess? Shall I forgive this complete monster that caused me so much grief? Shall I stand back and let him live a happy life, knowing fully well that at least the lives of Alex and Clive are destroyed because of his actions? What kind of punishment do you see fit for him, if you see neither death or any other horrible fate are acceptable? And finally, I can only ask you, why are you so hellbent on defending this murderer? After all the grief he caused me, there can be no excuse and no exte… [view original content]
I think he just can't see Luke in positive or victimizing light.
You are right. I can't and I won't. Seeing him in a positive or victimizing light means even further degrading and humiliating the real victim here, which is Alex and not Luke. After the circumstances of Alex' death have been bad enough already, taking vengeance on Luke is pretty much all that is left. His actions are inexcusable, not even justifiable in the slightest and the mere attempt is inappropriate. There is nothing positive and victimizing about him and there never will be.
I think he just can't see Luke in positive or victimizing light. He keeps saying Luke deserved to be tortured........before he did anythi… moreng. This makes me think he sees Luke as a negative force in creation, and thanks every 5th grader who beat him up years ago. Its intense hated for the character itself.
And yes Liquid i know you will probably reply : "But he IS a negative force in creation. Everything's better when hes dead and things would be beyond amazing if he never existed. And i think that doctor who dropped him as a baby and almost broke his skull deserves a medal"
How did i know you would say that? Magic!
I also disagree but it's clear Liquid has made his mind up and whatever argument you have about luke not being evil Liquid will make a counter as to why he is evil.
Just please calm down? I feel like you're being a bit aggressive with me.
I don't 'expect' you to do anything, I just disagree with the way you're seeing things.
I also disagree but it's clear Liquid has made his mind up and whatever argument you have about luke not being evil Liquid will make a counter as to why he is evil.
Just like with Xsensus, I probably should clarify that am not aggressive with you and that you are also among the greatest people in this forum. Hell, I even respect your views, in a certain way and if I wouldn't be so personally involved, I would even share them. But this time I can't stay neutral and objective. If I sound aggressive and pissed, then this is simply the result of the immense frustration that has bottled up in me ever since Chapter 1 ended. The only one I am angry at is Luke, but the total frustration that this mess gave me makes me undeniably really pissed. At the same time, let me just add, I always enjoy our debate, just as I enjoy debating with Lord, XSensus and the others, because it gives me a chance to express my frustration. I really am not angry at you and I hope that is clear.
I'm just honestly asking you, out of curiosity, what I should do in this situation, in your opinion. You say I'm overreacting. Well, then what should I do? What would you do in my situation? Luke caused me a whole lot of grief and still you are arguing that he should get away with it. Should I just ignore what he did? Should I just stand back while everyone argues what a poor victim he is? How exactly should I let go of this utterly bottomless hatred I have for him if I don't even get the chance to make him pay?
Just please calm down? I feel like you're being a bit aggressive with me.
I don't 'expect' you to do anything, I just disagree with the way you're seeing things.
you are also among the greatest people in this forum.
Oh stop, you'll make me blush ^_^
I completely understand you hating him and wanting him to die (even though I disagree). What I don't understand is calling him a monster, not even human, and saying he deserves to suffer.
Something I've hesitated to suggest is that Alex would've done the same thing if thier roles were reversed. Do you disagree?
Just like with Xsensus, I probably should clarify that am not aggressive with you and that you are also among the greatest people in this fo… morerum. Hell, I even respect your views, in a certain way and if I wouldn't be so personally involved, I would even share them. But this time I can't stay neutral and objective. If I sound aggressive and pissed, then this is simply the result of the immense frustration that has bottled up in me ever since Chapter 1 ended. The only one I am angry at is Luke, but the total frustration that this mess gave me makes me undeniably really pissed. At the same time, let me just add, I always enjoy our debate, just as I enjoy debating with Lord, XSensus and the others, because it gives me a chance to express my frustration. I really am not angry at you and I hope that is clear.
I'm just honestly asking you, out of curiosity, what I should do in this situation, in your opinion. You say I'm overreacting. Well, then w… [view original content]
Well first I'd find out why I have all this anger targeting luke which in your case I assume it was because he killed one of your characters who had no lines or development before his death, you probably put a fair bit of work into writing Alex so I think this is what started the hatred for luke as at the time of Alexs death we didn't know who the killer was you thought it was luke and it turned out it was which would have built up more anger and frustation. I'll guess you always found him frustrating.
Luke isn't innocent but I don't think he is as guilty as you think but still he should be punished but if it comes to his death he would not deserve a torturous death because no one deserves that.
I don't know what I would do if it was me in your situation because when I get angry or frustrated I find it hard to calm down, but Liquid to be honest I barely know you so what could for me might not work for you.
Just like with Xsensus, I probably should clarify that am not aggressive with you and that you are also among the greatest people in this fo… morerum. Hell, I even respect your views, in a certain way and if I wouldn't be so personally involved, I would even share them. But this time I can't stay neutral and objective. If I sound aggressive and pissed, then this is simply the result of the immense frustration that has bottled up in me ever since Chapter 1 ended. The only one I am angry at is Luke, but the total frustration that this mess gave me makes me undeniably really pissed. At the same time, let me just add, I always enjoy our debate, just as I enjoy debating with Lord, XSensus and the others, because it gives me a chance to express my frustration. I really am not angry at you and I hope that is clear.
I'm just honestly asking you, out of curiosity, what I should do in this situation, in your opinion. You say I'm overreacting. Well, then w… [view original content]
What I don't understand is calling him a monster, not even human, and saying he deserves to suffer.
I think I said this way earlier, back when I started to get really vicious in my hatred, he is all of these things in my eyes alone. In turn, I have problems understanding why the rest doesn't see him as an inhuman monster after all he did to me. All he did in the story was causing me plenty of negative emotions, mostly hatred, sorrow and esepcially, huge amounts of frustration. While it has been fairly tame at first (also a result of me being in some sort of shock and denial for most of Chapter 2), this frustration has bottled up and increased with every part, while the hints grew stronger that Luke is the killer. The circumstances of Alex' death make it simply impossible for Luke to be anything else in my eyes but the being that is at fault for this. And by all means, such a being, which only caused me grief, can only be a monster in my eyes. I know, he hasn't caused these strong negative emotions in anyone else and I don't want to force anyone to see him as the inhuman monster he is in my eyes. I just want to have the chance to let this bottled up anger out, by getting the chance to make him pay for all of this. After how frustrating all of this was, I just want satisfaction. As a result, I probably sound quite angry when arguing with someone who is likely to prevent me from getting this satisfaction. In turn, even thinking about the fact that things could become even more horrible makes me even more frustrated and the more frustrated I become, the worse my opinion about Luke becomes, because he is the only one responsible and the only one I can direct my hatred at. This cycle can only be broken once Luke got either death or something worse.
Something I've hesitated to suggest is that Alex would've done the same thing if thier roles were reversed. Do you disagree?
I don't disagree. I simply don't know what would have happened if their roles would have been reversed. One thing I am almost sure of is, Alex would have shot Owen on spot instead of leaving someone as dangerous as him behind. If he would have met Luke afterwards, well, I don't know what would have happened. It is certainly possible that Alex would have done the same and shot Luke, although I think it is unlikely. If their roles would have been reversed, I could fully understand and accept if xSensus would see him as a monster that has to die. Even though he is one of my characters, I would stop liking him and wouldn't defend him. I wouldn't share this intense hatred, but I would say nothing in his favour and wouldn't mourn for him if he dies. Save to say though, I would be a lot calmer, more objective and less frustrated about all of this. I don't know how else I would react, although it is likely that I would ultimately give up on Alex, so that he can be judged and punished by someone else.
you are also among the greatest people in this forum.
Oh stop, you'll make me blush ^_^
I completely understand you hating him an… mored wanting him to die (even though I disagree). What I don't understand is calling him a monster, not even human, and saying he deserves to suffer.
Something I've hesitated to suggest is that Alex would've done the same thing if thier roles were reversed. Do you disagree?
What you say is absolutely true. At least, all of it aside from the second paragraph, where I naturally disagree severely and wholeheartedly. Luke deserves to feel a thousand times the pain Alex felt and which Clive and Rachel have to feel for the rest of their lives. However, while I was away yesterday, I had a thought that made me realize just why I hate Luke so much more than every other character I ever read about, even more than people like Ramsay from the Ice and Fire books and why I see him as so much worse and frustrating than these other characters, up to the point where I am literally revolted by his mere presence. It's the fact that, when these characters do something so inexcusably terrible, like, for example, Luke murdering Alex, I can usually be sure that they will be treated as the villains they are, that they will get their well-deserved comeuppance sooner or later and that I will get my satisfaction with their death.
With Luke however, the biggest part of my frustration and the resulting anger I have for him comes from the fact that he has a very big chance to actually get away with his actions, or that he will at least stick around for an undeservedly long time, a literal cancer in this otherwise great story. Luke is a villain, he's actually the villain of this story and it goes against my deepest convictions that a villain as horrible as him should get a happy ending. Owen for example, who is just like Luke an obnoxious sociopath and an irredeemable monster, is more likely to get his comeuppance instead of getting away. I'm sure that before this story ends, someone is going to shoot him in the head for his involvement in Alex' death, which helps keeping the immense hatred I have for him in line. But the thought that makes me really hate Luke is that he actually is more likely to never get a truly satisfying punishment. In the worst case, I'm afraid that pursuing my well-deserved vengeance could ruin the lives of my other characters even more, if that is even possible, which in turn is a thought that makes this whole fucking mess even more frustrating for me and increases my anger at this monster even further every time I even think about it. And that is the biggest reason for why my hatred for Luke is so much bigger than my hatred for other characters, like this insignificant vermin Owen or this obnoxious rapist Pittman. At least they have a very big chance to actually get a satisfying death, you know what I mean?
Well first I'd find out why I have all this anger targeting luke which in your case I assume it was because he killed one of your characters… more who had no lines or development before his death, you probably put a fair bit of work into writing Alex so I think this is what started the hatred for luke as at the time of Alexs death we didn't know who the killer was you thought it was luke and it turned out it was which would have built up more anger and frustation. I'll guess you always found him frustrating.
Luke isn't innocent but I don't think he is as guilty as you think but still he should be punished but if it comes to his death he would not deserve a torturous death because no one deserves that.
I don't know what I would do if it was me in your situation because when I get angry or frustrated I find it hard to calm down, but Liquid to be honest I barely know you so what could for me might not work for you.
Clive laid in the hospital bed with different machinery monitoring his health. He was barely conscious, and the painkillers and other medicines made him appear dazed. He responded to Rachel entering the room by opening his eyes slightly wider though they were still merely slits that betrayed their once welcoming amber glow.
“Rachel,” he mumbled, following her with his eyes with difficulty as she approached the side of his bed until he was forced to turn his neck. “Have they given me the painkillers? Have they taken effect?”
“Yes, both.” She hesitated to ask: “Are you still hurting?”
“I-- I don’t think so,” he said. “I feel numb, though. Just numb.”
Rachel’s brow furrowed and she bit her lip. “I’ve seen your doctor’s records. You’ve been seeing a private physician and doctor since you moved to Silicon. Your heart condition is much worse than you’ve let on, isn’t it?”
He frowned deeply. “Yes. But-- but I didn’t tell you because I didn’t-- I didn’t want to worry you… or Alex.”
There was a commotion down the hall and Rachel heard the hurried footsteps of several people and some shouting. She was worried if not a bit curious, wondering what could be happening.
Clive pulled her away from the thought when he mumbled a question. “When is he going to get here?”
Rachel instantly looked back to her father. “Who?” she asked, confused.
“Alexander,” he said with an innocent tone amidst the stupor. “When will he get here?”
Rachel bit her lip even harder. The heart attack, coupled with the medicine and whatever other factors were at played, messed with his mind, making him forget. For a moment, she thought about letting him believe her younger brother was still alive but felt apprehensive. Based on the documents, his state of health was in clear decline. The tests relating to his most recent hospitalization were still being processed. It was clear, to one extent or another, that the news wasn’t going to be good. Doubts surfaced in her mind and she wondered if leading him to believe his son was alive in his final days would be cruel or merciful; she herself felt guilty just considering it. But would reminding him of Alex's death also remind him of his shortcomings as a father? Would that be worse?
Chapter Five: Empathy (Part 1)
Rachel Carson
Clive laid in the hospital bed with different machinery monitoring his health. He was bar… moreely conscious, and the painkillers and other medicines made him appear dazed. He responded to Rachel entering the room by opening his eyes slightly wider though they were still merely slits that betrayed their once welcoming amber glow.
“Rachel,” he mumbled, following her with his eyes with difficulty as she approached the side of his bed until he was forced to turn his neck. “Have they given me the painkillers? Have they taken effect?”
“Yes, both.” She hesitated to ask: “Are you still hurting?”
“I-- I don’t think so,” he said. “I feel numb, though. Just numb.”
Rachel’s brow furrowed and she bit her lip. “I’ve seen your doctor’s records. You’ve been seeing a private physician and doctor since you moved to Silicon. Your heart condition is much worse than you’ve let on, isn’t it?”
He frowned … [view original content]
Damn it, Clive. I knew it was bad, but I had no idea just how much worse his condition truly is. Just so you know, I'm blaming this one on Luke as well, just like I'm fully blaming him for Sam. If it weren't for the added emotional stress, I highly doubt Clive would have gotten this heartattack anytime soon. He has also been visited by Luke's presence in Chapter 3, if I remember correctly, immediately before he had his heartattack, so I bet this is related. So yeah, I guess now I want Luke to suffer more than ever. Not only for Alex, but for Clive as well. I just deeply hope his mistake of an existence won't result in Rachel getting her live ruined even further on top of what he already did.
[Lead him to believe Alexander is still alive.]
I mean, come on. The man is obviously dying. Have a heart and make his final days easier. Reminding him of Alex' death will only make things more painful for him. However, the mere fact that this is a choice, that Rachel has to either tell her dying father about his murdered son or lie to him, this choice proves me right about everything I said about Luke. This worthless and useless piece of subhuman shit, whose sheer existence is a cancerous mistake, has as of now murdered one of my characters actively and is about to murder another one passively with his actions, so I hope the hate I have for him is a bit more understandable. Perhaps he is going to do something terrible to Rachel as well, beyond the fact that he basically killed her entire family. Ah fuck it. Never before has a painful death been more appropriate than in the case of Luke fucking Page. As for Clive, he deserved better, just like Alex. He does not deserve to be confronted with his sons death in his final days. I know how bad this is for me, so I can imagine how much worse this must be for him. At the same time, Rachel does not deserve having to lie to her dying father, but in this case, she just has to do whats best for Clive. God damn it... all just because of this one monster. He has to die for what he did to my dear Carsons, he has to suffer. I hope he will die soon and screaming, feeling a thousand times the pain he caused me and them. First and foremost though, I am now deeply concerned that Rachel could snap as a result of her whole family being murdered by this one bastard. That would be the only thing even worse than Luke getting away with his actions. Maybe he could at least not utterly ruin her live, like he ruined the lives of Clive and Alex.
Chapter Five: Empathy (Part 1)
Rachel Carson
Clive laid in the hospital bed with different machinery monitoring his health. He was bar… moreely conscious, and the painkillers and other medicines made him appear dazed. He responded to Rachel entering the room by opening his eyes slightly wider though they were still merely slits that betrayed their once welcoming amber glow.
“Rachel,” he mumbled, following her with his eyes with difficulty as she approached the side of his bed until he was forced to turn his neck. “Have they given me the painkillers? Have they taken effect?”
“Yes, both.” She hesitated to ask: “Are you still hurting?”
“I-- I don’t think so,” he said. “I feel numb, though. Just numb.”
Rachel’s brow furrowed and she bit her lip. “I’ve seen your doctor’s records. You’ve been seeing a private physician and doctor since you moved to Silicon. Your heart condition is much worse than you’ve let on, isn’t it?”
He frowned … [view original content]
Chapter Five: Empathy (Part 1)
Rachel Carson
Clive laid in the hospital bed with different machinery monitoring his health. He was bar… moreely conscious, and the painkillers and other medicines made him appear dazed. He responded to Rachel entering the room by opening his eyes slightly wider though they were still merely slits that betrayed their once welcoming amber glow.
“Rachel,” he mumbled, following her with his eyes with difficulty as she approached the side of his bed until he was forced to turn his neck. “Have they given me the painkillers? Have they taken effect?”
“Yes, both.” She hesitated to ask: “Are you still hurting?”
“I-- I don’t think so,” he said. “I feel numb, though. Just numb.”
Rachel’s brow furrowed and she bit her lip. “I’ve seen your doctor’s records. You’ve been seeing a private physician and doctor since you moved to Silicon. Your heart condition is much worse than you’ve let on, isn’t it?”
He frowned … [view original content]
Chapter Five: Empathy (Part 1)
Rachel Carson
Clive laid in the hospital bed with different machinery monitoring his health. He was bar… moreely conscious, and the painkillers and other medicines made him appear dazed. He responded to Rachel entering the room by opening his eyes slightly wider though they were still merely slits that betrayed their once welcoming amber glow.
“Rachel,” he mumbled, following her with his eyes with difficulty as she approached the side of his bed until he was forced to turn his neck. “Have they given me the painkillers? Have they taken effect?”
“Yes, both.” She hesitated to ask: “Are you still hurting?”
“I-- I don’t think so,” he said. “I feel numb, though. Just numb.”
Rachel’s brow furrowed and she bit her lip. “I’ve seen your doctor’s records. You’ve been seeing a private physician and doctor since you moved to Silicon. Your heart condition is much worse than you’ve let on, isn’t it?”
He frowned … [view original content]
Chapter Five: Empathy (Part 1)
Rachel Carson
Clive laid in the hospital bed with different machinery monitoring his health. He was bar… moreely conscious, and the painkillers and other medicines made him appear dazed. He responded to Rachel entering the room by opening his eyes slightly wider though they were still merely slits that betrayed their once welcoming amber glow.
“Rachel,” he mumbled, following her with his eyes with difficulty as she approached the side of his bed until he was forced to turn his neck. “Have they given me the painkillers? Have they taken effect?”
“Yes, both.” She hesitated to ask: “Are you still hurting?”
“I-- I don’t think so,” he said. “I feel numb, though. Just numb.”
Rachel’s brow furrowed and she bit her lip. “I’ve seen your doctor’s records. You’ve been seeing a private physician and doctor since you moved to Silicon. Your heart condition is much worse than you’ve let on, isn’t it?”
He frowned … [view original content]
I dont know if this is the morally good choice. There are arguments for both sides but I guess it sounds like the more merciful choice to let him live his final days without knowing that his son is dead. But I totally know that someone who is in hospital because he had a heart attack shouldnt learn about the death of his son. I guess it played a big role in his first heart attack. Learning about it again right after the first heart attack could kill him. Lying could make his live a little bit longer and happier so I choose this.
Chapter Five: Empathy (Part 1)
Rachel Carson
Clive laid in the hospital bed with different machinery monitoring his health. He was bar… moreely conscious, and the painkillers and other medicines made him appear dazed. He responded to Rachel entering the room by opening his eyes slightly wider though they were still merely slits that betrayed their once welcoming amber glow.
“Rachel,” he mumbled, following her with his eyes with difficulty as she approached the side of his bed until he was forced to turn his neck. “Have they given me the painkillers? Have they taken effect?”
“Yes, both.” She hesitated to ask: “Are you still hurting?”
“I-- I don’t think so,” he said. “I feel numb, though. Just numb.”
Rachel’s brow furrowed and she bit her lip. “I’ve seen your doctor’s records. You’ve been seeing a private physician and doctor since you moved to Silicon. Your heart condition is much worse than you’ve let on, isn’t it?”
He frowned … [view original content]
My god, why haven't I realized this earlier? Revealing the truth could indeed kill him, couldn't it? Damn it... It has actually been my first impulse to vote to correct him gently and now I am incredibly glad that I haven't done it. Thank you for bringing this up, bro. Luckily, it looks like this choice is winning, or else I would be even more concerned for Clive. Though I think Rachel's prognosis made it clear that he is going to die either way very soon, thanks to Luke.
By the way and while I'm at it: I don't think I ever asked you and since I already know the different positions of a few readers, especially Lord's and Agent's, I am quite curious. What is your personal opinion on this repulsive mixture of Kim Jong-Un and Justin Bieber, the soon-to-be-dead subhuman known as Luke?
[Lead him to believe Alexander is still alive.]
I dont know if this is the morally good choice. There are arguments for both sides but I … moreguess it sounds like the more merciful choice to let him live his final days without knowing that his son is dead. But I totally know that someone who is in hospital because he had a heart attack shouldnt learn about the death of his son. I guess it played a big role in his first heart attack. Learning about it again right after the first heart attack could kill him. Lying could make his live a little bit longer and happier so I choose this.
About Luke, interestin question! He never did anything to my character so I dont have a reason to hate him as much as you do. I try to stay neutral in this discussion. But I understand you and I also dont like him! He is my second least favorite character after Owen. In my opinion he is not a monster but he is responsible for many bad things especially to your characters, so I understand why you hate him so much. But I dont think we can fully blame him for Sams death, I think this is more on Owen. Luke is also a bit responsible but not as much as Owen. I think Owen is less responsible for Alexander and Clive which is where you are right to blame Luke. But Owen is also not innocent about them too. About Lukes fate, I dont really care what happens to him. I dont hate him and Im fine with every outcome. Maybe not a happy outcome because I feel like there should be a punishment but I am neutral how much he deserves. He did nothing bad to my character so I think it is not my job to decide his fate. But I know this is very important for you, so I will most likely support you as long as I feel that it doesnt get out of hand. To be clear, I will not support anything that harms people who are not Luke or Owen! And if I support you, you owe me ;P
I want to ask you something in return. You and Hope talked about superpowers earlier. Luke has superpowers. He regenerated his own injuries after the tree fell on him and other things as well. So far we havent seen a limit to what he is able to do. And now I want to ask you what would you do if he heals Clives heart problems with his new powers? How would you feel abotu him?
My god, why haven't I realized this earlier? Revealing the truth could indeed kill him, couldn't it? Damn it... It has actually been my firs… moret impulse to vote to correct him gently and now I am incredibly glad that I haven't done it. Thank you for bringing this up, bro. Luckily, it looks like this choice is winning, or else I would be even more concerned for Clive. Though I think Rachel's prognosis made it clear that he is going to die either way very soon, thanks to Luke.
By the way and while I'm at it: I don't think I ever asked you and since I already know the different positions of a few readers, especially Lord's and Agent's, I am quite curious. What is your personal opinion on this repulsive mixture of Kim Jong-Un and Justin Bieber, the soon-to-be-dead subhuman known as Luke?
Chapter Five: Empathy (Part 1)
Rachel Carson
Clive laid in the hospital bed with different machinery monitoring his health. He was bar… moreely conscious, and the painkillers and other medicines made him appear dazed. He responded to Rachel entering the room by opening his eyes slightly wider though they were still merely slits that betrayed their once welcoming amber glow.
“Rachel,” he mumbled, following her with his eyes with difficulty as she approached the side of his bed until he was forced to turn his neck. “Have they given me the painkillers? Have they taken effect?”
“Yes, both.” She hesitated to ask: “Are you still hurting?”
“I-- I don’t think so,” he said. “I feel numb, though. Just numb.”
Rachel’s brow furrowed and she bit her lip. “I’ve seen your doctor’s records. You’ve been seeing a private physician and doctor since you moved to Silicon. Your heart condition is much worse than you’ve let on, isn’t it?”
He frowned … [view original content]
Comments
Ok first of im sorry man. I know how much this means to you. The hatred it talked about was me trying to de-humanize him and de-victimizing him, hoping that i would see him as a personality lacking redemptionles monster that existence would be better without. I almost got somewhere but then the intense drugging up, the torture, the fact that him killing Alex was more of an animal response than anything willfull or wanted. The fact that if Owen had just picked anyone else he wouldn't have done it. I keep seeing him as a victim in all this (as wrong and disturbed as that might sound)
And to answer your questions:
1) Luke is a student who under the effects of Owens chemicals shot Alex Carson when the latter insulted him with agresion. He also saved two police officers and killed 5 drug dealers, leaving only one injured. He also almost killed one of the police officers he saved by attacking him. His actions are the main catalyst for many events including the discovery of Samantha's powers and her eventual death, Rachel Carson's relationship and Lana Dawking's revealing a pedophile.
2) Nothing
3) Defending? Nope not at all. I'm just not willing to take his life (Existance?). This is solidified by the latest part.
4) Again..............nothing
5) Innocent? No i think hes guilty as hell. I just don't think i can just kill of someone for doing a murder due to outside circumstanses he had absolutely no control over. Especially since i give unconditional mercy to almost every legitament psycho in other stories.
6) Because i personally believe that all life is precious. That taking a life for a life is something hypocritical and unethical. And that giving mercy to others ESPECIALLY when they do not deserve it is the most compassionate and human act.
But philosophy aside i just don't think its right at all. I really tried bro, i did. I kept trying to make him seem worse than demonic and it was working before with the 'he just keeps hurting people' thing but i just can't do it now. I'm trying my best to imagine Owen as a nazi camp psycho doctor to try and help but this just isn't easy.
7) That............to be perfectly honest and judging from past stories. Well i would be pissed as hell like you are, maybe worse but...............................i would'nt want them to die............I believe in life sentences. I always feel satisfied seeing them locked up, unable to do the harm that they so wish. The one time this happened was in Forum of the Dead when Mark's char killed my guy after ONE part something i only got over after many months. If you go back on that part you can see me going insane and randomly being pissed and depressed swearing revenge and stuff. But when Mark died.......i actually felt more pissed. I started to love the character. I just don't want ANYONE to die. I just vote like that.
Anyway you forgot that this part is the first to have Alex alive and with dialouge
Yes, I guess you do know, the anger, the sorrow, the frustration. And I guess you know how much your support would mean to me. I know you are usually one of the most awesome persons in this forum, but this time, I can't help but to feel dissapointment.
He is a personality lacking, redemptionless monster who only did horrible things in his life and whose sheer existence means that he will only continue to cause pain and suffering, at least to me. This whole story would be better if he would have never even existed in the first place. I don't see why you even have to try to de-humanize and de-victimize him, because he is not human and he is not a victim, by any means. He is a monster. A complete fucking monster, who can't be allowed to live. He is like my own, personal Hitler.
Does this change anything? No! This does not make him any better. If anything, it causes me even more grief, to know that it could have been avoided. It is literally what I said earlier, the worst case scenario.
Yes, this sounds wrong and this is wrong, by any definition. Luke is not the victim. He is a murderer, the worst kind of murderer possible. Seeing him as a victim is degrading to the real victim here, which is Alex. What's next, do you want to give him a medal for being such a brave little victim?
No. Just no. This is wrong on so many levels. Luke is a monster posing as a student, a horrible hellspawn, nothing short of a demon, who murdered Alex for no reason at all. The police officers he saved only got into trouble because they were investigating his actions. He almost killed Mitch. His actions eventually caused the death of Samantha. His actions caused Rachel and especially Clive to fall into utter despair and I guess especially in Clive's case, the damage Luke did to his life can never be repaired. In Rachel's case, I doubt she is serious about this relationship either way. If anything, this relationship is her attempt at coping with the loss. On top of that his actions give me immense rage and pain. And finally, what does Luke have to do with Lana and Pittman? It was implied that Lana already heavily thought about going against Pittman way before Alex died. Besides, you make it seem as if anything good came out of Alex' death. It is quite the opposite. Luke's actions only brought pain and anger and as long as he lives, this pain and anger can't get better, not in my case. Only his death can make it better.
And still you are defending him from getting what he deserves. The latest part only made him worse, because it showed that he is worse than I imagined. He took a life, a life that was a hundred times better than his. Why should his life be protected for this? Why should he be rewarded, by being allowed to continue living his life?
He had control over what he did. He shot Alex, he alone did it and he has to die for it! I know, you are infuriatingly merciful to everyone in every other story, but this time it is something else. This time, Luke is the worst being imaginable and yet you still argue that he should live. For what? So that he can continue to cause sorrow with his sheer existence? Don't make me beg, bro. Just this once, I need your support here.
This particular life is not precious at all. Alex' life was precious. Luke on the other hand has literally no worth. And killing him is not hypocritical and unethical, it is the logical consequence of his actions and the only thing that would truly honour his victim. Besides, do you seriously want me to forgive him? To tolerate his cancerous presence in this otherwise great story? I don't give a flying fuck about compassionate and human acts of kindness, not if that means that I will never get a chance to soothe my wrath. I mean, what do you expect me to do?
Owen is like a nazi camp psycho doctor, but his victim is not better in any way. Luke deserved the torture Owen put him through and if anything, Owen has redeeming features for putting Luke through hours of agony. He did something good with this. He still has to die, but unlike Luke, he actually has a redeeming quality.
Well, here's the thing: There won't be a life sentence for him. There will be no punishment for him aside from the one we give him. By law, he would at best get a few months in a juvenile detention centre, before he gets to be a free man again, before he can live the life Alex never had, if he even gets any kind of punishment at all. A life sentence in the worst prison on earth, where he gets brutally raped and horribly tortured and mutilated beyond recognition by every other inmate and the guards for the rest of his life, that would be the sentence he deserves, that would be justice. Since that is not possible, he simply has to die.
So, I see you can emphasize with my situation. But this makes me honestly even more baffled. Since you know your own anger back then, you know how much pain Luke's continuing existence causes me. And now imagine how it would be if everyone would start to argue that Mark's character is a victim here, that he must live and that killing him is wrong, for some stupid reason. I hope you can understand how terrible this absolutely helpless feeling of anger is.
So, are you implying I could start to love Luke's character? The mere suggestion is disgusting! The big difference here is, I know that Mark's characters are usually awesome. Luke however is by far the worst character I have ever encountered. His personality can be summarized with one word: Evil. He is a flat, boring and aggravatingly hateable character. He is completely one-dimensional there is no depth at all to him and no matter what he does, he will always stay a one-dimensional being of pure evil. Are you seriously asking of me to love this flat character who literally caused me so much anger and pain?
So, you rather want me to endure the pain of having this worthless waste of space alive? Is it really worth it for you? You said that Luke is nothing for you, so why do you want to keep him alive, knowing fully well how horrible this is for me?
Contrary to what I previously believed, it only made things worse. Now that I got a hint at what could have been, my hate for Luke got only stronger. At the same time, it made me once again wonder if it was a huge mistake to ever submit him, considering how it literally gave me only negative emotions and how it is likely to continue giving me nothing but frustration and sorrow. Hell, it has been hinted at that even if Luke gets what he deserves, it might result in Rachel's life getting ruined as well, which is just beyond frustrating and disappointing for me.
I already do, oh Emperor Hope. Actually, I'm already way beyond hate when it comes to negative emotions that flow through me. To be honest, after all the thought I put into this case, I would have somewhat hated Luke even if he would have turned out to be completely innocent, simply for being the source of my hatred way before anything got confirmed. Now imagine how much worse I feel about him, now that it turned out that he is guilty. I don't think mere hate even begins to describe how I feel about Luke, but I am not sure if there is a word even stronger than hate, that would allow me to describe how I feel about Luke. Luckily, a quick google search helped me a little bit and gave me access to a few words which I haven't even heard about before. So... Abhor, maybe? Despise? Detest? Abominate? Yes, I abominate Luke, that sounds about right. The mere thought of him is enough to fill me with disgust. In contrast, I "merely" hate Owen. I hope it will end horribly for both of them. I also hope you don't expect me to forgive Luke or to lower my hatred against him, because that won't happen.
On second thought, don't let the hate flow through you too much. Try to keep it cool. I don't want this to escalate into something harmful.
My god. At no point in my existace has someone wanted a character THIS much dead.
Ok you know what ill do it.
But under the conditions we made previously. Also im not killing Owen then.
Would that please you bro? Would that actually make you happy?
Because under those conditions and ONLY those conditions i will do it. If only to end your anger ok.
It won't. Hes just very passionate about this. Were still cool. Don't worry man.
You might be right. In fact, I never wanted a character dead as much as him, not even Zafir and Trevor from Hope's other story. And Hope knows how much I hated these two. I think you could say, I hate Luke more than tumblr hates heterosexuals. I hate him more than Trump hates Mexicans. I hate him more than China hates the Civil Right Movement. I hate him more than North Korea hates South Korea. I hate him more than Canada hates impoliteness. I hate him more than Germany hates untidiness. I hate him more than Godzilla hates japanese cities. I hate him more than the entire GoT-fandom hates Olly. If I had a gun with three bullets and would be in a room with Hitler, Satan and Luke, I would team up with Hitler and Satan to beat Luke to near death and then I would shoot him three times, because fuck Luke. Yeah... I guess you can say I kinda want him dead.
Works for me. I myself won't kill him if doing so obviously ruins Rachel's life. The rest... well, at this point of my hatred, I don't care anymore if my pursuit of vengeance ruins the life of someone, but I can fully understand that you won't kill him if any other life is ruined. And Owen... Owen is a complete scumbag, but Luke is way worse. And unlike Luke, it is almost guaranteed that he will spend a very long time in prison, perhaps even forever. In such a case, I'm satisfied if he survives. Though, what if Owen won't give us a choice? What if he attacks some character and this character has to kill him in self defense? Would you still agree to help me get my vengeance on Luke in such a case? And, let me ask another question: Is it only Luke's life you want to save? Consider for a moment the possibility of a way to make him pay in a way that satisfies even me, but which does not involve his death. Obviously, it would have to be a horrible fate for him so that it soothes my hatred, but it would, in a way, save his life. Would you support such a course of action as well, if it means that Luke can stay alive?
Indeed. Oh yes, indeed. Most likely, at least. As I said, if taking well-deserved vengeance on the monster that killed her little brother would ruin Rachel's life, I wouldn't be happy at all. That would be the only thing worse than Alexander's death in general, because that way, I would be forced to spare Luke's life. But regardless of wether or not such a thing happens, your support in general means a lot. Thank you.
If its self defense im ok with Owen dying if theres no other alternative.
No. If for example it was between Rachel and Luke (say killing Luke cures Rachel of terminal one hour cancer) you had me at no other way. The choice makes itself. Same with basically any character vs Luke or Owen. I don't want to kill the because i don't believe in it. But if we come between them and anyone else the choice is clear.
Im glad we reached a consensus
I hate to argue with good friends.
Perhaps I should have worded this question differently. What I meant was, do you simply want to save Luke's life, or do you want to prevent any kind of harm from befalling him? That is a big difference after all. What I meant to ask was, would you be okay with giving him a fate worse than death, if that means that he stays alive? Because I know, I would. This doesn't necessarily have to end with his death, as long as he pays a horrendous price for the pain he caused, as long as he does not get away without a permanent, grievous punishment. Perhaps a fate worse than death for him could be an arrangement we are both satisfied with.
Well, I on the other hand love to argue with good friends, especially about topics I am passionate about. Few things are more fun than a heated debate between friends. If I am friends with the person I debate with, it is a lot easier for me to consider their arguments. Just... not in this particular case. When it comes to Luke, I simply can't accept other arguments. What he did hit me too much. Though, I am still glad we found an agreement. Now I just hope that we won't be the only ones in favour of justice.
While i don't normally condone fates worse than death if it comes in between. I 100% pro horrible non lethal punisment.
Yeah i love these too. Just not when it gets too personal
.
Then we found a consensus, because I am 100% in favour of a horrible non-lethal punishment as well. It has to be a really horrible punishment of course and undoubtedly worse than death. In general, death is often well-deserved, but always so final. I don't want Luke to die, I want him to suffer and I want him to pay the highest price possible. Similarly, I'd love to see Owen paying such a price as well, but punishing Luke is my priority. If there is a way to give Owen what he deserves as well, then I'm all in for it, but Luke is the main villain here and the one who deserves the worst fate imaginable.
Also, I realized I have something to say about your previous response, where you said that if killing Luke would save someone elses life, you would definitely kill Luke for sure. You know, this one:
Keep this in mind, technically this is such a choice. I mean, consider this: Luke took Rachel's little brother and especially, he took Clive's son. Do you think they could ever just continue with their lives as long as they know that this murderous piece of shit never got the punishment he deserves? I know, I couldn't. My hatred is only amplified from the fact that I emphasize with them and realize that, in their position, I could never move on from this terrible loss as long as the guy responsible hasn't been brought to real justice. Sure, Rachel has a new boyfriend, but as I said before, I highly assume that dating Henry is just some sort of coping mechanism for her, to deal with the loneliness. Maybe she can develop real feelings for Henry in time, but certainly not as long as this whole fucking mess with her brother's killer hasn't been dealt with. And while Rachel has at least a new relationship, as shallow as it most likely is, Clive has no one now that Luke took his son. To make things worse, Clive's wife already lost her live while she gave birth to Alexander, which means that she now died in vain. This thought only adds to the endless hate I feel for Luke, because it makes Alex' death even more tragic and even more fucking frustrating on top. The fact that Clive's life is utterly ruined as well, it makes me seething with nearly uncontrollable hatred against Luke. See it from his perspective. Do you really think he could ever move on as long as Luke hasn't paid for what he did? He is most likely going to die from a broken heart either way very soon, but if Luke's sheer presence already causes that much pain for me, imagine how much worse it has to be for Clive and Rachel. I doubt they, and I as well, can truly move on as long as Luke hasn't paid a horrible price for taking Alex away from them. So you see, this basically is a choice between saving Luke's life or saving the lives of Rachel and Clive.
I meant they're actual death.
While she lives she has a chance of finding happyness regarless of Luke's status.
But anyway im happy we agree
See, this is where I strongly disagree. Even with Rachel, who is young and tough as nails, I see moving on as an almost impossible task as long as Luke hasn't been dealt with. If I interpret her character the same way Hope does, then I doubt she could ever move on as well, as long as the monster that murdered her little brother hasn't gotten the deserved punishment. I know, in her position, I couldn't. Even afterwards, it will be a painfully hard task. And I highly doubt that Clive, who is an old man with already fragile health, could ever move on in the slightest. Things must be even worse for him, considering how much he lost. He already has heart problems, so the grief from Alex' death, the hole this must have left in his life, all of this is very likely to kill him sooner or later. Maybe it could get him some closure if Luke would get a well-deserved horrible punishment. It is a far shot, but worth a try in my eyes. For me, sparing Luke equals loosing Clive and likely Rachel as well, because it will ruin their lives even more. It would also mean that Alex' memory would be utterly degraded. He deserves more than that. He deserves to be avenged.
Yes. I can't put into words how much this means to me. This whole mess is already horrible enough and it gets even more horrible the more thought I put into this (for example, I only realized the stuff with Clive's wife about an hour ago), so it is a huge relief that I can count on your support. I can only hope that there will be justice and that this fucking mess won't get even more heartbreaking and frustrating because it already is unbearable for me. But whatever outcome there might be, I hope it will be soon. I've been waiting far too long for justice. Anyways, once again, I can only thank you. Hopefully, the rest, or at least a majority, will support me as well, although my hopes sadly are quite glum when it comes to this.
It's nothing personal Liquid, but I can't help but feel like you're exaggerating.
As for Luke, he's not completely innocent sure but he's still human. After what he went through and all the drugs in his system he wasn't exactly in his right mind. He didn't kill Alex 'just because' he saw him as a threat and acted on instinct. I'm not saying this justifys it but the way I see it, Luke definitely doesn't deserve death (or any other horrible fate you might want for him)
I think he just can't see Luke in positive or victimizing light. He keeps saying Luke deserved to be tortured........before he did anything. This makes me think he sees Luke as a negative force in creation, and thanks every 5th grader who beat him up years ago. Its intense hated for the character itself.
And yes Liquid i know you will probably reply : "But he IS a negative force in creation. Everything's better when hes dead and things would be beyond amazing if he never existed. And i think that doctor who dropped him as a baby and almost broke his skull deserves a medal"
How did i know you would say that? Magic!
Surely it must be easy to stay neutral in your case. I think I said earlier that I would probably see things similar to you if I wouldn't be so involved in this whole case. Just like Lord, let me ask you a couple of question: Just think about it, how would you feel if instead of Alex, one of your characters would have ended up getting this utterly horrifying and heartbreaking death? And then tell me, what exactly are you expecting me to do in this frustrating mess? Shall I forgive this complete monster that caused me so much grief? Shall I stand back and let him live a happy life, knowing fully well that at least the lives of Alex and Clive are destroyed because of his actions? What kind of punishment do you see fit for him, if you see neither death or any other horrible fate are acceptable? And finally, I can only ask you, why are you so hellbent on defending this murderer? After all the grief he caused me, there can be no excuse and no extenuating circumstances. For months now, I have been seething with anger and I simply can't swallow it. The way I see it, Luke is a horrible character, in every sense of the word and responsible for causing me a lot of sorrow. The mere thought of him getting an even remotely happy ending, while his victim and his victims whole family have their lives ruined because of him, this thought is literally unbearable for me. As long as he is alive, I simply can't stop hating him, so once again, what do you expect me to do?
Jeez liqiud making me regret submitting Luke and by the way I just made him a normal teenager with a few issues nothing that big. (Besides one dark secret which I'm pretty sure was revealed) so I guess it was Hope's idea to make him this way but I don't see him any where near as bad as you make him out to be like comparing him to Hitler or Satan that's pretty far. I surely think prison is all Luke deserves because people have gotten away with far worse crimes.
Well, first of all, I'm not sure if this is necessary, but I think I should clarify, just in case, I don't mean to offend you in any way, shape or form. You are great, one of the best in this forum and I have absolutely no beef with you. It's just Luke who has my neverending hatred. I am sorry that one of your characters is the target of my wrath and I am sorry for the fact that I will never back down in my hatred as long as he hasn't gotten a satisfying punishment. As much as I despise Luke, as much as I despise his role in the story, as much as his mere presence makes me enjoy this story less and as much as I probably sound livid with anger, these are only problems I have with Luke. Nothing more, you know that, right?
Now, let me try to explain the source of my problem. I don't know how you planned this person, monster, thing, whatever you want to see him as to be, but I guess he turned out a lot different from what you thought. The fact is, when he murdered Alex, he incurred my neverending, bottomless wrath. The moment he pulled the trigger, he stopped being just a normal teenager with a few issues, at least in my eyes. As much as it frustrates and annoys me that others see him as a human being, perhaps even as a victim, for me he is something much worse and he will always stay something much worse. He alone is the source of quite a lot of anger for me and he alone made many parts of this story simply frustrating to read and even more frustrating to comment on. This in turn causes me even more grief, because I love this story very much and I want to enjoy it despite the helpless frustration this character gave me. In my eyes, the most horrible torture the human mind could imagine would still be almost too kind for Luke, but the thought that he could get away without having his live ruined in a similar way the lives of my dear Carsons are ruined because of him, this thought makes me hate him even more. And let's be honest here, it all looks like he's going to get away with it.
Most of my hatred for him comes not only from the fact that he murdered a character I was looking forward for very much, before said character even appeared in the story, but also from the fact that the story seems to develop into a way where I am afraid that he might get away with all the grief he caused me, maybe even get some obnoxious redemption storyline or an otherwise remotely happy ending, which would just twist the knife even deeper. What makes it even worse is that everyone seems to expect of me to see him as the victim for no fucking reason and that everyone seems to be shocked that I want vengeance. Luke is no victim for me and he stopped being a teenager and even a human being in my eyes. He is nothing but a source of anger, frustration and sorrow to me and I definitely don't see him as anything else but a disgusting inhuman monster. Because of the fact that the damage his actions did to the lives of Alex, Clive and Rachel can never be repaired, he can never become anything else but a sheer source of bad emotions for me, someone whose continuing presence in this story is already enough to stir my rage. He makes me sick and I want him to pay for the grief he caused. I have build up this frustration and hatred for too long and now I simply need to have payback.
Well if he truely angers you that much then for your sake I hope you get your vengence but it seems you want more than just his death.
Thank you. You are right, to be honest I want more than just his death. I want a real punishment for him. Alex got a painful and humiliating death, so his killer should get something much worse. An eye for an eye is not a punishment, it's an equation. Punishment should go further and it should always be worse than the crime. How else could it be a punishment? At the same time, I can fully understand that Hope is probably not willing to write such a thing. I myself would certainly feel uncomfortable if I had to write down the punishment Luke would deserve. Because of this, even though I will try my best to give him a fate worse than death, I most likely have to settle simply for his death, if I even get this little victory. I just hope he dies soon and without dignity. I also hope there will be at least the chance for me to get my vengeance without ruining the live of one of my other characters even further, which sadly has been something Hope has hinted at and which is something I won't stand for under any circumstance. That would be the only way to make this scenario even worse for me.
Just please calm down? I feel like you're being a bit aggressive with me.
I don't 'expect' you to do anything, I just disagree with the way you're seeing things.
You are right. I can't and I won't. Seeing him in a positive or victimizing light means even further degrading and humiliating the real victim here, which is Alex and not Luke. After the circumstances of Alex' death have been bad enough already, taking vengeance on Luke is pretty much all that is left. His actions are inexcusable, not even justifiable in the slightest and the mere attempt is inappropriate. There is nothing positive and victimizing about him and there never will be.
I also disagree but it's clear Liquid has made his mind up and whatever argument you have about luke not being evil Liquid will make a counter as to why he is evil.
I'm not trying to change his mind, I'm just 'debating'
Just like with Xsensus, I probably should clarify that am not aggressive with you and that you are also among the greatest people in this forum. Hell, I even respect your views, in a certain way and if I wouldn't be so personally involved, I would even share them. But this time I can't stay neutral and objective. If I sound aggressive and pissed, then this is simply the result of the immense frustration that has bottled up in me ever since Chapter 1 ended. The only one I am angry at is Luke, but the total frustration that this mess gave me makes me undeniably really pissed. At the same time, let me just add, I always enjoy our debate, just as I enjoy debating with Lord, XSensus and the others, because it gives me a chance to express my frustration. I really am not angry at you and I hope that is clear.
I'm just honestly asking you, out of curiosity, what I should do in this situation, in your opinion. You say I'm overreacting. Well, then what should I do? What would you do in my situation? Luke caused me a whole lot of grief and still you are arguing that he should get away with it. Should I just ignore what he did? Should I just stand back while everyone argues what a poor victim he is? How exactly should I let go of this utterly bottomless hatred I have for him if I don't even get the chance to make him pay?
Oh stop, you'll make me blush ^_^
I completely understand you hating him and wanting him to die (even though I disagree). What I don't understand is calling him a monster, not even human, and saying he deserves to suffer.
Something I've hesitated to suggest is that Alex would've done the same thing if thier roles were reversed. Do you disagree?
Well first I'd find out why I have all this anger targeting luke which in your case I assume it was because he killed one of your characters who had no lines or development before his death, you probably put a fair bit of work into writing Alex so I think this is what started the hatred for luke as at the time of Alexs death we didn't know who the killer was you thought it was luke and it turned out it was which would have built up more anger and frustation. I'll guess you always found him frustrating.
Luke isn't innocent but I don't think he is as guilty as you think but still he should be punished but if it comes to his death he would not deserve a torturous death because no one deserves that.
I don't know what I would do if it was me in your situation because when I get angry or frustrated I find it hard to calm down, but Liquid to be honest I barely know you so what could for me might not work for you.
I think I said this way earlier, back when I started to get really vicious in my hatred, he is all of these things in my eyes alone. In turn, I have problems understanding why the rest doesn't see him as an inhuman monster after all he did to me. All he did in the story was causing me plenty of negative emotions, mostly hatred, sorrow and esepcially, huge amounts of frustration. While it has been fairly tame at first (also a result of me being in some sort of shock and denial for most of Chapter 2), this frustration has bottled up and increased with every part, while the hints grew stronger that Luke is the killer. The circumstances of Alex' death make it simply impossible for Luke to be anything else in my eyes but the being that is at fault for this. And by all means, such a being, which only caused me grief, can only be a monster in my eyes. I know, he hasn't caused these strong negative emotions in anyone else and I don't want to force anyone to see him as the inhuman monster he is in my eyes. I just want to have the chance to let this bottled up anger out, by getting the chance to make him pay for all of this. After how frustrating all of this was, I just want satisfaction. As a result, I probably sound quite angry when arguing with someone who is likely to prevent me from getting this satisfaction. In turn, even thinking about the fact that things could become even more horrible makes me even more frustrated and the more frustrated I become, the worse my opinion about Luke becomes, because he is the only one responsible and the only one I can direct my hatred at. This cycle can only be broken once Luke got either death or something worse.
I don't disagree. I simply don't know what would have happened if their roles would have been reversed. One thing I am almost sure of is, Alex would have shot Owen on spot instead of leaving someone as dangerous as him behind. If he would have met Luke afterwards, well, I don't know what would have happened. It is certainly possible that Alex would have done the same and shot Luke, although I think it is unlikely. If their roles would have been reversed, I could fully understand and accept if xSensus would see him as a monster that has to die. Even though he is one of my characters, I would stop liking him and wouldn't defend him. I wouldn't share this intense hatred, but I would say nothing in his favour and wouldn't mourn for him if he dies. Save to say though, I would be a lot calmer, more objective and less frustrated about all of this. I don't know how else I would react, although it is likely that I would ultimately give up on Alex, so that he can be judged and punished by someone else.
What you say is absolutely true. At least, all of it aside from the second paragraph, where I naturally disagree severely and wholeheartedly. Luke deserves to feel a thousand times the pain Alex felt and which Clive and Rachel have to feel for the rest of their lives. However, while I was away yesterday, I had a thought that made me realize just why I hate Luke so much more than every other character I ever read about, even more than people like Ramsay from the Ice and Fire books and why I see him as so much worse and frustrating than these other characters, up to the point where I am literally revolted by his mere presence. It's the fact that, when these characters do something so inexcusably terrible, like, for example, Luke murdering Alex, I can usually be sure that they will be treated as the villains they are, that they will get their well-deserved comeuppance sooner or later and that I will get my satisfaction with their death.
With Luke however, the biggest part of my frustration and the resulting anger I have for him comes from the fact that he has a very big chance to actually get away with his actions, or that he will at least stick around for an undeservedly long time, a literal cancer in this otherwise great story. Luke is a villain, he's actually the villain of this story and it goes against my deepest convictions that a villain as horrible as him should get a happy ending. Owen for example, who is just like Luke an obnoxious sociopath and an irredeemable monster, is more likely to get his comeuppance instead of getting away. I'm sure that before this story ends, someone is going to shoot him in the head for his involvement in Alex' death, which helps keeping the immense hatred I have for him in line. But the thought that makes me really hate Luke is that he actually is more likely to never get a truly satisfying punishment. In the worst case, I'm afraid that pursuing my well-deserved vengeance could ruin the lives of my other characters even more, if that is even possible, which in turn is a thought that makes this whole fucking mess even more frustrating for me and increases my anger at this monster even further every time I even think about it. And that is the biggest reason for why my hatred for Luke is so much bigger than my hatred for other characters, like this insignificant vermin Owen or this obnoxious rapist Pittman. At least they have a very big chance to actually get a satisfying death, you know what I mean?
Chapter Five: Empathy (Part 1)
Rachel Carson
Clive laid in the hospital bed with different machinery monitoring his health. He was barely conscious, and the painkillers and other medicines made him appear dazed. He responded to Rachel entering the room by opening his eyes slightly wider though they were still merely slits that betrayed their once welcoming amber glow.
“Rachel,” he mumbled, following her with his eyes with difficulty as she approached the side of his bed until he was forced to turn his neck. “Have they given me the painkillers? Have they taken effect?”
“Yes, both.” She hesitated to ask: “Are you still hurting?”
“I-- I don’t think so,” he said. “I feel numb, though. Just numb.”
Rachel’s brow furrowed and she bit her lip. “I’ve seen your doctor’s records. You’ve been seeing a private physician and doctor since you moved to Silicon. Your heart condition is much worse than you’ve let on, isn’t it?”
He frowned deeply. “Yes. But-- but I didn’t tell you because I didn’t-- I didn’t want to worry you… or Alex.”
There was a commotion down the hall and Rachel heard the hurried footsteps of several people and some shouting. She was worried if not a bit curious, wondering what could be happening.
Clive pulled her away from the thought when he mumbled a question. “When is he going to get here?”
Rachel instantly looked back to her father. “Who?” she asked, confused.
“Alexander,” he said with an innocent tone amidst the stupor. “When will he get here?”
Rachel bit her lip even harder. The heart attack, coupled with the medicine and whatever other factors were at played, messed with his mind, making him forget. For a moment, she thought about letting him believe her younger brother was still alive but felt apprehensive. Based on the documents, his state of health was in clear decline. The tests relating to his most recent hospitalization were still being processed. It was clear, to one extent or another, that the news wasn’t going to be good. Doubts surfaced in her mind and she wondered if leading him to believe his son was alive in his final days would be cruel or merciful; she herself felt guilty just considering it. But would reminding him of Alex's death also remind him of his shortcomings as a father? Would that be worse?
[Lead him to believe Alexander is still alive.]
[Correct him gently.]
[Correct him gently.] No good will come from saying otherwise.
Damn it, Clive. I knew it was bad, but I had no idea just how much worse his condition truly is. Just so you know, I'm blaming this one on Luke as well, just like I'm fully blaming him for Sam. If it weren't for the added emotional stress, I highly doubt Clive would have gotten this heartattack anytime soon. He has also been visited by Luke's presence in Chapter 3, if I remember correctly, immediately before he had his heartattack, so I bet this is related. So yeah, I guess now I want Luke to suffer more than ever. Not only for Alex, but for Clive as well. I just deeply hope his mistake of an existence won't result in Rachel getting her live ruined even further on top of what he already did.
[Lead him to believe Alexander is still alive.]
I mean, come on. The man is obviously dying. Have a heart and make his final days easier. Reminding him of Alex' death will only make things more painful for him. However, the mere fact that this is a choice, that Rachel has to either tell her dying father about his murdered son or lie to him, this choice proves me right about everything I said about Luke. This worthless and useless piece of subhuman shit, whose sheer existence is a cancerous mistake, has as of now murdered one of my characters actively and is about to murder another one passively with his actions, so I hope the hate I have for him is a bit more understandable. Perhaps he is going to do something terrible to Rachel as well, beyond the fact that he basically killed her entire family. Ah fuck it. Never before has a painful death been more appropriate than in the case of Luke fucking Page. As for Clive, he deserved better, just like Alex. He does not deserve to be confronted with his sons death in his final days. I know how bad this is for me, so I can imagine how much worse this must be for him. At the same time, Rachel does not deserve having to lie to her dying father, but in this case, she just has to do whats best for Clive. God damn it... all just because of this one monster. He has to die for what he did to my dear Carsons, he has to suffer. I hope he will die soon and screaming, feeling a thousand times the pain he caused me and them. First and foremost though, I am now deeply concerned that Rachel could snap as a result of her whole family being murdered by this one bastard. That would be the only thing even worse than Luke getting away with his actions. Maybe he could at least not utterly ruin her live, like he ruined the lives of Clive and Alex.
[Lead him to believe Alexander is still alive.]
Hey, the guy deserves it. Seriously. Sometimes, the truth isn't what the people need.
[Correct him gently.]
Ah God its up to me isn't it.........
[Lead him to believe Alexander is still alive.]
I dont know if this is the morally good choice. There are arguments for both sides but I guess it sounds like the more merciful choice to let him live his final days without knowing that his son is dead. But I totally know that someone who is in hospital because he had a heart attack shouldnt learn about the death of his son. I guess it played a big role in his first heart attack. Learning about it again right after the first heart attack could kill him. Lying could make his live a little bit longer and happier so I choose this.
My god, why haven't I realized this earlier? Revealing the truth could indeed kill him, couldn't it? Damn it... It has actually been my first impulse to vote to correct him gently and now I am incredibly glad that I haven't done it. Thank you for bringing this up, bro. Luckily, it looks like this choice is winning, or else I would be even more concerned for Clive. Though I think Rachel's prognosis made it clear that he is going to die either way very soon, thanks to Luke.
By the way and while I'm at it: I don't think I ever asked you and since I already know the different positions of a few readers, especially Lord's and Agent's, I am quite curious. What is your personal opinion on this repulsive mixture of Kim Jong-Un and Justin Bieber, the soon-to-be-dead subhuman known as Luke?
Justin Bieber? Liquid, now you are unfair :P
About Luke, interestin question! He never did anything to my character so I dont have a reason to hate him as much as you do. I try to stay neutral in this discussion. But I understand you and I also dont like him! He is my second least favorite character after Owen. In my opinion he is not a monster but he is responsible for many bad things especially to your characters, so I understand why you hate him so much. But I dont think we can fully blame him for Sams death, I think this is more on Owen. Luke is also a bit responsible but not as much as Owen. I think Owen is less responsible for Alexander and Clive which is where you are right to blame Luke. But Owen is also not innocent about them too. About Lukes fate, I dont really care what happens to him. I dont hate him and Im fine with every outcome. Maybe not a happy outcome because I feel like there should be a punishment but I am neutral how much he deserves. He did nothing bad to my character so I think it is not my job to decide his fate. But I know this is very important for you, so I will most likely support you as long as I feel that it doesnt get out of hand. To be clear, I will not support anything that harms people who are not Luke or Owen! And if I support you, you owe me ;P
I want to ask you something in return. You and Hope talked about superpowers earlier. Luke has superpowers. He regenerated his own injuries after the tree fell on him and other things as well. So far we havent seen a limit to what he is able to do. And now I want to ask you what would you do if he heals Clives heart problems with his new powers? How would you feel abotu him?
[Lead him to believe Alexander is still alive]