Well the stealing is dependent on your choice but yes she threatens him which she instantly regrets and says "what am I doing holding a gun … moreto a kid's head" or something along those lines to Clem.
Secondly Arvo was stealing from his group even without Jane and Clem.
And that only got Arvo's group killed. Also, that was Arvo's fault.
He walked away with his bag of supplies. Not sure why he wanted to be confrontational
Although I already said it, I'm gonna repeat it: Jane is not selfish. Caring about someone, even if they're a replacement for a deceased loved one is not being selfish. Kenny asks you to shoot him after he kills Jane, if you point a gun at him, which means he also needed the baby to survive mentally.
I didn't care for Kenny much after he fought my Lee every step of the way of season 1 except for the End . I was happy to see him in season 2 and tried to stay neutral most times . I first shot him and left Jane but after replaying I liked the Kenny Wellington ending the best by far. The other ones are interesting . To avoid making 5 dif games for season 3 I would think a DLC will get us to Wellington no matter what ending you chose .
I explained every reason why Jane is selfish. Hell I even compared her to another selfish character.
Kenny proved he wasn't Carver and he … morewasn't selfish in his ending.
And that makes me a hypocrite? xD.
I wasn't even a Kenny fan before this episode.
You missed the point.. (and again Kenny did not try to murder Jane. Fighting someone doesn't = trying to kill them. He only killed her when he was fighting for his life).
I was only talking about Jane's intentions behind putting the knife away. She wasn't done trying to execute her plan. You're kind of going off on a tangent here.
if all he did was yell at Jane that would not have proven anything, and Jane would have been kicked out of the group for the pulling the stu… morent.
Exactly, if he would've taken the moment to analyze the situation instead of trying to murder Jane, Kenny would've won me AND a lot of other people over.
I'm with you before this EP If I was given a choice straight up I would have went with Jane she is level headed and a real survivor. The fact she manipulated an 11 yr old into Killing the only guy she knew since this all broke out was just too much for my Clementine , Like Lee she may not have much she may have experienced so much loss so far but she will never lose her dignity.
Also when Clem is alone with Kenny he realizes the mistakes he has made and really opens up to Clem , I think if he had done this to the entire group things would have ended up much different. If they knew how he really felt and why he did some of the things he did . He's human . And Kenny has been in this situation before with the Boat and now Truck He may have made some mistakes over but not intentionally the man is just trying to keep Clem and AJ safe at all costs because lets face it the worst enemies in the world of the WD is the people not the Zombies.
I get what Jane was trying to do, but it was wrong. Kenny has made mistakes and he's definitely volatile, but no matter what, he cares about the kids. Clem and AJ were his main priority at this point. In a point where they had to rely on each other, Jane picked a fight with Kenny from the start in the truck. Honestly, is it really smart to mess with a guy who gets upset at the drop of a hat as he's DRIVING?
When Jane came back empty handed, I thought she may have killed the baby. She said repeatedly that Rebecca and the baby were going to be liabilities, so I almost wouldn't put it past her to do something like that. She also could have ended the fight at any time and say that AJ was alive, while completely "proving her point" that Kenny was unstable emotionally and then she would be alive. I couldn't save her because I was disgusted that she may have killed AJ...and even if it was all just to prove a point, that's a vile thing to do to use the baby as a tool. It is true - what if AJ didn't cry out? He would never have been found. Kenny would never use Clem and AJ that way. Despite everything, he's a family man and proves that by making a case for Clem and AJ to be allowed into Wellington without him. I couldn't leave him after all that and I can only hope he, Clem, and the baby can make due and try Wellington again at a later date.
Exactly !! , If given a choice I would have went with Jane but that stunt she pulled even if she had told clem before hand she knew Clem would never have any part of it so she tricked her. Wasn't really a choice .
If jane cared that much about Clem, then why didn't she let her "choose" instead of forcing that stupid plan of hers ?
She wanted to have a reason to get rid of Kenny, god, she's crazy.
Hmm.. sticking a knife into their leg is not murder. Nor trying stab them in the heart with them too. You're really saying Kenny was not trying to murder Jane? That's kind of delusional. Jane put the knife away, and Kenny still kept coming. lol
You missed the point.. (and again Kenny did not try to murder Jane. Fighting someone doesn't = trying to kill them. He only killed her when … morehe was fighting for his life).
I was only talking about Jane's intentions behind putting the knife away. She wasn't done trying to execute her plan. You're kind of going off on a tangent here.
It was self defense. He initiated the fight to begin with by charging her (wasn't trying to kill her), but everything else from that point was defensive up until he ended her. After Jane pulled a knife on him he disengaged from the fight and ran outside. She sprinted after him and proceeded to make it clear that she was intending to kill him. She followed that up with trying to slash and stab him even though he was not attacking her at all. Kenny then caught her arm mid slash and threw her down with a defensive move.. but fell over the fence as well. She used the opportunity to try and gouge out his bad eye. He then gets free and kills her in an act of self defense.
None of this should have happened if Jane wanted to end the fight. She didn't need to engage him outside. She could have told him AJ was still alive instead of trying to kill him.
Kenny wasn't trying to murder Jane...
Hmm.. sticking a knife into their leg is not murder. Nor trying stab them in the heart with them to… moreo. You're really saying Kenny was not trying to murder Jane? That's kind of delusional. Jane put the knife away, and Kenny still kept coming. lol
So, using your Logic, Kenny is selfish too for needing the baby for himself to survive mentally.
That is fan made speculation. No where in the game is this proven or hinted to.
He helped bring the baby into the world when no one else could, and immediately started taking care of it as Rebecca was trying to recover. There are other reasons for him taking care of the baby besides him trying survive mentally.
Even if you are correct in your assumption, you are not really talking about a conscious decision.
So, using your Logic, Kenny is selfish too for needing the baby for himself to survive mentally.
I don't think either Kenny or Jane are s… moreelfish for caring about someone, I don't think they even noticed they're using AJ/Clem to replace someone they loved.
So, using your Logic, Kenny is selfish too for needing the baby for himself to survive mentally.
I don't think either Kenny or Jane are s… moreelfish for caring about someone, I don't think they even noticed they're using AJ/Clem to replace someone they loved.
Yes he made a selfless act at Wellington but that is still based around the fact that he failed to project his family so he needs make up for that at least in his own head.
What? Where do you get that? Clem is basically family to him anyway.
What? Kenny might have had the best interest of the group in mind, but he wouldn't hear any other suggestion than what he decided on his own… more. He pushed everyone away, except maybe Clem but he wasn't far from that. His actions teared the group apart, because he was selfish.
Kenny only realized how broken he was, after he killed Jane.
Yes he made a selfless act at Wellington but that is still based around the fact that he failed to project his family so he needs make up for that at least in his own head.
Bottom line I'm not saying kenny is a bad person but he is a selfish one.
He isn't. People tend to sometimes think he is because his opinions fall in the minority.. but he was always looking out for the interest of the group. For everyone refusing to get on board with his plans, he turned out to be correct though. If I were him, I would be very frustrated as well.
If anyone was selfish it was the group around him. Whenever they really needed his help they came crawling, but the minute they disagreed with one of his plans, he would just become some crazy suicidal idiot in their minds.
I think you forgot that he attacked her first. Jane put the knife back in its holster in sign that she wanted to solve all the most peaceful way possible. but Kenny pushed her against the glass door and made it clear he wasn't interested in talking.. because he automatically concluded that she had killed the baby..
He wasn't trying to kill Jane until she tried to kill him. Regardless, Jane had a perfect opportunity to end the fight when Kenny ran away o… moreutside. He wasn't even trying to fight her when he first went out there. Jane sprinted out after him with her knife and made it clear that she was going to kill him. All the while he was just backing away. She then tried to stab and slash him.. even though he wasn't even fighting her. Instead of trying to kill him, she could have explained that the baby was still alive.
Even if my Clem made clear to her she trusted Kenny no matter what and wanted to go with him to Wellington, Jane still had to pull a sick manipulative game to force her into reconsidering her opinion.
Guess Clem was a puppy who couldn't make her own decisions in Jane's eyes.
Now someone who doesn't have the capability of analyzing a situation would say exactly just that.
Would you care to explain which part of my premise is wrong, instead of just dishing out an ad hominem? Or in other words: Even if I don't have the capability to analyse a situation, how does that make my satement fallacious?
It was self defense. He initiated the fight to begin with by charging her (wasn't trying to kill her), but everything else from that point w… moreas defensive up until he ended her. After Jane pulled a knife on him he disengaged from the fight and ran outside. She sprinted after him and proceeded to make it clear that she was intending to kill him. She followed that up with trying to slash and stab him even though he was not attacking her at all. Kenny then caught her arm mid slash and threw her down with a defensive move.. but fell over the fence as well. She used the opportunity to try and gouge out his bad eye. He then gets free and kills her in an act of self defense.
None of this should have happened if Jane wanted to end the fight. She didn't need to engage him outside. She could have told him AJ was still alive instead of trying to kill him.
Highly agree, both Jane endings in my opinion are stale and Clementine doesn't seem the same...as where the Kenny endings are heartwarming, enough to make you tear up, and you learn how much he really cares.
Now someone who doesn't have the capability of analyzing a situation would say exactly just that.
Would you care to explain which pa… morert of my premise is wrong, instead of just dishing out an ad hominem? Or in other words: Even if I don't have the capability to analyse a situation, how does that make my satement fallacious?
If you talk to Kenny afterwards and say that Jane didn't have to die, Kenny reponds that he would have stopped, if Jane had told him, that AJ is alive.
Do you really think that Kenny would stop? no matter what Jane would say, he would try to kill her anyway. because in his head, Jane had alr… moreeady killed the baby, he automatically reached this conclusion without even discussing the matter.. the man was lost!
You once again, entirely missed the point. Obviously Kenny was the original aggressor. That goes without saying. That literally does not change what I said above at all though. Not even a little. At that point in time he had disengaged from the fight. Just because he had started it does not mean he can't possibly go on the defensive. He was fighting for his life. He wasn't trying to fight Jane outside. She followed him outside after he disengaged and then tried to kill him. This is very simple stuff.
I'll say once again that Jane was also the one who turned the fight into a fight to the death. Just because Kenny was being physical with her does not mean he was trying to kill her. Saying otherwise is completely baseless. After Jane started using lethal force Kenny wanted no part of it.
I get what Jane was trying to do, but it was wrong. Kenny has made mistakes and he's definitely volatile, but no matter what, he cares about… more the kids. Clem and AJ were his main priority at this point. In a point where they had to rely on each other, Jane picked a fight with Kenny from the start in the truck. Honestly, is it really smart to mess with a guy who gets upset at the drop of a hat as he's DRIVING?
When Jane came back empty handed, I thought she may have killed the baby. She said repeatedly that Rebecca and the baby were going to be liabilities, so I almost wouldn't put it past her to do something like that. She also could have ended the fight at any time and say that AJ was alive, while completely "proving her point" that Kenny was unstable emotionally and then she would be alive. I couldn't save her because I was disgusted that she may have killed AJ...and even if it was all just to prove a point, that's a vile thing to do to us… [view original content]
Your evidence is pretty thin and there are more likely ways to interpret it. "You're 90% of the reason I came back" just means that Jane likes Clem more than other people in the group. There's nothing crazy or selfish about that.
"I did this for you, for us" and "I can't do this alone" means that Jane is shifting from a lone wolf into a group member again and that she's becoming family with Clem. Lots of people make new families in TWD. Kenny and Clem were family. Lee and Clem were family. No one called them selfish for becoming family.
Jane has been shut down for so long that when she starts to care for someone again, she wants to protect them. There's no convincing evidence that Jane considers Clem the new Jamie or that Jane wants Clem all to herself. In the Howe's ending where you let the family in, Jane isn't sure it's a good idea but it's not like she demands that Clem kick them out so she can have Clem all to herself. Jane was trying to protect Clem from Kenny's madness and made a mistake underestimating how far Kenny would go. She wasn't trying to keep Clem all to herself.
I really do not understand what your post has to do with the points that I made, but..
I think you forgot that he attacked her first.
Definitely not.
Jane put the knife back in its holster in sign that she wanted to solve all the most peaceful way possible.
That wasn't her intention. She wanted to bring out the worst in Kenny. She was not looking for a peaceful solution. That would have totally gone against what she was trying to do in the first place. She was trying to paint Kenny in a bad light for Clem. If Kenny did what she asked him to, she would have proven nothing... and would have looked incredibly foolish and sick once she had to admit what kind of twisted stunt she had just tried to pull. She was counting on Kenny giving her a violent reaction.
If she truly only wanted peace, she would admit that the baby was still alive.
and made it clear he wasn't interested in talking
That doesn't mean that you don't try to rationalize. Jane didn't want to do that though, because it went against the agenda of getting him to flip out.
I think you forgot that he attacked her first. Jane put the knife back in its holster in sign that she wanted to solve all the most peaceful… more way possible. but Kenny pushed her against the glass door and made it clear he wasn't interested in talking.. because he automatically concluded that she had killed the baby..
If you talk to Kenny afterwards and say that Jane didn't have to die, Kenny reponds that he would have stopped, if Jane had told him, that AJ is alive.
That may be true. but it's very easy to say certain things after the hell is over. and even if it was in fact the truth. I would never let Kenny kill Jane over an "accident".
If you talk to Kenny afterwards and say that Jane didn't have to die, Kenny reponds that he would have stopped, if Jane had told him, that AJ is alive.
Do we really know that he WOULD have stopped, though? I'm not sure he actually would. He wasn't "All there" after he heard that AJ "died". I wouldn't be surprised if he kept attempting to murder Jane even if she HAD said AJ was alright.
Although, Jane never even attempted to stop him by saying that, so she was out for blood as much as he was.
If you talk to Kenny afterwards and say that Jane didn't have to die, Kenny reponds that he would have stopped, if Jane had told him, that AJ is alive.
When he's saying 'Kenny doesn't put Clem in danger once', looking at determinant actions is useful. Otherwise we don't have full understanding of a character.
There is nothing to analyse for Kenny and Jane knows that. And that Jane wants a fight to the death, becomes apparent when they are fighting outside:
Kenny: I'll fuckin kill you!
Jane: I... knew you would...
Again Jane sets Kenny up, because she perfectly knows, that Kenny will assume that she killed AJ. And that this will make Kenny snap. She has Kenny on the ground multiple times and she doesn't stop, because she wants Kenny dead. None of the fighting would have happened, if Jane just went into the building with AJ.
wouldn't be surprised if he kept attempting to murder Jane even if she HAD said AJ was alright.
He was never really necessarily attempting to murder her though. He only killed her once it had become a fight to the death. Fighting doesn't necessarily = trying to murder someone... right? He doesn't try to do anything lethal to her until he picks up her knife and finishes her off after she had just gotten done trying to gouge out his eye..
I think Kenny would have stopped if told that AJ was alive. That was all that he cared about. If he was potentially out there somewhere he would probably want to get to him immediately.
Do we really know that he WOULD have stopped, though? I'm not sure he actually would. He wasn't "All there" after he heard that AJ "died". I… more wouldn't be surprised if he kept attempting to murder Jane even if she HAD said AJ was alright.
Although, Jane never even attempted to stop him by saying that, so she was out for blood as much as he was.
Whatever you think of her, she didn't deserve to be murdered and Kenny doesn't deserve to become the next Lily/Carver/Governor. Only you can save Kenny and Jane.
Do what Kenny wants, stop him from killing Jane and becoming a monster.
"I think you forgot that he attacked her first." Definitely not.
Kenny: How could you kill a FUCKING CHILD?!
Jane: I didin't kill him! It was an ACCIDENT, Kenny.
Kenny: BULLSHIT!
Jane: I won't back down from you, Kenny.
Kenny: SHUT UP!
Jane: I'm warning you.
Clementine: Kenny let her talk!
Kenny: I'm done talkin', Clem.
Jane: Clem! stay back.
..And after that she put her knife back in its holster, and Kenny pushes her against the glass door. so, Yeah! He definitely attacked her first.
All Kenny dialogs make it clear that he wasn't interested in talking anymore. he had already decided the fact that Jane left AJ to die. and so he would kill her.
She was trying to paint Kenny in a bad light for Clem.
Nope. she was trying to show to Clem that Kenny was already a bad painting. and not only Jane warned that. all the people in the group at some point expressed concerns with the explosive behavior of Kenny. this wasn't the first time. the difference is that Jane was the only person brave enough to face him. while others fled..
If Kenny did what she asked him to, she would have proven nothing...
If Kenny had acted civilly. he would have proven to Jane that she was wrong about him. that he was not that broken, uncontrolled and emotionally unbalanced man. And then Jane would have told him the whole truth about AJ. but unfortunately that's not how things happened ..
I really do not understand what your post has to do with the points that I made, but..
I think you forgot that he attacked her first.
… more
Definitely not.
Jane put the knife back in its holster in sign that she wanted to solve all the most peaceful way possible.
That wasn't her intention. She wanted to bring out the worst in Kenny. She was not looking for a peaceful solution. That would have totally gone against what she was trying to do in the first place. She was trying to paint Kenny in a bad light for Clem. If Kenny did what she asked him to, she would have proven nothing... and would have looked incredibly foolish and sick once she had to admit what kind of twisted stunt she had just tried to pull. She was counting on Kenny giving her a violent reaction.
If she truly only wanted peace, she would admit that the baby was still alive.
and made it clear he wasn't interested in talking
That doesn't me… [view original content]
Kenny pushes her against the glass door. so, Yeah! He definitely attacked her first.
I was replying to you saying that I had forgotten that Kenny had attacked first. I wasn't saying that Kenny did not attack first, I was saying that I hadn't forgotten that he did.
All Kenny dialogs make it clear that he wasn't interested in talking anymore. he had already decided the fact that Jane left AJ to die. and so he would kill her
Nah. You're coming to that conclusion all on your own. And sure, Kenny wasn't interested in talking. That doesn't mean he would not have listened to rationalization. Of course saying "It was an accident" isn't going to be enough to calm down a parent/guardian/protector who feels like their child has been murdered.
Nope. she was trying to show to Clem that Kenny was already a bad painting.
Different word choice, same exact thing I was trying to say. She wanted to show Kenny in a certain light all the same. She was willing to twist reality in order to push her agenda and get what she wanted. It was ridiculously immoral and unfair to Kenny.
all the people in the group at some point expressed concerns with the explosive behavior of Kenny.
Not in the context that Jane was trying to prove. Kenny never intentionally tried to hurt a group member before. Jane intentionally set him up so he would try to do so. It was sick and twisted, even if she had good intentions for Clem.
the difference is that Jane was the only person brave enough to face him. while others fled..
Again, not comparable situations. You're comparing her maybe killing his kid to him arguing over plans + beating up an enemy to the group who had gotten a group member killed. Kenny never threatened to hurt anyone who didn't harm his family.
If Kenny had acted civilly. he would have proven to Jane that she was wrong about him.
A parent/guardian who thinks their child has been murdered is not going to act civil to the supposed guilty individual. Especially if that individual refuses to rationalize what they did. You're not being realistic here.
And then Jane would have told him the whole truth about AJ. but unfortunately that's not how things happened ..
Would she have? Her whole plan would have come down crashing on her head. Kenny would have ditched her, and Clem probably would have too unless she decided to be a scumbag and ditch Kenny anyway. Either way, Jane would greatly risk losing Clem.
"I think you forgot that he attacked her first." Definitely not.
Kenny: How could you kill a FUCKING CHILD?!
Jane: I didin't k… moreill him! It was an ACCIDENT, Kenny.
Kenny: BULLSHIT!
Jane: I won't back down from you, Kenny.
Kenny: SHUT UP!
Jane: I'm warning you.
Clementine: Kenny let her talk!
Kenny: I'm done talkin', Clem.
Jane: Clem! stay back.
..And after that she put her knife back in its holster, and Kenny pushes her against the glass door. so, Yeah! He definitely attacked her first.
All Kenny dialogs make it clear that he wasn't interested in talking anymore. he had already decided the fact that Jane left AJ to die. and so he would kill her.
She was trying to paint Kenny in a bad light for Clem.
Nope. she was trying to show to Clem that Kenny was already a bad painting. and not only Jane warned that. all the people in the group at some point expressed concerns with the explosive behav… [view original content]
Comments
BROS 4 LYFE ... until you disagree with me..
Lol that sums him up perfectly. I try my best to like him but when he pulls shit like that it pisses me off
Her reaction is irrelevant. She always steals something from Arvo which puts her at blame. Also. I'd like some proof on him "stealing from his group".
The shootout caused Luke to get shot in the leg which was part of the reason he died.
Also, he walked away without his gun even if he kept all his supplies.
Although I already said it, I'm gonna repeat it: Jane is not selfish. Caring about someone, even if they're a replacement for a deceased loved one is not being selfish. Kenny asks you to shoot him after he kills Jane, if you point a gun at him, which means he also needed the baby to survive mentally.
I didn't care for Kenny much after he fought my Lee every step of the way of season 1 except for the End . I was happy to see him in season 2 and tried to stay neutral most times . I first shot him and left Jane but after replaying I liked the Kenny Wellington ending the best by far. The other ones are interesting . To avoid making 5 dif games for season 3 I would think a DLC will get us to Wellington no matter what ending you chose .
You missed the point.. (and again Kenny did not try to murder Jane. Fighting someone doesn't = trying to kill them. He only killed her when he was fighting for his life).
I was only talking about Jane's intentions behind putting the knife away. She wasn't done trying to execute her plan. You're kind of going off on a tangent here.
Nice Real Housewives of Orange County gif. XP
[removed]
I'm with you before this EP If I was given a choice straight up I would have went with Jane she is level headed and a real survivor. The fact she manipulated an 11 yr old into Killing the only guy she knew since this all broke out was just too much for my Clementine , Like Lee she may not have much she may have experienced so much loss so far but she will never lose her dignity.
Also when Clem is alone with Kenny he realizes the mistakes he has made and really opens up to Clem , I think if he had done this to the entire group things would have ended up much different. If they knew how he really felt and why he did some of the things he did . He's human . And Kenny has been in this situation before with the Boat and now Truck He may have made some mistakes over but not intentionally the man is just trying to keep Clem and AJ safe at all costs because lets face it the worst enemies in the world of the WD is the people not the Zombies.
I get what Jane was trying to do, but it was wrong. Kenny has made mistakes and he's definitely volatile, but no matter what, he cares about the kids. Clem and AJ were his main priority at this point. In a point where they had to rely on each other, Jane picked a fight with Kenny from the start in the truck. Honestly, is it really smart to mess with a guy who gets upset at the drop of a hat as he's DRIVING?
When Jane came back empty handed, I thought she may have killed the baby. She said repeatedly that Rebecca and the baby were going to be liabilities, so I almost wouldn't put it past her to do something like that. She also could have ended the fight at any time and say that AJ was alive, while completely "proving her point" that Kenny was unstable emotionally and then she would be alive. I couldn't save her because I was disgusted that she may have killed AJ...and even if it was all just to prove a point, that's a vile thing to do to use the baby as a tool. It is true - what if AJ didn't cry out? He would never have been found. Kenny would never use Clem and AJ that way. Despite everything, he's a family man and proves that by making a case for Clem and AJ to be allowed into Wellington without him. I couldn't leave him after all that and I can only hope he, Clem, and the baby can make due and try Wellington again at a later date.
Exactly !! , If given a choice I would have went with Jane but that stunt she pulled even if she had told clem before hand she knew Clem would never have any part of it so she tricked her. Wasn't really a choice .
Kenny wasn't trying to murder Jane...
Hmm.. sticking a knife into their leg is not murder. Nor trying stab them in the heart with them too. You're really saying Kenny was not trying to murder Jane? That's kind of delusional. Jane put the knife away, and Kenny still kept coming. lol
It was self defense. He initiated the fight to begin with by charging her (wasn't trying to kill her), but everything else from that point was defensive up until he ended her. After Jane pulled a knife on him he disengaged from the fight and ran outside. She sprinted after him and proceeded to make it clear that she was intending to kill him. She followed that up with trying to slash and stab him even though he was not attacking her at all. Kenny then caught her arm mid slash and threw her down with a defensive move.. but fell over the fence as well. She used the opportunity to try and gouge out his bad eye. He then gets free and kills her in an act of self defense.
None of this should have happened if Jane wanted to end the fight. She didn't need to engage him outside. She could have told him AJ was still alive instead of trying to kill him.
It does when two out of the remaining three are determinants.
That is fan made speculation. No where in the game is this proven or hinted to.
He helped bring the baby into the world when no one else could, and immediately started taking care of it as Rebecca was trying to recover. There are other reasons for him taking care of the baby besides him trying survive mentally.
Even if you are correct in your assumption, you are not really talking about a conscious decision.
(Double Post)
What? Where do you get that? Clem is basically family to him anyway.
He isn't. People tend to sometimes think he is because his opinions fall in the minority.. but he was always looking out for the interest of the group. For everyone refusing to get on board with his plans, he turned out to be correct though. If I were him, I would be very frustrated as well.
If anyone was selfish it was the group around him. Whenever they really needed his help they came crawling, but the minute they disagreed with one of his plans, he would just become some crazy suicidal idiot in their minds.
I think you forgot that he attacked her first. Jane put the knife back in its holster in sign that she wanted to solve all the most peaceful way possible. but Kenny pushed her against the glass door and made it clear he wasn't interested in talking.. because he automatically concluded that she had killed the baby..
Tell that to Jane.
Even if my Clem made clear to her she trusted Kenny no matter what and wanted to go with him to Wellington, Jane still had to pull a sick manipulative game to force her into reconsidering her opinion.
Guess Clem was a puppy who couldn't make her own decisions in Jane's eyes.
Would you care to explain which part of my premise is wrong, instead of just dishing out an ad hominem? Or in other words: Even if I don't have the capability to analyse a situation, how does that make my satement fallacious?
It was self defense.
You do realize if you throw the first punch, you're automatically the aggressor, right?
It's typical knowledge. Lmao
Well, this is your opnion.
You're right. I'm just tired of posting the same thing over and over. But you can read my replies to Belan!
If you talk to Kenny afterwards and say that Jane didn't have to die, Kenny reponds that he would have stopped, if Jane had told him, that AJ is alive.
You once again, entirely missed the point. Obviously Kenny was the original aggressor. That goes without saying. That literally does not change what I said above at all though. Not even a little. At that point in time he had disengaged from the fight. Just because he had started it does not mean he can't possibly go on the defensive. He was fighting for his life. He wasn't trying to fight Jane outside. She followed him outside after he disengaged and then tried to kill him. This is very simple stuff.
I'll say once again that Jane was also the one who turned the fight into a fight to the death. Just because Kenny was being physical with her does not mean he was trying to kill her. Saying otherwise is completely baseless. After Jane started using lethal force Kenny wanted no part of it.
Oops, meant to reply to the regular thread, not yours.
Your evidence is pretty thin and there are more likely ways to interpret it. "You're 90% of the reason I came back" just means that Jane likes Clem more than other people in the group. There's nothing crazy or selfish about that.
"I did this for you, for us" and "I can't do this alone" means that Jane is shifting from a lone wolf into a group member again and that she's becoming family with Clem. Lots of people make new families in TWD. Kenny and Clem were family. Lee and Clem were family. No one called them selfish for becoming family.
Jane has been shut down for so long that when she starts to care for someone again, she wants to protect them. There's no convincing evidence that Jane considers Clem the new Jamie or that Jane wants Clem all to herself. In the Howe's ending where you let the family in, Jane isn't sure it's a good idea but it's not like she demands that Clem kick them out so she can have Clem all to herself. Jane was trying to protect Clem from Kenny's madness and made a mistake underestimating how far Kenny would go. She wasn't trying to keep Clem all to herself.
I really do not understand what your post has to do with the points that I made, but..
Definitely not.
That wasn't her intention. She wanted to bring out the worst in Kenny. She was not looking for a peaceful solution. That would have totally gone against what she was trying to do in the first place. She was trying to paint Kenny in a bad light for Clem. If Kenny did what she asked him to, she would have proven nothing... and would have looked incredibly foolish and sick once she had to admit what kind of twisted stunt she had just tried to pull. She was counting on Kenny giving her a violent reaction.
If she truly only wanted peace, she would admit that the baby was still alive.
That doesn't mean that you don't try to rationalize. Jane didn't want to do that though, because it went against the agenda of getting him to flip out.
Exactly. He would have no reason to continue fighting if AJ was potentially somewhere out there alive.
That may be true. but it's very easy to say certain things after the hell is over. and even if it was in fact the truth. I would never let Kenny kill Jane over an "accident".
Do we really know that he WOULD have stopped, though? I'm not sure he actually would. He wasn't "All there" after he heard that AJ "died". I wouldn't be surprised if he kept attempting to murder Jane even if she HAD said AJ was alright.
Although, Jane never even attempted to stop him by saying that, so she was out for blood as much as he was.
When he's saying 'Kenny doesn't put Clem in danger once', looking at determinant actions is useful. Otherwise we don't have full understanding of a character.
There is nothing to analyse for Kenny and Jane knows that. And that Jane wants a fight to the death, becomes apparent when they are fighting outside:
Kenny: I'll fuckin kill you!
Jane: I... knew you would...
Again Jane sets Kenny up, because she perfectly knows, that Kenny will assume that she killed AJ. And that this will make Kenny snap. She has Kenny on the ground multiple times and she doesn't stop, because she wants Kenny dead. None of the fighting would have happened, if Jane just went into the building with AJ.
He was never really necessarily attempting to murder her though. He only killed her once it had become a fight to the death. Fighting doesn't necessarily = trying to murder someone... right? He doesn't try to do anything lethal to her until he picks up her knife and finishes her off after she had just gotten done trying to gouge out his eye..
I think Kenny would have stopped if told that AJ was alive. That was all that he cared about. If he was potentially out there somewhere he would probably want to get to him immediately.
She can save herself by saying that AJ is alive in that car over there.
Kenny: How could you kill a FUCKING CHILD?!
Jane: I didin't kill him! It was an ACCIDENT, Kenny.
Kenny: BULLSHIT!
Jane: I won't back down from you, Kenny.
Kenny: SHUT UP!
Jane: I'm warning you.
Clementine: Kenny let her talk!
Kenny: I'm done talkin', Clem.
Jane: Clem! stay back.
..And after that she put her knife back in its holster, and Kenny pushes her against the glass door. so, Yeah! He definitely attacked her first.
All Kenny dialogs make it clear that he wasn't interested in talking anymore. he had already decided the fact that Jane left AJ to die. and so he would kill her.
Nope. she was trying to show to Clem that Kenny was already a bad painting. and not only Jane warned that. all the people in the group at some point expressed concerns with the explosive behavior of Kenny. this wasn't the first time. the difference is that Jane was the only person brave enough to face him. while others fled..
If Kenny had acted civilly. he would have proven to Jane that she was wrong about him. that he was not that broken, uncontrolled and emotionally unbalanced man. And then Jane would have told him the whole truth about AJ. but unfortunately that's not how things happened ..
I was replying to you saying that I had forgotten that Kenny had attacked first. I wasn't saying that Kenny did not attack first, I was saying that I hadn't forgotten that he did.
Nah. You're coming to that conclusion all on your own. And sure, Kenny wasn't interested in talking. That doesn't mean he would not have listened to rationalization. Of course saying "It was an accident" isn't going to be enough to calm down a parent/guardian/protector who feels like their child has been murdered.
Different word choice, same exact thing I was trying to say. She wanted to show Kenny in a certain light all the same. She was willing to twist reality in order to push her agenda and get what she wanted. It was ridiculously immoral and unfair to Kenny.
Not in the context that Jane was trying to prove. Kenny never intentionally tried to hurt a group member before. Jane intentionally set him up so he would try to do so. It was sick and twisted, even if she had good intentions for Clem.
Again, not comparable situations. You're comparing her maybe killing his kid to him arguing over plans + beating up an enemy to the group who had gotten a group member killed. Kenny never threatened to hurt anyone who didn't harm his family.
A parent/guardian who thinks their child has been murdered is not going to act civil to the supposed guilty individual. Especially if that individual refuses to rationalize what they did. You're not being realistic here.
Would she have? Her whole plan would have come down crashing on her head. Kenny would have ditched her, and Clem probably would have too unless she decided to be a scumbag and ditch Kenny anyway. Either way, Jane would greatly risk losing Clem.