He does need the baby. If you let Kenny kill Jane and then point your gun at him, he says: "Do it.", which means he doesn't want to live anymore, besides the fact he was already broken after Jane told him AJ died.
So, using your Logic, Kenny is selfish too for needing the baby for himself to survive mentally.
That is fan made speculation. No wh… moreere in the game is this proven or hinted to.
He helped bring the baby into the world when no one else could, and immediately started taking care of it as Rebecca was trying to recover. There are other reasons for him taking care of the baby besides him trying survive mentally.
Even if you are correct in your assumption, you are not really talking about a conscious decision.
Doesn't prove anything specific unfortunately. And even if it did, that doesn't mean there were not any other reasons for him caring for the baby besides helping his own sanity.
Honestly, when did caring for a parent-less baby ever become a selfish thing to do. It really doesn't even matter what his reasons were. He wasn't the only one benefiting.
He also gives the baby up (all on his own) once he finds a safe place for him. That alone kind of proves he was more concerned about the baby's safety than he was being possessive of it.
He does need the baby. If you let Kenny kill Jane and then point your gun at him, he says: "Do it.", which means he doesn't want to live anymore, besides the fact he was already broken after Jane told him AJ died.
Oh, I'm not saying he only cared about the baby to help himself. That was only a part of it. I think he was also fond of the baby, and wanted to raise him well, unlike what happened sometimes with Duck.
Doesn't prove anything specific unfortunately. And even if it did, that doesn't mean there were not any other reasons for him caring for the… more baby besides helping his own sanity.
Honestly, when did caring for a parent-less baby ever become a selfish thing to do. It really doesn't even matter what his reasons were. He wasn't the only one benefiting.
He also gives the baby up (all on his own) once he finds a safe place for him. That alone kind of proves he was more concerned about the baby's safety than he was being possessive of it.
Oh, I'm not saying he only cared about the baby to help himself. That was only a part of it. I think he was also fond of the baby, and wanted to raise him well, unlike what happened sometimes with Duck.
Kenny would not have snapped, if she didn't pull of her stunt.
I'm no Jane apologist by any means, but what her stunt showed was what Kenny was capable of in the event of AJ actually dying. Say Jane legitimately did lose AJ in the storm to a walker or something purely by accident. Kenny would have done exactly what he did, with no interest in hearing her side. He'd have tried to kill her, and he'd be in the wrong. Jane was only in the wrong because of what she did, but even with her ill thought out plan, Jane proved that Kenny was indeed a bomb waiting to go off.
Kenny might as well have recovered from his psychological trauma over time.
Maybe, but not even Kenny shares that optimism. He knows he's a danger to Clem.
You forget one thing about Jane. Jane doesn't stop the fight, when she has Kenny on the ground. Even at the end, when Kenny is about to stab… more her, Jane does not reveal that AJ is still alive, she rather calls for Clem to kill Kenny.
Jane escalates the situation that is her intention right from the start. What Jane apologists forget is, that Kenny would not have snapped, if she didn't pull of her stunt. And those who say that Jane merely showed Kennys true colours, don't know what would have happened, if Jane had not done what she did. Kenny might as well have recovered from his psychological trauma over time.
She never actually calls for Clem to kill Kenny. When you have someone on top of you who's about to jam a knife in your chest, "Help!" seems like a reasonable thing to call out. Revealing that AJ was still alive would have been a lot better, yes. Jane fucked up royally. But that doesn't excuse what Kenny did. Suppose she wasn't lying about AJ. Think about what Kenny did. He murdered a member of the group based on the assumption that they did something wrong. He refused to listen to her explain herself and just acted. I distinctly remember another group member doing something quite similar and I believe that Kenny's advice back then was "Leave her for the walkers."
I didn't see signs of Kenny getting better over time. Quite the opposite, in fact. Yeah, he apologizes for some of the things he does, but then goes right back to doing them again. The way he treated Arvo was despicable and Carver-esque. And he didn't do it because the kid did something monstrous or wronged him in some way. He did it because he was pissed off. Because the kid after days of being berated and abused by him decided to (verbally) lash out. And for that, Kenny beat his face bloody. All that was missing was a walkie-talkie in his hand. That's not recovery.
You forget one thing about Jane. Jane doesn't stop the fight, when she has Kenny on the ground. Even at the end, when Kenny is about to stab… more her, Jane does not reveal that AJ is still alive, she rather calls for Clem to kill Kenny.
Jane escalates the situation that is her intention right from the start. What Jane apologists forget is, that Kenny would not have snapped, if she didn't pull of her stunt. And those who say that Jane merely showed Kennys true colours, don't know what would have happened, if Jane had not done what she did. Kenny might as well have recovered from his psychological trauma over time.
And you assume that Kenny was so different? he just did what he wanted. no matter what you say to him. no matter what everyone was talking to him, he wouldn't listen to anyone ..
Jane never manipulated Clem, she was just trying to show Clem the actions of a broken man. manipulation is something completely different..
Tell that to Jane.
Even if my Clem made clear to her she trusted Kenny no matter what and wanted to go with him to Wellington, Jane still… more had to pull a sick manipulative game to force her into reconsidering her opinion.
Guess Clem was a puppy who couldn't make her own decisions in Jane's eyes.
Simply fighting doesn't mean he's trying to kill her, but I think he might have been set on killing her as soon as he assumed AJ had been killed by her. I'll grant that Jane was the first one who actually escalated things to lethal levels by slashing him across the stomach, and that until that point we have no idea if Kenny truly intended to kill her or not, but I can't shake the feeling that he was trying to end her. However, it WAS Jane who pushed him that far and counted on killing him. I still believe that Jane was in the wrong, but I can't look at that scene without thinking that Kenny had finally lost it.
I certainly agree that Kenny was well within his rights to kill Jane, however, as she knew exactly what he would do once she carried out her plan. She even says as much during the fight that she knew exactly how far it would go.
wouldn't be surprised if he kept attempting to murder Jane even if she HAD said AJ was alright.
He was never really necessarily atte… morempting to murder her though. He only killed her once it had become a fight to the death. Fighting doesn't necessarily = trying to murder someone... right? He doesn't try to do anything lethal to her until he picks up her knife and finishes her off after she had just gotten done trying to gouge out his eye..
I think Kenny would have stopped if told that AJ was alive. That was all that he cared about. If he was potentially out there somewhere he would probably want to get to him immediately.
Again, I think selfish is the wrong word to use here. She didn't do what she did for herself. She did it to show Clem how violent and dangerous Kenny can be when he gets it in his head that you wronged him. After Kenny starts the fight, she did seem pretty fine with continuing it, but she never got to the point when she was about to kill him and pressed on. Would she have? I don't know. But Kenny did.
I agree. What Jane did was fucked up and stupid. I'm not denying that. But her intentions, as I saw them, were geared towards keeping Clementine safe. Kenny's intentions, on the other hand, involved nothing but vengeance and bloodlust. That's selfishness. And it's not the first time this has happened. Remember back at the house after the ice collapsed? Who was the one who pulled Clem out of the lake, built a fire to keep her warm and found supplies for her? Who was the one beating a defenseless kid bloody in front of her for no goddamn reason?
That may be true, but that doesn't mean you completely try and ruin someone in the process. What Jane did was very selfish and immoral.
A… morend if her whole plan was only about protecting Clem, why didn't she try stopping the fight instead of escalating it to the point where someone needed to die? At any given time she could have said the baby was still alive in the truck. She had already proven what she wanted to prove about Kenny having a violent reaction, she didn't need to take it as far she did. She wanted to fight.
Also, Clem should be able to make these decisions on her own without Jane trying to manipulate her way of thinking.
Jane never explained anything to Kenny nor to Clem. She just babbled that it ws an accident. She was purpesfully vague, because giving a perfectly reasonable explanation might not have ticked Kenny off enough and she knew that.
Kenny would have done exactly what he did, with no interest in hearing her side. He'd have tried to kill her
Kenny didn't try to kill her until Jane went after him outside. When they go outside, just tell Jane to back off and she will respond with:
No Clem, it's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery.
Maybe, but not even Kenny shares that optimism. He knows he's a danger to Clem.
Kenny does in fact recover when you don't shoot him. And he seems a lot more relaxed right before he discovers Wellington, if you chose to go with him.
Kenny would not have snapped, if she didn't pull of her stunt.
I'm no Jane apologist by any means, but what her stunt showed was wha… moret Kenny was capable of in the event of AJ actually dying. Say Jane legitimately did lose AJ in the storm to a walker or something purely by accident. Kenny would have done exactly what he did, with no interest in hearing her side. He'd have tried to kill her, and he'd be in the wrong. Jane was only in the wrong because of what she did, but even with her ill thought out plan, Jane proved that Kenny was indeed a bomb waiting to go off.
Kenny might as well have recovered from his psychological trauma over time.
Maybe, but not even Kenny shares that optimism. He knows he's a danger to Clem.
She never actually calls for Clem to kill Kenny. When you have someone on top of you who's about to jam a knife in your chest, "Help!" seems… more like a reasonable thing to call out. Revealing that AJ was still alive would have been a lot better, yes. Jane fucked up royally. But that doesn't excuse what Kenny did. Suppose she wasn't lying about AJ. Think about what Kenny did. He murdered a member of the group based on the assumption that they did something wrong. He refused to listen to her explain herself and just acted. I distinctly remember another group member doing something quite similar and I believe that Kenny's advice back then was "Leave her for the walkers."
I didn't see signs of Kenny getting better over time. Quite the opposite, in fact. Yeah, he apologizes for some of the things he does, but then goes right back to doing them again. The way he treated Arvo was despicable and Carver-esque. And he didn't do it because the kid did so… [view original content]
Also, Clem should be able to make these decisions on her own without Jane trying to manipulate her way of thinking.
I agree completely with this sentiment - unfortunately the game never gives us (Clem) any choice in the matter.
I wanted in on the let's steal the car and ditch psycho-Kenny (not Jane though) plan.
I wanted some chance to say; "Kenny - even when you're calm, all I'm waiting for is the next time you snap and have a violent outburst. I cannot live like this. I think we should split up the group, and divide our supplies evenly. No hard feelings, but I don't feel safe in your company"
Sadly that never becomes an option. Now granted it would've left us with a somewhat anti-climactic ending; "And then Team Bike, Jane, Clem, Arvo and AJ arrive at Howe's, whilst Kenny is trekking north searching for his paradise - getting lucky, real lucky".
That may be true, but that doesn't mean you completely try and ruin someone in the process. What Jane did was very selfish and immoral.
A… morend if her whole plan was only about protecting Clem, why didn't she try stopping the fight instead of escalating it to the point where someone needed to die? At any given time she could have said the baby was still alive in the truck. She had already proven what she wanted to prove about Kenny having a violent reaction, she didn't need to take it as far she did. She wanted to fight.
Also, Clem should be able to make these decisions on her own without Jane trying to manipulate her way of thinking.
And the fact that I can't really argue against this, is my biggest gripe with the game - All I want is to leave Kenny - and there's never a chance. My Clem should have wanted to leave Kenny, but alas.
And I find it hilarious that the argument that Jane only does what Jane wants is being proposed as a way to show that Kenny is better than Jane.
If anyone in the game is too stubborn and arrogant to ever do anything other than he/she wants, it's Kenny... Mister. My plan is always the only way forward!
Kenny very much puts Clem in danger. His actions are the direct reason the group splits up, leaving them weaker - aka putting Clem in danger. All because he's too stubborn to even consider input from others. And talking of what Clem wants. That's another thing that doesn't enter in to Kenny's plans. All I did was argue with the group against Kenny and his asinine plans - still I was forced north with him, my wishes ignored because Kenny knows best.
The thing is she's selfish because she wants to keep Clem to herself. Bonnie asks what does Clem want and that's something to really conside… morer here. Jane doesn't do what Clem wants. Jane does what JANE wants. She knows Clem wouldn't just leave Kenny so she has to force it. THAT is what's selfish here. She isn't really considering Clem's feelings and puts AJ in danger just to get her way. However Kenny doesn't put Clem or AJ in danger once and instead protects them even going so far as to giving them up in order to help them. Basically to sum it up Jane will compromise AJ's wellbeing to help herself, whereas Kenny will compromise himself in order to help Clem or AJ.
It might be because his way of dealing with dissent was "Shut the fuck up - my way or the highway bitches".
If he was perhaps willing to discuss matters more calmly. Was willing to not constantly act like a crazy person (I. E continually beating up their bound prisoner because his walking pace was too slow - even though they had a person walking on a crutch). He might have been able to talk the group in to his plans if his main argument wasn't the age old classic "Because I said so".
He isn't. People tend to sometimes think he is because his opinions fall in the minority.. but he was always looking out for the interest of… more the group. For everyone refusing to get on board with his plans, he turned out to be correct though. If I were him, I would be very frustrated as well.
If anyone was selfish it was the group around him. Whenever they really needed his help they came crawling, but the minute they disagreed with one of his plans, he would just become some crazy suicidal idiot in their minds.
She never actually calls for Clem to kill Kenny. When you have someone on top of you who's about to jam a knife in your chest, "Help!" seems like a reasonable thing to call out.
I recommend you replay that scene and don't pick up the gun. Jane only calls for "help" when she sees Clem pointing the gun at Kenny.
Suppose she wasn't lying about AJ. Think about what Kenny did. He murdered a member of the group based on the assumption that they did something wrong.
Now what exactly did Jane explain? She just claims once that it was an accident. That's it. She makes no real attempt at explaining anything. And she has plenty of time. And that's where the Lilly situation was fundamentally different. Lilly interrogates Ben. There is quite a lot of talking on Lillys, Bens and Dougs/Carleys side. Lilly has no real reason or evidence that any of them cooperated with the bandits and she arbitrarily executes one of them without being threatened. Kenny on the other hand is set up by Jane to believe that AJ is dead, so he a) has a good reason to believe what he believes and b) he gets cut up by Jane before he gets a hold of her knife and stabs her.
She never actually calls for Clem to kill Kenny. When you have someone on top of you who's about to jam a knife in your chest, "Help!" seems… more like a reasonable thing to call out. Revealing that AJ was still alive would have been a lot better, yes. Jane fucked up royally. But that doesn't excuse what Kenny did. Suppose she wasn't lying about AJ. Think about what Kenny did. He murdered a member of the group based on the assumption that they did something wrong. He refused to listen to her explain herself and just acted. I distinctly remember another group member doing something quite similar and I believe that Kenny's advice back then was "Leave her for the walkers."
I didn't see signs of Kenny getting better over time. Quite the opposite, in fact. Yeah, he apologizes for some of the things he does, but then goes right back to doing them again. The way he treated Arvo was despicable and Carver-esque. And he didn't do it because the kid did so… [view original content]
You're coming to that conclusion all on your own. And sure, Kenny wasn't interested in talking. That doesn't mean he would not have listened to rationalization.
Kenny stopped rationalizing the moment he lost Sarita. is it really so hard to see? Seeing a fact is different than ignore it.
Different word choice, same exact thing I was trying to say.
Nope. These are two completely different concepts of one another..
What you mean is that she was distorting reality to please herself. whereas what I meant. It's that she was trying to show a reality that was already there from the beginning and that was negatively affecting all the people around. this is a fact, and there are no arguments against facts.
Not in the context that Jane was trying to prove. Kenny never intentionally tried to hurt a group member before. Jane intentionally set him up so he would try to do so. It was sick and twisted.
When everyone in your group are terrified and distressed about the fact that you are going Nuclear with everyone, not listen to anyone but yourself. and is willing to beat the shit of an unarmed and handcuffed boy. yes there is! the context that you may at some point lose your head and hurt or even kill someone close.
What Jane was trying to prove was what everyone feared becoming true. but no one was willing to stay until the end to see it become reality.
I agree with you that it was not the perfect plan. but it was hardly something sick and twisted. I would call it an inappropriate plan. and a desperate attempt to show someone that you care. that try to find a city that supposedly can not even exist, in the middle of a blizzard infested with walkers is, to say the least. a completely reckless and crazy attitude!! is almost like asking to die... If Kenny had listened to Jane and turned back to Howe's Hardware. a place with a solid structure, which still had much of the supplies and baby formula for AJ. a place they knew exactly where it was located and that was less than an hour away. none of this would have happened. but of course not .. because Kenny is very proud and selfish to admit that someone has a better idea than him .. if he was rationalizing as you say, he would have explained the reasons to go to Wellington, but instead, what he said?
"- Tell you what, we can turn around just as soon as you pry this from my cold wheel, dead fingers. How's that sound?"
It seems someone able to rationalize to you? or someone who really cares about two children? in other words he said: I'd rather freeze to death than agree to your plan. even if it seemed much wiser than mine...
Would she have? Her whole plan would have come down crashing on her head. Kenny would have ditched her, and Clem probably would have too unless she decided to be a scumbag and ditch Kenny anyway.
So now you're saying that all people who choose to shoot Kenny are scumbags. what makes you think that your decisions are better than others? it really doesn't count to your advantage in this debate sir. nor in favor of Kenny.
Kenny pushes her against the glass door. so, Yeah! He definitely attacked her first.
I was replying to you saying that I had forgott… moreen that Kenny had attacked first. I wasn't saying that Kenny did not attack first, I was saying that I hadn't forgotten that he did.
All Kenny dialogs make it clear that he wasn't interested in talking anymore. he had already decided the fact that Jane left AJ to die. and so he would kill her
Nah. You're coming to that conclusion all on your own. And sure, Kenny wasn't interested in talking. That doesn't mean he would not have listened to rationalization. Of course saying "It was an accident" isn't going to be enough to calm down a parent/guardian/protector who feels like their child has been murdered.
Nope. she was trying to show to Clem that Kenny was already a bad painting.
Different word choice, same exact thing I was trying to say. She wanted to show Kenny in a certain lig… [view original content]
Its kind hard to say for sure on either way to be honest. I can see why people would think that though. Personally I think if Jane truly cared about Clem in of herself, she would have talked to her about Kenny at length instead of taking matters into her own hands in such a dangerous fashion with complete disregard as to how Clem actually felt about it. It also seems a little too suspiciously coincidental that she pulled this stunt right after a really bad argument with Kenny.
I agree. What Jane did was fucked up and stupid. I'm not denying that. But her intentions, as I saw them, were geared towards keeping Clementine safe.
And that is all well and good for Clementine, but it just crazy unfair and twisted to do to Kenny... especially since she had a pretty good idea on how he would take it. That's all I am really trying to argue for. I guess we seem to be on the same page there though.
Kenny's intentions, on the other hand, involved nothing but vengeance and bloodlust. That's selfishness. And it's not the first time this has happened. Remember back at the house after the ice collapsed? Who was the one who pulled Clem out of the lake, built a fire to keep her warm and found supplies for her? Who was the one beating a defenseless kid bloody in front of her for no goddamn reason?
Kenny for sure isn't perfect, though he generally has nothing but good intentions. While I can understand what happened with Arvo, he shouldn't have done it and he knows it (he admits to it if you take him up on it). I can't fault him for becoming furious with the baby incident though, even though what he did there was technically wrong in of itself. Basically anyone would have been crazy furious in that position. Replace Kenny with Rebecca in that scene and I'm pretty sure she would completely flip out on Jane. Overall I wouldn't say he is a selfish man, but he can let his anger cloud his selflessness at times.
Again, I think selfish is the wrong word to use here. She didn't do what she did for herself. She did it to show Clem how violent and danger… moreous Kenny can be when he gets it in his head that you wronged him. After Kenny starts the fight, she did seem pretty fine with continuing it, but she never got to the point when she was about to kill him and pressed on. Would she have? I don't know. But Kenny did.
I agree. What Jane did was fucked up and stupid. I'm not denying that. But her intentions, as I saw them, were geared towards keeping Clementine safe. Kenny's intentions, on the other hand, involved nothing but vengeance and bloodlust. That's selfishness. And it's not the first time this has happened. Remember back at the house after the ice collapsed? Who was the one who pulled Clem out of the lake, built a fire to keep her warm and found supplies for her? Who was the one beating a defenseless kid bloody in front of her for no goddamn reason?
Oh yeah, Kenny was SUCH A MONSTER in the endings where you get with him to Wellington...
Yeah, indeed.
"If she had said he was safe I'… mored stopped. Geez, Clementine, I didn't want to do that but... but..." "Take the kid and the baby, you can make room for them. Please, I need to know they will be safe." "Go Clem, go to a place where you can be kid for a while... you don't want to sleep with a gun next to you every day. A place where you and AJ will be safe."
100% Carverish. Totally.
He's so Carverish Carver isn't so Carverish after comparing him and Carver in terms on who's more like Carver in terms of Carverism.
It shouldn't matter what Jane's intentions were. There is nothing right about using a baby as an instrument to prove a point, especially if it inadvertently ends with an eleven year old killing a man she had known for years, and that man is still grieving after a loved-one's death no more than 4 days prior. Especially if her plan had the possible result of Kenny and Clem not finding AJ in the car if she were to die.
It doesn't matter if Kenny was like Carver if Jane is worse. Not even Carver would put AJ at risk over something so superficial.
Your evidence is pretty thin and there are more likely ways to interpret it. "You're 90% of the reason I came back" just means that Jane lik… morees Clem more than other people in the group. There's nothing crazy or selfish about that.
"I did this for you, for us" and "I can't do this alone" means that Jane is shifting from a lone wolf into a group member again and that she's becoming family with Clem. Lots of people make new families in TWD. Kenny and Clem were family. Lee and Clem were family. No one called them selfish for becoming family.
Jane has been shut down for so long that when she starts to care for someone again, she wants to protect them. There's no convincing evidence that Jane considers Clem the new Jamie or that Jane wants Clem all to herself. In the Howe's ending where you let the family in, Jane isn't sure it's a good idea but it's not like she demands that Clem kick them out so she can have Clem all to herself. Jane was try… [view original content]
Bravo...couldn't have put it better myself. I can understand why most players wouldn't want to accept this truth though...because it means y… moreou were tricked into killing Kenny by Jane's manipulations. I can willing admit she tricked me right up until she said the words "I did it for you, Clem". A horrible feeling passed though me when she said that....
Assuming she does tell Clem to kill Kenny, then fine, she wanted someone who was trying to kill her dead. That does put her more in the wrong, but it doesn't put Kenny in the right.
Kenny makes no attempt to listen to what Jane has to say. He just attacks. Once Jane claims that it was an accident, the thing to do is to hear her out on how it was an accident and then decide whether or not you believe her. Not outright assume that she's lying and go with it. It's what he did with Arvo and the supplies and look how that shit turned out. Notice that he never once asks Jane what happened, he just assumes that she killed AJ and acts on that. He never even saw a body, or a blood stain, or anything. He went outside, saw nothing, came back in, and decided that was enough to kill a woman.
What "real reason or evidence" did Kenny have that Jane killed the baby? The only reason he gives is that she never wanted to care for the baby. He was just suspicious of her, the same way Lilly was suspicious of Ben and Carley. If Lilly had attacked Carley physically and Carley had defended herself by wounding her, Lilly would have still been in the wrong.
She never actually calls for Clem to kill Kenny. When you have someone on top of you who's about to jam a knife in your chest, "Help!" seems… more like a reasonable thing to call out.
I recommend you replay that scene and don't pick up the gun. Jane only calls for "help" when she sees Clem pointing the gun at Kenny.
Suppose she wasn't lying about AJ. Think about what Kenny did. He murdered a member of the group based on the assumption that they did something wrong.
Now what exactly did Jane explain? She just claims once that it was an accident. That's it. She makes no real attempt at explaining anything. And she has plenty of time. And that's where the Lilly situation was fundamentally different. Lilly interrogates Ben. There is quite a lot of talking on Lillys, Bens and Dougs/Carleys side. Lilly has no real reason or evidence that any of them cooperated with the bandits and she arbitrarily executes one of them without being t… [view original content]
None of the fighting would have happened, if Jane just went into the building with AJ.
This much we can agree on.
Though then when the baby died later, perhaps Kenny bashes Clem's skull in, instead of it being directed at a prepared and ready Jane. Or perhaps he kills himself, or perhaps gives up and does nothing.
Jane's plan was hinging on Kenny's instability. In my playthrough he literally promised Clem that he wouldn't lose his temper like that again - and then he goes ahead and loses his temper.
There is nothing to analyse for Kenny and Jane knows that. And that Jane wants a fight to the death, becomes apparent when they are fighting… more outside:
Kenny: I'll fuckin kill you!
Jane: I... knew you would...
Again Jane sets Kenny up, because she perfectly knows, that Kenny will assume that she killed AJ. And that this will make Kenny snap. She has Kenny on the ground multiple times and she doesn't stop, because she wants Kenny dead. None of the fighting would have happened, if Jane just went into the building with AJ.
It shouldn't matter what Jane's intentions were. There is nothing right about using a baby as an instrument to prove a point, especially if … moreit inadvertently ends with an eleven year old killing a man she had known for years, and that man is still grieving after a loved-one's death no more than 4 days prior. Especially if her plan had the possible result of Kenny and Clem not finding AJ in the car if she were to die.
It doesn't matter if Kenny was like Carver if Jane is worse. Not even Carver would put AJ at risk over something so superficial.
Kenny swings one punch, Jane dodges, and then Jane gets out her knife, and all Kenny does is pace around, while Jane threatens she's not going to back down, then Jane says, "Don't come near me, you son of a bitch." Kenny looks down on the ground then he charges at her.
Assuming she does tell Clem to kill Kenny, then fine, she wanted someone who was trying to kill her dead. That does put her more in the wron… moreg, but it doesn't put Kenny in the right.
Kenny makes no attempt to listen to what Jane has to say. He just attacks. Once Jane claims that it was an accident, the thing to do is to hear her out on how it was an accident and then decide whether or not you believe her. Not outright assume that she's lying and go with it. It's what he did with Arvo and the supplies and look how that shit turned out. Notice that he never once asks Jane what happened, he just assumes that she killed AJ and acts on that. He never even saw a body, or a blood stain, or anything. He went outside, saw nothing, came back in, and decided that was enough to kill a woman.
What "real reason or evidence" did Kenny have that Jane killed the baby? The only reason he gives is that she never wanted to care for the baby. He was just sus… [view original content]
Kenny swings one punch, Jane dodges, and then Jane gets out her knife, and all Kenny does is pace around, while Jane threatens she's not goi… moreng to back down, then Jane says, "Don't come near me, you son of a bitch." Kenny looks down on the ground then he charges at her.
Even if it's Alvins, Carver would have still claimed the child as his own.
Still, I don't think Carver would stoop down to use someone else's child, either biological or adopted, as a means to manipulate them just so he could seem more righteous in the eyes of others. What Jane did is a despicable act that shouldn't ever be agreed upon.
Seriously. Who really thinks hiding an infant in a cold car in the middle of a harsh winter storm, and pretending the baby was dead so someone else could be demonized in a hypothetical situation, is a good thing? We've seen discussions on whether Kenny was crazy, and we've seen people explaining how Jane was the really the victim of Kenny's uncontrollable rage, but I don't ever recall anyone agreeing with Jane's actions as something justifiable.
Not even Carver would put AJ at risk over something so superficial.
But that's only because he believes it's his own child. No doubt he would use anyone else for his own purposes.
Okay, here's the thing, what did Kenny exactly sacrifice in his ending? Clem and AJ? They aren't his to give. All he did was beg for them to be let in, that's it. He even got to keep the supplies. I honestly don't see anything heroic about his actions.
Okay, here's the thing, what did Kenny exactly sacrifice in his ending? Clem and AJ? They aren't his to give. All he did was beg for them to… more be let in, that's it. He even got to keep the supplies. I honestly don't see anything heroic about his actions.
Kenny stopped rationalizing the moment he lost Sarita. is it really so hard to see? Seeing a fact is different than ignore it.
Wanna try providing some examples to compare to? He doesn't act noticeably different to me other than the fact that he is more irritable.
Nope. These are two completely different concepts of one another. What you mean is that she was distorting reality to please herself. whereas what I meant.
Why are you telling me what I meant to say? That makes no sense. I simply said Jane was trying to paint Kenny in a bad light. As in purposely put him in a situation where he will look bad. Whether the reality of the situation is legitimate or not was totally irrelevant as to what I was trying to argue there.
It's that she was trying to show a reality that was already there from the beginning and that was negatively affecting all the people around. this is a fact, and there are no arguments against facts.
You have no idea what she was for sure trying to do there. You're only speculating. There are not any "facts" here. And if there are any that I am not thinking of for some reason, you're not telling me any for whatever reason.
When everyone in your group are terrified and distressed about the fact that you are going Nuclear with everyone
He was not going "nuclear" with everyone what so ever. The only person he was treating poorly was Arvo. There are seriously no other examples of him treating people in a threatening or explosive way while the group was intact.
Again, maybe if you provide some examples I might be able to get on board with your argument, but I just replayed the episode not too long ago and he does not treat people in a threatening way at all. Lets be honest, the group simply did not like the fact that he beat up Arvo, and they did not want to get on board with his plan to go to Wellington. They thought his plan was suicide even though they clearly didn't really even know what they were talking about.
What Jane was trying to prove was what everyone feared becoming true. but no one was willing to stay until the end to see it become reality.
That is ridiculously unfair to Kenny though. Who knows if anything would have ever came into fruition if Jane didn't purposely force an issue to happen. And of course she did the worst possible thing that could have been done. Something that would have made anyone in Kenny's position insanely furious.
You also really don't have any proof that the group feared that Kenny would attack them.
I agree with you that it was not the perfect plan. but it was hardly something sick and twisted.
It was sick and twisted. Jane purposely took advantage of Kenny's grief stricken mentality. She purposely messed with his protective instincts. She purposely set Kenny up to fail. It doesn't matter if she had good intentions for Clem or not, she tried to ruin another man's life just to prove a point. There was no justification in doing that. There was no justification in forcing this issue on Clementine either. For this supposed idea of Jane wanting to keep Clem safe because of fearing a violent Kenny explosion, its pretty stupid that she purposely went out of her way to do her best to trigger that explosion.
try to find a city that supposedly can not even exist, in the middle of a blizzard infested with walkers is, to say the least. a completely reckless and crazy attitude!!
Umm... no. What do you mean supposedly can not even exist? That was just the opinion of a few individuals. That doesn't mean it was pointless to search for. The whole point of going up into that cold was that it was a defense against the walkers, and there was supposedly a safe haven there. Winter was the perfect time to try and find the place. Also I don't know what point you're trying to make in saying the area is infested with walkers.. when everywhere is infested with walkers.
f Kenny had listened to Jane and turned back to Howe's Hardware. a place with a solid structure, which still had much of the supplies and baby formula for AJ. a place they knew exactly where it was located and that was less than an hour away. none of this would have happened.
Oh, so now you're saying that Jane's sick plan was a result of her disagreeing with Kenny's plan? That is definitely a possibility. Not sure why you didn't consider it before.. along with all of these other "facts" (aka straight up assumptions) that you have.
because Kenny is very proud and selfish to admit that someone has a better idea than him
Complete guess work on your part. And no, you can't say Jane's idea was better. That's ridiculous. Kenny's plan was obviously very fruitful. None of your concerns were ever proven to be true. The risk was possibly higher because they didn't know if the place actually existed or not, but the reward was also higher.
if he was rationalizing as you say, he would have explained the reasons to go to Wellington, but instead, what he said? "- Tell you what, we can turn around just as soon as you pry this from my cold wheel, dead fingers. How's that sound?"
Wellington had already been explained. Everyone seemed to understand what it was. What was there not to get? It was a safe haven way up north.
And obviously he was not trying to talk it through with Jane there. He was simply telling her how it was going to be. If she didn't like she could leave.
All concerns about Kenny's plan turned out to be unfounded.
It seems someone able to rationalize to you? or someone who really cares about two children? in other words he said: I'd rather freeze to death than agree to your plan. even it seemed much wiser than mine..
The whole point was the two children. He thought Wellington was their best chance. He never implied that he would rather freeze to death than agree with someone else's plan... you're 100% speculating once again.
So now you're saying that all people who choose to shoot Kenny are scumbags. what makes you think that your decisions are better than others? it really doesn't count to your advantage in this debate sir. nor in favor of Kenny.
You clearly misread what I said. I was talking about Clem ditching Kenny even in the instance that he did not fall for Jane's twisted manipulation. Yay for constantly assuming things..
You're coming to that conclusion all on your own. And sure, Kenny wasn't interested in talking. That doesn't mean he would not have listened… more to rationalization.
Kenny stopped rationalizing the moment he lost Sarita. is it really so hard to see? Seeing a fact is different than ignore it.
Different word choice, same exact thing I was trying to say.
Nope. These are two completely different concepts of one another..
What you mean is that she was distorting reality to please herself. whereas what I meant. It's that she was trying to show a reality that was already there from the beginning and that was negatively affecting all the people around. this is a fact, and there are no arguments against facts.
Not in the context that Jane was trying to prove. Kenny never intentionally tried to hurt a group member before. Jane intentionally set him up so he would try to do so. It was sick and twisted.
When everyone in … [view original content]
There we go with someone else calling Jane selfish. Because coming back and helping the group and trying to save Clem from an abusive relationship is so selfish....
She had every chance and reason to ditch again.... yet she didn't.
She even had a chance to flat out kill the baby and act like it was an accident... Yet she didn't.
Jane did something stupid but it was far from because of "selfish" reasons... Seriously do people even know what that word means?
I thought the baby was fine, but you never knew, nevertheless i let Kenny kill Jane for her putting a stupid plan together, plus has anyone actually played the game Kenny has been the same person with the same actions since season 1, also rick grimes does worse stuff than him.
There we go with someone else calling Jane selfish. Because coming back and helping the group and trying to save Clem from an abusive relat… moreionship is so selfish....
She had every chance and reason to ditch again.... yet she didn't.
She even had a chance to flat out kill the baby and act like it was an accident... Yet she didn't.
Jane did something stupid but it was far from because of "selfish" reasons... Seriously do people even know what that word means?
Jane never explained anything to Kenny nor to Clem. She just babbled that it ws an accident. She was purpesfully vague, because giving a perfectly reasonable explanation might not have ticked Kenny off enough and she knew that.
This I will never understand about you Kenny apologist... Was she going to sit down with a cup tea about it while he was attacking her? I've lost count of the "she never even tried to explain" DID KENNY GIVE HER A FUCKING CHANCE TO? No of course not. You all ignore that part acting like she was the one that initiated the fight. Once again showing that ya'll are putting Kenny on a pedestal where he is absolved of all responsibility for his own actions. When someone is out for blood nothing but the other person's death would satisfy them. Kenny assumes she murdered the baby and would not listen to a word Jane said. "It was an aciddent Kenny" "BULLSHIT" He screams while she's talking. You know the only chance she had at talking and he yells at her making sure her words didn't come across.
I guess she should've explained AFTER he stabs her?
Jane never explained anything to Kenny nor to Clem. She just babbled that it ws an accident. She was purpesfully vague, because giving a per… morefectly reasonable explanation might not have ticked Kenny off enough and she knew that.
Kenny would have done exactly what he did, with no interest in hearing her side. He'd have tried to kill her
Kenny didn't try to kill her until Jane went after him outside. When they go outside, just tell Jane to back off and she will respond with:
No Clem, it's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery.
Maybe, but not even Kenny shares that optimism. He knows he's a danger to Clem.
Kenny does in fact recover when you don't shoot him. And he seems a lot more relaxed right before he discovers Wellington, if you chose to go with him.
Simply fighting doesn't mean he's trying to kill her, but I think he might have been set on killing her as soon as he assumed AJ had been ki… morelled by her. I'll grant that Jane was the first one who actually escalated things to lethal levels by slashing him across the stomach, and that until that point we have no idea if Kenny truly intended to kill her or not, but I can't shake the feeling that he was trying to end her. However, it WAS Jane who pushed him that far and counted on killing him. I still believe that Jane was in the wrong, but I can't look at that scene without thinking that Kenny had finally lost it.
I certainly agree that Kenny was well within his rights to kill Jane, however, as she knew exactly what he would do once she carried out her plan. She even says as much during the fight that she knew exactly how far it would go.
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He does need the baby. If you let Kenny kill Jane and then point your gun at him, he says: "Do it.", which means he doesn't want to live anymore, besides the fact he was already broken after Jane told him AJ died.
Doesn't prove anything specific unfortunately. And even if it did, that doesn't mean there were not any other reasons for him caring for the baby besides helping his own sanity.
Honestly, when did caring for a parent-less baby ever become a selfish thing to do. It really doesn't even matter what his reasons were. He wasn't the only one benefiting.
He also gives the baby up (all on his own) once he finds a safe place for him. That alone kind of proves he was more concerned about the baby's safety than he was being possessive of it.
Oh, I'm not saying he only cared about the baby to help himself. That was only a part of it. I think he was also fond of the baby, and wanted to raise him well, unlike what happened sometimes with Duck.
Ah. I guess I didn't really understand what you were getting at before then.
I'm no Jane apologist by any means, but what her stunt showed was what Kenny was capable of in the event of AJ actually dying. Say Jane legitimately did lose AJ in the storm to a walker or something purely by accident. Kenny would have done exactly what he did, with no interest in hearing her side. He'd have tried to kill her, and he'd be in the wrong. Jane was only in the wrong because of what she did, but even with her ill thought out plan, Jane proved that Kenny was indeed a bomb waiting to go off.
Maybe, but not even Kenny shares that optimism. He knows he's a danger to Clem.
She never actually calls for Clem to kill Kenny. When you have someone on top of you who's about to jam a knife in your chest, "Help!" seems like a reasonable thing to call out. Revealing that AJ was still alive would have been a lot better, yes. Jane fucked up royally. But that doesn't excuse what Kenny did. Suppose she wasn't lying about AJ. Think about what Kenny did. He murdered a member of the group based on the assumption that they did something wrong. He refused to listen to her explain herself and just acted. I distinctly remember another group member doing something quite similar and I believe that Kenny's advice back then was "Leave her for the walkers."
I didn't see signs of Kenny getting better over time. Quite the opposite, in fact. Yeah, he apologizes for some of the things he does, but then goes right back to doing them again. The way he treated Arvo was despicable and Carver-esque. And he didn't do it because the kid did something monstrous or wronged him in some way. He did it because he was pissed off. Because the kid after days of being berated and abused by him decided to (verbally) lash out. And for that, Kenny beat his face bloody. All that was missing was a walkie-talkie in his hand. That's not recovery.
And you assume that Kenny was so different? he just did what he wanted. no matter what you say to him. no matter what everyone was talking to him, he wouldn't listen to anyone ..
Jane never manipulated Clem, she was just trying to show Clem the actions of a broken man. manipulation is something completely different..
Simply fighting doesn't mean he's trying to kill her, but I think he might have been set on killing her as soon as he assumed AJ had been killed by her. I'll grant that Jane was the first one who actually escalated things to lethal levels by slashing him across the stomach, and that until that point we have no idea if Kenny truly intended to kill her or not, but I can't shake the feeling that he was trying to end her. However, it WAS Jane who pushed him that far and counted on killing him. I still believe that Jane was in the wrong, but I can't look at that scene without thinking that Kenny had finally lost it.
I certainly agree that Kenny was well within his rights to kill Jane, however, as she knew exactly what he would do once she carried out her plan. She even says as much during the fight that she knew exactly how far it would go.
Again, I think selfish is the wrong word to use here. She didn't do what she did for herself. She did it to show Clem how violent and dangerous Kenny can be when he gets it in his head that you wronged him. After Kenny starts the fight, she did seem pretty fine with continuing it, but she never got to the point when she was about to kill him and pressed on. Would she have? I don't know. But Kenny did.
I agree. What Jane did was fucked up and stupid. I'm not denying that. But her intentions, as I saw them, were geared towards keeping Clementine safe. Kenny's intentions, on the other hand, involved nothing but vengeance and bloodlust. That's selfishness. And it's not the first time this has happened. Remember back at the house after the ice collapsed? Who was the one who pulled Clem out of the lake, built a fire to keep her warm and found supplies for her? Who was the one beating a defenseless kid bloody in front of her for no goddamn reason?
Jane never explained anything to Kenny nor to Clem. She just babbled that it ws an accident. She was purpesfully vague, because giving a perfectly reasonable explanation might not have ticked Kenny off enough and she knew that.
Kenny didn't try to kill her until Jane went after him outside. When they go outside, just tell Jane to back off and she will respond with:
No Clem, it's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery.
Kenny does in fact recover when you don't shoot him. And he seems a lot more relaxed right before he discovers Wellington, if you chose to go with him.
Jeez can we let this Kenny V Jane BS go already?
I always thought Kenny was talking abut Carley's corpse when he said leave her for the walkers.
I agree completely with this sentiment - unfortunately the game never gives us (Clem) any choice in the matter.
I wanted in on the let's steal the car and ditch psycho-Kenny (not Jane though) plan.
I wanted some chance to say; "Kenny - even when you're calm, all I'm waiting for is the next time you snap and have a violent outburst. I cannot live like this. I think we should split up the group, and divide our supplies evenly. No hard feelings, but I don't feel safe in your company"
Sadly that never becomes an option. Now granted it would've left us with a somewhat anti-climactic ending; "And then Team Bike, Jane, Clem, Arvo and AJ arrive at Howe's, whilst Kenny is trekking north searching for his paradise - getting lucky, real lucky".
And the fact that I can't really argue against this, is my biggest gripe with the game - All I want is to leave Kenny - and there's never a chance. My Clem should have wanted to leave Kenny, but alas.
And I find it hilarious that the argument that Jane only does what Jane wants is being proposed as a way to show that Kenny is better than Jane.
If anyone in the game is too stubborn and arrogant to ever do anything other than he/she wants, it's Kenny... Mister. My plan is always the only way forward!
Kenny very much puts Clem in danger. His actions are the direct reason the group splits up, leaving them weaker - aka putting Clem in danger. All because he's too stubborn to even consider input from others. And talking of what Clem wants. That's another thing that doesn't enter in to Kenny's plans. All I did was argue with the group against Kenny and his asinine plans - still I was forced north with him, my wishes ignored because Kenny knows best.
It might be because his way of dealing with dissent was "Shut the fuck up - my way or the highway bitches".
If he was perhaps willing to discuss matters more calmly. Was willing to not constantly act like a crazy person (I. E continually beating up their bound prisoner because his walking pace was too slow - even though they had a person walking on a crutch). He might have been able to talk the group in to his plans if his main argument wasn't the age old classic "Because I said so".
I recommend you replay that scene and don't pick up the gun. Jane only calls for "help" when she sees Clem pointing the gun at Kenny.
Now what exactly did Jane explain? She just claims once that it was an accident. That's it. She makes no real attempt at explaining anything. And she has plenty of time. And that's where the Lilly situation was fundamentally different. Lilly interrogates Ben. There is quite a lot of talking on Lillys, Bens and Dougs/Carleys side. Lilly has no real reason or evidence that any of them cooperated with the bandits and she arbitrarily executes one of them without being threatened. Kenny on the other hand is set up by Jane to believe that AJ is dead, so he a) has a good reason to believe what he believes and b) he gets cut up by Jane before he gets a hold of her knife and stabs her.
Kenny stopped rationalizing the moment he lost Sarita. is it really so hard to see? Seeing a fact is different than ignore it.
Nope. These are two completely different concepts of one another..
What you mean is that she was distorting reality to please herself. whereas what I meant. It's that she was trying to show a reality that was already there from the beginning and that was negatively affecting all the people around. this is a fact, and there are no arguments against facts.
When everyone in your group are terrified and distressed about the fact that you are going Nuclear with everyone, not listen to anyone but yourself. and is willing to beat the shit of an unarmed and handcuffed boy. yes there is! the context that you may at some point lose your head and hurt or even kill someone close.
What Jane was trying to prove was what everyone feared becoming true. but no one was willing to stay until the end to see it become reality.
I agree with you that it was not the perfect plan. but it was hardly something sick and twisted. I would call it an inappropriate plan. and a desperate attempt to show someone that you care. that try to find a city that supposedly can not even exist, in the middle of a blizzard infested with walkers is, to say the least. a completely reckless and crazy attitude!! is almost like asking to die... If Kenny had listened to Jane and turned back to Howe's Hardware. a place with a solid structure, which still had much of the supplies and baby formula for AJ. a place they knew exactly where it was located and that was less than an hour away. none of this would have happened. but of course not .. because Kenny is very proud and selfish to admit that someone has a better idea than him .. if he was rationalizing as you say, he would have explained the reasons to go to Wellington, but instead, what he said?
"- Tell you what, we can turn around just as soon as you pry this from my cold wheel, dead fingers. How's that sound?"
It seems someone able to rationalize to you? or someone who really cares about two children? in other words he said: I'd rather freeze to death than agree to your plan. even if it seemed much wiser than mine...
So now you're saying that all people who choose to shoot Kenny are scumbags. what makes you think that your decisions are better than others? it really doesn't count to your advantage in this debate sir. nor in favor of Kenny.
Its kind hard to say for sure on either way to be honest. I can see why people would think that though. Personally I think if Jane truly cared about Clem in of herself, she would have talked to her about Kenny at length instead of taking matters into her own hands in such a dangerous fashion with complete disregard as to how Clem actually felt about it. It also seems a little too suspiciously coincidental that she pulled this stunt right after a really bad argument with Kenny.
And that is all well and good for Clementine, but it just crazy unfair and twisted to do to Kenny... especially since she had a pretty good idea on how he would take it. That's all I am really trying to argue for. I guess we seem to be on the same page there though.
Kenny for sure isn't perfect, though he generally has nothing but good intentions. While I can understand what happened with Arvo, he shouldn't have done it and he knows it (he admits to it if you take him up on it). I can't fault him for becoming furious with the baby incident though, even though what he did there was technically wrong in of itself. Basically anyone would have been crazy furious in that position. Replace Kenny with Rebecca in that scene and I'm pretty sure she would completely flip out on Jane. Overall I wouldn't say he is a selfish man, but he can let his anger cloud his selflessness at times.
She just walked into a door - right honey?
He's basically saying: "If the baby had been accidentally murdered, then I would be happy that I killed her."
It shouldn't matter what Jane's intentions were. There is nothing right about using a baby as an instrument to prove a point, especially if it inadvertently ends with an eleven year old killing a man she had known for years, and that man is still grieving after a loved-one's death no more than 4 days prior. Especially if her plan had the possible result of Kenny and Clem not finding AJ in the car if she were to die.
It doesn't matter if Kenny was like Carver if Jane is worse. Not even Carver would put AJ at risk over something so superficial.
I'm still baffled that there were people who didn't immediately know that the baby was fine.
And I shot Kenny - gladly! Finally free from the dictator.
Assuming she does tell Clem to kill Kenny, then fine, she wanted someone who was trying to kill her dead. That does put her more in the wrong, but it doesn't put Kenny in the right.
Kenny makes no attempt to listen to what Jane has to say. He just attacks. Once Jane claims that it was an accident, the thing to do is to hear her out on how it was an accident and then decide whether or not you believe her. Not outright assume that she's lying and go with it. It's what he did with Arvo and the supplies and look how that shit turned out. Notice that he never once asks Jane what happened, he just assumes that she killed AJ and acts on that. He never even saw a body, or a blood stain, or anything. He went outside, saw nothing, came back in, and decided that was enough to kill a woman.
What "real reason or evidence" did Kenny have that Jane killed the baby? The only reason he gives is that she never wanted to care for the baby. He was just suspicious of her, the same way Lilly was suspicious of Ben and Carley. If Lilly had attacked Carley physically and Carley had defended herself by wounding her, Lilly would have still been in the wrong.
This much we can agree on.
Though then when the baby died later, perhaps Kenny bashes Clem's skull in, instead of it being directed at a prepared and ready Jane. Or perhaps he kills himself, or perhaps gives up and does nothing.
Jane's plan was hinging on Kenny's instability. In my playthrough he literally promised Clem that he wouldn't lose his temper like that again - and then he goes ahead and loses his temper.
But that's only because he believes it's his own child. No doubt he would use anyone else for his own purposes.
But it's the end of the latest season - what else is there to talk about?
Kenny swings one punch, Jane dodges, and then Jane gets out her knife, and all Kenny does is pace around, while Jane threatens she's not going to back down, then Jane says, "Don't come near me, you son of a bitch." Kenny looks down on the ground then he charges at her.
You forgot the part where she puts her knife away. That's when Kenny charges at her. So yeah. His fault.
Still though, it feels like Jane is baiting Kenny to a fight.
The real main flaw is how was Jane going to fight off or subdue a guy that has 80 some odd pounds on her?
Even if it's Alvins, Carver would have still claimed the child as his own.
Still, I don't think Carver would stoop down to use someone else's child, either biological or adopted, as a means to manipulate them just so he could seem more righteous in the eyes of others. What Jane did is a despicable act that shouldn't ever be agreed upon.
Seriously. Who really thinks hiding an infant in a cold car in the middle of a harsh winter storm, and pretending the baby was dead so someone else could be demonized in a hypothetical situation, is a good thing? We've seen discussions on whether Kenny was crazy, and we've seen people explaining how Jane was the really the victim of Kenny's uncontrollable rage, but I don't ever recall anyone agreeing with Jane's actions as something justifiable.
Okay, here's the thing, what did Kenny exactly sacrifice in his ending? Clem and AJ? They aren't his to give. All he did was beg for them to be let in, that's it. He even got to keep the supplies. I honestly don't see anything heroic about his actions.
Well, by that same vein, what did Lee really sacrifice in his ending? He was already dying from the zombie bite. What was so heroic about what he did?
Wanna try providing some examples to compare to? He doesn't act noticeably different to me other than the fact that he is more irritable.
Why are you telling me what I meant to say? That makes no sense. I simply said Jane was trying to paint Kenny in a bad light. As in purposely put him in a situation where he will look bad. Whether the reality of the situation is legitimate or not was totally irrelevant as to what I was trying to argue there.
You have no idea what she was for sure trying to do there. You're only speculating. There are not any "facts" here. And if there are any that I am not thinking of for some reason, you're not telling me any for whatever reason.
He was not going "nuclear" with everyone what so ever. The only person he was treating poorly was Arvo. There are seriously no other examples of him treating people in a threatening or explosive way while the group was intact.
Again, maybe if you provide some examples I might be able to get on board with your argument, but I just replayed the episode not too long ago and he does not treat people in a threatening way at all. Lets be honest, the group simply did not like the fact that he beat up Arvo, and they did not want to get on board with his plan to go to Wellington. They thought his plan was suicide even though they clearly didn't really even know what they were talking about.
That is ridiculously unfair to Kenny though. Who knows if anything would have ever came into fruition if Jane didn't purposely force an issue to happen. And of course she did the worst possible thing that could have been done. Something that would have made anyone in Kenny's position insanely furious.
You also really don't have any proof that the group feared that Kenny would attack them.
It was sick and twisted. Jane purposely took advantage of Kenny's grief stricken mentality. She purposely messed with his protective instincts. She purposely set Kenny up to fail. It doesn't matter if she had good intentions for Clem or not, she tried to ruin another man's life just to prove a point. There was no justification in doing that. There was no justification in forcing this issue on Clementine either. For this supposed idea of Jane wanting to keep Clem safe because of fearing a violent Kenny explosion, its pretty stupid that she purposely went out of her way to do her best to trigger that explosion.
Umm... no. What do you mean supposedly can not even exist? That was just the opinion of a few individuals. That doesn't mean it was pointless to search for. The whole point of going up into that cold was that it was a defense against the walkers, and there was supposedly a safe haven there. Winter was the perfect time to try and find the place. Also I don't know what point you're trying to make in saying the area is infested with walkers.. when everywhere is infested with walkers.
Oh, so now you're saying that Jane's sick plan was a result of her disagreeing with Kenny's plan? That is definitely a possibility. Not sure why you didn't consider it before.. along with all of these other "facts" (aka straight up assumptions) that you have.
Complete guess work on your part. And no, you can't say Jane's idea was better. That's ridiculous. Kenny's plan was obviously very fruitful. None of your concerns were ever proven to be true. The risk was possibly higher because they didn't know if the place actually existed or not, but the reward was also higher.
Wellington had already been explained. Everyone seemed to understand what it was. What was there not to get? It was a safe haven way up north.
And obviously he was not trying to talk it through with Jane there. He was simply telling her how it was going to be. If she didn't like she could leave.
All concerns about Kenny's plan turned out to be unfounded.
The whole point was the two children. He thought Wellington was their best chance. He never implied that he would rather freeze to death than agree with someone else's plan... you're 100% speculating once again.
You clearly misread what I said. I was talking about Clem ditching Kenny even in the instance that he did not fall for Jane's twisted manipulation. Yay for constantly assuming things..
There we go with someone else calling Jane selfish. Because coming back and helping the group and trying to save Clem from an abusive relationship is so selfish....
She had every chance and reason to ditch again.... yet she didn't.
She even had a chance to flat out kill the baby and act like it was an accident... Yet she didn't.
Jane did something stupid but it was far from because of "selfish" reasons... Seriously do people even know what that word means?
I thought the baby was fine, but you never knew, nevertheless i let Kenny kill Jane for her putting a stupid plan together, plus has anyone actually played the game Kenny has been the same person with the same actions since season 1, also rick grimes does worse stuff than him.
Yeah, if only she hadn't told him that she wouldn't back down if he attacked her...
I don't think "son of a bitch" helps even with someone who is extremely pissed off.
To be fair, someone was calling Jane selfish 3 days ago.
Time to let it go.
This I will never understand about you Kenny apologist... Was she going to sit down with a cup tea about it while he was attacking her? I've lost count of the "she never even tried to explain" DID KENNY GIVE HER A FUCKING CHANCE TO? No of course not. You all ignore that part acting like she was the one that initiated the fight. Once again showing that ya'll are putting Kenny on a pedestal where he is absolved of all responsibility for his own actions. When someone is out for blood nothing but the other person's death would satisfy them. Kenny assumes she murdered the baby and would not listen to a word Jane said. "It was an aciddent Kenny" "BULLSHIT" He screams while she's talking. You know the only chance she had at talking and he yells at her making sure her words didn't come across.
I guess she should've explained AFTER he stabs her?
Fair enough.