And Kenny just needed to ask. Jane's plan was to show that Kenny wouldn't try to figure things out before attacking. Of course she isn't going to volunteer the information. She wants to show you that Kenny requires constant babysitting to ensure he won't do something stupid. That he's dangerous. All Kenny had to do to ruin her plan was stop to think for a second and ask what had happened.
It's the same reason she puts the knife away. With a normal person, putting the knife away would defuse the situation, it shows you don't want to fight. She wanted to show that instead of taking the opportunity to get his facts straight, Kenny was just hoping for an opening to hurt her. That he cares more about using violence to feel better than learning what is going on.
Yes, Jane could have defused the situation. So could have Kenny. Her point was, Kenny never would, even when given every chance.
That's not an explanation. It's a vague claim.
how could Jane explain it when she just said: ''It was an accident'' and Kenny immediat… moreely said: ''BULLSHIT'', he didn't even let her talk, at all.
Replay the scene and count all the occassions where they are silently watching each other. Jane just needs to open her mouth. There is no need to pretend, that she couldn't have defused the situation.
Jane never explained anything to Kenny nor to Clem. She just babbled that it ws an accident. She was purpesfully vague, because giving a per… morefectly reasonable explanation might not have ticked Kenny off enough and she knew that.
Kenny would have done exactly what he did, with no interest in hearing her side. He'd have tried to kill her
Kenny didn't try to kill her until Jane went after him outside. When they go outside, just tell Jane to back off and she will respond with:
No Clem, it's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery.
Maybe, but not even Kenny shares that optimism. He knows he's a danger to Clem.
Kenny does in fact recover when you don't shoot him. And he seems a lot more relaxed right before he discovers Wellington, if you chose to go with him.
Arvo gives constant death glares to clementine, no matter how nice you were to him. I don't recall him giving glares to anyone else besides… more Kenny. Does that not say something?
Also, Clem can be the one to rob Arvo as well, which gives him more incentive to shoot Clementine in revenge.
If you try to stop him from hitting Arvo, he hits Clem as well. By accident, true, but you can't even say he would never hurt Clem. He does if she gets in the way of him hurting someone else.
Kenny does put clem in danger once. He leaves her alone in the horde.
In fact he did it twice by being capable of refusing to save her in… more season 1.
In fact he did it thrice by being capable of leaving lee to die in season 1.
In fact he did it four times by continuously being horrible to arvo, beating him and abusing him which led him to shoot Clem.
Kenny is convinced she got rid of the baby, and that's exactly what such a person would say, so it's not a shocker he doesn't believe that.
Now "The baby is ALIVE, Kenny, I left him in the car, safe and sound !"
Would have triggered an entirely different reaction and you know it. Kenny could find this sudden turn of events dubious, but he'd still want to check, if there was any chance the baby was still alive he'd want to know and hold him in his arms again. He would have rushed to the car immediately.
Are you fucking kidding me, how could Jane explain it when she just said: ''It was an accident'' and Kenny immediately said: ''BULLSHIT'', he didn't even let her talk, at all.
Jane:
* She got them out of Carvers lair, you all know how bad that place is and if they stayed any longer Carver could've killed anoth… moreer member, raped, tortured? So she basically saved some lives here
* She killed Troy while he had the group at gunpoint. Nobody else had a gun... Also she was smart enough to make Troy a dinnerbell ( Distraction ) to make their escape easier.
* She saved Rebecca and Clementine from the herd.
* She saved Sarah and Luke from the trailer park, nobody else would've gone out looking for them. She did wanna save Sarah but she knew Sarah wasn't gonna make it. Also when Clementine tries to get Sarah out she tells Clementine to come out because if she stays any longer she could've died with Sarah (She saves Clem 3 times now)
* She found the observation deck which saved a couple lives
* She protected Clem from Arvo, what if Jane wasn't there and Arvo saw Clem? Who knows what would've happend then.
… [view original content]
Kenny got it in his head that Wellington meant safety, just as he'd gotten in his head that a boat meant safety in S1. Despite not having any evidence, just rumors. Anything that challenged that unfounded opinion was wrong and a threat. That's why he dislikes Jane despite everything she has done to help the group, she constantly challenges his "plan". Which makes her the enemy.
Once he got Clem to Wellington, he was "done". His task is fulfilled, he'd finished what he'd set out to do. Which kind of undermines this all being about Clem. It was all about him, proving to himself that it wasn't his fault he lost his family, that if he could take them to Wellington he'd be absolved. It's why he never gives Clem a choice. He's going to take you to Wellington, whether you want to go or not.
Yes he made a selfless act at Wellington but that is still based around the fact that he failed to project his family so he needs make up for that at least in his own head.
What? Where do you get that? Clem is basically family to him anyway.
And? It's everything that defines the motivations of her character. This is a thread for dissecting Jane's character. I'm not devolving to Kenny vs. Jane bullshit.
Abusive people always realize how wrong their abuse is and ask for forgiveness. And then they just keep on making the same mistakes. Him saying "Sorry" after the fact doesn't mean anything.
I'm with you before this EP If I was given a choice straight up I would have went with Jane she is level headed and a real survivor. The f… moreact she manipulated an 11 yr old into Killing the only guy she knew since this all broke out was just too much for my Clementine , Like Lee she may not have much she may have experienced so much loss so far but she will never lose her dignity.
Also when Clem is alone with Kenny he realizes the mistakes he has made and really opens up to Clem , I think if he had done this to the entire group things would have ended up much different. If they knew how he really felt and why he did some of the things he did . He's human . And Kenny has been in this situation before with the Boat and now Truck He may have made some mistakes over but not intentionally the man is just trying to keep Clem and AJ safe at all costs because lets face it the worst enemies in the world of the WD is the people not the Zombies.
First paragraph, you are right. What Jane did is indefensible. I'd quibble that she hadn't set out to prove herself better than Kenny, however. Not sure about her being a hypocrite.
However, Jane is not self serving, backstabbing, manipulative or dishonest. I'd much rather have her backing me up than Kenny, at least with her you know where you stand. Kenny instead gives in to his impulses, endangering everyone around him. Maybe if he'd not spent so much time caving Carver's head in, he could have helped Sarita. Maybe if he'd not used Arvo as a punching bag to take out his frustrations, he'd not have alienated the rest of the group and Clem wouldn't have been shot. Having a member of the group that everyone else has to work around so he doesn't go flying into a rage doesn't help the survival of the group.
But let's talk about Jane. Self serving? Jane never wanted to be with the group. She's terrified of being with other people because experience has taught her that groups will end up breaking down, cause her pain and maybe kill her. She joins the group against her better judgement because she likes Clem, and wants to teach her to be more self reliant so that when the group inevitable collapses, she'll have better odds of survival.
And she actually does teach her and equip her. She is the only one that notices that her hatchet (and her hammer before) is constantly getting stuck and she hands her a better tool. She teaches her a handy trick for disabling walkers while minimizing risk. She then hands her the nail file, and tells her the various things it can be used for.
And even though it put her at risk, she helped Rebecca walk out of the horde. For all her talk of how she doesn't like being with groups and not letting them drag her down, Jane consistently puts the group ahead of her comfort. Even when the group goes against her desires.
Backstabbing? She never betrays anyone. When she leaves, she doesn't even take any supplies beyond what she was carrying with her. She has no obligation towards the group, the group can't demand that she stay with them, so leaving is not a betrayal. And sleeping with Luke didn't give Luke a claim to her, so she's not betraying him either. It may not be the nicest thing to do, leaving in the middle of the night, but it's not a betrayal.
Dishonest? The only lie she ever says is saying that she lost AJ by accident. Saying one lie is not being dishonest. In every other situation she has always been upfront about her opinions and thoughts, even if it doesn't make her any friends. Which also goes against her being manipulative. A manipulative person tries to get people on their side, leverage feeling to get her way while disregarding the desires of others. Trying to convince a person of something is not being manipulative.
In all the time she was with the group, Jane made two serious mistakes. The first was taking Arvo's gun. She should have unloaded it and handed it back and the bullets separately. That way Arvo could reload it on his way back and everyone was safe. No harm no foul.
The second was the situation with the baby. Even if she was right about Kenny, she put everyone at risk trying to make Clementine see it.
Very good explanation. Whether people want to blame Kenny for his violent reaction or not, there is no way what Jane did in this situation s… morehould be considered morally acceptable. She didn't prove herself to be any better than Kenny. She was a huge hypocrite.
Say what you will about Kenny, but I would rather have him look after Clem any day of the week than a backstabbing, manipulative, dishonest, self serving person like Jane. At least Kenny had a good heart and meant well. Meanwhile he is easily as capable as Jane in regards to survival. I don't know why anyone would want Clem around Jane, yet be totally against Clem being around Kenny. It really doesn't make any sense at all.
Clem also had the role of "parent/guardian" to AJ. In fact, in some endings she's left alone with that role.
Why didn't she flip out and try to kill Jane, if that is the acceptable reaction? She had a lot more reason to think that something was wrong, with the things Jane says while Kenny runs out. But Clem wants to hear what she has to say, and she asks Kenny to back down.
Kenny pushes her against the glass door. so, Yeah! He definitely attacked her first.
I was replying to you saying that I had forgott… moreen that Kenny had attacked first. I wasn't saying that Kenny did not attack first, I was saying that I hadn't forgotten that he did.
All Kenny dialogs make it clear that he wasn't interested in talking anymore. he had already decided the fact that Jane left AJ to die. and so he would kill her
Nah. You're coming to that conclusion all on your own. And sure, Kenny wasn't interested in talking. That doesn't mean he would not have listened to rationalization. Of course saying "It was an accident" isn't going to be enough to calm down a parent/guardian/protector who feels like their child has been murdered.
Nope. she was trying to show to Clem that Kenny was already a bad painting.
Different word choice, same exact thing I was trying to say. She wanted to show Kenny in a certain lig… [view original content]
You can? My bad. I didn't personally play every ending, I was under the impression that Kenny alive meant going to Wellington (that the game didn't give you the option of disagreeing with him, only shooting him). Kinda sucks that you can't do so until either him or Jane are dead.
Totally agree with you here. I also saw right through her. She was provoking Kenny just to prove a point, despite their current situation in which the area is filled with walkers in the middle of a blizzard.
Seriously dude? how old are you? 14? Since it seems like you're walking in circles here. no matter what I tell you, you always end up saying the same thing .. over and over. or maybe you are conveniently ignoring it all for your own benefit
You have only been speculating/ making things up. Funny that you're calling me immature here.. seriously. Its just sad. I'm only looking for these supposed "facts" instead of you 100% speculating on everything. You aren't even talking about what actually happened in the game.. as in things you can concretely point to as for sure happening. Your guess work does not count as evidence by any means. Like I said before, feel free to guess and speculate all you want, but don't try to use that stuff to tell someone they are wrong about something. Its pointless.
everything to you seems to be speculation, you really can not deduce facts by yourself?
Let me give you the definition of fact.
Fact:A thing that is indisputably the case.
Yeah.. you haven't been doing anything of the sort. You're only guessing and grasping at straws. Again, not necessarily a bad thing, but don't use that to tell me I'm wrong.
That's all the definition you have to give me on this? based on that, I'll assume you didn't even listened to what Jane tried to tell you, you simply set that was a sick and twisted plan. like Kenny, you never listened to anyone in the group..
Wow. You realize we're talking about Jane's plan to get Kenny to flip out, right? I'm talking about looking back on the plan and how I see it now. Not how I saw it in the moment.
I wasn't talking about Jane's plan to go back to Carver's camp.
Again. you don't know it...
Again, just because you do not know for certain that a certain place exists does not mean you should not try and find it. Thank you for ignoring all my points on the matter. No clue what you think you're trying to prove.
Thank you. that was all I wanted to hear. Selfishness. and I think that puts an end to our discussion.
How is it selfishness? Kenny is the one who was able to get the truck to work, and he did so for his own plan. If he wants to take it on his own journey then he is free to do that. Mike and Bonnie clearly had no qualms with going their separate ways.
Seriously dude? how old are you? 14? Since it seems like you're walking in circles here. no matter what I tell you, you always end up saying… more the same thing .. over and over. or maybe you are conveniently ignoring it all for your own benefit .. everything to you seems to be speculation, you really can not deduce facts by yourself?
Sick, as in morally disturbing and twisted.
That's all the definition you have to give me on this? based on that, I'll assume you didn't even listened to what Jane tried to tell you, you simply set that was a sick and twisted plan. like Kenny, you never listened to anyone in the group..
Obviously no one had any proof at the time. But once again, that doesn't mean there was not merit in taking a chance. Wellington did end up being what it was claimed to be.
Again. you don't know it...
I really don't care. Kenny got the truck working, he can take it where he pleases.
Thank you.… [view original content]
She is an 11 year old girl, not a parental figure. I'm sure she had the baby's best interests at mind, but it isn't the same thing. She wouldn't attack Jane if Jane had out right admitted to killing it. Its just not in her nature, and not in the nature of really anyone that age.
Either way, good for Clem if she didn't think Jane killed the baby. Parental figures are still going to flip out in that situation.
Clem also had the role of "parent/guardian" to AJ. In fact, in some endings she's left alone with that role.
Why didn't she flip out and … moretry to kill Jane, if that is the acceptable reaction? She had a lot more reason to think that something was wrong, with the things Jane says while Kenny runs out. But Clem wants to hear what she has to say, and she asks Kenny to back down.
I think you might be right about Kenny. In his moments of self-clarity I do think he realises this.
However I think Jane is slightly diff… moreerent. I think Jane doesn't want to turn Clem in to her. At first this is what she's thinking, but as Clem reminds her of her sister, Jane slowly begins to - once again - be able to open up to people and actually bond with them. The way I see it, at the end of season 2 there's room for Jane's character to progress in a positive direction; more trusting and stronger for it. There's only room for Kenny's character to change in a negative direction; more anger, less control - making himself and his surroundings less safe.
Kenny reponds that he would have stopped, if Jane had told him, that AJ is alive.
If AJ was dead for a legitimate reason, Jane couldn't have told him that he was alive (well, I suppose she could have lied).
You then agreed.
He would have no reason to continue fighting if AJ was potentially somewhere out there alive
I'm pointing out that both these arguments boil down to the same conclusion: had AJ not been out there alive, if for example he was dead through no fault of Jane's, he would have had reason to continue fighting. I'm intending to explain that the entire reasoning is flawed.
Kenny didn't know what had happened to AJ, only that Jane claimed it had been an accident and she wasn't as cooperative as you think someone that had just lost a baby should be. He then starts a fight that becomes lethal, and kills Jane when he gets the upper hand.
So what would Kenny have said had AJ truly been dead? If they found his remains amid some dead walkers, for example, implying that Jane fought the walkers but lost the baby in the fight.
Saying that Jane didn't need to die because AJ was alive implies that if she'd truly lost him, she did deserve to die without giving her a chance to explain herself. He only shows remorse when the baby turns up alive. He thought the baby was dead up to that point, killed the person he held accountable, and he didn't care to learn how it died.
I was only talking about whether or not Kenny would stop the fight once he heard from Jane that AJ was alive somewhere. I wasn't talking about justification behind the reasoning of killing her not killing her in any situation. I was simply saying that Kenny would have no reason either way to keep fighting. I wasn't even necessarily saying he had reason before that (I think he did, but that is a whole different discussion).
HerrKazuya said:
Kenny reponds that he would have stopped, if Jane had told him, that AJ is alive.
If AJ was dead for a legiti… moremate reason, Jane couldn't have told him that he was alive (well, I suppose she could have lied).
You then agreed.
He would have no reason to continue fighting if AJ was potentially somewhere out there alive
I'm pointing out that both these arguments boil down to the same conclusion: had AJ not been out there alive, if for example he was dead through no fault of Jane's, he would have had reason to continue fighting. I'm intending to explain that the entire reasoning is flawed.
Kenny didn't know what had happened to AJ, only that Jane claimed it had been an accident and she wasn't as cooperative as you think someone that had just lost a baby should be. He then starts a fight that becomes lethal, and kills Jane when he gets the upper hand.
So what would Kenny have said had AJ truly be… [view original content]
It's easy to say after the fact that you would have done things differently if only something else might have happened. Kenny constantly claimed to be sorry for how he acted, but he never changed how he acted. Talk is cheap. I'd put more stock on what he said if he'd ever shown that he was willing to listen to what others had to say. But he never did.
I was only talking about whether or not Kenny would stop the fight once he heard from Jane that AJ was alive somewhere. I wasn't talking abo… moreut justification behind the reasoning of killing her not killing her in any situation. I was simply saying that Kenny would have no reason either way to keep fighting. I wasn't even necessarily saying he had reason before that (I think he did, but that is a whole different discussion).
Its not just about taking his word for it though, its the fact that there is a logical explanation as to why he would possibly stop fighting. If Jane had personally stopped fighting, Kenny may have stopped as well depending on what part of the fight we're talking about. If Jane stopped fighting and told Kenny she had the baby alive somewhere, there is very much the possibility that his anger would have subsided to relief. He potentially would have wanted to get to the baby as soon as possible, considering how protective he was of it.
The best chance for all of this would have been when Kenny disengaged from the fight after getting his stomach slashed. He distanced himself from Jane and wasn't trying to do anything to her. Jane should have just told him then.
It's easy to say after the fact that you would have done things differently if only something else might have happened. Kenny constantly cla… moreimed to be sorry for how he acted, but he never changed how he acted. Talk is cheap. I'd put more stock on what he said if he'd ever shown that he was willing to listen to what others had to say. But he never did.
Abusive people always realize how wrong their abuse is and ask for forgiveness. And then they just keep on making the same mistakes. Him saying "Sorry" after the fact doesn't mean anything.
Seriously? Look up any amount of literature about abusive relationships and you'll find that it's a cycle where the abuser harms the object of their obsession, then apologizes, then is normal for a while, and then the cycle starts again. This isn't something to even waste time debating. It's textbook psychology, available everywhere.
The same can be said for Kenny. Jane was trying to murder Kenny, even after he backs off, she still goes after him with a knife. After that, Kenny had to kill her, because if he released her she would have killed him.
Its called self defense.
Kenny was going to flat out MURDER Jane... Clem killing him is saving someone else.
Thats why you don't get life for self defense.
The same can be said for Kenny. Jane was trying to murder Kenny, even after he backs off, she still goes after him with a knife. After that, Kenny had to kill her, because if he released her she would have killed him.
When they go outside, just tell Jane to back off and she will respond with: No Clem, it's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery.
Because she was convinced there was no other way, since Kenny had already proven he was beyond reason at that point. Jane was vague, sure, but Kenny never pressed her for information, he just attacked. If you try to talk him down when they're still inside, he refuses because he's "done talking". Kenny was a bomb waiting to go off, plain and simple.
And he seems a lot more relaxed right before he discovers Wellington, if you chose to go with him.
And yet it is that ending exactly where he says he doesn't trust himself not to be a danger to Clementine, regardless of his demeanor before that. That's the thing with inner pain, you can show a multitude of things on the outside that don't reflect what's going on on the inside. Just look at any number of suicides that people never saw coming in a million years.
Jane never explained anything to Kenny nor to Clem. She just babbled that it ws an accident. She was purpesfully vague, because giving a per… morefectly reasonable explanation might not have ticked Kenny off enough and she knew that.
Kenny would have done exactly what he did, with no interest in hearing her side. He'd have tried to kill her
Kenny didn't try to kill her until Jane went after him outside. When they go outside, just tell Jane to back off and she will respond with:
No Clem, it's time to put this crusty piece of shit out of his misery.
Maybe, but not even Kenny shares that optimism. He knows he's a danger to Clem.
Kenny does in fact recover when you don't shoot him. And he seems a lot more relaxed right before he discovers Wellington, if you chose to go with him.
Almost all of your replies to Belan have been passive aggressive, snarky, or basically saying their post is wrong because you say it is. Why don't you propose a plausible argument to counteract Belan's, instead of being rude?
You're wasting your time. Belan thinks Kenny is perfect in every way and nothing anyone says will get through that Kenny was looking for blood the second he thought the baby was dead.
He was in the midst of losing his lover again, Clem is the last person her has that is closest to him. Everyone knows we lash out the most at our loved ones, but rarely do we mean it. Yes, he does apologize, confirming that he didn't mean any of the hurtful things he said. That doesn't mean it's ok that he said them in the first place, but it makes it less reprehensible, especially given the fact that he was grieving like any other human would and is angry about losing someone right in front of his eyes yet again.
If members of a group truly care about one another, they don't up and leave each other just because one of the members is acting out of line/pissing them off. They discuss options, they try to compromise and understand each others' points of view, because the want to keep the group together. They sure as hell don't steal all their supplies and the only vehicle, and then leave with the person who shot an eleven year old girl either. Kenny was right in the end, because these people he just met a couple of days ago didn't give a shit about him, Clem, or AJ. If they did, they would have never left.
Arvo ambushed them with his group who planned to kill them, the group that he led specifically to their location. it's a miracle that no one died. The rage that Kenny feels because of Arvo is understandable.
It's Jane's fault because she made the decision to take advantage of Kenny in his fragile state, she deduced what would cause the most explosive reaction, and that was AJ. She knew that if Kenny thought the baby was dead, that he would react violently, which would put her in a better light with Clem, and also give her a good excuse for killing him without looking like the bad guy. Mike and Bonnie chose to leave, nobody forced them, they are adults. Jane didn't make a mistake, how are you not seeing that she actively deceived both Clem and Kenny for her own selfish reasons? There is no justification for manipulating people into believing a baby is dead, especially if said person is a father, and has already lost a child before, Jane knew where to hit Kenny where it hurts most("It's your family right?" This is about your family") and she took complete advantage of that in a very disturbing way. You seem to have your blinders on if you're justifying what Jane's done. Kenny was nowhere in the right in responding like he did, but Jane is more so in the wrong because she could have easily prevented the fight from ever happening by not leaving AJ alone in the car in the first place.
No one is saying that Kenny is forgiven for all his mistakes. What is commendable is that he has an acute awareness of all his mistakes, that he felt like he's been being punished since as far back as deciding to save his son and not Shawn, he expresses that he desires redemption, but he doesn't even believe he deserves it. Him giving up AJ, and telling Clem to stay at Wellington is perhaps the most selfless thing he's ever done. We know how much they mean to him, and Kenny saying that he doesn't want Clem to have to sleep with a gun under her pillow anymore, that he wants her and AJ to have the most normal and fulfilling life possible, or that he doesn't want them to keep suffering for his mistakes is what makes him eligible for redemption. Because he is at least trying to redeem himself/put himself on the path of redemption, and that in itself is what is admirable.
He didn't force himself into the story. TTG had planned for him to be in season 2 from the start, why else would they make his death so ambiguous and happen offscreen.
Kenny has a way of making history repeat itself.
He lashes out at Clem for getting Sarita killed "but he apologized"
Then he lashes ou… moret at anyone who disagrees with him "He's just looking out for the group" Yeah thats why almost everyone else ditched us
Then he beats a defenseless prisoner "Arvo deserved everything he got" Yes its easy to say that now AFTER he shoots us. But before that the only crime Arvo committed was being there after Luke died.
"Jane was egging him on in the car bringing up his dead family" And the entire time Kenny was being a reasonable nice guy? This is what happens when people argue. They get heated they don't think of what they're saying. Seems to happen a lot with Kenny.
Then the fight. What it all comes down to. I've lost count of how many people say Jane "manipulated" Kenny into it. Well whose fucking fault is that? Kenny was displaying real anger issues. He was bordering on violent when… [view original content]
Because everyone is sick of this argument yet people like Belan can't let it go. Excuse me if its been a week and people are still unable to accept other people's opinion on a damn video game and I'm being a bit passive aggressive because it might as well copy pastas a this point.
Almost all of your replies to Belan have been passive aggressive, snarky, or basically saying their post is wrong because you say it is. Why don't you propose a plausible argument to counteract Belan's, instead of being rude?
Well, if you're going to reply to someone's argument, at least give it a decent reply, even if that means copy and pasting it. If you don't have anything nice to say(or in this case anything contributing to the debate) then don't say anything at all. It reflects badly on you if you respond in such an insulting manner to someone's post, not to mention that it's uncalled for. If you don't want to debate about it, then don't go into threads of this nature. It's not that difficult.
Because everyone is sick of this argument yet people like Belan can't let it go. Excuse me if its been a week and people are still unable t… moreo accept other people's opinion on a damn video game and I'm being a bit passive aggressive because it might as well copy pastas a this point.
I'll take that as you conceding to the validity of my point then.
He does back off, the moment after she slashes him in the stomach, he withdraws from the fight. She chose to follow him outside. Sheathing her knife was only meant to goad Kenny into attacking her, who in their right mind would fight someone who has a knife, while you yourself have no weapons but your fists? And it's not like she threw the knife out of reach, it was right on her thigh, it would take less than a second to pull the knife back out.
I'm not even going to take these kinds of posts seriously anymore.
Not once does he back off... She put her knife away... Clearly its her fault he jumps her after that.
Well, if you're going to reply to someone's argument, at least give it a decent reply, even if that means copy and pasting it. If you don't … morehave anything nice to say(or in this case anything contributing to the debate) then don't say anything at all. It reflects badly on you if you respond in such an insulting manner to someone's post, not to mention that it's uncalled for. If you don't want to debate about it, then don't go into threads of this nature. It's not that difficult.
I'll take that as you conceding to the validity of my point then.
He does back off, the moment after she slashes him in the stomach, he w… moreithdraws from the fight. She chose to follow him outside. Sheathing her knife was only meant to goad Kenny into attacking her, who in their right mind would fight someone who has a knife, while you yourself have no weapons but your fists? And it's not like she threw the knife out of reach, it was right on her thigh, it would take less than a second to pull the knife back out.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I haven't insulted you personally. I can tell you I've been insulted for liking Kenny several times, but that doesn't excuse me if I were to react in the same surly manner. Your comment was rude, just because other people have been rude to you, doesn't make it alright to be rude to someone else.
It's perfectly possible to avoid, don't click on the thread, unfollow the threads that contain this type of content. Personally, I find engaging in civil debates about the game fun, and I know many others do as well. If that's not your cup of tea, then don't get involved in them.
I'm being called every insult in the English language for liking Jane. And you think I'm being rude?
LOL
Its impossible to avoid because every fucking thread devolves into this argument. Too many people taking a game seriously.
I know this has been said to you several times, but a physical fight is not the equivalent of wanting/planning to kill someone. If that were the case, then every time 2 people got into an altercation, then they'd be on trial for attempted murder or manslaughter, or some other charge of that nature. It doesn't become a fight to the death until Jane pursues Kenny after slashing his stomach, until she says that "she wants to put this crusty fuck out of his misery". That is when it has escalated, and Kenny realizes that she plans to kill him, so he responds in kind and kills her before she gets the chance to. It is goading him, because it was her intention to have Kenny be shown in the worst light possible, If Kenny didn't attack her like she wanted him to, and she didn't get to play the part of killing Kenny to protect Clem, and subsequently getting to keep Clem, then her ridiculous plan would all be for naught.
Let me see if I can understand you're meaning
His threatening manner and obvious nature of wanting to kill her is backing off yet her putting her knife away means she's goading him.
k
I'm not even going to take these kinds of posts seriously anymore.
Not once does he back off... She put her knife away... Clearly its her fault he jumps her after that.
Comments
Haha that's okay!
And Kenny just needed to ask. Jane's plan was to show that Kenny wouldn't try to figure things out before attacking. Of course she isn't going to volunteer the information. She wants to show you that Kenny requires constant babysitting to ensure he won't do something stupid. That he's dangerous. All Kenny had to do to ruin her plan was stop to think for a second and ask what had happened.
It's the same reason she puts the knife away. With a normal person, putting the knife away would defuse the situation, it shows you don't want to fight. She wanted to show that instead of taking the opportunity to get his facts straight, Kenny was just hoping for an opening to hurt her. That he cares more about using violence to feel better than learning what is going on.
Yes, Jane could have defused the situation. So could have Kenny. Her point was, Kenny never would, even when given every chance.
This a bazillion times
If Kenny hadn't been violent, Mike wouldn't have had a reason to free Arvo and give him a gun in the first place.
If you try to stop him from hitting Arvo, he hits Clem as well. By accident, true, but you can't even say he would never hurt Clem. He does if she gets in the way of him hurting someone else.
Kenny is convinced she got rid of the baby, and that's exactly what such a person would say, so it's not a shocker he doesn't believe that.
Now "The baby is ALIVE, Kenny, I left him in the car, safe and sound !"
Would have triggered an entirely different reaction and you know it. Kenny could find this sudden turn of events dubious, but he'd still want to check, if there was any chance the baby was still alive he'd want to know and hold him in his arms again. He would have rushed to the car immediately.
No, just... no.
Kenny got it in his head that Wellington meant safety, just as he'd gotten in his head that a boat meant safety in S1. Despite not having any evidence, just rumors. Anything that challenged that unfounded opinion was wrong and a threat. That's why he dislikes Jane despite everything she has done to help the group, she constantly challenges his "plan". Which makes her the enemy.
Once he got Clem to Wellington, he was "done". His task is fulfilled, he'd finished what he'd set out to do. Which kind of undermines this all being about Clem. It was all about him, proving to himself that it wasn't his fault he lost his family, that if he could take them to Wellington he'd be absolved. It's why he never gives Clem a choice. He's going to take you to Wellington, whether you want to go or not.
Jane will let you go off on your own, however. Kenny won't let you go unless you kill him.
Abusive people always realize how wrong their abuse is and ask for forgiveness. And then they just keep on making the same mistakes. Him saying "Sorry" after the fact doesn't mean anything.
There is no reason to be dishonest. You can not shoot Kenny and choose to walk away from him.
First paragraph, you are right. What Jane did is indefensible. I'd quibble that she hadn't set out to prove herself better than Kenny, however. Not sure about her being a hypocrite.
However, Jane is not self serving, backstabbing, manipulative or dishonest. I'd much rather have her backing me up than Kenny, at least with her you know where you stand. Kenny instead gives in to his impulses, endangering everyone around him. Maybe if he'd not spent so much time caving Carver's head in, he could have helped Sarita. Maybe if he'd not used Arvo as a punching bag to take out his frustrations, he'd not have alienated the rest of the group and Clem wouldn't have been shot. Having a member of the group that everyone else has to work around so he doesn't go flying into a rage doesn't help the survival of the group.
But let's talk about Jane. Self serving? Jane never wanted to be with the group. She's terrified of being with other people because experience has taught her that groups will end up breaking down, cause her pain and maybe kill her. She joins the group against her better judgement because she likes Clem, and wants to teach her to be more self reliant so that when the group inevitable collapses, she'll have better odds of survival.
And she actually does teach her and equip her. She is the only one that notices that her hatchet (and her hammer before) is constantly getting stuck and she hands her a better tool. She teaches her a handy trick for disabling walkers while minimizing risk. She then hands her the nail file, and tells her the various things it can be used for.
And even though it put her at risk, she helped Rebecca walk out of the horde. For all her talk of how she doesn't like being with groups and not letting them drag her down, Jane consistently puts the group ahead of her comfort. Even when the group goes against her desires.
Backstabbing? She never betrays anyone. When she leaves, she doesn't even take any supplies beyond what she was carrying with her. She has no obligation towards the group, the group can't demand that she stay with them, so leaving is not a betrayal. And sleeping with Luke didn't give Luke a claim to her, so she's not betraying him either. It may not be the nicest thing to do, leaving in the middle of the night, but it's not a betrayal.
Dishonest? The only lie she ever says is saying that she lost AJ by accident. Saying one lie is not being dishonest. In every other situation she has always been upfront about her opinions and thoughts, even if it doesn't make her any friends. Which also goes against her being manipulative. A manipulative person tries to get people on their side, leverage feeling to get her way while disregarding the desires of others. Trying to convince a person of something is not being manipulative.
In all the time she was with the group, Jane made two serious mistakes. The first was taking Arvo's gun. She should have unloaded it and handed it back and the bullets separately. That way Arvo could reload it on his way back and everyone was safe. No harm no foul.
The second was the situation with the baby. Even if she was right about Kenny, she put everyone at risk trying to make Clementine see it.
Clem also had the role of "parent/guardian" to AJ. In fact, in some endings she's left alone with that role.
Why didn't she flip out and try to kill Jane, if that is the acceptable reaction? She had a lot more reason to think that something was wrong, with the things Jane says while Kenny runs out. But Clem wants to hear what she has to say, and she asks Kenny to back down.
So if AJ had really been dead by accident, like say some walkers clawed him out of her hands, it would have been ok to kill her?
You can? My bad. I didn't personally play every ending, I was under the impression that Kenny alive meant going to Wellington (that the game didn't give you the option of disagreeing with him, only shooting him). Kinda sucks that you can't do so until either him or Jane are dead.
Totally agree with you here. I also saw right through her. She was provoking Kenny just to prove a point, despite their current situation in which the area is filled with walkers in the middle of a blizzard.
http://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/82553/the-ending-that-went-right-in-the-feels-i-can-t-even
You have only been speculating/ making things up. Funny that you're calling me immature here.. seriously. Its just sad. I'm only looking for these supposed "facts" instead of you 100% speculating on everything. You aren't even talking about what actually happened in the game.. as in things you can concretely point to as for sure happening. Your guess work does not count as evidence by any means. Like I said before, feel free to guess and speculate all you want, but don't try to use that stuff to tell someone they are wrong about something. Its pointless.
Let me give you the definition of fact.
Fact: A thing that is indisputably the case.
Yeah.. you haven't been doing anything of the sort. You're only guessing and grasping at straws. Again, not necessarily a bad thing, but don't use that to tell me I'm wrong.
Wow. You realize we're talking about Jane's plan to get Kenny to flip out, right? I'm talking about looking back on the plan and how I see it now. Not how I saw it in the moment.
I wasn't talking about Jane's plan to go back to Carver's camp.
Again, just because you do not know for certain that a certain place exists does not mean you should not try and find it. Thank you for ignoring all my points on the matter. No clue what you think you're trying to prove.
How is it selfishness? Kenny is the one who was able to get the truck to work, and he did so for his own plan. If he wants to take it on his own journey then he is free to do that. Mike and Bonnie clearly had no qualms with going their separate ways.
She is an 11 year old girl, not a parental figure. I'm sure she had the baby's best interests at mind, but it isn't the same thing. She wouldn't attack Jane if Jane had out right admitted to killing it. Its just not in her nature, and not in the nature of really anyone that age.
Either way, good for Clem if she didn't think Jane killed the baby. Parental figures are still going to flip out in that situation.
?
Where did you come up with that based on what I said?
So you mean Jane using Clem to become a better person? I could actually see that!
HerrKazuya said:
If AJ was dead for a legitimate reason, Jane couldn't have told him that he was alive (well, I suppose she could have lied).
You then agreed.
I'm pointing out that both these arguments boil down to the same conclusion: had AJ not been out there alive, if for example he was dead through no fault of Jane's, he would have had reason to continue fighting. I'm intending to explain that the entire reasoning is flawed.
Kenny didn't know what had happened to AJ, only that Jane claimed it had been an accident and she wasn't as cooperative as you think someone that had just lost a baby should be. He then starts a fight that becomes lethal, and kills Jane when he gets the upper hand.
So what would Kenny have said had AJ truly been dead? If they found his remains amid some dead walkers, for example, implying that Jane fought the walkers but lost the baby in the fight.
Saying that Jane didn't need to die because AJ was alive implies that if she'd truly lost him, she did deserve to die without giving her a chance to explain herself. He only shows remorse when the baby turns up alive. He thought the baby was dead up to that point, killed the person he held accountable, and he didn't care to learn how it died.
I was only talking about whether or not Kenny would stop the fight once he heard from Jane that AJ was alive somewhere. I wasn't talking about justification behind the reasoning of killing her not killing her in any situation. I was simply saying that Kenny would have no reason either way to keep fighting. I wasn't even necessarily saying he had reason before that (I think he did, but that is a whole different discussion).
It's easy to say after the fact that you would have done things differently if only something else might have happened. Kenny constantly claimed to be sorry for how he acted, but he never changed how he acted. Talk is cheap. I'd put more stock on what he said if he'd ever shown that he was willing to listen to what others had to say. But he never did.
Its not just about taking his word for it though, its the fact that there is a logical explanation as to why he would possibly stop fighting. If Jane had personally stopped fighting, Kenny may have stopped as well depending on what part of the fight we're talking about. If Jane stopped fighting and told Kenny she had the baby alive somewhere, there is very much the possibility that his anger would have subsided to relief. He potentially would have wanted to get to the baby as soon as possible, considering how protective he was of it.
The best chance for all of this would have been when Kenny disengaged from the fight after getting his stomach slashed. He distanced himself from Jane and wasn't trying to do anything to her. Jane should have just told him then.
I don't know that abusive people always apologize. It's not something you can prove.
Seriously? Look up any amount of literature about abusive relationships and you'll find that it's a cycle where the abuser harms the object of their obsession, then apologizes, then is normal for a while, and then the cycle starts again. This isn't something to even waste time debating. It's textbook psychology, available everywhere.
Lol aw thanks
The same can be said for Kenny. Jane was trying to murder Kenny, even after he backs off, she still goes after him with a knife. After that, Kenny had to kill her, because if he released her she would have killed him.
I'm not even going to take these kinds of posts seriously anymore.
Not once does he back off... She put her knife away... Clearly its her fault he jumps her after that.
Because she was convinced there was no other way, since Kenny had already proven he was beyond reason at that point. Jane was vague, sure, but Kenny never pressed her for information, he just attacked. If you try to talk him down when they're still inside, he refuses because he's "done talking". Kenny was a bomb waiting to go off, plain and simple.
And yet it is that ending exactly where he says he doesn't trust himself not to be a danger to Clementine, regardless of his demeanor before that. That's the thing with inner pain, you can show a multitude of things on the outside that don't reflect what's going on on the inside. Just look at any number of suicides that people never saw coming in a million years.
Almost all of your replies to Belan have been passive aggressive, snarky, or basically saying their post is wrong because you say it is. Why don't you propose a plausible argument to counteract Belan's, instead of being rude?
He was in the midst of losing his lover again, Clem is the last person her has that is closest to him. Everyone knows we lash out the most at our loved ones, but rarely do we mean it. Yes, he does apologize, confirming that he didn't mean any of the hurtful things he said. That doesn't mean it's ok that he said them in the first place, but it makes it less reprehensible, especially given the fact that he was grieving like any other human would and is angry about losing someone right in front of his eyes yet again.
If members of a group truly care about one another, they don't up and leave each other just because one of the members is acting out of line/pissing them off. They discuss options, they try to compromise and understand each others' points of view, because the want to keep the group together. They sure as hell don't steal all their supplies and the only vehicle, and then leave with the person who shot an eleven year old girl either. Kenny was right in the end, because these people he just met a couple of days ago didn't give a shit about him, Clem, or AJ. If they did, they would have never left.
Arvo ambushed them with his group who planned to kill them, the group that he led specifically to their location. it's a miracle that no one died. The rage that Kenny feels because of Arvo is understandable.
It's Jane's fault because she made the decision to take advantage of Kenny in his fragile state, she deduced what would cause the most explosive reaction, and that was AJ. She knew that if Kenny thought the baby was dead, that he would react violently, which would put her in a better light with Clem, and also give her a good excuse for killing him without looking like the bad guy. Mike and Bonnie chose to leave, nobody forced them, they are adults. Jane didn't make a mistake, how are you not seeing that she actively deceived both Clem and Kenny for her own selfish reasons? There is no justification for manipulating people into believing a baby is dead, especially if said person is a father, and has already lost a child before, Jane knew where to hit Kenny where it hurts most("It's your family right?" This is about your family") and she took complete advantage of that in a very disturbing way. You seem to have your blinders on if you're justifying what Jane's done. Kenny was nowhere in the right in responding like he did, but Jane is more so in the wrong because she could have easily prevented the fight from ever happening by not leaving AJ alone in the car in the first place.
No one is saying that Kenny is forgiven for all his mistakes. What is commendable is that he has an acute awareness of all his mistakes, that he felt like he's been being punished since as far back as deciding to save his son and not Shawn, he expresses that he desires redemption, but he doesn't even believe he deserves it. Him giving up AJ, and telling Clem to stay at Wellington is perhaps the most selfless thing he's ever done. We know how much they mean to him, and Kenny saying that he doesn't want Clem to have to sleep with a gun under her pillow anymore, that he wants her and AJ to have the most normal and fulfilling life possible, or that he doesn't want them to keep suffering for his mistakes is what makes him eligible for redemption. Because he is at least trying to redeem himself/put himself on the path of redemption, and that in itself is what is admirable.
He didn't force himself into the story. TTG had planned for him to be in season 2 from the start, why else would they make his death so ambiguous and happen offscreen.
Because everyone is sick of this argument yet people like Belan can't let it go. Excuse me if its been a week and people are still unable to accept other people's opinion on a damn video game and I'm being a bit passive aggressive because it might as well copy pastas a this point.
Well, if you're going to reply to someone's argument, at least give it a decent reply, even if that means copy and pasting it. If you don't have anything nice to say(or in this case anything contributing to the debate) then don't say anything at all. It reflects badly on you if you respond in such an insulting manner to someone's post, not to mention that it's uncalled for. If you don't want to debate about it, then don't go into threads of this nature. It's not that difficult.
I'll take that as you conceding to the validity of my point then.
He does back off, the moment after she slashes him in the stomach, he withdraws from the fight. She chose to follow him outside. Sheathing her knife was only meant to goad Kenny into attacking her, who in their right mind would fight someone who has a knife, while you yourself have no weapons but your fists? And it's not like she threw the knife out of reach, it was right on her thigh, it would take less than a second to pull the knife back out.
I'm being called every insult in the English language for liking Jane. And you think I'm being rude?
LOL
Its impossible to avoid because every fucking thread devolves into this argument. Too many people taking a game seriously.
Let me see if I can understand you're meaning
His threatening manner and obvious nature of wanting to kill her is backing off yet her putting her knife away means she's goading him.
k
I can't speak for anyone else, but I haven't insulted you personally. I can tell you I've been insulted for liking Kenny several times, but that doesn't excuse me if I were to react in the same surly manner. Your comment was rude, just because other people have been rude to you, doesn't make it alright to be rude to someone else.
It's perfectly possible to avoid, don't click on the thread, unfollow the threads that contain this type of content. Personally, I find engaging in civil debates about the game fun, and I know many others do as well. If that's not your cup of tea, then don't get involved in them.
I know this has been said to you several times, but a physical fight is not the equivalent of wanting/planning to kill someone. If that were the case, then every time 2 people got into an altercation, then they'd be on trial for attempted murder or manslaughter, or some other charge of that nature. It doesn't become a fight to the death until Jane pursues Kenny after slashing his stomach, until she says that "she wants to put this crusty fuck out of his misery". That is when it has escalated, and Kenny realizes that she plans to kill him, so he responds in kind and kills her before she gets the chance to. It is goading him, because it was her intention to have Kenny be shown in the worst light possible, If Kenny didn't attack her like she wanted him to, and she didn't get to play the part of killing Kenny to protect Clem, and subsequently getting to keep Clem, then her ridiculous plan would all be for naught.
She doesn't though. I have looked at every option in that fight. She never puts the knife away outside. She attacks Kenny in every situation.
Edit: Never mind, thought you were talking about something else. My bad.