I think your responses would be better received if they weren't so overtly religious. The best way to get your messages across is to let you points stand on their own legs without inserting so much religious fluff. You end up turning more people away like that Ladariel. I am not saying I disagree with you just that you should make your points without relying on religion so much because it weakens your arguments. By the way I say this as a believer myself but I have learned that the weakest argument in the world is "because God said so!"
Well I am not here to nitpick and over-analyze endlessly over the definitions in debate, but I am quite confident many would agree and under… morestand the basic premise of my original proposal that Satan is indeed known for deception as well. If Satan has deceived many then he should be justly labeled as a deceiver, just as if a person who commits murder is a murderer. Theft? your a thief. and I do not feel I was 100% incorrect with saying Satan is the master of deception or equivalent to deception and is there-fore a deceiver. Terms can and do have plural meanings.
Jesus would never have to do anything as apparently he's omniscient-all knowing and would know what Jane has done with the baby anyhow (You say Jesus would never beat Arvo or kill Jane yet he'd supposedly send them both to burn in hell forever if for not believing in him or obeying him, And Jesus whom is considered God as well has killed plenty of nations throughout biblical history… [view original content]
Sorry to say that - but you're one messed up, depressing person. You should go and look for professional help, and I don't say that to insult you - but it sounds like you have a depression and a death wish, which kinda makes me worry.
Right and I said we can only theorize about whats beyond those walls. But from what we have seen it appears to be more like a Alexandria community than a Wood-bury or Terminus community (most likely). If Wellington was bad or a cannibal society they would have let all three of them in to either kill them for occult or give them the Mark and Dale (from the comics) treatment to cook and eat them for a feast. And as for the rest you have your theories and I have mine.
* You don't really know anything about Wellington. For all you know it could be like Woodbury or Terminus.
* Nothing Jane said was lie with… more the exception of hiding the baby.
* The number of people who agree is irrelevant. It could easily be argued that Kenny could be a metaphor for a false prophet leading an unwitting person to damnation.
* Kenny brought hostility into a stable group and drove it apart by creating an atmosphere of hostility and fear.
* Nobody knew if Wellington really existed, not even Kenny. Kenny got lucky.
I would argue that Howe's in analogous to Noah's ark in that the wicked and corrupt world that was populated by Carver and his group has been washed clean by the flood of walkers and Clementine and Jane have returned to rebuild on the newly cleansed land.
I think your responses would be better received if they weren't so overtly religious. The best way to get your messages across is to let you… more points stand on their own legs without inserting so much religious fluff. You end up turning more people away like that Ladariel. I am not saying I disagree with you just that you should make your points without relying on religion so much because it weakens your arguments. By the way I say this as a believer myself but I have learned that the weakest argument in the world is "because God said so!"
Ah see this is exactly what i mean ladariel. This is why you shouldnt make your arguments using religion because you will get countered like this. Saw this right after I responded to Ladariel.
* You don't really know anything about Wellington. For all you know it could be like Woodbury or Terminus.
* Nothing Jane said was lie with… more the exception of hiding the baby.
* The number of people who agree is irrelevant. It could easily be argued that Kenny could be a metaphor for a false prophet leading an unwitting person to damnation.
* Kenny brought hostility into a stable group and drove it apart by creating an atmosphere of hostility and fear.
* Nobody knew if Wellington really existed, not even Kenny. Kenny got lucky.
I would argue that Howe's in analogous to Noah's ark in that the wicked and corrupt world that was populated by Carver and his group has been washed clean by the flood of walkers and Clementine and Jane have returned to rebuild on the newly cleansed land.
I am new to these forums I just joined today so I apologize if I was out of line. I was not sure what the guidelines were, and how strictly it was moderated / enforced. I am aware now though and I will be careful. Thanks for the warning.
Guys, please watch yourselves and stay civil. I'd prefer not to see this thread dissolve into yet another heated debate over the Kenny/Jane debate - and likewise with discussions about how other people respond to the debate. Thanks in advance.
I was presenting counter arguments to your analogies, not my personal "theories" ("theory" is an often misused word). As far as I'm concerned all of the endings are valid. I wouldn't make any religious interpretations. Ultimately the fate of the characters is unknown - with the exception of the determinant characters that were killed.
I personally see the Jane, AJ, Family ending as being cautiously optimistic. Sure the family is unknown, possibly dangerous, but Clementine and Jane are obviously prepared to defend themselves if they need to.
Right and I said we can only theorize about whats beyond those walls. But from what we have seen it appears to be more like a Alexandria com… moremunity than a Wood-bury or Terminus community (most likely). If Wellington was bad or a cannibal society they would have let all three of them in to either kill them for occult or give them the Mark and Dale (from the comics) treatment to cook and eat them for a feast. And as for the rest you have your theories and I have mine.
Don't worry, that wasn't directed towards you - that was a general warning.
Long before this thread, people here have had problems with personally insulting other users for their opinions of fictional characters. This isn't anything new.
I am new to these forums I just joined today so I apologize if I was out of line. I was not sure what the guidelines were, and how strictly it was moderated / enforced. I am aware now though and I will be careful. Thanks for the warning.
"ps. People just dont like to hear that their pick was based more on emotions rather than logic and rationality."
I was not trying to make you feel like Jane was the emotional pick and not based on logic, but that is simply what it was. Point after point just made me not trust Jane. Even though she was much nicer and easier to be around than Kenny with all his yelling, I had to realize its not about emotions and the plan was more important. My priority was to get Clem and AJ to safety and that was also Kenny's plan. So no matter how unpleasant he was sometimes I had to look past emotions and see that he had a the best logical plan. Unfortunately, Jane didn't really have a plan(as Kenny pointed out in the car fight) "just play it be ear". Clem even said that doesn't sound like a good plan for the baby but Jane just wanted to go south. So in the end when i saw Kenny with the knife on top of Janes chest I had to make a decision. Shoot Kenny who is not so fun be around as Jane, but has a better plan. Or let Kenny kill Jane who was really starting to develop a nice friendship with Clem? In the end, I decided emotions i had for Jane were not worth killing Kenny over. Despite Kenny being a ROUGH MAN which may offend people who are very emotional, I had to side with him because he always had Clem and AJ best interest as his priority. So it was a purely logic and rationality for me.
Sorry If you didnt like to hear that Jane was the more emotional pick rhough.
Well all i've ever claimed is that considering the mental state and everything about Kenny, Jane was more rational/logical pick, assuming th… moree priority was your own survival and Jane would surely look after you (and provide nice company) and be more reliable companion than Kenny. I understand that many dont like people like Jane, and they didnt want to give up on Kenny, but in za, i would pick more stable person over broken old friend.
Its pretty much the difference between me and most people who side with Kenny. I would be ready to kill my old friend in order to save new friend, who is "better" companion. (and again, "better" meaning being ready to do what it takes to survive, no backstabbing included)
ps. People just dont like to hear that their pick was based more on emotions rather than logic and rationality.
So you are implying that being around violent and reckless man who makes hasty decisions, which usually cause problems, is more safer for Clem than someone like Jane? My priority is the survival of Clementine. Kenny was a threat to that with his behaviour.
Wow Zykelator, Your not really doing a good job of promoting what your believe in. Why would anybody want to have your values and believe life is meaningless and random if in the end it just leads to a depressed person who wants to kill themselves. I hope you get help man but please keep that stuff to yourself your derailing this topic which is supposed to be about TWD season 2.
I PREFER THIS ENDING:
Stay with Kenny and Leave Wellington in The Walking Dead Season 2 Episode 5 - No Going Back
BECAUSE,
I hones… moretly don't see Kenny getting out of this alive. He's just one of those characters who will be with you, almost to the end.
HE'S JUST ONE OF THOSE CHARACTERS WHO WILL BE WITH YOU, ALMOST TO THE END!
FOREVER KENNY AND CLEMENTINE.
I LOVE KENNY.
No i am implying that Jane was the emotional choice because she was a cool friend, whereas Kenny was the more logical choice because even though he was rough and abrasive he had a better plan. I knew Kenny would never abandon me, with Jane you never knew if she would just leave you or let you die in some risky situation. It was not emotional at all. My emotions told me Kenny was scary (when he blamed Clem for Sarita's death it really offended me and I think it hurt Clem's feelings). However, logic told me to look past the emotions and realize that Kenny was in a lot of pain after the death of Sarita and he just needed to vent his anger out and get it off his chest. It is not healthy to keep that stuff inside right? So i forgave him and he apologized for that at the transformer campfire in episode 5. I didn't let the emotions blind me from the fact that Kenny has always wanted to get Clem and AJ to safety and the ending proves Kenny would sacrifice his own life to get them both into Wellington. So choosing Kenny was NOT the emotionally pleasing choice, it was based on knowing I would have a better outcome and chance of survival with Kenny. Say what u want about Kenny and his anger but through the entire TWD seasons 1 and 2 he never once lifted a finger against Clem or even hinted that he would be capable of hurting Clem. However anybody who dared to mess with Clem and now AJ too, or mess with his plan to get them to what he thought was the best chance of a safety, well those people better watch out. Carver, Arvo, and sadly Jane found that out the hard way. Kenny was getting his kids to wellington and nobody was gonna stop him till he accomplished that mission. That is why i always stuck by him.
P.S. I never said anything about MORE SAFER.... LoL. That was a different post.
So you are implying that being around violent and reckless man who makes hasty decisions, which usually cause problems, is more safer for Cl… moreem than someone like Jane? My priority is the survival of Clementine. Kenny was a threat to that with his behaviour.
I personally see the Jane, AJ, Family ending as being cautiously optimistic. Sure the family is unknown, possibly dangerous, but Clementine and Jane are obviously prepared to defend themselves if they need to.
I agree that the Jane endings are pretty open to interpretation. They did a good job with that in the way they can be interpreted either way. Any family that has survived would have a gun. Doesnt mean they are bad. And Clem noticing it is just being cautious.
I just think the Kenny ending are superior, both in emotional impact, and in the overall outcome. If Clem was your kid would you rather she be in a place like wellington where all the families are screened for you and walls keep the walkers at bay? Or would you rather she was scavenging the wilderness with Jane and vulnerable to all those dangers herself? If you are equally optimistic about Wellington it is far superior to life with Jane, for both Clem and the baby.
having watched walking dead on TV though i have to admit that Terminus was still fresh in my mind and that is why I chose not to enter Wellington without Kenny. You never know what kinda crazy stuff happens in the ZA. But they seemed nice with the giving out supplies so be optimistic I say.
I was presenting counter arguments to your analogies, not my personal "theories" ("theory" is an often misused word). As far as I'm concerne… mored all of the endings are valid. I wouldn't make any religious interpretations. Ultimately the fate of the characters is unknown - with the exception of the determinant characters that were killed.
I personally see the Jane, AJ, Family ending as being cautiously optimistic. Sure the family is unknown, possibly dangerous, but Clementine and Jane are obviously prepared to defend themselves if they need to.
A cool friend? She was more stable person than Kenny. She didnt get emotional outbursts where she hates everyone and gets violent at anything, living or dead. Kennys plan to find Wellington was stupid (You have no factual evidence of its existance).
with Jane you never knew if she would just leave you or let you die in some risky situation
Jane shows that she truly cares about Clementine and she even risks her life at the lake/river, when Clementine falls through the ice. Once inside the house, Kenny was busy releasing this anger you talk about at Arvo and was completely ignoring Clementine, who was freezing to death. This is the reason its not wise to be around people who can be so blinded by rage, that they ignore even the people they care about.
No i am implying that Jane was the emotional choice because she was a cool friend, whereas Kenny was the more logical choice because even th… moreough he was rough and abrasive he had a better plan. I knew Kenny would never abandon me, with Jane you never knew if she would just leave you or let you die in some risky situation. It was not emotional at all. My emotions told me Kenny was scary (when he blamed Clem for Sarita's death it really offended me and I think it hurt Clem's feelings). However, logic told me to look past the emotions and realize that Kenny was in a lot of pain after the death of Sarita and he just needed to vent his anger out and get it off his chest. It is not healthy to keep that stuff inside right? So i forgave him and he apologized for that at the transformer campfire in episode 5. I didn't let the emotions blind me from the fact that Kenny has always wanted to get Clem and AJ to safety and the ending proves Kenny would sacr… [view original content]
It's not about which ending is more emotional or which ending is preferable. I made all of the decisions that I felt were right. The ending I got is less important than the decisions I made to get it.
I personally see the Jane, AJ, Family ending as being cautiously optimistic. Sure the family is unknown, possibly dangerous, but Clementine … moreand Jane are obviously prepared to defend themselves if they need to.
I agree that the Jane endings are pretty open to interpretation. They did a good job with that in the way they can be interpreted either way. Any family that has survived would have a gun. Doesnt mean they are bad. And Clem noticing it is just being cautious.
I just think the Kenny ending are superior, both in emotional impact, and in the overall outcome. If Clem was your kid would you rather she be in a place like wellington where all the families are screened for you and walls keep the walkers at bay? Or would you rather she was scavenging the wilderness with Jane and vulnerable to all those dangers herself? If you are equally optimistic about Wellington it is far superior to life with Jane, for both Clem and the baby.
havin… [view original content]
"A cool friend? She was more stable person than Kenny. She didnt get emotional outbursts where she hates everyone and gets violent at anything, living or dead."
Please explain to me because I must have played a different game than you. I must have missed these parts where Kenny hates everyone and gets violent at anything living or dead. So how many people did Kenny get violent on besides Carver, Arvo, and Jane? How many times did he smack Bonnie around, and punch Mike, or Luke, or Walter, or Sarita, or Rebecca, or Clementine, or AJ, or Nick, or Sarah, or Carlos? When did he tell any of them he hates them? Granted things got a little heated with bonnie and mike at the end but he never said he HATES THEM, he just didnt understand why they were against the plan to go north and find wellington. As soon as you give me evidence of Kenny spewing hate or violence at anybody besides Carver, Arvo, and Jane I will concede this point to you. But since there is zero proof you cant use that as a point. Yes he yells a lot and im sorry if that hurt your feelings but he was on a mission. And if your mad that he beat a walker with a crowbar.... ummm your playing the wrong game.
A cool friend? She was more stable person than Kenny. She didnt get emotional outbursts where she hates everyone and gets violent at anythin… moreg, living or dead. Kennys plan to find Wellington was stupid (You have no factual evidence of its existance).
with Jane you never knew if she would just leave you or let you die in some risky situation
Jane shows that she truly cares about Clementine and she even risks her life at the lake/river, when Clementine falls through the ice. Once inside the house, Kenny was busy releasing this anger you talk about at Arvo and was completely ignoring Clementine, who was freezing to death. This is the reason its not wise to be around people who can be so blinded by rage, that they ignore even the people they care about.
Oh i did the same thing, but upon learning about the other endings I was curious to see how many people fell for Janes trick and actually killed Kenny. OMG YOU KILLED KENNY! Then i wanted to talk about the other endings.
It's not about which ending is more emotional or which ending is preferable. I made all of the decisions that I felt were right. The ending I got is less important than the decisions I made to get it.
I strongly suspected the baby was alive and that she hid him. I could tell by her emotional state and her behavior. I agreed with her 95% of the time. I shot Kenny because he was about to stab somebody over a false assumption of guilt. You don't get to just kill somebody because you think they might have done something.
Oh i did the same thing, but upon learning about the other endings I was curious to see how many people fell for Janes trick and actually killed Kenny. OMG YOU KILLED KENNY! Then i wanted to talk about the other endings.
Yes well I let Kenny kill her because it was obvious to me she was trying to manipulate Clem. Making Kenny into a "bad guy" to Clem so that Jane could kill him and take Clem for herself. Yes he attacked her first but only after she played the worst joke in the world on him. The good old "haha i killed your baby" joke. Haha that trick is so funny it SLAYS everytime! Of course Jane knew that Kenny would flip out and attack her (given her background with the baby) and she knew that she could then kill him with her knife and claim self defense. What she didnt plan on was the first thing Kenny did when she went for her knife was he grabbed her arm and pinned it to her hip. Second of all it makes no sense that you she just lost the baby with no fight when even Kenny and Clem made it to the rest stop with no resistance. Kenny saw right through her lie that it was an accident he knew that Jane had done something to that baby and he was right. Jane is the one who made the fight lethal by provoking Kenny to rage and then trying to kill him with her knife. If you watch the fight again Kenny never said Im gonna kill you until she slashed him with the knife. Not to mention she could have just said the baby was alive to end it all but then she would have looked completely stupid and manipulative so she chose to play it out and try to kill kenny.
I strongly suspected the baby was alive and that she hid him. I could tell by her emotional state and her behavior. I agreed with her 95% of… more the time. I shot Kenny because he was about to stab somebody over a false assumption of guilt. You don't get to just kill somebody because you think they might have done something.
Paint it however you like to make Kenny the good guy in all of this. The fact is that Kenny tried to murder somebody over an assumption. If you can just write that off because you think he had every right to react the way he did, fine. Don't pretend it was moral. Don't pretend it was reasonable. Just admit that you chose him because you saw him as a friend and stop trying to make Jane out to be some monster because you didn't like her.
You watched your friend murder somebody who didn't deserve to die - it's as simple as that.
Yes well I let Kenny kill her because it was obvious to me she was trying to manipulate Clem. Making Kenny into a "bad guy" to Clem so that … moreJane could kill him and take Clem for herself. Yes he attacked her first but only after she played the worst joke in the world on him. The good old "haha i killed your baby" joke. Haha that trick is so funny it SLAYS everytime! Of course Jane knew that Kenny would flip out and attack her (given her background with the baby) and she knew that she could then kill him with her knife and claim self defense. What she didnt plan on was the first thing Kenny did when she went for her knife was he grabbed her arm and pinned it to her hip. Second of all it makes no sense that you she just lost the baby with no fight when even Kenny and Clem made it to the rest stop with no resistance. Kenny saw right through her lie that it was an accident he knew that Jane had done something to that baby and he was right. Jane is… [view original content]
No I am saying she didnt even want to go down and help Sarah when she fell off the deck when it collapsed. She said something like "theres no way shes getting out of that alive". And she was wrong. Jane almost saved her until that board hit her in the head. I don't blame her for not saving Sarah, I blame her for only trying if she thinks she will lose face with Clem who she obviously wants to be her protege.
You're going to blame her for getting hit in the head as an example of being selfish? That's not very rational. I don't think you know what … morethe word selfish means. She stayed in trailer waiting for Clem as she tried to convince her to leave Sarah - she was looking out for Clementine, not herself. If she were looking out for herself she would have been out of the trailer right behind Luke - more likely she never would have put herself in that position in the first place by distracting the walkers.
I forgot to note that she stopped and helped Rebecca and Clementine to find their way out of the herd. If she were selfish she would have just walked away.
I am new to these forums I just joined today so I apologize if I was out of line. I was not sure what the guidelines were, and how strictly it was moderated / enforced. I am aware now though and I will be careful. Thanks for the warning.
I did like her though. I thought Clem was getting through to her and making her a better person. If I had it my way she would have just helped Kenny get AJ and Clem to Wellington and they would then who knows. But no she had to use the baby to manipulate the fight because she wanted Clem to herself and hated Kenny. I really wish she didn't have to die but that was seriously a dangerous game she played with Kenny and she lost. You just dont do that sort of thing to man who lost his entire family and is so protective of that baby!
Jane wasn't a monster to me, she just had some issues to work out, same as Kenny did with his anger and all the yelling. She saved and helped the group many times, and i really enjoyed the moments where she is bonding with Clem. I thought the whole ordeal between her and Kenny was just tragic. Lets just agree to disagree. I respect your right to feel like you were saving Jane from a murderer as long as your respect my right to say Jane caused the whole confrontation and got herself killed.
Paint it however you like to make Kenny the good guy in all of this. The fact is that Kenny tried to murder somebody over an assumption. If … moreyou can just write that off because you think he had every right to react the way he did, fine. Don't pretend it was moral. Don't pretend it was reasonable. Just admit that you chose him because you saw him as a friend and stop trying to make Jane out to be some monster because you didn't like her.
You watched your friend murder somebody who didn't deserve to die - it's as simple as that.
I respect your opinions about Kenny, but we all have different views on this game. Here are my thoughts on this matter:
You talked about Jane trying to use the baby to get Kenny provoked and thus kill him. I agree that the plan is stupid, but I don't think Jane went as far as wanting to kill Kenny. She only wanted Clementine to see how truly unstable Kenny is. You should note that Jane put her already drawn knife back to her knife pocket after Kenny is provoked, a proof that she only wanted Kenny to expose his instability. In the end, it was also Kenny that first attacked Jane.
You state that Kenny is selfless and had Clementine and the baby on his agenda. I am afraid that I have to disagree with you strongly on this point. If Kenny only has Clementine and the baby on his mind but not the rest of the group, then that is pretty selfish in my opinion. I should also point out that other members of the group(except for Jane)has the best interest for everyone(I will not list an example for everyone because that will take far too long. I can do it if you want me to). The only reason that Mike, Bonnie, and Arvo tried to escape is because of Kenny. Think about it, what if Kenny was able to restrain himself from beating Arvo, instead of hurting him time after time; What if Kenny had not said things like "I fixed the truck, so I decide where to go" and actually calm down and discuss the matter with the other group members. Had Kenny really got a hold of himself, do you think that those three would still try to escape and get away from him? Of course it pains us to see that Clementine gets shot by Arvo, but let's take a minute and think about it from Arvo's perspective: The plan of escaping from Kenny is working, soon he will be away from that man filled with madness. Suddenly, this little girl shows up and becomes an obstacle in his way of getting away. To fire the gun is very foolish by Arvo, but his hatred for Kenny and the desperation to get away from him is probably much greater than the nice things Clementine had done or said to him. So Kenny is not right about anything other than Wellington(which we don't even know if it's a good place yet). In fact, a large part of all these is caused by him.
Contrary to what you said, Kenny is in fact aggressive to people who means no harm to him. Look at how he shouted and got mad to Clementine about Sarita's death, hurting her feelings. There are also many times where he just snaps to Clementine and other people when they have a little disagreement with him(and that is also why people are afraid of Kenny). Also look at how aggressive Kenny is to Lee on the train back in season 1 and various other moments when there is just a little difference in course of action between them.
Finally, I also have something to say about your opinions on Jane. First of all, she is not altogether selfish, since she does drop down to try to save Sarah if you tell her to. I am not sure if it is because you really failed to see Jane caring for Clementine or was it that you simply did not mention it. But it is quite clear that Jane changed. Every time when Janes sees Clementine, there is a smile on her face. Jane even says that Clementine is 90% of why she comes back to the group. You also writes that Jane always abandons people, but she could have easily left this broken group when Clementine gets shot and the other three are running away. Obviously it is because that Jane cares very much about Clementine, and wants to stay and protect her from Kenny whom she thinks is very dangerous. One can even argue that Jane's attempt to lie about the baby is also a way for Clementine to see how unstable and dangerous Kenny is.
In the end, the game is not black and white, and we judge the story and its character in our own ways. So there is not a thing such as “this character is better than the other one" or "this is the best ending out of all others"
I can respect your opinions because you present them well. I was just getting a lot of "OMG you let Kenny kill Jane? Dafuq is wrong wit u?" and I decided to explain my perspectives. Yours seem perfectly reasonable to me. I never hated Jane in my playthrough, I tried to stop the fight I didnt want either of them to die. But when it came down to having to shoot Kenny, to save Jane I just couldn't do it for all the reasons I have already mentioned. I simply saw the fight as Jane's fault, and viewed Kenny as a more reliable gaurdian. Jane had to be coaxed to help others. Kenny didn't have that problem but he had anger issues and screamed a lot. He was not violent towards innocent people though. Just bossy and that is not a crime to me. I guess I am perhaps a little more sympathetic towards Kenny, being a father myself I can understand what he was going through losing so many loved ones. Underneath all the pain he had the best interest of Clem and AJ and the ending proves that. He was deeply flawed but so was Jane. Jane was working on her problems though, but then she made a mistake that got her killed provoking a man into a fight for no good reason. You say it was to prove something the clementine and not to kill Kenny? Well instead of of drawing her knife and slashing Kenny across the torso maybe she should have confessed that the baby was alive and say see hes unstable.... but no she didnt just want to prove her point. She wanted to prove her point AND kill him. Imagine how bad she would look to both of them if she admitted she left the baby alone in some car where walkers could have gotten it. Or if she died and the baby hadnt screamed then what? Kenny never would have let her stay so she had to kill him. Bottom line for me is she asked for that fight, and she got more than she bargained for. I was not gonna blame Kenny for ending a fight she manipulatively started. So I agree Jane was not some evil monster, but she made a really bad decision and it cost her her life. You cant expect a 10 year old gear to shoot her friend to bail you out of your own mistake. I did what i could to stop the fight short of shooting somebody. When she died i basically just said..... "Well..... that just happened. Damn that sucks!".
I disagree with you more about the others in the group. Arvo deserved to die for attacking the group he was too dangerous to be trusted. Granted, maybe he was mad about Jane taking his gun and being mean to him, but that doesnt mean you ambush the entire group for the actions of one person who wasn't even with the group at the time. He could have get everyone in the group killed and he DID get everybody in his group killed including his own sister. He was just as guilty as the others who died attacking our group and should have received the same fate. Mike and Bonnie are just turncoat traitors who I have no respect for. I would not kill them for wanting to leave the group, or even stealing all the supplies, but for giving arvo a gun and letting him shoot Clem, then just running instead of helping her. They are just as guilty in my book. And according to current law as well, it doesnt matter who pulls the trigger in a robbery everybody involved faces charges of murder or attempted murder not just the gunman. Seriously though, if they wanted to leave id say give them supplies and send them on their way. Hell even take Arvo if you trust him that much no point killing him now. But what gets me is that Bonnie and Mike didnt just leave they stole every single ounce of food from Clem and AJ and Kenny. That is just messed up.
I respect your opinions about Kenny, but we all have different views on this game. Here are my thoughts on this matter:
You talked about … moreJane trying to use the baby to get Kenny provoked and thus kill him. I agree that the plan is stupid, but I don't think Jane went as far as wanting to kill Kenny. She only wanted Clementine to see how truly unstable Kenny is. You should note that Jane put her already drawn knife back to her knife pocket after Kenny is provoked, a proof that she only wanted Kenny to expose his instability. In the end, it was also Kenny that first attacked Jane.
You state that Kenny is selfless and had Clementine and the baby on his agenda. I am afraid that I have to disagree with you strongly on this point. If Kenny only has Clementine and the baby on his mind but not the rest of the group, then that is pretty selfish in my opinion. I should also point out that other members of the group(except for Jane)has the best int… [view original content]
Nice to find someone with the same views. We are twins! ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Kenny, he's just one of those characters who will be with you, almost to the end. Forever Kenny and Clementine.
I see and understand what you think about the others in the group.
I still believe that Jane did not set out to kill Kenny, but the situation just escalated out of control and she couldn't control the rage inside her anymore.
Yeah Bonnie and Mike taking all the supply was pretty messed up. Didn't think they would perform such a selfish act judging by their previous actions in the group.
I can respect your opinions because you present them well. I was just getting a lot of "OMG you let Kenny kill Jane? Dafuq is wrong wit u?" … moreand I decided to explain my perspectives. Yours seem perfectly reasonable to me. I never hated Jane in my playthrough, I tried to stop the fight I didnt want either of them to die. But when it came down to having to shoot Kenny, to save Jane I just couldn't do it for all the reasons I have already mentioned. I simply saw the fight as Jane's fault, and viewed Kenny as a more reliable gaurdian. Jane had to be coaxed to help others. Kenny didn't have that problem but he had anger issues and screamed a lot. He was not violent towards innocent people though. Just bossy and that is not a crime to me. I guess I am perhaps a little more sympathetic towards Kenny, being a father myself I can understand what he was going through losing so many loved ones. Underneath all the pain he had the best interest of Clem and… [view original content]
Yeah I got to say if I could send 50 likes to you at once I would. Said everything I thought about the whole Jane/Kenny situation. It's as t… morehough Tell-Tale needed a deception element and used Jane as the deceiver in the game to trick players into making the not so great ultimate choice of this game's season and if you choose the pretty much worse choice of the 3 you get a kind of a lame, weird crappish ending with Jane and that weirdo family whom look every bit of suspicious.
Kind of like Jesus and Satan-(which means the deceiver). If you choose Kenny/Christ you get to the heavenly gates of Wellington and if You choose Jane/Devil. You get the hellishly unsatisfying ending by going back to the hell hole you suffered at by the hands of the tryannical Carver which I'm sure has plenty of bad memories and to be stuck alone with the baby, the lone wolf ditching Jane and an odd ball Man woman and kid who might eventually try to takeover or kill y… [view original content]
Nah, I know. I'm the same way when discussing Kenny.
It's just that, like you said, he happened to be right about most of these people.
… more This obviously depends on how you see it, though. Some people will say that Jane wasn't selfish and that Arvo was just scared. In my opinion, he was spot on 85% of the time.
For the record, Luke was right about Mike, too. And to think most people went off on him when he said that.
Things Kenny got wrong:
* You don't shoot at hostage takers when they outnumber and outgun you. See: Walter getting executed.
* If you… more're restrained in the back of a truck being driven by armed guards to a place with more armed guards removing your restraints with the intent of attacking them is incredibly stupid. See: 1.
* Kenny was wrong about the supplies.
You have a strange definition for "right about everything."
I read it and it's unconvincing. You're under the false impression that it was simple hindsight.
Think about it this way - you watch four armed gunmen take your family into your house - three of them are aiming guns at your family and one is looking out the window for cops. Do you shoot the person at the window? If your answer is anything other than 'no' you need to reexamine your thought process on the matter.
I didn't know what would happen if Clementine surrendered - but I surrendered. People might be killed even if you surrender but it's obvious that people will die if you don't.
Comments
I think your responses would be better received if they weren't so overtly religious. The best way to get your messages across is to let you points stand on their own legs without inserting so much religious fluff. You end up turning more people away like that Ladariel. I am not saying I disagree with you just that you should make your points without relying on religion so much because it weakens your arguments. By the way I say this as a believer myself but I have learned that the weakest argument in the world is "because God said so!"
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Right and I said we can only theorize about whats beyond those walls. But from what we have seen it appears to be more like a Alexandria community than a Wood-bury or Terminus community (most likely). If Wellington was bad or a cannibal society they would have let all three of them in to either kill them for occult or give them the Mark and Dale (from the comics) treatment to cook and eat them for a feast. And as for the rest you have your theories and I have mine.
"Because God said so!" is basically that's the argument someone makes when they don't actually have an argument.
Ah see this is exactly what i mean ladariel. This is why you shouldnt make your arguments using religion because you will get countered like this. Saw this right after I responded to Ladariel.
I am new to these forums I just joined today so I apologize if I was out of line. I was not sure what the guidelines were, and how strictly it was moderated / enforced. I am aware now though and I will be careful. Thanks for the warning.
I was presenting counter arguments to your analogies, not my personal "theories" ("theory" is an often misused word). As far as I'm concerned all of the endings are valid. I wouldn't make any religious interpretations. Ultimately the fate of the characters is unknown - with the exception of the determinant characters that were killed.
I personally see the Jane, AJ, Family ending as being cautiously optimistic. Sure the family is unknown, possibly dangerous, but Clementine and Jane are obviously prepared to defend themselves if they need to.
Don't worry, that wasn't directed towards you - that was a general warning.
Long before this thread, people here have had problems with personally insulting other users for their opinions of fictional characters. This isn't anything new.
Also, welcome to the forums!
"ps. People just dont like to hear that their pick was based more on emotions rather than logic and rationality."
I was not trying to make you feel like Jane was the emotional pick and not based on logic, but that is simply what it was. Point after point just made me not trust Jane. Even though she was much nicer and easier to be around than Kenny with all his yelling, I had to realize its not about emotions and the plan was more important. My priority was to get Clem and AJ to safety and that was also Kenny's plan. So no matter how unpleasant he was sometimes I had to look past emotions and see that he had a the best logical plan. Unfortunately, Jane didn't really have a plan(as Kenny pointed out in the car fight) "just play it be ear". Clem even said that doesn't sound like a good plan for the baby but Jane just wanted to go south. So in the end when i saw Kenny with the knife on top of Janes chest I had to make a decision. Shoot Kenny who is not so fun be around as Jane, but has a better plan. Or let Kenny kill Jane who was really starting to develop a nice friendship with Clem? In the end, I decided emotions i had for Jane were not worth killing Kenny over. Despite Kenny being a ROUGH MAN which may offend people who are very emotional, I had to side with him because he always had Clem and AJ best interest as his priority. So it was a purely logic and rationality for me.
Sorry If you didnt like to hear that Jane was the more emotional pick rhough.
So you are implying that being around violent and reckless man who makes hasty decisions, which usually cause problems, is more safer for Clem than someone like Jane? My priority is the survival of Clementine. Kenny was a threat to that with his behaviour.
Wow Zykelator, Your not really doing a good job of promoting what your believe in. Why would anybody want to have your values and believe life is meaningless and random if in the end it just leads to a depressed person who wants to kill themselves. I hope you get help man but please keep that stuff to yourself your derailing this topic which is supposed to be about TWD season 2.
Wow, almost the same name and basically the same views. We gotta' be related some how...
No i am implying that Jane was the emotional choice because she was a cool friend, whereas Kenny was the more logical choice because even though he was rough and abrasive he had a better plan. I knew Kenny would never abandon me, with Jane you never knew if she would just leave you or let you die in some risky situation. It was not emotional at all. My emotions told me Kenny was scary (when he blamed Clem for Sarita's death it really offended me and I think it hurt Clem's feelings). However, logic told me to look past the emotions and realize that Kenny was in a lot of pain after the death of Sarita and he just needed to vent his anger out and get it off his chest. It is not healthy to keep that stuff inside right? So i forgave him and he apologized for that at the transformer campfire in episode 5. I didn't let the emotions blind me from the fact that Kenny has always wanted to get Clem and AJ to safety and the ending proves Kenny would sacrifice his own life to get them both into Wellington. So choosing Kenny was NOT the emotionally pleasing choice, it was based on knowing I would have a better outcome and chance of survival with Kenny. Say what u want about Kenny and his anger but through the entire TWD seasons 1 and 2 he never once lifted a finger against Clem or even hinted that he would be capable of hurting Clem. However anybody who dared to mess with Clem and now AJ too, or mess with his plan to get them to what he thought was the best chance of a safety, well those people better watch out. Carver, Arvo, and sadly Jane found that out the hard way. Kenny was getting his kids to wellington and nobody was gonna stop him till he accomplished that mission. That is why i always stuck by him.
P.S. I never said anything about MORE SAFER.... LoL. That was a different post.
Hello third bait thread I found today.
Kenny's a pretty flawed character. He's been wrong about a LOT of things throughout the game.
I personally see the Jane, AJ, Family ending as being cautiously optimistic. Sure the family is unknown, possibly dangerous, but Clementine and Jane are obviously prepared to defend themselves if they need to.
I agree that the Jane endings are pretty open to interpretation. They did a good job with that in the way they can be interpreted either way. Any family that has survived would have a gun. Doesnt mean they are bad. And Clem noticing it is just being cautious.
I just think the Kenny ending are superior, both in emotional impact, and in the overall outcome. If Clem was your kid would you rather she be in a place like wellington where all the families are screened for you and walls keep the walkers at bay? Or would you rather she was scavenging the wilderness with Jane and vulnerable to all those dangers herself? If you are equally optimistic about Wellington it is far superior to life with Jane, for both Clem and the baby.
having watched walking dead on TV though i have to admit that Terminus was still fresh in my mind and that is why I chose not to enter Wellington without Kenny. You never know what kinda crazy stuff happens in the ZA. But they seemed nice with the giving out supplies so be optimistic I say.
A cool friend? She was more stable person than Kenny. She didnt get emotional outbursts where she hates everyone and gets violent at anything, living or dead. Kennys plan to find Wellington was stupid (You have no factual evidence of its existance).
Jane shows that she truly cares about Clementine and she even risks her life at the lake/river, when Clementine falls through the ice. Once inside the house, Kenny was busy releasing this anger you talk about at Arvo and was completely ignoring Clementine, who was freezing to death. This is the reason its not wise to be around people who can be so blinded by rage, that they ignore even the people they care about.
It's not about which ending is more emotional or which ending is preferable. I made all of the decisions that I felt were right. The ending I got is less important than the decisions I made to get it.
"A cool friend? She was more stable person than Kenny. She didnt get emotional outbursts where she hates everyone and gets violent at anything, living or dead."
Please explain to me because I must have played a different game than you. I must have missed these parts where Kenny hates everyone and gets violent at anything living or dead. So how many people did Kenny get violent on besides Carver, Arvo, and Jane? How many times did he smack Bonnie around, and punch Mike, or Luke, or Walter, or Sarita, or Rebecca, or Clementine, or AJ, or Nick, or Sarah, or Carlos? When did he tell any of them he hates them? Granted things got a little heated with bonnie and mike at the end but he never said he HATES THEM, he just didnt understand why they were against the plan to go north and find wellington. As soon as you give me evidence of Kenny spewing hate or violence at anybody besides Carver, Arvo, and Jane I will concede this point to you. But since there is zero proof you cant use that as a point. Yes he yells a lot and im sorry if that hurt your feelings but he was on a mission. And if your mad that he beat a walker with a crowbar.... ummm your playing the wrong game.
Oh i did the same thing, but upon learning about the other endings I was curious to see how many people fell for Janes trick and actually killed Kenny. OMG YOU KILLED KENNY! Then i wanted to talk about the other endings.
I strongly suspected the baby was alive and that she hid him. I could tell by her emotional state and her behavior. I agreed with her 95% of the time. I shot Kenny because he was about to stab somebody over a false assumption of guilt. You don't get to just kill somebody because you think they might have done something.
Yes well I let Kenny kill her because it was obvious to me she was trying to manipulate Clem. Making Kenny into a "bad guy" to Clem so that Jane could kill him and take Clem for herself. Yes he attacked her first but only after she played the worst joke in the world on him. The good old "haha i killed your baby" joke. Haha that trick is so funny it SLAYS everytime! Of course Jane knew that Kenny would flip out and attack her (given her background with the baby) and she knew that she could then kill him with her knife and claim self defense. What she didnt plan on was the first thing Kenny did when she went for her knife was he grabbed her arm and pinned it to her hip. Second of all it makes no sense that you she just lost the baby with no fight when even Kenny and Clem made it to the rest stop with no resistance. Kenny saw right through her lie that it was an accident he knew that Jane had done something to that baby and he was right. Jane is the one who made the fight lethal by provoking Kenny to rage and then trying to kill him with her knife. If you watch the fight again Kenny never said Im gonna kill you until she slashed him with the knife. Not to mention she could have just said the baby was alive to end it all but then she would have looked completely stupid and manipulative so she chose to play it out and try to kill kenny.
Paint it however you like to make Kenny the good guy in all of this. The fact is that Kenny tried to murder somebody over an assumption. If you can just write that off because you think he had every right to react the way he did, fine. Don't pretend it was moral. Don't pretend it was reasonable. Just admit that you chose him because you saw him as a friend and stop trying to make Jane out to be some monster because you didn't like her.
You watched your friend murder somebody who didn't deserve to die - it's as simple as that.
No I am saying she didnt even want to go down and help Sarah when she fell off the deck when it collapsed. She said something like "theres no way shes getting out of that alive". And she was wrong. Jane almost saved her until that board hit her in the head. I don't blame her for not saving Sarah, I blame her for only trying if she thinks she will lose face with Clem who she obviously wants to be her protege.
Welcome to the forums friend! It's just that A LOT of people are pretty sore about the whole Jane v. Kenny thing, and it's gotten pretty intense.
I did like her though. I thought Clem was getting through to her and making her a better person. If I had it my way she would have just helped Kenny get AJ and Clem to Wellington and they would then who knows. But no she had to use the baby to manipulate the fight because she wanted Clem to herself and hated Kenny. I really wish she didn't have to die but that was seriously a dangerous game she played with Kenny and she lost. You just dont do that sort of thing to man who lost his entire family and is so protective of that baby!
Jane wasn't a monster to me, she just had some issues to work out, same as Kenny did with his anger and all the yelling. She saved and helped the group many times, and i really enjoyed the moments where she is bonding with Clem. I thought the whole ordeal between her and Kenny was just tragic. Lets just agree to disagree. I respect your right to feel like you were saving Jane from a murderer as long as your respect my right to say Jane caused the whole confrontation and got herself killed.
I respect your opinions about Kenny, but we all have different views on this game. Here are my thoughts on this matter:
You talked about Jane trying to use the baby to get Kenny provoked and thus kill him. I agree that the plan is stupid, but I don't think Jane went as far as wanting to kill Kenny. She only wanted Clementine to see how truly unstable Kenny is. You should note that Jane put her already drawn knife back to her knife pocket after Kenny is provoked, a proof that she only wanted Kenny to expose his instability. In the end, it was also Kenny that first attacked Jane.
You state that Kenny is selfless and had Clementine and the baby on his agenda. I am afraid that I have to disagree with you strongly on this point. If Kenny only has Clementine and the baby on his mind but not the rest of the group, then that is pretty selfish in my opinion. I should also point out that other members of the group(except for Jane)has the best interest for everyone(I will not list an example for everyone because that will take far too long. I can do it if you want me to). The only reason that Mike, Bonnie, and Arvo tried to escape is because of Kenny. Think about it, what if Kenny was able to restrain himself from beating Arvo, instead of hurting him time after time; What if Kenny had not said things like "I fixed the truck, so I decide where to go" and actually calm down and discuss the matter with the other group members. Had Kenny really got a hold of himself, do you think that those three would still try to escape and get away from him? Of course it pains us to see that Clementine gets shot by Arvo, but let's take a minute and think about it from Arvo's perspective: The plan of escaping from Kenny is working, soon he will be away from that man filled with madness. Suddenly, this little girl shows up and becomes an obstacle in his way of getting away. To fire the gun is very foolish by Arvo, but his hatred for Kenny and the desperation to get away from him is probably much greater than the nice things Clementine had done or said to him. So Kenny is not right about anything other than Wellington(which we don't even know if it's a good place yet). In fact, a large part of all these is caused by him.
Contrary to what you said, Kenny is in fact aggressive to people who means no harm to him. Look at how he shouted and got mad to Clementine about Sarita's death, hurting her feelings. There are also many times where he just snaps to Clementine and other people when they have a little disagreement with him(and that is also why people are afraid of Kenny). Also look at how aggressive Kenny is to Lee on the train back in season 1 and various other moments when there is just a little difference in course of action between them.
Finally, I also have something to say about your opinions on Jane. First of all, she is not altogether selfish, since she does drop down to try to save Sarah if you tell her to. I am not sure if it is because you really failed to see Jane caring for Clementine or was it that you simply did not mention it. But it is quite clear that Jane changed. Every time when Janes sees Clementine, there is a smile on her face. Jane even says that Clementine is 90% of why she comes back to the group. You also writes that Jane always abandons people, but she could have easily left this broken group when Clementine gets shot and the other three are running away. Obviously it is because that Jane cares very much about Clementine, and wants to stay and protect her from Kenny whom she thinks is very dangerous. One can even argue that Jane's attempt to lie about the baby is also a way for Clementine to see how unstable and dangerous Kenny is.
In the end, the game is not black and white, and we judge the story and its character in our own ways. So there is not a thing such as “this character is better than the other one" or "this is the best ending out of all others"
I can respect your opinions because you present them well. I was just getting a lot of "OMG you let Kenny kill Jane? Dafuq is wrong wit u?" and I decided to explain my perspectives. Yours seem perfectly reasonable to me. I never hated Jane in my playthrough, I tried to stop the fight I didnt want either of them to die. But when it came down to having to shoot Kenny, to save Jane I just couldn't do it for all the reasons I have already mentioned. I simply saw the fight as Jane's fault, and viewed Kenny as a more reliable gaurdian. Jane had to be coaxed to help others. Kenny didn't have that problem but he had anger issues and screamed a lot. He was not violent towards innocent people though. Just bossy and that is not a crime to me. I guess I am perhaps a little more sympathetic towards Kenny, being a father myself I can understand what he was going through losing so many loved ones. Underneath all the pain he had the best interest of Clem and AJ and the ending proves that. He was deeply flawed but so was Jane. Jane was working on her problems though, but then she made a mistake that got her killed provoking a man into a fight for no good reason. You say it was to prove something the clementine and not to kill Kenny? Well instead of of drawing her knife and slashing Kenny across the torso maybe she should have confessed that the baby was alive and say see hes unstable.... but no she didnt just want to prove her point. She wanted to prove her point AND kill him. Imagine how bad she would look to both of them if she admitted she left the baby alone in some car where walkers could have gotten it. Or if she died and the baby hadnt screamed then what? Kenny never would have let her stay so she had to kill him. Bottom line for me is she asked for that fight, and she got more than she bargained for. I was not gonna blame Kenny for ending a fight she manipulatively started. So I agree Jane was not some evil monster, but she made a really bad decision and it cost her her life. You cant expect a 10 year old gear to shoot her friend to bail you out of your own mistake. I did what i could to stop the fight short of shooting somebody. When she died i basically just said..... "Well..... that just happened. Damn that sucks!".
I disagree with you more about the others in the group. Arvo deserved to die for attacking the group he was too dangerous to be trusted. Granted, maybe he was mad about Jane taking his gun and being mean to him, but that doesnt mean you ambush the entire group for the actions of one person who wasn't even with the group at the time. He could have get everyone in the group killed and he DID get everybody in his group killed including his own sister. He was just as guilty as the others who died attacking our group and should have received the same fate. Mike and Bonnie are just turncoat traitors who I have no respect for. I would not kill them for wanting to leave the group, or even stealing all the supplies, but for giving arvo a gun and letting him shoot Clem, then just running instead of helping her. They are just as guilty in my book. And according to current law as well, it doesnt matter who pulls the trigger in a robbery everybody involved faces charges of murder or attempted murder not just the gunman. Seriously though, if they wanted to leave id say give them supplies and send them on their way. Hell even take Arvo if you trust him that much no point killing him now. But what gets me is that Bonnie and Mike didnt just leave they stole every single ounce of food from Clem and AJ and Kenny. That is just messed up.
Hahaha, lol.
I Like You! (:
Nice to find someone with the same views. We are twins!
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Kenny, he's just one of those characters who will be with you, almost to the end.
Forever Kenny and Clementine.
I see and understand what you think about the others in the group.
I still believe that Jane did not set out to kill Kenny, but the situation just escalated out of control and she couldn't control the rage inside her anymore.
Yeah Bonnie and Mike taking all the supply was pretty messed up. Didn't think they would perform such a selfish act judging by their previous actions in the group.
This is why they gave Kenny a Jesus beard and Jane had Devil red highlights in her hair.
Whether he was right or not I still shot him.
shrug
this fucking carver take alot of likes why i don t
lol
https://www.telltalegames.com/community/discussion/79957/this-needs-to-be-said-kenny
Explanation for the hostage incident in there somewhere.
you obviously don't know me
seriously and my name in one sentence ...
NO see I was joking about you taking me seriously!
Am I doing this right?
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I read it and it's unconvincing. You're under the false impression that it was simple hindsight.
Think about it this way - you watch four armed gunmen take your family into your house - three of them are aiming guns at your family and one is looking out the window for cops. Do you shoot the person at the window? If your answer is anything other than 'no' you need to reexamine your thought process on the matter.
I didn't know what would happen if Clementine surrendered - but I surrendered. People might be killed even if you surrender but it's obvious that people will die if you don't.
XD Thank You So Much!